: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Thursday morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Hope you're having a great morning. I'm looking forward to today. Tonight I got invited to a, special event that Farmers bank is putting on in Magnolia, Arkansas at SAU Southern Arkansas University. And pro, hall of Fame quarterback Kurt Warner is going to be our special guest speaker. And, if you've never seen the movie American Underdog, Thom, you've probably seen that movie American Underdog, about the Kurt Warner story. phenomenal. And, Kurt is a man who loves, the Lord and just, the things that God did in his life and how he brought him to the pinnacle of success in pro football. Really amazing because he was stacking groceries, just a year before the Rams picked him up or a couple years before that. And, so he comes out of nowhere. He's the greatest undrafted player in the history of the NFL. I read. Well, I want to talk today about pastors, politics and the pulpit. And it is a joy, for me to, welcome to the program once again, my good friend Dr. Thom Askel, Pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, the president of Founders Ministries and the chancellor of Founders Seminary. He's a Texas A and M graduate with a BS in sociology. He's got six children. And how many grandchildren Thom got?
Dr. Tom Ascol: 23, with one on the way.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow. No greats?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Not yet, no.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Little soon for that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: 23 grandchildren. Okay. My, preaching professor, Wayne McDill. When I was at Southeast Eastern, he had 27. He couldn't remember all their names.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Oh, wow. Well, I think I can remember their names. I. We pray for them by name every day, so keep some friends.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: He had to. He. Because he didn't see them all the time. Are yours close by?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, they're all in the church right here with me. All the kids and grandkids are serving the Lord or the grandkids, you know, they're in. Faithful in the church. Baptized one of them, and hope to be able to baptize all of them before I die.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. How cool is that? Okay. Thom, you just hit a milestone. 40 years in June pastoring grace, Baptist church. what. What are your thoughts about that? Not very many guys hit that.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Well, it's a testimony of God's grace. It. It really is. As I've reflected on it, you know, over this last year leading up to it and now into the 41st year, there.
: It.
Dr. Tom Ascol: It couldn't happen. Apart from God's grace. He's been so kind to me, to Donna, to our family, in bringing us here and keeping us here. And then the. He's just been so incredibly kind to let me be a part of this church. The people have been forgiving and understanding and patient with me. I mean, I came here as a young man, and, I know I made more mistakes than I can recall or was aware of, even. But, God was faithful. The church was not in good shape when. When I came, and so we had to. There was a lot of hard work those first seven to 10 years of trying to get things to a. A position where we could pursue real spiritual vitality and health, and God's enabled us to do that. You know, there's no church is perfect. The devil always keeps pace. But this is the sweetest place on earth for me, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. And to have the whole family here as well, that's. That's unusual. That's God's kindness.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: It really is that a great, great blessing. Okay. In 40 years tomorrow. you know, churches ebb and flow, and, you're pastorate. You know, you learn things. And then, I. I talked to Jerry Vines just a couple of weeks ago on the program. You know, he retired at 68 from First Baptist Jacksonville, and I asked him, because that seems relatively young in today's world. we. Our president is 80 years old. And so I said, well, Jerry, why did you retire? He said, I, lost my fire for pastoring. Not for preaching, but for pastoring. And he said, you have to in to pastor. How have you kept your fire up for pastoring?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, it's a, That's a great statement, great insight. And, it is true. Part of it has been for me, a large part of it is seeing good men be raised up and recognized by the congregation to shoulder the burden with me. You, know, I'm just, I'm not as resilient as I used to be. I don't have the energy I used to have. I have to be more strategic and wise in how I expend my energy. And there's so many things. The church is growing, and there's so many ways that we see God's kind hand upon us in blessing. And, if I didn't have good quality men serving with me, fellow pastors here, elders in this church, deacons that are faithful men in this church, I couldn't do it. I would have to step back because there's no way that I could, sit back, let things go that I'm not able to do if they weren't being done and carried on by other faithful, godly men that serve with me. So that's been a kindness of the Lord too. We, we have more, we've had good men, good leadership over the years, but we have more faithful godly men who are bought in as pastors and deacons today, than we've ever had at this church. I just, and it just seems like it keeps getting better in that regard. So I'm very encouraged on that front, and that enables me to keep doing what I'm doing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Amen to that. Well, you have a lot of irons in the fire because not only are you pastoring, but then you're the president of Founders Ministry and the chancellor of the Founders Seminary that you started, what, about two years ago? Year and a half ago?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, two years ago. And Founders Ministries has been going on now since 1982 is when it actually began in a prayer meeting there in Texas. But the, ministries continued on in a variety of ways. We started the Institute of Public Theology six years ago, which is now a four year Bible college that offers degrees in theology as well as classical, Christian education and Christian business. And we hope to expand that into the STEM world here in the next few years. so that's been going on. And then two years ago, we started Founder Seminary. So we're in our third semester of classes there. And as you know, Vodi Baucom was the first president of that Seminary, and it was so exciting. We were very excited about, working together. And then God called him home unexpectedly to us. So I was the chancellor, he was the president. I've now become the president and have, committed to the board that as God gives me strength, I will, I will do this for at least five years until we get really solidified. We've got any time you start an institution, there's just lots of bumps and lots of needs right out of the gate. And we're praying and working hard to see the Lord meet those needs and help us to get stabilized. it's amazing what's happened in the few years that we've been going. We've got already. It's a small faculty, but one of the finest faculties that I could have ever imagined. Quality men, men who are sold out. Men who are willing to work for nothing or for far less than they could make financially elsewhere because they believe in the vision of the seminary, which is to train men with sharp minds, warm hearts and steel spines. We want men who will stand in the evil day. And God's doing that. I'm very encouraged.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. along those lines, Thom, what's your attitude these days toward, the SBC seminaries?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Well, you know, I'm, I'm grateful for every good thing that is done in our Southern Baptist seminaries. I think that what we're trying to do at Founders Seminary is something that none of them are able to do. we're committed to training men, elder qualified men, period. And so we don't have, ah, mdiv, ah, slot for women. And we love women, praise God, for women. They can go to the four year, iop, college that we have, but we want to train elder qualified men. That means men that have been tested in their local churches. Our, admissions process is very stiff, and it not. Not many people make it through. Initially we had like 200 or so applicants that initially, when we announced the seminary, blew us away to have that many. And our first class, I think we accepted 20 people or so. And over the course of now, not even two years, we've actually had to dismiss, some students because they weren't cutting it. academically they were fine. They were great. But in terms of other issues, we just felt like brothers. You're not ready for this. and we've worked with their churches that sent them and tried to get them help to, try to correct and cultivate some of the character that's needed. So we're committed to that. Our SBC seminaries will take women and, and, you know, and I, I get it. I mean, that's. They're there, but that's not who we are. We, we have a very laser focused mission that wants to train men who have hope and show promise for pastoral ministry, being strong, well taught. And churchmen. They have to be churchmen. So when they come, they're members of the church here, Grace Baptist Church, for the three or four years that they're going to be with us. And, that's, that's been beneficial as well. We've already seen great fruit for men coming into a church situation that, is largely different from where most of them have come from. And they see a church trying to be simple and clear and, and healthy. we're not perfect by a long shot, but, but we're committed to a certain set of principles, and that's been good for our men to see as well. So, praise God for every good thing the SBC seminaries do. I don't have any stones to throw at them, but they're just not us, and they're not able to do what we're committed to do.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Okay, Thom, when you say steel, spines, what does that look like to you? How do you communicate that to the students?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, that they will not cave in the face of pressure, and they will not be steered by the various cultural movements and religious movements of our day. they're not going to be fragile. You know, we use the language that's come up through the social justice stuff of being antifragile, that is not succumbing to struggle sessions. So whenever you say something. That's right, but it's not popular, all of the crowd that is wanting to steer you and say, oh, how dare you? How could you do this? why in the world would you say this? That's so misogynistic or that's racist or whatever the charge and accusation is that they try to steer people to, to back them down. We don't want our men to be susceptible to that type of manipulation. And so we, we want them to be rock solid, committed to the word of God, to understand what that word says, what it means for their cultural moment in which God's placed them, and to stand firm. I mean, you live through it. I lived through it. What happened in the Summer of Floyd? what happened in the COVID nonsense. Now we're beginning to get more insight. You know, we were all manipulated during those years. You had Evangelical leaders telling us that Black Lives Matter. We had to have a black box in our social media thread or else we don't really care about racism and being, racial, pursuing racial equality. And those same men who told us to shut down our churches are out marching in the streets with Black Lives Matters, and that we just had a failure of leadership across the board. Even our institutions shut down and demanded students and faculty get the, untested experimental inoculations. And you do it as a matter of love. Love your neighbor.
Caroline: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: All of that nonsense was, a revelation to how easily and quickly pastors and churches can be steered by forces that are really evil. They don't love Christ, they don't love God, they hate Christ. And, that's been what's behind a lot of this stuff. And we want to train men who see through that, who are more prepared to stand against that and to test everything by the word of God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. along those lines, Thom, I don't know if you saw this has been in the news, but, no doubt every, every college football fan was watching the game between Texas and Ohio State, and, they made a big deal. We're probably going to run out of time on this. We'll have to pick it up on the next segment. But they made a big deal about Archmanning or about Coach Sark not giving Holly Rowe an interview after the game because they ran out of time and he wanted to sing the Eyes of Texas. Well, they've made some AI memes of that, and there was one where he is. It's obviously fake and he's slapping Holly Rowe. And Arch Manning commented on it at a press conference and said he thought it was funny. He's a kid. I made the comment was when I saw Happy Gilmore and the air conditioning unit fell on the misdemeanor. Missed a lady. I laughed at that. I thought it was funny. Both of those things are not real. but he had to or felt the need to issue an apology. And just in the last minute, or so. Give me your thoughts on that. If he had been your son or your player, would you have told him you need to apologize?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Absolutely not. It's a joke. And we need to be able to laugh at jokes. And whenever they come to you with a struggle session and say, we will make you bow. We will make you conform, that's the time you need to bow your neck. you know, whether or not he should have said it the first, in the first instance. Well, That's a conversation to have, maybe exercise a little more wisdom than that. But there was nothing wrong with that. I mean, he wasn't commending, abusive women at all. And those who tried to twist it into that, they're the very people that we need to stand against and just, laugh at and not let them struggle us into their agenda.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, Amen to that. We're talking to Dr. Thom Askall. Pastors, politics and the pulpit. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to my friend Dr. Thom Asko, Pastor of Grace Baptist Church. He's been there for 40 years. He's also the president of Founders Ministry and the president of Founders Seminary. And, we're talking about pastors, politics and the pulpit. So, Thom, I read this verse today. I tried to read the proverb of the day. So today's the 17th, and it was very appropriate, I think, for where we are as a nation. Proverbs 17:15. He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous. Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord. We live in a society, America is so upside down. We call evil good and good evil. we justify the wicked, we condemn the righteous. People are up in arms over the one juror in the Lindsay Clancy trial. That said, I can't get over the fact that she murdered her three kids and they're upset at him, and they have such compassion and love and understanding for the lady that murdered her children. help us understand what's going on in our society.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, we've. You're exactly right. We're upside down. It's Romans 1, you know, where, we've inverted what God does. Designed to be right and good, and now we call that evil. And so feminism, I think, is the large culprit behind this egalitarianism. This, this idea that there's no authority, that everybody has to be equal. There's been the weaponization of empathy, as a result of that. I mean, God made men and women differently, and he. He wants men. He calls men to be masculine, we're different than women, women to be feminine, they're different from men. The measure of a woman is not a man, and the measure of a man is not a woman. And yet when you erase those boundaries and you try to say, oh, no, no, no, we're all equal, what happens is men want to be, protective of women, and we want to care for them. We don't want to see them abused or harmed. And women are naturally more empathetic, sympathetic than men. God built them that way. Well, what's happened over the last 75 years or longer is that now everything in our culture is feminine coded. So our education system, it's what is right for women, that becomes the standard. And so little boys that act like little boys in grade school, they get in trouble all the time because they're not acting like women. And the code, the norm, is women. Well, what's happened, and we just see it now in spades in this jury and what took place. And I've listened to a couple of the testimonies from some of the women jurors, and it's horrific. It's her. She's such a good woman. She was a good mother. Oh, yeah, except for that time when she murdered her kids. Yes. It's like we just have lost our minds. And, I hate that it's happened. But the fact that we are this way, it's good for the curtains to be pulled back and God to force us to own up to just how bad we actually are as a nation, as a culture, and because we desperately need revival. We need what only God's spirit can do. And pastors like you and me, we have to see that. And we have to be the ones who preach and teach and pray and call upon our people to, see things the way they really are and to humble ourselves and repent before God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Thom, let me ask you this. What do you see just like in the last maybe two or three years in the, let's take the Southern Baptist Convention, do you see pastors getting more bold and more courageous from the pulpit? We have a big midterm election coming up in November. I mean, if things go to the left and the Democrats gain all these seats, I mean, Trump's agenda is gonna come to a grinding halt. It's just gonna be one lawsuit after another and impeachment proceedings and all that stuff, and we'll not get anywhere. that's a disaster in my opinion. the Democrats are wrong on every single moral issue. I mean, they don't have one. It's just across the board. do you see more and more guys stepping up to the plate to call their congregation to say we have to vote for morality and what is right?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, I do. And, it's creating more and more conflict because there's still, some of those who are our so called betters and, and supposed thought leaders, evangelical leaders who are saying, oh, no, no, no, you know, religious freedom and separation, church and state. You can't say that, you can't say that. But more and more pastors are ignoring them and are doing just what you said because they realize, we're in a life and death struggle here for the soul of this nation and for the souls of our neighbors that are being taken downstream by these godless ideologies that have been enshrined now in our political system. And I agree with you, the Democratic Party is pure evil. I reread their platform just several few months ago in the early part of this year, just to remind myself. They enshrine evil in their platform. I don't know how anyone can stand on the Democrat platform and claim to be a Christian. If you're a Christian, you're so weak and needy and immature that you need to be put into a room somewhere so that people can disciple you into the truth and understanding of what you have in Christ. But I doubt very seriously that you could be a very, sincere Christian and stand on the Democrat platform. It's wicked. And like you, I fear that if the midterm elections go left, I think that the repercussions and the whiplash is going to be so severe that what happened to us during Obama, during Clinton, during Biden, will, will look back on those days with fondness, wishing we could return to them, because I believe they will come with a vengeance and the mask will be fully off. And they'll do everything they can to destroy this nation and destroy God's people in this nation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, it is, it's a great concern for us who love our children and our grandchildren and our great grandchildren. What, kind of baton are we going to be able to pass? Not the baton of freedom. If we keep voting? We vote in socialists, we vote in, Islamists. That's what you're going to get.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, that's right. And that's what we have. That's what we have. And they have an agenda, and they're committed to their agenda. And we've been told in our evangelical circles for so long, oh, no, no, no. Our agenda is only the gospel, only preaching, only winning souls to Jesus. Amen. We need to do that. That's primary, there's no doubt. But should we not also work to do the very things we pray for, which is to live quiet, peaceful lives, to pray for the magistrate, that he might fear God and punish evil and be a rewarder of that which, those that do good, in the nation? Shouldn't we want a better platform for our children and grandchildren than we have had to stand on in order to preach the gospel? Look at what God has done through the United States over the course of our history. We're not a perfect nation. When people want to down play or badmouth the United States, I always say, you know, compared to what other nation are you talking about whenever you say how wicked we are.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: compared to Haiti, you know, compared to England. I mean, let's, let's get practical on that. We're not perfect, but God has blessed this nation and he's used this nation to send the gospel around the world. I don't want to squander that. And so, no, we're not a political action committee, and we need to be clear about it. But Jesus Christ is lord over politics. He's lord. Lord over political parties. He's lord over elections. He's lord over magistrates. And we need to be willing to speak his word to every sphere, including the political sphere, and call upon our magistrates, just like Jon the Baptist did. You may not have your brother's wife. We need to be willing to say that and call upon our president, our senators, our congressmen, our governors, our mayors, to fear God and to do that which is right, which God has called them to do in their roles as magistrates.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Thom, let me ask you this. How do you view these things? We have a big race in Texas between James Talarico who is, as Ted Cruz said, I prefer my wolves to not be in sheep's clothing. the things that he said. Six genders, God's non binary. Jesus is a radical feminist. and Ken Paxton, who's got a lot of soiled garments in the closet, so to speak. How do you view that when you have a candidate that, a Ken Paxton that stands up for a lot of right things? To me, he's got. He still has a moral compass, although he might have moral failings in his life versus a guy that has no moral compass.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, you need to believe people when they tell you who they are. And, this is a choice between lesser evils. And that always is the truth in politics. I think one of the things, one of the reasons I started the Institute of Public Theology is because we, as Baptists and Christians, are not as, adept as thinking politically as we ought to be. And Christ is Lord over politics. That means not that the government should run the church or the government should be responsible for preaching the gospel, but the government should be responsible for doing what Christ ordains governments to do. So which one will do it better in the sphere of senators? Will it be, Paxton or Talarico? Well, you don't have to have too many brain cells to believe it'll be Paxton. I mean, Talarico has demonstrated what a character he is. Did you see where his female pastor recently said, well, he's got a lie, but, you know, 50 days he'll get back on track with gender confusion and all this stuff he advocates. I mean, he's wicked. He is wicked. He needs to be called out as wicked. And God's people need to realize they're not voting for a pastor. They're not voting for a, church policy. They're voting for political sanity, for political rightness. And you have a better opportunity with Paxton than you do with Talarico. So you go cast your vote. As a Christian, knowing this is the political world, this is not my church, and I want what's best for the political world so my church can have a better opportunity to flourish, and we can preach the gospel with less encumbration than we would be able to otherwise. We've just lost the ability to reason like that. We need to regain it. Our forefathers understood it far better than we do. But by God's grace, there's a younger generation that is arising that's beginning to get it as well.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Okay, big race in Florida for governor. Ron Desantis hands Down. In my opinion, the best governor in America. And he's proven it year after year, but he's having to step away. How does that affect your state?
Dr. Tom Ascol: That is so sad. I wish he could be king of Florida. You know, I'd vote to change our constitution if we could do it. he's been a great, great leader. Best, best governor maybe in history, but certainly in my lifetime of anywhere, any state. And, Byron Donaldson has recently been endorsed by him. He's the Republican candidate. he's far better than the alternative, and so I'll be voting for him. I just know him a little bit. and, you know, I wish he were more like desantis. he's very much MAGA and lined up with Trump on things and, and, you know, for good and ill. But, but he's far better, far better than the alternative. And so I, I hope that he'll carry on, some of Governor DeSantis's policies. He's indicated that he would. He's not straight on abortion, you know, he thinks abortion is health care. And, I just, I wish those things were different in him, but they're not. So we will take what we can get and realize, that God's been very gracious to us the last eight years and a lot of good's been done, and I hope that we can sustain it going forward.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Thom, when we think about that from a moral perspective, we, you know, for the longest time we said, as it relates to abortion, I'm not going to vote for a pro abortion candidate. But then we get to the place where we don't have any, pro life candidates to the point that we're pro life. And then I guess it is just voting for the lesser of two evils.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, it's always that way. It's always lesser of two evils in politics in my mind. And, you know, we have laws in place. It's a heartbeat bill in Florida. And, you know, I wish it were more. It needs to be more. God willing, it'll become more more. We'll keep working for more. But you.
Caroline: It.
Dr. Tom Ascol: I am not of that group, and there I'm good. That are of this group that they will just sit, sit out. They won't vote for anybody because there's nobody straight on certain issues. And I want them to be straight. And I'm not going to compromise my convictions, but I'm not going to sit it out and let the, the whole thing just be shipwrecked, far Worse than it would be otherwise if I were involved. Because of these key elements, not being there. I want to provide the best opportunity I can to win, to fight. It reminds me of being, you know, in a military conflict. Sometimes you have to do things that are absolutely, beneficial and necessary, that result in, loss. You say, well, we can't win the whole thing in this battle. So we're not going to fight the battle. No, fight the battle. So you have an opportunity, a better opportunity to win the war in. Down the road, rather than just fold up, say, we're going to sit this one out, let the enemy take the ground. we can't do that. I think Christians have done that far too quickly, too easily. And I do believe. And again, there's some principled men who hold that view, and I, I honor that. I respect that. M. But I think a lot of people, just want to wash their hands because, oh, it's just so dirty. There's not a good candidate.
Caroline: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: and we can't afford to do that across the board.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, if everybody does that, then you're gonna get the worst, and you're gonna subjugate your children and grandchildren to disaster, and we will become socialists and communists and then, usher in mass misery. Let me ask you this, Thom. I had Gary, Dr. Gary Frazier on the program. He made this statement, unpopular, statement, but he said, as it relates to the conflict on Iran, he said, I think the only way you can defeat them is to nuke them, because they will not stop. They love death as much as we love life. You can't negotiate with them. All they know is smash mouth. as you think about this conflict, and, nobody wants to use the word quagmire, but it's difficult to defeat an enemy that doesn't care if they kill every 90 million people that live there. How would you advise President Trump moving forward?
Dr. Tom Ascol: I would advise him to listen to J.D. vance and, work for a good solution to extract ourselves from that. I'm sorry we got into that, that, that war, and, you know, I don't pretend to understand everything that's going on, and far wiser heads than mine are looking at this daily, but we, we have interests that need to be taken care of here at home. they're. The oil issue is a big one, but look where we are. We're still in a mess with that. And, I would wish for freedom for the Irani people, but you. That we're talking generations. Islamists think in terms of centuries. You know, we think in terms of months in these types of meals. And there's just. I don't see any way we come out of this in with good, having been accomplished the way that we were wanting it to be accomplished and told it would be accomplished initially.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking, talking to my friend Dr. Thom Ascol. Pastors, politics and the pulpit. And when we come back from the break, we'll open the phone lines 888-589-8840. That's 888-589-8840. If you have a question or a comment for myself or, Dr. Thom Askel, give us a call and let's talk.
: If you'd like to email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today
Dr. Tom Ascol: with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. We're going to open the phone lines 888-5898-840885-89840. We have our guest, Dr. Thom Askel, with us. And if you have a question or comment for Thom, we'd love to hear from you. So, Thom, I want to ask you this. on the X platform, we had a, debate. X is not a great place to have debates, but we had a debate back and forth with Dinesh d' Souza and, some others going back and forth on Calvinism. And, he was saying some things that, got people's dander up in the Calvinist camp. And so back and forth. Jenna Ellis was involved in that. one of the things I have appreciated about you, you and I don't agree on everything with the tulip. That's never been a source of broken fellowship for us. I have never felt any kind of like you look down on me because I don't see it your way. I hope you've never felt that from me. Why do you think that tends to be an issue between the Calvinists and non Calvinists?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Well, if I had to limit it to one word, I'd say pride. you know, we, we want to be right and. Yeah, and I get that. And I, you know, I lament a lot of the. The debate. I saw it and didn't want to jump into it at all. People egged me on to jump into it, but I'm just thinking there's too much at stake. We, we agree on so much. man, let's, let's celebrate what we agree on, what we have in Christ, and let's stand firm against the real enemies of today. And there were a lot of foolish things that I saw said on both sides of that debate that was on X. And I didn't follow it real closely, but I did see a lot or several things came across my feed. But I do think it's pride, you know, I think it's we, we think we get God figured out or we, we know better than others. I like what Jon Newton said one time about, he wrote a letter about a guy that became a Calvinist and he said, you know, don't be like the, the man who was blind and Jesus gave him sight. And so he gets up and he, he picks up a stick and he goes around, starts beating up other blind guys because they can't see. Well, you know, God's taught you something in the Bible that he's shown you truth and he's opened your eyes to truth. Whether you, that that's Calvinism or you think it's something else. Don't go beat people up. You know, it's God, it's God's grace. If I see anything more clearly than my brother, it's by God's grace. If he sees anything more clearly than me, it's by God's grace. We both agree on that. So let's treat each other as brothers in, in this whole quest of trying to, to know more of God and his truth. And I want that for myself and I want to encourage that in others. And I sense that with you. I mean, that's why we get along so well.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right? Well, you know, there's certain things. I was talking to Skip Heitzig about this and, and he would call himself a non Calvinist, although he said, you know, I believe in some of the points of, you know, the five points of Calvinism. He made the statement, he said, well, Jon Calvin is not a Calvinist because he never talked about limited atonement and things like that. But you know, it's like those things are good and godly people can disagree on the finer points of theology. I heard, Jon MacArthur, he said this, repeatedly. obviously the Bible teaches predestination. Jesus said, you didn't choose me, I chose you. And it also teaches you human responsibility. You know, you have to repent and believe on Jesus. So both of those are there and it's, we're not able to understand that.
Dr. Tom Ascol: No, that's right. And I look at Martin Lloyd Jones, who Went to Westminster Chapel with G. Campbell Morgan for five years they co pastored there. G. Campbell Morgan was not, a Calvinist and Lloyd Jones was. And Lloyd, Jones says, yes, but he's a Calvin Calvinist on his knees. And G. Campbell Morgan said, yes, but he's an Armenian when he preaches. You know, I mean, there's truth. There's truth that our brothers have seen, no matter where they camp out. And I don't want to be second to anyone in any truth, whether it's claimed by Armenians or Calvinists. We just ought to be men of truth, and we want to understand the truth. And we know we got little pea brains and they're stained by sin. So when we don't understand is everything as completely as we'd like to, we shouldn't be bent out of shape over it because we're talking about God, his word, his will. And, then we. Our so. So small and tainted with sin that we ought to be humble.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I like that. Well, we're going to the phone lines, and we have Mark on the line from Kentucky. Mark, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Yes, good morning, gentlemen. thanks for taking my call.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, sir.
Caroline: I guess the question that I posed was that do you guys believe, do you think. Are we. Are we in the condition as it talks about in Revelation of the church. Church, being lukewarm?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The church church at Laodicea. Okay. So, Thom, you have. I've, heard Erwin Lutzer. He said he thinks we're more like the church in Sardis. We need to wake up. church in Laodicea. The Lord's not even there. He's knocking on the door to get in. Where do you see us?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, I think they're both right. I mean, we are in a bad, bad way. there's no doubt. at best, in. In so many ways, we just lost it. I mean, we don't fear God in so many of our churches today. We fear people. That's why these struggle sessions work, because we're concerned of what people think, what people will say about us, you know, and rather than fearing God, and I think if. If God were to be so kind to us as to pour out his spirit on us, to open up our understanding better to who God is and with whom we have to do in this life and before whom we will stand one day to give an account that the fear of God would do a lot to awaken us and make us aware of just how desperate our condition is right now.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: M. Yeah. So Mark how do you see it?
Caroline: Well, the second question I have is, and I'm just. We're having conversation here, right? I'm not sure I don't have all the answers. I just have the life experience I have. And speaking out of that, as well as education from folks that I'm. I was, for example, embarrassed my wife and I were when we realized and went to Barton's, you know, biblical civics course where we learned about not only the breadth but the depth of the documentation. That's all then penned into a handy, you know, our Bill of Rights, our Constitution and all that. But who, who was it that England feared the most when all that was developing?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: who was it?
Caroline: Black Royal Regiment.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, the black.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, sure, yeah.
Caroline: And, and, and, and in today's condition. And interestingly I found it very interesting that surprising. They're mostly quote, Presbyterian. Right. So, so the thing is, is that, you know, governments, you know, feared men of God, that m. Were standing bold, standing firm. And when I back to my original question, my first question, and I look and I don't want to call and say and complain and criticize, but I'm saying, you know, we're so far asleep these things are going on. But the fact is, if America falls, and Metaxas talks about this right, in his book Letter to the American Church, if America falls, it falls on the backs of the pastors.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Absolutely. I agree with you, brother, and I am a pastor and that's been a burden of my heart. That's why we started the Institute of Public Theology in founder seminary is to try to train men that will not cave like that. I mean, Mary Queen of Scots said she feared the prayers of Jon Knox more than she feared the, the armies or the, the ships of Spain or something like that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: And where are those men? where are those men? And it's Baptist. I've been encouraged to discover Baptist pastors in our history who were godly, God fearing men like Christopher Blackwood and in Ireland, who was a strong advocate of the, necessity of the, the church to stand and instruct the state. Or like Hillman, who was the president of Mississippi College in the earlier part of the 19th century, who was a member of the National Reform association that advocated for a constitutional amendment acknowledging Christianity. Where are those been today? We need them.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, for sure, Mark. Good stuff. I appreciate the call, my friend. Well, we have, Gary on the line from Tennessee. Gary, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: good morning. Yeah, I want to talk about Iran a minute.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.
Caroline: The Islamic Jihadist, there's no dealing with them. Harrison, they're like a cancer. And, we all know there's no cure for cancer, just a treatment it, or either you cut it out and eradicate it. And, I think as long as they try to deal with them, that cancer is just going to grow. And, I pray for my enemies, and there's millions of Iranians that do not like this, but they're suppressed and.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Caroline: That's just my opinion. So I'll hang up, listen to you answer. Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Thom, you know, the Iranians that I've heard from on interviews and things, they say, hey, as bad as this is, therefore President Trump, they're for America overthrowing this regime. They say it's horrible living here and we need a change.
Dr. Tom Ascol: No, I agree. And I've heard that as well from those who are there. we support a, church that is there. yeah, it's horrible. I mean, it is. It is horrible. But again, we can't. We can't change people's hearts by, bombs and by bullets. It just won't happen. We need to protect what God has entrusted to us for their welfare. And I would want to make every avenue available we could to get the gospel, to those people. And there was a time when that was true. I mean, we had a member of our church that lived in Iran for many, many years before he came here back under the Shah Law. And there were all kind of freedoms and liberties. And you preach the gospel on the streets, and, those days are long gone. And I would love to see what we could do, knowing we cannot do what needs to be done. What needs to be done can only be done by God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?
Dr. Tom Ascol: And we do have his word, his law, his gospel. We are the ones that need to do what we can to get that word to those benighted people.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, we have Sarah on the line from North Carolina. Sarah, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Hi. Thank you. you all mentioned a passage about, you did not choose me. I chose you. And I've not read that passage, but when I heard it, I. I didn't think predestination. I thought about my relationship with my two little boys, how I. They didn't ask to be created, but I. I decided to create them. And I just wanted your input on that interpretation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, well, I appreciate that, Sarah. so that's from Jon 15. you didn't choose me, but I chose you. Thom, what would be your Response to that?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, Jesus is talking to his disciples, there. And as the Creator, the Son of God, I mean he created everybody, but he didn't say that to everybody. He said that to his disciples. And so I think while there's a point that, Sarah has about her children, it might, might come across better if she had adopted those kids. You know, adoptive parents chose the children, the children didn't choose the parents, but they didn't choose all the children. They just chose the ones that are in their family. So, the, the question of election is sometimes a controversial, deep and difficult question to grapple with, but it's worth grappling with because it just reminds us that we're not, all of us are here because of God. None of us owes, we owe our existence to God. We owe everything we are to God. And that certainly includes our salvation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right? And I think we would all agree, Calvinist and non Calvinist salvation is a work of the Lord. We don't do anything to earn our salvation. He saves us. Now, you know what, sirs? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved. Acts 16:31. So, we do that. There is a responsibility. And it says in Second Thessalonians chapter 2 that the people perished because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And so I think where Calvinists and non Calvinists would disagree would be about the invitation. And where does that fall between God and man? And, and it's, I mean, basically it's impossible for us in our finite minds to understand how God works all that together. Amen to that. We have time for, another call. We have Neil, from Texas. Neil, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Well, I appreciate the show today, Dr. Hansel. There was a previous caller, Thom, who mentioned the conflict of war with Iran. And even before he called in, you mentioned the aspect of the oil regarding that war. But I was wondering about the nuclear aspect of it and our dealings with Israel and our involvement with Israel in conflict in Iran. And I'll hand up. Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right, thanks, Neil. the nuclear aspects of that, Thom, obviously that's what President Trump said. That's why we did what we did it.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Right. And I think the bombing initially, you know, to stop their nuclear process, and development, I would say yes, amen to that. I'm not against that at all. But it's the other things that have involved now ground troops and other, elements that we don't even know all of it yet. That's what I don't want to see us get bogged down with.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, it's, it's, it's very difficult because Iran is not Gaza. It, it's a big place. It has a lot of people at 92 million. I learned that from Tucker Carlsen talking to Ted Cruz. I didn't know the population before that, but a, lot of people and, big area. And so, you know, if, if we were really wanting to just defeat them, we would send in troops. We would just, you know, overpower them that way. Trump doesn't want to do that. And it's kind of like, well, how do you win if you're not willing to go all the way right now?
Dr. Tom Ascol: That's what I hate to see us go by half measures on anything.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. All right, Thom. Well, in this last minute, can you just, give your information so that, people can connect with you, especially with founder, seminary?
Caroline: Sure.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah. Well, I'm Pastor Grace Baptist Church, Cape Coral, Florida. You know, true. TrueGraceOfGod.org that's our church website, Founder. Founders.org is the website of Founders Ministries and Founders Seminary.org is the, the, website for the seminary. But if you go to founders.org you'll get to all we have there. we have classes available that anybody can take for like 25 A class. These are our men lecturing on their key subjects, including political theology. So there's a course up there that's like 10 weeks you can take self contained. Encourage you to check that out. We have, we also have a ton of books available, and we love to make books available to pastors and churches. So go to founders.org and see the resources that God's enabled us to produce.
: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Thursday morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Hope you're having a great morning. I'm looking forward to today. Tonight I got invited to a, special event that Farmers bank is putting on in Magnolia, Arkansas at SAU Southern Arkansas University. And pro, hall of Fame quarterback Kurt Warner is going to be our special guest speaker. And, if you've never seen the movie American Underdog, Thom, you've probably seen that movie American Underdog, about the Kurt Warner story. phenomenal. And, Kurt is a man who loves, the Lord and just, the things that God did in his life and how he brought him to the pinnacle of success in pro football. Really amazing because he was stacking groceries, just a year before the Rams picked him up or a couple years before that. And, so he comes out of nowhere. He's the greatest undrafted player in the history of the NFL. I read. Well, I want to talk today about pastors, politics and the pulpit. And it is a joy, for me to, welcome to the program once again, my good friend Dr. Thom Askel, Pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, the president of Founders Ministries and the chancellor of Founders Seminary. He's a Texas A and M graduate with a BS in sociology. He's got six children. And how many grandchildren Thom got?
Dr. Tom Ascol: 23, with one on the way.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow. No greats?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Not yet, no.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Little soon for that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: 23 grandchildren. Okay. My, preaching professor, Wayne McDill. When I was at Southeast Eastern, he had 27. He couldn't remember all their names.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Oh, wow. Well, I think I can remember their names. I. We pray for them by name every day, so keep some friends.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: He had to. He. Because he didn't see them all the time. Are yours close by?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, they're all in the church right here with me. All the kids and grandkids are serving the Lord or the grandkids, you know, they're in. Faithful in the church. Baptized one of them, and hope to be able to baptize all of them before I die.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. How cool is that? Okay. Thom, you just hit a milestone. 40 years in June pastoring grace, Baptist church. what. What are your thoughts about that? Not very many guys hit that.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Well, it's a testimony of God's grace. It. It really is. As I've reflected on it, you know, over this last year leading up to it and now into the 41st year, there.
: It.
Dr. Tom Ascol: It couldn't happen. Apart from God's grace. He's been so kind to me, to Donna, to our family, in bringing us here and keeping us here. And then the. He's just been so incredibly kind to let me be a part of this church. The people have been forgiving and understanding and patient with me. I mean, I came here as a young man, and, I know I made more mistakes than I can recall or was aware of, even. But, God was faithful. The church was not in good shape when. When I came, and so we had to. There was a lot of hard work those first seven to 10 years of trying to get things to a. A position where we could pursue real spiritual vitality and health, and God's enabled us to do that. You know, there's no church is perfect. The devil always keeps pace. But this is the sweetest place on earth for me, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. And to have the whole family here as well, that's. That's unusual. That's God's kindness.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: It really is that a great, great blessing. Okay. In 40 years tomorrow. you know, churches ebb and flow, and, you're pastorate. You know, you learn things. And then, I. I talked to Jerry Vines just a couple of weeks ago on the program. You know, he retired at 68 from First Baptist Jacksonville, and I asked him, because that seems relatively young in today's world. we. Our president is 80 years old. And so I said, well, Jerry, why did you retire? He said, I, lost my fire for pastoring. Not for preaching, but for pastoring. And he said, you have to in to pastor. How have you kept your fire up for pastoring?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, it's a, That's a great statement, great insight. And, it is true. Part of it has been for me, a large part of it is seeing good men be raised up and recognized by the congregation to shoulder the burden with me. You, know, I'm just, I'm not as resilient as I used to be. I don't have the energy I used to have. I have to be more strategic and wise in how I expend my energy. And there's so many things. The church is growing, and there's so many ways that we see God's kind hand upon us in blessing. And, if I didn't have good quality men serving with me, fellow pastors here, elders in this church, deacons that are faithful men in this church, I couldn't do it. I would have to step back because there's no way that I could, sit back, let things go that I'm not able to do if they weren't being done and carried on by other faithful, godly men that serve with me. So that's been a kindness of the Lord too. We, we have more, we've had good men, good leadership over the years, but we have more faithful godly men who are bought in as pastors and deacons today, than we've ever had at this church. I just, and it just seems like it keeps getting better in that regard. So I'm very encouraged on that front, and that enables me to keep doing what I'm doing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Amen to that. Well, you have a lot of irons in the fire because not only are you pastoring, but then you're the president of Founders Ministry and the chancellor of the Founders Seminary that you started, what, about two years ago? Year and a half ago?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, two years ago. And Founders Ministries has been going on now since 1982 is when it actually began in a prayer meeting there in Texas. But the, ministries continued on in a variety of ways. We started the Institute of Public Theology six years ago, which is now a four year Bible college that offers degrees in theology as well as classical, Christian education and Christian business. And we hope to expand that into the STEM world here in the next few years. so that's been going on. And then two years ago, we started Founder Seminary. So we're in our third semester of classes there. And as you know, Vodi Baucom was the first president of that Seminary, and it was so exciting. We were very excited about, working together. And then God called him home unexpectedly to us. So I was the chancellor, he was the president. I've now become the president and have, committed to the board that as God gives me strength, I will, I will do this for at least five years until we get really solidified. We've got any time you start an institution, there's just lots of bumps and lots of needs right out of the gate. And we're praying and working hard to see the Lord meet those needs and help us to get stabilized. it's amazing what's happened in the few years that we've been going. We've got already. It's a small faculty, but one of the finest faculties that I could have ever imagined. Quality men, men who are sold out. Men who are willing to work for nothing or for far less than they could make financially elsewhere because they believe in the vision of the seminary, which is to train men with sharp minds, warm hearts and steel spines. We want men who will stand in the evil day. And God's doing that. I'm very encouraged.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. along those lines, Thom, what's your attitude these days toward, the SBC seminaries?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Well, you know, I'm, I'm grateful for every good thing that is done in our Southern Baptist seminaries. I think that what we're trying to do at Founders Seminary is something that none of them are able to do. we're committed to training men, elder qualified men, period. And so we don't have, ah, mdiv, ah, slot for women. And we love women, praise God, for women. They can go to the four year, iop, college that we have, but we want to train elder qualified men. That means men that have been tested in their local churches. Our, admissions process is very stiff, and it not. Not many people make it through. Initially we had like 200 or so applicants that initially, when we announced the seminary, blew us away to have that many. And our first class, I think we accepted 20 people or so. And over the course of now, not even two years, we've actually had to dismiss, some students because they weren't cutting it. academically they were fine. They were great. But in terms of other issues, we just felt like brothers. You're not ready for this. and we've worked with their churches that sent them and tried to get them help to, try to correct and cultivate some of the character that's needed. So we're committed to that. Our SBC seminaries will take women and, and, you know, and I, I get it. I mean, that's. They're there, but that's not who we are. We, we have a very laser focused mission that wants to train men who have hope and show promise for pastoral ministry, being strong, well taught. And churchmen. They have to be churchmen. So when they come, they're members of the church here, Grace Baptist Church, for the three or four years that they're going to be with us. And, that's, that's been beneficial as well. We've already seen great fruit for men coming into a church situation that, is largely different from where most of them have come from. And they see a church trying to be simple and clear and, and healthy. we're not perfect by a long shot, but, but we're committed to a certain set of principles, and that's been good for our men to see as well. So, praise God for every good thing the SBC seminaries do. I don't have any stones to throw at them, but they're just not us, and they're not able to do what we're committed to do.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Okay, Thom, when you say steel, spines, what does that look like to you? How do you communicate that to the students?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, that they will not cave in the face of pressure, and they will not be steered by the various cultural movements and religious movements of our day. they're not going to be fragile. You know, we use the language that's come up through the social justice stuff of being antifragile, that is not succumbing to struggle sessions. So whenever you say something. That's right, but it's not popular, all of the crowd that is wanting to steer you and say, oh, how dare you? How could you do this? why in the world would you say this? That's so misogynistic or that's racist or whatever the charge and accusation is that they try to steer people to, to back them down. We don't want our men to be susceptible to that type of manipulation. And so we, we want them to be rock solid, committed to the word of God, to understand what that word says, what it means for their cultural moment in which God's placed them, and to stand firm. I mean, you live through it. I lived through it. What happened in the Summer of Floyd? what happened in the COVID nonsense. Now we're beginning to get more insight. You know, we were all manipulated during those years. You had Evangelical leaders telling us that Black Lives Matter. We had to have a black box in our social media thread or else we don't really care about racism and being, racial, pursuing racial equality. And those same men who told us to shut down our churches are out marching in the streets with Black Lives Matters, and that we just had a failure of leadership across the board. Even our institutions shut down and demanded students and faculty get the, untested experimental inoculations. And you do it as a matter of love. Love your neighbor.
Caroline: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: All of that nonsense was, a revelation to how easily and quickly pastors and churches can be steered by forces that are really evil. They don't love Christ, they don't love God, they hate Christ. And, that's been what's behind a lot of this stuff. And we want to train men who see through that, who are more prepared to stand against that and to test everything by the word of God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. along those lines, Thom, I don't know if you saw this has been in the news, but, no doubt every, every college football fan was watching the game between Texas and Ohio State, and, they made a big deal. We're probably going to run out of time on this. We'll have to pick it up on the next segment. But they made a big deal about Archmanning or about Coach Sark not giving Holly Rowe an interview after the game because they ran out of time and he wanted to sing the Eyes of Texas. Well, they've made some AI memes of that, and there was one where he is. It's obviously fake and he's slapping Holly Rowe. And Arch Manning commented on it at a press conference and said he thought it was funny. He's a kid. I made the comment was when I saw Happy Gilmore and the air conditioning unit fell on the misdemeanor. Missed a lady. I laughed at that. I thought it was funny. Both of those things are not real. but he had to or felt the need to issue an apology. And just in the last minute, or so. Give me your thoughts on that. If he had been your son or your player, would you have told him you need to apologize?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Absolutely not. It's a joke. And we need to be able to laugh at jokes. And whenever they come to you with a struggle session and say, we will make you bow. We will make you conform, that's the time you need to bow your neck. you know, whether or not he should have said it the first, in the first instance. Well, That's a conversation to have, maybe exercise a little more wisdom than that. But there was nothing wrong with that. I mean, he wasn't commending, abusive women at all. And those who tried to twist it into that, they're the very people that we need to stand against and just, laugh at and not let them struggle us into their agenda.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, Amen to that. We're talking to Dr. Thom Askall. Pastors, politics and the pulpit. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to my friend Dr. Thom Asko, Pastor of Grace Baptist Church. He's been there for 40 years. He's also the president of Founders Ministry and the president of Founders Seminary. And, we're talking about pastors, politics and the pulpit. So, Thom, I read this verse today. I tried to read the proverb of the day. So today's the 17th, and it was very appropriate, I think, for where we are as a nation. Proverbs 17:15. He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous. Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord. We live in a society, America is so upside down. We call evil good and good evil. we justify the wicked, we condemn the righteous. People are up in arms over the one juror in the Lindsay Clancy trial. That said, I can't get over the fact that she murdered her three kids and they're upset at him, and they have such compassion and love and understanding for the lady that murdered her children. help us understand what's going on in our society.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, we've. You're exactly right. We're upside down. It's Romans 1, you know, where, we've inverted what God does. Designed to be right and good, and now we call that evil. And so feminism, I think, is the large culprit behind this egalitarianism. This, this idea that there's no authority, that everybody has to be equal. There's been the weaponization of empathy, as a result of that. I mean, God made men and women differently, and he. He wants men. He calls men to be masculine, we're different than women, women to be feminine, they're different from men. The measure of a woman is not a man, and the measure of a man is not a woman. And yet when you erase those boundaries and you try to say, oh, no, no, no, we're all equal, what happens is men want to be, protective of women, and we want to care for them. We don't want to see them abused or harmed. And women are naturally more empathetic, sympathetic than men. God built them that way. Well, what's happened over the last 75 years or longer is that now everything in our culture is feminine coded. So our education system, it's what is right for women, that becomes the standard. And so little boys that act like little boys in grade school, they get in trouble all the time because they're not acting like women. And the code, the norm, is women. Well, what's happened, and we just see it now in spades in this jury and what took place. And I've listened to a couple of the testimonies from some of the women jurors, and it's horrific. It's her. She's such a good woman. She was a good mother. Oh, yeah, except for that time when she murdered her kids. Yes. It's like we just have lost our minds. And, I hate that it's happened. But the fact that we are this way, it's good for the curtains to be pulled back and God to force us to own up to just how bad we actually are as a nation, as a culture, and because we desperately need revival. We need what only God's spirit can do. And pastors like you and me, we have to see that. And we have to be the ones who preach and teach and pray and call upon our people to, see things the way they really are and to humble ourselves and repent before God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Thom, let me ask you this. What do you see just like in the last maybe two or three years in the, let's take the Southern Baptist Convention, do you see pastors getting more bold and more courageous from the pulpit? We have a big midterm election coming up in November. I mean, if things go to the left and the Democrats gain all these seats, I mean, Trump's agenda is gonna come to a grinding halt. It's just gonna be one lawsuit after another and impeachment proceedings and all that stuff, and we'll not get anywhere. that's a disaster in my opinion. the Democrats are wrong on every single moral issue. I mean, they don't have one. It's just across the board. do you see more and more guys stepping up to the plate to call their congregation to say we have to vote for morality and what is right?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, I do. And, it's creating more and more conflict because there's still, some of those who are our so called betters and, and supposed thought leaders, evangelical leaders who are saying, oh, no, no, no, you know, religious freedom and separation, church and state. You can't say that, you can't say that. But more and more pastors are ignoring them and are doing just what you said because they realize, we're in a life and death struggle here for the soul of this nation and for the souls of our neighbors that are being taken downstream by these godless ideologies that have been enshrined now in our political system. And I agree with you, the Democratic Party is pure evil. I reread their platform just several few months ago in the early part of this year, just to remind myself. They enshrine evil in their platform. I don't know how anyone can stand on the Democrat platform and claim to be a Christian. If you're a Christian, you're so weak and needy and immature that you need to be put into a room somewhere so that people can disciple you into the truth and understanding of what you have in Christ. But I doubt very seriously that you could be a very, sincere Christian and stand on the Democrat platform. It's wicked. And like you, I fear that if the midterm elections go left, I think that the repercussions and the whiplash is going to be so severe that what happened to us during Obama, during Clinton, during Biden, will, will look back on those days with fondness, wishing we could return to them, because I believe they will come with a vengeance and the mask will be fully off. And they'll do everything they can to destroy this nation and destroy God's people in this nation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, it is, it's a great concern for us who love our children and our grandchildren and our great grandchildren. What, kind of baton are we going to be able to pass? Not the baton of freedom. If we keep voting? We vote in socialists, we vote in, Islamists. That's what you're going to get.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, that's right. And that's what we have. That's what we have. And they have an agenda, and they're committed to their agenda. And we've been told in our evangelical circles for so long, oh, no, no, no. Our agenda is only the gospel, only preaching, only winning souls to Jesus. Amen. We need to do that. That's primary, there's no doubt. But should we not also work to do the very things we pray for, which is to live quiet, peaceful lives, to pray for the magistrate, that he might fear God and punish evil and be a rewarder of that which, those that do good, in the nation? Shouldn't we want a better platform for our children and grandchildren than we have had to stand on in order to preach the gospel? Look at what God has done through the United States over the course of our history. We're not a perfect nation. When people want to down play or badmouth the United States, I always say, you know, compared to what other nation are you talking about whenever you say how wicked we are.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: compared to Haiti, you know, compared to England. I mean, let's, let's get practical on that. We're not perfect, but God has blessed this nation and he's used this nation to send the gospel around the world. I don't want to squander that. And so, no, we're not a political action committee, and we need to be clear about it. But Jesus Christ is lord over politics. He's lord. Lord over political parties. He's lord over elections. He's lord over magistrates. And we need to be willing to speak his word to every sphere, including the political sphere, and call upon our magistrates, just like Jon the Baptist did. You may not have your brother's wife. We need to be willing to say that and call upon our president, our senators, our congressmen, our governors, our mayors, to fear God and to do that which is right, which God has called them to do in their roles as magistrates.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Thom, let me ask you this. How do you view these things? We have a big race in Texas between James Talarico who is, as Ted Cruz said, I prefer my wolves to not be in sheep's clothing. the things that he said. Six genders, God's non binary. Jesus is a radical feminist. and Ken Paxton, who's got a lot of soiled garments in the closet, so to speak. How do you view that when you have a candidate that, a Ken Paxton that stands up for a lot of right things? To me, he's got. He still has a moral compass, although he might have moral failings in his life versus a guy that has no moral compass.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, you need to believe people when they tell you who they are. And, this is a choice between lesser evils. And that always is the truth in politics. I think one of the things, one of the reasons I started the Institute of Public Theology is because we, as Baptists and Christians, are not as, adept as thinking politically as we ought to be. And Christ is Lord over politics. That means not that the government should run the church or the government should be responsible for preaching the gospel, but the government should be responsible for doing what Christ ordains governments to do. So which one will do it better in the sphere of senators? Will it be, Paxton or Talarico? Well, you don't have to have too many brain cells to believe it'll be Paxton. I mean, Talarico has demonstrated what a character he is. Did you see where his female pastor recently said, well, he's got a lie, but, you know, 50 days he'll get back on track with gender confusion and all this stuff he advocates. I mean, he's wicked. He is wicked. He needs to be called out as wicked. And God's people need to realize they're not voting for a pastor. They're not voting for a, church policy. They're voting for political sanity, for political rightness. And you have a better opportunity with Paxton than you do with Talarico. So you go cast your vote. As a Christian, knowing this is the political world, this is not my church, and I want what's best for the political world so my church can have a better opportunity to flourish, and we can preach the gospel with less encumbration than we would be able to otherwise. We've just lost the ability to reason like that. We need to regain it. Our forefathers understood it far better than we do. But by God's grace, there's a younger generation that is arising that's beginning to get it as well.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Okay, big race in Florida for governor. Ron Desantis hands Down. In my opinion, the best governor in America. And he's proven it year after year, but he's having to step away. How does that affect your state?
Dr. Tom Ascol: That is so sad. I wish he could be king of Florida. You know, I'd vote to change our constitution if we could do it. he's been a great, great leader. Best, best governor maybe in history, but certainly in my lifetime of anywhere, any state. And, Byron Donaldson has recently been endorsed by him. He's the Republican candidate. he's far better than the alternative, and so I'll be voting for him. I just know him a little bit. and, you know, I wish he were more like desantis. he's very much MAGA and lined up with Trump on things and, and, you know, for good and ill. But, but he's far better, far better than the alternative. And so I, I hope that he'll carry on, some of Governor DeSantis's policies. He's indicated that he would. He's not straight on abortion, you know, he thinks abortion is health care. And, I just, I wish those things were different in him, but they're not. So we will take what we can get and realize, that God's been very gracious to us the last eight years and a lot of good's been done, and I hope that we can sustain it going forward.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Thom, when we think about that from a moral perspective, we, you know, for the longest time we said, as it relates to abortion, I'm not going to vote for a pro abortion candidate. But then we get to the place where we don't have any, pro life candidates to the point that we're pro life. And then I guess it is just voting for the lesser of two evils.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, it's always that way. It's always lesser of two evils in politics in my mind. And, you know, we have laws in place. It's a heartbeat bill in Florida. And, you know, I wish it were more. It needs to be more. God willing, it'll become more more. We'll keep working for more. But you.
Caroline: It.
Dr. Tom Ascol: I am not of that group, and there I'm good. That are of this group that they will just sit, sit out. They won't vote for anybody because there's nobody straight on certain issues. And I want them to be straight. And I'm not going to compromise my convictions, but I'm not going to sit it out and let the, the whole thing just be shipwrecked, far Worse than it would be otherwise if I were involved. Because of these key elements, not being there. I want to provide the best opportunity I can to win, to fight. It reminds me of being, you know, in a military conflict. Sometimes you have to do things that are absolutely, beneficial and necessary, that result in, loss. You say, well, we can't win the whole thing in this battle. So we're not going to fight the battle. No, fight the battle. So you have an opportunity, a better opportunity to win the war in. Down the road, rather than just fold up, say, we're going to sit this one out, let the enemy take the ground. we can't do that. I think Christians have done that far too quickly, too easily. And I do believe. And again, there's some principled men who hold that view, and I, I honor that. I respect that. M. But I think a lot of people, just want to wash their hands because, oh, it's just so dirty. There's not a good candidate.
Caroline: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: and we can't afford to do that across the board.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, if everybody does that, then you're gonna get the worst, and you're gonna subjugate your children and grandchildren to disaster, and we will become socialists and communists and then, usher in mass misery. Let me ask you this, Thom. I had Gary, Dr. Gary Frazier on the program. He made this statement, unpopular, statement, but he said, as it relates to the conflict on Iran, he said, I think the only way you can defeat them is to nuke them, because they will not stop. They love death as much as we love life. You can't negotiate with them. All they know is smash mouth. as you think about this conflict, and, nobody wants to use the word quagmire, but it's difficult to defeat an enemy that doesn't care if they kill every 90 million people that live there. How would you advise President Trump moving forward?
Dr. Tom Ascol: I would advise him to listen to J.D. vance and, work for a good solution to extract ourselves from that. I'm sorry we got into that, that, that war, and, you know, I don't pretend to understand everything that's going on, and far wiser heads than mine are looking at this daily, but we, we have interests that need to be taken care of here at home. they're. The oil issue is a big one, but look where we are. We're still in a mess with that. And, I would wish for freedom for the Irani people, but you. That we're talking generations. Islamists think in terms of centuries. You know, we think in terms of months in these types of meals. And there's just. I don't see any way we come out of this in with good, having been accomplished the way that we were wanting it to be accomplished and told it would be accomplished initially.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking, talking to my friend Dr. Thom Ascol. Pastors, politics and the pulpit. And when we come back from the break, we'll open the phone lines 888-589-8840. That's 888-589-8840. If you have a question or a comment for myself or, Dr. Thom Askel, give us a call and let's talk.
: If you'd like to email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today
Dr. Tom Ascol: with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. We're going to open the phone lines 888-5898-840885-89840. We have our guest, Dr. Thom Askel, with us. And if you have a question or comment for Thom, we'd love to hear from you. So, Thom, I want to ask you this. on the X platform, we had a, debate. X is not a great place to have debates, but we had a debate back and forth with Dinesh d' Souza and, some others going back and forth on Calvinism. And, he was saying some things that, got people's dander up in the Calvinist camp. And so back and forth. Jenna Ellis was involved in that. one of the things I have appreciated about you, you and I don't agree on everything with the tulip. That's never been a source of broken fellowship for us. I have never felt any kind of like you look down on me because I don't see it your way. I hope you've never felt that from me. Why do you think that tends to be an issue between the Calvinists and non Calvinists?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Well, if I had to limit it to one word, I'd say pride. you know, we, we want to be right and. Yeah, and I get that. And I, you know, I lament a lot of the. The debate. I saw it and didn't want to jump into it at all. People egged me on to jump into it, but I'm just thinking there's too much at stake. We, we agree on so much. man, let's, let's celebrate what we agree on, what we have in Christ, and let's stand firm against the real enemies of today. And there were a lot of foolish things that I saw said on both sides of that debate that was on X. And I didn't follow it real closely, but I did see a lot or several things came across my feed. But I do think it's pride, you know, I think it's we, we think we get God figured out or we, we know better than others. I like what Jon Newton said one time about, he wrote a letter about a guy that became a Calvinist and he said, you know, don't be like the, the man who was blind and Jesus gave him sight. And so he gets up and he, he picks up a stick and he goes around, starts beating up other blind guys because they can't see. Well, you know, God's taught you something in the Bible that he's shown you truth and he's opened your eyes to truth. Whether you, that that's Calvinism or you think it's something else. Don't go beat people up. You know, it's God, it's God's grace. If I see anything more clearly than my brother, it's by God's grace. If he sees anything more clearly than me, it's by God's grace. We both agree on that. So let's treat each other as brothers in, in this whole quest of trying to, to know more of God and his truth. And I want that for myself and I want to encourage that in others. And I sense that with you. I mean, that's why we get along so well.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right? Well, you know, there's certain things. I was talking to Skip Heitzig about this and, and he would call himself a non Calvinist, although he said, you know, I believe in some of the points of, you know, the five points of Calvinism. He made the statement, he said, well, Jon Calvin is not a Calvinist because he never talked about limited atonement and things like that. But you know, it's like those things are good and godly people can disagree on the finer points of theology. I heard, Jon MacArthur, he said this, repeatedly. obviously the Bible teaches predestination. Jesus said, you didn't choose me, I chose you. And it also teaches you human responsibility. You know, you have to repent and believe on Jesus. So both of those are there and it's, we're not able to understand that.
Dr. Tom Ascol: No, that's right. And I look at Martin Lloyd Jones, who Went to Westminster Chapel with G. Campbell Morgan for five years they co pastored there. G. Campbell Morgan was not, a Calvinist and Lloyd Jones was. And Lloyd, Jones says, yes, but he's a Calvin Calvinist on his knees. And G. Campbell Morgan said, yes, but he's an Armenian when he preaches. You know, I mean, there's truth. There's truth that our brothers have seen, no matter where they camp out. And I don't want to be second to anyone in any truth, whether it's claimed by Armenians or Calvinists. We just ought to be men of truth, and we want to understand the truth. And we know we got little pea brains and they're stained by sin. So when we don't understand is everything as completely as we'd like to, we shouldn't be bent out of shape over it because we're talking about God, his word, his will. And, then we. Our so. So small and tainted with sin that we ought to be humble.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I like that. Well, we're going to the phone lines, and we have Mark on the line from Kentucky. Mark, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Yes, good morning, gentlemen. thanks for taking my call.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, sir.
Caroline: I guess the question that I posed was that do you guys believe, do you think. Are we. Are we in the condition as it talks about in Revelation of the church. Church, being lukewarm?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The church church at Laodicea. Okay. So, Thom, you have. I've, heard Erwin Lutzer. He said he thinks we're more like the church in Sardis. We need to wake up. church in Laodicea. The Lord's not even there. He's knocking on the door to get in. Where do you see us?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, I think they're both right. I mean, we are in a bad, bad way. there's no doubt. at best, in. In so many ways, we just lost it. I mean, we don't fear God in so many of our churches today. We fear people. That's why these struggle sessions work, because we're concerned of what people think, what people will say about us, you know, and rather than fearing God, and I think if. If God were to be so kind to us as to pour out his spirit on us, to open up our understanding better to who God is and with whom we have to do in this life and before whom we will stand one day to give an account that the fear of God would do a lot to awaken us and make us aware of just how desperate our condition is right now.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: M. Yeah. So Mark how do you see it?
Caroline: Well, the second question I have is, and I'm just. We're having conversation here, right? I'm not sure I don't have all the answers. I just have the life experience I have. And speaking out of that, as well as education from folks that I'm. I was, for example, embarrassed my wife and I were when we realized and went to Barton's, you know, biblical civics course where we learned about not only the breadth but the depth of the documentation. That's all then penned into a handy, you know, our Bill of Rights, our Constitution and all that. But who, who was it that England feared the most when all that was developing?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: who was it?
Caroline: Black Royal Regiment.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, the black.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, sure, yeah.
Caroline: And, and, and, and in today's condition. And interestingly I found it very interesting that surprising. They're mostly quote, Presbyterian. Right. So, so the thing is, is that, you know, governments, you know, feared men of God, that m. Were standing bold, standing firm. And when I back to my original question, my first question, and I look and I don't want to call and say and complain and criticize, but I'm saying, you know, we're so far asleep these things are going on. But the fact is, if America falls, and Metaxas talks about this right, in his book Letter to the American Church, if America falls, it falls on the backs of the pastors.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Absolutely. I agree with you, brother, and I am a pastor and that's been a burden of my heart. That's why we started the Institute of Public Theology in founder seminary is to try to train men that will not cave like that. I mean, Mary Queen of Scots said she feared the prayers of Jon Knox more than she feared the, the armies or the, the ships of Spain or something like that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Dr. Tom Ascol: And where are those men? where are those men? And it's Baptist. I've been encouraged to discover Baptist pastors in our history who were godly, God fearing men like Christopher Blackwood and in Ireland, who was a strong advocate of the, necessity of the, the church to stand and instruct the state. Or like Hillman, who was the president of Mississippi College in the earlier part of the 19th century, who was a member of the National Reform association that advocated for a constitutional amendment acknowledging Christianity. Where are those been today? We need them.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, for sure, Mark. Good stuff. I appreciate the call, my friend. Well, we have, Gary on the line from Tennessee. Gary, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: good morning. Yeah, I want to talk about Iran a minute.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.
Caroline: The Islamic Jihadist, there's no dealing with them. Harrison, they're like a cancer. And, we all know there's no cure for cancer, just a treatment it, or either you cut it out and eradicate it. And, I think as long as they try to deal with them, that cancer is just going to grow. And, I pray for my enemies, and there's millions of Iranians that do not like this, but they're suppressed and.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.
Caroline: That's just my opinion. So I'll hang up, listen to you answer. Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Thom, you know, the Iranians that I've heard from on interviews and things, they say, hey, as bad as this is, therefore President Trump, they're for America overthrowing this regime. They say it's horrible living here and we need a change.
Dr. Tom Ascol: No, I agree. And I've heard that as well from those who are there. we support a, church that is there. yeah, it's horrible. I mean, it is. It is horrible. But again, we can't. We can't change people's hearts by, bombs and by bullets. It just won't happen. We need to protect what God has entrusted to us for their welfare. And I would want to make every avenue available we could to get the gospel, to those people. And there was a time when that was true. I mean, we had a member of our church that lived in Iran for many, many years before he came here back under the Shah Law. And there were all kind of freedoms and liberties. And you preach the gospel on the streets, and, those days are long gone. And I would love to see what we could do, knowing we cannot do what needs to be done. What needs to be done can only be done by God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?
Dr. Tom Ascol: And we do have his word, his law, his gospel. We are the ones that need to do what we can to get that word to those benighted people.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, we have Sarah on the line from North Carolina. Sarah, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Hi. Thank you. you all mentioned a passage about, you did not choose me. I chose you. And I've not read that passage, but when I heard it, I. I didn't think predestination. I thought about my relationship with my two little boys, how I. They didn't ask to be created, but I. I decided to create them. And I just wanted your input on that interpretation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, well, I appreciate that, Sarah. so that's from Jon 15. you didn't choose me, but I chose you. Thom, what would be your Response to that?
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah, well, Jesus is talking to his disciples, there. And as the Creator, the Son of God, I mean he created everybody, but he didn't say that to everybody. He said that to his disciples. And so I think while there's a point that, Sarah has about her children, it might, might come across better if she had adopted those kids. You know, adoptive parents chose the children, the children didn't choose the parents, but they didn't choose all the children. They just chose the ones that are in their family. So, the, the question of election is sometimes a controversial, deep and difficult question to grapple with, but it's worth grappling with because it just reminds us that we're not, all of us are here because of God. None of us owes, we owe our existence to God. We owe everything we are to God. And that certainly includes our salvation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right? And I think we would all agree, Calvinist and non Calvinist salvation is a work of the Lord. We don't do anything to earn our salvation. He saves us. Now, you know what, sirs? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved. Acts 16:31. So, we do that. There is a responsibility. And it says in Second Thessalonians chapter 2 that the people perished because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And so I think where Calvinists and non Calvinists would disagree would be about the invitation. And where does that fall between God and man? And, and it's, I mean, basically it's impossible for us in our finite minds to understand how God works all that together. Amen to that. We have time for, another call. We have Neil, from Texas. Neil, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Well, I appreciate the show today, Dr. Hansel. There was a previous caller, Thom, who mentioned the conflict of war with Iran. And even before he called in, you mentioned the aspect of the oil regarding that war. But I was wondering about the nuclear aspect of it and our dealings with Israel and our involvement with Israel in conflict in Iran. And I'll hand up. Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right, thanks, Neil. the nuclear aspects of that, Thom, obviously that's what President Trump said. That's why we did what we did it.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Right. And I think the bombing initially, you know, to stop their nuclear process, and development, I would say yes, amen to that. I'm not against that at all. But it's the other things that have involved now ground troops and other, elements that we don't even know all of it yet. That's what I don't want to see us get bogged down with.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, it's, it's, it's very difficult because Iran is not Gaza. It, it's a big place. It has a lot of people at 92 million. I learned that from Tucker Carlsen talking to Ted Cruz. I didn't know the population before that, but a, lot of people and, big area. And so, you know, if, if we were really wanting to just defeat them, we would send in troops. We would just, you know, overpower them that way. Trump doesn't want to do that. And it's kind of like, well, how do you win if you're not willing to go all the way right now?
Dr. Tom Ascol: That's what I hate to see us go by half measures on anything.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. All right, Thom. Well, in this last minute, can you just, give your information so that, people can connect with you, especially with founder, seminary?
Caroline: Sure.
Dr. Tom Ascol: Yeah. Well, I'm Pastor Grace Baptist Church, Cape Coral, Florida. You know, true. TrueGraceOfGod.org that's our church website, Founder. Founders.org is the website of Founders Ministries and Founders Seminary.org is the, the, website for the seminary. But if you go to founders.org you'll get to all we have there. we have classes available that anybody can take for like 25 A class. These are our men lecturing on their key subjects, including political theology. So there's a course up there that's like 10 weeks you can take self contained. Encourage you to check that out. We have, we also have a ton of books available, and we love to make books available to pastors and churches. So go to founders.org and see the resources that God's enabled us to produce.
Pastor Jeff Schreve welcomes Dr. Tom Ascol, pastor of Grace Baptist Church and president of Founders Ministries and Founders Seminary, for a wide-ranging discussion on the role of pastors and Christians in culture and public life. They discuss pastoral leadership, standing firm on biblical truth, humility, the church’s influence in society, and the importance of preparing pastors to remain faithful under cultural pressure. The conversation also addresses political engagement, upcoming elections, moral issues, the conflict involving Iran, and disagreements between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. Listeners are encouraged to stand firmly on God’s Word, think biblically about the world around them, and faithfully represent Christ.
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