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Jenna Ellis I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and ah, protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.
Jenna Ellis Good morning. Well, it is Friday, Friday, October 23rd. And this means we are a little over a week out from the midterm. So a week from Tuesday on November 3rd. And so much focus and speculation and polling and everything else has been, focused on this particular election. And you know, with good reason. And I think that it's not a too great of a leap or too far of a leap to suggest that each election really is the next most important election of our lifetimes. Why we here in America get to select and prefer our leaders. And when you have the two completely different views of reality that the conservatives versus, the leftists are basically the truth versus anything else that is not truth present, those are two very dramatically different views of what the future of America looks like. And we've been talking this week about the post election agenda of the gop, the inevitable bloodbath that will be MAGA Inc. Versus the, establishment GOP for control Socialists, versus, you know, whatever the Democrat Party thinks that it might be, instead of embracing socialism. But really we also need to kind of take a top level picture or a 30,000 foot perspective like we often do on Fridays to talk about the overall future of America and the American dream about, really, are we still committed to leaving our children a better future? And that was the question that Troy Miller, who is the president of the National Religious Broadcasters association posed. And I think it's a really good one. And so, Troy, good morning. And you know, I really appreciate this question because it gets out of this kind of tribalistic mentality of, well, you know, you better vote Republican, you know, just because. Or, or people who are saying, well, you know, I want to teach Republicans a lesson, so I'm going to sit this one out, or just hyper focused on the parties and the personalities and the politics and actually get to what are we doing in the business of governing as an institution that God ordained for our good, to promote good, restrain evil? what actually are we doing here?
Troy Miller Yeah, right. Jennifer, thanks for having me today. And I, I really do believe that you nailed it there. That's kind of a core question for us is, you know, what is our role as citizens? And then specifically, of course, as Christian citizen citizens, you know, when it comes to the governance, of our country. And I think if we go back and look at some of the statements of our founding fathers and even go back a little farther and look at the whole concept of why the Pilgrims, why, people migrated over from Europe to this wilderness. It was initially always about this idea of really freedom and providing a place where freedom of conscience, freedom, to do and live out what I believed, our beliefs and what our children would be like. You know, you think about the Pilgrims. They left the comfort of Europe, came over to this wilderness, sacrificed everything, knowing they probably were not going to see the fruits of their labors, but their children, were going to see this. And that just moved all through the American spirits, what we call the American dream. And it really also helps us to step back and think about the governance of this country, not from a political standpoint, but from a standpoint of principles.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, 100%. And, you know, and this is where conservatives have largely focused on principles rather than party personality, you know, or anything else is saying, okay, what are the principles that we cherish in our founding and in our Constitution, and how can we utilize those, apply those, to the current issues of the day? I mean, the founders never contemplated really anything like AI or, you know, the, the flying cars that Elon is now, potentially putting out that, Governor DeSantis has said, yeah, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna make those, those legal here in Florida. I mean, you know, some of these things that, you, of course, the founders couldn't have contemplated. I wouldn't have even contemplated, you know, 20 years ago. And so, we, we can though, say, all right, what are the principles of liberty and freedom, and how do those apply to the issues of our day, and how do we best move forward with creating that, more perfect union in the sense that we have all of the liberties that we should to do good but also all of the evils that we see and all of the the nonsense and all of the perversion, you know, which is the definition of course of perversion is taking truth and twisting it and you know, doesn't have to be diametrically opposed. Some of the, the leftist positions are diametrically opposed to truth. But even the positions that just take truth twisted a little bit and say, you know, we don't want to have those types of perversions and government is an institution, God ordained to restrain those those types of false worldviews and those false types of actions. There is no freedom or liberty, in, in Christ or in a moral and upright society to do evil. We are free to do good. And so where do you see especially within perhaps the realm of you know, Christian broadcasting, but even more largely in terms of our overall society. Where do you think we need to be as Christians focused on understanding the principles and applying them post this election like before 2028.
Troy Miller Yeah, before 2028. and just things are going to happen in between in our own communities because Jen, I'll step for a second. Sometimes we look at the big, you know, presidential cycles as oh, this is the time I should get involved in the governance. But go back again to those principles of the founding fathers. They were involved. They use those principles on a day to day basis. you know, and as you said, none of us could, none of them, none of us 20 years ago envision flying cars and all this out of a sci fi movie. But the principals don't really care how the technology changes or communication methods changes. They're foundational in what we do. And so for us, I think one of the things that we have been working on as Christian communicators and I think pastors have to work on is really, I think is a foundational problem to the Christian community in particular is Bible literacy. Ah, in our country is kind of at an all time low. a lot of people don't understand the founding principles in Christianity that make a difference all the way through society. We wouldn't have a lot of these sort of public debates or political debates on issues if Christians were more foundational in holding to life, holding to sexuality, holding to marriage, holding to what does it m mean to have, you know, overuse of alcohol or drugs, all of these sort of things and even economic principles that we hold as Christian, as Christians we probably wouldn't see the national debt that we have today. And so we have to build this foundation of what those principles are. And regardless, again, I think the mud waters have been so muddied. The principles comes from. First they're applied to politics because politics is the way, elections happen and parties get put together. But the principles are outside. Whether you're a Republican, a Democrat, a libertarian, a socialist, the principles are outside of that. And for Christians that has to be the starting point.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, absolutely. and that's where we have to not just rely on the partisan politics because I mean, like it or not, the Republican Party is never going to be the church. I think that's a good thing. And I don't think that their responsibility is necessarily to teach, the, the principles of Christianity. That's the province of the church. Now should they, as a, as the, the conservative party and as someone who's, who's asking, for the evangelical and the Christian base vote, should their platform reflect those values? Absolutely. And they should be very clear about that. But the Republican Party, and especially every person who runs under a Republican ticket isn't necessarily going to be the perfect Christian or even the perfect candidate. we've all had candidates in primaries that we wished would have gone on to the general, but that's the point of the primaries. And so in what, in what I guess context, do you see Troy Miller, the church and us as individual Christians because we're part of the church and we have a responsibility to teach the truth of Christ as well. what responsibility do we have to engage these basic principles first so that we're not just relying on the messaging of the political campaigns and the ads to do that work for us? Because they're never going to lay that foundation. I think that's actually the job of the Christians in society and in particular religious broadcasters.
Troy Miller Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That is the job of the church, of church leadership of pastors, Christian communicators, those who have been called to be teachers, and those who have been given up onto leadership of the church. Paul tells us in Ephesians, that they are to equip the church for the work of ministry. Right. And so, ah, one of the primary responsibilities of equipment in the church is shepherding the church in these key, which now have become social issues, but at the root of them are really foundational biblical issues. They're issues of faith, of doctrine, of scripture, of what we believe. And so it really does, it starts in the churches. We should not be, as you said, looking for biblical guidance from any political party as A matter of fact, the way our country works in this constitutional republic and this democracy, in the way we execute that constitutional republic, is it should be the other way around. the people should be the representation of those principles. And it is. Those who are trying to represent those people should be looking, looking at the, electorate as the source, not the other way around. So candidates should be saying, who are the people I'm representing? What is important to them? What are the values, that they have? What's the morality that they live out? That's what I'm representing. and we've sort of got that flipped on its head these days. we look at it as the other way around, but it starts with us. It starts with Christian communicators. It starts in the pulpits across this country of being willing and having the courage to actually step up and shepherd people on these biblical issues, that Scripture speaks so clear about, regardless of the pushback that we're going to get or, in some cases, maybe the bias or the marginalization or even the cancel culture where biblical fidelity comes first.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, 100%. And that's part of being responsible Christian leaders, and especially for pastors, for broadcasters, but also individual Christians. Taking a stand may come with, sacrificing some measure of popularity or job opportunities or members of your congregation or, you know, a lot of other potential consequences, but that's what standing for truth ultimately requires. And, for pastors and especially church leadership, why do they need to. I mean, the answer is obvious, but why, why do they need to be willing to sacrifice popularity and kind of this secular metric of success and numbers and giving and donations and buildings, all these other things for convictions and actually speak the truth.
Troy Miller Because the core, one of the core fundamental purposes of a Christian leader, that we hold dear is that truth matters. And in truth is what is the foundational piece that changes, hearts and minds and brings people into alignment with Christ. and it's not, not our charisma, it's not our popularity, it's not how many likes, we get. It's not many followers we get. That's not. As leaders, the Bible tells us, are going to be judged more strictly. That's not going to be the criteria that's looked at there. It's going to be looked at whether we were faithful to the truth of Scripture and we were faithful to our calling to shepherd, to train, to teach and to equip and to build up the saints for the working, of the gospel.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, absolutely. And we've got to take a break here. But true, Miller is going to stick with us through the break. We're going to continue to talk about this topic. And this is why Christians need to have a biblical understanding of the institutions that God ordained. The church government, the family government and the civil government. Because if we don't have an understanding of God's authority, his delegated authority to these three institutions, how they are supposed to work in unison, in some ways and with some overlap with definitely distinct jurisdictions, with responsibilities with requirements, for leadership, then we won't be able to teach those principles. It's not just a matter of voting our values. It's also a matter of in between the elections, teaching our values and teaching a basic biblical understanding of living out the Christian life in our families, in our churches and then in broader civil society. So, we're going to be right back with more with Troy Miller and you can during the break, follow him on X. And also the National Religious Broadcasters, which afr, is very, proud to support and we love being part of the nrb. We'll be right back.
Troy Miller Foreign
Jenna Ellis hi, I'm Jenna Ellis. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.netforward/give. That's afr.net welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis Welcome back. Well, I'm still here with my special guest, this morning Troy Miller, who is the president of the National Religious Broadcasters. And we're talking about the American dream and why an understanding of the basic principles of civil society, which is not just for America obviously, but for any civil society that is functioning well and according to God's design, understands these principles and is willing to do the heavy lifting to ensure that society reflects morality and uprightness and the biblical principles that God, ah, provided government for. And you know, often in, in among the right, we tend to not like a government and say, you know, get off my lawn. And I'm, I'm 100%, I understand why that is, especially because current government, even though it was founded on the principle, one of the principles as limited, especially on the federal level, there's just so many ways that the government has intruded. They have completely, you know, taxed us to the breaking point. we have A growing national debt. We have, you know, so many things that we could rightly complain about. But the solution is within our founding documents and understanding how we can rein in the federal government and not just say, well, because our government is acting in illegitimate ways, on all of these different issues. And that must mean that government as a whole is illegitimate. Well, no, the Bible teaches us otherwise. And just like there are some churches that unfortunately teach, heresy or they're not following the principles of biblical leadership for, their pastors or for their staff and elders. That doesn't mean that the institution of the church then, is suspect. It means that that particular, that particular agency or that particular example of the institution may be flawed and needs to be reined in. Same thing for the family. And so when we're talking Troy Miller about beyond the midterms, with control of Congress, you know, on the line, we've talked about, you know, why voter participation matters, but America's long term future also depends on more and these principles that we're talking about then just which party wins in November. Because we can't just say, if the, if the Republicans retain the trifecta. Okay, well, good, I've done my job. Now I can just ignore, the rest of civil society and government until, you know, maybe around October of 2028. Then I have to figure out, okay, well, do I, who do I need to vote for in the presidential election? I mean, the, the the stewarding of government and civil society is a constant, ongoing caretaking stewardship. Just like being members of our churches and members of our families.
Troy Miller Wow. Yeah, absolutely. Look, when Jon Adams, his famous quote, said our Constitution was made only for immoral religious people. It is wholly inaccurate, inadequate to govern any other. He, was talking about the society, the civil society, the population, the people of the US beyond the government. And we have sort of. I think at least I'll go back to. I think sometime in the 80s we had this sort of concept, this idea that if we just voted into office the right people and everything, then we could just sort of get back to our daily lives and our daily lives, lives being more about, you know, how we function, but not how we really affect society. I think we have to go back and remember that the Bible calls us to be salt and light. And it doesn't say just be salt light during an election cycle. It says that we're always to be salt and light. We're always to be there to help society and to move society. And to move people into really what we call as Christians, into, a righteousness, into a right way of living. And Christianity has impacted, almost every culture. Every culture it's gone into. Christianity has always impact culture for the good, whether it be in education, whether it be in health care, whether it be in the rights, for those who didn't have rights, minorities in the culture or women in the culture. Because we believe that all individuals are created in God's image, we have always raised the standard. Human flourishing has followed a moral and religious society, a moral and religious people. And so it really gets down to us doing that, as you said, on an everyday basis. From an individual standpoint, all of us should be willing to sacrifice to do as Christ said. I'm always reminded that in Jon when he was in the upper room and in talking to the disciples, he said, you know, the commandment, you know, to love your neighbor as yourself. He said, I give you a new commandment to love one another as I have loved you. And that was a sacrifice. Christ was about to sacrifice on the cross, give the greatest thing he could, his life, to provide salvation for a sinful people. And he called us to do the same. Sometimes we sacrifice our own comfort, we sacrifice, maybe even our own prosperity, our own pleasure. We put those things aside, when there's a bigger thing in order, a bigger picture in order here. And for us as Christians, it is that we're the foundation of creating that moral and religious society. It doesn't get created outside the church. Government can't do it. Ah, educational institutions can't do it. God has chartered, called, given to the church, those leaders who are to do that on an everyday basis.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, so well said and what a great encouragement and admonishment to pastors who, Maybe you're listening and you are a pastor, or maybe you're listening and your pastor has not yet talked about these issues and has not talked about the election and is staying kind of cloistered into. Well, we're just going to continue, you know, our series in, you, know, whatever book of the Bible you're going through. And that's obviously really important as well, to. To systematically teach, through Scripture. But then you also come to passages like Romans 13. You come to, you know, the, the fullness of what God intends for human flourishing, for his plan, even in a fallen world, as we, await his return or until he calls us home, he has a plan for us and a best way of living according to his manual or the, Ways that we can get off. And we've seen, we can see the history of the children of Israel when, you know, they fought and complained and did all the things wrong and they suffered because of it. But when they were following God's plan, and they had righteous leaders, righteous kings, then things went better for them. Them. And, and that is a, an example to us that we, need to have leaders who understand the principles of a legitimate government, not just our US Constitution, and how they can maybe work within that and manipulate it to the outcome they prefer, but actually use the principles of a limited government, that is of the people and by the people, for the people. And the purpose of government is to protect the rights of the. That come from God himself, not that the government has to do everything for you. The government should actually restrain itself so that we can continue, to flourish. And if pastors aren't teaching these principles, and notice I didn't have to say anything about Republican or Democrat or this election or whatever in talking about the principles of government. That's something that pastors need to understand. And it has been really, frankly surprising to me, Troy Miller, how many pastors, may be, you know, very well educated and should be in scripture, but when it comes to the application for civil society and government, it's like they, they are completely unaware of what our own government requires. and. And also the tools that we have available to create a more perfect union and to rein in our government. And so, you know, we tend to focus in the church and, you know, rightly so. I'm not saying that this isn't a good emphasis, but if we're only talking about the context of the family and having, you know, sermons on marriage and a child rearing and, you know, all of those things, then we're missing a huge opportunity to talk about the other relationships that we have outside the family, which is within our civil society. And we're missing the application of the principles of truth into the public square. And, and pastors need to not miss their moment to continue to teach these things well after November 3rd and well before November of 2028.
Troy Miller You know, it reminds me that sometimes we're. We're so good at, in. In the church, at teaching our congregations and even as Christian communicators, that evangelism should be taken out of the doors of the church and, you know, we should be sharing the gospel and with others, but we sort of fall short on the fact that everything else in our lives, all the other convictions that we hold or Beliefs that we hold, that we hold, those with deep conviction should also be carried outside of the four wall walls of the church and our homes, into our everyday lives. And that's I think, something we have really, you know, lost over the years. That was what the founding fathers had. That's what really society had in early America in that time of revolution. They were not only were they very deeply Bible literate, understanding the scriptures, probably, more so, than. And today they would probably be considered scholars, but they were deeply committed to living their lives out by Scripture, which was not political. And I think what has happened, the propaganda that has come out of government, the whole misconception of the separation of church of state or government, saying you can't talk about these things from the pulpit, you know, we have sort of given up our convictions to, well, if the government said I can't do this, I shouldn't do it, or if I'm going to, you know, offend people, or if it's going to be, something that prevents me from sharing the gospel, then I won't do it. But that's not what scripture says. Scripture calls us to be obedient in our lives and to be, to be salt and light is to live out those things, beliefs, to live out the faith that we say we hold dearly to, to the can, to the point of conviction that we're more concerned about living out that life before God than we are about what man people, anybody might think about us or even react to that. And I think that's. We've lost some of that in society today. That there are, unfortunately I think there are people on non Christians who live out their convictions and people of other faiths, Muslim faiths, who are deeply committed to living out their beliefs, where Christians are kind of okay to do that in the church, but when it comes to society, I'm just afraid to do that because somehow I might offend somebody.
Jenna Ellis Yeah. You know, I've been saying for a while, and even earlier this week, I was saying that I've, I've said that the left genuinely wants to be world changers. They think that their view of America and of the world, globally is the best one for their own reasons. I mean I, some of them I think are very dishonest, but you know, but they are activists and they are willing to put those, their principles and their values into practice regardless of, of what anyone says about them. I mean you, you can rightly call out their corruption, their socialism, their you Know, lack of reality, the unfairness of, you know, men and women's sports. I mean, all of these things, they don't care. They push it through anyway. And yet, you know, you tell a pastor sometimes, like, oh, you. You may have a divide, and you may get some people complain, complaining that you're preaching politics from the pulpit. Okay, well, sorry, my bad. You know, where, do we really want to be world changers or not? And it shouldn't be that the left wants to change the world more than Christians do, because we are actually commanded to be good stewards of our societies, of our families, and, and. And to not dwell on the world. I mean, we need to obviously have hope in eternity, the new heaven and the new earth. But we are required and called to steward, where we can and fulfill the duties and obligations that God has given to us. And so if we don't want to be world changers, well, the left definitely does. And so where. Why do you think it is that so many Christians just kind of say, well, you know, I voted and I'm good, or, you know, we kind of recede, in America, retreat into some of the comfort that comes with when we don't have the inevitable conflict of standing for truth. Because if you stand for something, you're definitely going to have opposition. That just, that's the nature of standing firm.
Troy Miller And the nature of Christianity was summed up by Christ when he said, don't be surprised when the world hates you, because it hated me first. the world wants to hold on to its order. And I think that's why we see those of the world that are just so passionate about, you know, their beliefs, their causes. They passionately believe that they have a better idea. And we can get into, as you said, all of the things around that and the amount of suffering, that many of these political ideologies have caused. But it's really, Do we hold deeply to that conviction that it's the truth that matters, that the truth is the core to who we are as Christians, and the truth is never going to be an impediment to the gospel. We sort of think sometimes that if I tell a homosexual that homosexuality is wrong, then I'm not going to be able to share the gospel with them. If I tell, somebody who's thinking about or is transgender that. That God created, ah, male and female, and the real issue is a spiritual issue or an issue, that we have to deal with. It's not that transgenderism is okay, or marriages or abortion. We Take all of those issues and somehow we've come to this idea that standing up for biblical truth, and I've heard this from just too many pastors, I heard this a few days ago. Somehow standing up for biblical truths when it comes to particularly, the political side is going to be an impediment for the gospel. Truth is never an impediment for the gospel. It's never a roadblock for the gospel. As a matter of fact, truth is the pavement of the road to the gospel. And I think as churches and individuals across the country, we have to shed all that propaganda that has been put on us for 40 or 50 years that this idea that all of that your faith is private, it belongs in the privacy of your home, it belongs to the privacy of your church. that's just not the case. That's not who we are as Christians. As Christians, I think we're called, our faith should be more public than any other belief system in the world.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, so well said. Well, we've got to take another break here, but absolutely a trimilia, you're spot on. And we've got to take responsibility, for not just our families and for our churches, but also for civil society. And we're going to continue to talk about that when we come right back here on Jenna Ellis in the morning. We're living in a defined moment in history. Today, a woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can order the abortion pill online, often before anyone has had the chance to tell her she is loved, that she's not alone, or that there is hope. That's why you are needed right now. You were made for this moment. At PreBorn Network clinics, mothers are welcomed with compassion, practical support and a free ultrasound. And when she sees her baby and hears that tiny heart heartbeat for the very first time, fear often gives way to hope. In fact, more than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing their baby on an ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic. That one moment can save a baby's life and open a mother's heart to the hope of Jesus Christ. This is our moment to stand for those who cannot speak for themselves. Just $28 provides one life saving ultrasound sound $140 helps rescue five babies. Please don't wait. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby or give [email protected] afr that's preborn.com afr Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning. On American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis Welcome back. Well, we're talking about engaging in civil government. And as Christians, we have a responsibility and an obligation to steward our civil society and engage more than just in voting in teaching the principles of government and God's ultimate authority over the three institutions that he has ordained. The family government, the church government, and the civil government. But as we are looking ahead to the midterms in a week from Tuesday, we do want to talk about the importance of voting and how Christians can sift through a lot of the advertisements, the commercials, the messaging, and maybe some of the conflicts internally that you may be experiencing in considering how do I best steward my vote? And with diligence and with Christian responsibility, actually use that to the best benefit of the Lord. And so there's a great article, by a very dear friend of mine who I've known, for years in a variety of contexts, and I was really excited to have him on the program this morning. It's in the Washington stand, and it's, the headline is voting with your bibles open. And so he says, how do you sort through the slick messages and hype to make the best decision? The answer may be in that bible in front of you. So this is by Tim Echols, who is the executive director of the pray vote stand chapter initiative with frc. So, Tim, I'm so grateful to have you join this morning. And, what a great response that the answer, of course, is in scripture.
Tim Echols Yeah. And this, this phrase vote with your bibles open came from the pastor of Calvary Chapel, Chattanooga. I heard him say this. He and I were talking, and, I said, man, that's really the message pastors need to be giving. Jenna. Pastors are so squeamish out there. As I travel around the country for frc, they're squeamish about engaging. I mean, I'm coming to you from St. Louis right now, where Amendment 3 is on the ballot out here. and it's just hard to get past your to say anything. And so we, we took and adopted this message of voting with your Bibles open because we felt like, well, this is something a pastor might can say. They might can feel good about saying this. And then it's a whole nother thing to unpack this for a believer to understand. Okay, what does that mean when I'm voting for city council or county commission? you know, what does it mean to vote with my bibles open?
Jenna Ellis Yeah. And what does that mean in a practical application? Because when we're talking about issues, I Think that's little more direct because as you mentioned in the article, marriage, gender, abortion, religious liberty, even fiscal policy, the, the economic capitalism versus socialism. I mean, those are pretty clear issues that Christians, I think, have our minds wrapped around. And we, and we understand that. But when we have to defend potentially other votes for individuals that may not have, you know, the best personal history, or someone suggests, like, let's just take the example out of Texas, Texas saying, okay, James Talarico versus Ken Paxton. And a Christian says, well, how do I defend scripturally and biblically if I wanted to vote for Ken Paxton? Because, you know, he's the Republican over the Democrat. We'll just take this as an example. but I don't want to suggest to my fellow believers that I approve of, you know, maybe some of his personal life decisions like, the affairs that have been reported and some of those things. How do Christians answer those types of questions?
Tim Echols You know, I think most people, when they think about voting with their Bible open, the normal vernacular they would use is maybe voting for a person with a moral compass. so that's a word that we've heard used before, and I think it's kind of synonymous to voting with your Bible open. And I often remind people that, you know, that the power of appointments, the number, the sheer number of appointments say that a governor makes, it's into the thousands. And so when, you're looking at who to vote for, I think you always have to think about it's not just that person's moral compass, it's the people that they're going to pick to be judges, to be agency heads, and to run, you know, parts of state government that impact children or families or determine moral issues or policies. so, you know, we've got to look, I think even beyond the single individual at, you know, how is this person, what group is this person going to be in? How are they going to be influenced? Are they going to create policies that reflect scripture? Because, you know, you can take, Jenna, even a person that, that maybe hasn't been, you know, a true conservative on everything, and you, you put them into a group of conservatives as say, a caucus, and all of a sudden now they are under pressure from their own people, their own party people to, you know, to you know, to, to go along with, you know, whatever the particular issue is. And you see Mike Johnson herding cats and trying to, trying to do this. So I think it's, you know, it is, it is bigger than just a single individual's Moral compass, yeah, absolutely.
Jenna Ellis And Proverbs 29 talks about when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule, people mourn. And that tells us a very clear connection between the moral character and the attitude of leaders and the well being of a nation or a state or a city. I mean, talking about all the way down ballot, our local leaders absolutely matter. It's not just the larger offices. And Scripture repeatedly distinguishes between righteous and wicked rulers. Does the Bible give us an objective standard for evaluating political leadership that Christians can look to rather than simply voting according to perhaps our personal preferences or even party preferences? Because it seems like so much of the messaging is just Republican versus Democrat, when clearly that's not the biblical standard.
Tim Echols Well, I mean, the Bible has to be applicable in every, you know, in, in every country with every form of government in, you know, in all times and under all circumstances. So, you know, the difficulty that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego found themselves in, that Nehemiah found himself in, that Esther found herself in, and Scripture is applicable to all of those people in all of those situations. It just looks different in a different culture. So for us in America, with the freedom that we have to choose our own leaders, not every country, they don't get to do that. China, they don't do that. Russia, they don't really do that. it may look like they're doing it, but they're really not choosing their own people. So.
Tim Echols So if the duty to elect people falls to us, then I would say that we have a responsibility, an obligation, rendering to Caesar, if you will. So when Jesus looked at the coin and saw the image, and said, render to Caesar what is Caesar in America, when you render back to the government what it's due, part of that is us voting, us exercising our citizenship. But I think, as I said yesterday on Washington Watch with Tony, we've got too many Christians sitting on the bench. They're not playing offense, they're not playing defense, they're on the bench. And some of them aren't even in the stadium at all. they haven't even left the House yet. And we need those people engaged and helping to pick their leaders. And when you say vote with your Bibles open, you know, you're assuming that you're voting for people with moral character, and regardless of their party. And Jenna, so many, so many offices are nonpartisan. You think about your mayor, your council, people, judges, these people. It's nonpartisan. And you can, you can go and, as a As a believer, commend a person's moral character, their actions, the things that they've done, and give credit where credit is due. When a person takes a strong moral stand, regardless of what maybe their history has been before, if they stand and they do the right thing today, I think we, we want to encourage that. We want to say that, hey, you know, I can stand with you on this. This is good. Let's have some more of that.
Jenna Ellis Absolutely. And churches need to be encouraging biblical civic engagement. And also the church leaders need to equip believers for work of the ministry. And that includes being responsible with our citizen. And that includes, of course, voting, but also to prepare our future leaders. Because we want to have good people to vote for, and we want to have good judges to a point. We want to have good people that we can get into these offices. And so often listeners, will write in and say, and we see this across social media. Well, I'm tired of just voting for the lesser of two evils. Well, what about then, the church being responsible to act their membership? Are you called to be in an elected office, or are you called to a ministry in your profession that you could go and work for an elected official or be appointed as a judge? And you know, Tim, I had mentioned at the top of this segment that you and I go way back and, you know, you were a huge, impact on my life's work and God's calling in my ministry, with your founding of an organization called Team Page, which, for then primarily for homeschool students, but for any students to learn about our system of government. And I got engaged in that program, early on, in my teens that I think about 13, but at 14, went to the judicial portion of that program that taught about what we do in, in the realm of justice and in the courts of law. And I was 14 and knew that I wanted that area of vocation to be my ministry. And I could have never anticipated it in that time. You know, this is back In, I think 1999 was probably when I went to the judicial program. And I could have never imagined what God would do with that calling in that ministry. But because of your stewardship of teaching young people, you have equipped so many more students than just me. but definitely you impacted me, and I appreciate that you have, and I'm grateful that you responded to God's calling in your life to equip other believers now that we can have thriving ministries. And that is a huge part of all of this as well. It's not just about voting and it's not just about being engaged in what we think of as full time ministry, but really using our vocations to have a complete view of citizenship and be responsible in all aspects of government and in these vocations.
Tim Echols Yeah. And if you look at what George Barna has released about kids and their biblical worldview out at Arizona Christian is that only about 4% of young people have a biblical worldview. That should alarm us. we've got to play the long game in this. And I know at frc, Tony Perkins has told me multiple times, tim, you got to think generationally. Do not just think about the next election cycle. You've got to look beyond that. And that's what we're doing with Teen Pack. That's why we met a 13 year old, Jenna Ellis and invited her to continue to grow and get on the leadership ladder in our organization. We just need more of that, Jenna. We need more organizations playing the long game. If you think about who's preparing people to run for office, a lot of our local Republican county chapters, you take Colorado Springs, El Paso county, that's a huge chapter there and it's run by a believer. he's the chair of that El Paso county chapter. We need more Christians getting out there doing the grunt work in their party chapter, if they feel so led, so that they can be quote, groomed to run for political office. Because a lot of these people that wind up running for county commission or state representative, they've been a second vice chair, first vice chair or chair of their local Republican chapter. And that's preparing them, you know, to step into leadership if, if we don't. I can tell you that Muslims are reproducing in big numbers. They are setting up, and you know, they're setting up shop all over the country. They're having an impact.
Jenna Ellis Yeah. So we have got to have an impact. And churches need to be equipping the vocation and ministries of young people to make a difference. And I'm so grateful, Tim, Echols, that you are making a difference at frc. Thank you for all of the work and ministry you've done. His article is in the Washington stand voting with your Bibles open. Follow him on X. As always, you can reach me the AT. Join my team. Jennafr.net PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com afr.
Jenna Ellis We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But she can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside her. One ultrasound is just $28 and to donate dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com afr Jenna Ellis in the morning on American Family Rad.
Jenna Ellis I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and ah, protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.
Jenna Ellis Good morning. Well, it is Friday, Friday, October 23rd. And this means we are a little over a week out from the midterm. So a week from Tuesday on November 3rd. And so much focus and speculation and polling and everything else has been, focused on this particular election. And you know, with good reason. And I think that it's not a too great of a leap or too far of a leap to suggest that each election really is the next most important election of our lifetimes. Why we here in America get to select and prefer our leaders. And when you have the two completely different views of reality that the conservatives versus, the leftists are basically the truth versus anything else that is not truth present, those are two very dramatically different views of what the future of America looks like. And we've been talking this week about the post election agenda of the gop, the inevitable bloodbath that will be MAGA Inc. Versus the, establishment GOP for control Socialists, versus, you know, whatever the Democrat Party thinks that it might be, instead of embracing socialism. But really we also need to kind of take a top level picture or a 30,000 foot perspective like we often do on Fridays to talk about the overall future of America and the American dream about, really, are we still committed to leaving our children a better future? And that was the question that Troy Miller, who is the president of the National Religious Broadcasters association posed. And I think it's a really good one. And so, Troy, good morning. And you know, I really appreciate this question because it gets out of this kind of tribalistic mentality of, well, you know, you better vote Republican, you know, just because. Or, or people who are saying, well, you know, I want to teach Republicans a lesson, so I'm going to sit this one out, or just hyper focused on the parties and the personalities and the politics and actually get to what are we doing in the business of governing as an institution that God ordained for our good, to promote good, restrain evil? what actually are we doing here?
Troy Miller Yeah, right. Jennifer, thanks for having me today. And I, I really do believe that you nailed it there. That's kind of a core question for us is, you know, what is our role as citizens? And then specifically, of course, as Christian citizen citizens, you know, when it comes to the governance, of our country. And I think if we go back and look at some of the statements of our founding fathers and even go back a little farther and look at the whole concept of why the Pilgrims, why, people migrated over from Europe to this wilderness. It was initially always about this idea of really freedom and providing a place where freedom of conscience, freedom, to do and live out what I believed, our beliefs and what our children would be like. You know, you think about the Pilgrims. They left the comfort of Europe, came over to this wilderness, sacrificed everything, knowing they probably were not going to see the fruits of their labors, but their children, were going to see this. And that just moved all through the American spirits, what we call the American dream. And it really also helps us to step back and think about the governance of this country, not from a political standpoint, but from a standpoint of principles.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, 100%. And, you know, and this is where conservatives have largely focused on principles rather than party personality, you know, or anything else is saying, okay, what are the principles that we cherish in our founding and in our Constitution, and how can we utilize those, apply those, to the current issues of the day? I mean, the founders never contemplated really anything like AI or, you know, the, the flying cars that Elon is now, potentially putting out that, Governor DeSantis has said, yeah, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna make those, those legal here in Florida. I mean, you know, some of these things that, you, of course, the founders couldn't have contemplated. I wouldn't have even contemplated, you know, 20 years ago. And so, we, we can though, say, all right, what are the principles of liberty and freedom, and how do those apply to the issues of our day, and how do we best move forward with creating that, more perfect union in the sense that we have all of the liberties that we should to do good but also all of the evils that we see and all of the the nonsense and all of the perversion, you know, which is the definition of course of perversion is taking truth and twisting it and you know, doesn't have to be diametrically opposed. Some of the, the leftist positions are diametrically opposed to truth. But even the positions that just take truth twisted a little bit and say, you know, we don't want to have those types of perversions and government is an institution, God ordained to restrain those those types of false worldviews and those false types of actions. There is no freedom or liberty, in, in Christ or in a moral and upright society to do evil. We are free to do good. And so where do you see especially within perhaps the realm of you know, Christian broadcasting, but even more largely in terms of our overall society. Where do you think we need to be as Christians focused on understanding the principles and applying them post this election like before 2028.
Troy Miller Yeah, before 2028. and just things are going to happen in between in our own communities because Jen, I'll step for a second. Sometimes we look at the big, you know, presidential cycles as oh, this is the time I should get involved in the governance. But go back again to those principles of the founding fathers. They were involved. They use those principles on a day to day basis. you know, and as you said, none of us could, none of them, none of us 20 years ago envision flying cars and all this out of a sci fi movie. But the principals don't really care how the technology changes or communication methods changes. They're foundational in what we do. And so for us, I think one of the things that we have been working on as Christian communicators and I think pastors have to work on is really, I think is a foundational problem to the Christian community in particular is Bible literacy. Ah, in our country is kind of at an all time low. a lot of people don't understand the founding principles in Christianity that make a difference all the way through society. We wouldn't have a lot of these sort of public debates or political debates on issues if Christians were more foundational in holding to life, holding to sexuality, holding to marriage, holding to what does it m mean to have, you know, overuse of alcohol or drugs, all of these sort of things and even economic principles that we hold as Christian, as Christians we probably wouldn't see the national debt that we have today. And so we have to build this foundation of what those principles are. And regardless, again, I think the mud waters have been so muddied. The principles comes from. First they're applied to politics because politics is the way, elections happen and parties get put together. But the principles are outside. Whether you're a Republican, a Democrat, a libertarian, a socialist, the principles are outside of that. And for Christians that has to be the starting point.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, absolutely. and that's where we have to not just rely on the partisan politics because I mean, like it or not, the Republican Party is never going to be the church. I think that's a good thing. And I don't think that their responsibility is necessarily to teach, the, the principles of Christianity. That's the province of the church. Now should they, as a, as the, the conservative party and as someone who's, who's asking, for the evangelical and the Christian base vote, should their platform reflect those values? Absolutely. And they should be very clear about that. But the Republican Party, and especially every person who runs under a Republican ticket isn't necessarily going to be the perfect Christian or even the perfect candidate. we've all had candidates in primaries that we wished would have gone on to the general, but that's the point of the primaries. And so in what, in what I guess context, do you see Troy Miller, the church and us as individual Christians because we're part of the church and we have a responsibility to teach the truth of Christ as well. what responsibility do we have to engage these basic principles first so that we're not just relying on the messaging of the political campaigns and the ads to do that work for us? Because they're never going to lay that foundation. I think that's actually the job of the Christians in society and in particular religious broadcasters.
Troy Miller Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That is the job of the church, of church leadership of pastors, Christian communicators, those who have been called to be teachers, and those who have been given up onto leadership of the church. Paul tells us in Ephesians, that they are to equip the church for the work of ministry. Right. And so, ah, one of the primary responsibilities of equipment in the church is shepherding the church in these key, which now have become social issues, but at the root of them are really foundational biblical issues. They're issues of faith, of doctrine, of scripture, of what we believe. And so it really does, it starts in the churches. We should not be, as you said, looking for biblical guidance from any political party as A matter of fact, the way our country works in this constitutional republic and this democracy, in the way we execute that constitutional republic, is it should be the other way around. the people should be the representation of those principles. And it is. Those who are trying to represent those people should be looking, looking at the, electorate as the source, not the other way around. So candidates should be saying, who are the people I'm representing? What is important to them? What are the values, that they have? What's the morality that they live out? That's what I'm representing. and we've sort of got that flipped on its head these days. we look at it as the other way around, but it starts with us. It starts with Christian communicators. It starts in the pulpits across this country of being willing and having the courage to actually step up and shepherd people on these biblical issues, that Scripture speaks so clear about, regardless of the pushback that we're going to get or, in some cases, maybe the bias or the marginalization or even the cancel culture where biblical fidelity comes first.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, 100%. And that's part of being responsible Christian leaders, and especially for pastors, for broadcasters, but also individual Christians. Taking a stand may come with, sacrificing some measure of popularity or job opportunities or members of your congregation or, you know, a lot of other potential consequences, but that's what standing for truth ultimately requires. And, for pastors and especially church leadership, why do they need to. I mean, the answer is obvious, but why, why do they need to be willing to sacrifice popularity and kind of this secular metric of success and numbers and giving and donations and buildings, all these other things for convictions and actually speak the truth.
Troy Miller Because the core, one of the core fundamental purposes of a Christian leader, that we hold dear is that truth matters. And in truth is what is the foundational piece that changes, hearts and minds and brings people into alignment with Christ. and it's not, not our charisma, it's not our popularity, it's not how many likes, we get. It's not many followers we get. That's not. As leaders, the Bible tells us, are going to be judged more strictly. That's not going to be the criteria that's looked at there. It's going to be looked at whether we were faithful to the truth of Scripture and we were faithful to our calling to shepherd, to train, to teach and to equip and to build up the saints for the working, of the gospel.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, absolutely. And we've got to take a break here. But true, Miller is going to stick with us through the break. We're going to continue to talk about this topic. And this is why Christians need to have a biblical understanding of the institutions that God ordained. The church government, the family government and the civil government. Because if we don't have an understanding of God's authority, his delegated authority to these three institutions, how they are supposed to work in unison, in some ways and with some overlap with definitely distinct jurisdictions, with responsibilities with requirements, for leadership, then we won't be able to teach those principles. It's not just a matter of voting our values. It's also a matter of in between the elections, teaching our values and teaching a basic biblical understanding of living out the Christian life in our families, in our churches and then in broader civil society. So, we're going to be right back with more with Troy Miller and you can during the break, follow him on X. And also the National Religious Broadcasters, which afr, is very, proud to support and we love being part of the nrb. We'll be right back.
Troy Miller Foreign
Jenna Ellis hi, I'm Jenna Ellis. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.netforward/give. That's afr.net welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis Welcome back. Well, I'm still here with my special guest, this morning Troy Miller, who is the president of the National Religious Broadcasters. And we're talking about the American dream and why an understanding of the basic principles of civil society, which is not just for America obviously, but for any civil society that is functioning well and according to God's design, understands these principles and is willing to do the heavy lifting to ensure that society reflects morality and uprightness and the biblical principles that God, ah, provided government for. And you know, often in, in among the right, we tend to not like a government and say, you know, get off my lawn. And I'm, I'm 100%, I understand why that is, especially because current government, even though it was founded on the principle, one of the principles as limited, especially on the federal level, there's just so many ways that the government has intruded. They have completely, you know, taxed us to the breaking point. we have A growing national debt. We have, you know, so many things that we could rightly complain about. But the solution is within our founding documents and understanding how we can rein in the federal government and not just say, well, because our government is acting in illegitimate ways, on all of these different issues. And that must mean that government as a whole is illegitimate. Well, no, the Bible teaches us otherwise. And just like there are some churches that unfortunately teach, heresy or they're not following the principles of biblical leadership for, their pastors or for their staff and elders. That doesn't mean that the institution of the church then, is suspect. It means that that particular, that particular agency or that particular example of the institution may be flawed and needs to be reined in. Same thing for the family. And so when we're talking Troy Miller about beyond the midterms, with control of Congress, you know, on the line, we've talked about, you know, why voter participation matters, but America's long term future also depends on more and these principles that we're talking about then just which party wins in November. Because we can't just say, if the, if the Republicans retain the trifecta. Okay, well, good, I've done my job. Now I can just ignore, the rest of civil society and government until, you know, maybe around October of 2028. Then I have to figure out, okay, well, do I, who do I need to vote for in the presidential election? I mean, the, the the stewarding of government and civil society is a constant, ongoing caretaking stewardship. Just like being members of our churches and members of our families.
Troy Miller Wow. Yeah, absolutely. Look, when Jon Adams, his famous quote, said our Constitution was made only for immoral religious people. It is wholly inaccurate, inadequate to govern any other. He, was talking about the society, the civil society, the population, the people of the US beyond the government. And we have sort of. I think at least I'll go back to. I think sometime in the 80s we had this sort of concept, this idea that if we just voted into office the right people and everything, then we could just sort of get back to our daily lives and our daily lives, lives being more about, you know, how we function, but not how we really affect society. I think we have to go back and remember that the Bible calls us to be salt and light. And it doesn't say just be salt light during an election cycle. It says that we're always to be salt and light. We're always to be there to help society and to move society. And to move people into really what we call as Christians, into, a righteousness, into a right way of living. And Christianity has impacted, almost every culture. Every culture it's gone into. Christianity has always impact culture for the good, whether it be in education, whether it be in health care, whether it be in the rights, for those who didn't have rights, minorities in the culture or women in the culture. Because we believe that all individuals are created in God's image, we have always raised the standard. Human flourishing has followed a moral and religious society, a moral and religious people. And so it really gets down to us doing that, as you said, on an everyday basis. From an individual standpoint, all of us should be willing to sacrifice to do as Christ said. I'm always reminded that in Jon when he was in the upper room and in talking to the disciples, he said, you know, the commandment, you know, to love your neighbor as yourself. He said, I give you a new commandment to love one another as I have loved you. And that was a sacrifice. Christ was about to sacrifice on the cross, give the greatest thing he could, his life, to provide salvation for a sinful people. And he called us to do the same. Sometimes we sacrifice our own comfort, we sacrifice, maybe even our own prosperity, our own pleasure. We put those things aside, when there's a bigger thing in order, a bigger picture in order here. And for us as Christians, it is that we're the foundation of creating that moral and religious society. It doesn't get created outside the church. Government can't do it. Ah, educational institutions can't do it. God has chartered, called, given to the church, those leaders who are to do that on an everyday basis.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, so well said and what a great encouragement and admonishment to pastors who, Maybe you're listening and you are a pastor, or maybe you're listening and your pastor has not yet talked about these issues and has not talked about the election and is staying kind of cloistered into. Well, we're just going to continue, you know, our series in, you, know, whatever book of the Bible you're going through. And that's obviously really important as well, to. To systematically teach, through Scripture. But then you also come to passages like Romans 13. You come to, you know, the, the fullness of what God intends for human flourishing, for his plan, even in a fallen world, as we, await his return or until he calls us home, he has a plan for us and a best way of living according to his manual or the, Ways that we can get off. And we've seen, we can see the history of the children of Israel when, you know, they fought and complained and did all the things wrong and they suffered because of it. But when they were following God's plan, and they had righteous leaders, righteous kings, then things went better for them. Them. And, and that is a, an example to us that we, need to have leaders who understand the principles of a legitimate government, not just our US Constitution, and how they can maybe work within that and manipulate it to the outcome they prefer, but actually use the principles of a limited government, that is of the people and by the people, for the people. And the purpose of government is to protect the rights of the. That come from God himself, not that the government has to do everything for you. The government should actually restrain itself so that we can continue, to flourish. And if pastors aren't teaching these principles, and notice I didn't have to say anything about Republican or Democrat or this election or whatever in talking about the principles of government. That's something that pastors need to understand. And it has been really, frankly surprising to me, Troy Miller, how many pastors, may be, you know, very well educated and should be in scripture, but when it comes to the application for civil society and government, it's like they, they are completely unaware of what our own government requires. and. And also the tools that we have available to create a more perfect union and to rein in our government. And so, you know, we tend to focus in the church and, you know, rightly so. I'm not saying that this isn't a good emphasis, but if we're only talking about the context of the family and having, you know, sermons on marriage and a child rearing and, you know, all of those things, then we're missing a huge opportunity to talk about the other relationships that we have outside the family, which is within our civil society. And we're missing the application of the principles of truth into the public square. And, and pastors need to not miss their moment to continue to teach these things well after November 3rd and well before November of 2028.
Troy Miller You know, it reminds me that sometimes we're. We're so good at, in. In the church, at teaching our congregations and even as Christian communicators, that evangelism should be taken out of the doors of the church and, you know, we should be sharing the gospel and with others, but we sort of fall short on the fact that everything else in our lives, all the other convictions that we hold or Beliefs that we hold, that we hold, those with deep conviction should also be carried outside of the four wall walls of the church and our homes, into our everyday lives. And that's I think, something we have really, you know, lost over the years. That was what the founding fathers had. That's what really society had in early America in that time of revolution. They were not only were they very deeply Bible literate, understanding the scriptures, probably, more so, than. And today they would probably be considered scholars, but they were deeply committed to living their lives out by Scripture, which was not political. And I think what has happened, the propaganda that has come out of government, the whole misconception of the separation of church of state or government, saying you can't talk about these things from the pulpit, you know, we have sort of given up our convictions to, well, if the government said I can't do this, I shouldn't do it, or if I'm going to, you know, offend people, or if it's going to be, something that prevents me from sharing the gospel, then I won't do it. But that's not what scripture says. Scripture calls us to be obedient in our lives and to be, to be salt and light is to live out those things, beliefs, to live out the faith that we say we hold dearly to, to the can, to the point of conviction that we're more concerned about living out that life before God than we are about what man people, anybody might think about us or even react to that. And I think that's. We've lost some of that in society today. That there are, unfortunately I think there are people on non Christians who live out their convictions and people of other faiths, Muslim faiths, who are deeply committed to living out their beliefs, where Christians are kind of okay to do that in the church, but when it comes to society, I'm just afraid to do that because somehow I might offend somebody.
Jenna Ellis Yeah. You know, I've been saying for a while, and even earlier this week, I was saying that I've, I've said that the left genuinely wants to be world changers. They think that their view of America and of the world, globally is the best one for their own reasons. I mean I, some of them I think are very dishonest, but you know, but they are activists and they are willing to put those, their principles and their values into practice regardless of, of what anyone says about them. I mean you, you can rightly call out their corruption, their socialism, their you Know, lack of reality, the unfairness of, you know, men and women's sports. I mean, all of these things, they don't care. They push it through anyway. And yet, you know, you tell a pastor sometimes, like, oh, you. You may have a divide, and you may get some people complain, complaining that you're preaching politics from the pulpit. Okay, well, sorry, my bad. You know, where, do we really want to be world changers or not? And it shouldn't be that the left wants to change the world more than Christians do, because we are actually commanded to be good stewards of our societies, of our families, and, and. And to not dwell on the world. I mean, we need to obviously have hope in eternity, the new heaven and the new earth. But we are required and called to steward, where we can and fulfill the duties and obligations that God has given to us. And so if we don't want to be world changers, well, the left definitely does. And so where. Why do you think it is that so many Christians just kind of say, well, you know, I voted and I'm good, or, you know, we kind of recede, in America, retreat into some of the comfort that comes with when we don't have the inevitable conflict of standing for truth. Because if you stand for something, you're definitely going to have opposition. That just, that's the nature of standing firm.
Troy Miller And the nature of Christianity was summed up by Christ when he said, don't be surprised when the world hates you, because it hated me first. the world wants to hold on to its order. And I think that's why we see those of the world that are just so passionate about, you know, their beliefs, their causes. They passionately believe that they have a better idea. And we can get into, as you said, all of the things around that and the amount of suffering, that many of these political ideologies have caused. But it's really, Do we hold deeply to that conviction that it's the truth that matters, that the truth is the core to who we are as Christians, and the truth is never going to be an impediment to the gospel. We sort of think sometimes that if I tell a homosexual that homosexuality is wrong, then I'm not going to be able to share the gospel with them. If I tell, somebody who's thinking about or is transgender that. That God created, ah, male and female, and the real issue is a spiritual issue or an issue, that we have to deal with. It's not that transgenderism is okay, or marriages or abortion. We Take all of those issues and somehow we've come to this idea that standing up for biblical truth, and I've heard this from just too many pastors, I heard this a few days ago. Somehow standing up for biblical truths when it comes to particularly, the political side is going to be an impediment for the gospel. Truth is never an impediment for the gospel. It's never a roadblock for the gospel. As a matter of fact, truth is the pavement of the road to the gospel. And I think as churches and individuals across the country, we have to shed all that propaganda that has been put on us for 40 or 50 years that this idea that all of that your faith is private, it belongs in the privacy of your home, it belongs to the privacy of your church. that's just not the case. That's not who we are as Christians. As Christians, I think we're called, our faith should be more public than any other belief system in the world.
Jenna Ellis Yeah, so well said. Well, we've got to take another break here, but absolutely a trimilia, you're spot on. And we've got to take responsibility, for not just our families and for our churches, but also for civil society. And we're going to continue to talk about that when we come right back here on Jenna Ellis in the morning. We're living in a defined moment in history. Today, a woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can order the abortion pill online, often before anyone has had the chance to tell her she is loved, that she's not alone, or that there is hope. That's why you are needed right now. You were made for this moment. At PreBorn Network clinics, mothers are welcomed with compassion, practical support and a free ultrasound. And when she sees her baby and hears that tiny heart heartbeat for the very first time, fear often gives way to hope. In fact, more than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing their baby on an ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic. That one moment can save a baby's life and open a mother's heart to the hope of Jesus Christ. This is our moment to stand for those who cannot speak for themselves. Just $28 provides one life saving ultrasound sound $140 helps rescue five babies. Please don't wait. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby or give [email protected] afr that's preborn.com afr Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning. On American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis Welcome back. Well, we're talking about engaging in civil government. And as Christians, we have a responsibility and an obligation to steward our civil society and engage more than just in voting in teaching the principles of government and God's ultimate authority over the three institutions that he has ordained. The family government, the church government, and the civil government. But as we are looking ahead to the midterms in a week from Tuesday, we do want to talk about the importance of voting and how Christians can sift through a lot of the advertisements, the commercials, the messaging, and maybe some of the conflicts internally that you may be experiencing in considering how do I best steward my vote? And with diligence and with Christian responsibility, actually use that to the best benefit of the Lord. And so there's a great article, by a very dear friend of mine who I've known, for years in a variety of contexts, and I was really excited to have him on the program this morning. It's in the Washington stand, and it's, the headline is voting with your bibles open. And so he says, how do you sort through the slick messages and hype to make the best decision? The answer may be in that bible in front of you. So this is by Tim Echols, who is the executive director of the pray vote stand chapter initiative with frc. So, Tim, I'm so grateful to have you join this morning. And, what a great response that the answer, of course, is in scripture.
Tim Echols Yeah. And this, this phrase vote with your bibles open came from the pastor of Calvary Chapel, Chattanooga. I heard him say this. He and I were talking, and, I said, man, that's really the message pastors need to be giving. Jenna. Pastors are so squeamish out there. As I travel around the country for frc, they're squeamish about engaging. I mean, I'm coming to you from St. Louis right now, where Amendment 3 is on the ballot out here. and it's just hard to get past your to say anything. And so we, we took and adopted this message of voting with your Bibles open because we felt like, well, this is something a pastor might can say. They might can feel good about saying this. And then it's a whole nother thing to unpack this for a believer to understand. Okay, what does that mean when I'm voting for city council or county commission? you know, what does it mean to vote with my bibles open?
Jenna Ellis Yeah. And what does that mean in a practical application? Because when we're talking about issues, I Think that's little more direct because as you mentioned in the article, marriage, gender, abortion, religious liberty, even fiscal policy, the, the economic capitalism versus socialism. I mean, those are pretty clear issues that Christians, I think, have our minds wrapped around. And we, and we understand that. But when we have to defend potentially other votes for individuals that may not have, you know, the best personal history, or someone suggests, like, let's just take the example out of Texas, Texas saying, okay, James Talarico versus Ken Paxton. And a Christian says, well, how do I defend scripturally and biblically if I wanted to vote for Ken Paxton? Because, you know, he's the Republican over the Democrat. We'll just take this as an example. but I don't want to suggest to my fellow believers that I approve of, you know, maybe some of his personal life decisions like, the affairs that have been reported and some of those things. How do Christians answer those types of questions?
Tim Echols You know, I think most people, when they think about voting with their Bible open, the normal vernacular they would use is maybe voting for a person with a moral compass. so that's a word that we've heard used before, and I think it's kind of synonymous to voting with your Bible open. And I often remind people that, you know, that the power of appointments, the number, the sheer number of appointments say that a governor makes, it's into the thousands. And so when, you're looking at who to vote for, I think you always have to think about it's not just that person's moral compass, it's the people that they're going to pick to be judges, to be agency heads, and to run, you know, parts of state government that impact children or families or determine moral issues or policies. so, you know, we've got to look, I think even beyond the single individual at, you know, how is this person, what group is this person going to be in? How are they going to be influenced? Are they going to create policies that reflect scripture? Because, you know, you can take, Jenna, even a person that, that maybe hasn't been, you know, a true conservative on everything, and you, you put them into a group of conservatives as say, a caucus, and all of a sudden now they are under pressure from their own people, their own party people to, you know, to you know, to, to go along with, you know, whatever the particular issue is. And you see Mike Johnson herding cats and trying to, trying to do this. So I think it's, you know, it is, it is bigger than just a single individual's Moral compass, yeah, absolutely.
Jenna Ellis And Proverbs 29 talks about when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule, people mourn. And that tells us a very clear connection between the moral character and the attitude of leaders and the well being of a nation or a state or a city. I mean, talking about all the way down ballot, our local leaders absolutely matter. It's not just the larger offices. And Scripture repeatedly distinguishes between righteous and wicked rulers. Does the Bible give us an objective standard for evaluating political leadership that Christians can look to rather than simply voting according to perhaps our personal preferences or even party preferences? Because it seems like so much of the messaging is just Republican versus Democrat, when clearly that's not the biblical standard.
Tim Echols Well, I mean, the Bible has to be applicable in every, you know, in, in every country with every form of government in, you know, in all times and under all circumstances. So, you know, the difficulty that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego found themselves in, that Nehemiah found himself in, that Esther found herself in, and Scripture is applicable to all of those people in all of those situations. It just looks different in a different culture. So for us in America, with the freedom that we have to choose our own leaders, not every country, they don't get to do that. China, they don't do that. Russia, they don't really do that. it may look like they're doing it, but they're really not choosing their own people. So.
Tim Echols So if the duty to elect people falls to us, then I would say that we have a responsibility, an obligation, rendering to Caesar, if you will. So when Jesus looked at the coin and saw the image, and said, render to Caesar what is Caesar in America, when you render back to the government what it's due, part of that is us voting, us exercising our citizenship. But I think, as I said yesterday on Washington Watch with Tony, we've got too many Christians sitting on the bench. They're not playing offense, they're not playing defense, they're on the bench. And some of them aren't even in the stadium at all. they haven't even left the House yet. And we need those people engaged and helping to pick their leaders. And when you say vote with your Bibles open, you know, you're assuming that you're voting for people with moral character, and regardless of their party. And Jenna, so many, so many offices are nonpartisan. You think about your mayor, your council, people, judges, these people. It's nonpartisan. And you can, you can go and, as a As a believer, commend a person's moral character, their actions, the things that they've done, and give credit where credit is due. When a person takes a strong moral stand, regardless of what maybe their history has been before, if they stand and they do the right thing today, I think we, we want to encourage that. We want to say that, hey, you know, I can stand with you on this. This is good. Let's have some more of that.
Jenna Ellis Absolutely. And churches need to be encouraging biblical civic engagement. And also the church leaders need to equip believers for work of the ministry. And that includes being responsible with our citizen. And that includes, of course, voting, but also to prepare our future leaders. Because we want to have good people to vote for, and we want to have good judges to a point. We want to have good people that we can get into these offices. And so often listeners, will write in and say, and we see this across social media. Well, I'm tired of just voting for the lesser of two evils. Well, what about then, the church being responsible to act their membership? Are you called to be in an elected office, or are you called to a ministry in your profession that you could go and work for an elected official or be appointed as a judge? And you know, Tim, I had mentioned at the top of this segment that you and I go way back and, you know, you were a huge, impact on my life's work and God's calling in my ministry, with your founding of an organization called Team Page, which, for then primarily for homeschool students, but for any students to learn about our system of government. And I got engaged in that program, early on, in my teens that I think about 13, but at 14, went to the judicial portion of that program that taught about what we do in, in the realm of justice and in the courts of law. And I was 14 and knew that I wanted that area of vocation to be my ministry. And I could have never anticipated it in that time. You know, this is back In, I think 1999 was probably when I went to the judicial program. And I could have never imagined what God would do with that calling in that ministry. But because of your stewardship of teaching young people, you have equipped so many more students than just me. but definitely you impacted me, and I appreciate that you have, and I'm grateful that you responded to God's calling in your life to equip other believers now that we can have thriving ministries. And that is a huge part of all of this as well. It's not just about voting and it's not just about being engaged in what we think of as full time ministry, but really using our vocations to have a complete view of citizenship and be responsible in all aspects of government and in these vocations.
Tim Echols Yeah. And if you look at what George Barna has released about kids and their biblical worldview out at Arizona Christian is that only about 4% of young people have a biblical worldview. That should alarm us. we've got to play the long game in this. And I know at frc, Tony Perkins has told me multiple times, tim, you got to think generationally. Do not just think about the next election cycle. You've got to look beyond that. And that's what we're doing with Teen Pack. That's why we met a 13 year old, Jenna Ellis and invited her to continue to grow and get on the leadership ladder in our organization. We just need more of that, Jenna. We need more organizations playing the long game. If you think about who's preparing people to run for office, a lot of our local Republican county chapters, you take Colorado Springs, El Paso county, that's a huge chapter there and it's run by a believer. he's the chair of that El Paso county chapter. We need more Christians getting out there doing the grunt work in their party chapter, if they feel so led, so that they can be quote, groomed to run for political office. Because a lot of these people that wind up running for county commission or state representative, they've been a second vice chair, first vice chair or chair of their local Republican chapter. And that's preparing them, you know, to step into leadership if, if we don't. I can tell you that Muslims are reproducing in big numbers. They are setting up, and you know, they're setting up shop all over the country. They're having an impact.
Jenna Ellis Yeah. So we have got to have an impact. And churches need to be equipping the vocation and ministries of young people to make a difference. And I'm so grateful, Tim, Echols, that you are making a difference at frc. Thank you for all of the work and ministry you've done. His article is in the Washington stand voting with your Bibles open. Follow him on X. As always, you can reach me the AT. Join my team. Jennafr.net PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com afr.
Jenna Ellis engages in a thought-provoking discussion with Troy Miller, president of the National Religious Broadcasters association. They delve into the importance of understanding biblical principles in governance and the role of Christians in civil society, especially in light of the upcoming midterm elections. From the significance of voting with a biblical perspective to the responsibilities of church leaders in equipping congregations for civic engagement, this episode is a call to action for believers to actively participate in shaping the future of America.
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