Rick Green: Welcome back to At the Core with Walker Wildmon and Rick Green. Thanks for joining me today. We've got a couple of good interviews for you. It's a little bit different than an interview because this is a program I want to share with you that I recorded just a couple of days ago with my very good friend Mark Meckler from over at Convention of States and David and Tim Barton. So it aired on WallBuilders just a few days ago. And the reason I'm re-airing the interview portion of it, which I do that quite often, I grab interviews with people that I just get blessed to get to talk to. And we air them both on the WallBuilders program and here on At the Core because it's just too good of an interview for not to have both audiences get a chance to hear it. Anyway, but I don't usually do this. Maybe once or twice a year, there'll be an entire interview on WallBuilders and include David and Tim in that interview. And it's a topic that we just really need to get out there. And with Mark Meckler running Convention of States and we had made some offhanded remarks on one of our WallBuilders programs about convention and how it works, whether or not there could be a runaway convention, what, how to limit the call for the convention to be able to do amendments to the Constitution, but only the specific amendments that the legislatures want to be considered, get considered and nothing else, that whole topic. And so anyway, I think this is gonna be really educational. I think you're gonna enjoy this. And I think you'll learn a lot. Please send in your questions if you got questions about it and I'll do another program on it where we can actually take calls and get some feedback and talk about it more. In this case, we're just going to have a chance to hear the interview that I did with David and Tim Barton and Mark Meckler just a couple of days ago. Let's jump in.
Rick Green: Had a great program last Thursday on our Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Got to get a lot of great questions from the audience, sometimes on topics that we know nothing about and go do a lot of homework on, sometimes on topics that we've talked about a lot and are experts on, sometimes on a topic I thought I was an expert on and then I learned something and then sometimes it's, well, rarely it's a topic we actually disagree with here on the program which anytime anybody wants to be incendiary and light up the WallBuilders program, throw in a question about term limits so that we can have some fun debate here between David and Tim and myself.
Rick Green: But that's not our topic to do. Tim, no, do you wanna go down the road of term limits?
Tim Barton: No, I was just joking because one of the things that periodically as we're doing research and we find things and we will point it out to somebody every now and then we'll find a correction for somebody else on here. So, you know, I find something for my dad or Rick, find something for me and my dad, Dad, you find something for me and Rick and so every now and then we find something where like, oh, okay, I don't remember that, I hadn't seen that and I was chuckling because every now and then when I'm with my dad and we're doing something together, we're speaking at a conference, usually we're going different directions but sometimes we're together and I chuckle because my dad's been doing this for 40 years. I've been doing this not even 20 years yet. Now, I grew up in and around it, but I joke because every now and then I'll find something like, hey, Dad, actually, I think it's this. You said, you know, this way, I think it's probably where I heard it this way and I always chuckle and I tell him, I said, no, look, it's not a big deal. You have more to remember. I don't know as many stories yet. So, the stories I know I know a little better. You've learned way more stories so I see how it comes together.
Tim Barton: All that to say, sometimes we have a difference of opinion, like maybe the application of a constitutional issue or a strategic kind of operational thing and sometimes we say something that we maybe forgot some of that context or issue and sometimes, honestly, because we do a radio show every day, we say stuff sometimes and we will finish the program and we'll be like, hey, did you mean to say this and you're like, I didn't say that. I'm like, no, you actually said that. That's literally what, you know, I don't think so. When you talk enough, sometimes it's clear in your head and it doesn't always come out really clear through the microphone and I'm gonna blame the microphone now. It's not that I said the wrong words, the microphone messed it up, but apparently this happened a little bit last week where we had some questions in conversation and hey, did you mean to say it this way? Because I don't think that's right or did you guys know about this?
Tim Barton: And so yeah, our buddy Mark Meckler reached out and said, hey, have you guys read this? Have you seen this? And Rick, that was the interesting part because you and I talked for a while and you were like, I don't think I've ever read it. Like I should have known and seen this. I've never read this and I had absolutely never read it. But you were like, I thought I knew this so well. I'd never seen this. And it was something that having this new information was really informative that it hasn't changed our overall position, but it's added clarity to the position of what we thought we knew that actually might not have been totally correct. We have way more clarity now which of course our buddy Mark helped provide for us.
Rick Green: Well, before you guys go there, I'm gonna do a fake mea culpa. And the fake mea culpa is you guys told me on the program, something I said. I said there was no way I said that and went back and played it and I was wrong, but I think you guys edited the tape before you played it to make you look wrong. I think I actually said it right and you guys said I said it wrong.
Rick Green: So that's my fake mea culpa. So I got called saying something I didn't think I said, but I actually said what you guys said, but I still think you're wrong because I know when I had my brain it just didn't come out of my mouth.
David Barton: Well, I'm gonna go one step further. I think I have, I think I was wrong on an issue. Now this happened once back in the 80s. So it's not the first time I was wrong. It did happen a really long time. No, seriously, happens all the time. But on a topic that I thought I was really, like you said, Tim, really well schooled on and I've talked about for 15, 20 years now and we've got all over our videos. But this particular area of the topic I've kind of always dismissed because it never bothered me.
David Barton: And of course we're talking about Convention of States which we had a question last week about whether or not you can have a limited call. In other words, the states can say only talk about these subjects and then be held to that once they get together in convention. And I've always kind of blown that off because I'm like, eh, you still gotta go back to 38 states and get it ratified. So if they go out of bounds, the states that sent them there are gonna say, no, you were out of bounds. We're not gonna ratify that amendment. So I've always kind of blown it off, but it is really important to a lot of people. They wanna make sure that it's a limited call. And so after we kind of, I kind of blew it off last week when the question was asked and we, you know, found out, whoa, wait a minute. And by the way, I kind of blew it last week. I didn't blow it off, I kind of blew it last week. I was like, well, we've asked Mark to come and educate us a little bit because he sent me several documents that I never read, the Department of Justice papers, Ed Meese, you know, I've always looked at the Constitution guide that the Heritage Foundation did years ago, our Constitution guide that Heritage Foundation did years ago that Ed Meese was the editor of, has always been like my main go-to in addition to the Federalist papers. And I actually use it when I'm standing there doing Constitution Alive in Independence Hall, teaching the Constitution. I can't believe I never read this document that was produced by that DOJ. And then Mike Farris, our good friend, had a complete article in the Harvard Law Review that also covers this topic. So I went to school over the last three or four days after talking to Mark on the phone and him sending me these things. And I learned so much that I didn't know about limited calls for a convention.
David Barton: And, Mark, thank you for coming on WallBuilders again. And thank you for sending me those documents. Really appreciate the homework assignment and me not getting any rest this weekend and having to read these 50 page documents. No, I didn't even get through all the way. I learned so much even in just the first part of each of them. But hey, man, thanks for coming back on the program.
Mark Meckler: Oh, I'm glad to be here. You know, I got the five-alarm fire. I heard the bells go off and people started calling me and saying, hey, we're listening to WallBuilders and they said all this stuff. And honestly, my first reaction was no way. They didn't say any of that stuff. Like I'll listen and we'll see if they said, I know they wouldn't say that stuff. And so then I listen, I'm like, okay, now I'm confused because this doesn't make sense to me. And that's when I reached out to Rick. And just so you know, David, Rick just said, no, David didn't say that. I'm quite certain.
Mark Meckler: And by the way, just so you guys know the context, there was a question about 1787 that David brought up. It's actually kind of, there was a question about limited conventions brought up the 1787 convention. And just said, I think that it was almost a throwaway line by David. It was like you meant to say something different. And you said, yeah, they went there to amend the Articles of Confederation. And then they just said, yeah, we'll do something else. And I almost expected you to say something like, that's what people say, but that's not true. And it's like your brain just skipped ahead. You were just thinking too fast. And you just thought on the next thing.
Mark Meckler: But the funniest part was just so you know, Rick was absolutely certain you didn't say what I had listened to you say. I actually had to get the transcript from your show and I cut and pasted the transcript to Rick. And he's like, oh, yeah, he definitely said that.
Mark Meckler: I told both of these guys, I didn't say what they accused me of saying or what you told them that I said, there's no way. That's not what I said. So I was right. Rick and I both voted. So we outvoted you guys. So it's two to one. I was right all along.
Mark Meckler: Well, let's start by clarifying that. I mean, because it really wasn't the main substance of the thing, it was almost a throwaway line by David because what we're really talking about is can the convention be limited? But I want to just clarify the first point because I think it's really important because I hear from folks who oppose Convention of States all the time and they say something that offends me. And it doesn't offend me personally, it offends me because it's really a slander on the framers of our Constitution, these incredible geniuses that were there and that drafted this thing. And what people say is, well, they got sent only to amend the Articles of Confederation and then there was a runaway convention. They just decided, nah, we're gonna do whatever we wanna do. I find that offensive in a lot of ways and I also find it, it's not true, flies in the face of history. So I want to address that first. I mean, the very first thing I want to say about that is if you revere the framers, like most of us do, I mean, they were humans, they're not perfect, but if you believe that they were men of honor and for the most part, they were men of great honor, they held honor in such high esteem that they would duel over honor. Let's remember that. They would kill each other over slights to their honor. The idea that they would gather in a convention that they would have instructions from their states and then that they would all, including George Washington, who is the president of the convention, I'll just decide, no, that doesn't matter what we said we were gonna do, we're gonna do whatever we want. That just flies in the face of what we know about the framers and of what we know about people of the time.
David Barton: Yeah, it's such a good point, Mark, because thinking about George Washington, George Washington spent over 40 years not doing what he wanted to do. All right, like all he wanted to do was be a farmer at Mount Vernon. He didn't wanna do all the service to the nation, but one of the things the founding fathers believed is if you were called to serve, you had a duty of responsibility. It was selfish to say no. And so it's such a good point, this idea that they went there and they created a runaway convention. They did what they wanted to do and then they were gonna try to impose that on the state. It's a really bad look on their character and Mark to your point.
Tim Barton: What's so important about this and Rick even backing up, you know, one of the things that we had not been overly concerned with was that an Article V Convention could be a limited convention. The reason we were concerned with it is because we knew a runaway convention is not a real fear, but Mark to your point, there are some people that adamantly oppose an Article V Convention of States because they say no, it's a runaway convention. We don't wanna lose the Constitution. And of course, like again, the reason that's not a concern in our mind is because we know if you have to get whatever's done approved by 38 states, it's not a runaway convention. If 38 states approve it, that's more a reflection of we the people. Number one, I mean, like you can go down a long list of why this fear is kind of irrational, but backing up Mark to your point is that the irrational fear is far more irrational than most people even realize. People think, no, this is a rational fear. No, it's really not because that's not what the Constitutional Convention was called for, number one.
Tim Barton: And number two, if you look historically and Rick, this is where when you called me about that piece from Ed Meese and about, and even like Farris, their explanation on how a Convention of States call has to be limited and it has to operate inside those bounds, I didn't realize how much clarity was there and I never paid attention to it because it wasn't a concern I had, but Mark backing up to your point, there's a lot of people, and I would say honestly, the really good-hearted people that love the Founding Fathers, that love the Constitution, that oppose Article V, it's because of this fear that the convention wouldn't be limited, it would be runaway and it might threaten the Constitution, and Mark, as you shared with us and pointed out, that is a very improper historic perspective, not just that the fear I think is irrational and I'm not saying that's a slight to anybody that has that fear, I just don't think that's, it's like this idea that you're sitting in your bedroom at night on a sunny day and you're scared of being struck by lightning. Well, that's pretty irrational, right? Like there's not even a storm in the area, what are you concerned about? And that's not to try and downplay somebody that might have a genuine heart that loves America, that loves God, that loves the Founding Fathers and Constitution, but even more so, Mark, when you start explaining things that help somebody understand, wait a second, it's daylight outside, there's not a storm, I'm in my house, like I'm totally safe, this is a safe space.
Tim Barton: I think most people don't realize that there's a lot more safeguards around an Article V convention, Mark, that again, you helped kind of point out, so when you walk through, Mark, some of what you had emailed and shared with us, maybe some of this idea that some people might have been concerned that the original Constitutional Convention was a runaway convention and you pointed out it's not because it was part of the call.
Rick Green: Terrible time to interrupt and take a break, got to do it.
Rick Green: And then you got into even why we know that a modern call for a Convention of States would be limited based on things that we have seen from Department of Justice, from our good friend like Mike Farris, who was one of the guys running Alliance Defending Freedom, this huge constitutional law firm. Like these constitutional experts are pointing out, no, it would have to be limited. Will you walk us through some of that, Mark?
Mark Meckler: All right, well, let's start with 1787 and the framers because we'll clear their reputation. And the reason that people think, and I think this is important, you say, good-hearted people believe this, I think that's important. Most people believe 1787 was a quote-unquote runaway convention, or they were sent only to amend the articles until recently, until Rob Natelson looked at the original commissions. These are documents taken by each of these guys. You can actually go see them in the National Archives, taken by each of the people who went to convention. And if you look at those, what they read is, there's some version of this in the first six states that commissioned their delegates. It says, the delegate has any and all authority necessary to render the federal constitution adequate for the exigencies of the union. And it says any and all, there's no limitation. It doesn't even mention the articles of confederation. And so what happens is Virginia, as the first call, five states follow on their heels, use very similar language, Connecticut ends up using similar language. They give their delegates full authority, go do whatever you want.
Mark Meckler: Important side note, you guys talk about the language all the time, the language matters. In 1787, the country doesn't have a constitution. We have articles of confederation. And so when they say to render the federal constitution adequate, what they mean is the makeup of the government, the constitution of the government, the way it's set up. So they're saying go there and just fix it. There's another clue to this that we understand that we can see from history is if you go, the previous convention was the Annapolis Convention. It was called to deal with commercial matters. The states were struggling to do commercial business with each other. Only five states showed up for that. And the delegates to that convention understood they were just there to deal with commercial matters. They had a limited commission. They were given limited authority. And those delegates meet. And for two reasons they decide they can't do anything. One is they say, we only have five states. That's not enough. And then the second is they say, we don't have the authority. There's all these problems. We're struggling with all these things in the new country. There's way more we have to deal with than commercial stuff. So we need to tell the states that we need a more general convention.
Mark Meckler: And they're so worried, Tim, about the limitations on their authority and that they're gonna exceed those, that they actually debate like, can we even issue a recommendation for a broader convention? Like is that within our authority? Are we exceeding the scope of our authority here at this commercial convention? But they ultimately recommend that the states gather in convention for a broader constitutional convention, a full convention with plenary authority. That then is started by Virginia, quickly taken up by six states. Connecticut is the seventh state to issue the broader call. Two states actually limit the call. That's Massachusetts and New York. And the reason they limit the call, they don't like the idea of a convention in general. After the sixth state to call, Congress says, you know what? We think you're right. You should gather in convention. There's no power under the Articles of Confederation for Congress to call a convention. Zero, it's not mentioned. They don't have that power. Congress doesn't say they're calling a convention. They say in the language of their declaration, they're recommending, they never transmit to the states, like they have plenary authority. They just say, we recommend you guys get together. And they do use the words to amend the Articles of Confederation. Massachusetts and New York parrot that language. And the beautiful thing about the whole thing is it works perfectly. They gather in convention. You know who doesn't vote? Massachusetts and New York, because their delegations were limited by the authority that their states gave them or the limitations on the authority that they were given. And so everybody does exactly what they're supposed to do at convention. The convention is limited by the states that want to limit it. Their delegates can't do anything else. And the others are given full authority. So it's not a runaway convention. They did exactly what they were sent to do.
Mark Meckler: So that sets the foundation for all of this, in my opinion. So because, Tim, I'm going to tell you, David, every single time somebody tells me there's going to be a runaway convention, they tell me 1787 was a runaway convention. I'm going to make it my life's work to clear the reputation of the framers on that one.
Tim Barton: I love it.
Rick Green: Hey, let's take a quick break, Mark. When we come back, we'll talk about how to do a limited call right now and why that has prevented what we call, and I think the right word is aggregation of all of the different calls for all the different subjects. Otherwise, we would have already had a convention of states based on all of those calls being aggregated. It has to be a limited call, which is a new understanding for me after diving into all this over the last few days.
Rick Green: And of course, guys, there's been a lot of people call for a convention for all kinds of things. And one of the things I learned in the reading from the DOJ documents was that there was actually an apportionment amendment back in the 60s, which is not the apportionment amendment today. Very different from that one that says that we can make sure that the only citizens are counted in the census. But anyway, you've had lots of people call for a convention for lots of things well over the 34 states needed to do a resolution and call for it, but yet there hasn't been a convention. So clearly there does have to be a similar, or I guess exact call, Mark, that's what you've done, is now 20 states with an exact same call for the exact same subject matters.
Mark Meckler: Yeah, there's a legal concept called aggregation. And what that means is that in order for the calls to aggregate to the two thirds necessary, 34 necessary, they have to be almost identical. And I say almost because it's important the preamble to anybody's call, the whereas and the wherefore stuff, that language can be different. But once you get into what's the purpose of the convention, it has to be the same and it has to be limited. And there's a whole bunch of reasons we know this. First of all, it's not just Mark Meckler saying this, the DOJ has issued a lengthy opinion on this twice, once during the Carter administration, and then once the Ed Meese DOJ that you referenced. So these are reports that are widely available, they're very extensive, and they document the history of conventions in the United States of America and showing that you cannot get to convention unless the calls aggregate, meaning they're the same. We also know this from the long practice, and that is in the history of the United States of America, starting at the very beginning, there have been over 400 calls for convention. We've never seen 34 of them or whatever the number was necessary at the time based on two thirds of the states. We've never seen enough that are the same or that aggregate in order to get to convention. So a lot of people would say, well, it doesn't really matter what it says. If the states call for a convention, you can put them all together, just jumble them all together and you get to the 34 number. If that were the case, we'd have been in a convention many times in American history. Everybody knows and acknowledges, frankly, unless they're hallucinating, that you have to have them be the same. And so they haven't been the same throughout all of American history. We've never been to this magical two thirds or now 34 number that gets us to convention. Convention of States as an organization is working on this with 20 states that have passed applications that will absolutely aggregate.
Mark Meckler: And once they do that, if once you get to the 34 and you go to convention, if a state delegation offered amendments outside of the call, what do you think happens at that point?
Rick Green: Yeah, well, we've done a couple of these, we know how they work just generally speaking, but they work like a legislature. So Rick, I know you're an expert on how legislatures work. There'll be officers at the convention, there'll be a presiding officer, there'll be a parliamentarian, a secretary, all this stuff. And so somebody would raise their hand, for example, and say, well, we'd like to repeal the second amendment and somebody from a rational state would raise their hand and say, that's not germane to this convention because our convention is limited by the call and by the applications which all match and this is not within the call and they would be gaveled out of order. That's what would happen. And it happens in legislatures all the time, Rick, you've been in a legislature, we've all seen this in legislatures. People try to do crazy stuff all the time in legislatures and they get gaveled out of order because it's not germane to the discussion at hand.
Mark Meckler: And if the entire convention goes crazy because some, the Joker shows up and puts some gas in the air conditioning system and suddenly puts everybody in a trance and manages to pass some amendment that's completely outside the call, then what happens?
Rick Green: Yeah, so, you know, I love to walk through this with people. What happens then is-
Mark Meckler: Even though it's impossible.
Rick Green: Yeah, well, because I want people, people who are afraid and I agree with Tim, I think this is really important. People are afraid because they love the Constitution. Tim, you wanna jump in here?
Tim Barton: Well, yeah, I was gonna say, you know, one of the things too, Mark, that you are very gracious in doing and, you know, sometimes because you take a bold position, people sometimes misunderstand, if they don't know you, you know, they don't know your heart, that no, you love people. You, I mean, obviously as a believer, you love God, you love people, you're trying to do the right thing. But also, you know, it's true that you can have somebody you really love that has a major disagreement with you and you can look and be like, you're totally wrong. And then sometimes the most loving thing to do is be like, hey, can we have a conversation? Can maybe can I walk you through what I'm thinking? And all of us, you know, guys with spouses and, you know, kids and families, you know, there are moments you can have a really great conversation and you don't always come with the right conclusion, but we wanna make sure that if people, if people are not agreeing with us, it's not because they don't have the information necessary to maybe alleviate the fears that we think are probably out of bounds. Again, it's like that person being in a house in the middle of a daytime sunlight out being afraid of being struck by lightning. I think that fear is probably not reasonable. I think it's probably not rational. Like, could it happen? I mean, I guess theoretically, theoretically, maybe possibly it could. I don't think it's likely or reasonable that you should operate in that fear given what we're doing right now. And I think, Mark, that's what you're trying to help walk people through. So it's not that we don't love people that love America and the Constitution and disagree with us. We just think they're wrong and we wanna help them understand why they're wrong.
Mark Meckler: Bottom line is this, if the convention got out of control still takes 26 states to get out of convention, then it takes 38 states to ratify it. Then every conservative organization in America would argue legally that this is non-germane, it came outside the call of the convention and it can't be ratified. And then ultimately, you still gotta get 38 states to ratify it.
Rick Green: And I agree.
Mark Meckler: Here's the final challenge, Rick. This is really important. I've said this to millions of people. My personal email address, Meckler at cosaction.com. If you're afraid of an amendment that could come out of this process, just email me, tell me what the amendment is and list the 38 states that would ratify that amendment. I've been saying this on air to people, to millions of people, literally 13 years now. I've never gotten an email from somebody who could do that, not once.
Rick Green: Well, Mark, thanks for coming on, man. There's so much more we could cover, so much more evidence there as well. ConventionofStates.com, of course, has all of this rebutted. And then those documents that you sent to me, I mean, the Harvard Law Review article by Mike Farris, available. People can go out and Google that. I think you even have it on the website. And then those two DOJ memos, incredible information there. Keep up the good work, man. We're excited about the progress. 20 states down, 14 to go. We'll get you back soon for an update.
Rick Green: Okay, folks, let's move into our next interview. Troy Miller's with us from National Religious Broadcasters. Troy, hey, great to have you, man.
Troy Miller: Oh, no, it's great to be with you guys again.
Rick Green: Well, I'm loving the fact that National Religious Broadcasters just continues to have an impact. I think even a greater impact today than five, six, seven, eight years ago, when I first started going, actually 10 years ago, I guess, was the first time I went to one of them. And man, now it's like the event of the year. I don't get to go every year, but I mean, everybody in the broadcasting world for, you know, in the Christian circles, for sure. But even just conservative media now, it's grown in a huge way.
Troy Miller: Well, look, God's really, you know, blessed us. And it has grown. I came over in 2019, you know, from NRB-TV. And, you know, that year out, Dan and I, we had about 2100 in attendance. And just this last year, we were at just over 5,800. We're expecting, we're gonna be in Washington, D.C. in 2027 February, 2027. And we're really hoping to crack that 6,000 mark. But look, we live in the age of communications now. This is kind of the thing that really, you know, drives life. Everybody runs around with one of these things here and you can't escape it, you know? So it's just important for us, especially as Christian communicators, to keep up on, you know, all the new technologies, things that are going on. But also, you know, all the issues that are, headwinds that are in front of us.
Rick Green: Well, that's the whole thing is being able to, you know, be like the men of Issachar that understand the times and know what to do. So knowing what those, the biblical position is on all these things, but then being able to articulate it and being able to get that message out so that we're actually discipling. I mean, that's the way I see religious broadcasting, you're discipling, you're teaching people how to live out the Bible.
Troy Miller: You're exactly right. That's the number one thing. Look, there's a great evangelistic part to it. I know when I was with Dr. D. James Kennedy, I mean, a lot of people that tuned in, you know, in a time of crisis and heard the gospel and gave their life over. But really, it's about building the church, discipling the church, getting the church ready, the bride ready, getting, working on that word, we don't talk about quite enough sanctification, you know, of the church and getting that in society. Because look, it's a sanctified church. It's a discipled church. It's a holy church that impacts society. That's the kind of church that makes a difference.
Rick Green: Yeah, man. And that's, and that idea that we should impact society for too long got kind of lost, right? We started thinking, oh, we're just supposed to stay in the four walls of our churches and all that nonsense that sort of neutered the church. And of course in COVID made us not, you know, not essential. And so now that we know we are and we see the culture crumbles without us and we're stepping back in, meaning the church as a whole, what would you say is one of the most important things for us to communicate to the church in general about civic engagement, about actually impacting the culture around us?
Troy Miller: And I think that is, I think it's one of the most important issues I think is for us to step back and look at, you know, the purpose of the church to begin with, because the church has had impact on the culture for 2,000 years. Every culture that the church has gone into, every culture that gospel's gone into has impacted that culture and it's impacted it in a positive, righteous Christian way in a holy way. It's taken out some of the worst pagan rituals and practices that went on in different cultures around the world. And it's really, you know, that we talk a lot about human flourishing. The foundation of human flourishing is the gospel of Jesus Christ and it's the principles and the morality, the ethics, the values we find in the Bible. And here's what I think we need to think of, Rick, as a church, more so than I think we've lost this in maybe the last 40 or 50 years. The American dream is always one thing. I come from a family of immigrants that came in the late 1800s, early 1900s. But their American dream, my grandma talked about this all the time about her mom was to pass on a better world to their children and grandchildren and hopefully knowing that their great grandchildren were gonna have better opportunities, more opportunities, a safer world than they had. And a lot of times they would sacrifice in order to have those things that they could pass on. And I think we've lost that view as Christians and I think our number one reason for civic engagement is because we wanna pass on a better world than we are living in today. And as Christians, we should wanna pass on a solid Christian world to our future generations.
Troy Miller: Yeah, you're exactly right. You look at every culture around and any culture that's tried to erase those Christian principles, whether it be a socialistic culture, whether it be a communist culture, you know, or just a fascist dictator. You know, everyone, humans have suffered. It's brought about the most suffering there is in a culture that is a Christ-less culture and a Christ-less society is a culture that's going to suffer. And as you said, those biblical principles, those gospel principles, whether they're just in politicians who just live out their worldview in how they govern, you know, that's when society flourishes, that's when the future is bright and even the current, even the present.
Rick Green: You know, if that's true, which I agree with you, of course, I know it is, why would, if you have the light, why would you not shine it to dispel the darkness? What happened? Why did we kind of just honestly remove ourselves from being salt and light?
Troy Miller: Well, I think a couple of things started to happen here. First of all, we started to think that government knew better than we did individually, you know. So we didn't have any uproar as when prayer was taken out of school. So we didn't have uproar as when the Ten Commandments were taken out of schools. And so when our institutions started to change, we just kind of bought into this idea that church is personal and private, and it should be in our home, and we shouldn't force this on. And that kind of started us down this path that then I think has moved church and Christianity further and further out of the mainstream culture. And we, unfortunately as Christians, we bought into it. Again, Dr. Kennedy told me when Roe v. Wade was passed in 1972, you know, he said there was almost zero uproar. It wasn't even a front page issue. He said there were a few churches that made an uproar about it, but it didn't catch on. It didn't, it wasn't until the 1980s that the church caught up with this. So we have to understand that God has given us a role in the culture today and a civics role in the culture. We're at this great 250 years, this great experiment, and you know this better than I do. This great experiment that we have, the whole idea behind it was that the individual, the populace, that was the area where really power was because it was the individual conscience that was protected more than anything.
Rick Green: Man, and if we don't teach people how to think right and how to think biblically and teach them what, these timeless principles that produce such a good result, they fall for the lie. They fall for the socialist, you know, utopia and all the other things that tend to get, you know, sold to the people. So if the church steps in and pastors step in to do that and we actually fulfill that role, what does that look like? Like how is the church best, especially for broadcasters, or pastors that have, you know, Dr. Kennedy was so good at applying the Bible to whatever was happening, right? It was just true discipleship. How do we convince pastors to do more of that? Where it literally is just saying, okay, whatever's in the news, we should be talking about what the Bible says about that.
Troy Miller: Right, because look, we did a survey with Barna last year in 2025 to kind of set a benchmark on what was going on in Christian media. And a couple of things really popped out. I think I don't know if you saw this or not. It was really surprising. Sixty percent, sixty-two percent of the country, the country, this is the broad country, not just Christians, tune in to Christian media at some point in their time. You know, a big chunk of it, forty-some percent tune in on a regular basis. But here's the big data. Do you know what the two largest demographics tuned in to Christian media were?
Rick Green: Wasn't the baby boomers?
Troy Miller: Wasn't the baby boomers? See, I would have guessed that.
Rick Green: That would have been my guess.
Troy Miller: Honestly, I would have guessed that. Gen Z was the largest. Sixty-four percent, the millennials right behind at fifty-eight percent. I'll tell you why, because we asked them, then why are you tuning in to Christian media? And I can summarize it in this. They wanted answers.
Rick Green: Yeah.
Troy Miller: They wanted answers to the things that are going on in life today. The number one thing, I want to know more about Christ and the Bible. I want to evaluate whether this is real, this is true. I want to know how to get closer to God, and I want to know how to have better relationships. But they really wanted answers. And we drilled down a little deeper. Seventy percent of people said, I'd love to hear my pastor talk more about current issues and what the Bible says about them. So this idea of pastors out there that are self-sensoring, because they're afraid they're going to offend their church, or somehow they're going to come in conflict with some government law, the Johnson Amendment or whatever else that's out there. That's not what your congregation wants to hear. We can tell you they really do want to hear from you as a pastor to help them understand and develop a biblical worldview that they can then live their lives out to.
Troy Miller: I'll just say this one last on this. If you go back 250 years, again, you know this well, the average citizen in America would be a Bible scholar today, because they were not just in the Bible reading it, they're daily devotion. They read it with the idea of this is going to impact the decisions I make in my life. And that's what led to the revolution and led to this great constitutional republic we have today.
Rick Green: Wow.
Troy Miller: Wow.
Rick Green: It's almost as if following the Bible creates a good society. Imagine that.
Troy Miller: Wow.
Rick Green: You said so many good things there. I'm thinking even the idea that they're hungry, they're looking, they're searching, I totally agree with that. And so if we want to make our broadcasting or whatever our platform is, right, if you're a pastor, if you're a teacher, if you're an employer and you've got employees that listen to your neighbors, whatever, we've all got voices. If we really want to meet the need right now, we need to study to show ourselves approved, so we need to know that truth and then we got to speak with all boldness. We're going to be ready to answer, you know, 1 Peter 3:15. And so what I hear you saying is that for religious broadcasting or anyone with a platform for that to be even stronger in the future than it's been in the past, let's get grounded and then let's be bold. That's what I hear from your message.
Troy Miller: That's exactly right. Look, biblical literacy is the number one issue people want. They want to be literate in the Bible. That's it. That's something the American Bible Society just came out with. There's a people actually we've seen this ticked down, but look what happened. We've seen the last year of COVID and everything. Bibles, people buying Bibles went up way up the purchasing of Bibles, especially again in that Gen Z. Why do you buy a Bible if you don't want to know what's in it? They want to know what's in it. They want to become literate on the Bible. The biblical literacy ought to be one of the things that is Christian communicators that we concentrate on the most. And then as you said, the word we're using over and over again. Be courageous.
Rick Green: Yeah.
Troy Miller: Be courageous. You know, remember that as leaders, we're held to what? Discipline. We're held to a higher accountability. We're held to God's standard, not man's. We shouldn't worry about that. I'm teaching through John right now in a family Bible study. And, you know, I think it's, I'm pretty sure it's chapter 12. You know, John and Jesus goes through this whole thing about who he is, right? He's just clear his day at the beginning of that chapter. And then it gets down and it says, it says, many of the Jews believed, but did not confess for fear of being cast out of the synagogue. That's a fear of man. That's the fear of being, you know, cast out by the culture of not being culturally trendy, you know, or culturally popular. We can't worry about culture popularity. We have to worry about biblical fidelity. And we have to worry about answering to God about our everything He's given us in our ministry.
Rick Green: That's so good right there. Well, and courage is contagious, right? I mean, when we stand, it encourages other people to do the same. It's probably why you're seeing the growth in NRB as more people stand up and they're strong and they're bold and they have a message that people are hungry for. The growth is there. Troy, give me real quick. So February is going to be in D.C. and people that are listening. I mean, obviously people that are in broadcasting or authors or ministry or whatever. We want to see them there. What if you don't have a platform, but you just want to come and talk to them and talk to them. That's a great part of it. Can you do that at the convention?
Troy Miller: Oh, absolutely. The convention is open to anybody. You don't have to be an NRB member. You don't have to be a Christian broadcaster. And look, I'll tell you this, Rick, everybody is a Christian communicator today.
Rick Green: That's right.
Troy Miller: Because the average person has a network of influence on social media of about 400 people four times the size of the average church in America.
Rick Green: Wow.
Troy Miller: Here. So you have a big network of influence. So we're February 23rd through the 27th. We're at the Gaylord National in Washington, D.C. We'll have a huge exhibit floor. You'll probably see your favorite ministry there if you're in the audience. If you're a broadcaster, you're going to learn about new trends, new tools, things that are going on. We'll talk a lot about AI. We've been talking about that the last couple of years. You'll also get any changes in broadcast laws. Any changes in the First Amendment challenges. All of those things we're going to talk about. Plus, we're going to talk about all of these cultural issues that are facing us. We're going into, you know, two more years, the last two years of this administration. We've got a lot on the plate and a lot and really a lot at stake.
Rick Green: What's the day? Give me the website. Is it NRB.org?
Troy Miller: NRB.org. NRB.org. It's the easiest one. And right from there, you can go up and click on NRB convention and you get all the information for that. Or you can click over on and look at everything that we're dealing with in the public policy side. NRB has, I think, as you know, and I tell your audience here, our number one thing is to advocate for Christian communicators, to keep people like you, like Rick and other people in the public space. Because a lot of people would love to silence the Christian voice. Especially the Christian communicators today. So we do that. Second, we help equip them. We do that iron sharpens iron. We keep that. And then the founding fathers of NRB, the guys that started this back in 1944, they put in the Constitution to care for the spiritual welfare of the country. And so those are the three pillars that we stand on.
Rick Green: So good. That's Troy Miller. Thanks for joining us, Troy Miller. We're going to switch over to another Troy. This is my friend, Troy Jackson, New Beginnings Church. They're in Bedford. It's in the Dallas, Fort Worth area. For those of you that aren't familiar with Texas, phenomenal church. They've hosted us so many times for Flashpoint and other events, Comedy and Constitution, Troy. It's just great to have you. I appreciate what you do. I appreciate you coming on.
Troy Jackson: Love you, Rick. Thank you for having me, my brother.
Rick Green: Well, when we were there a couple of weeks ago, you had your book Battle Tested. First of all, I love the cover and everything about it. We need to be reading, studying, learning and talking about out there for folks that are looking for ways to be effective in the culture and the power of a praying man in a nation at war. Can't think of a better message.
Troy Jackson: Yes. Yes, indeed. And that's where we are. And you know, there's a unique story behind the cover, Rick, that I learned later. So the young man that designed the cover, he had been battling a homosexual lifestyle. And he wanted to read the manuscript while he was trying to design the cover. And he actually accepted Christ through reading the manuscript while designing the cover. So if the book was for nobody else but him, God's will has been done.
Rick Green: Amen.
Troy Jackson: Amen.
Rick Green: That's awesome, bro. Awesome.
Rick Green: Well, listen, let's first talk about, I mean, you're involved in so many different issues. Your church and you and Larry have just been such a good friend to Israel. So you're all very involved on that. But also just constant cultural engagement. What made you decide to do this one specifically about the power of prayer?
Troy Jackson: You know, I think it comes from many conversations that I have with many friends like yourself. And we talk about how one thing we don't see a lot of is men pray. We don't see a lot of men standing before God in a public persona or because we have different appetites. And, you know, I believe that a battle tested man or biblical manhood requires responsibility. And so because the first question God asked fallen humanity was not, who did you vote for? It was Adam, where are you? And I believe God is asking American men that question again right now. And so I think that is very strategic because a battle tested man must first lead at home. And he leads at home through prayer and intercession and believing God for his family. A battle tested man prays with his family. He teaches scripture to his family. He protects his marriage. He disciplines his appetites. He controls his temper. He honors his commitments. He works diligently, keeps his word, and he models repentance. But he also prepares the next generation for the battles that they have yet to face. And I think we don't see a lot of that in the culture today where men are stepping up. Who do we see doing everything? Women. And then you have this whole initiative where people say, well, the women is supposed to be silent. Well, the man is silent and the woman is silent. Who's speaking up for our nation? Who's speaking up for our children? Who's speaking up for God? You notice when men show up at school board meetings, things change? When men show up at city council meetings, things change? It's because the women have always been showing up. But when the men show up and they're men of prayer and men that have been warned in the spirit and they've got on the armor of God and they're going into the civic arena and they are exercising their constitutional rights in America, it starts to create some shaking in the legislatures and in those legislative bodies, whether it's a school board or a city council or a state legislative body. When you have a bunch of men show up, it's like, okay, we're messing up because the men haven't been showing up. So we got to get this right.
Rick Green: Yeah.
Rick Green: Well, in fact, it's funny you talk about the shaking. I just got to interview Petra over the last few days. So I remember that song. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken from within. And David and Tim, when they hear this, they're going to make fun of me some more because I sounded like a middle school girl interviewing those guys. I was so excited.
Rick Green: Let me fast forward. Later in the book, you talk about how to pray and you talk about armoring up and you say something about the feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. You talk about being able to move without panic. That's what it was. It's like solid ground. Talk about that.
Troy Jackson: And so that is very crucial because many times we're moving and we're panicking because we don't see the hand of God, like you and I were talking about before the show began. And so we don't see the hand of God moving, but God's hand is moving. But when we move in a prayerful spirit, we are at peace that God, who, like the Bible says, He who began a good work in us will perform it to the day of Jesus Christ. And so we are at peace that the God that is at work in us is performing his work. No matter what the ground is doing all around us, no matter what the tension in the atmosphere is, we recognize and we honor that God is with us in this whole situation.
Rick Green: Amen. It's so good. That's Troy Jackson, Battle Tested. We are out of time.
Rick Green: Welcome back to At the Core with Walker Wildmon and Rick Green. Thanks for joining me today. We've got a couple of good interviews for you. It's a little bit different than an interview because this is a program I want to share with you that I recorded just a couple of days ago with my very good friend Mark Meckler from over at Convention of States and David and Tim Barton. So it aired on WallBuilders just a few days ago. And the reason I'm re-airing the interview portion of it, which I do that quite often, I grab interviews with people that I just get blessed to get to talk to. And we air them both on the WallBuilders program and here on At the Core because it's just too good of an interview for not to have both audiences get a chance to hear it. Anyway, but I don't usually do this. Maybe once or twice a year, there'll be an entire interview on WallBuilders and include David and Tim in that interview. And it's a topic that we just really need to get out there. And with Mark Meckler running Convention of States and we had made some offhanded remarks on one of our WallBuilders programs about convention and how it works, whether or not there could be a runaway convention, what, how to limit the call for the convention to be able to do amendments to the Constitution, but only the specific amendments that the legislatures want to be considered, get considered and nothing else, that whole topic. And so anyway, I think this is gonna be really educational. I think you're gonna enjoy this. And I think you'll learn a lot. Please send in your questions if you got questions about it and I'll do another program on it where we can actually take calls and get some feedback and talk about it more. In this case, we're just going to have a chance to hear the interview that I did with David and Tim Barton and Mark Meckler just a couple of days ago. Let's jump in.
Rick Green: Had a great program last Thursday on our Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Got to get a lot of great questions from the audience, sometimes on topics that we know nothing about and go do a lot of homework on, sometimes on topics that we've talked about a lot and are experts on, sometimes on a topic I thought I was an expert on and then I learned something and then sometimes it's, well, rarely it's a topic we actually disagree with here on the program which anytime anybody wants to be incendiary and light up the WallBuilders program, throw in a question about term limits so that we can have some fun debate here between David and Tim and myself.
Rick Green: But that's not our topic to do. Tim, no, do you wanna go down the road of term limits?
Tim Barton: No, I was just joking because one of the things that periodically as we're doing research and we find things and we will point it out to somebody every now and then we'll find a correction for somebody else on here. So, you know, I find something for my dad or Rick, find something for me and my dad, Dad, you find something for me and Rick and so every now and then we find something where like, oh, okay, I don't remember that, I hadn't seen that and I was chuckling because every now and then when I'm with my dad and we're doing something together, we're speaking at a conference, usually we're going different directions but sometimes we're together and I chuckle because my dad's been doing this for 40 years. I've been doing this not even 20 years yet. Now, I grew up in and around it, but I joke because every now and then I'll find something like, hey, Dad, actually, I think it's this. You said, you know, this way, I think it's probably where I heard it this way and I always chuckle and I tell him, I said, no, look, it's not a big deal. You have more to remember. I don't know as many stories yet. So, the stories I know I know a little better. You've learned way more stories so I see how it comes together.
Tim Barton: All that to say, sometimes we have a difference of opinion, like maybe the application of a constitutional issue or a strategic kind of operational thing and sometimes we say something that we maybe forgot some of that context or issue and sometimes, honestly, because we do a radio show every day, we say stuff sometimes and we will finish the program and we'll be like, hey, did you mean to say this and you're like, I didn't say that. I'm like, no, you actually said that. That's literally what, you know, I don't think so. When you talk enough, sometimes it's clear in your head and it doesn't always come out really clear through the microphone and I'm gonna blame the microphone now. It's not that I said the wrong words, the microphone messed it up, but apparently this happened a little bit last week where we had some questions in conversation and hey, did you mean to say it this way? Because I don't think that's right or did you guys know about this?
Tim Barton: And so yeah, our buddy Mark Meckler reached out and said, hey, have you guys read this? Have you seen this? And Rick, that was the interesting part because you and I talked for a while and you were like, I don't think I've ever read it. Like I should have known and seen this. I've never read this and I had absolutely never read it. But you were like, I thought I knew this so well. I'd never seen this. And it was something that having this new information was really informative that it hasn't changed our overall position, but it's added clarity to the position of what we thought we knew that actually might not have been totally correct. We have way more clarity now which of course our buddy Mark helped provide for us.
Rick Green: Well, before you guys go there, I'm gonna do a fake mea culpa. And the fake mea culpa is you guys told me on the program, something I said. I said there was no way I said that and went back and played it and I was wrong, but I think you guys edited the tape before you played it to make you look wrong. I think I actually said it right and you guys said I said it wrong.
Rick Green: So that's my fake mea culpa. So I got called saying something I didn't think I said, but I actually said what you guys said, but I still think you're wrong because I know when I had my brain it just didn't come out of my mouth.
David Barton: Well, I'm gonna go one step further. I think I have, I think I was wrong on an issue. Now this happened once back in the 80s. So it's not the first time I was wrong. It did happen a really long time. No, seriously, happens all the time. But on a topic that I thought I was really, like you said, Tim, really well schooled on and I've talked about for 15, 20 years now and we've got all over our videos. But this particular area of the topic I've kind of always dismissed because it never bothered me.
David Barton: And of course we're talking about Convention of States which we had a question last week about whether or not you can have a limited call. In other words, the states can say only talk about these subjects and then be held to that once they get together in convention. And I've always kind of blown that off because I'm like, eh, you still gotta go back to 38 states and get it ratified. So if they go out of bounds, the states that sent them there are gonna say, no, you were out of bounds. We're not gonna ratify that amendment. So I've always kind of blown it off, but it is really important to a lot of people. They wanna make sure that it's a limited call. And so after we kind of, I kind of blew it off last week when the question was asked and we, you know, found out, whoa, wait a minute. And by the way, I kind of blew it last week. I didn't blow it off, I kind of blew it last week. I was like, well, we've asked Mark to come and educate us a little bit because he sent me several documents that I never read, the Department of Justice papers, Ed Meese, you know, I've always looked at the Constitution guide that the Heritage Foundation did years ago, our Constitution guide that Heritage Foundation did years ago that Ed Meese was the editor of, has always been like my main go-to in addition to the Federalist papers. And I actually use it when I'm standing there doing Constitution Alive in Independence Hall, teaching the Constitution. I can't believe I never read this document that was produced by that DOJ. And then Mike Farris, our good friend, had a complete article in the Harvard Law Review that also covers this topic. So I went to school over the last three or four days after talking to Mark on the phone and him sending me these things. And I learned so much that I didn't know about limited calls for a convention.
David Barton: And, Mark, thank you for coming on WallBuilders again. And thank you for sending me those documents. Really appreciate the homework assignment and me not getting any rest this weekend and having to read these 50 page documents. No, I didn't even get through all the way. I learned so much even in just the first part of each of them. But hey, man, thanks for coming back on the program.
Mark Meckler: Oh, I'm glad to be here. You know, I got the five-alarm fire. I heard the bells go off and people started calling me and saying, hey, we're listening to WallBuilders and they said all this stuff. And honestly, my first reaction was no way. They didn't say any of that stuff. Like I'll listen and we'll see if they said, I know they wouldn't say that stuff. And so then I listen, I'm like, okay, now I'm confused because this doesn't make sense to me. And that's when I reached out to Rick. And just so you know, David, Rick just said, no, David didn't say that. I'm quite certain.
Mark Meckler: And by the way, just so you guys know the context, there was a question about 1787 that David brought up. It's actually kind of, there was a question about limited conventions brought up the 1787 convention. And just said, I think that it was almost a throwaway line by David. It was like you meant to say something different. And you said, yeah, they went there to amend the Articles of Confederation. And then they just said, yeah, we'll do something else. And I almost expected you to say something like, that's what people say, but that's not true. And it's like your brain just skipped ahead. You were just thinking too fast. And you just thought on the next thing.
Mark Meckler: But the funniest part was just so you know, Rick was absolutely certain you didn't say what I had listened to you say. I actually had to get the transcript from your show and I cut and pasted the transcript to Rick. And he's like, oh, yeah, he definitely said that.
Mark Meckler: I told both of these guys, I didn't say what they accused me of saying or what you told them that I said, there's no way. That's not what I said. So I was right. Rick and I both voted. So we outvoted you guys. So it's two to one. I was right all along.
Mark Meckler: Well, let's start by clarifying that. I mean, because it really wasn't the main substance of the thing, it was almost a throwaway line by David because what we're really talking about is can the convention be limited? But I want to just clarify the first point because I think it's really important because I hear from folks who oppose Convention of States all the time and they say something that offends me. And it doesn't offend me personally, it offends me because it's really a slander on the framers of our Constitution, these incredible geniuses that were there and that drafted this thing. And what people say is, well, they got sent only to amend the Articles of Confederation and then there was a runaway convention. They just decided, nah, we're gonna do whatever we wanna do. I find that offensive in a lot of ways and I also find it, it's not true, flies in the face of history. So I want to address that first. I mean, the very first thing I want to say about that is if you revere the framers, like most of us do, I mean, they were humans, they're not perfect, but if you believe that they were men of honor and for the most part, they were men of great honor, they held honor in such high esteem that they would duel over honor. Let's remember that. They would kill each other over slights to their honor. The idea that they would gather in a convention that they would have instructions from their states and then that they would all, including George Washington, who is the president of the convention, I'll just decide, no, that doesn't matter what we said we were gonna do, we're gonna do whatever we want. That just flies in the face of what we know about the framers and of what we know about people of the time.
David Barton: Yeah, it's such a good point, Mark, because thinking about George Washington, George Washington spent over 40 years not doing what he wanted to do. All right, like all he wanted to do was be a farmer at Mount Vernon. He didn't wanna do all the service to the nation, but one of the things the founding fathers believed is if you were called to serve, you had a duty of responsibility. It was selfish to say no. And so it's such a good point, this idea that they went there and they created a runaway convention. They did what they wanted to do and then they were gonna try to impose that on the state. It's a really bad look on their character and Mark to your point.
Tim Barton: What's so important about this and Rick even backing up, you know, one of the things that we had not been overly concerned with was that an Article V Convention could be a limited convention. The reason we were concerned with it is because we knew a runaway convention is not a real fear, but Mark to your point, there are some people that adamantly oppose an Article V Convention of States because they say no, it's a runaway convention. We don't wanna lose the Constitution. And of course, like again, the reason that's not a concern in our mind is because we know if you have to get whatever's done approved by 38 states, it's not a runaway convention. If 38 states approve it, that's more a reflection of we the people. Number one, I mean, like you can go down a long list of why this fear is kind of irrational, but backing up Mark to your point is that the irrational fear is far more irrational than most people even realize. People think, no, this is a rational fear. No, it's really not because that's not what the Constitutional Convention was called for, number one.
Tim Barton: And number two, if you look historically and Rick, this is where when you called me about that piece from Ed Meese and about, and even like Farris, their explanation on how a Convention of States call has to be limited and it has to operate inside those bounds, I didn't realize how much clarity was there and I never paid attention to it because it wasn't a concern I had, but Mark backing up to your point, there's a lot of people, and I would say honestly, the really good-hearted people that love the Founding Fathers, that love the Constitution, that oppose Article V, it's because of this fear that the convention wouldn't be limited, it would be runaway and it might threaten the Constitution, and Mark, as you shared with us and pointed out, that is a very improper historic perspective, not just that the fear I think is irrational and I'm not saying that's a slight to anybody that has that fear, I just don't think that's, it's like this idea that you're sitting in your bedroom at night on a sunny day and you're scared of being struck by lightning. Well, that's pretty irrational, right? Like there's not even a storm in the area, what are you concerned about? And that's not to try and downplay somebody that might have a genuine heart that loves America, that loves God, that loves the Founding Fathers and Constitution, but even more so, Mark, when you start explaining things that help somebody understand, wait a second, it's daylight outside, there's not a storm, I'm in my house, like I'm totally safe, this is a safe space.
Tim Barton: I think most people don't realize that there's a lot more safeguards around an Article V convention, Mark, that again, you helped kind of point out, so when you walk through, Mark, some of what you had emailed and shared with us, maybe some of this idea that some people might have been concerned that the original Constitutional Convention was a runaway convention and you pointed out it's not because it was part of the call.
Rick Green: Terrible time to interrupt and take a break, got to do it.
Rick Green: And then you got into even why we know that a modern call for a Convention of States would be limited based on things that we have seen from Department of Justice, from our good friend like Mike Farris, who was one of the guys running Alliance Defending Freedom, this huge constitutional law firm. Like these constitutional experts are pointing out, no, it would have to be limited. Will you walk us through some of that, Mark?
Mark Meckler: All right, well, let's start with 1787 and the framers because we'll clear their reputation. And the reason that people think, and I think this is important, you say, good-hearted people believe this, I think that's important. Most people believe 1787 was a quote-unquote runaway convention, or they were sent only to amend the articles until recently, until Rob Natelson looked at the original commissions. These are documents taken by each of these guys. You can actually go see them in the National Archives, taken by each of the people who went to convention. And if you look at those, what they read is, there's some version of this in the first six states that commissioned their delegates. It says, the delegate has any and all authority necessary to render the federal constitution adequate for the exigencies of the union. And it says any and all, there's no limitation. It doesn't even mention the articles of confederation. And so what happens is Virginia, as the first call, five states follow on their heels, use very similar language, Connecticut ends up using similar language. They give their delegates full authority, go do whatever you want.
Mark Meckler: Important side note, you guys talk about the language all the time, the language matters. In 1787, the country doesn't have a constitution. We have articles of confederation. And so when they say to render the federal constitution adequate, what they mean is the makeup of the government, the constitution of the government, the way it's set up. So they're saying go there and just fix it. There's another clue to this that we understand that we can see from history is if you go, the previous convention was the Annapolis Convention. It was called to deal with commercial matters. The states were struggling to do commercial business with each other. Only five states showed up for that. And the delegates to that convention understood they were just there to deal with commercial matters. They had a limited commission. They were given limited authority. And those delegates meet. And for two reasons they decide they can't do anything. One is they say, we only have five states. That's not enough. And then the second is they say, we don't have the authority. There's all these problems. We're struggling with all these things in the new country. There's way more we have to deal with than commercial stuff. So we need to tell the states that we need a more general convention.
Mark Meckler: And they're so worried, Tim, about the limitations on their authority and that they're gonna exceed those, that they actually debate like, can we even issue a recommendation for a broader convention? Like is that within our authority? Are we exceeding the scope of our authority here at this commercial convention? But they ultimately recommend that the states gather in convention for a broader constitutional convention, a full convention with plenary authority. That then is started by Virginia, quickly taken up by six states. Connecticut is the seventh state to issue the broader call. Two states actually limit the call. That's Massachusetts and New York. And the reason they limit the call, they don't like the idea of a convention in general. After the sixth state to call, Congress says, you know what? We think you're right. You should gather in convention. There's no power under the Articles of Confederation for Congress to call a convention. Zero, it's not mentioned. They don't have that power. Congress doesn't say they're calling a convention. They say in the language of their declaration, they're recommending, they never transmit to the states, like they have plenary authority. They just say, we recommend you guys get together. And they do use the words to amend the Articles of Confederation. Massachusetts and New York parrot that language. And the beautiful thing about the whole thing is it works perfectly. They gather in convention. You know who doesn't vote? Massachusetts and New York, because their delegations were limited by the authority that their states gave them or the limitations on the authority that they were given. And so everybody does exactly what they're supposed to do at convention. The convention is limited by the states that want to limit it. Their delegates can't do anything else. And the others are given full authority. So it's not a runaway convention. They did exactly what they were sent to do.
Mark Meckler: So that sets the foundation for all of this, in my opinion. So because, Tim, I'm going to tell you, David, every single time somebody tells me there's going to be a runaway convention, they tell me 1787 was a runaway convention. I'm going to make it my life's work to clear the reputation of the framers on that one.
Tim Barton: I love it.
Rick Green: Hey, let's take a quick break, Mark. When we come back, we'll talk about how to do a limited call right now and why that has prevented what we call, and I think the right word is aggregation of all of the different calls for all the different subjects. Otherwise, we would have already had a convention of states based on all of those calls being aggregated. It has to be a limited call, which is a new understanding for me after diving into all this over the last few days.
Rick Green: And of course, guys, there's been a lot of people call for a convention for all kinds of things. And one of the things I learned in the reading from the DOJ documents was that there was actually an apportionment amendment back in the 60s, which is not the apportionment amendment today. Very different from that one that says that we can make sure that the only citizens are counted in the census. But anyway, you've had lots of people call for a convention for lots of things well over the 34 states needed to do a resolution and call for it, but yet there hasn't been a convention. So clearly there does have to be a similar, or I guess exact call, Mark, that's what you've done, is now 20 states with an exact same call for the exact same subject matters.
Mark Meckler: Yeah, there's a legal concept called aggregation. And what that means is that in order for the calls to aggregate to the two thirds necessary, 34 necessary, they have to be almost identical. And I say almost because it's important the preamble to anybody's call, the whereas and the wherefore stuff, that language can be different. But once you get into what's the purpose of the convention, it has to be the same and it has to be limited. And there's a whole bunch of reasons we know this. First of all, it's not just Mark Meckler saying this, the DOJ has issued a lengthy opinion on this twice, once during the Carter administration, and then once the Ed Meese DOJ that you referenced. So these are reports that are widely available, they're very extensive, and they document the history of conventions in the United States of America and showing that you cannot get to convention unless the calls aggregate, meaning they're the same. We also know this from the long practice, and that is in the history of the United States of America, starting at the very beginning, there have been over 400 calls for convention. We've never seen 34 of them or whatever the number was necessary at the time based on two thirds of the states. We've never seen enough that are the same or that aggregate in order to get to convention. So a lot of people would say, well, it doesn't really matter what it says. If the states call for a convention, you can put them all together, just jumble them all together and you get to the 34 number. If that were the case, we'd have been in a convention many times in American history. Everybody knows and acknowledges, frankly, unless they're hallucinating, that you have to have them be the same. And so they haven't been the same throughout all of American history. We've never been to this magical two thirds or now 34 number that gets us to convention. Convention of States as an organization is working on this with 20 states that have passed applications that will absolutely aggregate.
Mark Meckler: And once they do that, if once you get to the 34 and you go to convention, if a state delegation offered amendments outside of the call, what do you think happens at that point?
Rick Green: Yeah, well, we've done a couple of these, we know how they work just generally speaking, but they work like a legislature. So Rick, I know you're an expert on how legislatures work. There'll be officers at the convention, there'll be a presiding officer, there'll be a parliamentarian, a secretary, all this stuff. And so somebody would raise their hand, for example, and say, well, we'd like to repeal the second amendment and somebody from a rational state would raise their hand and say, that's not germane to this convention because our convention is limited by the call and by the applications which all match and this is not within the call and they would be gaveled out of order. That's what would happen. And it happens in legislatures all the time, Rick, you've been in a legislature, we've all seen this in legislatures. People try to do crazy stuff all the time in legislatures and they get gaveled out of order because it's not germane to the discussion at hand.
Mark Meckler: And if the entire convention goes crazy because some, the Joker shows up and puts some gas in the air conditioning system and suddenly puts everybody in a trance and manages to pass some amendment that's completely outside the call, then what happens?
Rick Green: Yeah, so, you know, I love to walk through this with people. What happens then is-
Mark Meckler: Even though it's impossible.
Rick Green: Yeah, well, because I want people, people who are afraid and I agree with Tim, I think this is really important. People are afraid because they love the Constitution. Tim, you wanna jump in here?
Tim Barton: Well, yeah, I was gonna say, you know, one of the things too, Mark, that you are very gracious in doing and, you know, sometimes because you take a bold position, people sometimes misunderstand, if they don't know you, you know, they don't know your heart, that no, you love people. You, I mean, obviously as a believer, you love God, you love people, you're trying to do the right thing. But also, you know, it's true that you can have somebody you really love that has a major disagreement with you and you can look and be like, you're totally wrong. And then sometimes the most loving thing to do is be like, hey, can we have a conversation? Can maybe can I walk you through what I'm thinking? And all of us, you know, guys with spouses and, you know, kids and families, you know, there are moments you can have a really great conversation and you don't always come with the right conclusion, but we wanna make sure that if people, if people are not agreeing with us, it's not because they don't have the information necessary to maybe alleviate the fears that we think are probably out of bounds. Again, it's like that person being in a house in the middle of a daytime sunlight out being afraid of being struck by lightning. I think that fear is probably not reasonable. I think it's probably not rational. Like, could it happen? I mean, I guess theoretically, theoretically, maybe possibly it could. I don't think it's likely or reasonable that you should operate in that fear given what we're doing right now. And I think, Mark, that's what you're trying to help walk people through. So it's not that we don't love people that love America and the Constitution and disagree with us. We just think they're wrong and we wanna help them understand why they're wrong.
Mark Meckler: Bottom line is this, if the convention got out of control still takes 26 states to get out of convention, then it takes 38 states to ratify it. Then every conservative organization in America would argue legally that this is non-germane, it came outside the call of the convention and it can't be ratified. And then ultimately, you still gotta get 38 states to ratify it.
Rick Green: And I agree.
Mark Meckler: Here's the final challenge, Rick. This is really important. I've said this to millions of people. My personal email address, Meckler at cosaction.com. If you're afraid of an amendment that could come out of this process, just email me, tell me what the amendment is and list the 38 states that would ratify that amendment. I've been saying this on air to people, to millions of people, literally 13 years now. I've never gotten an email from somebody who could do that, not once.
Rick Green: Well, Mark, thanks for coming on, man. There's so much more we could cover, so much more evidence there as well. ConventionofStates.com, of course, has all of this rebutted. And then those documents that you sent to me, I mean, the Harvard Law Review article by Mike Farris, available. People can go out and Google that. I think you even have it on the website. And then those two DOJ memos, incredible information there. Keep up the good work, man. We're excited about the progress. 20 states down, 14 to go. We'll get you back soon for an update.
Rick Green: Okay, folks, let's move into our next interview. Troy Miller's with us from National Religious Broadcasters. Troy, hey, great to have you, man.
Troy Miller: Oh, no, it's great to be with you guys again.
Rick Green: Well, I'm loving the fact that National Religious Broadcasters just continues to have an impact. I think even a greater impact today than five, six, seven, eight years ago, when I first started going, actually 10 years ago, I guess, was the first time I went to one of them. And man, now it's like the event of the year. I don't get to go every year, but I mean, everybody in the broadcasting world for, you know, in the Christian circles, for sure. But even just conservative media now, it's grown in a huge way.
Troy Miller: Well, look, God's really, you know, blessed us. And it has grown. I came over in 2019, you know, from NRB-TV. And, you know, that year out, Dan and I, we had about 2100 in attendance. And just this last year, we were at just over 5,800. We're expecting, we're gonna be in Washington, D.C. in 2027 February, 2027. And we're really hoping to crack that 6,000 mark. But look, we live in the age of communications now. This is kind of the thing that really, you know, drives life. Everybody runs around with one of these things here and you can't escape it, you know? So it's just important for us, especially as Christian communicators, to keep up on, you know, all the new technologies, things that are going on. But also, you know, all the issues that are, headwinds that are in front of us.
Rick Green: Well, that's the whole thing is being able to, you know, be like the men of Issachar that understand the times and know what to do. So knowing what those, the biblical position is on all these things, but then being able to articulate it and being able to get that message out so that we're actually discipling. I mean, that's the way I see religious broadcasting, you're discipling, you're teaching people how to live out the Bible.
Troy Miller: You're exactly right. That's the number one thing. Look, there's a great evangelistic part to it. I know when I was with Dr. D. James Kennedy, I mean, a lot of people that tuned in, you know, in a time of crisis and heard the gospel and gave their life over. But really, it's about building the church, discipling the church, getting the church ready, the bride ready, getting, working on that word, we don't talk about quite enough sanctification, you know, of the church and getting that in society. Because look, it's a sanctified church. It's a discipled church. It's a holy church that impacts society. That's the kind of church that makes a difference.
Rick Green: Yeah, man. And that's, and that idea that we should impact society for too long got kind of lost, right? We started thinking, oh, we're just supposed to stay in the four walls of our churches and all that nonsense that sort of neutered the church. And of course in COVID made us not, you know, not essential. And so now that we know we are and we see the culture crumbles without us and we're stepping back in, meaning the church as a whole, what would you say is one of the most important things for us to communicate to the church in general about civic engagement, about actually impacting the culture around us?
Troy Miller: And I think that is, I think it's one of the most important issues I think is for us to step back and look at, you know, the purpose of the church to begin with, because the church has had impact on the culture for 2,000 years. Every culture that the church has gone into, every culture that gospel's gone into has impacted that culture and it's impacted it in a positive, righteous Christian way in a holy way. It's taken out some of the worst pagan rituals and practices that went on in different cultures around the world. And it's really, you know, that we talk a lot about human flourishing. The foundation of human flourishing is the gospel of Jesus Christ and it's the principles and the morality, the ethics, the values we find in the Bible. And here's what I think we need to think of, Rick, as a church, more so than I think we've lost this in maybe the last 40 or 50 years. The American dream is always one thing. I come from a family of immigrants that came in the late 1800s, early 1900s. But their American dream, my grandma talked about this all the time about her mom was to pass on a better world to their children and grandchildren and hopefully knowing that their great grandchildren were gonna have better opportunities, more opportunities, a safer world than they had. And a lot of times they would sacrifice in order to have those things that they could pass on. And I think we've lost that view as Christians and I think our number one reason for civic engagement is because we wanna pass on a better world than we are living in today. And as Christians, we should wanna pass on a solid Christian world to our future generations.
Troy Miller: Yeah, you're exactly right. You look at every culture around and any culture that's tried to erase those Christian principles, whether it be a socialistic culture, whether it be a communist culture, you know, or just a fascist dictator. You know, everyone, humans have suffered. It's brought about the most suffering there is in a culture that is a Christ-less culture and a Christ-less society is a culture that's going to suffer. And as you said, those biblical principles, those gospel principles, whether they're just in politicians who just live out their worldview in how they govern, you know, that's when society flourishes, that's when the future is bright and even the current, even the present.
Rick Green: You know, if that's true, which I agree with you, of course, I know it is, why would, if you have the light, why would you not shine it to dispel the darkness? What happened? Why did we kind of just honestly remove ourselves from being salt and light?
Troy Miller: Well, I think a couple of things started to happen here. First of all, we started to think that government knew better than we did individually, you know. So we didn't have any uproar as when prayer was taken out of school. So we didn't have uproar as when the Ten Commandments were taken out of schools. And so when our institutions started to change, we just kind of bought into this idea that church is personal and private, and it should be in our home, and we shouldn't force this on. And that kind of started us down this path that then I think has moved church and Christianity further and further out of the mainstream culture. And we, unfortunately as Christians, we bought into it. Again, Dr. Kennedy told me when Roe v. Wade was passed in 1972, you know, he said there was almost zero uproar. It wasn't even a front page issue. He said there were a few churches that made an uproar about it, but it didn't catch on. It didn't, it wasn't until the 1980s that the church caught up with this. So we have to understand that God has given us a role in the culture today and a civics role in the culture. We're at this great 250 years, this great experiment, and you know this better than I do. This great experiment that we have, the whole idea behind it was that the individual, the populace, that was the area where really power was because it was the individual conscience that was protected more than anything.
Rick Green: Man, and if we don't teach people how to think right and how to think biblically and teach them what, these timeless principles that produce such a good result, they fall for the lie. They fall for the socialist, you know, utopia and all the other things that tend to get, you know, sold to the people. So if the church steps in and pastors step in to do that and we actually fulfill that role, what does that look like? Like how is the church best, especially for broadcasters, or pastors that have, you know, Dr. Kennedy was so good at applying the Bible to whatever was happening, right? It was just true discipleship. How do we convince pastors to do more of that? Where it literally is just saying, okay, whatever's in the news, we should be talking about what the Bible says about that.
Troy Miller: Right, because look, we did a survey with Barna last year in 2025 to kind of set a benchmark on what was going on in Christian media. And a couple of things really popped out. I think I don't know if you saw this or not. It was really surprising. Sixty percent, sixty-two percent of the country, the country, this is the broad country, not just Christians, tune in to Christian media at some point in their time. You know, a big chunk of it, forty-some percent tune in on a regular basis. But here's the big data. Do you know what the two largest demographics tuned in to Christian media were?
Rick Green: Wasn't the baby boomers?
Troy Miller: Wasn't the baby boomers? See, I would have guessed that.
Rick Green: That would have been my guess.
Troy Miller: Honestly, I would have guessed that. Gen Z was the largest. Sixty-four percent, the millennials right behind at fifty-eight percent. I'll tell you why, because we asked them, then why are you tuning in to Christian media? And I can summarize it in this. They wanted answers.
Rick Green: Yeah.
Troy Miller: They wanted answers to the things that are going on in life today. The number one thing, I want to know more about Christ and the Bible. I want to evaluate whether this is real, this is true. I want to know how to get closer to God, and I want to know how to have better relationships. But they really wanted answers. And we drilled down a little deeper. Seventy percent of people said, I'd love to hear my pastor talk more about current issues and what the Bible says about them. So this idea of pastors out there that are self-sensoring, because they're afraid they're going to offend their church, or somehow they're going to come in conflict with some government law, the Johnson Amendment or whatever else that's out there. That's not what your congregation wants to hear. We can tell you they really do want to hear from you as a pastor to help them understand and develop a biblical worldview that they can then live their lives out to.
Troy Miller: I'll just say this one last on this. If you go back 250 years, again, you know this well, the average citizen in America would be a Bible scholar today, because they were not just in the Bible reading it, they're daily devotion. They read it with the idea of this is going to impact the decisions I make in my life. And that's what led to the revolution and led to this great constitutional republic we have today.
Rick Green: Wow.
Troy Miller: Wow.
Rick Green: It's almost as if following the Bible creates a good society. Imagine that.
Troy Miller: Wow.
Rick Green: You said so many good things there. I'm thinking even the idea that they're hungry, they're looking, they're searching, I totally agree with that. And so if we want to make our broadcasting or whatever our platform is, right, if you're a pastor, if you're a teacher, if you're an employer and you've got employees that listen to your neighbors, whatever, we've all got voices. If we really want to meet the need right now, we need to study to show ourselves approved, so we need to know that truth and then we got to speak with all boldness. We're going to be ready to answer, you know, 1 Peter 3:15. And so what I hear you saying is that for religious broadcasting or anyone with a platform for that to be even stronger in the future than it's been in the past, let's get grounded and then let's be bold. That's what I hear from your message.
Troy Miller: That's exactly right. Look, biblical literacy is the number one issue people want. They want to be literate in the Bible. That's it. That's something the American Bible Society just came out with. There's a people actually we've seen this ticked down, but look what happened. We've seen the last year of COVID and everything. Bibles, people buying Bibles went up way up the purchasing of Bibles, especially again in that Gen Z. Why do you buy a Bible if you don't want to know what's in it? They want to know what's in it. They want to become literate on the Bible. The biblical literacy ought to be one of the things that is Christian communicators that we concentrate on the most. And then as you said, the word we're using over and over again. Be courageous.
Rick Green: Yeah.
Troy Miller: Be courageous. You know, remember that as leaders, we're held to what? Discipline. We're held to a higher accountability. We're held to God's standard, not man's. We shouldn't worry about that. I'm teaching through John right now in a family Bible study. And, you know, I think it's, I'm pretty sure it's chapter 12. You know, John and Jesus goes through this whole thing about who he is, right? He's just clear his day at the beginning of that chapter. And then it gets down and it says, it says, many of the Jews believed, but did not confess for fear of being cast out of the synagogue. That's a fear of man. That's the fear of being, you know, cast out by the culture of not being culturally trendy, you know, or culturally popular. We can't worry about culture popularity. We have to worry about biblical fidelity. And we have to worry about answering to God about our everything He's given us in our ministry.
Rick Green: That's so good right there. Well, and courage is contagious, right? I mean, when we stand, it encourages other people to do the same. It's probably why you're seeing the growth in NRB as more people stand up and they're strong and they're bold and they have a message that people are hungry for. The growth is there. Troy, give me real quick. So February is going to be in D.C. and people that are listening. I mean, obviously people that are in broadcasting or authors or ministry or whatever. We want to see them there. What if you don't have a platform, but you just want to come and talk to them and talk to them. That's a great part of it. Can you do that at the convention?
Troy Miller: Oh, absolutely. The convention is open to anybody. You don't have to be an NRB member. You don't have to be a Christian broadcaster. And look, I'll tell you this, Rick, everybody is a Christian communicator today.
Rick Green: That's right.
Troy Miller: Because the average person has a network of influence on social media of about 400 people four times the size of the average church in America.
Rick Green: Wow.
Troy Miller: Here. So you have a big network of influence. So we're February 23rd through the 27th. We're at the Gaylord National in Washington, D.C. We'll have a huge exhibit floor. You'll probably see your favorite ministry there if you're in the audience. If you're a broadcaster, you're going to learn about new trends, new tools, things that are going on. We'll talk a lot about AI. We've been talking about that the last couple of years. You'll also get any changes in broadcast laws. Any changes in the First Amendment challenges. All of those things we're going to talk about. Plus, we're going to talk about all of these cultural issues that are facing us. We're going into, you know, two more years, the last two years of this administration. We've got a lot on the plate and a lot and really a lot at stake.
Rick Green: What's the day? Give me the website. Is it NRB.org?
Troy Miller: NRB.org. NRB.org. It's the easiest one. And right from there, you can go up and click on NRB convention and you get all the information for that. Or you can click over on and look at everything that we're dealing with in the public policy side. NRB has, I think, as you know, and I tell your audience here, our number one thing is to advocate for Christian communicators, to keep people like you, like Rick and other people in the public space. Because a lot of people would love to silence the Christian voice. Especially the Christian communicators today. So we do that. Second, we help equip them. We do that iron sharpens iron. We keep that. And then the founding fathers of NRB, the guys that started this back in 1944, they put in the Constitution to care for the spiritual welfare of the country. And so those are the three pillars that we stand on.
Rick Green: So good. That's Troy Miller. Thanks for joining us, Troy Miller. We're going to switch over to another Troy. This is my friend, Troy Jackson, New Beginnings Church. They're in Bedford. It's in the Dallas, Fort Worth area. For those of you that aren't familiar with Texas, phenomenal church. They've hosted us so many times for Flashpoint and other events, Comedy and Constitution, Troy. It's just great to have you. I appreciate what you do. I appreciate you coming on.
Troy Jackson: Love you, Rick. Thank you for having me, my brother.
Rick Green: Well, when we were there a couple of weeks ago, you had your book Battle Tested. First of all, I love the cover and everything about it. We need to be reading, studying, learning and talking about out there for folks that are looking for ways to be effective in the culture and the power of a praying man in a nation at war. Can't think of a better message.
Troy Jackson: Yes. Yes, indeed. And that's where we are. And you know, there's a unique story behind the cover, Rick, that I learned later. So the young man that designed the cover, he had been battling a homosexual lifestyle. And he wanted to read the manuscript while he was trying to design the cover. And he actually accepted Christ through reading the manuscript while designing the cover. So if the book was for nobody else but him, God's will has been done.
Rick Green: Amen.
Troy Jackson: Amen.
Rick Green: That's awesome, bro. Awesome.
Rick Green: Well, listen, let's first talk about, I mean, you're involved in so many different issues. Your church and you and Larry have just been such a good friend to Israel. So you're all very involved on that. But also just constant cultural engagement. What made you decide to do this one specifically about the power of prayer?
Troy Jackson: You know, I think it comes from many conversations that I have with many friends like yourself. And we talk about how one thing we don't see a lot of is men pray. We don't see a lot of men standing before God in a public persona or because we have different appetites. And, you know, I believe that a battle tested man or biblical manhood requires responsibility. And so because the first question God asked fallen humanity was not, who did you vote for? It was Adam, where are you? And I believe God is asking American men that question again right now. And so I think that is very strategic because a battle tested man must first lead at home. And he leads at home through prayer and intercession and believing God for his family. A battle tested man prays with his family. He teaches scripture to his family. He protects his marriage. He disciplines his appetites. He controls his temper. He honors his commitments. He works diligently, keeps his word, and he models repentance. But he also prepares the next generation for the battles that they have yet to face. And I think we don't see a lot of that in the culture today where men are stepping up. Who do we see doing everything? Women. And then you have this whole initiative where people say, well, the women is supposed to be silent. Well, the man is silent and the woman is silent. Who's speaking up for our nation? Who's speaking up for our children? Who's speaking up for God? You notice when men show up at school board meetings, things change? When men show up at city council meetings, things change? It's because the women have always been showing up. But when the men show up and they're men of prayer and men that have been warned in the spirit and they've got on the armor of God and they're going into the civic arena and they are exercising their constitutional rights in America, it starts to create some shaking in the legislatures and in those legislative bodies, whether it's a school board or a city council or a state legislative body. When you have a bunch of men show up, it's like, okay, we're messing up because the men haven't been showing up. So we got to get this right.
Rick Green: Yeah.
Rick Green: Well, in fact, it's funny you talk about the shaking. I just got to interview Petra over the last few days. So I remember that song. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken from within. And David and Tim, when they hear this, they're going to make fun of me some more because I sounded like a middle school girl interviewing those guys. I was so excited.
Rick Green: Let me fast forward. Later in the book, you talk about how to pray and you talk about armoring up and you say something about the feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. You talk about being able to move without panic. That's what it was. It's like solid ground. Talk about that.
Troy Jackson: And so that is very crucial because many times we're moving and we're panicking because we don't see the hand of God, like you and I were talking about before the show began. And so we don't see the hand of God moving, but God's hand is moving. But when we move in a prayerful spirit, we are at peace that God, who, like the Bible says, He who began a good work in us will perform it to the day of Jesus Christ. And so we are at peace that the God that is at work in us is performing his work. No matter what the ground is doing all around us, no matter what the tension in the atmosphere is, we recognize and we honor that God is with us in this whole situation.
Rick Green: Amen. It's so good. That's Troy Jackson, Battle Tested. We are out of time.
Rick Green sits down with Mark Meckler of Convention of States, alongside David and Tim Barton of WallBuilders, to dismantle one of the most persistent fears surrounding an Article V convention: the runaway convention myth. Meckler walks through original founding commissions, DOJ opinions from the Carter and Reagan eras, and the legal principle of aggregation to show how states can limit a convention to specific amendments and why the 1787 gathering was not the rogue event critics describe.
Then Troy Miller, president of National Religious Broadcasters, discusses the explosive growth of Christian media, why Gen Z and millennials are tuning in for biblical answers, and the upcoming NRB convention in Washington, D.C.
Finally, Pastor Troy Jackson of New Beginnings Church shares the heart behind his book Battle Tested, calling men to prayer, spiritual leadership at home, and courageous civic engagement in school boards, city councils, and the public square.
Live
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