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The Triumphal Entry Leads Into Biblical Archaeology Discussion
Pastor Jeff Schreve Well, good morning and welcome to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. I want to talk to you today about the triumphal entry, and that's going to be a springboard into my guest who's written a book called the Stones Cry Out. You know, the Bible says in Luke chapter 19 that when Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem, presenting himself as the Messiah of Israel, it says as soon as he was approaching near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, shouting, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. Peace in heaven and glory in the highest. Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, teacher, rebuke your disciples. But Jesus answered, I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out. Well, there's a brand new book out entitled the Stones Cry out, and it's written by my guest, Dinesh d'. Souza. Dinesh was born in Mumbai, India. He came to the United States as an Exchange student in 1978. Graduated from Dartmouth College, served as a policy analyst in the Ronald Reagan White House and a scholar in two prominent think tanks, the American Enterprise Institute and the Hoover Institute at Stanford University. He's a NewSong York Times best selling author who has written books on politics, religion, culture, and economics. he's produced many great documentary films and he has this new book and new film, the Stones Cry Out. Dinesh, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Dinesh D'Souza I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
D’Souza Describes How Archaeology Strengthened His Biblical Confidence
Pastor Jeff Schreve Well, so this all started, this new, love of biblical archaeology started when you went to, to Israel. Is that not right?
Dinesh D'Souza It is right. The backdrop of this is that, when I was in College in the 80s, I was exposed to this, biblical higher criticism. It goes back to the 19th century. and the basic idea here is that the Bible was written hundreds of years later than the events it describes. And therefore the assumption of these higher critics, many of them, by the way, academics in Europe and America, was that the Bible is full of things that are just embellished, made up, myth and legend. so there might be a kernel of fact, but a lot of it just couldn't be trusted as reliable history. and I must say I was somewhat contaminated by all that. By which I mean that I. If you had asked me 10 years ago or 20 years ago, I would have said, you know, I'm a believer, but I think that the theology of the Bible is solid, is inerrant, is inspired. But I would have to admit that the Bible is written by human authors writing it down. And it's possible that they did get some things wrong. And so I would not be shocked to find some of those kinds of errors in the Bible. So again, this is the, this is the kind of background, that I brought to Israel when I went for the first time in 2022. and I was exposed to some of the artifacts of biblical archaeology, and I saw that they authenticated, they corroborated the Bible in some cases down to its minutest detail. This is really what stunned me, because it's not just the major figures in the Bible, but sometimes just some, you know, some cameo appearance, some biblical extra mentioned in two lines and in the book of Isaiah or the book of Jeremiah. And suddenly there he is, confirmed by a small seal impression, you know, used to seal correspondence, and it has his name on it. So I found all of this just, just fascinating. And I said, look, I need to spend a couple of years delving into all this, understanding not just the artifacts themselves, but the underlying reasoning. And that enables one to say, you know, yes, this is biblical Sodom, or yes, we know that Jesus walked here, or, yes, we know that this is a confirmation of the existence of King David. And so this book is the fruit of that, inquiry.
The Noah’s Ark Claim Draws Cautious Archaeological Interest
Pastor Jeff Schreve Well, I love the title, the Stones Cry out. Because Jesus did say that if these become silent, the stones will cry out. And the stones do cry out. And biblical archeology does tell us that, hey, the Bible is true. You know, Dinesh, I love, Romans, chapter three, verse four, God be found true, though every man be found a liar. And, somebody was asking me just today about Noah's Ark. And they said, oh, I heard on the news that they think they've found Noah's Ark. And Ken Ham has, commented on that and he said, I don't think that's it. can you weigh in on the latest findings of this place that they believe could be Noah's Ark?
Dinesh D'Souza Yes, my view on that is cautiously, I mean, interested, agnostic, if you will. I would put it this way. I think where Ken Ham is coming from is, you know, if you have a very ancient, event which by the way, precedes Abraham by a lot, what is the probability that, an ark, a wooden ark, would be preserved over all this time? Isn't it likely that local people, even if there was an ark in the mountains, would likely say, okay, well, I need to build a fence, I need to build a hut, I'll take some of that wood. And so the ark would be sort of, stripped down, and none of it would be preserved. Now, all of that may be the case. So if you had asked me again in the abstract, I would say, you know, the chance of finding the ark is probably 1% very low. But we do have a boat like, shape in the Ararat Mountains, and it does happen to be the correct biblical length. That right there gets your attention, right? Because the, the Bible is oddly specific about the length and the width and the height, 300 cubits, which is about 515ft. And that is precisely the length of this, boat shaped, image, that is embedded in the ground. Now I'm glad that they're doing core drilling because they're going to essentially be sucking material out of the ground. They're going to be able to examine the contents of that material. And the big question to me is quite simply, is it ancient wood? Because if it is ancient wood, then I think you have a worldwide sensation because again, it doesn't by itself prove it's Noah's Ark. But gee, an ark of the right length with remnant wood in the right place, which is the mountains of Ararat, I think you would find an, enormous upsurge of interest at that point.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah.
Evidence, Faith, Skepticism, And The Rise Of Archaeological Discoveries
And you know, Dinesh, you have, the unbelieving world. Sometimes we think, well, if we could find Noah's Ark, if we could find the Ark of the Covenant, then all these people would come on board and say, oh, now I see that the Bible is true, but that's just not the case. Jesus performed miracle after miracle after miracle. And Jon even says in Jon chapter 12, though he performed so many miracles before them, yet they would not believe in him. And so, Adrian Rogers used to say, believe in miracles, but trust in Jesus. The miracles by themselves don't do it.
Dinesh D'Souza Yeah, I'm very struck by the phrase in the Bible which says, so they are without excuse. M. And, what I think that means for our time is this. And that is that in our secular age, there are going to be people who say, I don't believe because there's not enough evidence. the great philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote, a book about 100 years ago now. It was called why I Am Not a Christian. and in that book he says that somebody once asked him, professor, Russell, if you die and you find yourself before God, what would you say to him? And Russell goes, I would say to him, sir, you failed to provide me with enough evidence. So this is the kind of pompous pose of the skeptic, which is, I don't see the evidence. Right. So I think it's very interesting that God in our time is choosing this, period in which to unearth all this archaeological evidence. I mean, the field itself goes back 150 years, but from about 1850 to 1948, maybe 10% of the artifacts. So a couple of important findings, to be sure. 1948 to 2000, maybe 30%. So an increase in the volume of archeological discovery, but the year 2000 to now, the most. So a kind of increasing or escalating pace of archeological discovery. So I think that's highly significant, that the stones are crying out more and more urgently now.
Archaeological Fieldwork Reveals Small Finds With Historical Significance
Pastor Jeff Schreve You know, when Indiana Jones came out, back in the day, everybody was excited about archaeology. oh, that's just so exciting, so fun. Those digs are kind of slow and, hot, and there's nothing glamorous about that. Finding this stuff is pretty exciting, but looking for it is not so exciting. In your research for this, Dinesh, did you go on any digs?
Dinesh D'Souza Yeah, I observed them. I wasn't really part of the dig itself, but I've been to multiple digs, mainly in the City of David, which is one of the most fertile areas of archaeological discovery. Now, even before Indiana Jones came out, I was, as a young man, a fan of these Agatha Christie novels. And people forget that she was. She was married to an archaeologist, and so she wrote detective, novels, with titles like Death on the Nile or Death in Mesopotamia. And typically these novels are against the spectacular backdrop of these megalithic structures, you know, the pyramids and so on. Now, interestingly, a lot of archaeological work is not glamorous like that. It is sifting through mud looking for a tiny clay seal. And, the clay seal is then dated to the 6th or the 8th century BC and sometimes even the archaeologist doesn't know what the name on the seal is because these seals were used to secure correspondence, and the correspondence is lost. But, the clay hardens the seal, impression is preserved, and it'll take a couple more years for some other guy to look at this seal. It's now sitting in some academic department or in a museum, and they go, hey, that guy's in the book of Isaiah or that guy's in the book of Jeremiah. And then everybody goes running to take a look. And this, biblical extra or minor character is now suddenly, enters the pages of history via the pathway of archaeology. So, I find all of this, bottomlessly fascinating because I would not have expected this kind of biblical corroboration, particularly for events that go very far back in time. You know, Abraham was a nomad. He didn't have a house. He moved around in tents. he had cattle. how do you expect to find the footsteps of Abraham? And yet. I think we can.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah.
The Tel Dan Inscription And The Layered Cities Of Israel
Well, as you, toured Israel, I'm assuming you went to Dan and you saw the inscription, there way in the northern part. that's got to be one of the oldest, archeological relics, that is there in Israel. That was really cool when I saw that some years ago.
Dinesh D'Souza Yeah, that's something that, it is eerie, isn't it, to stand there and go, basically, Abraham was standing a few feet from me. He saw this exact gate. and, I'm also excited when this was back to the 1990s, when the Tel Dan Stele, the Tel Dan Victory monument, came out of the ground, confirming for the first time, beyond a doubt, the existence of King David. that had been, The skeptics had portrayed King David as a mythical character. He's a bit like King Arthur. And sure, the stories are interesting and maybe some moral lessons can be drawn from them, but we. We don't really know if there was a King David. Well, now we do. There was a King David. There was a House of David, a Davidic dynasty. And I think it's also accurate to say that the archeologist Eilat Mazar has found King David's palace.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Dinesh, in your research, I think for a lot of listeners, they wonder why the ancients always just built on top of, of existing cities. Why did they not level it seems like it would be a lot of work, a lot more work to build on top of a city than to just start from scratch again.
Dinesh D'Souza Well, all over Israel and beyond Israel, you see these mounds that are called, in archaeology that are called a, tell or tells. And they are kind of a layer cake of civilizations building one on top of the other. Now I think the reason for this is because by and large cities were initially established in very convenient locations next to bodies of water and in areas where the temperature was conducive to growing crops and having a sort of productive, existence. Now, when those cities got conquered or invaded, I think that there was a desire to rebuild, like right here, because obviously this is the, this is a kind of propitious or favorable location. and so they did the simple thing, which is they just built on top of it. And so you have these artificial hills. And it's in fact a little tricky for the archaeologists because if you excavate one layer, you run the risk of destroying the other layers. And so it's almost like you got to decide which layer you want to excavate at the risk of losing some archeological materials from the other layers.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah.
Program Break And A Sponsorship Message Before The Interview Resumes
Well, we're talking to, prolific author and filmmaker Dinesh d'. Souza. And his new book is called the Stones Cry Out. You're listening to Real Truth for today here on American Family Radio. I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve. We'll be right back.
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This is Real Truth for Today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast page at. Now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dinesh d' Souza about his new book, the Stones Cry Out.
D’Souza Discusses Political Criticism And His Family’s Public Life
Okay, Dinesh, before we get into, more questions about your new book, I gotta ask you, you have been the target of many, Democrats who really don't like you because you expose their fraud and hypocrisy. they come at you with a vengeance. You're one of the few immigrants they don't like. You and Christopher Columbus. But, how have you handled that over the years?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, I gotta say that this may be a perversity of my personality because I don't mind it. I actually kind of like it. someone once said that sort of taking me on is a bit like wrestling with a pig because not only does it get everyone dirty, but the pig likes it. And I think that, my wife sometimes goes, dinesh, you're not a normal person because you don't seem to get flustered or phased when people call you all these horrible and vile names and in some cases even try to go after you in various ways. I guess part of it is I've become used to it. It goes back to my college days and back to the Reagan years. So, it's something that I now take to be part of the give and take of politics. And, you know, I'm also trying to kind of, my son in law is a congressman in Dallas. Brandon Gill. Oh,
Pastor Jeff Schreve wow.
Dinesh D'Souza He's very outspoken and very eloquent, very dynamic, and he's starting to get some of the same treatment. and so I'm like, you know, welcome to the family. This is kind of how we do things around here.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yes, Brandon is excellent. I've watched a lot of his videos. He goes after the abortionists and different ones that, you know, their positions just make no sense. No logical sense.
Midterm Outlook And D’Souza’s Assessment Of Trump’s Second Term
Okay, so for our listeners, we're taping this before the midterm elections. And I have to ask you, Dinesh, how do you feel about the midterms?
Dinesh D'Souza I think it's going to be a little bit tough. the, Republicans have not done enough, to show a clear difference from the Democrats. if you claim that you've got a better philosophy, that's going to make the economy Better make people's lives better, bring prices down. And then prices aren't down, at least not in any significant way. Then people go, well, gee, what did I really vote for the last time? And now, the Democrats are terrible, and given a chance, they will open the border. they will spend even more promiscuously than we spend now. So they'll put us in an even deeper economic hole. there's nothing good to be expected, from them. And so I'm hoping that people will realize, well, listen, the Republicans have their issues and they've gotten a little too stuck in, Iran. That's something I supported, but I think it's something that I expect it to be go in, pulverize those bad guys, get back out in two weeks, not drag it out for month upon month upon month. which has unfortunately been the case. So I'm expecting there to be some losses, particularly in the House. I'm certainly hoping Republicans can hold onto the Senate. I think that's a good possibility. But it does mean a kind of, more rough waters for Trump in the second half of the second term.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Would you say Trump has done a good job so far in his second term?
Dinesh D'Souza I would say he's done a very good job on securing the border. That's the number one thing he campaigned on and he has achieved it pretty much from day one, by the way, against many people who said that could not or would not, be done. the administration's also done a lot of other good things. I think there are a lot of good things in, for example, the so called big beautiful bill. I do think that there are crackdowns on terrorism and crime that are very, valuable. I think a lot of the, bad things that were happening under the Democrats, things like routine censorship, for example, on digital platforms, all of that has stopped, but not enough has been done on the economy. young people, for example, not being able to buy homes, interest rates being too high and the cost of gas being too high, which of course makes the cost of other things go up as well. So I would have liked to have seen greater attentiveness to those problems, which are, by the way, soluble problems. It's just that it seems like Trump is like, no, I gotta, you know, I'll do it on my timetable when unfortunately elections set their own timetable.
Trump’s Advisers, Flattery, And D’Souza’s Independent Political Voice
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, how teachable do you think he is? Do you think he listens to people in his inner circle?
Dinesh D'Souza Yes and no. I think that Trump isand, see part of this is a function of being older, of age. Part of it is a function also of, Trump, being in a second term where he's not running for election again. he doesn't need, to listen, as a normal politician, Wood, who wants to be reelected, someone who's, for example, monitoring the polls, monitoring public opinion. What do my constituents think about me? I'm not sure if Trump is doing all those things. now, Trump does listen to a kind of inner circle or coterie of people. My, concern about that group is that Trump is a little bit overly susceptible to flattery. and by that I mean if you think he's the greatest, he tends to think you're the greatest. And, it reminds me actually of something Napoleon once said where he was asked his opinion of one of his generals. And Napoleon goes, I think this guy is amazing. He's a great general. And his, staff told him, well, have you heard the things he's been saying about you? And Napoleon goes, well, yeah, but I thought you asked me my opinion of him and not his opinion of me. So think about that. That shows a certain detachment, that is at once competence and excellence on its own terms, and is not, as vulnerable to just extravagant praise, in the way that I think Trump is.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah. Does he like you?
Dinesh D'Souza Yes, he likes me a lot. In fact, I'm a recipient of a trump pardon circa 2018. and he's a huge fan of my son in law who is a big supporter of Trump's. but I very consciously, in my own work, I do a weekly show called Dinesh. Of course, in my writing, I, keep a certain amount of spectatorial distance precisely because I want to be able to call things as I see them. I want to be able to write independently. I don't want to be seen as some kind of extension of the administration. And of course I'm not.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, that seems like that's a tightrope for sure because, you want to be supportive. But, as a friend of mine said Dinesh, ah, I, like what Trump does. I don't necessarily like what he says.
Dinesh D'Souza well, I do like a lot of things that he says. I probably am not one of these guys who says, oh, the guy needs to stop posting on social media. I think that given the kind of vileness of the left, Trump actually does know how to goad and unsettle those people. And I do think that there's great merit in doing that. Now this doesn't mean, I approve of everything that Trump says, but it does mean that I think that this kind of giving it back to them in their own coin is something that Trump specializes in. And he's actually really good at it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve He is very good at that.
Comparing Reagan’s Conciliatory Style With Trump’s Political Environment
Just one more question before we get back to the book. So you knew Ronald Reagan. You worked for Ronald Reagan. How would Ronald Reagan do, Trump's position, would he handle that? I mean, obviously he was a lot more magnanimous and winsome in his personality. He wasn't that combative. but do you think that the political climate and culture favors a Trump vs. Ronald Reagan?
Dinesh D'Souza The environment is different, and, so I think that different tactics are called for. Think of it this way. In circumstance A, let's call this the 1980s, you and your neighbor are having a dispute about, where a fence should go between your homes. And so you're going to say, hey, buddy, come on over and let's have a drink and let's talk it over and let's try to figure out who's right. Maybe we can make some sort of compromise and work this out. Scenario B, which is the scenario of the present, a gang of outlaws is encircling your ranch, and their goal is to see, set fire to the place, and ruin you and your family. Your attitude is going to be completely different. So I think, we've seen since Obama kind of gangsterization of the left and of the Democratic Party. This is the type of person who like, celebrates Charlie Kirk's assassination. This is the kind of person who kind of wishes that somebody would take an effective, shot, at Trump. this is a different environment, when Reagan was shot. But of course, he was shot by a kook, Jon Hinckley, whose motives were not even political. and so I think I sometimes wonder what Reagan would have done or been like if he was in this environment. It's, of course, hard to displace a man who is very much a man of the 20th century and really more the middle of the 20th century, and sort of somehow put him into the quarter, of the way down the 21st century. but I think the difference between Reagan and Trump is largely the difference of the very, disparate situations in which the two men found themselves.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, good answer.
The Ark Of The Covenant May Have Been Hidden Before Babylon’s Invasion
Okay, so let's talk about, the stone's cry out. one of the biggest archaeological finds ever. If they could find it, would be the Ark of the Covenant. people have said, I heard this in seminary. Well, it had to have been destroyed by the Babylonians, because otherwise they would have taken it to Babylon. others say, well, it went to Ethiopia and they knew that the Babylonians were coming and they preserved that. what's your take on the Ark of the Covenant? Obviously, it wouldn't have been something that somebody would have wanted necessarily to destroy because it was so valuable. So what do you think about that?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, what I think about it is this. That think of a bunch of Jews, and they've got the Ark of the Covenant in the Solomonic, temple, and they know the Babylonians are coming. The prophet Jeremiah has been warning about this. The Babylonian siege did not occur overnight. And so what would you do if you were one of those guys? Well, you're not going to just sit there and, and, let them come and take the Ark. You're going to try to hide the Ark, it seems to me. and I think that's probably what the Jews did. Now, where they hid it, is another question. I don't think it most likely went to Babylon because the Babylonians would probably have put it on display as a kind of mark of their achievement, and as kind of booty of what they had captured, in Judea. So somebody hid it. remember, it's a portable object. It's not something, you know, it's not like saying, I'm going to take the walls down, the gold from the walls of the columns of the temple. That's not portable, but the Ark is portable. And, it's essentially the size of a kind of large coffee table. Right. So, I have some friends in Jerusalem who have theories about it. They're like, well, you know, we don't think that they took it very far. We think that the Ark is actually pretty close to the Temple itself. It's just very well hidden. And we think it actually can be found. I treat these theories with a little skepticism. Of course, I would love to see somebody find the Ark. but, I do not think that the Ark was, captured by the Babylonians. otherwise they would have shown it to us.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, I think that would be, one of the greatest finds ever. Like we said earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean everybody's going to put their faith and trust in the Lord. But, it would be hard for them to dispute, so much of what the Bible talks about in the Old Testament. The Ark of the Covenant was huge, and that was a very, very important piece of furniture. It was the whole purpose of the temple was that Presence of God.
Caiaphas’s Ossuary Offers A Tangible Link To The Crucifixion
Well, Dinesh, in all your research and putting this book together, the stones cry out, was there a particular archeological discovery that was may most, endearing to you?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, if I had to just name one off the top of my head, I would pick one from the NewSong Testament. The discovery of the bones of the high priest named Caiaphas. Let's remember this is a, villain of the Bible. A central figure in the drama that leads to Jesus crucifixion. This is the man who actually intimidated Pontius Pilate into granting permission for Jesus to be, executed. this is a critical figure and the Bible just gives him one name, Caiaphas. But we know from the historian Josephus, that he had a first name, Joseph. So he's Joseph Caiaphas. And, digging in the priestly quarter of Jerusalem, this was just a few decades ago, archaeologists find these ossuaries or burial boxes. Now in the first century A.D. when you died, you were buried in a tomb. But to save space, when your body decayed, they would take your bones out and put it in a small box, and put your name on it. And that, of course can be much more easily stored in a cubicle. Takes less space. So archaeologists are looking at these ossuaries. There are about 20 of them, by the way, and one of them is particularly ornate. And it says at the top, Yehoseph bar Qeiyafa. So Yehoseph is Joseph. Bar means son of, and Qeiyafa means Caiaphas. So they open the box and inside are, the bones of a 60 year old man. And it's dated to the first century A.D. which is the time of Jesus. So, wow, you know, who would have expected, you know, you might be lucky enough to find some historical reference, maybe a stone inscription. But think of the power of standing there and looking at the bones of the man who put Jesus up on the cross.
Competing Archaeological Sites And The Destruction Of Sodom
Pastor Jeff Schreve All right, Lots of people are interested in Sodom and Gomorrah. We read about Sodom and Gomorrah. it's a different kind of sin that happened in Sodom and Gomorrah. It wasn't just, the sin of being inhospitable. Because there are probably a lot of cities like that. God didn't rain fire and brimstone on them. But, Dinesh, when we come back from the break, I want you to, to tell us about Sodom and Gomorrah, a city that, many have been looking for. Where is it? Is it totally just obliterated to the point where you can't find it. Is it under the Dead Sea? Many, many scholars have wondered about that. And so I, know that's a chapter in the book. So we want to talk about that when we come back. You're listening to Real Truth for today. I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve, talking to Dinesh d', Souza, prolific authority, filmmaker, podcaster, and his brand new book, his brand new work, the Stones Cry Out. It's about biblical archaeology and how the archaeological studies and research shows and finds show that, hey, these things in the Bible really did take place. Let God be found. True, though every man be found a liar. We'll be right back.
If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dinesh d' Souza about his brand new work, the Stones Cry Out. Okay, Dinesh, as we left off, Sodom and Gomorrah. Lots of, lots of people talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. People don't want to believe that ever existed, that ever happened, but the Bible's pretty clear about that. What does the archaeological research show?
Dinesh D'Souza Sodom and Gomorrah are part of the, five cities of the plain. So it's Sodom and Gomorrah, but there's also Admah and Zeboiim and a place called Zoar. We gotta remember that when Lot fled from Sodom, he went to Zoar, and he lived in a cave up, above the city. Zoar was not destroyed, but the other four cities were destroyed. Now, archaeologists are disputing between two rival sites for these five cities. Everybody agrees that they are on the Dead Sea. Everybody agrees that they are not on the Israel side of the Dead Sea, but on the Jordan side. So this is on the east side, of the Dead Sea. The contest is between those who believe it is at the northeast tip versus the southeast tip. And there's actually good evidence for both. First of all, I should say that both areas were completely reduced to ash. So there's plenty of charred remains burning. So we have to start out, obviously, with sites that were burned by this fire and brimstone. And you can find that in both these sites. Now, the question is, when you look more closely, the biggest evidence for the southern site is this, and that is that, first of all, you've got a place called Babadra which is thought to be Sodom. You've got a place called Numera, which is thought to be Gomorrah. Notice the similarity between the sound of Numera and Gomorrah. Sometimes ancient biblical places, the name gets changed a little bit over time, but it still echoes the old name. And in that vicinity is a third site, third place called Zoara. So Zoara is believed by many people to be ancient Zoar. And, there's, in fact, an invaluable archaeological artifact. It's called the Madaba map. It dates to the 6th century A.D. it was found on the floor of a church. It's a mosaic map that shows the entire holy land. And archaeologists have used it to find many biblical sites that have been lost over the centuries because it's on the Madhaba map. The Madhaba map tells you where to look. And the Madhaba map seems to place Zoar clearly at the southeast end of the Dead Sea. So that's probably the single strongest indication that that's where it is. Now, an archeologist named Steven Collins does not agree. and he has a very interesting reason for not agreeing. He knows the Bible says that Abraham stood on a known location between Beth El and AI, and Abraham could see the smoke from Sodom. So the point is, if you're a biblical archaeologist, you're gonna go stand there and you're gonna say, if I can't see it, that's probably the wrong location, because Abraham was able to see Sodom burning. and, the southeastern, venue for, Sodom and Gomorrah might be too far away for Abraham to have been able to see it. And so there's some good evidence for the northern location, including the fact that this archaeologist named Collins, he has found that, the pottery, in that location has this weird glazed covering over it. and as it turns out, that is the kind of thing that happens to pottery, or any substance, by the way, when it is subjected to thermonuclear heat. when the atomic bombs were tested in the NewSong Mexico desert, the sand on the ground developed this glassy covering. They call it trinitite. And they found trinitite in the northeastern part of the Dead Sea. So, anyway, this is all, to me, immensely fascinating. I don't try to be the ultimate referee, but rather just to show you the arguments for. Against these two rival locations. And I'm hopeful that future archeological work will settle the issue.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Dinesh, when you think about those Five cities. How big a footprint are you talking about?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, we know that Sodom was a large city. Gomorrah was a smaller city. Zoar was probably the smallest, of those three altogether. and, so the actual dimensions of those cities are not given, only the relative dimensions. and in fact, the, biblical Sodom, according to archaeologist Collins, is an archaeological site that is called Tel El Haman, and that is an indication of a large city. and it's also telling that these cities, by the way, were never rebuilt. Normally, cities get rebuilt, right? They get invaded, they get overthrown, and because of their favorable locations, they get reconstructed. But, of course, these cities appear to be cursed in that sometimes they are never rebuilt. Sometimes they're not rebuilt for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Do you see, Dinesh, that the Dead Sea came about as a result of the destruction of the fire and brimstone?
Dinesh D'Souza The theory of, the archaeologist named Collins, Steven Collins, is this, that there was a meteoric or asteroid explosion. The explosion was not on the ground. The meteor didn't hit the Earth. It exploded in the sky and produced immense heat, the heat equivalent to hundreds of, atomic bombs. And that is what the Bible is describing. By fire and sulfur, or fire and brimstone raining down on Sodom and Gomorrah.
Crucifixion Sites, Tomb Evidence, And The Book’s Historical Purpose
Pastor Jeff Schreve Okay, let's shift to the NewSong Testament. one of the things that is, hotly debated is where Jesus was crucified. you have the traditional site, Church of the Holy Sepulchre. My frustration with, what you see when you go to Israel is the Catholics come in and ruin the natural beauty of a place by putting a big, ornate cathedral there. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher is a good example. It's like, it didn't look anything like this. Now, Gordon's Calvary, that looks like. Well, that could be. So in your, studies and in your deliberations there, where do you side?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, let me give you the sort of arguments of this back and forth so we can think about it more clearly. how do you find a site going back, say, 2,000 years? Right? now, it turns out that when Jesus was crucified, the early Christians knew where these sites were, right? They knew where Jesus was born. They knew where he was raised. they knew where he was crucified. They knew where he was buried. And they began to venerate these sites. They began to meet there. They sometimes did pilgrimages to these places. And in the 2nd century AD the Roman Emperor named Hadrian Said, I'm going to stamp out these Christian sites, I'm going to build pagan shrines on top of them and get rid of them. and he did that. but of course what he didn't realize is that by building these pagan shrines, he was marking those sites. So a couple of centuries later, when Constantine converted to Christianity and he sent his mother Helena to go identify the holy site, she knew where to look. She went and found the pagan shrines, pulled them down and built churches in their place. So the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is in fact the traditional site. the problem of course, is that it's one church built on top of another church. So there was an original church built by Constantine in the Constantinian era. Then there's a crusader church that was built in the Middle Ages on top of that, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is built on top of that. So regardless of the kind of architectural defilement or whatever we want to call it, there are in fact rock cut tombs underneath the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Those are dated to the first century A.D. and Constantine actually had one of those tombs marked, as being the actual one where Jesus was buried. I think on the balance that is much more likely to be the actual site. Now in the 20th century, it was wrongly believed that that site, the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, was inside the old City of Jerusalem. Now if was inside the Old City of Jerusalem, it cannot be the correct site because Jesus was crucified. The Bible tells you outside the city. but it turns out that archaeologists discovered that they had misjudged the scale of Jerusalem in Jesus time. Jerusalem in fact, was much smaller than previously thought. And so if you look at the Jerusalem of Jesus Day, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is outside the old city. So this gives you just a feel of the arguments back and forth. The reason that Charles Gordon went searching for an alternative site and found the garden tomb is he knew that there was this objection to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and he goes, okay, well that doesn't work, I'm gonna go find the correct site. and so there are arguments that continue to this day. But I think these days, even a lot of prominent Protestant and evangelical scholars are coming around to the view that, no, the garden tomb actually has better vibes and feels like it is the correct place. but as it turns out historically, the other one is probably the better candidate.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, it is difficult when you Go. And you want to contemplate the crucifixion. you do get a lot better vibe at the garden tomb than you do at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.
Dinesh D'Souza Absolutely. I mean, you have some Ethiopian nuns swinging incense, and you have the whole vill vibe of it is more garish, more baroque, some would say more grotesque. And, I understand all that. but I think what it really comes down to is this. Remember, Jesus was buried in a new tomb. Joseph of Arimathea had a new tomb. He had built it for his family, but his family had not been buried in it yet. the problem with the garden tomb is that the tombs there are actually old Jewish tombs that go back, evidently, to the 6th or 7th century B.C. that means that those are not, Jesus was not buried in an old tomb like that. So you. Part of what you were doing here is we're taking the biblical detail and applying it to the facts on the ground, and we're really looking for an exact match. Right. So similar to Noah's Ark. Right. In other words, when you're measuring the dimensions of Noah's Ark, you need to get pretty close to an exact measurement. You can't say, no, I'm 40ft off, but it's still Noah's Ark because the Bible tells you these are the dimensions of Noah's Ark. So any ark that you find is going to have to meet those dimensions, or it's not Noah's Ark.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Right. Okay, Dinesh, what do you hope that people will walk away, saying about the book after they read it?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, I think that a lot of times the Bible is taught more as a set of parables or morality tales than it is taught historically. I think it's very interesting and important that God chose to reveal himself to us historically through a particular people, Abraham and his descendants. And what my book does is it follows the thread of the Bible. It follows the, great episodes or chapters of the Bible. It unfurls about 100 or more artifacts that support the historicity of the Bible. And I think what's thrilling about it for me is that things that I previously believed solely on the basis of faith can now also be seen to be true, as a matter of fact. So I think it's exhilarating for the believer. We don't need the proof. We are content to believe on faith. But it's great to have it.
Dead Sea Scrolls Confirm The Reliability Of Old Testament Texts
Pastor Jeff Schreve The, Dead Sea Scrolls. We hear a lot about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and people know that term. I don't know if everybody understands what's so significant about the Dead Sea Scrolls, can you share that with us?
Dinesh D'Souza For sure. The Dead Sea Scrolls are important not because of the NewSong Testament, but because of the Old. The NewSong Testament is in very good shape, by which I mean there are thousands of NewSong Testament manuscripts, about 5,000. Some of them are fragments, but some of them are the full manuscript. And when you have 5,000 fragments, it's very easy to eliminate errors. Right. Even if you took one of your books of mine and we had 5,000 people copy it, the 5,000 people may be sixth graders, and they might make a lot of mistakes, but they're not going to make the same mistake. And so if you see a mistake, you just have to look at the other 4,999 copies and you'll know exactly. You can reconstruct the original word for word, and eliminate all mistakes when you have so many copies. The problem was with the Hebrew Scriptures or the Old Testament. The Old Testament comes to an end. The events of the old testament, around 400 B.C. and yet, the, Hebrew Bible that we had before the Dead Sea Scrolls was as late as 1000 AD so 1500 years later than, like, the end of the Old Testament. And so a lot of skeptics were like, how do we know the scribes haven't changed it? they made additions, they made subtractions. How do we know that the Old Testament that we have matches the one that, say, Jesus taught from in the synagogue in Capernaum? So this is the great value of the Dead Sea Scrolls. They date back not just to Jesus time, but a couple of centuries before Jesus. And so, for example, you can take the great Isaiah scroll, which is the entire book of Isaiah, put it on the left side. You can then take the Hebrew Bible from 1000 AD, the book of Isaiah, and put it on the other side, compare them word for word, and you will see that there are no meaningful changes at all. Yeah, there's some differences. There are some, changes of, Oh, there's a difference of a word here and maybe, a punctuation there. But we can have great confidence after the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Hebrew Bible that we have and read now, the Old Testament, is the same one that the Jews of Jesus's time. And before reading.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Amen. Well, Dinesh, thank you so much for being my guest today. This is fascinating to talk to you. The book is called, the Stones Cry Out. Let me encourage you to get a copy. It's a good reference. manual, for preachers to use. You can pepper those illustrations into your sermons, and then just for people to use, to bolster their faith and to just encourage them that, hey, what God says in his Word, you can trust. Well, thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. I'll be with you again next time. God bless you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Hi, I'm Pastor Jeff Schrieve with Real Truth for Today. Hey, did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. That's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain, American Family Radio and specifically this podcast, Real Truth for Today. So please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net
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The Triumphal Entry Leads Into Biblical Archaeology Discussion
Pastor Jeff Schreve Well, good morning and welcome to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. I want to talk to you today about the triumphal entry, and that's going to be a springboard into my guest who's written a book called the Stones Cry Out. You know, the Bible says in Luke chapter 19 that when Jesus entered the city of Jerusalem, presenting himself as the Messiah of Israel, it says as soon as he was approaching near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, shouting, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. Peace in heaven and glory in the highest. Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, teacher, rebuke your disciples. But Jesus answered, I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out. Well, there's a brand new book out entitled the Stones Cry out, and it's written by my guest, Dinesh d'. Souza. Dinesh was born in Mumbai, India. He came to the United States as an Exchange student in 1978. Graduated from Dartmouth College, served as a policy analyst in the Ronald Reagan White House and a scholar in two prominent think tanks, the American Enterprise Institute and the Hoover Institute at Stanford University. He's a NewSong York Times best selling author who has written books on politics, religion, culture, and economics. he's produced many great documentary films and he has this new book and new film, the Stones Cry Out. Dinesh, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Dinesh D'Souza I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.
D’Souza Describes How Archaeology Strengthened His Biblical Confidence
Pastor Jeff Schreve Well, so this all started, this new, love of biblical archaeology started when you went to, to Israel. Is that not right?
Dinesh D'Souza It is right. The backdrop of this is that, when I was in College in the 80s, I was exposed to this, biblical higher criticism. It goes back to the 19th century. and the basic idea here is that the Bible was written hundreds of years later than the events it describes. And therefore the assumption of these higher critics, many of them, by the way, academics in Europe and America, was that the Bible is full of things that are just embellished, made up, myth and legend. so there might be a kernel of fact, but a lot of it just couldn't be trusted as reliable history. and I must say I was somewhat contaminated by all that. By which I mean that I. If you had asked me 10 years ago or 20 years ago, I would have said, you know, I'm a believer, but I think that the theology of the Bible is solid, is inerrant, is inspired. But I would have to admit that the Bible is written by human authors writing it down. And it's possible that they did get some things wrong. And so I would not be shocked to find some of those kinds of errors in the Bible. So again, this is the, this is the kind of background, that I brought to Israel when I went for the first time in 2022. and I was exposed to some of the artifacts of biblical archaeology, and I saw that they authenticated, they corroborated the Bible in some cases down to its minutest detail. This is really what stunned me, because it's not just the major figures in the Bible, but sometimes just some, you know, some cameo appearance, some biblical extra mentioned in two lines and in the book of Isaiah or the book of Jeremiah. And suddenly there he is, confirmed by a small seal impression, you know, used to seal correspondence, and it has his name on it. So I found all of this just, just fascinating. And I said, look, I need to spend a couple of years delving into all this, understanding not just the artifacts themselves, but the underlying reasoning. And that enables one to say, you know, yes, this is biblical Sodom, or yes, we know that Jesus walked here, or, yes, we know that this is a confirmation of the existence of King David. And so this book is the fruit of that, inquiry.
The Noah’s Ark Claim Draws Cautious Archaeological Interest
Pastor Jeff Schreve Well, I love the title, the Stones Cry out. Because Jesus did say that if these become silent, the stones will cry out. And the stones do cry out. And biblical archeology does tell us that, hey, the Bible is true. You know, Dinesh, I love, Romans, chapter three, verse four, God be found true, though every man be found a liar. And, somebody was asking me just today about Noah's Ark. And they said, oh, I heard on the news that they think they've found Noah's Ark. And Ken Ham has, commented on that and he said, I don't think that's it. can you weigh in on the latest findings of this place that they believe could be Noah's Ark?
Dinesh D'Souza Yes, my view on that is cautiously, I mean, interested, agnostic, if you will. I would put it this way. I think where Ken Ham is coming from is, you know, if you have a very ancient, event which by the way, precedes Abraham by a lot, what is the probability that, an ark, a wooden ark, would be preserved over all this time? Isn't it likely that local people, even if there was an ark in the mountains, would likely say, okay, well, I need to build a fence, I need to build a hut, I'll take some of that wood. And so the ark would be sort of, stripped down, and none of it would be preserved. Now, all of that may be the case. So if you had asked me again in the abstract, I would say, you know, the chance of finding the ark is probably 1% very low. But we do have a boat like, shape in the Ararat Mountains, and it does happen to be the correct biblical length. That right there gets your attention, right? Because the, the Bible is oddly specific about the length and the width and the height, 300 cubits, which is about 515ft. And that is precisely the length of this, boat shaped, image, that is embedded in the ground. Now I'm glad that they're doing core drilling because they're going to essentially be sucking material out of the ground. They're going to be able to examine the contents of that material. And the big question to me is quite simply, is it ancient wood? Because if it is ancient wood, then I think you have a worldwide sensation because again, it doesn't by itself prove it's Noah's Ark. But gee, an ark of the right length with remnant wood in the right place, which is the mountains of Ararat, I think you would find an, enormous upsurge of interest at that point.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah.
Evidence, Faith, Skepticism, And The Rise Of Archaeological Discoveries
And you know, Dinesh, you have, the unbelieving world. Sometimes we think, well, if we could find Noah's Ark, if we could find the Ark of the Covenant, then all these people would come on board and say, oh, now I see that the Bible is true, but that's just not the case. Jesus performed miracle after miracle after miracle. And Jon even says in Jon chapter 12, though he performed so many miracles before them, yet they would not believe in him. And so, Adrian Rogers used to say, believe in miracles, but trust in Jesus. The miracles by themselves don't do it.
Dinesh D'Souza Yeah, I'm very struck by the phrase in the Bible which says, so they are without excuse. M. And, what I think that means for our time is this. And that is that in our secular age, there are going to be people who say, I don't believe because there's not enough evidence. the great philosopher Bertrand Russell wrote, a book about 100 years ago now. It was called why I Am Not a Christian. and in that book he says that somebody once asked him, professor, Russell, if you die and you find yourself before God, what would you say to him? And Russell goes, I would say to him, sir, you failed to provide me with enough evidence. So this is the kind of pompous pose of the skeptic, which is, I don't see the evidence. Right. So I think it's very interesting that God in our time is choosing this, period in which to unearth all this archaeological evidence. I mean, the field itself goes back 150 years, but from about 1850 to 1948, maybe 10% of the artifacts. So a couple of important findings, to be sure. 1948 to 2000, maybe 30%. So an increase in the volume of archeological discovery, but the year 2000 to now, the most. So a kind of increasing or escalating pace of archeological discovery. So I think that's highly significant, that the stones are crying out more and more urgently now.
Archaeological Fieldwork Reveals Small Finds With Historical Significance
Pastor Jeff Schreve You know, when Indiana Jones came out, back in the day, everybody was excited about archaeology. oh, that's just so exciting, so fun. Those digs are kind of slow and, hot, and there's nothing glamorous about that. Finding this stuff is pretty exciting, but looking for it is not so exciting. In your research for this, Dinesh, did you go on any digs?
Dinesh D'Souza Yeah, I observed them. I wasn't really part of the dig itself, but I've been to multiple digs, mainly in the City of David, which is one of the most fertile areas of archaeological discovery. Now, even before Indiana Jones came out, I was, as a young man, a fan of these Agatha Christie novels. And people forget that she was. She was married to an archaeologist, and so she wrote detective, novels, with titles like Death on the Nile or Death in Mesopotamia. And typically these novels are against the spectacular backdrop of these megalithic structures, you know, the pyramids and so on. Now, interestingly, a lot of archaeological work is not glamorous like that. It is sifting through mud looking for a tiny clay seal. And, the clay seal is then dated to the 6th or the 8th century BC and sometimes even the archaeologist doesn't know what the name on the seal is because these seals were used to secure correspondence, and the correspondence is lost. But, the clay hardens the seal, impression is preserved, and it'll take a couple more years for some other guy to look at this seal. It's now sitting in some academic department or in a museum, and they go, hey, that guy's in the book of Isaiah or that guy's in the book of Jeremiah. And then everybody goes running to take a look. And this, biblical extra or minor character is now suddenly, enters the pages of history via the pathway of archaeology. So, I find all of this, bottomlessly fascinating because I would not have expected this kind of biblical corroboration, particularly for events that go very far back in time. You know, Abraham was a nomad. He didn't have a house. He moved around in tents. he had cattle. how do you expect to find the footsteps of Abraham? And yet. I think we can.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah.
The Tel Dan Inscription And The Layered Cities Of Israel
Well, as you, toured Israel, I'm assuming you went to Dan and you saw the inscription, there way in the northern part. that's got to be one of the oldest, archeological relics, that is there in Israel. That was really cool when I saw that some years ago.
Dinesh D'Souza Yeah, that's something that, it is eerie, isn't it, to stand there and go, basically, Abraham was standing a few feet from me. He saw this exact gate. and, I'm also excited when this was back to the 1990s, when the Tel Dan Stele, the Tel Dan Victory monument, came out of the ground, confirming for the first time, beyond a doubt, the existence of King David. that had been, The skeptics had portrayed King David as a mythical character. He's a bit like King Arthur. And sure, the stories are interesting and maybe some moral lessons can be drawn from them, but we. We don't really know if there was a King David. Well, now we do. There was a King David. There was a House of David, a Davidic dynasty. And I think it's also accurate to say that the archeologist Eilat Mazar has found King David's palace.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Dinesh, in your research, I think for a lot of listeners, they wonder why the ancients always just built on top of, of existing cities. Why did they not level it seems like it would be a lot of work, a lot more work to build on top of a city than to just start from scratch again.
Dinesh D'Souza Well, all over Israel and beyond Israel, you see these mounds that are called, in archaeology that are called a, tell or tells. And they are kind of a layer cake of civilizations building one on top of the other. Now I think the reason for this is because by and large cities were initially established in very convenient locations next to bodies of water and in areas where the temperature was conducive to growing crops and having a sort of productive, existence. Now, when those cities got conquered or invaded, I think that there was a desire to rebuild, like right here, because obviously this is the, this is a kind of propitious or favorable location. and so they did the simple thing, which is they just built on top of it. And so you have these artificial hills. And it's in fact a little tricky for the archaeologists because if you excavate one layer, you run the risk of destroying the other layers. And so it's almost like you got to decide which layer you want to excavate at the risk of losing some archeological materials from the other layers.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah.
Program Break And A Sponsorship Message Before The Interview Resumes
Well, we're talking to, prolific author and filmmaker Dinesh d'. Souza. And his new book is called the Stones Cry Out. You're listening to Real Truth for today here on American Family Radio. I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve. We'll be right back.
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This is Real Truth for Today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast page at. Now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dinesh d' Souza about his new book, the Stones Cry Out.
D’Souza Discusses Political Criticism And His Family’s Public Life
Okay, Dinesh, before we get into, more questions about your new book, I gotta ask you, you have been the target of many, Democrats who really don't like you because you expose their fraud and hypocrisy. they come at you with a vengeance. You're one of the few immigrants they don't like. You and Christopher Columbus. But, how have you handled that over the years?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, I gotta say that this may be a perversity of my personality because I don't mind it. I actually kind of like it. someone once said that sort of taking me on is a bit like wrestling with a pig because not only does it get everyone dirty, but the pig likes it. And I think that, my wife sometimes goes, dinesh, you're not a normal person because you don't seem to get flustered or phased when people call you all these horrible and vile names and in some cases even try to go after you in various ways. I guess part of it is I've become used to it. It goes back to my college days and back to the Reagan years. So, it's something that I now take to be part of the give and take of politics. And, you know, I'm also trying to kind of, my son in law is a congressman in Dallas. Brandon Gill. Oh,
Pastor Jeff Schreve wow.
Dinesh D'Souza He's very outspoken and very eloquent, very dynamic, and he's starting to get some of the same treatment. and so I'm like, you know, welcome to the family. This is kind of how we do things around here.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yes, Brandon is excellent. I've watched a lot of his videos. He goes after the abortionists and different ones that, you know, their positions just make no sense. No logical sense.
Midterm Outlook And D’Souza’s Assessment Of Trump’s Second Term
Okay, so for our listeners, we're taping this before the midterm elections. And I have to ask you, Dinesh, how do you feel about the midterms?
Dinesh D'Souza I think it's going to be a little bit tough. the, Republicans have not done enough, to show a clear difference from the Democrats. if you claim that you've got a better philosophy, that's going to make the economy Better make people's lives better, bring prices down. And then prices aren't down, at least not in any significant way. Then people go, well, gee, what did I really vote for the last time? And now, the Democrats are terrible, and given a chance, they will open the border. they will spend even more promiscuously than we spend now. So they'll put us in an even deeper economic hole. there's nothing good to be expected, from them. And so I'm hoping that people will realize, well, listen, the Republicans have their issues and they've gotten a little too stuck in, Iran. That's something I supported, but I think it's something that I expect it to be go in, pulverize those bad guys, get back out in two weeks, not drag it out for month upon month upon month. which has unfortunately been the case. So I'm expecting there to be some losses, particularly in the House. I'm certainly hoping Republicans can hold onto the Senate. I think that's a good possibility. But it does mean a kind of, more rough waters for Trump in the second half of the second term.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Would you say Trump has done a good job so far in his second term?
Dinesh D'Souza I would say he's done a very good job on securing the border. That's the number one thing he campaigned on and he has achieved it pretty much from day one, by the way, against many people who said that could not or would not, be done. the administration's also done a lot of other good things. I think there are a lot of good things in, for example, the so called big beautiful bill. I do think that there are crackdowns on terrorism and crime that are very, valuable. I think a lot of the, bad things that were happening under the Democrats, things like routine censorship, for example, on digital platforms, all of that has stopped, but not enough has been done on the economy. young people, for example, not being able to buy homes, interest rates being too high and the cost of gas being too high, which of course makes the cost of other things go up as well. So I would have liked to have seen greater attentiveness to those problems, which are, by the way, soluble problems. It's just that it seems like Trump is like, no, I gotta, you know, I'll do it on my timetable when unfortunately elections set their own timetable.
Trump’s Advisers, Flattery, And D’Souza’s Independent Political Voice
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, how teachable do you think he is? Do you think he listens to people in his inner circle?
Dinesh D'Souza Yes and no. I think that Trump isand, see part of this is a function of being older, of age. Part of it is a function also of, Trump, being in a second term where he's not running for election again. he doesn't need, to listen, as a normal politician, Wood, who wants to be reelected, someone who's, for example, monitoring the polls, monitoring public opinion. What do my constituents think about me? I'm not sure if Trump is doing all those things. now, Trump does listen to a kind of inner circle or coterie of people. My, concern about that group is that Trump is a little bit overly susceptible to flattery. and by that I mean if you think he's the greatest, he tends to think you're the greatest. And, it reminds me actually of something Napoleon once said where he was asked his opinion of one of his generals. And Napoleon goes, I think this guy is amazing. He's a great general. And his, staff told him, well, have you heard the things he's been saying about you? And Napoleon goes, well, yeah, but I thought you asked me my opinion of him and not his opinion of me. So think about that. That shows a certain detachment, that is at once competence and excellence on its own terms, and is not, as vulnerable to just extravagant praise, in the way that I think Trump is.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah. Does he like you?
Dinesh D'Souza Yes, he likes me a lot. In fact, I'm a recipient of a trump pardon circa 2018. and he's a huge fan of my son in law who is a big supporter of Trump's. but I very consciously, in my own work, I do a weekly show called Dinesh. Of course, in my writing, I, keep a certain amount of spectatorial distance precisely because I want to be able to call things as I see them. I want to be able to write independently. I don't want to be seen as some kind of extension of the administration. And of course I'm not.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, that seems like that's a tightrope for sure because, you want to be supportive. But, as a friend of mine said Dinesh, ah, I, like what Trump does. I don't necessarily like what he says.
Dinesh D'Souza well, I do like a lot of things that he says. I probably am not one of these guys who says, oh, the guy needs to stop posting on social media. I think that given the kind of vileness of the left, Trump actually does know how to goad and unsettle those people. And I do think that there's great merit in doing that. Now this doesn't mean, I approve of everything that Trump says, but it does mean that I think that this kind of giving it back to them in their own coin is something that Trump specializes in. And he's actually really good at it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve He is very good at that.
Comparing Reagan’s Conciliatory Style With Trump’s Political Environment
Just one more question before we get back to the book. So you knew Ronald Reagan. You worked for Ronald Reagan. How would Ronald Reagan do, Trump's position, would he handle that? I mean, obviously he was a lot more magnanimous and winsome in his personality. He wasn't that combative. but do you think that the political climate and culture favors a Trump vs. Ronald Reagan?
Dinesh D'Souza The environment is different, and, so I think that different tactics are called for. Think of it this way. In circumstance A, let's call this the 1980s, you and your neighbor are having a dispute about, where a fence should go between your homes. And so you're going to say, hey, buddy, come on over and let's have a drink and let's talk it over and let's try to figure out who's right. Maybe we can make some sort of compromise and work this out. Scenario B, which is the scenario of the present, a gang of outlaws is encircling your ranch, and their goal is to see, set fire to the place, and ruin you and your family. Your attitude is going to be completely different. So I think, we've seen since Obama kind of gangsterization of the left and of the Democratic Party. This is the type of person who like, celebrates Charlie Kirk's assassination. This is the kind of person who kind of wishes that somebody would take an effective, shot, at Trump. this is a different environment, when Reagan was shot. But of course, he was shot by a kook, Jon Hinckley, whose motives were not even political. and so I think I sometimes wonder what Reagan would have done or been like if he was in this environment. It's, of course, hard to displace a man who is very much a man of the 20th century and really more the middle of the 20th century, and sort of somehow put him into the quarter, of the way down the 21st century. but I think the difference between Reagan and Trump is largely the difference of the very, disparate situations in which the two men found themselves.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, good answer.
The Ark Of The Covenant May Have Been Hidden Before Babylon’s Invasion
Okay, so let's talk about, the stone's cry out. one of the biggest archaeological finds ever. If they could find it, would be the Ark of the Covenant. people have said, I heard this in seminary. Well, it had to have been destroyed by the Babylonians, because otherwise they would have taken it to Babylon. others say, well, it went to Ethiopia and they knew that the Babylonians were coming and they preserved that. what's your take on the Ark of the Covenant? Obviously, it wouldn't have been something that somebody would have wanted necessarily to destroy because it was so valuable. So what do you think about that?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, what I think about it is this. That think of a bunch of Jews, and they've got the Ark of the Covenant in the Solomonic, temple, and they know the Babylonians are coming. The prophet Jeremiah has been warning about this. The Babylonian siege did not occur overnight. And so what would you do if you were one of those guys? Well, you're not going to just sit there and, and, let them come and take the Ark. You're going to try to hide the Ark, it seems to me. and I think that's probably what the Jews did. Now, where they hid it, is another question. I don't think it most likely went to Babylon because the Babylonians would probably have put it on display as a kind of mark of their achievement, and as kind of booty of what they had captured, in Judea. So somebody hid it. remember, it's a portable object. It's not something, you know, it's not like saying, I'm going to take the walls down, the gold from the walls of the columns of the temple. That's not portable, but the Ark is portable. And, it's essentially the size of a kind of large coffee table. Right. So, I have some friends in Jerusalem who have theories about it. They're like, well, you know, we don't think that they took it very far. We think that the Ark is actually pretty close to the Temple itself. It's just very well hidden. And we think it actually can be found. I treat these theories with a little skepticism. Of course, I would love to see somebody find the Ark. but, I do not think that the Ark was, captured by the Babylonians. otherwise they would have shown it to us.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, I think that would be, one of the greatest finds ever. Like we said earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean everybody's going to put their faith and trust in the Lord. But, it would be hard for them to dispute, so much of what the Bible talks about in the Old Testament. The Ark of the Covenant was huge, and that was a very, very important piece of furniture. It was the whole purpose of the temple was that Presence of God.
Caiaphas’s Ossuary Offers A Tangible Link To The Crucifixion
Well, Dinesh, in all your research and putting this book together, the stones cry out, was there a particular archeological discovery that was may most, endearing to you?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, if I had to just name one off the top of my head, I would pick one from the NewSong Testament. The discovery of the bones of the high priest named Caiaphas. Let's remember this is a, villain of the Bible. A central figure in the drama that leads to Jesus crucifixion. This is the man who actually intimidated Pontius Pilate into granting permission for Jesus to be, executed. this is a critical figure and the Bible just gives him one name, Caiaphas. But we know from the historian Josephus, that he had a first name, Joseph. So he's Joseph Caiaphas. And, digging in the priestly quarter of Jerusalem, this was just a few decades ago, archaeologists find these ossuaries or burial boxes. Now in the first century A.D. when you died, you were buried in a tomb. But to save space, when your body decayed, they would take your bones out and put it in a small box, and put your name on it. And that, of course can be much more easily stored in a cubicle. Takes less space. So archaeologists are looking at these ossuaries. There are about 20 of them, by the way, and one of them is particularly ornate. And it says at the top, Yehoseph bar Qeiyafa. So Yehoseph is Joseph. Bar means son of, and Qeiyafa means Caiaphas. So they open the box and inside are, the bones of a 60 year old man. And it's dated to the first century A.D. which is the time of Jesus. So, wow, you know, who would have expected, you know, you might be lucky enough to find some historical reference, maybe a stone inscription. But think of the power of standing there and looking at the bones of the man who put Jesus up on the cross.
Competing Archaeological Sites And The Destruction Of Sodom
Pastor Jeff Schreve All right, Lots of people are interested in Sodom and Gomorrah. We read about Sodom and Gomorrah. it's a different kind of sin that happened in Sodom and Gomorrah. It wasn't just, the sin of being inhospitable. Because there are probably a lot of cities like that. God didn't rain fire and brimstone on them. But, Dinesh, when we come back from the break, I want you to, to tell us about Sodom and Gomorrah, a city that, many have been looking for. Where is it? Is it totally just obliterated to the point where you can't find it. Is it under the Dead Sea? Many, many scholars have wondered about that. And so I, know that's a chapter in the book. So we want to talk about that when we come back. You're listening to Real Truth for today. I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve, talking to Dinesh d', Souza, prolific authority, filmmaker, podcaster, and his brand new book, his brand new work, the Stones Cry Out. It's about biblical archaeology and how the archaeological studies and research shows and finds show that, hey, these things in the Bible really did take place. Let God be found. True, though every man be found a liar. We'll be right back.
If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to Dinesh d' Souza about his brand new work, the Stones Cry Out. Okay, Dinesh, as we left off, Sodom and Gomorrah. Lots of, lots of people talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. People don't want to believe that ever existed, that ever happened, but the Bible's pretty clear about that. What does the archaeological research show?
Dinesh D'Souza Sodom and Gomorrah are part of the, five cities of the plain. So it's Sodom and Gomorrah, but there's also Admah and Zeboiim and a place called Zoar. We gotta remember that when Lot fled from Sodom, he went to Zoar, and he lived in a cave up, above the city. Zoar was not destroyed, but the other four cities were destroyed. Now, archaeologists are disputing between two rival sites for these five cities. Everybody agrees that they are on the Dead Sea. Everybody agrees that they are not on the Israel side of the Dead Sea, but on the Jordan side. So this is on the east side, of the Dead Sea. The contest is between those who believe it is at the northeast tip versus the southeast tip. And there's actually good evidence for both. First of all, I should say that both areas were completely reduced to ash. So there's plenty of charred remains burning. So we have to start out, obviously, with sites that were burned by this fire and brimstone. And you can find that in both these sites. Now, the question is, when you look more closely, the biggest evidence for the southern site is this, and that is that, first of all, you've got a place called Babadra which is thought to be Sodom. You've got a place called Numera, which is thought to be Gomorrah. Notice the similarity between the sound of Numera and Gomorrah. Sometimes ancient biblical places, the name gets changed a little bit over time, but it still echoes the old name. And in that vicinity is a third site, third place called Zoara. So Zoara is believed by many people to be ancient Zoar. And, there's, in fact, an invaluable archaeological artifact. It's called the Madaba map. It dates to the 6th century A.D. it was found on the floor of a church. It's a mosaic map that shows the entire holy land. And archaeologists have used it to find many biblical sites that have been lost over the centuries because it's on the Madhaba map. The Madhaba map tells you where to look. And the Madhaba map seems to place Zoar clearly at the southeast end of the Dead Sea. So that's probably the single strongest indication that that's where it is. Now, an archeologist named Steven Collins does not agree. and he has a very interesting reason for not agreeing. He knows the Bible says that Abraham stood on a known location between Beth El and AI, and Abraham could see the smoke from Sodom. So the point is, if you're a biblical archaeologist, you're gonna go stand there and you're gonna say, if I can't see it, that's probably the wrong location, because Abraham was able to see Sodom burning. and, the southeastern, venue for, Sodom and Gomorrah might be too far away for Abraham to have been able to see it. And so there's some good evidence for the northern location, including the fact that this archaeologist named Collins, he has found that, the pottery, in that location has this weird glazed covering over it. and as it turns out, that is the kind of thing that happens to pottery, or any substance, by the way, when it is subjected to thermonuclear heat. when the atomic bombs were tested in the NewSong Mexico desert, the sand on the ground developed this glassy covering. They call it trinitite. And they found trinitite in the northeastern part of the Dead Sea. So, anyway, this is all, to me, immensely fascinating. I don't try to be the ultimate referee, but rather just to show you the arguments for. Against these two rival locations. And I'm hopeful that future archeological work will settle the issue.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Dinesh, when you think about those Five cities. How big a footprint are you talking about?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, we know that Sodom was a large city. Gomorrah was a smaller city. Zoar was probably the smallest, of those three altogether. and, so the actual dimensions of those cities are not given, only the relative dimensions. and in fact, the, biblical Sodom, according to archaeologist Collins, is an archaeological site that is called Tel El Haman, and that is an indication of a large city. and it's also telling that these cities, by the way, were never rebuilt. Normally, cities get rebuilt, right? They get invaded, they get overthrown, and because of their favorable locations, they get reconstructed. But, of course, these cities appear to be cursed in that sometimes they are never rebuilt. Sometimes they're not rebuilt for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Do you see, Dinesh, that the Dead Sea came about as a result of the destruction of the fire and brimstone?
Dinesh D'Souza The theory of, the archaeologist named Collins, Steven Collins, is this, that there was a meteoric or asteroid explosion. The explosion was not on the ground. The meteor didn't hit the Earth. It exploded in the sky and produced immense heat, the heat equivalent to hundreds of, atomic bombs. And that is what the Bible is describing. By fire and sulfur, or fire and brimstone raining down on Sodom and Gomorrah.
Crucifixion Sites, Tomb Evidence, And The Book’s Historical Purpose
Pastor Jeff Schreve Okay, let's shift to the NewSong Testament. one of the things that is, hotly debated is where Jesus was crucified. you have the traditional site, Church of the Holy Sepulchre. My frustration with, what you see when you go to Israel is the Catholics come in and ruin the natural beauty of a place by putting a big, ornate cathedral there. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher is a good example. It's like, it didn't look anything like this. Now, Gordon's Calvary, that looks like. Well, that could be. So in your, studies and in your deliberations there, where do you side?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, let me give you the sort of arguments of this back and forth so we can think about it more clearly. how do you find a site going back, say, 2,000 years? Right? now, it turns out that when Jesus was crucified, the early Christians knew where these sites were, right? They knew where Jesus was born. They knew where he was raised. they knew where he was crucified. They knew where he was buried. And they began to venerate these sites. They began to meet there. They sometimes did pilgrimages to these places. And in the 2nd century AD the Roman Emperor named Hadrian Said, I'm going to stamp out these Christian sites, I'm going to build pagan shrines on top of them and get rid of them. and he did that. but of course what he didn't realize is that by building these pagan shrines, he was marking those sites. So a couple of centuries later, when Constantine converted to Christianity and he sent his mother Helena to go identify the holy site, she knew where to look. She went and found the pagan shrines, pulled them down and built churches in their place. So the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is in fact the traditional site. the problem of course, is that it's one church built on top of another church. So there was an original church built by Constantine in the Constantinian era. Then there's a crusader church that was built in the Middle Ages on top of that, and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is built on top of that. So regardless of the kind of architectural defilement or whatever we want to call it, there are in fact rock cut tombs underneath the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Those are dated to the first century A.D. and Constantine actually had one of those tombs marked, as being the actual one where Jesus was buried. I think on the balance that is much more likely to be the actual site. Now in the 20th century, it was wrongly believed that that site, the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, was inside the old City of Jerusalem. Now if was inside the Old City of Jerusalem, it cannot be the correct site because Jesus was crucified. The Bible tells you outside the city. but it turns out that archaeologists discovered that they had misjudged the scale of Jerusalem in Jesus time. Jerusalem in fact, was much smaller than previously thought. And so if you look at the Jerusalem of Jesus Day, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher is outside the old city. So this gives you just a feel of the arguments back and forth. The reason that Charles Gordon went searching for an alternative site and found the garden tomb is he knew that there was this objection to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and he goes, okay, well that doesn't work, I'm gonna go find the correct site. and so there are arguments that continue to this day. But I think these days, even a lot of prominent Protestant and evangelical scholars are coming around to the view that, no, the garden tomb actually has better vibes and feels like it is the correct place. but as it turns out historically, the other one is probably the better candidate.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Yeah, it is difficult when you Go. And you want to contemplate the crucifixion. you do get a lot better vibe at the garden tomb than you do at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.
Dinesh D'Souza Absolutely. I mean, you have some Ethiopian nuns swinging incense, and you have the whole vill vibe of it is more garish, more baroque, some would say more grotesque. And, I understand all that. but I think what it really comes down to is this. Remember, Jesus was buried in a new tomb. Joseph of Arimathea had a new tomb. He had built it for his family, but his family had not been buried in it yet. the problem with the garden tomb is that the tombs there are actually old Jewish tombs that go back, evidently, to the 6th or 7th century B.C. that means that those are not, Jesus was not buried in an old tomb like that. So you. Part of what you were doing here is we're taking the biblical detail and applying it to the facts on the ground, and we're really looking for an exact match. Right. So similar to Noah's Ark. Right. In other words, when you're measuring the dimensions of Noah's Ark, you need to get pretty close to an exact measurement. You can't say, no, I'm 40ft off, but it's still Noah's Ark because the Bible tells you these are the dimensions of Noah's Ark. So any ark that you find is going to have to meet those dimensions, or it's not Noah's Ark.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Right. Okay, Dinesh, what do you hope that people will walk away, saying about the book after they read it?
Dinesh D'Souza Well, I think that a lot of times the Bible is taught more as a set of parables or morality tales than it is taught historically. I think it's very interesting and important that God chose to reveal himself to us historically through a particular people, Abraham and his descendants. And what my book does is it follows the thread of the Bible. It follows the, great episodes or chapters of the Bible. It unfurls about 100 or more artifacts that support the historicity of the Bible. And I think what's thrilling about it for me is that things that I previously believed solely on the basis of faith can now also be seen to be true, as a matter of fact. So I think it's exhilarating for the believer. We don't need the proof. We are content to believe on faith. But it's great to have it.
Dead Sea Scrolls Confirm The Reliability Of Old Testament Texts
Pastor Jeff Schreve The, Dead Sea Scrolls. We hear a lot about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and people know that term. I don't know if everybody understands what's so significant about the Dead Sea Scrolls, can you share that with us?
Dinesh D'Souza For sure. The Dead Sea Scrolls are important not because of the NewSong Testament, but because of the Old. The NewSong Testament is in very good shape, by which I mean there are thousands of NewSong Testament manuscripts, about 5,000. Some of them are fragments, but some of them are the full manuscript. And when you have 5,000 fragments, it's very easy to eliminate errors. Right. Even if you took one of your books of mine and we had 5,000 people copy it, the 5,000 people may be sixth graders, and they might make a lot of mistakes, but they're not going to make the same mistake. And so if you see a mistake, you just have to look at the other 4,999 copies and you'll know exactly. You can reconstruct the original word for word, and eliminate all mistakes when you have so many copies. The problem was with the Hebrew Scriptures or the Old Testament. The Old Testament comes to an end. The events of the old testament, around 400 B.C. and yet, the, Hebrew Bible that we had before the Dead Sea Scrolls was as late as 1000 AD so 1500 years later than, like, the end of the Old Testament. And so a lot of skeptics were like, how do we know the scribes haven't changed it? they made additions, they made subtractions. How do we know that the Old Testament that we have matches the one that, say, Jesus taught from in the synagogue in Capernaum? So this is the great value of the Dead Sea Scrolls. They date back not just to Jesus time, but a couple of centuries before Jesus. And so, for example, you can take the great Isaiah scroll, which is the entire book of Isaiah, put it on the left side. You can then take the Hebrew Bible from 1000 AD, the book of Isaiah, and put it on the other side, compare them word for word, and you will see that there are no meaningful changes at all. Yeah, there's some differences. There are some, changes of, Oh, there's a difference of a word here and maybe, a punctuation there. But we can have great confidence after the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Hebrew Bible that we have and read now, the Old Testament, is the same one that the Jews of Jesus's time. And before reading.
Pastor Jeff Schreve Amen. Well, Dinesh, thank you so much for being my guest today. This is fascinating to talk to you. The book is called, the Stones Cry Out. Let me encourage you to get a copy. It's a good reference. manual, for preachers to use. You can pepper those illustrations into your sermons, and then just for people to use, to bolster their faith and to just encourage them that, hey, what God says in his Word, you can trust. Well, thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. I'll be with you again next time. God bless you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve welcomes author and filmmaker Dinesh D’Souza to discuss his new book and film, The Stones Cry Out, which explores how biblical archaeology confirms the historical accuracy of Scripture.
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