Jenna Ellis hosts American Family Radio in the morning
Frank Pavone : Jenna Ellis in the morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God because of truth and the biblical worldview. The U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect. The rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time.
Frank Pavone : This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Friday, April 10th and we had a wonderful share a thon the last three days. I so, so appreciate everyone who called in, made their monthly pledges, their one time gifts and their prayers and support for keeping American Family Radio Network on the air so that we get to do the ministry of talking about the things of truth and the education, understanding the times that we live in from a biblical worldview perspective. And each and every morning I get to wake up and join you to talk about news, of the day, political events, current events, culture, ah, and the three spheres of institutions that God ordained. Of course the civil government, which is mainly where we reside on this show, but then also the church government and the family government and how all of that interacts together under God's ordained authority and how his authority provides that legitimacy, to the institutions of this, of government that God has ordained and how you know, we have to follow that ordered liberty, so that we make sure that we have a measure of fairness, justice, moral uprightness, in our society.
Father Frank Pavone: How do we reconcile pro life with capital punishment
And so getting back to that today, I want to start off with you know, a topic that actually touches and concerns all three spheres of government, but also mainly is in the civil government context of pro life and a little bit different than kind of the typical pro life discussion which is of course around abortion or pro life policy. And talk about this in the context of justice and the biblical worldview on life, responsibility and accountability. We talked about this a little bit yesterday with Ed Vitagliano who is my co host for Sharathon, but talking about how our criminal justice system right now actually mirrors the same policy view that those who are pro abortion, pro death, that they also prefer and emulate, which is to say that they don't value life and it's very unjust. And when we have a system that right now fails accountability and justice when innocent life is taken, whether that's life in the womb or, or whether that's that is a, a human Being at any stage of life, from conception all the way till natural death. When murder happens, there needs to be justice and accountability. And there have been a couple of headlines this week, especially in the context of criminal justice, that that really I think are failing on the pro life front. And the first one of course is the young woman Irina, Zarutska, who was brutally murdered on public transportation on a train, and I think it was North Carolina last year. The accused attacker has now been found incompetent to stand trial, saying that, you know, he doesn't appreciate the consequences and the nature of his actions. And yet, you know, he brutally murdered this woman and is now not facing accountability. that would be unjust. And then, you know, the second is this absolutely horrific, murder back in 2022 of a FedEx worker, that abducted a seven year old girl and ended up brutally, murdering her. And whether or not he will obtain the death penalty. So he actually pled guilty to capital murder, which is, it's kind of shocking in this day and age that someone would actually plead guilty, rather than going through, you know, all of the steps and requiring that kind of due process. But he. So the only question that remains for the jury is whether or not to impose a life sentence or capital punishment. And my opinion, and obviously I'm not on the jury, but my opinion based on the brutality of the crime, based on, you know, the, all of the circumstances around it, if there's anything short of capital punishment that would be unjust. And there's often this question for Christians. How do we reconcile the pro life movement and valuing the inherent dignity and worth of every human being with capital punishment? And the obvious answer to that is because we value every human life. And so when there is an unjust, unlawful taking of human life, the Bible actually requires the civil government to impose the death penalty. So before I keep talking on too long, let's welcome in Father Frank Pavone, who's founders of Priests for Life, one of the foremost advocates for the pro life position. And often when you're on this show, Father Frank, that we're talking about the context of unborn babies. But the pro life movement is about human dignity and the value of life from the moment of conception all the way till natural death. And so the pro life position spans so much more than that it does
Frank Pavone : is because it's based on that simple truth that every human person is of of infinite value, reflects the image of God is redeemed by Lord Jesus, is united and sharing the divine nature. I mean, we just got through, you know, the celebration of the most holy days of the year with the death and resurrection of Jesus. And when I preach about, about Easter and Good Friday, I say, well, look, this answers the question what God thinks about human life. So we are, we're starting with that truth then, obviously, life at every stage, in every condition, that dignity remains. Circumstance takes it away, whether it's age or level of function or health or sickness. so, yes, that's our, like you just said, that's our ethic, and we apply it across the board.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so, you know, how do Christians then wrestle with that question of how to lawfully impose punishment and accountability, for the taking of life, the unjust taking of life, and reconcile that with due process, with some of those elements and, within the context of criminal justice.
Frank Pavone : Well, because the death penalty, just like, self defense, when sometimes you may have to harm or even kill a person or just war. I mean, this has come down to us from down through the centuries, the Christian teaching on this, including, as you said in the scriptures, that in these circumstances, the force that is used, sometimes deadly force, is precisely for the defense of life. So the clear distinction has to be made. And it's nice that we're bringing this up too, because it's very timely, because I want to also apply it to the war that's going on now. but the distinction has to be made clearly. And unfortunately, some religious leaders, even the Pope, is not adequately articulating this distinction. Even though he knows it, he's not adequately articulating it. And that is the distinction between violence and force. So if you, if you want to define clearly, you use the word murder. if you want to define clearly, you know, what is always prohibited. What is always prohibited is the direct intentional killing of the innocent. So if people want to say, well, we should not do any violence, it means targeting innocent people. Innocent. Now that innocent comes from the Latin word, in which is not, and nocens, which is harming. So someone who is not harming someone, so you don't have to act defensively because the person isn't on the offense. If one is innocent, not harming anyone, you can't attack them. So that's violence. Force, is a different definition. Now, violence includes force, whether it's pushing someone away, punching them, or even using some kind of lethal weapon. Force is included in violence. But force can also be distinguished from it. If you're not attacking the innocent, but rather defending the innocent. So violence is always prohibited, but sometimes force is used to defend the innocent. So then that opens the door to the death penalty, actions of self defense when no other means, is working or is possible, and even war. So for example, and I'll invoke Pope Leo again, he said, oh well you know, God doesn't want people waging war. And you know, I've commented on this a number of times on my social media over these recent days. What does waging war mean? He's not distinguishing violence from force waging war. You know, if you're talking about deliberately targeting the innocent, well that's what Iran does. That's what the Islamic terrorists do. That is never permitted. And you know what? God doesn't hear the prayers of those who are invoking Allah while they're flying airplanes into buildings. On the other hand, the use of force can be for defending the innocent. And that's exactly what the United States, Israel, and our friends have been, been doing over there. And you know, God bless the successes of our, of our military. those are, I think that are the distinctions we need to be making.
Whether force is justified and whether something is actually violence
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and you just absolutely nailed exactly where I wanted to go with this was to the war in Iran. Because you know, there have been a lot of conversations about just war theory and especially in light of you know, all of the commentary around you know, President Trump's post earlier this week about you know, there might be an end to a civilization in Iran and you know, whether or not you know, we, we could have a lot of opinions on that particular post. But but overall you know, whether force is justified and and whether something is actually violence in, in the sense of a of an overt action that is is not justified or is an initial aggression or versus a an action that may be violent but it's in self defense or it's otherwise justified, you know, those things have to be parsed out and looked at. I mean obviously if you know someone is coming into my house and I use aggression, to you know, to forcibly remove them, or I call the cops and they do that, right, that's justified. But if it's just an unprovoked sort of attack, like what we saw on that train, with the horrible murder of that innocent young woman, that's something that's unprovoked and there needs to be accountability. And so it's not as simple as just saying, well if you're pro life, then that means that you're never for aggression, you're never for self defense, you're never for capital punishment. we have to have a comprehensive view of what pro life itself actually means in context and also then what, actors or agents can commit those particular acts. So for example, if, if that young woman's family just went and, and took out their aggression and and you know, obvious emotions and all of that, and had some sort of vigilante justice, which by definition means taking it into your own hands, they wouldn't be justified under our system of law. And does that reflect a biblical worldview? Well, yes, liberty must be, order must be ordered. If everyone had the capacity to mete out capital punishment whenever and wherever we saw fit, that would be utter chaos. And so that's why Even in Romans 13, you know, the government, the civil government should carry the sword. And carrying the sword isn't just about civil punishment. That also is in terms of just war as well and military action.
Frank Pavone : Yes, it certainly is. you know, this, as we talk about this. And, you know, the good thing is we don't all have to figure this out for ourselves from square one. We have inherited the scriptures and, you know, centuries of, reflection by theologians, pastors and government officials on this. So it's good that we were taking advantage of what we've been given. But, you know, there's a deeper, trend I notice here. And I think ultimately this is not moral and philosophical as much as it's something psychological. Because when people take this notion of, okay, well, to be pro life, basically is to be pacifist, which, like you and I are saying here, is not correct. notice what other areas it applies to, not just the physical use of force, if someone is attacking an individual, a family or a nation. But how about, for example, with, how aggressive we should be in correcting error, or let's say, rebuking public officials who are, well, pro abortion. And you know, we always have this conflict within the Catholic community about, you know, you got a very clear teaching from the church. You've got very, very clearly pro abortion Catholic public officials. When are the bishops going to exercise some discipline? And then you have this whole philosophy, and again, it's something psychological going on where we want to be so nice that we don't want to exercise any, and I'll put it in quotations, force against them either. Now, that force might come in terms of a public rebuke. It might come in terms of a canonical Prohibition on receiving communion or some kind of punishment. So you started the discussion talking about, well, there's capital punishment. Some are very averse to even thinking that's justified. but what about other forms of punishment? I find it kind of goes together that you have this whole cadre of people, you know, within the Christian community, that are so averse to any kind of force, any kind of punishment, any kind of fighting, like real aggressive in the best sense of the word, fighting for our values, our principles, our faith. why is that? There's like, it's like a weakness, it's like a it's like a sickness of sorts where, where it's like we can't respond anymore. And I think also it ties into what think about anger. We could, we could talk about what we think about war, what we think about capital punishment, but what do we think about anger? Now scripture says anger by itself isn't bad. There's a lot of just anger. Jesus exercised it. The prophets certainly exercise it. There is justified anger. But I think that some of these same people who are taking a pacifist position, if we really probe to them, I think we find them also ambivalent about whether it's ever a good idea to be angry. And so I think we need to have a whole examination of conscience on this across the board.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. Wow. really well said. And we have to take a break here, Father Frank Pavone, but he's going to stick with us through the break and we'll be talking more about this and you know, what a great discussion especially for a Friday on just war on aggression, on pro life and even on our own thoughts of, you know, how we, we process kind of, you know, these day to day challenges. So we will be right back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
Jenna Ellis welcomes Father Frank Pavone to American Family Radio
: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm here with my special guest, Father Frank Pavone, founder of Priests for Life. And you should be be following him on X and Facebook and everywhere that he streams, which is a lot of places actually and has some really good content and ah, resources for pro life. And again we're not just talking about pro life in the context of the whole abortion debate. of course that is a huge, huge ah, battlefield and battleground for the pro life movement. But as we've been discussing a, ah, pro life is a, is a much wider and more comprehensive position that recognizes the inherent dignity, worth and value of every human being made in the image of God from not just conception until birth, but conception all the way until natural death. So the pro life position would be against things like physician assisted suicide. We can't arbitrarily determine when to cut off our own life. The, Bible says that our days are numbered by the Lord. And we also know that, he has a purpose for us with all of the days that we live on this earth. If you are living and breathing today, then God has a plan and a purpose and a calling and a ministry for your life, and that includes your family. You should be part of a church to exercise your skills and gifts, in the context of the corporate body of Christ. And then also in our civil government, in our community, we have the privilege and the opportunity to be informed and also participants, in our civil government. We don't live at least yet in a, in a total dictatorship, like others, even some of our contemporaries and other countries that really have no influence on their government at all. And they have to, you know, just navigate how to be the best, Christian possible in that context. And so, you know, all of these things matter to the comprehensive view.
Father Frank says people suppress their own anger because they don't feel it
And before the break, Father Frank, you were saying something about, anger and also, you know, how that relates to this whole concept of a just war of aggression and of this whole idea of justice and how this fits into the broader context of pro life.
Frank Pavone : Yes. and I was observing that there seems to be, a whole contingent of people in our, in our Christian community that it's like anything that is forceful, aggressive, whether physically or intellectually, in terms of church or state discipline, or even just getting out there and aggressively pushing for or fighting for our values. And I think it's a real problem because if we don't have a proper appreciation. Let's take again. Anger. You know, it's a passion. It's one of our passions. It's neither good nor bad in and of itself. scripture says be angry, but do not sin. In, other words, if we can take that passion is energy. So if we get, if we. I think, Jenna, first of all, we've got a big problem when, certain people have gone so far down this path of saying, oh no, no, no, no, we must never be angry. They end up suppressing their own feelings of anger. They don't even know when they're getting angry anymore because they don't let themselves feel it. Well, with the things going on that you and I talk about all the time, whether it's the, you know, massive scale killing of children in the womb, the oppression of religious freedom, the anti American things that we have to deal with every day in the news. if we're not getting angry, you know, the whole transgender thing and mutilation of children, et cetera, et cetera, we can all go down the litany. If we're not getting angry at some of these things, either we're not paying attention, which of course some people aren't, or on the other hand, and I don't know which is worse, we have disconnected ourselves from our own humanity. And I say to people, we gotta be getting angry at this stuff. Now that doesn't mean you go lash out and do wrong to people. That's where we take that anger, that energy, we submit it to the Holy Spirit and we say, lord, you've given me this, you've given me this, anger because you made me human. You didn't make me an angel, you made me human. So now I'm asking you, Lord, direct it to productive, fruitful, life giving, kingdom advancing activity. And Jenna, if we're praying that way, we allow ourselves to feel those feelings, engage those passions and then redirect them under the Holy Spirit to fruitful activity, then we're going to have more energy to do the good works that we're called to do in Christ.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said. And you know, that reminds me of the verse that we had this week for Sharathan, which was from, Matthew saying when Jesus, was responding to the pharisees in Matthew 22, and he replied, for they asked the question, what's the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. And this is exactly what you're talking about. And you know, I, I have learned too. And, and I know I, I love that, I can look back on my life over, you know, the last 10 years or even 20 years and 30 and 40 as I'm getting older, and see a market difference and a change of even my own personal attitude toward my fellow humans. Right? And, and not just people that I love, but people also that I interact with and, that maybe are, you know, more or less frustrating to me or, you know, other things or even, you know, that how our society, views children right now, you know, it's almost like so many people view them as frustrating and incompetent, and they're just, you know, this hassle that we have to put up with with. Rather than. If you have a biblical view of every human being is created in the image of God, then you have that compassion and genuine love of the Lord for every human being. And now it doesn't mean you get along with everybody. No, but it means that you are slower to anger. You know, you are slower to frustration or, or slower to selfishness even. I mean, you know, my. Yeah, my nephews, which are, you know, they're seven, five, and then my niece is three. Right. they're. They're little people, you know, and it takes, a lot sometimes, and it takes a lot of patience. And And yet it's just. It's so amazing to watch them grow. And when you have the view of Christ of, you know, let the little children come unto me, you know, it's. It's a completely different view than what the culture has, which is, if this person isn't serving me, then I don't care about them or get frustrated with them.
Frank Pavone : Yes.
Jenna Ellis: And, and I think it's the same thing with anger, you know, even toward your friends or your own family. It's like you have so much more patience and understanding when you have the mindset of Christ and you can look at what, you know, what, what everybody is going through and not just yourself and your own circumstances, but say, you know, ah, everybody is going through a lot. And we can have that compassion and we can have that understanding and that mindset and view of Christ. When we see our fellow humans, not as, as just people here to, to benefit us, but as people who are made in the image of God. I mean, it really does change your whole perspective.
Nancy Pearce: There's a distinction between a contemplative and utilitarian view
Frank Pavone : Well, speaking of that perspective, so you're, you're making a distinction here that I think I, call the distinction between a contemplative view of life, and simply a, you know, a, view that says, you know, what can I, what can I calculate? What can I gain? And I use the example of a tree. If you look at a tree, you can go two directions, and they're not necessarily, you know, mutually exclusive. But you can look at a tree and you could say, okay, how much lumber can I get from this tree? what's the economic value of it? I can make some wood, I can make some paper. It could help a construction project that's perfectly legitimate. Or I could look at the tree and say, wow, how beautiful. And I can let it influence me. So I could either think of how can I influence it, how is it useful to me? Or how am I being moved by it? Now the latter is a contemplative view of life. We could take the same view of people. Now there's a legitimate way in which we use the services of people. I mean, you had me on here as a guest today, which I always love doing. In a sense, you're utilizing me, my, my, my ability to comment on certain things. And that's perfectly legitimate. You need guests on the show. And we can look at people who say, hey, maybe I could hire that person for my company. Or, hey, this person could help me fix my car, whatever it might be. And that's perfectly, again, perfectly legitimate. But then we look, person would say, well, how am I moved by them? How am I inspired by them? How am I in a more contemplative receiving mode, seeing the image of God and being, being moved with even a sense of awe and wonder, which is what we should have for the people around us. So these two mindsets, it's not that we choose one or the other, but we do have to understand the difference. And we have to make sure that we're not being, overwhelmed with just the how can I use this person, this product, this thing? Because if that's the major focus, then we're going to get very frustrated very fast. We're going to be very, very angry very easily. But we're going to lose out on the sense of wonder, awe and reverence, beauty and really all creation around us pointing us to God. We're going to lose out on a key aspect of life. And it's going to be harder for us to have that respect for human dignity that we've been talking about today.
Jenna Ellis: Yes, absolutely. And what you're talking about is a biblical worldview versus a utilitarian view, right? And just looking at people as a product or as a commodity and the commodification of humanity, has really been, I think, a sin of this nation and especially this era. I mean, we could, you know, look back at, unjust wars and you know, the commodification of, of the military draft and, you know, various, militaries in world history. We could look back on, you know, all kinds of ways of utilitarian, view of humanity, but especially in our modern era, and the commodification of children, for one thing, the commodification of, patients. When you're talking about, you know, The LGBTQ movement and, that agenda that is, creating, this. This, medical system that is causing all of these dependence and these unnecessary surgeries, and the. The butchering of their bodies, just to advance a false narrative. I mean, there are so many different ways that, that our modern society, I think, is erring on that side. I mean, not to mention abortion. I mean, that's the biggest commodification to say, you know, that. That, children are expendable as a consequence of sex when, it doesn't suit our lifestyle preference. Right. And.
Frank Pavone : Right, exactly.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so when we're talking about, looking at human beings as, so inherently valuable and sacred, honestly, I mean, our bodies, the Bible says, are the temple of the Holy Spirit. As Christians, and we have to honor that. Nancy Pearcey, one of my very dear friends, she wrote an excellent book years ago and, kind of at the fore of the whole, big rise of the trans movement called Love Thy Body. And talking about how, you know, we're not just. Just spiritual beings, we're also physical beings. And God created us, to understand and, and care for our physical bodies and. And we need to care for and understand, the physical and spiritual of every human being. And so when we talk about, the pro life movement, I mean, that's really what it is, is caring for the physical aspect of the human person, because we care so much about the spiritual and ultimately the eternity of, the human being.
Frank Pavone : You know, it's a matter of when we see the dignity of the human person in that contemplative view that we were just talking about. we know that where there are certain boundaries, when we say life is sacred, we mean it comes from God, it belongs to God, it goes back to God. And that means there's certain boundaries as to what we can do, what we can't do. And we can apply them to every issue across the board. and so, for example, with reproduction, we can assist reproduction, we can assist couples that face infertility, but there's only so far we can go. We can't replace, the way that God has written into our nature how we reproduce with a totally artificial means. Medicine can help. In fact, I think you and I did a whole conversation one time about this. This in a deep dive format, if I recall. And, there are likewise boundaries in terms of when you talk about improving the human species. So this whole transhumanism, movement, yes, we always have to be looking to improve human life precisely because of human dignity and precisely because medical science, technology, ah, research, you know, the things we're learning now from the Artemis mission, we go out into space, we always benefit humanity. We learn more. We're always looking to improve life. But there's a certain boundary. We can't create a new species. We can't start combining human genetic material with animals or computers. We can't take it in our. Because then we're crossing a boundary and we're, number one, pretending that we are God and we could do better than the Creator. And number two, we're missing out on some very fundamental truth, which is we go from glory to glory to become more in the image of Christ. You want to talk about transhumanism? It's all there already. Jesus Christ makes us more and more into himself. But we don't get there on our own effort, our own technology, or our own desire to change or, quote, improve upon the species. This is where we got to recognize the boundaries that God has placed there. We can improve. We can always rejoice in the gifts of technology, but using them. And here's the key. In the service of the human person as made in the image of God. And now where exactly those boundaries, where exactly the boundaries are that, that generates, that you work out, you hash out, you know, as you look at each individual issue, but the overall awareness that there are those boundaries by human nature and by the God who created it, and you have reverence and respect for those boundaries. This is the formula, Jenna, overall, for what you're. You're laying out today as this, this broad view of, of, of pro life and, and dignity.
Jenna: I think transhumanism is potentially dangerous for Christianity
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And, you know, this, this kind of gives rise to a whole other topic that I think is the most dangerous, possibility that we are on the cusp. Cusp of in 20, 26 and beyond, especially with artificial intelligence, with the rise of, you know, modern technology. And, you know, there's. There are a lot of things that are good in that. I mean, I have to have a root canal this week, which is, you know, really exciting. And I'm thankful that there is modern technology that they're not nearly as painful or as, you know, as much, of, a recovery as it used to be. Because there are modern tools that can go in and you're done in like 30 minutes. Right? Those are good things. Those are good advancements. I'm thankful for, you know, medication that allows us to get over infections a lot easier. I mean, you know, those types of things are great, and those Are discoveries that are already embedded from the foundation of the world, that God created and he's allowing us to continue to discover. And though the applications often are very good, but we have to have the Christian perspective of asking the question, what is the ultimate goal? And if the goal, like it is for the, the topic overall of transhumanism, if the goal is to basically become, to live forever and to become eternal in a temporal sense, not recognizing that we already are eternal as spiritual beings, we are discounting God's authority and how he has already told us it is appointed unto man once to die, we will never live forever in our mortal bodies. we know that God tells us that we will eventually have eternal bodies as Christians and you know, we have the whole philosophy of soteriology or the study of salvation and how all of that works together. But as we are now in this temporal life with all of these, you know, attempted discoveries in technology of you know, saying, well, we're going to cryo freeze our bodies, we're going to try to, you know, live forever with all these different injections or you know, technology or eventually you know, upload our brains into, you know, this one big, global system of artificial intelligence and you know, and have kind of a, a, a, a human that is coupled with artificial intelligence, that is trying to be a substitute for God. And, and it's, it's absolutely evil and it's wrong. And we are at the cusp of that. And I think that there has to be a differentiation between, you know, chat GPT and, and, and looking up. Okay, give me the best, you know, references for you know, root canal specialists in my area in Florida. Right. That's a good use versus what we're talking about with transhumanism and kind of separate that divide in terms of policy and pro life.
Frank Pavone : Well, that's right. You know, Christianity is always a balance. You know, we want to avoid the two extremes. You know, one extreme, saying that technology will be our God, technology is the source of eternal life. no, we cannot do it on our own, as one extreme. And then the other extreme is saying, well, because we believe in God, because we have Christ, because we have the scriptures, we just say a hard no to all technology, period. I mean, that's not right either because we're not taking advantage of the gifts of God. So the balance is always essential to have that balance. Christianity is not a, you know, glum faces, negativity, always saying no to everything, anti science, you Know, people have this caricature of Christianity, but sometimes they get the caricature because some Christians misunderstand their own faith and they go off into those extremes. And I think, Jenna, the other dynamic is that those who have not heard the gospel, those who have forgotten the gospel, or those who, God help them, have heard but then rejected the gospel, you know, there's a vacuum. I mean, you can't. You, you, you can. If you want to walk away from the gospel, that's one thing, but you cannot take out of your heart that desire for eternity. So you're going to fill it with something else. If you ignore Christ, who said I am the way, well, then you're gonna find some other way. You're not gonna end up, you know, not wanting some form of eternal joy, eternal life, eternal happiness, eternal love. and what we see with this trans, transgender stuff and turning technology into God is the filling of that vacuum.
Jenna Ellis: And we have to take one more break here, but, Father Frank Pavone will join us on the flip side. And we will be right back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
Father Frank Pavone discusses pro life with Jenna Ellis on American Family Radio
: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm here with my special guest, Father Frank Pavone. And we're talking about pro life as applied to a much larger scale, and philosophical and policy view than, typical. When we talk about pro life, typically that's just confined to the context of unborn life, and that's an incredibly important battlefield. But while we were talking before the break about transhumanism and kind of this, this whole era that we're on the cusp of, where science isn't just about, treating disease or, or. Or basically bringing the human body back into its. Its, its normal natural state from decay or disease, but to actually try to redesign humanity itself. So we've, we've gone into gene editing, to AI integration, to trying to ex, extend lifespan. And so the question is no longer how can we improve life? I mean, that's, that's basically the, the medical sciences, right? How can we cure, how can we improve the quality of life, life? But the question has kind of become, what is life? And some who are, for transhumanism especially, think that we have the authority to redefine it. And so this is a movement that seeks to transcend human limitations using technology. And I think from a philosophical worldview perspective, Father Frank, this is the same error as assuming that we have the authority to redefine life as Roe vs Wade and its progeny tried to. To say, well, you know, personhood attaches sometime after conception, and so it's not really a person if you. If you kill it when it's just a zygote or it's just at, you know, the. The initial, you know, the first trimester, however they want to artificially, randomly and arbitrarily define it, we are. We have been for years and decades, attempted to redefine life, and we simply don't have that authority.
Frank Pavone : You know, it is. It is part of the same cloth. And I think one of the guideposts that people can use, to determine whether they're crossing any of these boundaries is are we divorcing, thought from. From biology? So, thought or will. So I will value this baby in the womb, and that will determine that baby's right to live whether I value it, whether I choose. Now it's the same mistake again. Now we're prescinding now from the biology of the baby, we're not being moved, as we were talking before, about what God has written into that physical body. We're not having a sense of reverence and awe. We're thinking we can destroy it. similarly with the. With the whole, transgender ideology, there's a similar disconnect of thought and, will on the one hand and biology on the other, where I say, if I'm a man and I say I'm a woman tomorrow, my thought simply does not change that biology, and I'm not respecting it anymore. And I think that's one of the. I think there's a number of questions people could ask themselves and make distinctions to keep on the moral. The moral right track. Another one of those distinctions is aid versus replace. So, like we said before, you can help couples with their fertility. There's plenty of scientifically and ethically solid ways of doing that, but you can't replace it with S2 babies. you can, aid intelligence. So, AI, you know, chatgpt. I mean, we use it every day. You know, we should use it. It. but I say to my staff, you know, even. Even while encouraging them to use it to make their work even, even more effective, I say to them, look, if I ask you for a summary or a series of suggestions about A, B, or C, you know, use AI to your heart's content, but don't just send me what it. What it. What it, spat out on your. On your computer. I want the results of your human mind digesting that material. You know, I can tell the difference, you know, I mean the more you use this stuff you can tell and someone is sending you something. I mean, we did an essay contest recently for Pro Life, a national essay contest. And yet you can see a couple of these essays that came in. They were totally AI generators say, sorry, you know, this doesn't count. You know, we want to hear what your mind comes up with. AI is not meant to replace the human mind, it's meant to assist it. So give me the research do in five seconds what would take me five hours to find by research. Good, good, that'll help me. But then I'm going to put my mind to it and I'm going to get the insights I need to get, learn the things I need to learn, and then express the thoughts that I come up with by my human intelligence. So aid, not replace.
Jenna Ellis: Yes, and that's such a great way to express it. I mean I am not at all of the opinion that, you know, AI, should never be used. And you know, even among colleges and universities, it's a really big question right now. You know, should students be allowed to use AI well as an aid and a tool, much like a calculator, for example, or a laptop or you know, some of these, or overhead projector or whatever, or some of these CAD programs, you know, in engineering, those are aids and tools. But but it's the same reason why, you know, the astronauts that are, that are ah, above us right now in the Artemis, there is still a lot of manual effort that goes into that. It's not just a self propelled, you know, robotic, rocket that is completely without, without human design and intelligence and also human control. And we need that, and we need to understand those limitations. But we especially need to understand those limitations when it comes to aiding versus trying to replace the human body. And especially how much, we cannot in a physical reality. And we are in a physical reality. We're confined to a physical reality. We have absolutely no way in a physical reality to affect the spiritual realm. that's where our prayers and you know, we absolutely can, and the Lord can affect, the spiritual realm, but nothing that we do, you know, through artificial intelligence or technology that's physical can affect the spiritual unless it's demonic already spiritual. Right. So we have to make sure that we're careful about those divides as well.
Father Frank Pavone: Artemis mission inspires awe and wonder in astronauts
Frank Pavone : Well, you know, you know Jenna, this discussion is so great and I want to apply the art, this Artemis mission to everything we've been saying here. So Far. There's so much technology there, there's so much science, rightly so, but they're also, there is also awe and wonder, you know, and you see it in these astronauts, you know, and they were getting those glimpses of Earth in the first couple of days, wow, you guys look great. Remember one of them said that you're looking great, you know, and you're looking at Earth. And I was just looking at it as a planetary body, looking at it as home. they expressed in some of their press conferences, you know. Oh, you know what it was when. Of course I live right near the space center there. And so I was watching the launch from my parking lot and I was listening to all that pre launch technical stuff, right? They go through these long checklists, they ask all the different people that are in charge of different technical aspects of the launch if it's a go, if there's a green light, if everything looks good. And then you heard all this technical jargon going back and forth. And then at a certain point they asked each of the crew members, are we all set to go? And then it started to get more of that awe and that contemplative. Yes, we are ready to go for our families, we are ready to go for our teammates, we are ready to go for all humanity. And there was a beautiful blend there of the technology down to precision that is unimaginable. And the human spirit. Why are we doing this in the first place? Because you know what? There's no reason for us to stay confined to Earth. If we can reach space. Let's get there. Let's colonize the whole solar system. Let's, let's get out there for, for the sake of humanity. That, that this marvelous gift of God made in his image will continue even if something terrible happens on Earth. We're gonna, there's no reason why we shouldn't be inhabiting other, other space bodies out there. So it's like there's a spiritual thing here. There's a. The spirit of humanity. It's also the American spirit. Discovery, Adventure, Exc Expansion in the spirit of our Creator. It's all motivated, it's all motivated by the dignity of the human person.
Jenna Ellis: Amen to that. And it's the spirit of our Creator God that we want to be more and more like him. So. Father Frank Pavone, thanks so much for joining me on this amazing discussion. As always, reach me and my team, Jenna F r dot net.
