Rob West: Financial loss can happen slowly, or all at once. A business closes, a home is lost, an investment collapses, a scam wipes out savings that took decades to build. Hi, I'm Rob West. When money disappears, the loss can reach far beyond the balance sheet. But scripture reminds us that while wealth can be lost, our true treasure cannot. Today, we'll look at three stories that can help us respond faithfully when financial loss comes. Then, we have lots of great listener questions ahead, but we won't be taking your live calls today because this program is pre-recorded. This is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio. Biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Few people in scripture understood loss like Job. In a remarkably short span of time, his possessions, livelihood, and children were taken from him. Job grieved deeply. He tore his robe, he wept, he asked hard questions. But the Bible never suggests that faith requires us to pretend loss doesn't hurt. But Job also shows us something important about where his confidence ultimately rested. In Job 31:24–28, he reflects on the possibility of putting his security in wealth:
"Have I put my trust in money or felt secure because of my gold? Have I gloated about my wealth and all that I own? If so, I should be punished by the judges, for it would mean I had denied the God of heaven."
That is powerful because scripture notes Job as one of the wealthiest among all the people of the East. His possessions were real blessings, and losing them was a real tragedy. Yet, even before they disappeared, Job understood that wealth was never worthy of carrying the weight of his hope.
Financial loss often reveals what prosperity can conceal. We may say our security is in God, but a collapsing account balance can expose how much security we were actually drawing from the account. So when loss comes, the first question may not be, "How quickly can I get this money back?" It may be, "Lord, what have I been trusting to do what only You can do?" That doesn't mean we stop rebuilding; it means we rebuild on the right foundation.
Horatio Spafford knew something about that kind of rebuilding. He was a successful Chicago attorney and real estate investor who suffered major financial losses around the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. Then, two years later, tragedy struck at a level money could never measure. His wife and four daughters were crossing the Atlantic when their ship collided with another vessel. His wife survived, but their four daughters did not. Spafford soon crossed the Atlantic to join his grieving wife, and in that devastating context, he wrote the hymn we still sing today, "It Is Well with My Soul," as he passed near the spot where his daughters perished.
Notice what he did not say. He didn't say everything was well—it wasn't. Christian peace is not the denial of loss; it's the assurance that loss does not have the final word. That matters when you've been scammed, when the business fails, when retirement savings disappear, or when the house you thought you would grow old in is gone. You can grieve what was lost without believing that you have lost everything.
And that brings us to the story of young John Wesley. When he was only five years old, an angry group believed to be hostile toward his father set fire to the Epworth Rectory in England. John became trapped on the second floor as the flames spread. With no time for a ladder, neighbors climbed onto one another's shoulders and pulled him through a window just before the roof collapsed into the room. The house and nearly everything in it was lost, but Wesley later remembered his father gathering the neighbors and saying, "Let us give thanks to God. He has given me all eight children. Let the house go, I am rich enough."
"I am rich enough." That is a radically different definition of wealth. Financial loss has a way of forcing us to take inventory, and sometimes, after the numbers have changed dramatically, we discover that the greatest riches were never held in an account to begin with. We still belong to Christ, we still have His promises, we still have His people, we still have work to do, people to love, opportunities to give, and a kingdom that cannot be shaken.
So if you're walking through financial loss today, give yourself permission to grieve. Ask the Lord to reveal where your trust is placed, seek wise counsel, and take the next faithful step toward rebuilding. But do not measure your life solely by what disappeared. Financial loss is real, and it's right to grieve what was lost. But when our circumstances have been shaken, our ultimate treasure remains anchored in Christ, and what we have in Him can never be taken away.
As I said, we're off today, so don't call in, but we've got some great calls lined up in advance, so we'll go to those just around the corner. I'm Rob West, and this is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio. Biblical wisdom for your financial journey. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: Thanks for joining us today on Faith & Finance here on American Family Radio. I'm Rob West. All right, let's head to Illinois. Nova, how can I help?
Nova: Hi. Yeah, thank you. I actually spoke to you before in 2022. I was struggling financially before my back surgeries because I don't have any family and I reached out to all of them, and you ended up getting me connected, and I don't know where I would be today without that assistance before those back surgeries. So thank you for that.
Rob West: That's incredible! Yeah, so did listener—I believe I remember your call several years ago. Did listeners reach out and end up helping assist you?
Nova: They did. Yes! I actually spoke with a lovely charity that got in touch with me and just provided more than I could have even imagined in assistance to help make sure that I didn't become homeless and that I could recover from my surgeries without having to worry. So praise Jesus for that.
Rob West: Nova, that is amazing. Yeah, that would have been Helping Hands. And now that you say that, I remember exactly the situation. So I am so thrilled to hear from you. So you're doing better health-wise?
Nova: I am. You know, I'm in chronic pain, but praise the Lord, the surgeries have allowed it so that I can survive, you know. So, and praise Michelle at Helping Hands, cuz, you know, just everything. But I did have a couple questions if you have time.
Rob West: Sure, go ahead.
Nova: Seriously. So, I'm doing a lot better today. My question for you today is that I opened an LLC three or four years ago as a photography business, and I never used it. And so I never filed taxes on it. And so now, it's been dissolved since January, and my focus has been starting my own non-profit, which I have successfully done, which is exciting. But now I just got married, and we're hoping to start some DBAs, but I just discovered my LLC's dissolved because of the tax situation. So I know it would cost the $75 filing fee for each year of the taxes I was supposed to do, and then probably a reinstatement fee to make the former LLC active. And then I think the cheaper route would just be to make a new LLC and do the DBAs under there, but then I'd lose that length of establishment of my business. But my question is, with my non-profit and the DBAs under a new LLC, would the dissolved LLC haunt me at all?
Rob West: Yeah. So, you know, often when somebody does have an LLC and they have operated under it, and then they haven't reported for a while, by when it gets dissolved, if there is something owed—you know, there was tax returns that were not filed that should have been—just by ignoring it and starting a new one doesn't make those go away. And so you need to get in compliance and then decide is it better to just reinstate it and continue or to start something new because something has materially changed with the business. But it doesn't make those penalties go away. Now, in your case, because it sounds like you really never operated anything under that business, you know, that changes things quite a bit. And so in most cases, if you never operated the business, never made any money, never really used the LLC, then you probably didn't have a federal tax filing requirement at all. And the LLC is essentially what's called disregarded for tax purposes. And so then the state probably just dissolved it for missing the annual registrations, not because of IRS taxes, although you'll want to verify that. So in terms of what to do moving forward, since you never used it, you know, I think many advisors would lean toward starting a new LLC if the old one, you know, if there was nothing really associated with it—there's no brand, there's no contracts, there's no EIN history, it was never funded or operational—it's often cheaper and cleaner just to start a new one. You know, I would think the only reason you'd want to reinstate it would be if you wanted the same business name or the reinstatement costs were minimal, or there's some legal reason to keep continuity. Otherwise, there's really no advantage to reviving an unused entity. So did you ever get an EIN?
Nova: I did, yeah. I actually paid a third party to set up the LLC because I didn't know it was so easy to do on your own. So they filed all this stuff for me, and then that was it.
Rob West: Okay. And did the IRS send any filing notices?
Nova: No.
Rob West: Okay. And you never really operated anything or made any money under it, is that right?
Nova: Yeah, that's right.
Rob West: Okay. So in that case, you know, I think what you're facing here is, you know, if you have an EIN but never did business, never had any income, haven't received any IRS filing notices, then it's likely just a state compliance issue, not a federal tax issue whatsoever. And so the EIN by itself doesn't create a filing requirement. What determines the IRS filings is whether or not you elected an S-corp status. But if there was no activity, then there usually isn't any kind of separate federal tax return required. So, you know, I would say given what you've said, in many cases, it's cleaner and even cheaper just to start a brand new LLC instead of paying any kind of state penalties to revive an unused one.
Nova: Okay, awesome! Thank you. And then I did have a second question if you had time.
Rob West: Okay, sure. Go ahead.
Nova: So I did start a non-profit, and so I'm just getting started. I'm plugged in with a couple other non-profits in my area for networking purposes. But I was wondering if you had like a best route to raise awareness and seek out grants to support the non-profit.
Rob West: Yeah. What type of non-profit is it?
Nova: It'll be providing carefully curated care packages to the unhoused.
Rob West: Okay, got it. Yeah, you know, I think I love the fact that you're networking with other non-profits. It sounds like a great mission. You know, I would say the next step is to get that 501(c)(3) approval letter from the IRS. Make sure you have a clear mission statement, board of directors, a basic budget, and an impact plan. And then I would say, you know, at that point, you could start looking for grants. Do you have 501(c)(3) status yet?
Nova: So, I have non-profit status...
Rob West: So it should—did you—you have—you should have an approval letter from the Internal Revenue Service that says you've that they've granted 501(c)(3) status.
Nova: Okay. I think I don't think I have that. I went through the Secretary of State and just got approval as a non-profit. But I think the IRS is going to be a separate...
Rob West: Yeah, I mean that that's a pretty lengthy process to kind of fill out that application. I would get with a CPA, somebody who has some experience in that. Because, you know, normally what you do is you file the articles of incorporation to establish the business, and then you you seek the IRS 501(c)(3) approval, which makes you eligible for charitable contributions. But you're going to have to have a board of directors, you're going to have to have, you know, a number of things on there when you file. And that's going to generally take 3 to 6 months to get back from the IRS. But you're going to need that before you start looking for government grants, foundation and private grants, things like that. And there are a bunch of databases and directories out there where you could, you know, search terms like "homeless outreach" or "community services." Those grants take time, and there's a lot of paperwork involved. But the starting place is to get that IRS non-profit determination.
Nova: Gotcha. All right, that's so helpful. Thank you so much.
Rob West: You are welcome, Nova. Well, thanks so much for your call, and I'm so delighted to hear that God's working in your life and that we had a small part in it.
Nova: Yeah, you definitely did. Thank you so much, and God bless.
Rob West: All right, God bless you, too. Back with much more on Faith & Finance. Stay with us.
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Rob West: God owns it all. We're stewards of His resources, which makes money a tool to accomplish His purposes. Hi, I'm Rob West. This is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio, looking at our financial decisions through the lens of a biblical worldview. That means going to the source, God's Word, to draw our principles and thoughts related to handling His money. Let's go to Wilmington, North Carolina. Sonia, how can I help?
Sonia: Thank you for taking my call today.
Rob West: Yes, ma'am.
Sonia: I am 56, getting ready to turn 56, don't have much of a 401(k) to speak of, and am very much, um—I've got some credit card debt that is high interest, and am interested in doing some debt reconciliation so that I can try to start saving for the future and also, um, honor God in the way that I'm wanting to.
Rob West: Mm, yeah. Well, I appreciate that, and I'm glad to hear that you want to make a move toward getting out of debt. Uh, give me just kind of a rundown of the debt that you have.
Sonia: Um, I have like three credit cards. So I have, um, one that's like $8,000, one that's like $5,000, and one that's like $800. Then I also have, um, a home that within two years I'll have paid off, with a very low payment at this time, um, very affordable. I do have a car payment that's pretty high, higher than my mortgage payment. And then I have, um, my other bill is I recently had to, um, finance a heating and air conditioning unit.
Rob West: Mm, yeah.
Sonia: And so that's about $6,000.
Rob West: Okay, very good. And, uh, in terms of the credit cards, are you current on the minimum payments?
Sonia: Oh, absolutely. And I try to pay more each month. It's just such the high interest rates that I can't seem to dig myself out.
Rob West: Yeah, very good. Yeah, this is where Christian Credit Counselors would really shine. You know, my preferred way, Sonia, of getting out of credit card debt once and for all, and paying it off, you know, quickly and with as little interest as possible, is what's called credit counseling or debt management. Different than debt consolidation. So normally when somebody says debt consolidation, they're talking about a new loan that they take out to roll up the other loans and pay off the creditors. Um, there's a variety of reasons that I don't like that. But my preferred approach is something called debt management. So essentially what would happen is you would contact our friends at Christian Credit Counselors. They would then contact your creditors on your behalf. Each of the creditors that you're with have a what's called a credit counseling program. You can only access it through a non-profit credit counseling agency like Christian Credit Counselors. The benefit is, as soon as it moves over to that other department, the interest rate drops. So instead of an average of 20 to 30%, you're going to be an average of 0 to 10%. And you're going to make one level payment, probably very close to what you're already paying right now. And the combination of that level payment every month, not one that goes down as the balances come down, but one that stays level, plus the interest rate reduction, you're going to pay that back on average 80% faster, typically three to five years. But they're also going to help you set up a budget so that once you get out of debt, you don't ever go back. And that's really going to be the key. Um, so that's going to be my preferred way for you to go. You can find them online at faithfi.com/ccc. That's faithfi.com/ccc. Does that make sense?
Sonia: Absolutely, that makes a lot of sense, and I really do appreciate your time today.
Rob West: Absolutely, happy to do it. And if we can help further, don't hesitate to reach out. But Christian Credit Counselors will take good care of you. Thanks for your call today. Let's go to Missouri. Derek, how can I help?
Derek: Hey, Rob. How are you?
Rob West: Great, thanks for your call.
Derek: Good deal. Hey, I'll make this quick. So, my question is, if you have a pension plan and you can get a lump sum or a monthly payment, um, and let's say you're doing really good with your 401(k), which I am, should you take that lump sum and invest that or just do the like the monthly payment you'd get from your pension?
Rob West: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. You know, this is a classic situation, um, and it's one of the biggest decisions a person can make because once the choice is made, it's irreversible. The lump sum, the benefit is that it gives you the control and the flexibility, also the inheritance potential and the ability to invest the money. And to your point, the market's done well, and so, you know, arguably we're leaving something on the table by, you know, just converting that to an income stream. But it also shifts all the investment and what's called longevity risk to you as the retiree. The monthly pension, on the other hand, provides that guaranteed lifetime income. It's simple, and it's protection against outliving your assets. So the key question really comes down to: do you value control more or guaranteed income more? A few other factors that you'd also want to consider would be health and life expectancy, um, whether there's a spouse involved, and if so, you know, is the the monthly payout going to extend just for your life or is it your life plus your spouse, other retirement income that you have, comfort managing investments or hiring someone to do that. And, you know, those are going to be the big issues. So, for example, someone with, you know, strong other assets and investing discipline may prefer the lump sum because you've got full access to the money, you're in control. Someone worried about market risk or outliving their savings may prefer the guaranteed monthly income because they know that, all right, at least this income plus Social Security, I know my bills are covered, I've got an inflation adjustment, and that gives me peace of mind. So, I you know, I think those are really the key ideas here. I kind of, you know, tend to favor the lump sum, all things being equal, because you've got the money, you get the full investment return, you manage the risk through the investment strategy and diversification, you get full access to the money if you need it, and you get 100% of the money at death to give or pass on to an inheritance or both. But at the end of the day, you know, your best decision is going to come out of a thoughtful and disciplined planning process, which means, you know, you may be well-served to visit with a Certified Kingdom Advisor for a few hours and do a financial plan. Does that make sense?
Derek: Makes perfect sense.
Rob West: Yeah. So I think, you know, unless the decision becomes obvious based on what I've said, I think your next step could be to reach out to a Certified Kingdom Advisor there in Missouri and have somebody just sit down with you, you know, just pay them for their time, and just kind of run through some scenarios looking at your total financial picture, your other assets, the income needs you're going to have in retirement, how each of these assets are going to fill that, and which ultimately would be better for you, whether it's the lump sum or the pension. There's pros and cons, and that's where I think planning could really help to identify the best option. Thanks for your call. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: So thankful to have you with us today on Faith and Finance as we provide a hopeful, encouraging, biblical message of financial decision-making. You know, it's all about looking through the lens of Scripture, holding what God has entrusted to us loosely so we can give generously. I would submit that's the primary purpose for which God has entrusted resources to us, clearly to provide for ourselves and our families. But I think so often we get stuck in an endless list of needs and wants, never getting beyond that to the opportunity to serve those on our path and be generous, supporting the work of the Lord. Think about that today as you consider your role as a steward in managing God's money. Uh, let's go to Tennessee. Dana, how can I help you?
Dana: Yeah, thanks for your time and thanks for taking my call. So my question is, um, as of January 1st of 2027, um, I will be fully uh invested that I can retire and get my full benefit. Meanwhile, um, I can't make up uh in terms of money wise, I can't make over around $65,000. Anything over $65,000, then I would have to pay uh uh $1 per $2.
Rob West: Yeah.
Dana: Now, the only income I would be having would be uh me working, right, which wouldn't be over $65,000. However, I learned that if I have a 401(k), that the 401(k) would be counted as income. So my question is, how can I eliminate that as being counted as income so that I can not go over the threshold of $65,000?
Rob West: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's a great question and one that a lot of people think about. The 401(k) withdrawal does not count as earned income for the Social Security earnings test. So for the Social Security earnings test, they're only looking at wages from a job, so W-2 income, and net earnings from self-employment. It does not include 401(k) withdrawals, IRA withdrawals, pension income, annuity income, investment income, capital gains. So if you are under full retirement age and receiving Social Security, taking, you know, money from a 401(k) is not going to reduce that Social Security benefit under the earnings test. Does that make sense?
Dana: That makes sense. So so that I'm clear, what you're saying is the only income that they will be counting then if I'm working would be whatever my work income is, which is not over $40—which is not over the $65,000 threshold, then I wouldn't—I don't have to worry about the 401(k) because that would not be counted as wages, right?
Rob West: That is correct, yes. And, you know, in the year—yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Dana: The reason I'm asking that, that's very important because when I called Social Security today, they said whatever whatever whatever uh the wages that they had on my reported on my on my W-2.
Rob West: Yes.
Dana: And and I think that—
Rob West: But but wages is the key there, and a 401(k) withdrawal is not wages. So wages from a job is W-2 income. It does not count uh taxable withdrawals. Now, uh what you do have to be careful of is, you know, it could cause more of your Social Security to become taxable because it is taxable income. It could increase your Medicare premiums and push you into a higher bracket, but it will not count toward the earnings test specifically related to the earnings cap in the year you turn full retirement age. The 401(k) withdrawal is not wages.
Dana: But would the 401(k) by itself though be counted as income, though? Even though I understand it's taxable, it's taxable if I withdraw, I understand that. Anytime I withdraw from a 401(k), that's taxable, I have to pay on it, okay. Um, I wanted to make sure that that my 401(k) is not would not be looked at as as income taxable that's a part of my overall income.
Rob West: Yeah. Yeah. So, taxable income is the portion of your income the IRS taxes after deductions are applied, okay? And so, for retirees, your taxable income can include Social Security, a portion of it may be taxable, 401(k) and IRA withdrawals, pension income, wages from work, interest and dividends—all of those things are taxable income in that they're subject to federal income tax after deductions and adjustments. So that's the first thing. So, would your 401(k) withdrawals be taxable income subject to federal income tax after deductions? The answer is yes. Separate from that, though, is this question around an earnings limit prior to you reaching full retirement age. And in the year you turn full retirement age up until your birthday, you have a limit of what you can earn, and above that, you're going to start to see a reduction in your in your Social Security benefit. That only counts wages, not all taxable income. So, the only things that apply toward that earnings limit that would involve a reduction in your benefit is wages, W-2 income, and self-employment income. It does not include other forms of taxable income, including 401(k) withdrawals.
Dana: Okay. Okay. Okay, that's what I wanted to know, that earnings test. That's the part that kind of confused me on because I'm like, man, you know, I've got to I've got to wait till I get till I get 67 then because there's no limit then.
Rob West: Yeah, only wages. And and 401(k) withdrawals are not wages. So, that that I think is the the clarifier that you needed. So, hey, Dana, all the best to you. Congratulations on nearing retirement, and uh I'm sure God has a lot planned for you in this next season of life. But I certainly appreciate you being a part of the program today. Lord bless you, my friend. This is Faith and Finance on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: Well, it's great to have you with us today on Faith & Finance. By the way, if you've not checked out our website recently, we'd love for you to do that. The wealth of content, articles, podcasts, and videos there to help you be a wise and faithful steward of God's money is incredible. You'll find it all at faithfi.com. You can visit that on your smartphone or on your desktop. Again, faithfi.com, just click the content button. Also, while you're there, check out the FaithFi app that can help you manage God's money and access all of this great content on the go. Just click the app tab. Again, it's all at faithfi.com. Let's head to Michigan. Tom, thanks for listening in the app. Go ahead, sir.
Tom: I called my 401(k) company today. I'm retired, and I need some of the money. They told me I can't get any of the money unless I roll all of it into an IRA. So I'm wondering, can they actually say, "Hey, we can't give you your money unless you put it in an IRA"? Should I open that IRA with them, or can I go to roll it over to, say, a Vanguard or fidelity? Is there anything I should know when I move my money over to an IRA in this manner? Because I need the money.
Rob West: Yeah, great question. Yeah, I understand. So it's a traditional 401(k), and they're encouraging you to roll it to a traditional IRA, correct?
Tom: Right. They say if you don't roll it over, no money for you.
Rob West: Yeah. And you're saying, "I don't want to roll it to a traditional IRA. I actually want to take a distribution. I want to take a withdrawal." Is that correct?
Tom: Yeah, just a fraction, like 4%.
Rob West: Okay. Yeah, and did you tell them that, and they're refusing to let you take a distribution—a taxable distribution?
Tom: Correct.
Rob West: Okay. Yeah, that's a little confusing. I mean, you could very easily go ahead, unless it's a timing issue, then you could go ahead and roll it to the IRA if that's ultimately what you want to do. And I would recommend that. If you've separated from service, you'll have a lot more control over the fees and the management in the IRA. You'll also have a lot more access to other investments. In the 401(k), you're limited to that menu, which is kind of nice when you're doing it yourself because it takes a lot of the guesswork out. But once you have spent a lifetime accumulating your nest egg, you likely want to have an advisor manage that for you for tax efficiency and to select the right investments for you, and be really thoughtful about how that's managed, including the withdrawals that you need to take to support your lifestyle in this season of life. So if you were going to do that, you could go ahead and roll it out to the IRA and then take the distribution there. But if you need the money, and it's a timing issue, then you should be able to take that withdrawal. In terms of maybe—are they saying it's because you've separated that they will only allow the direct rollover?
Tom: You know, he didn't say. He just said that's one of the rules of the plan. You can't take any money out of the 401(k).
Rob West: Huh. Yeah, so I mean, that's a little interesting. I would probably escalate that to somebody else in terms of somebody at a higher level, because you should be able to take a distribution. I mean, it's going to be taxable and all of that, and they would normally withhold a certain amount. They may even require you to withhold a certain amount that gets sent directly to the IRS, and then you just settle up with the IRS after the fact. But I would say, if you need the money, it could be that at the end of the day, the plan just doesn't permit periodic withdrawals even though you're a former employee. And if that's the case, then you would just need to quickly move to roll it to an IRA, and then you could easily take the withdrawal at that point. Do you have a plan for the rest of the money, where it's going to be managed beyond this point?
Tom: Well, I've been doing exceptionally well just in an S&P 500 index fund, so I'm happy.
Rob West: Okay, yeah. And obviously, the overall market has done exceptionally well. I think the question would just be, if we get into a more typical environment down the road, depending on the season of life you're in, if you're moving into more of a retirement mode, do you want to be fully allocated to the stock market? If the market was down 20 or 30 percent and your portfolio was down with it, would that be a concern to you? Would you be able to wait that out? Typically, when the market's going great, we're fully allocated to stocks and we love it. When we see more volatility, or we get into a recession, or we have a downturn, I wouldn't want you to have to try to time the market. I'd want to make sure we use diversification and asset classes, like introducing fixed income, to allow you to stay fully invested, but not have as much downside as maybe the market was. You do that by adding some bond and fixed-income exposure. That might be the only thing I would think about, and that would be where an advisor would really be very helpful and effective. But I think at the end of the day, going back to the original question, if they're saying the plan doesn't allow flexible, periodic withdrawals, and therefore you need to either leave it untouched, take out a lump sum, or roll it to an IRA—the only way you're going to get a partial withdrawal is to roll it out. Then either do that in such a way where you continue to manage it yourself—maybe you roll it to a retail IRA at Fidelity or Schwab—or you go ahead and find that advisor that is going to manage this for you longer term in good markets and in bad, and then roll it to that advisor's custody wherever he or she custodies their assets. But that may be what's required for you to do this flexible withdrawal.
Tom: Okay, great advice. We'll do that. Thank you.
Rob West: Excellent. Yeah, appreciate your call, Tom, and all the best to you in the days ahead. Thanks for listening and calling today. Florida, Michelle, go ahead.
Michelle: Yes. Hi, how are you doing today?
Rob West: Great. Thanks for your call.
Michelle: Thank you. So my question is in regards to—my husband and I, we have a baby. She's one year old, and we have a baby on the way. So thank you. We're looking forward to that.
Rob West: Congratulations!
Michelle: Yeah, thank you. Very exciting. But our question is in regards to our finances. We have a couple of grand in debt, and I'm a stay-at-home mom, and my husband is a full-time physical education coach. We're just trying to navigate new life. We've been married for two years, and we're trying to figure out exactly how to see if he should get a second job, if I should get another job, how to navigate that with church life and all that.
Rob West: Yeah, yeah. Listen, I know how challenging this is, and I love the fact that you want to stay home, and you've got a growing family, and the Lord has blessed you with that. You're trying to manage the family finances on a modest income, and he's also wanting to be present and home with you and the kids. Your family's going to grow and get older, and then you're going to have more activities, and life's going to get busier. And so I think the first question is: Is the debt a temporary cash flow problem or a fundamentally unsustainable budget? I think that's really an important question, because with one income, one child, and another one on the way, there's a very common pressure point, especially with rising childcare, housing, groceries, and medical costs. So a second job temporarily could make sense if we've got debt that we need to take care of, or you're using cards for essentials—that's clearly a problem, there's no emergency cushion. But before I'd add 10, 20 hours more a week, I'd look at really four things:
Number one, how can I stop the bleeding? Figure out your total monthly income, your total minimum debt payments, and whether you're running a monthly deficit. If expenses exceed income every month, the problem won't solve itself without either more income, lower expenses, or debt restructuring.
Then we need to prioritize the essential expenses first: housing, utilities, food, transportation, insurance. Unsecured debts like credit cards come right with that.
Then consider whether the income can increase in the least disruptive way possible. Could there be a little bit of overtime, or is there a higher-paying primary job, or maybe it's weekend gig work or something that's flexible? Because with a newborn coming, burnout becomes a real issue.
We've got to look at what other debt structures could help here. If we get into a debt management program to get the interest rates down, could you in 3 to 5 years get out from under that and right-size the budget? If so, that would be great.
So I think the goal is to create a stable plan that survives after the baby arrives, and make sure that we're not leading him toward burnout or robbing him of precious family time, unless it's just a very temporary situation that allows you all to get your feet under you, get out from under this debt, and then he backs it down and right-sizes it to something that's more sustainable long-term. Michelle, I'd be happy to provide you all with a gift from FaithFi, where we would cover the expense of a Certified Christian Financial Counselor meeting with you all a few times virtually to work on your budget, help you come up with a spending plan, and look at whether some additional work for a period of time could get you to a place where you could right-size it and be more sustainable. But I think that's what it's going to take to make sure that we're not just trying to put a Band-Aid on something that really is not going to work longer-term. Does that make sense?
Michelle: Yes, that makes very good sense. Yes.
Rob West: Okay. Would you be willing to meet with a Certified Financial Counselor, you and your husband?
Michelle: Yes, that would be great.
Rob West: Okay, great. We'll pick up the tab for it, so it's our gift to you, Michelle. That'll allow you guys to get a plan together, meet with somebody, and they'll pray with you. I mean, this is what they do. They're trained to be stewardship counselors. They'll look at your budget, they'll help you figure out what are those budget busters that maybe can be right-sized, how do we deal with the debt, what kind of income increase do we need and is it temporary or is it long-term, and hopefully get you guys on a more solid financial footing. So stay on the line, we'll get your information and get somebody connected with you, and we'll cover the cost. Thanks for calling today.
Folks, thanks for being along with us today. I'm Rob West, and on behalf of my team today—producer Devin Patrick, call screener Pat Montague, researcher Jim Henry—I'm Rob West. This has been Faith & Finance here on American Family Radio. We're so grateful for our partnership with AFR, bringing you biblical wisdom as it relates to financial decision-making. Have a great day, and if you want to check out our website, go to faithfi.com. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
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Rob West: Financial loss can happen slowly, or all at once. A business closes, a home is lost, an investment collapses, a scam wipes out savings that took decades to build. Hi, I'm Rob West. When money disappears, the loss can reach far beyond the balance sheet. But scripture reminds us that while wealth can be lost, our true treasure cannot. Today, we'll look at three stories that can help us respond faithfully when financial loss comes. Then, we have lots of great listener questions ahead, but we won't be taking your live calls today because this program is pre-recorded. This is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio. Biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Few people in scripture understood loss like Job. In a remarkably short span of time, his possessions, livelihood, and children were taken from him. Job grieved deeply. He tore his robe, he wept, he asked hard questions. But the Bible never suggests that faith requires us to pretend loss doesn't hurt. But Job also shows us something important about where his confidence ultimately rested. In Job 31:24–28, he reflects on the possibility of putting his security in wealth:
"Have I put my trust in money or felt secure because of my gold? Have I gloated about my wealth and all that I own? If so, I should be punished by the judges, for it would mean I had denied the God of heaven."
That is powerful because scripture notes Job as one of the wealthiest among all the people of the East. His possessions were real blessings, and losing them was a real tragedy. Yet, even before they disappeared, Job understood that wealth was never worthy of carrying the weight of his hope.
Financial loss often reveals what prosperity can conceal. We may say our security is in God, but a collapsing account balance can expose how much security we were actually drawing from the account. So when loss comes, the first question may not be, "How quickly can I get this money back?" It may be, "Lord, what have I been trusting to do what only You can do?" That doesn't mean we stop rebuilding; it means we rebuild on the right foundation.
Horatio Spafford knew something about that kind of rebuilding. He was a successful Chicago attorney and real estate investor who suffered major financial losses around the Great Chicago Fire of 1871. Then, two years later, tragedy struck at a level money could never measure. His wife and four daughters were crossing the Atlantic when their ship collided with another vessel. His wife survived, but their four daughters did not. Spafford soon crossed the Atlantic to join his grieving wife, and in that devastating context, he wrote the hymn we still sing today, "It Is Well with My Soul," as he passed near the spot where his daughters perished.
Notice what he did not say. He didn't say everything was well—it wasn't. Christian peace is not the denial of loss; it's the assurance that loss does not have the final word. That matters when you've been scammed, when the business fails, when retirement savings disappear, or when the house you thought you would grow old in is gone. You can grieve what was lost without believing that you have lost everything.
And that brings us to the story of young John Wesley. When he was only five years old, an angry group believed to be hostile toward his father set fire to the Epworth Rectory in England. John became trapped on the second floor as the flames spread. With no time for a ladder, neighbors climbed onto one another's shoulders and pulled him through a window just before the roof collapsed into the room. The house and nearly everything in it was lost, but Wesley later remembered his father gathering the neighbors and saying, "Let us give thanks to God. He has given me all eight children. Let the house go, I am rich enough."
"I am rich enough." That is a radically different definition of wealth. Financial loss has a way of forcing us to take inventory, and sometimes, after the numbers have changed dramatically, we discover that the greatest riches were never held in an account to begin with. We still belong to Christ, we still have His promises, we still have His people, we still have work to do, people to love, opportunities to give, and a kingdom that cannot be shaken.
So if you're walking through financial loss today, give yourself permission to grieve. Ask the Lord to reveal where your trust is placed, seek wise counsel, and take the next faithful step toward rebuilding. But do not measure your life solely by what disappeared. Financial loss is real, and it's right to grieve what was lost. But when our circumstances have been shaken, our ultimate treasure remains anchored in Christ, and what we have in Him can never be taken away.
As I said, we're off today, so don't call in, but we've got some great calls lined up in advance, so we'll go to those just around the corner. I'm Rob West, and this is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio. Biblical wisdom for your financial journey. We'll be right back.
David Wollen: For your walk with Jesus, I'm David Wollen with Haven Today, inviting you to anchor your day in God's word. When Jesus sent out his disciples for the first time to preach the good news, he knew soon they would be experiencing the fear of man. Perhaps that's why he told them, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell." But Jesus didn't stop there, he continued, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet, not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care." And for every child of God, these truths go together. We should fear God, but we don't have to be afraid. Our courage will come directly from God himself. Get more encouragement for your walk, visit haventoday.org.
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Rob West: Thanks for joining us today on Faith & Finance here on American Family Radio. I'm Rob West. All right, let's head to Illinois. Nova, how can I help?
Nova: Hi. Yeah, thank you. I actually spoke to you before in 2022. I was struggling financially before my back surgeries because I don't have any family and I reached out to all of them, and you ended up getting me connected, and I don't know where I would be today without that assistance before those back surgeries. So thank you for that.
Rob West: That's incredible! Yeah, so did listener—I believe I remember your call several years ago. Did listeners reach out and end up helping assist you?
Nova: They did. Yes! I actually spoke with a lovely charity that got in touch with me and just provided more than I could have even imagined in assistance to help make sure that I didn't become homeless and that I could recover from my surgeries without having to worry. So praise Jesus for that.
Rob West: Nova, that is amazing. Yeah, that would have been Helping Hands. And now that you say that, I remember exactly the situation. So I am so thrilled to hear from you. So you're doing better health-wise?
Nova: I am. You know, I'm in chronic pain, but praise the Lord, the surgeries have allowed it so that I can survive, you know. So, and praise Michelle at Helping Hands, cuz, you know, just everything. But I did have a couple questions if you have time.
Rob West: Sure, go ahead.
Nova: Seriously. So, I'm doing a lot better today. My question for you today is that I opened an LLC three or four years ago as a photography business, and I never used it. And so I never filed taxes on it. And so now, it's been dissolved since January, and my focus has been starting my own non-profit, which I have successfully done, which is exciting. But now I just got married, and we're hoping to start some DBAs, but I just discovered my LLC's dissolved because of the tax situation. So I know it would cost the $75 filing fee for each year of the taxes I was supposed to do, and then probably a reinstatement fee to make the former LLC active. And then I think the cheaper route would just be to make a new LLC and do the DBAs under there, but then I'd lose that length of establishment of my business. But my question is, with my non-profit and the DBAs under a new LLC, would the dissolved LLC haunt me at all?
Rob West: Yeah. So, you know, often when somebody does have an LLC and they have operated under it, and then they haven't reported for a while, by when it gets dissolved, if there is something owed—you know, there was tax returns that were not filed that should have been—just by ignoring it and starting a new one doesn't make those go away. And so you need to get in compliance and then decide is it better to just reinstate it and continue or to start something new because something has materially changed with the business. But it doesn't make those penalties go away. Now, in your case, because it sounds like you really never operated anything under that business, you know, that changes things quite a bit. And so in most cases, if you never operated the business, never made any money, never really used the LLC, then you probably didn't have a federal tax filing requirement at all. And the LLC is essentially what's called disregarded for tax purposes. And so then the state probably just dissolved it for missing the annual registrations, not because of IRS taxes, although you'll want to verify that. So in terms of what to do moving forward, since you never used it, you know, I think many advisors would lean toward starting a new LLC if the old one, you know, if there was nothing really associated with it—there's no brand, there's no contracts, there's no EIN history, it was never funded or operational—it's often cheaper and cleaner just to start a new one. You know, I would think the only reason you'd want to reinstate it would be if you wanted the same business name or the reinstatement costs were minimal, or there's some legal reason to keep continuity. Otherwise, there's really no advantage to reviving an unused entity. So did you ever get an EIN?
Nova: I did, yeah. I actually paid a third party to set up the LLC because I didn't know it was so easy to do on your own. So they filed all this stuff for me, and then that was it.
Rob West: Okay. And did the IRS send any filing notices?
Nova: No.
Rob West: Okay. And you never really operated anything or made any money under it, is that right?
Nova: Yeah, that's right.
Rob West: Okay. So in that case, you know, I think what you're facing here is, you know, if you have an EIN but never did business, never had any income, haven't received any IRS filing notices, then it's likely just a state compliance issue, not a federal tax issue whatsoever. And so the EIN by itself doesn't create a filing requirement. What determines the IRS filings is whether or not you elected an S-corp status. But if there was no activity, then there usually isn't any kind of separate federal tax return required. So, you know, I would say given what you've said, in many cases, it's cleaner and even cheaper just to start a brand new LLC instead of paying any kind of state penalties to revive an unused one.
Nova: Okay, awesome! Thank you. And then I did have a second question if you had time.
Rob West: Okay, sure. Go ahead.
Nova: So I did start a non-profit, and so I'm just getting started. I'm plugged in with a couple other non-profits in my area for networking purposes. But I was wondering if you had like a best route to raise awareness and seek out grants to support the non-profit.
Rob West: Yeah. What type of non-profit is it?
Nova: It'll be providing carefully curated care packages to the unhoused.
Rob West: Okay, got it. Yeah, you know, I think I love the fact that you're networking with other non-profits. It sounds like a great mission. You know, I would say the next step is to get that 501(c)(3) approval letter from the IRS. Make sure you have a clear mission statement, board of directors, a basic budget, and an impact plan. And then I would say, you know, at that point, you could start looking for grants. Do you have 501(c)(3) status yet?
Nova: So, I have non-profit status...
Rob West: So it should—did you—you have—you should have an approval letter from the Internal Revenue Service that says you've that they've granted 501(c)(3) status.
Nova: Okay. I think I don't think I have that. I went through the Secretary of State and just got approval as a non-profit. But I think the IRS is going to be a separate...
Rob West: Yeah, I mean that that's a pretty lengthy process to kind of fill out that application. I would get with a CPA, somebody who has some experience in that. Because, you know, normally what you do is you file the articles of incorporation to establish the business, and then you you seek the IRS 501(c)(3) approval, which makes you eligible for charitable contributions. But you're going to have to have a board of directors, you're going to have to have, you know, a number of things on there when you file. And that's going to generally take 3 to 6 months to get back from the IRS. But you're going to need that before you start looking for government grants, foundation and private grants, things like that. And there are a bunch of databases and directories out there where you could, you know, search terms like "homeless outreach" or "community services." Those grants take time, and there's a lot of paperwork involved. But the starting place is to get that IRS non-profit determination.
Nova: Gotcha. All right, that's so helpful. Thank you so much.
Rob West: You are welcome, Nova. Well, thanks so much for your call, and I'm so delighted to hear that God's working in your life and that we had a small part in it.
Nova: Yeah, you definitely did. Thank you so much, and God bless.
Rob West: All right, God bless you, too. Back with much more on Faith & Finance. Stay with us.
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Rob West: God owns it all. We're stewards of His resources, which makes money a tool to accomplish His purposes. Hi, I'm Rob West. This is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio, looking at our financial decisions through the lens of a biblical worldview. That means going to the source, God's Word, to draw our principles and thoughts related to handling His money. Let's go to Wilmington, North Carolina. Sonia, how can I help?
Sonia: Thank you for taking my call today.
Rob West: Yes, ma'am.
Sonia: I am 56, getting ready to turn 56, don't have much of a 401(k) to speak of, and am very much, um—I've got some credit card debt that is high interest, and am interested in doing some debt reconciliation so that I can try to start saving for the future and also, um, honor God in the way that I'm wanting to.
Rob West: Mm, yeah. Well, I appreciate that, and I'm glad to hear that you want to make a move toward getting out of debt. Uh, give me just kind of a rundown of the debt that you have.
Sonia: Um, I have like three credit cards. So I have, um, one that's like $8,000, one that's like $5,000, and one that's like $800. Then I also have, um, a home that within two years I'll have paid off, with a very low payment at this time, um, very affordable. I do have a car payment that's pretty high, higher than my mortgage payment. And then I have, um, my other bill is I recently had to, um, finance a heating and air conditioning unit.
Rob West: Mm, yeah.
Sonia: And so that's about $6,000.
Rob West: Okay, very good. And, uh, in terms of the credit cards, are you current on the minimum payments?
Sonia: Oh, absolutely. And I try to pay more each month. It's just such the high interest rates that I can't seem to dig myself out.
Rob West: Yeah, very good. Yeah, this is where Christian Credit Counselors would really shine. You know, my preferred way, Sonia, of getting out of credit card debt once and for all, and paying it off, you know, quickly and with as little interest as possible, is what's called credit counseling or debt management. Different than debt consolidation. So normally when somebody says debt consolidation, they're talking about a new loan that they take out to roll up the other loans and pay off the creditors. Um, there's a variety of reasons that I don't like that. But my preferred approach is something called debt management. So essentially what would happen is you would contact our friends at Christian Credit Counselors. They would then contact your creditors on your behalf. Each of the creditors that you're with have a what's called a credit counseling program. You can only access it through a non-profit credit counseling agency like Christian Credit Counselors. The benefit is, as soon as it moves over to that other department, the interest rate drops. So instead of an average of 20 to 30%, you're going to be an average of 0 to 10%. And you're going to make one level payment, probably very close to what you're already paying right now. And the combination of that level payment every month, not one that goes down as the balances come down, but one that stays level, plus the interest rate reduction, you're going to pay that back on average 80% faster, typically three to five years. But they're also going to help you set up a budget so that once you get out of debt, you don't ever go back. And that's really going to be the key. Um, so that's going to be my preferred way for you to go. You can find them online at faithfi.com/ccc. That's faithfi.com/ccc. Does that make sense?
Sonia: Absolutely, that makes a lot of sense, and I really do appreciate your time today.
Rob West: Absolutely, happy to do it. And if we can help further, don't hesitate to reach out. But Christian Credit Counselors will take good care of you. Thanks for your call today. Let's go to Missouri. Derek, how can I help?
Derek: Hey, Rob. How are you?
Rob West: Great, thanks for your call.
Derek: Good deal. Hey, I'll make this quick. So, my question is, if you have a pension plan and you can get a lump sum or a monthly payment, um, and let's say you're doing really good with your 401(k), which I am, should you take that lump sum and invest that or just do the like the monthly payment you'd get from your pension?
Rob West: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. You know, this is a classic situation, um, and it's one of the biggest decisions a person can make because once the choice is made, it's irreversible. The lump sum, the benefit is that it gives you the control and the flexibility, also the inheritance potential and the ability to invest the money. And to your point, the market's done well, and so, you know, arguably we're leaving something on the table by, you know, just converting that to an income stream. But it also shifts all the investment and what's called longevity risk to you as the retiree. The monthly pension, on the other hand, provides that guaranteed lifetime income. It's simple, and it's protection against outliving your assets. So the key question really comes down to: do you value control more or guaranteed income more? A few other factors that you'd also want to consider would be health and life expectancy, um, whether there's a spouse involved, and if so, you know, is the the monthly payout going to extend just for your life or is it your life plus your spouse, other retirement income that you have, comfort managing investments or hiring someone to do that. And, you know, those are going to be the big issues. So, for example, someone with, you know, strong other assets and investing discipline may prefer the lump sum because you've got full access to the money, you're in control. Someone worried about market risk or outliving their savings may prefer the guaranteed monthly income because they know that, all right, at least this income plus Social Security, I know my bills are covered, I've got an inflation adjustment, and that gives me peace of mind. So, I you know, I think those are really the key ideas here. I kind of, you know, tend to favor the lump sum, all things being equal, because you've got the money, you get the full investment return, you manage the risk through the investment strategy and diversification, you get full access to the money if you need it, and you get 100% of the money at death to give or pass on to an inheritance or both. But at the end of the day, you know, your best decision is going to come out of a thoughtful and disciplined planning process, which means, you know, you may be well-served to visit with a Certified Kingdom Advisor for a few hours and do a financial plan. Does that make sense?
Derek: Makes perfect sense.
Rob West: Yeah. So I think, you know, unless the decision becomes obvious based on what I've said, I think your next step could be to reach out to a Certified Kingdom Advisor there in Missouri and have somebody just sit down with you, you know, just pay them for their time, and just kind of run through some scenarios looking at your total financial picture, your other assets, the income needs you're going to have in retirement, how each of these assets are going to fill that, and which ultimately would be better for you, whether it's the lump sum or the pension. There's pros and cons, and that's where I think planning could really help to identify the best option. Thanks for your call. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: So thankful to have you with us today on Faith and Finance as we provide a hopeful, encouraging, biblical message of financial decision-making. You know, it's all about looking through the lens of Scripture, holding what God has entrusted to us loosely so we can give generously. I would submit that's the primary purpose for which God has entrusted resources to us, clearly to provide for ourselves and our families. But I think so often we get stuck in an endless list of needs and wants, never getting beyond that to the opportunity to serve those on our path and be generous, supporting the work of the Lord. Think about that today as you consider your role as a steward in managing God's money. Uh, let's go to Tennessee. Dana, how can I help you?
Dana: Yeah, thanks for your time and thanks for taking my call. So my question is, um, as of January 1st of 2027, um, I will be fully uh invested that I can retire and get my full benefit. Meanwhile, um, I can't make up uh in terms of money wise, I can't make over around $65,000. Anything over $65,000, then I would have to pay uh uh $1 per $2.
Rob West: Yeah.
Dana: Now, the only income I would be having would be uh me working, right, which wouldn't be over $65,000. However, I learned that if I have a 401(k), that the 401(k) would be counted as income. So my question is, how can I eliminate that as being counted as income so that I can not go over the threshold of $65,000?
Rob West: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's a great question and one that a lot of people think about. The 401(k) withdrawal does not count as earned income for the Social Security earnings test. So for the Social Security earnings test, they're only looking at wages from a job, so W-2 income, and net earnings from self-employment. It does not include 401(k) withdrawals, IRA withdrawals, pension income, annuity income, investment income, capital gains. So if you are under full retirement age and receiving Social Security, taking, you know, money from a 401(k) is not going to reduce that Social Security benefit under the earnings test. Does that make sense?
Dana: That makes sense. So so that I'm clear, what you're saying is the only income that they will be counting then if I'm working would be whatever my work income is, which is not over $40—which is not over the $65,000 threshold, then I wouldn't—I don't have to worry about the 401(k) because that would not be counted as wages, right?
Rob West: That is correct, yes. And, you know, in the year—yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Dana: The reason I'm asking that, that's very important because when I called Social Security today, they said whatever whatever whatever uh the wages that they had on my reported on my on my W-2.
Rob West: Yes.
Dana: And and I think that—
Rob West: But but wages is the key there, and a 401(k) withdrawal is not wages. So wages from a job is W-2 income. It does not count uh taxable withdrawals. Now, uh what you do have to be careful of is, you know, it could cause more of your Social Security to become taxable because it is taxable income. It could increase your Medicare premiums and push you into a higher bracket, but it will not count toward the earnings test specifically related to the earnings cap in the year you turn full retirement age. The 401(k) withdrawal is not wages.
Dana: But would the 401(k) by itself though be counted as income, though? Even though I understand it's taxable, it's taxable if I withdraw, I understand that. Anytime I withdraw from a 401(k), that's taxable, I have to pay on it, okay. Um, I wanted to make sure that that my 401(k) is not would not be looked at as as income taxable that's a part of my overall income.
Rob West: Yeah. Yeah. So, taxable income is the portion of your income the IRS taxes after deductions are applied, okay? And so, for retirees, your taxable income can include Social Security, a portion of it may be taxable, 401(k) and IRA withdrawals, pension income, wages from work, interest and dividends—all of those things are taxable income in that they're subject to federal income tax after deductions and adjustments. So that's the first thing. So, would your 401(k) withdrawals be taxable income subject to federal income tax after deductions? The answer is yes. Separate from that, though, is this question around an earnings limit prior to you reaching full retirement age. And in the year you turn full retirement age up until your birthday, you have a limit of what you can earn, and above that, you're going to start to see a reduction in your in your Social Security benefit. That only counts wages, not all taxable income. So, the only things that apply toward that earnings limit that would involve a reduction in your benefit is wages, W-2 income, and self-employment income. It does not include other forms of taxable income, including 401(k) withdrawals.
Dana: Okay. Okay. Okay, that's what I wanted to know, that earnings test. That's the part that kind of confused me on because I'm like, man, you know, I've got to I've got to wait till I get till I get 67 then because there's no limit then.
Rob West: Yeah, only wages. And and 401(k) withdrawals are not wages. So, that that I think is the the clarifier that you needed. So, hey, Dana, all the best to you. Congratulations on nearing retirement, and uh I'm sure God has a lot planned for you in this next season of life. But I certainly appreciate you being a part of the program today. Lord bless you, my friend. This is Faith and Finance on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: Well, it's great to have you with us today on Faith & Finance. By the way, if you've not checked out our website recently, we'd love for you to do that. The wealth of content, articles, podcasts, and videos there to help you be a wise and faithful steward of God's money is incredible. You'll find it all at faithfi.com. You can visit that on your smartphone or on your desktop. Again, faithfi.com, just click the content button. Also, while you're there, check out the FaithFi app that can help you manage God's money and access all of this great content on the go. Just click the app tab. Again, it's all at faithfi.com. Let's head to Michigan. Tom, thanks for listening in the app. Go ahead, sir.
Tom: I called my 401(k) company today. I'm retired, and I need some of the money. They told me I can't get any of the money unless I roll all of it into an IRA. So I'm wondering, can they actually say, "Hey, we can't give you your money unless you put it in an IRA"? Should I open that IRA with them, or can I go to roll it over to, say, a Vanguard or fidelity? Is there anything I should know when I move my money over to an IRA in this manner? Because I need the money.
Rob West: Yeah, great question. Yeah, I understand. So it's a traditional 401(k), and they're encouraging you to roll it to a traditional IRA, correct?
Tom: Right. They say if you don't roll it over, no money for you.
Rob West: Yeah. And you're saying, "I don't want to roll it to a traditional IRA. I actually want to take a distribution. I want to take a withdrawal." Is that correct?
Tom: Yeah, just a fraction, like 4%.
Rob West: Okay. Yeah, and did you tell them that, and they're refusing to let you take a distribution—a taxable distribution?
Tom: Correct.
Rob West: Okay. Yeah, that's a little confusing. I mean, you could very easily go ahead, unless it's a timing issue, then you could go ahead and roll it to the IRA if that's ultimately what you want to do. And I would recommend that. If you've separated from service, you'll have a lot more control over the fees and the management in the IRA. You'll also have a lot more access to other investments. In the 401(k), you're limited to that menu, which is kind of nice when you're doing it yourself because it takes a lot of the guesswork out. But once you have spent a lifetime accumulating your nest egg, you likely want to have an advisor manage that for you for tax efficiency and to select the right investments for you, and be really thoughtful about how that's managed, including the withdrawals that you need to take to support your lifestyle in this season of life. So if you were going to do that, you could go ahead and roll it out to the IRA and then take the distribution there. But if you need the money, and it's a timing issue, then you should be able to take that withdrawal. In terms of maybe—are they saying it's because you've separated that they will only allow the direct rollover?
Tom: You know, he didn't say. He just said that's one of the rules of the plan. You can't take any money out of the 401(k).
Rob West: Huh. Yeah, so I mean, that's a little interesting. I would probably escalate that to somebody else in terms of somebody at a higher level, because you should be able to take a distribution. I mean, it's going to be taxable and all of that, and they would normally withhold a certain amount. They may even require you to withhold a certain amount that gets sent directly to the IRS, and then you just settle up with the IRS after the fact. But I would say, if you need the money, it could be that at the end of the day, the plan just doesn't permit periodic withdrawals even though you're a former employee. And if that's the case, then you would just need to quickly move to roll it to an IRA, and then you could easily take the withdrawal at that point. Do you have a plan for the rest of the money, where it's going to be managed beyond this point?
Tom: Well, I've been doing exceptionally well just in an S&P 500 index fund, so I'm happy.
Rob West: Okay, yeah. And obviously, the overall market has done exceptionally well. I think the question would just be, if we get into a more typical environment down the road, depending on the season of life you're in, if you're moving into more of a retirement mode, do you want to be fully allocated to the stock market? If the market was down 20 or 30 percent and your portfolio was down with it, would that be a concern to you? Would you be able to wait that out? Typically, when the market's going great, we're fully allocated to stocks and we love it. When we see more volatility, or we get into a recession, or we have a downturn, I wouldn't want you to have to try to time the market. I'd want to make sure we use diversification and asset classes, like introducing fixed income, to allow you to stay fully invested, but not have as much downside as maybe the market was. You do that by adding some bond and fixed-income exposure. That might be the only thing I would think about, and that would be where an advisor would really be very helpful and effective. But I think at the end of the day, going back to the original question, if they're saying the plan doesn't allow flexible, periodic withdrawals, and therefore you need to either leave it untouched, take out a lump sum, or roll it to an IRA—the only way you're going to get a partial withdrawal is to roll it out. Then either do that in such a way where you continue to manage it yourself—maybe you roll it to a retail IRA at Fidelity or Schwab—or you go ahead and find that advisor that is going to manage this for you longer term in good markets and in bad, and then roll it to that advisor's custody wherever he or she custodies their assets. But that may be what's required for you to do this flexible withdrawal.
Tom: Okay, great advice. We'll do that. Thank you.
Rob West: Excellent. Yeah, appreciate your call, Tom, and all the best to you in the days ahead. Thanks for listening and calling today. Florida, Michelle, go ahead.
Michelle: Yes. Hi, how are you doing today?
Rob West: Great. Thanks for your call.
Michelle: Thank you. So my question is in regards to—my husband and I, we have a baby. She's one year old, and we have a baby on the way. So thank you. We're looking forward to that.
Rob West: Congratulations!
Michelle: Yeah, thank you. Very exciting. But our question is in regards to our finances. We have a couple of grand in debt, and I'm a stay-at-home mom, and my husband is a full-time physical education coach. We're just trying to navigate new life. We've been married for two years, and we're trying to figure out exactly how to see if he should get a second job, if I should get another job, how to navigate that with church life and all that.
Rob West: Yeah, yeah. Listen, I know how challenging this is, and I love the fact that you want to stay home, and you've got a growing family, and the Lord has blessed you with that. You're trying to manage the family finances on a modest income, and he's also wanting to be present and home with you and the kids. Your family's going to grow and get older, and then you're going to have more activities, and life's going to get busier. And so I think the first question is: Is the debt a temporary cash flow problem or a fundamentally unsustainable budget? I think that's really an important question, because with one income, one child, and another one on the way, there's a very common pressure point, especially with rising childcare, housing, groceries, and medical costs. So a second job temporarily could make sense if we've got debt that we need to take care of, or you're using cards for essentials—that's clearly a problem, there's no emergency cushion. But before I'd add 10, 20 hours more a week, I'd look at really four things:
Number one, how can I stop the bleeding? Figure out your total monthly income, your total minimum debt payments, and whether you're running a monthly deficit. If expenses exceed income every month, the problem won't solve itself without either more income, lower expenses, or debt restructuring.
Then we need to prioritize the essential expenses first: housing, utilities, food, transportation, insurance. Unsecured debts like credit cards come right with that.
Then consider whether the income can increase in the least disruptive way possible. Could there be a little bit of overtime, or is there a higher-paying primary job, or maybe it's weekend gig work or something that's flexible? Because with a newborn coming, burnout becomes a real issue.
We've got to look at what other debt structures could help here. If we get into a debt management program to get the interest rates down, could you in 3 to 5 years get out from under that and right-size the budget? If so, that would be great.
So I think the goal is to create a stable plan that survives after the baby arrives, and make sure that we're not leading him toward burnout or robbing him of precious family time, unless it's just a very temporary situation that allows you all to get your feet under you, get out from under this debt, and then he backs it down and right-sizes it to something that's more sustainable long-term. Michelle, I'd be happy to provide you all with a gift from FaithFi, where we would cover the expense of a Certified Christian Financial Counselor meeting with you all a few times virtually to work on your budget, help you come up with a spending plan, and look at whether some additional work for a period of time could get you to a place where you could right-size it and be more sustainable. But I think that's what it's going to take to make sure that we're not just trying to put a Band-Aid on something that really is not going to work longer-term. Does that make sense?
Michelle: Yes, that makes very good sense. Yes.
Rob West: Okay. Would you be willing to meet with a Certified Financial Counselor, you and your husband?
Michelle: Yes, that would be great.
Rob West: Okay, great. We'll pick up the tab for it, so it's our gift to you, Michelle. That'll allow you guys to get a plan together, meet with somebody, and they'll pray with you. I mean, this is what they do. They're trained to be stewardship counselors. They'll look at your budget, they'll help you figure out what are those budget busters that maybe can be right-sized, how do we deal with the debt, what kind of income increase do we need and is it temporary or is it long-term, and hopefully get you guys on a more solid financial footing. So stay on the line, we'll get your information and get somebody connected with you, and we'll cover the cost. Thanks for calling today.
Folks, thanks for being along with us today. I'm Rob West, and on behalf of my team today—producer Devin Patrick, call screener Pat Montague, researcher Jim Henry—I'm Rob West. This has been Faith & Finance here on American Family Radio. We're so grateful for our partnership with AFR, bringing you biblical wisdom as it relates to financial decision-making. Have a great day, and if you want to check out our website, go to faithfi.com. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
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A business closes. A home is lost. An investment collapses. A scammer wipes out savings that took decades to build. When money disappears, the loss can reach far beyond the balance sheet. But, in Scripture, we are reminded that while wealth can be lost, our true treasure cannot. On this Faith & Finance on AFR, Rob West explores three stories that can help us respond faithfully when financial loss comes. Then, it’s on to calls.
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