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Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
Jenna Ellis: Good morning, M and welcome. Welcome to Jenna Ellis in the Morning. And you know, it's amazing when you step back and you look at the physical universe that God has presented us to in the reality that we are escapably present in how much science and archeology and the study of what we can observe always showcases that God's word is true. There has been no discovery in science or archaeology or geology or any of the physical disciplines that have contradicted, contradicted factually the account of scripture from a young earth creation which which the physical universe proves, to the testimony and the account of a literal physical Jesus Christ who is alive and is an historical figure that literally, ah, walked the streets of Jerusalem. And it was amazing, in my first trip to Israel and this was back in 2014, to actually go see where Jesus walked, to see the Garden of Gethsemane, to see where historians believe was the site of the crucifixion. And as our tour guide said, it's not necessarily that it happened at this specific spot, but it is that it happened. And so much though of the archaeology and the truth we can say in this actual literal physical spot is where the accounts and the testimony of Scripture actually took place. Because the Bible is an historical document, among other things. And it's just really incredible. And I remember our tour guide, as we were first going up to Jerusalem and because there are all sides, you would literally go up to Jerusalem as the Bible says. He said for those of you that it's your first trip here, you've read The Bible in black and white after this trip. Now you'll read in color. And I just thought what an amazing perspective, that is. And I was listening as well to a recent guest speaker at my parents church, who is talking about the biblical account of creation and what the earth and also the universe shows about the truth of God and how God is an ordered God. And so we expect to see orders in our physical universe and we expect then as well to see order in our society in a legitimate, ah, government system. We expect justice, we expect truth, we expect fairness. We expect order because that is God's design and it's part of us as human beings made in his image. It's part of the dignity of human life and it's part of nature around us. And so my good friend Dinesh d' Souza has a brand new book, you, you all need to go and order it, pre order on Amazon. And it's called the Stones Cry Out. And it's it's more personal I think then where Dinesh has gone before. And I always love reading him books, seeing his films. And this one is about biblical archeology, prophecy and the last day. So it's the Stones Cry out, go on Amazon, right now and pre order. But Dinesh, you know, take us through why you chose to focus on this and, and your trip to Israel.
Not only large events in the Bible are now being archaeologically corroborated
Dinesh D'Souza: Well, my wife Debbie and I went to Israel the end of 2022 for the first time. And right away we were struck, particularly in Jerusalem, by the fact that you're in the land of the Bible now. We live at a time when a lot of the cities of the world have become very homogenized. They look a lot like each other, but Israel is not like that. You have this feeling, that sort of the biblical landscape that we're familiar from the time that we were children, there it is. these are the places, these are where these great events took place. And then I was exposed to the artifacts of biblical archaeology. Now I just got a kind of appetizer or taste of it. But I was kind of blown away by the fact that not only large events, but minor details in the Bible are now being archaeologically corroborated. And so as we were coming back to America, said, to my wife, I'm like, you know, I don't understand why this information is not shouted from the rooftops of like every synagogue and every church. And as we thought about it, we realized that there are two reasons why that doesn't happen. One, the pastors are typically not trained in archeology, so they're a little bit reluctant to dive into a field which is alien to them. and second, the archaeological community is mostly secular. Those guys wanted think of themselves as being like, we're scientists, you know, we, we don't confirm the Bible. The Bible is all about theology and revelation. So we don't want to be seen as in the Bible business. And so for these reasons, you essentially have a gap, which is that these discoveries are coming faster and faster. the discipline itself is about 150 years old, but the most important discoveries are in the last 25 years. And so it's like God is speaking back through the stones, but there's sort of nobody or few people who are actually hearing the message. So this is really what inspired a three year study of the topic. I'm very excited about this new book. And you know, the, the title the Stones Cry out comes from the scene where Jesus is coming into Jerusalem with the disciples. And the disciples are yelling and screaming and shouting and the, the Pharisees are really mad and they say to Jesus like, shut them up, quiet them down. And Jesus goes, well, even if I did that, the stones will cry out. And so I love the urgency of it and the, that God is now speaking to us not just through the great thunderous language of revelation that you find in the Bible, but also quietly through the message of the stones, through the earth itself, and through science and archeology.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I love what you said about how Christians should be focused on this because, you know, the Bible is about theology or the knowledge of God and who he is and how Christians can ultimately any individuals can come into a saving world, knowledge of Christ and repent and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. that is the ultimate purpose of human beings is to know and worship and love the Lord. and yet the Bible also is more than just this book on wisdom or, just a way, to, to come into the knowledge of the Lord. that's what a lot of, a lot of seculars kind of relegated to is just a book on religion. As if this is one pathway. And you can also read a book on Buddhism or you can read, you know, the wisdom of Aesop's fables. And they, they tend to categorize the Bible as just a book on religion when it's also a lot more. I mean it gives an account from literally in the beginning God, from the moment of creation all the way until the end of all things. And, when this heaven and earth will pass away and, when the restoration of all things will occur. And so God is the divine author, given us so much history and knowledge as well in the Bible. And so what, what role do you believe that archaeology and physical science should play in the church and in the greater understanding of how we can come to know God even better and more thoroughly through his creation? And the evidence that we have that shows that that theology and that wisdom in the Bible is true.
Dinesh D'Souza: You know, it's a remarkable thing about Judaism and Christianity that God chose to reveal himself in a very particular and, some might even say eccentric way. What I mean is God could have chosen to reveal himself in a kind of universal way, right? God could have said, all right, I'm going to stamp my name on the moon, I'm going to put the ten Commandments in the sky. And that way people all over the world can see it at the same time. But, but interestingly, God didn't do that. God chooses a particular people in a particular place at a particular time. And the Bible is a very specific unfolding through history. First of all, the Bible takes place between, excluding the account of creation and Noah. It starts kind of the historical part of it really begins decisively with Abraham. That's about 2000 BC and the Bible concludes with the Book of Acts, the early Christian movement. This is around. So the Bible's covering the sweep of 20, 50 years. Also, the Bible is specific with regard to place most of Jesus's ministry. Well, all of Jesus's ministry is in Israel, mainly to the Jews, with a sprinkling of Gentiles. and so the Old Testament takes place, in. Well, the Old Testament involves empires like Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, and of course, Israel. And then the NewSong Testament pushes into Rome, into Greece, into territories that we would now call Turkey. And so this is the actual physical landscape and timescale of the Bible. Right. And, what archeology does is it. It basically says, all right, let's go find those places. Let's see what we can discover about these events. And the beauty of it is that there are now truly dozens, maybe even hundreds of archeological discoveries corroborating this and that and doing it through the entire sweep of the Bible. So my book follows the kind of chronology I begin with the patriarchs. What can we. You know, you wouldn't expect to know anything about a guy like Abraham. He lived in a tent, he had herds of cattle. He never, the only property he ever bought was his own kind of, was a cave for him, and his family to be buried. so how are we going to find Abra? Where can we find his footprints? It would seem impossible, but it's not impossible.
Dinesh: Biblical archeology is a great resource for pastors
And so the excitement for me here is just. It's almost like I've made a parallel Bible in my head here, where I can drop in the dates and drop in all the artifacts. and it's a great resource also for pastors, because think of how many sermons you and I have heard. A sermon on Jeremiah, a sermon on Isaiah, a, sermon on King David, without having any sense of, like, well, what century are we talking about? Well, where exactly did Jeremiah live? and what exactly was going on at the time? So we shouldn't look at the Bible just as a series of morality tales or parables. It does contain those, but it's an historical account, and an archeology is now giving it astounding support.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said. And I remember listening to a sermon by Vadi, Bakam, who was saying that, you know, the Bible is, an account of history, and we need to understand the parallel world history that was going on at the time to understand what the accounts in Scripture contain. And that, these. These accounts, they're not Bible stories in the sense that they're not, you know, fairy tales. They're real accounts. they're not just placed in the Bible as case studies. And often church pastors end up, doing that because the. Because unfortunately, the greater swath of, especially, you know, the modern evangelical Christian doesn't necessarily understand the parallel world history. And pastors, I think, have failed to teach that. We often decontextualize and just, end up allegorizing and saying, okay, like, for example, how many sermons Dinesh have you heard on, well, you know, David slew Goliath. So what are the five stones in your life that can slay the big giant in your life? And it's like that. That's not what. That that account is put into Scripture for. And so when we look at the parallel world history and the truth of what these archaeological discoveries and what the physical world around us show about the truth of this history. part of this is, is that when we see that there are no physical contradictions that have ever been discovered, nor ever will, obviously, but none that have ever contradicted Scripture, we can then trust that what the Bible says on other things that we are called to take by faith, then, are true. And that's the logical Inference.
Dinesh D'Souza: Absolutely. Very well, very well said. I want to add two brief points. One is that this kind of archaeological investigation cannot be done and has not been done for any other religious book. you can't archaeologically go verify, like the Quran or the Buddhist scriptures or the Hindu scriptures. So think about it. The Bible is the only text that is capable of withstanding the most skeptical, withering, scientific, investigation. and that's what, keeping in mind the second is that there are passages in the Bible that seem on first glance to be preposterous. Right? David, this little guy Slews, you know, is able to somehow defeat Goliath. Samson can pull down the temple. There's a very, interesting scene when the Israelites are crossing into the promised land. They're going across the land of Moab, the Moabites, modern day Jordan. and the king of Moab, who doesn't like the Israelites, rounds up this fortune teller. His name is Balaam, son of Beor. And he says, curse the Israelites, I want them to have trouble and plagues and so on as they're crossing our land. so they don't make it to the promised land. And this Balaam guy is like, yeah, I'm up for it. But, but the Bible says that God intervened and prevented him from cursing the Israelites. Now this Balaam character is, you know, he's an odd fellow. He apparently has a donkey and according to the Bible, he talks to his donkey. So you can just imagine skeptics like, having a field day, right? You have all these scholars sitting in places like Oxford or Gottingen and they're like, sitting in my armchair. You know, this seems ridiculous to me. That clearly wasn't, this is all a made up account. and the typical Christian response is, well, you know, just take it as a sort of morality tale. so the Christians don't defend this because they don't know how to. The remarkable thing is that in Jordan recently, in recent decades, archaeologists are digging in an obscure part of Jordan and they find an old plaster inscription. And it says the following, the warnings and sayings of Balaam, son of Beor.
Jenna Ellis: Whoa.
Dinesh D'Souza: So think about it. First of all, it's the same first name Balaam, same dad Beor, same place, Jordan, which is where Joshua and the Israelites crossed over. And same profession. Because the warnings and sayings implies that this guy was some sort of a soothsayer or fortune teller. So suddenly this minor figure in the Bible, this cameo appearance guy, jumps out of the Bible and into the pages of History via the pathway of archeology. And my book is just thick with example upon example. Not just dealing, as I mentioned, with the big events, but tiny episodes like this where sometimes the archaeologists will find something, a seal, a clay seal in Jerusalem. And you look at it, has a name and they're like, I don't even know who this is. But then two years later someone goes, let's look it up in the Bible and there's the guy in the book of Jeremiah. So this happens again and again. And so think of how exhilarating it is for as a believer to see this and how confounding it is to an atheist who has been sitting in his armchair and saying this stuff is all made up. And meanwhile the archaeologists digging out of the ground are like, actually, no.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and what a great point that the Bible is the only, document that can be simultaneously proven accurate and there's no other religious text that has that same, that, that same ability, to be corroborated with physical evidence. I mean all of these things just simply point to the fact that the Bible is true and scripture repeatedly grounds itself and the theological claims in real people, real places and real events. And so, ah, Dinesh's book is the stones cry out Biblical archaeology, Prophecy and the Last days. Go to Amazon right now. Pre order it. it's going to be amazing. I can't wait to read it. He's going to stick with us through this break and we will be right, back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
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Dinesh D'Souza: welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Dinesh d' Souza writes about Biblical archaeology and prophecy
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm here with my special guest this morning, Dinesh d' Souza on his brand new book the Stones Cry out to Biblical archaeology, Prophecy and the Last Days. Pre order it today on Amazon. this is going to be a great resource for you and for your church. And as we've been discussing, you know, these types of confirmations of the accuracy and the historicity of scripture really need to be taught in churches, for homeschool parents. I mean you be teaching this, in your schoolroom setting and for any parents, you know, regardless of where you send your kids to school. they need to understand world history, and they need to understand, how the biblical history and the. This account fits in to all of that. And just before the break, Dinesh, you were talking about how, you know, there were so many things in scripture that, that prior to some archaeological discoveries, the secularists were saying, well, that's not true. Nobody's ever heard of, you know, this pharaoh or that king or this part of history. And then later, when there are archaeological discoveries, wow, look at that. It's the exact same person that the Bible was already referencing, you know, thousands of years ago. And so with this, as well as some of the scientific discoveries, like Paul talking about in the NewSong Testament, you know, the things that are seen are made up of things that are unseen. You know, talking about, the atom that hadn't been discovered yet and how. And, DNA and how, you know, we are made up even as human beings, as seen of the unseen. And people before those discoveries thought, well, that's ridiculous. What does that even mean? And so I think we can have two, at least two, but two really big implications from this. one is that some of the things that maybe we don't yet understand in Scripture, we simply haven't made the scientific discovery that corroborates that and supports that. But we can take the Bible at its word because it's always been proven true with our continued growth and knowledge of understanding of the universe. And also, I think we can extend that as well as we've talked about, to the truth and the accuracy of the gospel, but also the truth and the accuracy of prophecy and the last days, which is also part of your book. So how do you think that Christians should think about this in the biblical context?
Dinesh D'Souza: Well, I think that the, power of this archaeology, also raises the question of, like, why are we finding about this now? Right? Think of it. King David's palace has sat under the ground in Jerusalem for 3,000 years. It's very interesting that it's in our own time, in fact, in our own century, this century, that it was excavated. and that tells me that God is sort of sending us a message, speaking almost a different language. the Bible normally is written in a kind of language of declaration, not proof. Right in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. It's an amazing statement. It's sort of fascinating because if you think about it like, who's talking? Right? Not God. It's not, in the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth. There's evidently an observer who is recording this, but no one was there. So the Bible is sort of thick with this kind of mystery, and it speaks in the language of Revelation. Now what's interesting is that in modern times, in a secular age, a lot of skeptics were like, well, this couldn't be, that can't be, and so on. But over the last 150 years, archaeology has first gradually and then more speedily, and now most speedy of all, unfurling all these artifacts. archaeology is the science of taking things out of the ground. It could be an arrowhead, a, seal made out of clay. sometimes it's something huge, like massive columns or walls, sometimes it's a stone inscription. But all of this with relevance to the Bible. If I can give one example, there's the great scene of course of Jesus trial and crucifixion. And one of the key figures in that is the high priest Caiaphas. Now Jesus was taken to Caiaphas home when he's first arrested. And Caiaphas is the one who stirs up the Sanhedrin or the priestly council. Then they take Jesus before Pilate. So we've heard that story, we know about that. But this guy Caiaphas is named in the Bible with only one name, Caiaphas. The historian Josephus Caiaphas gives us his first name, Joseph Caiaphas. And yet for 2000 years since Jesus, this guy has lived only in the Bible, nowhere else. Until a couple of decades ago. They're digging in the priestly quarter of Jerusalem where the aristocrats lived, and out of the ground come these stone ossuaries. An ossuary is just a box. And in the first century A.D. if you died, they would bury you in a tomb. But then when your body decayed, they would take your bones out of the tomb, put it in a box and put your name on it. So about 20 of these ossuaries were found. And the archaeologists were looking them over and they noticed that one of them was kind of especially decorated, and ornate. And they look at the name on it and it says Yehoshua Bar Qeiyafa. Yehoseph is Joseph, Bar is son of Caiapha, is Caiaphas. And they open the box and inside are the bones of a 60 year old man. They date it and they, it dates to the first century A.D. so it's Caiaphas. Think about this. We've been, we know about this dramatic scene of Jesus's trial and crucifixion. And now we don't just have verification in the form of some sort of document or inscription. You actually have the bones of the high priest. Think about that.
Jenna Ellis: Wow. And it's just. It's so incredible, all of these discoveries that confirm the truth of the biblical account. And, you know, when we look at the prophecy in scripture and things that we can't discover through archaeology, which is obviously, seeing relics and, and digging up things from the past, we have to, in, in a very real sense, take the prophecy of scripture that hasn't yet been fulfilled on faith. Now we can look at prophecy in scripture like the foretelling of Messiah and, and who his identity would be, and see, you know, all of the places, and there are, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of references in scripture that identified who exactly Jesus Christ would be, and only he fits and fit that bill. So we can, identify him as Messiah according just to prophecy, not even. And especially because of the fact of the proof and the historical evidence of the resurrection, which is the biggest piece of evidence, but we can see the prophecy that, has been fulfilled. And so as you, Dinesh, look at, you know, the, the prophecy throughout Scripture about the end of all things and the. What scholars, would say is. And call it eschatology or, you know, the study of the end times, how can Christians have confidence that, what the Bible says about that is true? And also what the Bible says about eternal life. I mean, this is something where we can't go and prove, with scientific evidence about, eternal life and about, you know, the afterlife and what happens after we die. But the Bible has a lot to say about that. And we can have confidence that what the Bible says on those subjects is true.
Dinesh D'Souza: Yes, I think that, the way to think about it is like this. Even if you have a skeptical bent of mind, one way you check out the accuracy of any account is you look to see if there are a bunch of signposts where you can verify, even if you can't verify the whole thing. Kind of like this. Jenna, your lawyer, if you were a juror, for example, in a murder trial, and the suspect says, okay, over the past, two months, this is what I did. And he gives you this elaborate account. And some of it is kind of far out and fanciful. But as it turns out, on many places you can check him out. He claims, well, I ate on this day on Chick Fil A. And then you can go look for the receipt, or I cross state lines and you can go look on the surveillance video and there he is. So the point is, if again and again and again and again what he says proves to be true, and in no case can you find anything where he's lying, then you're like, you know what? The overall account is probably right, because this guy is clearly a truthful person. And we're able to check it out not just in one or two, but in many, many instances.
Dinesh Dinesh: Replacement theory can skew biblical interpretation
And so this could be applied to the Bible. Now, with regard to prophecy, here's an interesting, fact that there are many clear prophecies in Isaiah, in Jeremiah and in Daniel, three of the major prophets of the Old Testament. And those prophecies clearly came through. So when skeptics encountered these books, they were like, listen, we don't believe in prophecy. There's no way that Daniel could have known in advance that the Babylonian empire is going to be overthrown by the Greeks. Even though he says it, he couldn't have known it. Therefore, we surmise that the Book of Daniel and they made the same point about Isaiah, and Jeremiah must have been written after the events came to pass. In other words, somebody went back and stuck the prophecy in, already knowing that the so called prophecy has been fulfilled. Right. So what they're saying is that the Bible was written later, after these events actually came to pass, because clearly no way there's anyone who could have foreseen these events in the, in the prophetic sense, except with an important archaeological discovery. And I'm talking in this case of the Dead Sea Scrolls. You have ancient copies of the Book of Isaiah, for example, going to about 300 years, before Jesus, and you can compare those with modern, copies of the Book of Isaiah, sometimes dating back a thousand years or so, but clearly way, way after Isaiah. So by comparing the new discovery of the ancient text, with the later so called Masoretic text, you can see, guess what? No. Nobody changed the Book of Isaiah. Nobody went back and rewrote Isaiah 53 to make it look like Jesus. That was in the original Isaiah. And we have a copy of that original document from 300 years before Jesus. And it says exactly what our Bible says. So to me, what that shows is that the prophecies of the Old Testament were in fact fulfilled precisely in the way the Bible says. And hold tradition of skeptical refutation has itself been refuted.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said, Dinesh. And we can even look at the current debate, among those on the right, about Israel and how there is, there's been this rise over, you know, the the last, I mean, even greater than, than a thousand years, probably about, when Israel was, scattered. And yet there the Bible foretold that regathering. And so then there was a misinterpretation of Scripture suggesting, well, the church must be replacing Israel then, because that's the only way that, you know, these prophecies about Israel could possibly take place. And that was a misunderstanding because obviously Israel has been regathered and in the 1940s, it's. It's been a nation, since then again. And so we have to be very careful in viewing prophecy that hasn't yet, come to pass and hasn't yet been fulfilled, interpreting it in a way that fits our paradigm and limited understanding of what God is going to do and how he moves throughout history. I mean, that's just one of many, many examples but of how, a misinterpretation based on limited knowledge can skew our view of theology and the replacement theory. And replacement theology has had much broader implications, throughout Christendom for the nation of Israel and God's attitude toward the nation of Israel. And now even what our attitude as Christians and as the United States of America should be in foreign policy. I mean, so all of these things, ah, come into play so much. And One.
There's not a single significant archaeological finding that contradicts The Bible
One of the last topics though that I want to ask you, before we have to conclude this segment is you mentioned, earlier about the moral implications as well. And so when we're talking about the physical evidence that shows and proves that Scripture is correct, what can we infer then, and what are the m. Moral implications of recognizing that the Bible is wholly true? And as Christians would say, it is sufficient and it is inerrant.
Dinesh D'Souza: Well, the inerrancy of Scripture in an historical sense, can be examined by just asking a simple question. Modern, archeology began around 1850. It's been going now for 175 years. It's unfurled thousands and thousands of artifacts in the region of the near east or the Middle east alone. So surely if the Bible was. Had embellished, exaggerated, made up, there would be a number of archaeological discoveries that would dispute the Bible. Like, yeah, the Bible says this, but in reality we found that. But in truth, while there are arguments about dates and there are sometimes disputes about location, like what was the road to Calvary? Did Jesus walk this way through Jerusalem, or did he walk that way? And there is an ongoing dispute about that, but there's not a single significant archaeological finding that contradicts The Bible. And I think the implications of that are huge, because there are many that support the Bible and there are zero that go against the Bible. I think the other point I want to stress is that the Bible really does show the presence of the Jews in their ancestral homeland. It makes that point indisputable. And so, you know, I'm not saying that if you live there first it automatically becomes your land, but it's quite clear that the disputes we're seeing in the Middle east are whose land is it? and the Bible has a lot to say about that. It's also worth noting that America and the west are founded on the twin pillars of Athens and Jerusalem. Now by Athens I just mean classical reason, philosophy, the origins of democracy. All of that came out of ancient Greece. And by Jerusalem of course, I mean the account of creation, the Exodus, the ten Commandments, the teachings of the prophets and the Psalms and the proverbs, all of that. And then of course Messiah, which is Jesus. And so, so it's very important to defend and uphold the foundations of Western civilization and of America. And biblical archaeology is a valuable tool to do that because it shows that the story of Jerusalem is in fact real. Real people, real places and real events. and again, it undermines a whole critical, kind of anti biblical scholarship that's now been going for almost 200 years basically saying that the Bible is at least from a kind of common sense or human point of view, unbelievable. And my point is unbelievable though it may seem, it turns out that all of this is true.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And you know what's really unbelievable and totally irrational is that we just you know, evolved from nothing and first there was nothing, then it exploded. I mean that you have to have more faith to believe that there wasn't a creator and somehow sentient, conscious moral beings, and humanity could have just evolved from goo and nothing. That takes so much more faith, to believe in something that illogical and irrational than it does to see the design, see the universe and understand that there is a Creator and that we can discover him and we can come to know who he is through the reality, which he has presented us to. And this also stresses Dinesh. Why Christians need to be engaged in physical sciences. We need to be engaged in things like archaeology and physics and, and creation sciences, not only theology. Every Christian, regardless of profession or other disciplines needs to understand the knowledge of God. But we can't end there. We should be be the, the chief driving, creators in those fields. And we need to be the leaders and not just abdicate those, who would say that they're the secular disciplines. So, Dinesh, the book is the Stones Cry Out Biblical Archaeology Prophecy in the Last Days. You can get it on Amazon today for pre order. I'd encourage you to do that. And, where can people follow you and your podcast as well, Dinesh?
Dinesh D'Souza: Jenna, I do a weekly show called Dinesh. It's on X and YouTube and rumble. It's also in audio. you can also follow my substack where I write articles every week. Dinesh D'. Souza. Um.substack.com and, and the book is the Stones. cry out. I will say if I can make one point in conclusion. It's just that. But, you know, I'm not asking you to go get a PhD in archaeology. I mean, what I've tried to do is bridge the gap between the academic archaeological world and you. So these discoveries are all presented in a very simple, chronological, easy to understand way. The book is thick with, like, maps, timelines, illustrations, photographs, and there are cubes, QR codes, where you can actually go and see videos of, the actual artifacts and sites, typically with me standing in the middle of them. and so it's an interactive experience where I'm not just asking you to take my word for it, I'm actually showing it to you. The best thing, obviously, is to go to Israel and visit all these places and see that, these things for yourself. But the next best thing is to discover them through the book.
Jenna Ellis: Amen. Yeah. Well said. And so the book again, is the Stones Cry Out, Go to Amazon right now. Pre order it. Dinesh, thank you so much, my friend, and for all of the work that you do to promote the truth of the gospel of Christ. we love you and we're always praying for you here at American Family Association. And, we'll talk to you soon. And we will be right back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the morning.
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Jenna Ellis: Christianity makes claims about reality itself
Dinesh D'Souza: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And we've been talking throughout this program about how the physical universe shows and displays and confirms that what the Bible is, says, is true as an historical account and what we can learn from, the physical universe around us about God himself and what he has revealed through Scripture. And so the, the significance of biblical archaeology isn't merely that Christians can point to an artifact and say, see, the Bible got that right. The larger implication is that Christianity makes claims about reality itself. And so when we are debating some of these public policy things, and some of these issues that, that deal in reality, such as can men become women or can you change your gender, can you identify however you want, or what is the moral, social good, all of these things have real world and reality implications. And the Bible describes a very real world, real people, nations, rulers, places, events, and Christianity. And the biblical worldview isn't just a private spirituality or a subjective set of values. This isn't just a book on religion. And this is why the debate, that's ongoing about Bibles in the classroom is so significant. Because those who would say, well, you know, we need to not have religion in the classroom, they view the Bible as just a text talking about one specific religious perspective, as if you would bring in another religious text that's only talking about, a certain God or sets of gods. this book is about the truth of reality. Yes, it is ultimately about knowing our creator and who he is. But it's not just about religion. It's about the reality and the truth of all things. And because we understand that truth, truth, then we understand anthropologically who we are as human beings made in the image of God and then who God himself is and what our relationship is and should be with our Creator. We understand, the state of humanity. We understand why the world is broken and is fallen. And so the Bible Gives us answers on all of those things. It doesn't explain literally every question that we have, because God has not revealed everything, but he has revealed more than enough for us to know who he is and what he requires of us. And that isn't just private spirituality. It's also what God requires of us in a civil society or a well ordered society. And so, the universe isn't accidental like the evolutionists or the secularists or the atheists would say, or morally meaningless. It has an author, design, purpose and order. So because God created reality, human beings don't get to reinvent fundamental categories or change reality according to our ideas and preferences. And this is really the clash that we see in civil society right now, where if we abdicate government issues and family issues and social issues to a secular humanist framework, meaning everybody is free to just, create their own reality and have their own perspectives as morally equivalent to everybody else's, then we end up with total chaos. But if the Bible is telling us the truth about reality, and it is, then biblical truth cannot be confined to Sunday morning or just the institution of the church. The truth about reality necessarily has consequences for how human beings order their own lives, what that means for the design of the family unit, and how human beings organize society. And that has huge implications. This is why we take time every morning, to talk about the headlines, to talk about, the, the civil government as an institution that God has ordained, but not just buy into the separation of church and state. We talk about those things from a biblical worldview perspective. Why? It's not just because that's my religion. It's not just because I am a Christian. It's because I understand that the truth about reality necessarily has moral consequences for how human beings organize society. We can organize it poorly, we cannot organize it at all. Or we can order and organize our society according to moral absolutes that God has given us. And creation itself establishes that objective moral order. And so Romans 1 is useful here, because creation reveals God's eternal power and his divine nature. And then Romans 2 speaks of the law that is written on the human heart. So we have special revelation, which is scripture and the Bible itself that tells us explicitly who God is and what he requires. And so natural law and general revelation that we're talking about with these archaeological discoveries, with the sciences, with, the understanding of the reality to which we're presented, that then makes God's created order, more certain and makes moral truths objectively knowable, even apart from saving faith. But it shows that the World to which we're presented recognizes and, affirms the truth of what special revelation teaches. And so the confirmation of our general revelation that everyone can discern and knows tells us why. The special revelation of how Scripture tells us explicitly who God is and what he requires, why that is true. And so this distinction is important because it gives us an answer to this question of are you trying to impose Christianity and religion through government? Well, no. The argument isn't that government should force people to become Christians. Government can't regenerate the human heart, it can't save people. But rather, civil government must recognize moral truths that exist independently of government. The state, and this is a really important point, the state doesn't create morality any more than it creates gravity. The government either recognizes the moral order that God established or it rebels against it. So the legislature, whether, you know, state, federal, whatever, the government, and, any type of government throughout world history, and there have been many various types of governments. But just taking our American government and our U.S. constitution as an example, as a representative form of government, a republic, we can no more legislate ourselves out of Earth's orbit, or legislate to repeal gravity, or legislate to impose changes on the sun rising and setting than we can against the moral order that God has imposed upon us. This is part of being a legitimate civil government. And this is why we have to realize and recognize that Scripture is far more broad than just being an individual religious text that tells us personally about our relationship with God. Because notice how all of the secularists, when we try to bring these policy arguments like pro life arguments, or, you know, the gender, wars and the transgender nonsense, or gay marriage, or, you know, any of these things, they try to say, well, that's your private belief. They're trying to suggest that the Bible only deals with the individual, and it's only the individual's personal, private religious beliefs that the Bible speaks to. But that's not true. Because if there is a moral order, and there is, it doesn't just relate to the individual. It relates to how we relate to one another. And about a well ordered society, a well ordered universe. If we look at, and scientists do, if we look at the universe, we look at, creation, the plants, the animals, you know, everything around us, how, the universe is contained and our greater span of, you know, outer space, all of these things. And we have these laws of physics that we expect to be ordered, and we have these expectations based on these discoveries. Moral order and moral law works in the very same way, we cannot legislate against it or. And we cannot rebel against it without consequences. Just like you can't go against the law of gravity without consequences. Right? And so we have to understand that when we are arguing for public policy and we're arguing for an established, clear moral order, this isn't just about advocating for own, personal, private beliefs into the greater sphere and pushing my beliefs on you. This is about recognizing and advancing the truth of reality and saying there is an objective moral order outside my individual self. Outside your individual self. And the Bible compels and demands us to have a moral and upright society and acknowledge the truth that there is one God, Creator, and that he has established in his divine law the way in which we ought to live and the measurable difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and has established there are men, there are women. They established that marriage is just between one man and one woman. All of these things. We have to continue to advocate for all of these things in civil society. Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com afr.
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Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
Jenna Ellis: Good morning, M and welcome. Welcome to Jenna Ellis in the Morning. And you know, it's amazing when you step back and you look at the physical universe that God has presented us to in the reality that we are escapably present in how much science and archeology and the study of what we can observe always showcases that God's word is true. There has been no discovery in science or archaeology or geology or any of the physical disciplines that have contradicted, contradicted factually the account of scripture from a young earth creation which which the physical universe proves, to the testimony and the account of a literal physical Jesus Christ who is alive and is an historical figure that literally, ah, walked the streets of Jerusalem. And it was amazing, in my first trip to Israel and this was back in 2014, to actually go see where Jesus walked, to see the Garden of Gethsemane, to see where historians believe was the site of the crucifixion. And as our tour guide said, it's not necessarily that it happened at this specific spot, but it is that it happened. And so much though of the archaeology and the truth we can say in this actual literal physical spot is where the accounts and the testimony of Scripture actually took place. Because the Bible is an historical document, among other things. And it's just really incredible. And I remember our tour guide, as we were first going up to Jerusalem and because there are all sides, you would literally go up to Jerusalem as the Bible says. He said for those of you that it's your first trip here, you've read The Bible in black and white after this trip. Now you'll read in color. And I just thought what an amazing perspective, that is. And I was listening as well to a recent guest speaker at my parents church, who is talking about the biblical account of creation and what the earth and also the universe shows about the truth of God and how God is an ordered God. And so we expect to see orders in our physical universe and we expect then as well to see order in our society in a legitimate, ah, government system. We expect justice, we expect truth, we expect fairness. We expect order because that is God's design and it's part of us as human beings made in his image. It's part of the dignity of human life and it's part of nature around us. And so my good friend Dinesh d' Souza has a brand new book, you, you all need to go and order it, pre order on Amazon. And it's called the Stones Cry Out. And it's it's more personal I think then where Dinesh has gone before. And I always love reading him books, seeing his films. And this one is about biblical archeology, prophecy and the last day. So it's the Stones Cry out, go on Amazon, right now and pre order. But Dinesh, you know, take us through why you chose to focus on this and, and your trip to Israel.
Not only large events in the Bible are now being archaeologically corroborated
Dinesh D'Souza: Well, my wife Debbie and I went to Israel the end of 2022 for the first time. And right away we were struck, particularly in Jerusalem, by the fact that you're in the land of the Bible now. We live at a time when a lot of the cities of the world have become very homogenized. They look a lot like each other, but Israel is not like that. You have this feeling, that sort of the biblical landscape that we're familiar from the time that we were children, there it is. these are the places, these are where these great events took place. And then I was exposed to the artifacts of biblical archaeology. Now I just got a kind of appetizer or taste of it. But I was kind of blown away by the fact that not only large events, but minor details in the Bible are now being archaeologically corroborated. And so as we were coming back to America, said, to my wife, I'm like, you know, I don't understand why this information is not shouted from the rooftops of like every synagogue and every church. And as we thought about it, we realized that there are two reasons why that doesn't happen. One, the pastors are typically not trained in archeology, so they're a little bit reluctant to dive into a field which is alien to them. and second, the archaeological community is mostly secular. Those guys wanted think of themselves as being like, we're scientists, you know, we, we don't confirm the Bible. The Bible is all about theology and revelation. So we don't want to be seen as in the Bible business. And so for these reasons, you essentially have a gap, which is that these discoveries are coming faster and faster. the discipline itself is about 150 years old, but the most important discoveries are in the last 25 years. And so it's like God is speaking back through the stones, but there's sort of nobody or few people who are actually hearing the message. So this is really what inspired a three year study of the topic. I'm very excited about this new book. And you know, the, the title the Stones Cry out comes from the scene where Jesus is coming into Jerusalem with the disciples. And the disciples are yelling and screaming and shouting and the, the Pharisees are really mad and they say to Jesus like, shut them up, quiet them down. And Jesus goes, well, even if I did that, the stones will cry out. And so I love the urgency of it and the, that God is now speaking to us not just through the great thunderous language of revelation that you find in the Bible, but also quietly through the message of the stones, through the earth itself, and through science and archeology.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I love what you said about how Christians should be focused on this because, you know, the Bible is about theology or the knowledge of God and who he is and how Christians can ultimately any individuals can come into a saving world, knowledge of Christ and repent and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. that is the ultimate purpose of human beings is to know and worship and love the Lord. and yet the Bible also is more than just this book on wisdom or, just a way, to, to come into the knowledge of the Lord. that's what a lot of, a lot of seculars kind of relegated to is just a book on religion. As if this is one pathway. And you can also read a book on Buddhism or you can read, you know, the wisdom of Aesop's fables. And they, they tend to categorize the Bible as just a book on religion when it's also a lot more. I mean it gives an account from literally in the beginning God, from the moment of creation all the way until the end of all things. And, when this heaven and earth will pass away and, when the restoration of all things will occur. And so God is the divine author, given us so much history and knowledge as well in the Bible. And so what, what role do you believe that archaeology and physical science should play in the church and in the greater understanding of how we can come to know God even better and more thoroughly through his creation? And the evidence that we have that shows that that theology and that wisdom in the Bible is true.
Dinesh D'Souza: You know, it's a remarkable thing about Judaism and Christianity that God chose to reveal himself in a very particular and, some might even say eccentric way. What I mean is God could have chosen to reveal himself in a kind of universal way, right? God could have said, all right, I'm going to stamp my name on the moon, I'm going to put the ten Commandments in the sky. And that way people all over the world can see it at the same time. But, but interestingly, God didn't do that. God chooses a particular people in a particular place at a particular time. And the Bible is a very specific unfolding through history. First of all, the Bible takes place between, excluding the account of creation and Noah. It starts kind of the historical part of it really begins decisively with Abraham. That's about 2000 BC and the Bible concludes with the Book of Acts, the early Christian movement. This is around. So the Bible's covering the sweep of 20, 50 years. Also, the Bible is specific with regard to place most of Jesus's ministry. Well, all of Jesus's ministry is in Israel, mainly to the Jews, with a sprinkling of Gentiles. and so the Old Testament takes place, in. Well, the Old Testament involves empires like Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, and of course, Israel. And then the NewSong Testament pushes into Rome, into Greece, into territories that we would now call Turkey. And so this is the actual physical landscape and timescale of the Bible. Right. And, what archeology does is it. It basically says, all right, let's go find those places. Let's see what we can discover about these events. And the beauty of it is that there are now truly dozens, maybe even hundreds of archeological discoveries corroborating this and that and doing it through the entire sweep of the Bible. So my book follows the kind of chronology I begin with the patriarchs. What can we. You know, you wouldn't expect to know anything about a guy like Abraham. He lived in a tent, he had herds of cattle. He never, the only property he ever bought was his own kind of, was a cave for him, and his family to be buried. so how are we going to find Abra? Where can we find his footprints? It would seem impossible, but it's not impossible.
Dinesh: Biblical archeology is a great resource for pastors
And so the excitement for me here is just. It's almost like I've made a parallel Bible in my head here, where I can drop in the dates and drop in all the artifacts. and it's a great resource also for pastors, because think of how many sermons you and I have heard. A sermon on Jeremiah, a sermon on Isaiah, a, sermon on King David, without having any sense of, like, well, what century are we talking about? Well, where exactly did Jeremiah live? and what exactly was going on at the time? So we shouldn't look at the Bible just as a series of morality tales or parables. It does contain those, but it's an historical account, and an archeology is now giving it astounding support.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said. And I remember listening to a sermon by Vadi, Bakam, who was saying that, you know, the Bible is, an account of history, and we need to understand the parallel world history that was going on at the time to understand what the accounts in Scripture contain. And that, these. These accounts, they're not Bible stories in the sense that they're not, you know, fairy tales. They're real accounts. they're not just placed in the Bible as case studies. And often church pastors end up, doing that because the. Because unfortunately, the greater swath of, especially, you know, the modern evangelical Christian doesn't necessarily understand the parallel world history. And pastors, I think, have failed to teach that. We often decontextualize and just, end up allegorizing and saying, okay, like, for example, how many sermons Dinesh have you heard on, well, you know, David slew Goliath. So what are the five stones in your life that can slay the big giant in your life? And it's like that. That's not what. That that account is put into Scripture for. And so when we look at the parallel world history and the truth of what these archaeological discoveries and what the physical world around us show about the truth of this history. part of this is, is that when we see that there are no physical contradictions that have ever been discovered, nor ever will, obviously, but none that have ever contradicted Scripture, we can then trust that what the Bible says on other things that we are called to take by faith, then, are true. And that's the logical Inference.
Dinesh D'Souza: Absolutely. Very well, very well said. I want to add two brief points. One is that this kind of archaeological investigation cannot be done and has not been done for any other religious book. you can't archaeologically go verify, like the Quran or the Buddhist scriptures or the Hindu scriptures. So think about it. The Bible is the only text that is capable of withstanding the most skeptical, withering, scientific, investigation. and that's what, keeping in mind the second is that there are passages in the Bible that seem on first glance to be preposterous. Right? David, this little guy Slews, you know, is able to somehow defeat Goliath. Samson can pull down the temple. There's a very, interesting scene when the Israelites are crossing into the promised land. They're going across the land of Moab, the Moabites, modern day Jordan. and the king of Moab, who doesn't like the Israelites, rounds up this fortune teller. His name is Balaam, son of Beor. And he says, curse the Israelites, I want them to have trouble and plagues and so on as they're crossing our land. so they don't make it to the promised land. And this Balaam guy is like, yeah, I'm up for it. But, but the Bible says that God intervened and prevented him from cursing the Israelites. Now this Balaam character is, you know, he's an odd fellow. He apparently has a donkey and according to the Bible, he talks to his donkey. So you can just imagine skeptics like, having a field day, right? You have all these scholars sitting in places like Oxford or Gottingen and they're like, sitting in my armchair. You know, this seems ridiculous to me. That clearly wasn't, this is all a made up account. and the typical Christian response is, well, you know, just take it as a sort of morality tale. so the Christians don't defend this because they don't know how to. The remarkable thing is that in Jordan recently, in recent decades, archaeologists are digging in an obscure part of Jordan and they find an old plaster inscription. And it says the following, the warnings and sayings of Balaam, son of Beor.
Jenna Ellis: Whoa.
Dinesh D'Souza: So think about it. First of all, it's the same first name Balaam, same dad Beor, same place, Jordan, which is where Joshua and the Israelites crossed over. And same profession. Because the warnings and sayings implies that this guy was some sort of a soothsayer or fortune teller. So suddenly this minor figure in the Bible, this cameo appearance guy, jumps out of the Bible and into the pages of History via the pathway of archeology. And my book is just thick with example upon example. Not just dealing, as I mentioned, with the big events, but tiny episodes like this where sometimes the archaeologists will find something, a seal, a clay seal in Jerusalem. And you look at it, has a name and they're like, I don't even know who this is. But then two years later someone goes, let's look it up in the Bible and there's the guy in the book of Jeremiah. So this happens again and again. And so think of how exhilarating it is for as a believer to see this and how confounding it is to an atheist who has been sitting in his armchair and saying this stuff is all made up. And meanwhile the archaeologists digging out of the ground are like, actually, no.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and what a great point that the Bible is the only, document that can be simultaneously proven accurate and there's no other religious text that has that same, that, that same ability, to be corroborated with physical evidence. I mean all of these things just simply point to the fact that the Bible is true and scripture repeatedly grounds itself and the theological claims in real people, real places and real events. And so, ah, Dinesh's book is the stones cry out Biblical archaeology, Prophecy and the Last days. Go to Amazon right now. Pre order it. it's going to be amazing. I can't wait to read it. He's going to stick with us through this break and we will be right, back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
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Dinesh D'Souza: welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Dinesh d' Souza writes about Biblical archaeology and prophecy
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm here with my special guest this morning, Dinesh d' Souza on his brand new book the Stones Cry out to Biblical archaeology, Prophecy and the Last Days. Pre order it today on Amazon. this is going to be a great resource for you and for your church. And as we've been discussing, you know, these types of confirmations of the accuracy and the historicity of scripture really need to be taught in churches, for homeschool parents. I mean you be teaching this, in your schoolroom setting and for any parents, you know, regardless of where you send your kids to school. they need to understand world history, and they need to understand, how the biblical history and the. This account fits in to all of that. And just before the break, Dinesh, you were talking about how, you know, there were so many things in scripture that, that prior to some archaeological discoveries, the secularists were saying, well, that's not true. Nobody's ever heard of, you know, this pharaoh or that king or this part of history. And then later, when there are archaeological discoveries, wow, look at that. It's the exact same person that the Bible was already referencing, you know, thousands of years ago. And so with this, as well as some of the scientific discoveries, like Paul talking about in the NewSong Testament, you know, the things that are seen are made up of things that are unseen. You know, talking about, the atom that hadn't been discovered yet and how. And, DNA and how, you know, we are made up even as human beings, as seen of the unseen. And people before those discoveries thought, well, that's ridiculous. What does that even mean? And so I think we can have two, at least two, but two really big implications from this. one is that some of the things that maybe we don't yet understand in Scripture, we simply haven't made the scientific discovery that corroborates that and supports that. But we can take the Bible at its word because it's always been proven true with our continued growth and knowledge of understanding of the universe. And also, I think we can extend that as well as we've talked about, to the truth and the accuracy of the gospel, but also the truth and the accuracy of prophecy and the last days, which is also part of your book. So how do you think that Christians should think about this in the biblical context?
Dinesh D'Souza: Well, I think that the, power of this archaeology, also raises the question of, like, why are we finding about this now? Right? Think of it. King David's palace has sat under the ground in Jerusalem for 3,000 years. It's very interesting that it's in our own time, in fact, in our own century, this century, that it was excavated. and that tells me that God is sort of sending us a message, speaking almost a different language. the Bible normally is written in a kind of language of declaration, not proof. Right in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. It's an amazing statement. It's sort of fascinating because if you think about it like, who's talking? Right? Not God. It's not, in the beginning, I created the heavens and the earth. There's evidently an observer who is recording this, but no one was there. So the Bible is sort of thick with this kind of mystery, and it speaks in the language of Revelation. Now what's interesting is that in modern times, in a secular age, a lot of skeptics were like, well, this couldn't be, that can't be, and so on. But over the last 150 years, archaeology has first gradually and then more speedily, and now most speedy of all, unfurling all these artifacts. archaeology is the science of taking things out of the ground. It could be an arrowhead, a, seal made out of clay. sometimes it's something huge, like massive columns or walls, sometimes it's a stone inscription. But all of this with relevance to the Bible. If I can give one example, there's the great scene of course of Jesus trial and crucifixion. And one of the key figures in that is the high priest Caiaphas. Now Jesus was taken to Caiaphas home when he's first arrested. And Caiaphas is the one who stirs up the Sanhedrin or the priestly council. Then they take Jesus before Pilate. So we've heard that story, we know about that. But this guy Caiaphas is named in the Bible with only one name, Caiaphas. The historian Josephus Caiaphas gives us his first name, Joseph Caiaphas. And yet for 2000 years since Jesus, this guy has lived only in the Bible, nowhere else. Until a couple of decades ago. They're digging in the priestly quarter of Jerusalem where the aristocrats lived, and out of the ground come these stone ossuaries. An ossuary is just a box. And in the first century A.D. if you died, they would bury you in a tomb. But then when your body decayed, they would take your bones out of the tomb, put it in a box and put your name on it. So about 20 of these ossuaries were found. And the archaeologists were looking them over and they noticed that one of them was kind of especially decorated, and ornate. And they look at the name on it and it says Yehoshua Bar Qeiyafa. Yehoseph is Joseph, Bar is son of Caiapha, is Caiaphas. And they open the box and inside are the bones of a 60 year old man. They date it and they, it dates to the first century A.D. so it's Caiaphas. Think about this. We've been, we know about this dramatic scene of Jesus's trial and crucifixion. And now we don't just have verification in the form of some sort of document or inscription. You actually have the bones of the high priest. Think about that.
Jenna Ellis: Wow. And it's just. It's so incredible, all of these discoveries that confirm the truth of the biblical account. And, you know, when we look at the prophecy in scripture and things that we can't discover through archaeology, which is obviously, seeing relics and, and digging up things from the past, we have to, in, in a very real sense, take the prophecy of scripture that hasn't yet been fulfilled on faith. Now we can look at prophecy in scripture like the foretelling of Messiah and, and who his identity would be, and see, you know, all of the places, and there are, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of references in scripture that identified who exactly Jesus Christ would be, and only he fits and fit that bill. So we can, identify him as Messiah according just to prophecy, not even. And especially because of the fact of the proof and the historical evidence of the resurrection, which is the biggest piece of evidence, but we can see the prophecy that, has been fulfilled. And so as you, Dinesh, look at, you know, the, the prophecy throughout Scripture about the end of all things and the. What scholars, would say is. And call it eschatology or, you know, the study of the end times, how can Christians have confidence that, what the Bible says about that is true? And also what the Bible says about eternal life. I mean, this is something where we can't go and prove, with scientific evidence about, eternal life and about, you know, the afterlife and what happens after we die. But the Bible has a lot to say about that. And we can have confidence that what the Bible says on those subjects is true.
Dinesh D'Souza: Yes, I think that, the way to think about it is like this. Even if you have a skeptical bent of mind, one way you check out the accuracy of any account is you look to see if there are a bunch of signposts where you can verify, even if you can't verify the whole thing. Kind of like this. Jenna, your lawyer, if you were a juror, for example, in a murder trial, and the suspect says, okay, over the past, two months, this is what I did. And he gives you this elaborate account. And some of it is kind of far out and fanciful. But as it turns out, on many places you can check him out. He claims, well, I ate on this day on Chick Fil A. And then you can go look for the receipt, or I cross state lines and you can go look on the surveillance video and there he is. So the point is, if again and again and again and again what he says proves to be true, and in no case can you find anything where he's lying, then you're like, you know what? The overall account is probably right, because this guy is clearly a truthful person. And we're able to check it out not just in one or two, but in many, many instances.
Dinesh Dinesh: Replacement theory can skew biblical interpretation
And so this could be applied to the Bible. Now, with regard to prophecy, here's an interesting, fact that there are many clear prophecies in Isaiah, in Jeremiah and in Daniel, three of the major prophets of the Old Testament. And those prophecies clearly came through. So when skeptics encountered these books, they were like, listen, we don't believe in prophecy. There's no way that Daniel could have known in advance that the Babylonian empire is going to be overthrown by the Greeks. Even though he says it, he couldn't have known it. Therefore, we surmise that the Book of Daniel and they made the same point about Isaiah, and Jeremiah must have been written after the events came to pass. In other words, somebody went back and stuck the prophecy in, already knowing that the so called prophecy has been fulfilled. Right. So what they're saying is that the Bible was written later, after these events actually came to pass, because clearly no way there's anyone who could have foreseen these events in the, in the prophetic sense, except with an important archaeological discovery. And I'm talking in this case of the Dead Sea Scrolls. You have ancient copies of the Book of Isaiah, for example, going to about 300 years, before Jesus, and you can compare those with modern, copies of the Book of Isaiah, sometimes dating back a thousand years or so, but clearly way, way after Isaiah. So by comparing the new discovery of the ancient text, with the later so called Masoretic text, you can see, guess what? No. Nobody changed the Book of Isaiah. Nobody went back and rewrote Isaiah 53 to make it look like Jesus. That was in the original Isaiah. And we have a copy of that original document from 300 years before Jesus. And it says exactly what our Bible says. So to me, what that shows is that the prophecies of the Old Testament were in fact fulfilled precisely in the way the Bible says. And hold tradition of skeptical refutation has itself been refuted.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said, Dinesh. And we can even look at the current debate, among those on the right, about Israel and how there is, there's been this rise over, you know, the the last, I mean, even greater than, than a thousand years, probably about, when Israel was, scattered. And yet there the Bible foretold that regathering. And so then there was a misinterpretation of Scripture suggesting, well, the church must be replacing Israel then, because that's the only way that, you know, these prophecies about Israel could possibly take place. And that was a misunderstanding because obviously Israel has been regathered and in the 1940s, it's. It's been a nation, since then again. And so we have to be very careful in viewing prophecy that hasn't yet, come to pass and hasn't yet been fulfilled, interpreting it in a way that fits our paradigm and limited understanding of what God is going to do and how he moves throughout history. I mean, that's just one of many, many examples but of how, a misinterpretation based on limited knowledge can skew our view of theology and the replacement theory. And replacement theology has had much broader implications, throughout Christendom for the nation of Israel and God's attitude toward the nation of Israel. And now even what our attitude as Christians and as the United States of America should be in foreign policy. I mean, so all of these things, ah, come into play so much. And One.
There's not a single significant archaeological finding that contradicts The Bible
One of the last topics though that I want to ask you, before we have to conclude this segment is you mentioned, earlier about the moral implications as well. And so when we're talking about the physical evidence that shows and proves that Scripture is correct, what can we infer then, and what are the m. Moral implications of recognizing that the Bible is wholly true? And as Christians would say, it is sufficient and it is inerrant.
Dinesh D'Souza: Well, the inerrancy of Scripture in an historical sense, can be examined by just asking a simple question. Modern, archeology began around 1850. It's been going now for 175 years. It's unfurled thousands and thousands of artifacts in the region of the near east or the Middle east alone. So surely if the Bible was. Had embellished, exaggerated, made up, there would be a number of archaeological discoveries that would dispute the Bible. Like, yeah, the Bible says this, but in reality we found that. But in truth, while there are arguments about dates and there are sometimes disputes about location, like what was the road to Calvary? Did Jesus walk this way through Jerusalem, or did he walk that way? And there is an ongoing dispute about that, but there's not a single significant archaeological finding that contradicts The Bible. And I think the implications of that are huge, because there are many that support the Bible and there are zero that go against the Bible. I think the other point I want to stress is that the Bible really does show the presence of the Jews in their ancestral homeland. It makes that point indisputable. And so, you know, I'm not saying that if you live there first it automatically becomes your land, but it's quite clear that the disputes we're seeing in the Middle east are whose land is it? and the Bible has a lot to say about that. It's also worth noting that America and the west are founded on the twin pillars of Athens and Jerusalem. Now by Athens I just mean classical reason, philosophy, the origins of democracy. All of that came out of ancient Greece. And by Jerusalem of course, I mean the account of creation, the Exodus, the ten Commandments, the teachings of the prophets and the Psalms and the proverbs, all of that. And then of course Messiah, which is Jesus. And so, so it's very important to defend and uphold the foundations of Western civilization and of America. And biblical archaeology is a valuable tool to do that because it shows that the story of Jerusalem is in fact real. Real people, real places and real events. and again, it undermines a whole critical, kind of anti biblical scholarship that's now been going for almost 200 years basically saying that the Bible is at least from a kind of common sense or human point of view, unbelievable. And my point is unbelievable though it may seem, it turns out that all of this is true.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And you know what's really unbelievable and totally irrational is that we just you know, evolved from nothing and first there was nothing, then it exploded. I mean that you have to have more faith to believe that there wasn't a creator and somehow sentient, conscious moral beings, and humanity could have just evolved from goo and nothing. That takes so much more faith, to believe in something that illogical and irrational than it does to see the design, see the universe and understand that there is a Creator and that we can discover him and we can come to know who he is through the reality, which he has presented us to. And this also stresses Dinesh. Why Christians need to be engaged in physical sciences. We need to be engaged in things like archaeology and physics and, and creation sciences, not only theology. Every Christian, regardless of profession or other disciplines needs to understand the knowledge of God. But we can't end there. We should be be the, the chief driving, creators in those fields. And we need to be the leaders and not just abdicate those, who would say that they're the secular disciplines. So, Dinesh, the book is the Stones Cry Out Biblical Archaeology Prophecy in the Last Days. You can get it on Amazon today for pre order. I'd encourage you to do that. And, where can people follow you and your podcast as well, Dinesh?
Dinesh D'Souza: Jenna, I do a weekly show called Dinesh. It's on X and YouTube and rumble. It's also in audio. you can also follow my substack where I write articles every week. Dinesh D'. Souza. Um.substack.com and, and the book is the Stones. cry out. I will say if I can make one point in conclusion. It's just that. But, you know, I'm not asking you to go get a PhD in archaeology. I mean, what I've tried to do is bridge the gap between the academic archaeological world and you. So these discoveries are all presented in a very simple, chronological, easy to understand way. The book is thick with, like, maps, timelines, illustrations, photographs, and there are cubes, QR codes, where you can actually go and see videos of, the actual artifacts and sites, typically with me standing in the middle of them. and so it's an interactive experience where I'm not just asking you to take my word for it, I'm actually showing it to you. The best thing, obviously, is to go to Israel and visit all these places and see that, these things for yourself. But the next best thing is to discover them through the book.
Jenna Ellis: Amen. Yeah. Well said. And so the book again, is the Stones Cry Out, Go to Amazon right now. Pre order it. Dinesh, thank you so much, my friend, and for all of the work that you do to promote the truth of the gospel of Christ. we love you and we're always praying for you here at American Family Association. And, we'll talk to you soon. And we will be right back with more here on Jenna Ellis in the morning.
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Jenna Ellis: Christianity makes claims about reality itself
Dinesh D'Souza: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And we've been talking throughout this program about how the physical universe shows and displays and confirms that what the Bible is, says, is true as an historical account and what we can learn from, the physical universe around us about God himself and what he has revealed through Scripture. And so the, the significance of biblical archaeology isn't merely that Christians can point to an artifact and say, see, the Bible got that right. The larger implication is that Christianity makes claims about reality itself. And so when we are debating some of these public policy things, and some of these issues that, that deal in reality, such as can men become women or can you change your gender, can you identify however you want, or what is the moral, social good, all of these things have real world and reality implications. And the Bible describes a very real world, real people, nations, rulers, places, events, and Christianity. And the biblical worldview isn't just a private spirituality or a subjective set of values. This isn't just a book on religion. And this is why the debate, that's ongoing about Bibles in the classroom is so significant. Because those who would say, well, you know, we need to not have religion in the classroom, they view the Bible as just a text talking about one specific religious perspective, as if you would bring in another religious text that's only talking about, a certain God or sets of gods. this book is about the truth of reality. Yes, it is ultimately about knowing our creator and who he is. But it's not just about religion. It's about the reality and the truth of all things. And because we understand that truth, truth, then we understand anthropologically who we are as human beings made in the image of God and then who God himself is and what our relationship is and should be with our Creator. We understand, the state of humanity. We understand why the world is broken and is fallen. And so the Bible Gives us answers on all of those things. It doesn't explain literally every question that we have, because God has not revealed everything, but he has revealed more than enough for us to know who he is and what he requires of us. And that isn't just private spirituality. It's also what God requires of us in a civil society or a well ordered society. And so, the universe isn't accidental like the evolutionists or the secularists or the atheists would say, or morally meaningless. It has an author, design, purpose and order. So because God created reality, human beings don't get to reinvent fundamental categories or change reality according to our ideas and preferences. And this is really the clash that we see in civil society right now, where if we abdicate government issues and family issues and social issues to a secular humanist framework, meaning everybody is free to just, create their own reality and have their own perspectives as morally equivalent to everybody else's, then we end up with total chaos. But if the Bible is telling us the truth about reality, and it is, then biblical truth cannot be confined to Sunday morning or just the institution of the church. The truth about reality necessarily has consequences for how human beings order their own lives, what that means for the design of the family unit, and how human beings organize society. And that has huge implications. This is why we take time every morning, to talk about the headlines, to talk about, the, the civil government as an institution that God has ordained, but not just buy into the separation of church and state. We talk about those things from a biblical worldview perspective. Why? It's not just because that's my religion. It's not just because I am a Christian. It's because I understand that the truth about reality necessarily has moral consequences for how human beings organize society. We can organize it poorly, we cannot organize it at all. Or we can order and organize our society according to moral absolutes that God has given us. And creation itself establishes that objective moral order. And so Romans 1 is useful here, because creation reveals God's eternal power and his divine nature. And then Romans 2 speaks of the law that is written on the human heart. So we have special revelation, which is scripture and the Bible itself that tells us explicitly who God is and what he requires. And so natural law and general revelation that we're talking about with these archaeological discoveries, with the sciences, with, the understanding of the reality to which we're presented, that then makes God's created order, more certain and makes moral truths objectively knowable, even apart from saving faith. But it shows that the World to which we're presented recognizes and, affirms the truth of what special revelation teaches. And so the confirmation of our general revelation that everyone can discern and knows tells us why. The special revelation of how Scripture tells us explicitly who God is and what he requires, why that is true. And so this distinction is important because it gives us an answer to this question of are you trying to impose Christianity and religion through government? Well, no. The argument isn't that government should force people to become Christians. Government can't regenerate the human heart, it can't save people. But rather, civil government must recognize moral truths that exist independently of government. The state, and this is a really important point, the state doesn't create morality any more than it creates gravity. The government either recognizes the moral order that God established or it rebels against it. So the legislature, whether, you know, state, federal, whatever, the government, and, any type of government throughout world history, and there have been many various types of governments. But just taking our American government and our U.S. constitution as an example, as a representative form of government, a republic, we can no more legislate ourselves out of Earth's orbit, or legislate to repeal gravity, or legislate to impose changes on the sun rising and setting than we can against the moral order that God has imposed upon us. This is part of being a legitimate civil government. And this is why we have to realize and recognize that Scripture is far more broad than just being an individual religious text that tells us personally about our relationship with God. Because notice how all of the secularists, when we try to bring these policy arguments like pro life arguments, or, you know, the gender, wars and the transgender nonsense, or gay marriage, or, you know, any of these things, they try to say, well, that's your private belief. They're trying to suggest that the Bible only deals with the individual, and it's only the individual's personal, private religious beliefs that the Bible speaks to. But that's not true. Because if there is a moral order, and there is, it doesn't just relate to the individual. It relates to how we relate to one another. And about a well ordered society, a well ordered universe. If we look at, and scientists do, if we look at the universe, we look at, creation, the plants, the animals, you know, everything around us, how, the universe is contained and our greater span of, you know, outer space, all of these things. And we have these laws of physics that we expect to be ordered, and we have these expectations based on these discoveries. Moral order and moral law works in the very same way, we cannot legislate against it or. And we cannot rebel against it without consequences. Just like you can't go against the law of gravity without consequences. Right? And so we have to understand that when we are arguing for public policy and we're arguing for an established, clear moral order, this isn't just about advocating for own, personal, private beliefs into the greater sphere and pushing my beliefs on you. This is about recognizing and advancing the truth of reality and saying there is an objective moral order outside my individual self. Outside your individual self. And the Bible compels and demands us to have a moral and upright society and acknowledge the truth that there is one God, Creator, and that he has established in his divine law the way in which we ought to live and the measurable difference between right and wrong, good and evil, and has established there are men, there are women. They established that marriage is just between one man and one woman. All of these things. We have to continue to advocate for all of these things in civil society. Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com afr.
Jenna Ellis welcomes Dinesh D'Souza to discuss his new book, "The Stones Cry Out: Biblical Archaeology, Prophecy, and the Last Days." Together, they explore the intersection of faith and archaeology, revealing how recent discoveries corroborate biblical accounts and affirm the truth of scripture. D'Souza shares insights from his journey to Israel and highlights the significance of understanding biblical history in the context of modern society. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the profound connections between faith, history, and the physical universe!
(00:00) Preborn needs your help to donate one ultrasound for $28
(04:26) Not only large events in the Bible are now being archaeologically corroborated
(11:31) Dinesh: Biblical archeology is a great resource for pastors
(18:17) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(18:49) Dinesh d' Souza writes about Biblical archaeology and prophecy
(28:13) Dinesh Dinesh: Replacement theory can skew biblical interpretation
(32:00) There's not a single significant archaeological finding that contradicts The Bible
(38:41) Vulnerable women choose life after seeing their baby on an ultrasound at a Preborn Network
(39:58) Jenna Ellis: Christianity makes claims about reality itself
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