Rob West: Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. Hi, I'm Rob West. In Romans 16, Paul introduces us to Phoebe, a trusted partner and gospel patron whose generosity, influence, and service helped further his ministry. Today, John Rinehart joins us to explore Phoebe's example and what it can teach us about using our work, relationships, and resources for gospel impact. And then we'll take your phone calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance on American Family Radio, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, what a treat today to have my friend, John Rinehart, back on the program. John is the founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons, a non-profit ministry that inspires business and professional leaders to use their unique gifts and resources for God's kingdom. John, great to have you here.
John Rinehart: Thanks so much, Rob. Great to be with you.
Rob West: John, you recently wrote about Phoebe for our special edition of Faithful Steward focused on women stewarding wealth, and we'll get to her story in a moment. But first, I want you to unpack the term "gospel patron" and what God has been doing in and through you and your wife, Renee, in this incredible ministry now for many years.
John Rinehart: Yeah, thank you so much. Gospel patron was a term foreign to me initially. I heard about it through a businessman in Sydney, Australia. And for me, it was helpful to understand that throughout history, God has used business and professional leaders behind the scenes to fuel and spread the momentum of His kingdom. And so a gospel patron is someone who's going to be generous, often times gifted in generosity, gifted in business, and they're standing alongside those leaders who proclaim the gospel. They're involved relationally, they're involved financially, but they're there as a partner and support in the work. And what we see in Luke chapter 8 was that Jesus Himself had gospel patrons. His ministry was funded by three women, named Mary, Joanna, and Susanna, who provided for Him out of their means.
Rob West: Yeah, and that's a detail we can often miss in God's word. But John, I know you have been so faithful to tell the stories of the gospel patrons throughout the decades, and really, for every gospel proclaimer on the front lines, there are gospel patrons behind them, right?
John Rinehart: That's right. All throughout history, they are sort of these footnotes, and yet we see their names in scripture, but they're often the names that we read right over. And yet it wouldn't have happened. The great things that God does throughout history have always been supported by gospel patrons.
Rob West: Mm, incredible. Folks, pick up the book by this title, Gospel Patrons, written by John Rinehart. It is a must-read, and then go to gospelpatrons.org to learn about this ministry. You will be blessed by it.
All right, in Romans 16:1-2, Paul introduces us to Phoebe. John, what do those verses tell us about who she was and the role that she played?
John Rinehart: Romans 16 is the final chapter of Paul's most significant letter. It has been this theological masterpiece for the church in Rome that he longed to get to. And when we get to the final chapter, he lists 27 different names of people to greet and say hello to in Rome. But the first one is this woman named Phoebe. Phoebe is most likely hand-carrying the first copy of Romans to the church in Rome that Paul longed to see himself, and he trusts her to carry it. So, she is the one where Paul says, "Greet her and treat her in a manner worthy of the saints, because she's been a patron of many." And then he says, "of myself as well."
Rob West: Mm, let's unpack that a bit more. I love this. What does it say to us that Paul entrusts a letter as important as Romans to Phoebe and not one of the other apostles?
John Rinehart: Yeah, Paul trusted her. She must have—I mean, obviously, there's a backstory here that we don't get all the details for, but he's entrusting this really significant task to her, probably because she had wealth. And therefore, she may have had security detail that traveled with her, the 800 miles to Rome. Wow. It seems that he's had a lot of experience with her in the past. I imagine that throughout Paul's ministry, there were times that he made tents and helped to provide for his own ministry, and then at other times, it seems that people like Phoebe, and sometimes Priscilla and Aquila, come alongside the apostle Paul and say, "You know, your tents are okay. What you're really good at is writing books of the New Testament. What you're really good at is preaching sermons and planting churches. And so, we want to free you up to do that. Our generosity will be the fuel in the tank for you to do what God's ultimately made and called you to do." And so, Paul trusts her at a really deep level.
Rob West: Incredible. Folks, we're talking about Phoebe and the role she played in Paul's ministry. But here's the big idea: we want you to think and pray about your role in furthering the gospel. Perhaps you're a gospel patron yourself. We're going to continue to unpack all of this just around the corner. John Rinehart's here today. He's the CEO of Gospel Patrons, and you can learn more at gospelpatrons.org. That's gospelpatrons.org. Back with more after this.
David Wollen: For your walk with Jesus, I'm David Wollen with Haven Today, inviting you to anchor your day in God's word. Where do you find your hope? Life has a way of revealing to us what our real answer is to that question when your day gets hijacked, when you work hard and someone else gets the credit, and you get passed over for the promotion. But God's word reminds us this world is but a shadow of things to come. Speaking of the heroes of the faith, Hebrews 11 says, "They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. They were longing for a better country, a heavenly one." So today, lift up your eyes. Look to the distant horizon. In Christ, we have reason for hope, not only today, but into eternity. Get more daily encouragement for your walk with Jesus—visit haventoday.org.
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Rob West: Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. We're so glad to have you with us today. I'm Rob West. With me, my friend John Rinehart. He's founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons. You can learn more at gospelpatrons.org. We're talking about Phoebe, a trusted partner and gospel patron whose generosity and influence and service helped further Paul's ministry. We see this in Romans 16. And John, I'd love to talk about what Phoebe's financial support might have actually provided for practically.
John Rinehart: Yeah. I mean, throughout history, even writing letters of the New Testament would have been very, very costly. You would hire a scribe most of the time. There would be multiple copies that were made, the cost of the papyrus and the ink, the time that it would have taken to review their work, a copy that the Apostle Paul would have kept for himself, multiple copies then that would have been distributed. It's very, very unlikely that the Apostle Paul was able to fund all of the cost of all 13 of his letters and more that he would have written. And so, it could be that Phoebe provided for that, as well as other patrons. It could be that she was helping to fund some of his travel. It could have been that she was just some of the cost of living and doing ministry on the road. It could have been, you know, living expenses. But the Bible doesn't specify exactly, but there is something really significant here where Paul is listing her first among all the people to greet in Rome and calling her his very own patron. That's the only time that that word gets used throughout the New Testament. And Paul here is applying it to Phoebe, so...
Rob West: It's incredible.
John Rinehart: We can speculate, and we know that there's something really deep here.
Rob West: Yeah, we sure do. Now, let's turn the corner and talk about how this applies to everyone listening today. What can we as Christ-followers, some professionals listening today, and many women who we know, based on the great wealth transfer, are going to be the primary beneficiaries, stewards of this $124 trillion that's changing hands. John, what can we learn from Phoebe's example?
John Rinehart: Yeah, I think a lot of times we think that faith and finances don't really intersect, or God and money are two circles that never overlap. And what we see consistently throughout the New Testament is that what we do with the wealth that God's entrusted to us is itself an act of worship. And we can use the wealth that God's entrusted to us to bless the world, to advance the gospel, to support missionaries, to serve the suffering, to help the poor, to visit the widows and the orphans. And I think we can see that our wealth is an incredible opportunity to do good. Sometimes those of us who didn't grow up with these conversations tend to think, "Well, I don't know, is money and wealth just something bad and dirty that's for business?" But then when I come to my faith, it's sort of this private, personal experience. And the reality is that for 2,000 years, God's people, and especially women—Phoebe here, and then Mary, Joanna, and Susanna mentioned in Luke chapter 8—were seeing the connection between using their wealth to glorify God, store up treasure in heaven, and advance the gospel.
Rob West: Mm. Well, folks, our special edition of Faithful Steward that is out this month, we are so excited about. It's all about women and wealth. And John has written this incredible article highlighting Phoebe, this gospel patron that we see in the book of Romans. John, you elevate in this article three traits of effective gospel patrons that are absolutely present in Phoebe's life. Share those with us.
John Rinehart: Yeah. The first one is vision. And we know that Proverbs says, "Without vision, people perish." Vision goes first. Vision is seeing the way the kingdom of God is advancing even when it's invisible. It's seeing the mustard seed going to become the big tree. And gospel patrons see and believe where God's at work. And they, and they, they see, "Okay, there's going to be a cost to this, but it's, it's going to be worth it." It's, it's full of faith. Generosity then is, they step in and give joyfully and often sacrificially to support it. This isn't a little tip. This isn't just a, a tax or even a tithe. This is, "I can't wait to be involved in God's coming kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven, and I want to participate in that now." And the third would be humility. That gospel patrons aren't often trying to be in the spotlight or hold the microphone or be recognized, but they're happy to come alongside and combine their wealth with the wealth of someone who's a gospel proclaimer and say, "Together, when our wealths merge, they actually will do so much more to bless the world."
Rob West: That is so true. Now, for somebody listening today who's discerning whether God is inviting them to become a gospel patron, maybe for an individual or maybe for an organization, how might they discern that?
John Rinehart: Yeah, I'm glad that you used the word discernment. It's so important to not rush in, but to say, "Father, help me to see my part in Your work." That Ephesians 2:10 says that God's already written the good works He has for our lives. It's not our job to make them up, it's our job to discover them through our relationship with God. So, that, that's where we always start. We always start with prayer and ask God, "What would my involvement be here?" Our, our job is not to try to make great things out of our lives, it's to try to obey the good things that God's already planned for us and join where He's at work. Second, I think we want to know, you know, is, is the person, the ministry, the organization that God might be inviting us to support, have they been tested in some way? Do we share the same theological convictions? Do, do they have competence to do the work that they're aiming to do, and do they have conviction? Competence, conviction, and, and, clarity. Are they really getting the ball, moving the ball down the field? And would they be a good person for, or organization for me to come alongside? So, you can seek wise counsel from mentors, others who have been on the board, people who have trusted them, others who have given to them. You want to ask around a little bit and do a little bit of due diligence to say, "Yeah, is, is the money that I give here going to really go to furthering the mission?"
Rob West: Mm, incredible. John, I'm confident that there's somebody that's listening today who's early in their career, who may not feel like they have significant resources yet. Yet, they're hearing you describe a gospel patron and they're saying, "I absolutely want to be one of those." What are some practical ways to begin living as a gospel patron even today?
John Rinehart: I love young professionals. I love young business students. My wife and I both studied business in college and started our careers in business. And so, I, I love the idea of catching the vision of being a gospel patron now, not later. And what Jesus says in Luke 16 is that we're called to be faithful with whatever we have now. A lot of times we delay thinking about generosity until I reach some certain status point in my career or financial metric that I'm trying to get to. But Jesus says you'll be faithful with little, you'll be faithful with much. So, it's really, really important to start today and start where you're at today with a bit of generosity and steps of faith. What we know to be true is that if we never take a step of faith, where you'll be in 10 years is exactly where you are right now. But every step of faith you take will lead to another step of faith and another step of faith and another step of faith, so that 10 years down the line, even the smallest step of faith will lead you to a destination you could not even have imagined arriving at. That's how God's kingdom works. Planting little seeds, starting small, and learning to also not let your lifestyle get out of control. I was just talking to some friends last night, and in their community, people who are highly, highly, highly successful feel really cramped financially. So, when you have a generosity conversation, they go, "I can't afford to give," because they've already overcommitted their lifestyle to things that they probably don't need. And so, allowing yourself to live under budget and live somewhat simply and create lots of margin to give, even early on, I think can be a game changer for you.
Rob West: Wow, incredible. John, I'm so thankful for your time today. I really appreciate you writing this article for Faithful Steward as well. It is incredible to see the men and women throughout history, going all the way back to God's Word and the women who supported Jesus, that stepped into this role as gospel patrons and what God did as a result of their faithfulness. Thanks for your time, my friend.
John Rinehart: You're welcome. Such a joy to be with you.
Rob West: Folks, your next step, check out gospelpatrons.org for articles and videos and a free study guide on Phoebe and other patrons. Also, pick up the book Gospel Patrons by John Rinehart. From William Tyndale to George Whitefield, all the stories are there. We'll be back with your questions after this break, so call right now: 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. Or if you'd prefer to email your question, send it to us at [email protected]. Stick around.
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Rob West: Great to have you with us today on Faith & Finance here on American Family Radio. I'm Rob West. Really thrilled you're along with us as we round out another week. Great to have my friend John Rinehart here. I'll tell you, if you have not read the book Gospel Patrons, I highly recommend it. It's sold wherever you buy books. You can also go to gospelpatrons.org. It's a beautiful website, but more than that is really these incredible stories of the gospel patrons behind the gospel proclaimers.
And it's a fascinating concept that resonates quickly, and it's this idea that, you know, behind every gospel proclaimer—now, let me stop there. We're all gospel proclaimers, right? We need to be sharing the gospel, and when necessary, use words, right? But at the same time, there are those that God has given a unique platform to share His word. And, you know, I'm thinking of Billy Graham, I'm thinking of, you know, thinking of God's word and the gospel patrons behind those gospel proclaimers, including Jesus, the gospel Himself! But behind every gospel proclaimer is a gospel patron that funds the work. We talked today about Phoebe, and there was gospel patrons behind Billy Graham, there was gospel patrons behind George Wycliffe, and I mean, you can go right on down the line through history and see those that have the privilege of funding the work of those that have taken His word to the ends of the Earth.
Many of you are gospel patrons for American Family Association and Brother Don Wildmon, and you've been a key part of taking that incredible platform that continues today centered on God's word and equipping and building up the church, and equipping God's people with a biblical worldview and impacting the culture. You've been a key part of funding that work, and that's incredible.
Well, John has done just a masterful job, literally traveling the world with his team and capturing the stories of the gospel patrons. And you'll see those stories when you head to gospelpatrons.org. You can pick up the book, you can read some of these amazing stories, and perhaps it'll be just the encouragement you see or you need to read some of these incredible stories, and perhaps lean into that yourself. So what a treat to have John here today.
Well, we're ready to turn the corner, and now we want to take your calls on anything financial. So whatever you're wrestling with in your financial life, we would love to hear from you at 800-525-7000. Again, that's 800-525-7000. As you think about giving and saving and spending, we know that you want to do that as a Christ follower in alignment with biblical wisdom. And so we want to be that source of wise counsel, to give you that practical advice, encourage you, point you back to God's word, even give you some helpful tips and ideas as you articulate what's on your mind today.
Maybe it's your budget, maybe it's your debt repayment, maybe it's preparing the next steward, maybe it's investments, perhaps it's the timing of when, or the priority order. You know, so often we hear from people saying, "You know what, I want to save, I want to pay down debt, I want to give. What comes first?" It's a great question. And any of those questions and more, we'd love to tackle today.
The lines are open. We're ready for you at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. You can call right now, and we will dive into those questions here in just a moment.
Well, of course, here on September 11th, we recognize that 25 years ago, our nation made a promise: we will never forget. And we shouldn't. We should never forget the nearly 3,000 lives lost on September 11th, 2001. We should remember the families whose lives changed forever, the first responders who ran toward danger, and the countless men and women who served and sacrificed in the years that followed. It was a horrific act of terrorism, and remembering those who were lost is both right and necessary.
But 25 years later, perhaps there is something else we should refuse to forget, and that is that we should remember who we became in the days after. You know, for a brief moment, so many of the things that normally divided us seemed less important. Political labels faded into the background, differences that so often separate neighbors suddenly didn't matter quite as much. People simply asked, "Are you okay?" Yeah, we checked on one another, we stood in blood donation lines, and we filled churches, and we prayed together, and we hugged people a little tighter, and strangers helped strangers, and communities gathered to mourn with those who mourn.
There was a renewed recognition that we belong to one another. And that may be one of the most important lessons that September 11th can still teach us. You know, Scripture tells us in Romans 12:15 to weep with those who weep. And in a moment of national sorrow, we saw something of what that looks like. We didn't have answers for every question, but we could sit beside someone who was hurting, we could pray, we could serve, we could give, we could remind one another that we were not alone.
And 25 years later, our nation can feel deeply divided. But as followers of Christ, we don't have to contribute to that division. We can choose a different way. We can be quick to listen and slow to speak. We can show kindness to a neighbor who experiences the world differently than we do. We can use the resources God has entrusted to us, not merely for ourselves, but to meet needs around us. That's what Faith & Finance is all about—our program each day—to encourage you to live out the life of a faithful steward, to practice generosity and hospitality, compassion and forgiveness as well. And above all, we can remember where our ultimate security is found.
Psalm 46:1 says God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. It's a great reminder that buildings can fall, and markets can shake, and nations can be wounded. The things we believe are permanent can change in a matter of moments, but God remains faithful.
So before we begin to take your calls today, let me just remind you and encourage you, on this 25th anniversary of September the 11th, may we never forget those we lost, but may we also never forget how precious our neighbors became to us in the aftermath. And perhaps the best way to honor that memory is not simply to look backward, but to live differently moving forward—to love our neighbors, to bear one another's burdens, to steward what God has given us for the good of others, and to pursue the kind of unity that reflects the heart of Christ. And may that be something we never forget. I hope that's an encouragement to you today on a really important and somber day that is one that we absolutely should recognize as a nation.
All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Stephen's got a question in Texas, we're going to dive into that, and perhaps your question as well. We've got one segment remaining where we're going to get to as many questions as we can, and then Jerry Bowyer and Walker Wildmon will stop by. We'll get Jerry's take on this wild market. We're down yesterday and the day before, we're up 500 points today on the Dow Jones. Inflation's still hot, what's the Fed going to do? And corporate engagement—what is AFA up to? We'll talk about it. That's all straight ahead.
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Rob West: Thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance here on American Family Radio. I'm Rob West. We're taking your questions; we'll get to as many as we can in this segment: 800-525-7000. Let's go out to Texas. Steven, go ahead, thanks for your call.
Steven: Hello.
Rob West: Hi there. How can I serve you today?
Steven: Well, I was... I have a couple of different businesses. One of them I'm fixing to start back up, and I've often, you know, God's put it on my heart to try to get help on figuring out finances the right way to...
Rob West: Oh, unfortunately, we're losing you, Steven. Let me see if we can get you... maybe you can move in one direction or the other, and let's try again. See if we can get that line to clear up. All right, I'm going to put you on hold and Adam can work with you and see if we can get a clear signal, and we'll come right back to you. Let's stay in Texas. Al, how can I help you?
Al: Yes, Rob. Thank you for taking my call. I'm 68, still working full-time, do plan to retire when I hit age 70. Right now, I am under Medicare, and both my wife and myself. And we're hit with what is called IRMAA by Medicare. And we're spending like $1,400 a month. And I know that even when I retire at age 70, we're still going to be hit with that. And I was hoping you might be able to give me some ideas as far as tax investments or other type of financial money moves that would help me with IRMAA. And I can hang up and let you respond.
Rob West: Okay, yeah, it's a great question, and I know this IRMAA—the additional premium that comes on your Medicare Part B and D as a result of having a greater amount of income—is really something a lot of people are looking to get out from under. And, you know, if that's really the goal, ultimately it comes down to what's called your modified adjusted gross income. So for IRMAA, that's your AGI—your adjusted gross income—plus any tax-exempt interest, and Medicare looks back two years.
So really, some of the most useful money moves, if you will, would be to maximize pre-tax retirement contributions while you're still working. So, you know, if you're 68 and working full-time, you could increase traditional 401(k) or 403(b) contributions or traditional IRA contributions—that's going to reduce taxable income, assuming your plan and circumstances allow it. You could be strategic about Roth conversions. So, Roth withdrawals can be extremely helpful later because qualified withdrawals don't increase your modified adjusted gross income, which is what affects IRMAA. But the conversion itself is taxable income and can trigger IRMAA in the corresponding lookback year. So you don't want to blindly convert a large amount, but if you can, you know, do some along the way, it could potentially help down the road, especially when you have required minimums.
You'd also want to manage capital gains, so avoid unnecessarily realizing large capital gains in, you know, perhaps a taxable brokerage account or with a piece of real estate, because if you're already close to that IRMAA threshold, realizing a large capital gain is going to throw you over that threshold and then, again, trigger that IRMAA two years later. So a lot of people just don't factor in the capital gains, and that is a factor, and so you just need to make sure you understand that. If we have a taxable brokerage account, you can do something called tax-loss harvesting, which offsets realized capital gains. So you essentially sell a stock at a profit, and then you, you know, with your advisor or tax professional, sell a tax at a loss and offset that to make sure that you don't trigger that IRMAA. That's a strategy a lot of people use.
You also want to watch investment income. So interest and dividends and, again, realized gains all increase AGI, and so you want to be tax-efficient in your investments.
And then I would say once you're eligible at 70 and a half, you can use qualified charitable distributions. So if you're charitably inclined, a QCD sends money directly from your IRA to eligible ministries or charities without including the qualifying distribution in your income. And, you know, that can count toward your RMDs when you're 73. So that's particularly useful for controlling your modified adjusted gross income because once you have those required minimums, if you're right up against that IRMAA threshold, you know, you could satisfy that RMD through giving, not increase your income at all, and stay below that IRMAA threshold. So that's another strategy you can use as well.
And then lastly, I would say there is something called an IRMAA appeal. So this is particularly relevant, you know, to a 68-year-old who's retiring at 70, because if Medicare is using your higher working income after you retire, work stoppage is a qualifying life-changing event. And so you can ask Social Security to use your lower income now that you're retired through a particular form—it's SSA-44—rather than simply waiting for the two-year lookback to catch up. Now, obviously if, you know, they go ahead and adjust it down because you say, "I have a qualifying event, work stoppage," and your income was still elevated, well, they're going to get, you know, they're going to get that from you eventually. But it is a great strategy for somebody who's transitioning from, you know, paid work to retirement because it could, you know, quickly adjust your your Medicare premiums and not require you to wait for them to see that two years later.
So anyway, I think at the end of the day, you know, I wouldn't necessarily contort your finances today because your salary is producing IRMAA, but if you retire at 70 and your income drops significantly, you may be able to have the surcharge recalculated based on on the retirement-related income reduction. So those are a few ideas. Hopefully that helps you as as you kind of think through, you know, the various options there. And I appreciate your call.
We were not able to get Steven's line cleared up, so let me just go ahead and address his question. You know, he was wondering just about the priority order of giving, specifically the tithe, debt repayment, saving. And, you know, this comes up a lot. This is a great question. And let me just say this: you know, generosity is deeply important in the Christian life because it can beautifully express a heart transformed by the grace of God. You know, we see that clearly in the Macedonian believers in 2 Corinthians 8. Their generosity flowed from the grace they had received. They were overwhelmed by the grace extended to them, and one of the byproducts, the outflows of the recognition of that grace, was generosity—meeting the needs, serving, and loving those around them.
But Scripture doesn't present giving as our only financial priority. You know, our character also matters in how we handle other responsibilities God has entrusted to us, like paying our bills, honoring our obligations, repaying what we owe, providing for our families, paying taxes, preparing wisely for future needs. Proverbs 6 points to the ant, which gathers food in season and prepares ahead. Joseph saved one-fifth, 20%, of everything that came in during the years of abundance for the years of famine, and many were spared because of it. That kind of prudent preparation isn't opposed to generosity. Saving can be part of faithful stewardship when it helps us prepare for known expenses and emergencies.
So ultimately, I think, you know, at the end of the day, yes, giving should be a meaningful priority in our financial lives, but it isn't the only priority. And faithful stewardship means handling all that God has entrusted to us—giving, spending, saving, meeting our obligations—with wisdom and integrity. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: Helping you see God as your ultimate treasure, money a tool to accomplish God's purposes, this is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio. We're so glad you're along with us today. Did you know that you, as an owner of shares of stock, have rights and, I would say, responsibilities? Corporate engagement can be particularly relevant for the Christ follower because there are opportunities to engage with and affect change in the biggest companies in the world, just through the advocacy rights that you have as an owner of a particular company.
And that work is happening every day, and it's a key part of what's happening in American Family Association through the work of Walker Wildmon, Jerry Bowyer, and the team at Bowyer Research as they take often the shares that you hold that you give to American Family Association and use those as a platform to really engage in conversation—many times, if not most of the time, productive conversation—toward calling these companies to focus on their core business and not get pulled off into political issues, and to even advocate for religious values in the public square. It's highly effective, and Jerry, I know we've talked about this many times, but this is really, I think, a new day in terms of what's happening, and AFA is leading that charge, aren't they?
Jerry Bowyer: Yeah, absolutely. It is a new day. It is a long-overdue new day. People who disagree with almost everything said on this network every day were the people who were in the ears of corporate investment relations, general counsel, and secretaries to the board and the boards themselves for close to 30 years. This is the thing that when Christians look at what happened to corporate America coming down on one side of a culture war—and the wrong side of that culture war; now, I'm not in favor of them coming down on the other side of a culture war, but it's even worse when you come down on the wrong side of it—looking at that and saying, "Well, how in the world did that happen?" Oh, it's simple: other shareholders, especially activists, showed up; we didn't.
So how would it get fixed? Oh, well, we show up. And we have been showing up, and AFA has led that compared to any other ministry in America. Others are starting to get involved and imitate, and that's good. But AFA took the lead on that, which is perfectly consistent with their historic mission, whether it's taking the lead in getting people registered to vote, talking to corporations, or leading boycotts. They just use now the more available toolkit and a powerful tool, which is talking to the companies. And we're seeing things change almost on a weekly basis.
Just today, we have a meeting with a little company called Apple—you've probably heard of it; it's not a fruit company despite the name—and we had really great relations with them last year. They made a lot of really positive changes in response to AFA's engagement and others', and now we're talking to them about the Southern Poverty Law Center. Charlie Kirk's anniversary of his death was yesterday. Well, a lot of people got angry about that, and that's understandable, or they got sad or depressed. But AFA and others said, "Well, wait a minute. How can we redeem this moment?"
Well, Charlie Kirk was killed because he was labeled a hater. And we've got these politicized hate group lists that have been centered in the Southern Poverty Law Center. So what our coalition did is we just went out to the companies and said, "Listen, do you understand how many acts of political violence are associated with the rhetoric that's coming out of the Southern Poverty Law Center? Do you really want them to be the arbiter of what you give to or what you platform? Do you really want to outsource your conscience and your brand building to them?" That was before the FBI indictment, just based on the political violence. And most of those companies said, "You know what? You're right." And AFA was part of that coalition—a key part of that coalition.
Rob West: Wow, that's powerful. Walker, I know we've celebrated the wins that have taken place at Apple in the past. This new engagement is a big deal. I mean, this is close to the biggest company in the world—at various times, it is the biggest. Walker, give us some sense of your enthusiasm for this engagement.
Walker Wildmon: Yeah, this situation with Apple is very problematic in the sense that they've had past partnerships and donations given to the SPLC. Tim Cook, the former CEO, gave SPLC over a million dollars back in 2017. So what we want to make sure—and this is why we're going to talk to Apple—we just want to make sure that they're not citing or using the SPLC in any manner within the corporation. There should be zero connection or coordination or utilization of the Southern Poverty Law Center hate map.
The reason why is because it's a very dangerous operation that the SPLC is running. Not only did they target and run an exposé, if you will, on Charlie Kirk talking about how bad Charlie Kirk was, how evil he is, just in the months leading up to his assassination, they've done the same thing for others, including myself. The SPLC ran a hit piece on me a few months ago, and the vitriol and the threats come flowing in immediately after that happens.
So these corporations just don't need to have anything to do with the SPLC. It doesn't benefit their corporation, their business, or their customers, and that's our message to Apple. Any other company that wants to partner with the SPLC, they need to get the message that this is a very risky business, and they need to stay as far away as possible.
Rob West: Yeah, really good. Walker, what other engagements are top of mind right now?
Walker Wildmon: Yeah, I mentioned this last week, but we are still—we've formally submitted paperwork with Bank of New York Mellon on their ESG practices and what they claim are sustainability practices. But I like to define these so-called ESG practices as basically anti-human flourishing practices, which I know Jerry talks about frequently as well. But all of this environmental, social, governance stuff is basically anti-growth policies, and a lot of it's built on unscientific Green New Deal-type standards that really hinder the company from flourishing and growing.
So we're looking at discussing with Bank of New York Mellon on what they're doing on the ESG front to ensure that those policies are not directly hurting the company and their profitability. And then we've got several other proposals over the next month or two that we're going to submit with Bank of America, Alphabet (which is Google), Goldman Sachs, PayPal, just to name a few. We're going to be putting forth a proposal with Walmart as well. So those topics are still pending, but we'll have that news in the next few weeks and months as we formally submit those proposals.
Rob West: Jerry, your thoughts on all that?
Jerry Bowyer: Yeah, my thoughts are that it really is making a difference, and that things are actually changing. So much Christian commentary and conservative commentary is just like venting frustration. And we certainly saw a lot of that with Southern Poverty Law Center and Charlie Kirk, etc., or so many other issues. We just like scream at the sky, and nothing changes. Screaming at the sky doesn't change anything. Praying changes things, but talking to the people that you want to change is a powerful tool which our team almost never uses, but AFA has been.
So it's really amazing what happens. Now, partly it's a moment in history. The kind of left stuff got way out over its skis, and there was a backlash. And partly it's the election; that made a difference for sure, as well. But a lot of this was happening before the election; a lot of this shift was happening before the election. It's mainly the power of truth when people don't just share truth among themselves. The truth community—we can talk all day about what's wrong with corporate America. But if we don't talk to them, if we don't speak truth to them, it's pretty unlikely anything's going to change.
So that's what we've been doing: just show up, be respectful and professional, and just tell the truth to the best of our abilities. And we did that for a few years, and they literally scoffed and rolled their eyes and laughed at us. But then they stopped, and then they leaned in and listened, and now they're making changes.
Rob West: Jerry, I think that respectful piece is a big idea because, you know, there's one way to do this where it's clear your aim is just to create clicks and get headlines. Another way is to go in and just make your primary goal truth-telling, respectfulness, but ultimately leading to change, and the latter is your approach, right?
Jerry Bowyer: Absolutely. We have a saying around here: only a win is a win. So making a CEO mad, or tripping him up at the annual meeting, or owning the libs or whatever, that's not a win. It might be a win getting more clicks on X, and maybe certain donors will like that for a certain period of time. But in the end, the way to get a win is to not do it at the expense of the company.
So almost always when we talk to these companies about withdrawal, we talk to them about what we're going to say about it. And we agree on the language, and we don't go out there and say, "We forced so-and-so to their knees." That would be great; that would feel great, except that'll be the last win we get, because it sends a signal to everybody else that if you do what AFA and Bowyer Research and Heritage and others are asking you to do, expect to get slapped around for it rather than to get applauded for it. So the price of actually getting victories is to not take a bunch of cheap victory laps.
Rob West: That's great. Walker, I'll give you the last word here.
Walker Wildmon: Yeah, there are some, as Jerry's saying, there's some people that just like to complain about things, which I have my fair share of complaining. But the fact of the matter is that we need to be problem solvers. If you're presenting the audience or the public with a problem and you yourself don't have a solution and can't offer a solution, then what are we doing here?
So that's what AFA is trying to do here. We're identifying problems in corporate America, and then we're putting forth proposals and we're having direct conversations with the companies on what they can do to fix the problems. That's the most productive way we've found to address this in recent years.
Rob West: Yeah, well said. It's an important part of the work of AFA Action. Walker, thanks for leading the charge. Jerry, I know you and your team are a big part of that. Gentlemen, thanks for this update. It's been great.
Walker Wildmon: Thanks, Rob.
Jerry Bowyer: Thank you.
Rob West: All right. That's Jerry Bowyer, Walker Wildmon from the American Family Association.
Folks, don't miss this opportunity if you'd like to support the work of AFA. Reach out to the AFA Foundation. Walker, Chelsea, Riley, Jessica, Wesley—any of them would love to chat with you. And particularly as we head toward year-end, maybe you're sitting on some appreciated stock. Well, it just might be that that company is one that AFA wants to engage in. You could make a gift of the appreciated stock, no capital gains, goes directly to AFA. They could perhaps engage on it, then sell it, and get the double win—the triple win. You get the blessing, we get to affect change in corporate America, and then ultimately AFA gets to use those resources to advance its mission to proclaim the gospel, build up the church, and equip God's people.
Incredible. afafoundation.net is how you can get more information on that. Big thanks to Adam Sudduth, Patty Pumphrey, Taylor Standrich, and everybody here at FaithFi. Hope you have a wonderful weekend, and come back and join us next week. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.
Rob West: Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. Hi, I'm Rob West. In Romans 16, Paul introduces us to Phoebe, a trusted partner and gospel patron whose generosity, influence, and service helped further his ministry. Today, John Rinehart joins us to explore Phoebe's example and what it can teach us about using our work, relationships, and resources for gospel impact. And then we'll take your phone calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance on American Family Radio, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.
Well, what a treat today to have my friend, John Rinehart, back on the program. John is the founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons, a non-profit ministry that inspires business and professional leaders to use their unique gifts and resources for God's kingdom. John, great to have you here.
John Rinehart: Thanks so much, Rob. Great to be with you.
Rob West: John, you recently wrote about Phoebe for our special edition of Faithful Steward focused on women stewarding wealth, and we'll get to her story in a moment. But first, I want you to unpack the term "gospel patron" and what God has been doing in and through you and your wife, Renee, in this incredible ministry now for many years.
John Rinehart: Yeah, thank you so much. Gospel patron was a term foreign to me initially. I heard about it through a businessman in Sydney, Australia. And for me, it was helpful to understand that throughout history, God has used business and professional leaders behind the scenes to fuel and spread the momentum of His kingdom. And so a gospel patron is someone who's going to be generous, often times gifted in generosity, gifted in business, and they're standing alongside those leaders who proclaim the gospel. They're involved relationally, they're involved financially, but they're there as a partner and support in the work. And what we see in Luke chapter 8 was that Jesus Himself had gospel patrons. His ministry was funded by three women, named Mary, Joanna, and Susanna, who provided for Him out of their means.
Rob West: Yeah, and that's a detail we can often miss in God's word. But John, I know you have been so faithful to tell the stories of the gospel patrons throughout the decades, and really, for every gospel proclaimer on the front lines, there are gospel patrons behind them, right?
John Rinehart: That's right. All throughout history, they are sort of these footnotes, and yet we see their names in scripture, but they're often the names that we read right over. And yet it wouldn't have happened. The great things that God does throughout history have always been supported by gospel patrons.
Rob West: Mm, incredible. Folks, pick up the book by this title, Gospel Patrons, written by John Rinehart. It is a must-read, and then go to gospelpatrons.org to learn about this ministry. You will be blessed by it.
All right, in Romans 16:1-2, Paul introduces us to Phoebe. John, what do those verses tell us about who she was and the role that she played?
John Rinehart: Romans 16 is the final chapter of Paul's most significant letter. It has been this theological masterpiece for the church in Rome that he longed to get to. And when we get to the final chapter, he lists 27 different names of people to greet and say hello to in Rome. But the first one is this woman named Phoebe. Phoebe is most likely hand-carrying the first copy of Romans to the church in Rome that Paul longed to see himself, and he trusts her to carry it. So, she is the one where Paul says, "Greet her and treat her in a manner worthy of the saints, because she's been a patron of many." And then he says, "of myself as well."
Rob West: Mm, let's unpack that a bit more. I love this. What does it say to us that Paul entrusts a letter as important as Romans to Phoebe and not one of the other apostles?
John Rinehart: Yeah, Paul trusted her. She must have—I mean, obviously, there's a backstory here that we don't get all the details for, but he's entrusting this really significant task to her, probably because she had wealth. And therefore, she may have had security detail that traveled with her, the 800 miles to Rome. Wow. It seems that he's had a lot of experience with her in the past. I imagine that throughout Paul's ministry, there were times that he made tents and helped to provide for his own ministry, and then at other times, it seems that people like Phoebe, and sometimes Priscilla and Aquila, come alongside the apostle Paul and say, "You know, your tents are okay. What you're really good at is writing books of the New Testament. What you're really good at is preaching sermons and planting churches. And so, we want to free you up to do that. Our generosity will be the fuel in the tank for you to do what God's ultimately made and called you to do." And so, Paul trusts her at a really deep level.
Rob West: Incredible. Folks, we're talking about Phoebe and the role she played in Paul's ministry. But here's the big idea: we want you to think and pray about your role in furthering the gospel. Perhaps you're a gospel patron yourself. We're going to continue to unpack all of this just around the corner. John Rinehart's here today. He's the CEO of Gospel Patrons, and you can learn more at gospelpatrons.org. That's gospelpatrons.org. Back with more after this.
David Wollen: For your walk with Jesus, I'm David Wollen with Haven Today, inviting you to anchor your day in God's word. Where do you find your hope? Life has a way of revealing to us what our real answer is to that question when your day gets hijacked, when you work hard and someone else gets the credit, and you get passed over for the promotion. But God's word reminds us this world is but a shadow of things to come. Speaking of the heroes of the faith, Hebrews 11 says, "They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. They were longing for a better country, a heavenly one." So today, lift up your eyes. Look to the distant horizon. In Christ, we have reason for hope, not only today, but into eternity. Get more daily encouragement for your walk with Jesus—visit haventoday.org.
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Rob West: Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. We're so glad to have you with us today. I'm Rob West. With me, my friend John Rinehart. He's founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons. You can learn more at gospelpatrons.org. We're talking about Phoebe, a trusted partner and gospel patron whose generosity and influence and service helped further Paul's ministry. We see this in Romans 16. And John, I'd love to talk about what Phoebe's financial support might have actually provided for practically.
John Rinehart: Yeah. I mean, throughout history, even writing letters of the New Testament would have been very, very costly. You would hire a scribe most of the time. There would be multiple copies that were made, the cost of the papyrus and the ink, the time that it would have taken to review their work, a copy that the Apostle Paul would have kept for himself, multiple copies then that would have been distributed. It's very, very unlikely that the Apostle Paul was able to fund all of the cost of all 13 of his letters and more that he would have written. And so, it could be that Phoebe provided for that, as well as other patrons. It could be that she was helping to fund some of his travel. It could have been that she was just some of the cost of living and doing ministry on the road. It could have been, you know, living expenses. But the Bible doesn't specify exactly, but there is something really significant here where Paul is listing her first among all the people to greet in Rome and calling her his very own patron. That's the only time that that word gets used throughout the New Testament. And Paul here is applying it to Phoebe, so...
Rob West: It's incredible.
John Rinehart: We can speculate, and we know that there's something really deep here.
Rob West: Yeah, we sure do. Now, let's turn the corner and talk about how this applies to everyone listening today. What can we as Christ-followers, some professionals listening today, and many women who we know, based on the great wealth transfer, are going to be the primary beneficiaries, stewards of this $124 trillion that's changing hands. John, what can we learn from Phoebe's example?
John Rinehart: Yeah, I think a lot of times we think that faith and finances don't really intersect, or God and money are two circles that never overlap. And what we see consistently throughout the New Testament is that what we do with the wealth that God's entrusted to us is itself an act of worship. And we can use the wealth that God's entrusted to us to bless the world, to advance the gospel, to support missionaries, to serve the suffering, to help the poor, to visit the widows and the orphans. And I think we can see that our wealth is an incredible opportunity to do good. Sometimes those of us who didn't grow up with these conversations tend to think, "Well, I don't know, is money and wealth just something bad and dirty that's for business?" But then when I come to my faith, it's sort of this private, personal experience. And the reality is that for 2,000 years, God's people, and especially women—Phoebe here, and then Mary, Joanna, and Susanna mentioned in Luke chapter 8—were seeing the connection between using their wealth to glorify God, store up treasure in heaven, and advance the gospel.
Rob West: Mm. Well, folks, our special edition of Faithful Steward that is out this month, we are so excited about. It's all about women and wealth. And John has written this incredible article highlighting Phoebe, this gospel patron that we see in the book of Romans. John, you elevate in this article three traits of effective gospel patrons that are absolutely present in Phoebe's life. Share those with us.
John Rinehart: Yeah. The first one is vision. And we know that Proverbs says, "Without vision, people perish." Vision goes first. Vision is seeing the way the kingdom of God is advancing even when it's invisible. It's seeing the mustard seed going to become the big tree. And gospel patrons see and believe where God's at work. And they, and they, they see, "Okay, there's going to be a cost to this, but it's, it's going to be worth it." It's, it's full of faith. Generosity then is, they step in and give joyfully and often sacrificially to support it. This isn't a little tip. This isn't just a, a tax or even a tithe. This is, "I can't wait to be involved in God's coming kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven, and I want to participate in that now." And the third would be humility. That gospel patrons aren't often trying to be in the spotlight or hold the microphone or be recognized, but they're happy to come alongside and combine their wealth with the wealth of someone who's a gospel proclaimer and say, "Together, when our wealths merge, they actually will do so much more to bless the world."
Rob West: That is so true. Now, for somebody listening today who's discerning whether God is inviting them to become a gospel patron, maybe for an individual or maybe for an organization, how might they discern that?
John Rinehart: Yeah, I'm glad that you used the word discernment. It's so important to not rush in, but to say, "Father, help me to see my part in Your work." That Ephesians 2:10 says that God's already written the good works He has for our lives. It's not our job to make them up, it's our job to discover them through our relationship with God. So, that, that's where we always start. We always start with prayer and ask God, "What would my involvement be here?" Our, our job is not to try to make great things out of our lives, it's to try to obey the good things that God's already planned for us and join where He's at work. Second, I think we want to know, you know, is, is the person, the ministry, the organization that God might be inviting us to support, have they been tested in some way? Do we share the same theological convictions? Do, do they have competence to do the work that they're aiming to do, and do they have conviction? Competence, conviction, and, and, clarity. Are they really getting the ball, moving the ball down the field? And would they be a good person for, or organization for me to come alongside? So, you can seek wise counsel from mentors, others who have been on the board, people who have trusted them, others who have given to them. You want to ask around a little bit and do a little bit of due diligence to say, "Yeah, is, is the money that I give here going to really go to furthering the mission?"
Rob West: Mm, incredible. John, I'm confident that there's somebody that's listening today who's early in their career, who may not feel like they have significant resources yet. Yet, they're hearing you describe a gospel patron and they're saying, "I absolutely want to be one of those." What are some practical ways to begin living as a gospel patron even today?
John Rinehart: I love young professionals. I love young business students. My wife and I both studied business in college and started our careers in business. And so, I, I love the idea of catching the vision of being a gospel patron now, not later. And what Jesus says in Luke 16 is that we're called to be faithful with whatever we have now. A lot of times we delay thinking about generosity until I reach some certain status point in my career or financial metric that I'm trying to get to. But Jesus says you'll be faithful with little, you'll be faithful with much. So, it's really, really important to start today and start where you're at today with a bit of generosity and steps of faith. What we know to be true is that if we never take a step of faith, where you'll be in 10 years is exactly where you are right now. But every step of faith you take will lead to another step of faith and another step of faith and another step of faith, so that 10 years down the line, even the smallest step of faith will lead you to a destination you could not even have imagined arriving at. That's how God's kingdom works. Planting little seeds, starting small, and learning to also not let your lifestyle get out of control. I was just talking to some friends last night, and in their community, people who are highly, highly, highly successful feel really cramped financially. So, when you have a generosity conversation, they go, "I can't afford to give," because they've already overcommitted their lifestyle to things that they probably don't need. And so, allowing yourself to live under budget and live somewhat simply and create lots of margin to give, even early on, I think can be a game changer for you.
Rob West: Wow, incredible. John, I'm so thankful for your time today. I really appreciate you writing this article for Faithful Steward as well. It is incredible to see the men and women throughout history, going all the way back to God's Word and the women who supported Jesus, that stepped into this role as gospel patrons and what God did as a result of their faithfulness. Thanks for your time, my friend.
John Rinehart: You're welcome. Such a joy to be with you.
Rob West: Folks, your next step, check out gospelpatrons.org for articles and videos and a free study guide on Phoebe and other patrons. Also, pick up the book Gospel Patrons by John Rinehart. From William Tyndale to George Whitefield, all the stories are there. We'll be back with your questions after this break, so call right now: 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. Or if you'd prefer to email your question, send it to us at [email protected]. Stick around.
Announcer: I'm Dr. Ray Rooney. The mission of American Family Association is to inform, equip, and activate individuals and families to strengthen the moral foundations of American culture and give aid to the church here and abroad in its task of fulfilling the Great Commission. AFA aims to evangelize the lost and disciple the believer. Thank you for standing with the American Family Association as we seek to stop the erosion of Godly values.
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Announcer: Wondering who FaithFi recommends as a banking partner that aligns with Christian values? It's AdelFi Christian Banking, the trusted team you've known as Christian Community Credit Union. With high-yield checking, savings, Visa cash back cards, and a competitive money market account, your everyday banking helps advance the gospel. Visit faithfi.com/banking and use the code FAITHFI. Membership eligibility required. Accounts are privately insured up to $250,000. This institution is not federally insured.
Announcer: I'm Chelsea Wildmon, Associate Director of the AFA Foundation. Occasionally, there are those that have a more complicated financial situation. If that's you, we would love to set up a phone consultation with our team and Rob West, host of FaithFi on American Family Radio. We will go over your specific situation. If you are interested, please give us a call, 1-800-326-4543, extension 345, or you can visit us at afafoundation.net.
Announcer: As the leading advocate for the Christian financial industry, Kingdom Advisors serves the public by promoting the integration of a biblical worldview across every aspect of the financial services industry. And we serve a growing network of thousands of Christian financial professionals, equipping and empowering them to carry biblical financial wisdom to their clients, peers, and community. For more information, visit kingdomadvisors.com. That's kingdomadvisors.com.
Rob West: Great to have you with us today on Faith & Finance here on American Family Radio. I'm Rob West. Really thrilled you're along with us as we round out another week. Great to have my friend John Rinehart here. I'll tell you, if you have not read the book Gospel Patrons, I highly recommend it. It's sold wherever you buy books. You can also go to gospelpatrons.org. It's a beautiful website, but more than that is really these incredible stories of the gospel patrons behind the gospel proclaimers.
And it's a fascinating concept that resonates quickly, and it's this idea that, you know, behind every gospel proclaimer—now, let me stop there. We're all gospel proclaimers, right? We need to be sharing the gospel, and when necessary, use words, right? But at the same time, there are those that God has given a unique platform to share His word. And, you know, I'm thinking of Billy Graham, I'm thinking of, you know, thinking of God's word and the gospel patrons behind those gospel proclaimers, including Jesus, the gospel Himself! But behind every gospel proclaimer is a gospel patron that funds the work. We talked today about Phoebe, and there was gospel patrons behind Billy Graham, there was gospel patrons behind George Wycliffe, and I mean, you can go right on down the line through history and see those that have the privilege of funding the work of those that have taken His word to the ends of the Earth.
Many of you are gospel patrons for American Family Association and Brother Don Wildmon, and you've been a key part of taking that incredible platform that continues today centered on God's word and equipping and building up the church, and equipping God's people with a biblical worldview and impacting the culture. You've been a key part of funding that work, and that's incredible.
Well, John has done just a masterful job, literally traveling the world with his team and capturing the stories of the gospel patrons. And you'll see those stories when you head to gospelpatrons.org. You can pick up the book, you can read some of these amazing stories, and perhaps it'll be just the encouragement you see or you need to read some of these incredible stories, and perhaps lean into that yourself. So what a treat to have John here today.
Well, we're ready to turn the corner, and now we want to take your calls on anything financial. So whatever you're wrestling with in your financial life, we would love to hear from you at 800-525-7000. Again, that's 800-525-7000. As you think about giving and saving and spending, we know that you want to do that as a Christ follower in alignment with biblical wisdom. And so we want to be that source of wise counsel, to give you that practical advice, encourage you, point you back to God's word, even give you some helpful tips and ideas as you articulate what's on your mind today.
Maybe it's your budget, maybe it's your debt repayment, maybe it's preparing the next steward, maybe it's investments, perhaps it's the timing of when, or the priority order. You know, so often we hear from people saying, "You know what, I want to save, I want to pay down debt, I want to give. What comes first?" It's a great question. And any of those questions and more, we'd love to tackle today.
The lines are open. We're ready for you at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. You can call right now, and we will dive into those questions here in just a moment.
Well, of course, here on September 11th, we recognize that 25 years ago, our nation made a promise: we will never forget. And we shouldn't. We should never forget the nearly 3,000 lives lost on September 11th, 2001. We should remember the families whose lives changed forever, the first responders who ran toward danger, and the countless men and women who served and sacrificed in the years that followed. It was a horrific act of terrorism, and remembering those who were lost is both right and necessary.
But 25 years later, perhaps there is something else we should refuse to forget, and that is that we should remember who we became in the days after. You know, for a brief moment, so many of the things that normally divided us seemed less important. Political labels faded into the background, differences that so often separate neighbors suddenly didn't matter quite as much. People simply asked, "Are you okay?" Yeah, we checked on one another, we stood in blood donation lines, and we filled churches, and we prayed together, and we hugged people a little tighter, and strangers helped strangers, and communities gathered to mourn with those who mourn.
There was a renewed recognition that we belong to one another. And that may be one of the most important lessons that September 11th can still teach us. You know, Scripture tells us in Romans 12:15 to weep with those who weep. And in a moment of national sorrow, we saw something of what that looks like. We didn't have answers for every question, but we could sit beside someone who was hurting, we could pray, we could serve, we could give, we could remind one another that we were not alone.
And 25 years later, our nation can feel deeply divided. But as followers of Christ, we don't have to contribute to that division. We can choose a different way. We can be quick to listen and slow to speak. We can show kindness to a neighbor who experiences the world differently than we do. We can use the resources God has entrusted to us, not merely for ourselves, but to meet needs around us. That's what Faith & Finance is all about—our program each day—to encourage you to live out the life of a faithful steward, to practice generosity and hospitality, compassion and forgiveness as well. And above all, we can remember where our ultimate security is found.
Psalm 46:1 says God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. It's a great reminder that buildings can fall, and markets can shake, and nations can be wounded. The things we believe are permanent can change in a matter of moments, but God remains faithful.
So before we begin to take your calls today, let me just remind you and encourage you, on this 25th anniversary of September the 11th, may we never forget those we lost, but may we also never forget how precious our neighbors became to us in the aftermath. And perhaps the best way to honor that memory is not simply to look backward, but to live differently moving forward—to love our neighbors, to bear one another's burdens, to steward what God has given us for the good of others, and to pursue the kind of unity that reflects the heart of Christ. And may that be something we never forget. I hope that's an encouragement to you today on a really important and somber day that is one that we absolutely should recognize as a nation.
All right, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Stephen's got a question in Texas, we're going to dive into that, and perhaps your question as well. We've got one segment remaining where we're going to get to as many questions as we can, and then Jerry Bowyer and Walker Wildmon will stop by. We'll get Jerry's take on this wild market. We're down yesterday and the day before, we're up 500 points today on the Dow Jones. Inflation's still hot, what's the Fed going to do? And corporate engagement—what is AFA up to? We'll talk about it. That's all straight ahead.
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Announcer: The Bible talks about money a lot—more than 2,300 verses touch on wealth, possessions, generosity, and stewardship. And one of the clearest principles is this: money itself is not the goal, it's simply a tool God places in our hands to accomplish something far greater than ourselves. What am I trusting right now—God or money? Faith and Finance with Rob West, weekdays at 9:00 AM Central or on the AFR app.
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Rob West: Thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance here on American Family Radio. I'm Rob West. We're taking your questions; we'll get to as many as we can in this segment: 800-525-7000. Let's go out to Texas. Steven, go ahead, thanks for your call.
Steven: Hello.
Rob West: Hi there. How can I serve you today?
Steven: Well, I was... I have a couple of different businesses. One of them I'm fixing to start back up, and I've often, you know, God's put it on my heart to try to get help on figuring out finances the right way to...
Rob West: Oh, unfortunately, we're losing you, Steven. Let me see if we can get you... maybe you can move in one direction or the other, and let's try again. See if we can get that line to clear up. All right, I'm going to put you on hold and Adam can work with you and see if we can get a clear signal, and we'll come right back to you. Let's stay in Texas. Al, how can I help you?
Al: Yes, Rob. Thank you for taking my call. I'm 68, still working full-time, do plan to retire when I hit age 70. Right now, I am under Medicare, and both my wife and myself. And we're hit with what is called IRMAA by Medicare. And we're spending like $1,400 a month. And I know that even when I retire at age 70, we're still going to be hit with that. And I was hoping you might be able to give me some ideas as far as tax investments or other type of financial money moves that would help me with IRMAA. And I can hang up and let you respond.
Rob West: Okay, yeah, it's a great question, and I know this IRMAA—the additional premium that comes on your Medicare Part B and D as a result of having a greater amount of income—is really something a lot of people are looking to get out from under. And, you know, if that's really the goal, ultimately it comes down to what's called your modified adjusted gross income. So for IRMAA, that's your AGI—your adjusted gross income—plus any tax-exempt interest, and Medicare looks back two years.
So really, some of the most useful money moves, if you will, would be to maximize pre-tax retirement contributions while you're still working. So, you know, if you're 68 and working full-time, you could increase traditional 401(k) or 403(b) contributions or traditional IRA contributions—that's going to reduce taxable income, assuming your plan and circumstances allow it. You could be strategic about Roth conversions. So, Roth withdrawals can be extremely helpful later because qualified withdrawals don't increase your modified adjusted gross income, which is what affects IRMAA. But the conversion itself is taxable income and can trigger IRMAA in the corresponding lookback year. So you don't want to blindly convert a large amount, but if you can, you know, do some along the way, it could potentially help down the road, especially when you have required minimums.
You'd also want to manage capital gains, so avoid unnecessarily realizing large capital gains in, you know, perhaps a taxable brokerage account or with a piece of real estate, because if you're already close to that IRMAA threshold, realizing a large capital gain is going to throw you over that threshold and then, again, trigger that IRMAA two years later. So a lot of people just don't factor in the capital gains, and that is a factor, and so you just need to make sure you understand that. If we have a taxable brokerage account, you can do something called tax-loss harvesting, which offsets realized capital gains. So you essentially sell a stock at a profit, and then you, you know, with your advisor or tax professional, sell a tax at a loss and offset that to make sure that you don't trigger that IRMAA. That's a strategy a lot of people use.
You also want to watch investment income. So interest and dividends and, again, realized gains all increase AGI, and so you want to be tax-efficient in your investments.
And then I would say once you're eligible at 70 and a half, you can use qualified charitable distributions. So if you're charitably inclined, a QCD sends money directly from your IRA to eligible ministries or charities without including the qualifying distribution in your income. And, you know, that can count toward your RMDs when you're 73. So that's particularly useful for controlling your modified adjusted gross income because once you have those required minimums, if you're right up against that IRMAA threshold, you know, you could satisfy that RMD through giving, not increase your income at all, and stay below that IRMAA threshold. So that's another strategy you can use as well.
And then lastly, I would say there is something called an IRMAA appeal. So this is particularly relevant, you know, to a 68-year-old who's retiring at 70, because if Medicare is using your higher working income after you retire, work stoppage is a qualifying life-changing event. And so you can ask Social Security to use your lower income now that you're retired through a particular form—it's SSA-44—rather than simply waiting for the two-year lookback to catch up. Now, obviously if, you know, they go ahead and adjust it down because you say, "I have a qualifying event, work stoppage," and your income was still elevated, well, they're going to get, you know, they're going to get that from you eventually. But it is a great strategy for somebody who's transitioning from, you know, paid work to retirement because it could, you know, quickly adjust your your Medicare premiums and not require you to wait for them to see that two years later.
So anyway, I think at the end of the day, you know, I wouldn't necessarily contort your finances today because your salary is producing IRMAA, but if you retire at 70 and your income drops significantly, you may be able to have the surcharge recalculated based on on the retirement-related income reduction. So those are a few ideas. Hopefully that helps you as as you kind of think through, you know, the various options there. And I appreciate your call.
We were not able to get Steven's line cleared up, so let me just go ahead and address his question. You know, he was wondering just about the priority order of giving, specifically the tithe, debt repayment, saving. And, you know, this comes up a lot. This is a great question. And let me just say this: you know, generosity is deeply important in the Christian life because it can beautifully express a heart transformed by the grace of God. You know, we see that clearly in the Macedonian believers in 2 Corinthians 8. Their generosity flowed from the grace they had received. They were overwhelmed by the grace extended to them, and one of the byproducts, the outflows of the recognition of that grace, was generosity—meeting the needs, serving, and loving those around them.
But Scripture doesn't present giving as our only financial priority. You know, our character also matters in how we handle other responsibilities God has entrusted to us, like paying our bills, honoring our obligations, repaying what we owe, providing for our families, paying taxes, preparing wisely for future needs. Proverbs 6 points to the ant, which gathers food in season and prepares ahead. Joseph saved one-fifth, 20%, of everything that came in during the years of abundance for the years of famine, and many were spared because of it. That kind of prudent preparation isn't opposed to generosity. Saving can be part of faithful stewardship when it helps us prepare for known expenses and emergencies.
So ultimately, I think, you know, at the end of the day, yes, giving should be a meaningful priority in our financial lives, but it isn't the only priority. And faithful stewardship means handling all that God has entrusted to us—giving, spending, saving, meeting our obligations—with wisdom and integrity. We'll be right back.
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Rob West: Helping you see God as your ultimate treasure, money a tool to accomplish God's purposes, this is Faith & Finance on American Family Radio. We're so glad you're along with us today. Did you know that you, as an owner of shares of stock, have rights and, I would say, responsibilities? Corporate engagement can be particularly relevant for the Christ follower because there are opportunities to engage with and affect change in the biggest companies in the world, just through the advocacy rights that you have as an owner of a particular company.
And that work is happening every day, and it's a key part of what's happening in American Family Association through the work of Walker Wildmon, Jerry Bowyer, and the team at Bowyer Research as they take often the shares that you hold that you give to American Family Association and use those as a platform to really engage in conversation—many times, if not most of the time, productive conversation—toward calling these companies to focus on their core business and not get pulled off into political issues, and to even advocate for religious values in the public square. It's highly effective, and Jerry, I know we've talked about this many times, but this is really, I think, a new day in terms of what's happening, and AFA is leading that charge, aren't they?
Jerry Bowyer: Yeah, absolutely. It is a new day. It is a long-overdue new day. People who disagree with almost everything said on this network every day were the people who were in the ears of corporate investment relations, general counsel, and secretaries to the board and the boards themselves for close to 30 years. This is the thing that when Christians look at what happened to corporate America coming down on one side of a culture war—and the wrong side of that culture war; now, I'm not in favor of them coming down on the other side of a culture war, but it's even worse when you come down on the wrong side of it—looking at that and saying, "Well, how in the world did that happen?" Oh, it's simple: other shareholders, especially activists, showed up; we didn't.
So how would it get fixed? Oh, well, we show up. And we have been showing up, and AFA has led that compared to any other ministry in America. Others are starting to get involved and imitate, and that's good. But AFA took the lead on that, which is perfectly consistent with their historic mission, whether it's taking the lead in getting people registered to vote, talking to corporations, or leading boycotts. They just use now the more available toolkit and a powerful tool, which is talking to the companies. And we're seeing things change almost on a weekly basis.
Just today, we have a meeting with a little company called Apple—you've probably heard of it; it's not a fruit company despite the name—and we had really great relations with them last year. They made a lot of really positive changes in response to AFA's engagement and others', and now we're talking to them about the Southern Poverty Law Center. Charlie Kirk's anniversary of his death was yesterday. Well, a lot of people got angry about that, and that's understandable, or they got sad or depressed. But AFA and others said, "Well, wait a minute. How can we redeem this moment?"
Well, Charlie Kirk was killed because he was labeled a hater. And we've got these politicized hate group lists that have been centered in the Southern Poverty Law Center. So what our coalition did is we just went out to the companies and said, "Listen, do you understand how many acts of political violence are associated with the rhetoric that's coming out of the Southern Poverty Law Center? Do you really want them to be the arbiter of what you give to or what you platform? Do you really want to outsource your conscience and your brand building to them?" That was before the FBI indictment, just based on the political violence. And most of those companies said, "You know what? You're right." And AFA was part of that coalition—a key part of that coalition.
Rob West: Wow, that's powerful. Walker, I know we've celebrated the wins that have taken place at Apple in the past. This new engagement is a big deal. I mean, this is close to the biggest company in the world—at various times, it is the biggest. Walker, give us some sense of your enthusiasm for this engagement.
Walker Wildmon: Yeah, this situation with Apple is very problematic in the sense that they've had past partnerships and donations given to the SPLC. Tim Cook, the former CEO, gave SPLC over a million dollars back in 2017. So what we want to make sure—and this is why we're going to talk to Apple—we just want to make sure that they're not citing or using the SPLC in any manner within the corporation. There should be zero connection or coordination or utilization of the Southern Poverty Law Center hate map.
The reason why is because it's a very dangerous operation that the SPLC is running. Not only did they target and run an exposé, if you will, on Charlie Kirk talking about how bad Charlie Kirk was, how evil he is, just in the months leading up to his assassination, they've done the same thing for others, including myself. The SPLC ran a hit piece on me a few months ago, and the vitriol and the threats come flowing in immediately after that happens.
So these corporations just don't need to have anything to do with the SPLC. It doesn't benefit their corporation, their business, or their customers, and that's our message to Apple. Any other company that wants to partner with the SPLC, they need to get the message that this is a very risky business, and they need to stay as far away as possible.
Rob West: Yeah, really good. Walker, what other engagements are top of mind right now?
Walker Wildmon: Yeah, I mentioned this last week, but we are still—we've formally submitted paperwork with Bank of New York Mellon on their ESG practices and what they claim are sustainability practices. But I like to define these so-called ESG practices as basically anti-human flourishing practices, which I know Jerry talks about frequently as well. But all of this environmental, social, governance stuff is basically anti-growth policies, and a lot of it's built on unscientific Green New Deal-type standards that really hinder the company from flourishing and growing.
So we're looking at discussing with Bank of New York Mellon on what they're doing on the ESG front to ensure that those policies are not directly hurting the company and their profitability. And then we've got several other proposals over the next month or two that we're going to submit with Bank of America, Alphabet (which is Google), Goldman Sachs, PayPal, just to name a few. We're going to be putting forth a proposal with Walmart as well. So those topics are still pending, but we'll have that news in the next few weeks and months as we formally submit those proposals.
Rob West: Jerry, your thoughts on all that?
Jerry Bowyer: Yeah, my thoughts are that it really is making a difference, and that things are actually changing. So much Christian commentary and conservative commentary is just like venting frustration. And we certainly saw a lot of that with Southern Poverty Law Center and Charlie Kirk, etc., or so many other issues. We just like scream at the sky, and nothing changes. Screaming at the sky doesn't change anything. Praying changes things, but talking to the people that you want to change is a powerful tool which our team almost never uses, but AFA has been.
So it's really amazing what happens. Now, partly it's a moment in history. The kind of left stuff got way out over its skis, and there was a backlash. And partly it's the election; that made a difference for sure, as well. But a lot of this was happening before the election; a lot of this shift was happening before the election. It's mainly the power of truth when people don't just share truth among themselves. The truth community—we can talk all day about what's wrong with corporate America. But if we don't talk to them, if we don't speak truth to them, it's pretty unlikely anything's going to change.
So that's what we've been doing: just show up, be respectful and professional, and just tell the truth to the best of our abilities. And we did that for a few years, and they literally scoffed and rolled their eyes and laughed at us. But then they stopped, and then they leaned in and listened, and now they're making changes.
Rob West: Jerry, I think that respectful piece is a big idea because, you know, there's one way to do this where it's clear your aim is just to create clicks and get headlines. Another way is to go in and just make your primary goal truth-telling, respectfulness, but ultimately leading to change, and the latter is your approach, right?
Jerry Bowyer: Absolutely. We have a saying around here: only a win is a win. So making a CEO mad, or tripping him up at the annual meeting, or owning the libs or whatever, that's not a win. It might be a win getting more clicks on X, and maybe certain donors will like that for a certain period of time. But in the end, the way to get a win is to not do it at the expense of the company.
So almost always when we talk to these companies about withdrawal, we talk to them about what we're going to say about it. And we agree on the language, and we don't go out there and say, "We forced so-and-so to their knees." That would be great; that would feel great, except that'll be the last win we get, because it sends a signal to everybody else that if you do what AFA and Bowyer Research and Heritage and others are asking you to do, expect to get slapped around for it rather than to get applauded for it. So the price of actually getting victories is to not take a bunch of cheap victory laps.
Rob West: That's great. Walker, I'll give you the last word here.
Walker Wildmon: Yeah, there are some, as Jerry's saying, there's some people that just like to complain about things, which I have my fair share of complaining. But the fact of the matter is that we need to be problem solvers. If you're presenting the audience or the public with a problem and you yourself don't have a solution and can't offer a solution, then what are we doing here?
So that's what AFA is trying to do here. We're identifying problems in corporate America, and then we're putting forth proposals and we're having direct conversations with the companies on what they can do to fix the problems. That's the most productive way we've found to address this in recent years.
Rob West: Yeah, well said. It's an important part of the work of AFA Action. Walker, thanks for leading the charge. Jerry, I know you and your team are a big part of that. Gentlemen, thanks for this update. It's been great.
Walker Wildmon: Thanks, Rob.
Jerry Bowyer: Thank you.
Rob West: All right. That's Jerry Bowyer, Walker Wildmon from the American Family Association.
Folks, don't miss this opportunity if you'd like to support the work of AFA. Reach out to the AFA Foundation. Walker, Chelsea, Riley, Jessica, Wesley—any of them would love to chat with you. And particularly as we head toward year-end, maybe you're sitting on some appreciated stock. Well, it just might be that that company is one that AFA wants to engage in. You could make a gift of the appreciated stock, no capital gains, goes directly to AFA. They could perhaps engage on it, then sell it, and get the double win—the triple win. You get the blessing, we get to affect change in corporate America, and then ultimately AFA gets to use those resources to advance its mission to proclaim the gospel, build up the church, and equip God's people.
Incredible. afafoundation.net is how you can get more information on that. Big thanks to Adam Sudduth, Patty Pumphrey, Taylor Standrich, and everybody here at FaithFi. Hope you have a wonderful weekend, and come back and join us next week. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.
Women have played a vital role in advancing the gospel from the very beginning. In Romans 16, Paul introduces us to Phoebe—a trusted partner and gospel patron whose generosity, influence, and service helped further his ministry. On this Faith & Finance on AFR, John Rinehart joins Rob West to explore Phoebe’s example and what it can teach us about using our work, relationships, and resources for gospel impact. Then it’s on to calls.
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