Welcome to the Compass, a weekly political commentary
Rick Beggs Welcome to the Compass, navigating the public square together with faith, truth and conviction. Well, happy good Saturday to you. We are so glad you would join us. We, in this instance is Debbie Wuthnow and myself. Debbie is the president of iVoterGuide and VP at, AFA Action. Say hey, Debbie.
Debbie Wuthnow Hey, Rick. So good to be with you and with everybody else this week. It's a great Saturday.
We're gonna talk about something very fun, although can be politically charged
Rick Beggs Well, we're kind of going to take a little step to the side today. We're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna talk about something very fun, although can be politically charged. But, you know, we've been spending our last couple of weeks, Debbie, talking about the questionnaire we do, on iVoterGuide So when people go to our website and they put in their address and they get back their ballot, one of the instant. One of the things that pops up is the opportunity to look and see if any of the candidates have filled out the questionnaire. And, what we take. How many shows did we do, Debbie, on this?
Debbie Wuthnow Oh, my gosh. We may have done five. We did, like, three just on the questionnaire and one on the judges and one on the school boards.
Rick Beggs Yeah. And in the midst of all of that, I'm sure our listeners will remember just because this is so recent, Senator Lindsey Graham died. And, it. It was a shock. It, to everybody. It didn't matter which side of the aisle you were on. You, you know, you always are going to have adversaries out there, but when they all of a sudden are gone, everybody has a little ping in their heart about, somebody going too soon. Of course, in God's economy, nobody's going too soon. He knows how many.
Debbie Wuthnow But we know we're all going eventually. So it's a reminder of our, Yeah, terminals.
Rick Beggs Yeah. How soon it could be.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Even in the death of somebody who was strongly on the aisle, there were positive comments
Rick Beggs Anyway, but, you and I got to talking about the fascination that even in the death of somebody who was, you know, very strongly right on the aisle, there were some really nice things said about him from people on the left.
Debbie Wuthnow Yes, there were.
Rick Beggs Yeah. And do you recall any of those, Debbie, that you would share with us?
Debbie Wuthnow I know there were. I will start by saying not everybody said positive things, but I was very interested.
Rick Beggs That's true.
Debbie Wuthnow By, you know, some of his. He was in the Senate for a long time. Right. And even Joe Biden said, you know, we just. I, mean because they were in the Senate at the same time back when Joe was in the Senate, and he said we disagreed often and sometimes loudly, but I All. I also called him a longtime friend. And, you know, we served together for over a decade and worked closely. So even though, you know, part of the goal of the legislature is to work across the aisle and to get something done when nothing's getting, you know, so that is one of the things you're supposed to do. Kamala Harris said he, was full of wit, energy, and charm and cared deeply about the Senate and the people of his state of South Carolina. You know, it. It warmed my heart that, you know, he's. We're all just people. Right? And even though we may disagree on things, it was encouraging.
Rick Beggs Yeah. I think the. I think in a country like ours that is really shaped by some pretty sharp political division, you know, sometimes we have to remember we're human and they are human, even though we may differ greatly. And that friendship and being civil with one another and even the opportunity maybe to have reconciliation where there's deep disagreement, I find it inviting for my spirit when I see and hear people who have been so m. Vehemently find a different word. you know, sometimes I have struggles with those words who disagree strongly.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs it just warms my heart when. When they do that. But there's a history of this in our country. And, you wrote, along with your staff, you wrote an article not too long ago, several weeks now, because I think it was after the celebration of our 250th anniversary, of the Declaration of Independence. You wrote an article about, Thomas Jefferson and Jon Adams and their friends kind of gonna. Yeah, we're gonna kind of head that way.
Ronald Reagan and Tip o' Neill had a good friendship
But I thought before I let you speak to that a little bit. I remember in my lifetime, I remember a couple odd friendships. I remember back when I was growing up and. And Ronald Reagan and Tip o', Neill, they had a really solid friendship, and they were really against each other philosophically.
Debbie Wuthnow Wasn't Tip like, the opposing party, speaker of the House or something?
Rick Beggs Yes, he was. He was a Democratic speaker of the House. And. And of course, Reagan being president, you know, and sort of the pioneer of modern conservative economics and limited government, Tim o' Neill was really on the other side.
Debbie Wuthnow Was he the speaker when Reagan was president?
Rick Beggs Yeah. okay. But he was a defender of the New Deal, progressive liberalism, and. And was all about social safety nets. And, of course, Reagan was, not for those things, but off stage, where they would maybe tear into each other. There's policies, even at press briefings and congressional sessions and. But they had a really warm personal rapport off the clock. Matter of fact, I think it was o'. Neill. Tip o' Neill said about Reagan. After quote, after six o', clock, we can be friends, but before six o', clock, it's politics. Oh, and. And, and they actually would meet on a regular basis to have a drink or swap jokes.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs And both very funny men. And. And at times it welcomed compromise.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, and it keeps the door discussion on stuff. I mean, you have to see your opponent as a person created in the image of God, just like we all are, to be able to even have that discussion. So I love how they. I mean, just his quote, I'm. He's putting it into the. This is my political box or this is my job, but here is, you know, relationship and let's go have a drink and talk. Because you're a dad and you're, you know, we have things in common. We're all sons and dads and moms and sisters, so we do have things in common. Even if we somehow take away different policy positions. but we still need to keep talking.
Rick Beggs Well, it's how things get done. And I think I remember one of the major legislations that they were able to come together on with Social Security reform. So there is a, good deal behind the scenes that a lot of times we don't get to see because the media doesn't want to project a lot of that.
Talk about the relationship that Scalia had with Ruth Bader Ginsburg
But another one that was just recent and sadly, both of them have passed away. both were supreme, court justices. I don't know if you remember the relationship that Scalia had with Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but talk about some differences. Yeah, I mean, they.
Debbie Wuthnow He's like, known for being Mr. Conservative and she's the exact opposite.
Rick Beggs Right? That's right. Well, he was an originalist. And, and of course, she was real interested in a progressive living constitution and really, big on. On civil rights. But their friendship outside the courtroom, they were famously best of friends. Not just friends. It'd be best of friends.
Debbie Wuthnow How did that happen? To know, I'd be curious. Just fly on a wall.
Rick Beggs Yeah. And I wonder if there. If there's not a movie. There should be a movie, because these are the things that we really should probably prop up and celebrate in our country. Yeah. Yeah.
Debbie Wuthnow As we've lost ability to do that.
Rick Beggs I do remember that they had a, shared love for a couple things. One was opera. I remember even Scalia. I went and saw him speak at an event I was doing in D.C. and he talked a little bit about this, but he talked about their shared love for opera and traveling. Matter of fact, I think they traveled together.
Debbie Wuthnow Really?
Rick Beggs With their spouses. Yes.
Debbie Wuthnow Wow.
Rick Beggs Yeah.
Debbie Wuthnow We have to find common ground, whatever it is.
Rick Beggs Where they rode an elephant together.
Debbie Wuthnow All four of them.
Rick Beggs Talk about. No, I don't.
Debbie Wuthnow I want to see that.
Rick Beggs I guess an Elva is big enough. I do.
Debbie Wuthnow Do.
Rick Beggs I want to do. I don't know. but you know what? I know they had a deep mutual respect for one another, even though they were so opposed to what.
Debbie Wuthnow But that respect is the key word in all of that. Right. Respect them as a person. Yeah.
Rick Beggs Well, it goes back to what you just shared about and that is we are all, we're all image bearers.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs and that's how we really should treat one another. Even though we disagree. And believe me, this isn't common, you know, in just in politics. We got this on our side of the aisle between differences within a party. We know we're seeing it on the left.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah. I was just gonna say there.
Rick Beggs My goodness.
Debbie Wuthnow Exposing that rift.
Rick Beggs Yeah. Especially with the, the socialism that is really crept in big time. Yeah. Into the Democratic Party. But. But if you take that and see it on the right as well, we have some real fragmented differences whether it's, where we stand on, on life.
Rick Beggs You know, where we stand on the border. And so in our own group. But let's take it farther. This can happen in our families.
Debbie Wuthnow Oh, you're metal.
Rick Beggs I know. I've gotten nosy now. this is. But even, even harder to take and watch is how a lot of times it destroys churches over really silly things.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, you know, not just theology. That's how we ended up with all these denominations is that they find something to disagree over. It could be the music, it could be, you know, the role of the Holy Spirit or with the spiritual gifts, whatever it is. And you know, if you look, they all kind of keep branching off and it comes back to some dispute they couldn't solve, couldn't reconcile.
Rick Beggs It reminds me of a huge story that I would tell at times, especially, you know, if I'm in a preaching situation and I will do that here and I'll just take this time because it's, it's that good.
One man ends up on a deserted island 20 years after he went missing
But there's, there's this guy that they had been hunting for, for years. He was in a plane crash in the ocean. He ends up on a deserted island. And the, ah, plane to rescue him comes probably 20 years after he's been missing and they see his little note on this Little island and they land. And, of course, everybody's happy to see him and they want to know the stories. How did you survive this, this and that? They said, you know, it was interesting when we were flying over and saw your logs that said help on it. We noticed that you had really, like, two separate living areas. There was a building over here on that side of the island and a building over here. And he said, yeah, he said, you know, about 10 years in, I decided that my faith was that important to me. I wanted to build a church. So I built a church and was, really happy there for a while. And he said, and then I got in disagreement about how we were doing worship, so I built one on the other side.
Debbie Wuthnow He was the only member there.
Rick Beggs You got it.
Debbie Wuthnow I'm like, wait a minute.
Rick Beggs But anyway, that just kind of tells you, if you wait long enough, you'll disagree with yourself.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, you'll find a reason to split your.
Rick Benjamin talks about John Adams and Thomas Jefferson on this show
Rick Beggs Anyway, so anyway, halfway through the show. Now we're.
Debbie Wuthnow Now people know a lot more about Rick.
Rick Beggs I know. Anyway, the whole idea of this show was really to talk about, that relationship that you wrote about with, Jon Adams and Thomas Jefferson and just how they became very close friends through, writings, through, putting our country together.
Debbie Wuthnow Right. The Continental Congress is where they met. They met when the Continental Congress was getting together. And, you know, every. Every state sent their representatives. So, you know, Thomas Jefferson was high up in. In Virginia. He was a delegate from Virginia, and he was a wealthy landowner. So he shows up and, you know, tall and, well, actually slender and they say, in a carriage with four horses. And Jon Adams was. He was on fire, emotional rhetoric, orator kind of guy. And he came from, Massachusetts. But they. They connected in their love of liberty, their love of freedom, and as they fought for freedom for America and. But very different stylistically. And they ended up, forming a friendship, you know, over. Just discussing, you know, the evils of what. What Britain was doing and what America needed to do. And then they ended up working together, on the committee of five that was asked to draft basically the reasons for separation, the Declaration of Independence. And it was interesting that Adams was very much the fiery orator. He would. You certainly know what he knew, what he thought about things. He wrote about a lot of that stuff. But he even wrote. He said, Adams, said about Jefferson, you know, years into their friendship, he goes, I don't think I've ever heard him say three sentences in one breath. He was the quiet, introspective you know, taking it all in, but such a gifted writer. And so, when they were on that committee, it was Adams who said, thomas, you need to write. You need to be the one to document this thing. And it was just part of their friendship. They understood each other's strengths, potentially weaknesses, and became a friends for, you know, a long time and then served together in the Washington administration, for two years. And I believe Adams was the next president. And then that the, the next election became very contentious because they were on other side of the aisles. If you think of the Federalist and anti Federalist, I was like, there's a different name. Yeah, Jefferson was very much an anti Federalist. did not want to have a big government. In fact, that's why Virginia only has one term. Their governor only has one. One term. That's their limit one. Because he didn't want anybody to get power for too long. Adams was the opposite and kind of came to a head, in presidential elections. Adams won that first one and it the next one. I don't know how many times it went to ballot. They went through a different process back then, but finally Jefferson was the winner and Adams was not very happy about it. And did not really caused fraction.
Rick Beggs It was a fracture in their relationship for like a decade or plus, even more so.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah, yeah, they didn't talk, they didn't interact. Adams did not go to Jefferson's inauguration. He in fact, appointed judges to almost undercut what Jefferson was. He appointed a bunch of Federalists to this anti federalist presidential, cabinet. And they just didn't talk. went off on their own. And it was. They had a common friend, another signer of the Declaration who was like, you guys, you have so much in common. You know, you're from this unique generation. You really need to, to recommunicate. you have so much to share with each other. Your stories need to be told. And it was Benjamin Rush that, you know, finally said, you guys need to talk. And Adams wrote a, basically a. Okay. He wrote a letter to Jefferson, said we should start talking. And that began the reconciliation. And that became, I mean for another, Another decade or more that they communicated very in depth, rich policy, friendship, letters that we, of course we still have today, that we can look at that reconciliation, and camaraderie really, because they lived through a super unique period of history in America. So it's, to me it's a story of, almost a guide warning of what could separate you and how, you know, how do you let that impact your relationships? But also, it's never too late to reconcile and to get back together.
Rick Beggs Well, there. Therein lies an incredible lesson for us as believers. You know, the fact that we will sometimes allow some pretty small things separate us as Christians. let's forget the politics. Let's forget the party. Let's. Let's just focus in on how we can get sideways just in our own spiritual walk with another person who just somehow made you really angry, and now you can't find a way to reconcile and you spend your life.
Did you ever have any friends like that, Debbie? Were not just friends
Did you ever have any friends like that, Debbie? Were not just friends, but even in the church,
Debbie Wuthnow we all have incidents. I'm not gonna. I can't point to one in particular, but there. I know there are incidences, and we get. We get our feelings hurt or we disagree on. Mostly it's our feelings get hurt, I think. and, you know, then you're just like, I'm not going to talk to. I'm not going to deal with that person. I know I have close friends now
Rick Beggs becomes a pride issue.
Debbie Wuthnow And. And then we're not gonna. And honestly, it's a lack of forgiveness, and I think that allows that root of bitterness to grow. And you reach this point where somebody's like, what was the reason you guys. And you can't even remember what it was because you're so far down. It's just the. No, I don't like that person. And, you know, so, Yeah, I'm sure you had those things, too.
Rick Beggs Oh, no, I'm perfect, Debbie. You know, I wouldn't have had that. I've. I've had more than I really want to count or account for. and sometimes, I could clearly hear God say, you go to that person and you. You seek reconciliation. I'm not. I don't think God even cared one way or the other whose fault it was or wasn't because it became both of our fault if we couldn't bond together just in the unity of Christ. But, yeah, I. I've had those instances, and I can think of two or three right off the top of my head. I asked you the question. I had two or three I could have shared. Just tells you what kind of person.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, and I think, you know, a lot of time before you do communion, it's like, seek yourselves and what your sins are. That's when God starts to talk to me about, oh, hey, you haven't talked to so and so for a while. what's going on there? Go. Go to Them, as you said.
Rick Beggs Well, and in. The incredible thing is, somehow somebody got in the middle of this, and I think sometimes that's what happens in our lives, that some mutual friend of each of ours, he gets in the middle and tries to pull us back. In this case, it was, as you said, Benjamin Rush, who brought, Jefferson and Adams back together, and then their friendship was probably as long afterwards as their separation was.
Debbie Wuthnow well, I'm looking at one of the little notes. It says for another 14 years they corresponded. And it is arguably some of the richest political correspondence in American history. That's rich. That's special.
Rick Beggs Well, yeah, yeah.
Debbie Wuthnow I don't think. I think that's why result in that. But. But it's still good.
Rick Beggs I will tell you, I've had a couple, Debbie, that have really, where there were periods. I can think of one where a period of eight years, there was nothing. And now we're back as nothing ever happened. And those things, probably do a couple of things for me, at least personally. One is the power of forgiveness, as you said.
Debbie Wuthnow Yes.
Rick Beggs And the desire of my heart to really be a follower of Jesus. Who would want reconciliation for. For what he did for us. He reconciled us to the Father.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs He enjoys when. When brothers and sisters reconcile.
Debbie Wuthnow Well. And it's a testimony of God's power and God's forgiveness. And it's part of our witness is. Is how other people see how we handle relationships.
Rick Beggs I do think, the story, how it ends after Adams and Jefferson do get back together and they have this wonderful relationship. and at the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, within hours of each other, on July 4, 1826, they both die.
Debbie Wuthnow Amazing.
Rick Beggs Just it was. And in the story at the end of this is that Adams, even at the end of his sort of last words, he sort of shared that in some. In some ways he felt like, well, then Jefferson must have won because he's going to be gone first.
Debbie Wuthnow There was still a little bit of competition going, I think.
Rick Beggs Oh, heavens. Yeah, I think there always would have been. But you know what? He didn't know that Jefferson had died an hour or two before he was saying those exact words.
Debbie Wuthnow Yep.
Rick Beggs Ah. And I think that is the irony that God presents a lot of times to our foolishness. So, yeah, I just, There's this, quote from Daniel Webster at the eulogy for Adams and Jefferson, and he says, as their lives themselves were the gift of Providence, who is it not willing to recognize in their happy termination as well as in their long continuance proofs that our country and its benefactors are objects of his care, recognizing his being God. Jesus himself.
Debbie Wuthnow Yep. It's a sense of sovereignty.
Rick Beggs Yeah, it is. It totally is the sovereignty of God. I,
Debbie Wuthnow It couldn't have. The script couldn't have been written to do that. Only God.
Rick Beggs No, no. Right. You can't make stuff like that up. Yeah.
Do you know of any movie based on this story
And there's got to be. Do you know of any kind of movie out there, based on this story?
Debbie Wuthnow I'm not. I think maybe we should write one. I'm not aware of one, but I think it would be a great story. I know there's a story of Jon Adams. They've got. I'm not aware of one of this relationship, but no, I don't.
Rick Beggs I'm not aware of one either. If somebody does pitch it, they should write to us. They should write this or write the script and then send it to us. And then we'll go make it. Yeah, and then we'll get all the credit for it. we'll share it and I know, I know we're getting real close to the end of primary season, and normally we do the sort of the big update thing at the end here, but I thought it might be really good to just give those last couple and then kind of surprise us with what is really getting ready to start.
Next Tuesday in New Hampshire, you will have your primary on September 8th
But tell me the last couple primaries that we, that we as a country are getting ready to.
Debbie Wuthnow We are so close to the end of primary season. I go, you guys are ready. so on next, next Tuesday in NewSong Hampshire, you will finally have your primary on September 8th. Your polls are going to open at 6, 6am they'll be closed at 8pm so make sure you get out there and vote and check out I voter guide.com first. Get your personalized ballot. Rhode island, your election is on Wednesday, September 9th. I don't know why it's on Wednesday. That's unique. But Rhode island, you do that. And up until, until election day on Wednesday, you can actually go vote early. So it's vote now, vote, you know, every day in between. But your election is officially on the 9th and your polls open at 7:00am and close at 8:00pm and, and next week we're going to start early voting for the general election. So enjoy the primaries.
Rick Beggs We are getting ready to open the polls for early voting for November.
Debbie Wuthnow there's a couple of states that believe in not. They believe in voting season, not just voting day or election day. It's election C, I guess. I don't know. So but next week, we'll tell you all about it. And the states that. Well, one state will still have a primary to happen, but there are states where early voting will already be beginning in. In September.
Rick Beggs Well, that's where you go. And you go, am I voting in a primary? Is this a general.
Debbie Wuthnow We just gotta love our republic. Every state's different.
Rick Beggs Yeah, well, I. There's a couple things I just saw recently that maybe we ought to get into at some point in time. But I. I saw something where in Minnesota, you can have somebody vouch for you that you live in a district. They don't have to show an id, but you can vouch for somebody up to eight different people, and they're allowed to vote.
Debbie Wuthnow So bring eight friends and be their voter id? Is that what you're saying?
Rick Beggs Wow. I'm just saying we may want to
Debbie Wuthnow talk about some of this stuff. The way the states are different, what they allow and don't allow. It's crazy.
Rick Beggs Well, I know, I can't tell you how, much I love doing the show with you, Debbie. so thank you. Always, every week when we get a chance to do this, especially when we do a story like this that kind of talks about the humanity of, politics or public policy and then how we get to try to make it work, even when we disagree. Debbie, we're. Should people write to us that they want to get a hold of us,
Debbie Wuthnow they want to ask us a question? Email compassivoterguide ah.com My team will answer your questions. Or if you want Rick and I answered on the air, let them know, and we will talk about that in a future episode. And anything related to the public square is the topic of the compass.
Rick Beggs Well, after hearing this show, they may not want me to answer any question, but they will ask you. you can find us on the AFR app. You should get that app. You can listen to everybody else's show and then the best show, which is us. or you can go to afr.net of course. AFR stands for American Family Radio, and you can also find the shows listed there. We're grounded in God and rooted in research. And remember, Jesus is always our true north.
Welcome to the Compass, a weekly political commentary
Rick Beggs Welcome to the Compass, navigating the public square together with faith, truth and conviction. Well, happy good Saturday to you. We are so glad you would join us. We, in this instance is Debbie Wuthnow and myself. Debbie is the president of iVoterGuide and VP at, AFA Action. Say hey, Debbie.
Debbie Wuthnow Hey, Rick. So good to be with you and with everybody else this week. It's a great Saturday.
We're gonna talk about something very fun, although can be politically charged
Rick Beggs Well, we're kind of going to take a little step to the side today. We're gonna. We're gonna. We're gonna talk about something very fun, although can be politically charged. But, you know, we've been spending our last couple of weeks, Debbie, talking about the questionnaire we do, on iVoterGuide So when people go to our website and they put in their address and they get back their ballot, one of the instant. One of the things that pops up is the opportunity to look and see if any of the candidates have filled out the questionnaire. And, what we take. How many shows did we do, Debbie, on this?
Debbie Wuthnow Oh, my gosh. We may have done five. We did, like, three just on the questionnaire and one on the judges and one on the school boards.
Rick Beggs Yeah. And in the midst of all of that, I'm sure our listeners will remember just because this is so recent, Senator Lindsey Graham died. And, it. It was a shock. It, to everybody. It didn't matter which side of the aisle you were on. You, you know, you always are going to have adversaries out there, but when they all of a sudden are gone, everybody has a little ping in their heart about, somebody going too soon. Of course, in God's economy, nobody's going too soon. He knows how many.
Debbie Wuthnow But we know we're all going eventually. So it's a reminder of our, Yeah, terminals.
Rick Beggs Yeah. How soon it could be.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Even in the death of somebody who was strongly on the aisle, there were positive comments
Rick Beggs Anyway, but, you and I got to talking about the fascination that even in the death of somebody who was, you know, very strongly right on the aisle, there were some really nice things said about him from people on the left.
Debbie Wuthnow Yes, there were.
Rick Beggs Yeah. And do you recall any of those, Debbie, that you would share with us?
Debbie Wuthnow I know there were. I will start by saying not everybody said positive things, but I was very interested.
Rick Beggs That's true.
Debbie Wuthnow By, you know, some of his. He was in the Senate for a long time. Right. And even Joe Biden said, you know, we just. I, mean because they were in the Senate at the same time back when Joe was in the Senate, and he said we disagreed often and sometimes loudly, but I All. I also called him a longtime friend. And, you know, we served together for over a decade and worked closely. So even though, you know, part of the goal of the legislature is to work across the aisle and to get something done when nothing's getting, you know, so that is one of the things you're supposed to do. Kamala Harris said he, was full of wit, energy, and charm and cared deeply about the Senate and the people of his state of South Carolina. You know, it. It warmed my heart that, you know, he's. We're all just people. Right? And even though we may disagree on things, it was encouraging.
Rick Beggs Yeah. I think the. I think in a country like ours that is really shaped by some pretty sharp political division, you know, sometimes we have to remember we're human and they are human, even though we may differ greatly. And that friendship and being civil with one another and even the opportunity maybe to have reconciliation where there's deep disagreement, I find it inviting for my spirit when I see and hear people who have been so m. Vehemently find a different word. you know, sometimes I have struggles with those words who disagree strongly.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs it just warms my heart when. When they do that. But there's a history of this in our country. And, you wrote, along with your staff, you wrote an article not too long ago, several weeks now, because I think it was after the celebration of our 250th anniversary, of the Declaration of Independence. You wrote an article about, Thomas Jefferson and Jon Adams and their friends kind of gonna. Yeah, we're gonna kind of head that way.
Ronald Reagan and Tip o' Neill had a good friendship
But I thought before I let you speak to that a little bit. I remember in my lifetime, I remember a couple odd friendships. I remember back when I was growing up and. And Ronald Reagan and Tip o', Neill, they had a really solid friendship, and they were really against each other philosophically.
Debbie Wuthnow Wasn't Tip like, the opposing party, speaker of the House or something?
Rick Beggs Yes, he was. He was a Democratic speaker of the House. And. And of course, Reagan being president, you know, and sort of the pioneer of modern conservative economics and limited government, Tim o' Neill was really on the other side.
Debbie Wuthnow Was he the speaker when Reagan was president?
Rick Beggs Yeah. okay. But he was a defender of the New Deal, progressive liberalism, and. And was all about social safety nets. And, of course, Reagan was, not for those things, but off stage, where they would maybe tear into each other. There's policies, even at press briefings and congressional sessions and. But they had a really warm personal rapport off the clock. Matter of fact, I think it was o'. Neill. Tip o' Neill said about Reagan. After quote, after six o', clock, we can be friends, but before six o', clock, it's politics. Oh, and. And, and they actually would meet on a regular basis to have a drink or swap jokes.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs And both very funny men. And. And at times it welcomed compromise.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, and it keeps the door discussion on stuff. I mean, you have to see your opponent as a person created in the image of God, just like we all are, to be able to even have that discussion. So I love how they. I mean, just his quote, I'm. He's putting it into the. This is my political box or this is my job, but here is, you know, relationship and let's go have a drink and talk. Because you're a dad and you're, you know, we have things in common. We're all sons and dads and moms and sisters, so we do have things in common. Even if we somehow take away different policy positions. but we still need to keep talking.
Rick Beggs Well, it's how things get done. And I think I remember one of the major legislations that they were able to come together on with Social Security reform. So there is a, good deal behind the scenes that a lot of times we don't get to see because the media doesn't want to project a lot of that.
Talk about the relationship that Scalia had with Ruth Bader Ginsburg
But another one that was just recent and sadly, both of them have passed away. both were supreme, court justices. I don't know if you remember the relationship that Scalia had with Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but talk about some differences. Yeah, I mean, they.
Debbie Wuthnow He's like, known for being Mr. Conservative and she's the exact opposite.
Rick Beggs Right? That's right. Well, he was an originalist. And, and of course, she was real interested in a progressive living constitution and really, big on. On civil rights. But their friendship outside the courtroom, they were famously best of friends. Not just friends. It'd be best of friends.
Debbie Wuthnow How did that happen? To know, I'd be curious. Just fly on a wall.
Rick Beggs Yeah. And I wonder if there. If there's not a movie. There should be a movie, because these are the things that we really should probably prop up and celebrate in our country. Yeah. Yeah.
Debbie Wuthnow As we've lost ability to do that.
Rick Beggs I do remember that they had a, shared love for a couple things. One was opera. I remember even Scalia. I went and saw him speak at an event I was doing in D.C. and he talked a little bit about this, but he talked about their shared love for opera and traveling. Matter of fact, I think they traveled together.
Debbie Wuthnow Really?
Rick Beggs With their spouses. Yes.
Debbie Wuthnow Wow.
Rick Beggs Yeah.
Debbie Wuthnow We have to find common ground, whatever it is.
Rick Beggs Where they rode an elephant together.
Debbie Wuthnow All four of them.
Rick Beggs Talk about. No, I don't.
Debbie Wuthnow I want to see that.
Rick Beggs I guess an Elva is big enough. I do.
Debbie Wuthnow Do.
Rick Beggs I want to do. I don't know. but you know what? I know they had a deep mutual respect for one another, even though they were so opposed to what.
Debbie Wuthnow But that respect is the key word in all of that. Right. Respect them as a person. Yeah.
Rick Beggs Well, it goes back to what you just shared about and that is we are all, we're all image bearers.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs and that's how we really should treat one another. Even though we disagree. And believe me, this isn't common, you know, in just in politics. We got this on our side of the aisle between differences within a party. We know we're seeing it on the left.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah. I was just gonna say there.
Rick Beggs My goodness.
Debbie Wuthnow Exposing that rift.
Rick Beggs Yeah. Especially with the, the socialism that is really crept in big time. Yeah. Into the Democratic Party. But. But if you take that and see it on the right as well, we have some real fragmented differences whether it's, where we stand on, on life.
Rick Beggs You know, where we stand on the border. And so in our own group. But let's take it farther. This can happen in our families.
Debbie Wuthnow Oh, you're metal.
Rick Beggs I know. I've gotten nosy now. this is. But even, even harder to take and watch is how a lot of times it destroys churches over really silly things.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, you know, not just theology. That's how we ended up with all these denominations is that they find something to disagree over. It could be the music, it could be, you know, the role of the Holy Spirit or with the spiritual gifts, whatever it is. And you know, if you look, they all kind of keep branching off and it comes back to some dispute they couldn't solve, couldn't reconcile.
Rick Beggs It reminds me of a huge story that I would tell at times, especially, you know, if I'm in a preaching situation and I will do that here and I'll just take this time because it's, it's that good.
One man ends up on a deserted island 20 years after he went missing
But there's, there's this guy that they had been hunting for, for years. He was in a plane crash in the ocean. He ends up on a deserted island. And the, ah, plane to rescue him comes probably 20 years after he's been missing and they see his little note on this Little island and they land. And, of course, everybody's happy to see him and they want to know the stories. How did you survive this, this and that? They said, you know, it was interesting when we were flying over and saw your logs that said help on it. We noticed that you had really, like, two separate living areas. There was a building over here on that side of the island and a building over here. And he said, yeah, he said, you know, about 10 years in, I decided that my faith was that important to me. I wanted to build a church. So I built a church and was, really happy there for a while. And he said, and then I got in disagreement about how we were doing worship, so I built one on the other side.
Debbie Wuthnow He was the only member there.
Rick Beggs You got it.
Debbie Wuthnow I'm like, wait a minute.
Rick Beggs But anyway, that just kind of tells you, if you wait long enough, you'll disagree with yourself.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, you'll find a reason to split your.
Rick Benjamin talks about John Adams and Thomas Jefferson on this show
Rick Beggs Anyway, so anyway, halfway through the show. Now we're.
Debbie Wuthnow Now people know a lot more about Rick.
Rick Beggs I know. Anyway, the whole idea of this show was really to talk about, that relationship that you wrote about with, Jon Adams and Thomas Jefferson and just how they became very close friends through, writings, through, putting our country together.
Debbie Wuthnow Right. The Continental Congress is where they met. They met when the Continental Congress was getting together. And, you know, every. Every state sent their representatives. So, you know, Thomas Jefferson was high up in. In Virginia. He was a delegate from Virginia, and he was a wealthy landowner. So he shows up and, you know, tall and, well, actually slender and they say, in a carriage with four horses. And Jon Adams was. He was on fire, emotional rhetoric, orator kind of guy. And he came from, Massachusetts. But they. They connected in their love of liberty, their love of freedom, and as they fought for freedom for America and. But very different stylistically. And they ended up, forming a friendship, you know, over. Just discussing, you know, the evils of what. What Britain was doing and what America needed to do. And then they ended up working together, on the committee of five that was asked to draft basically the reasons for separation, the Declaration of Independence. And it was interesting that Adams was very much the fiery orator. He would. You certainly know what he knew, what he thought about things. He wrote about a lot of that stuff. But he even wrote. He said, Adams, said about Jefferson, you know, years into their friendship, he goes, I don't think I've ever heard him say three sentences in one breath. He was the quiet, introspective you know, taking it all in, but such a gifted writer. And so, when they were on that committee, it was Adams who said, thomas, you need to write. You need to be the one to document this thing. And it was just part of their friendship. They understood each other's strengths, potentially weaknesses, and became a friends for, you know, a long time and then served together in the Washington administration, for two years. And I believe Adams was the next president. And then that the, the next election became very contentious because they were on other side of the aisles. If you think of the Federalist and anti Federalist, I was like, there's a different name. Yeah, Jefferson was very much an anti Federalist. did not want to have a big government. In fact, that's why Virginia only has one term. Their governor only has one. One term. That's their limit one. Because he didn't want anybody to get power for too long. Adams was the opposite and kind of came to a head, in presidential elections. Adams won that first one and it the next one. I don't know how many times it went to ballot. They went through a different process back then, but finally Jefferson was the winner and Adams was not very happy about it. And did not really caused fraction.
Rick Beggs It was a fracture in their relationship for like a decade or plus, even more so.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah, yeah, they didn't talk, they didn't interact. Adams did not go to Jefferson's inauguration. He in fact, appointed judges to almost undercut what Jefferson was. He appointed a bunch of Federalists to this anti federalist presidential, cabinet. And they just didn't talk. went off on their own. And it was. They had a common friend, another signer of the Declaration who was like, you guys, you have so much in common. You know, you're from this unique generation. You really need to, to recommunicate. you have so much to share with each other. Your stories need to be told. And it was Benjamin Rush that, you know, finally said, you guys need to talk. And Adams wrote a, basically a. Okay. He wrote a letter to Jefferson, said we should start talking. And that began the reconciliation. And that became, I mean for another, Another decade or more that they communicated very in depth, rich policy, friendship, letters that we, of course we still have today, that we can look at that reconciliation, and camaraderie really, because they lived through a super unique period of history in America. So it's, to me it's a story of, almost a guide warning of what could separate you and how, you know, how do you let that impact your relationships? But also, it's never too late to reconcile and to get back together.
Rick Beggs Well, there. Therein lies an incredible lesson for us as believers. You know, the fact that we will sometimes allow some pretty small things separate us as Christians. let's forget the politics. Let's forget the party. Let's. Let's just focus in on how we can get sideways just in our own spiritual walk with another person who just somehow made you really angry, and now you can't find a way to reconcile and you spend your life.
Did you ever have any friends like that, Debbie? Were not just friends
Did you ever have any friends like that, Debbie? Were not just friends, but even in the church,
Debbie Wuthnow we all have incidents. I'm not gonna. I can't point to one in particular, but there. I know there are incidences, and we get. We get our feelings hurt or we disagree on. Mostly it's our feelings get hurt, I think. and, you know, then you're just like, I'm not going to talk to. I'm not going to deal with that person. I know I have close friends now
Rick Beggs becomes a pride issue.
Debbie Wuthnow And. And then we're not gonna. And honestly, it's a lack of forgiveness, and I think that allows that root of bitterness to grow. And you reach this point where somebody's like, what was the reason you guys. And you can't even remember what it was because you're so far down. It's just the. No, I don't like that person. And, you know, so, Yeah, I'm sure you had those things, too.
Rick Beggs Oh, no, I'm perfect, Debbie. You know, I wouldn't have had that. I've. I've had more than I really want to count or account for. and sometimes, I could clearly hear God say, you go to that person and you. You seek reconciliation. I'm not. I don't think God even cared one way or the other whose fault it was or wasn't because it became both of our fault if we couldn't bond together just in the unity of Christ. But, yeah, I. I've had those instances, and I can think of two or three right off the top of my head. I asked you the question. I had two or three I could have shared. Just tells you what kind of person.
Debbie Wuthnow Well, and I think, you know, a lot of time before you do communion, it's like, seek yourselves and what your sins are. That's when God starts to talk to me about, oh, hey, you haven't talked to so and so for a while. what's going on there? Go. Go to Them, as you said.
Rick Beggs Well, and in. The incredible thing is, somehow somebody got in the middle of this, and I think sometimes that's what happens in our lives, that some mutual friend of each of ours, he gets in the middle and tries to pull us back. In this case, it was, as you said, Benjamin Rush, who brought, Jefferson and Adams back together, and then their friendship was probably as long afterwards as their separation was.
Debbie Wuthnow well, I'm looking at one of the little notes. It says for another 14 years they corresponded. And it is arguably some of the richest political correspondence in American history. That's rich. That's special.
Rick Beggs Well, yeah, yeah.
Debbie Wuthnow I don't think. I think that's why result in that. But. But it's still good.
Rick Beggs I will tell you, I've had a couple, Debbie, that have really, where there were periods. I can think of one where a period of eight years, there was nothing. And now we're back as nothing ever happened. And those things, probably do a couple of things for me, at least personally. One is the power of forgiveness, as you said.
Debbie Wuthnow Yes.
Rick Beggs And the desire of my heart to really be a follower of Jesus. Who would want reconciliation for. For what he did for us. He reconciled us to the Father.
Debbie Wuthnow Yeah.
Rick Beggs He enjoys when. When brothers and sisters reconcile.
Debbie Wuthnow Well. And it's a testimony of God's power and God's forgiveness. And it's part of our witness is. Is how other people see how we handle relationships.
Rick Beggs I do think, the story, how it ends after Adams and Jefferson do get back together and they have this wonderful relationship. and at the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, within hours of each other, on July 4, 1826, they both die.
Debbie Wuthnow Amazing.
Rick Beggs Just it was. And in the story at the end of this is that Adams, even at the end of his sort of last words, he sort of shared that in some. In some ways he felt like, well, then Jefferson must have won because he's going to be gone first.
Debbie Wuthnow There was still a little bit of competition going, I think.
Rick Beggs Oh, heavens. Yeah, I think there always would have been. But you know what? He didn't know that Jefferson had died an hour or two before he was saying those exact words.
Debbie Wuthnow Yep.
Rick Beggs Ah. And I think that is the irony that God presents a lot of times to our foolishness. So, yeah, I just, There's this, quote from Daniel Webster at the eulogy for Adams and Jefferson, and he says, as their lives themselves were the gift of Providence, who is it not willing to recognize in their happy termination as well as in their long continuance proofs that our country and its benefactors are objects of his care, recognizing his being God. Jesus himself.
Debbie Wuthnow Yep. It's a sense of sovereignty.
Rick Beggs Yeah, it is. It totally is the sovereignty of God. I,
Debbie Wuthnow It couldn't have. The script couldn't have been written to do that. Only God.
Rick Beggs No, no. Right. You can't make stuff like that up. Yeah.
Do you know of any movie based on this story
And there's got to be. Do you know of any kind of movie out there, based on this story?
Debbie Wuthnow I'm not. I think maybe we should write one. I'm not aware of one, but I think it would be a great story. I know there's a story of Jon Adams. They've got. I'm not aware of one of this relationship, but no, I don't.
Rick Beggs I'm not aware of one either. If somebody does pitch it, they should write to us. They should write this or write the script and then send it to us. And then we'll go make it. Yeah, and then we'll get all the credit for it. we'll share it and I know, I know we're getting real close to the end of primary season, and normally we do the sort of the big update thing at the end here, but I thought it might be really good to just give those last couple and then kind of surprise us with what is really getting ready to start.
Next Tuesday in New Hampshire, you will have your primary on September 8th
But tell me the last couple primaries that we, that we as a country are getting ready to.
Debbie Wuthnow We are so close to the end of primary season. I go, you guys are ready. so on next, next Tuesday in NewSong Hampshire, you will finally have your primary on September 8th. Your polls are going to open at 6, 6am they'll be closed at 8pm so make sure you get out there and vote and check out I voter guide.com first. Get your personalized ballot. Rhode island, your election is on Wednesday, September 9th. I don't know why it's on Wednesday. That's unique. But Rhode island, you do that. And up until, until election day on Wednesday, you can actually go vote early. So it's vote now, vote, you know, every day in between. But your election is officially on the 9th and your polls open at 7:00am and close at 8:00pm and, and next week we're going to start early voting for the general election. So enjoy the primaries.
Rick Beggs We are getting ready to open the polls for early voting for November.
Debbie Wuthnow there's a couple of states that believe in not. They believe in voting season, not just voting day or election day. It's election C, I guess. I don't know. So but next week, we'll tell you all about it. And the states that. Well, one state will still have a primary to happen, but there are states where early voting will already be beginning in. In September.
Rick Beggs Well, that's where you go. And you go, am I voting in a primary? Is this a general.
Debbie Wuthnow We just gotta love our republic. Every state's different.
Rick Beggs Yeah, well, I. There's a couple things I just saw recently that maybe we ought to get into at some point in time. But I. I saw something where in Minnesota, you can have somebody vouch for you that you live in a district. They don't have to show an id, but you can vouch for somebody up to eight different people, and they're allowed to vote.
Debbie Wuthnow So bring eight friends and be their voter id? Is that what you're saying?
Rick Beggs Wow. I'm just saying we may want to
Debbie Wuthnow talk about some of this stuff. The way the states are different, what they allow and don't allow. It's crazy.
Rick Beggs Well, I know, I can't tell you how, much I love doing the show with you, Debbie. so thank you. Always, every week when we get a chance to do this, especially when we do a story like this that kind of talks about the humanity of, politics or public policy and then how we get to try to make it work, even when we disagree. Debbie, we're. Should people write to us that they want to get a hold of us,
Debbie Wuthnow they want to ask us a question? Email compassivoterguide ah.com My team will answer your questions. Or if you want Rick and I answered on the air, let them know, and we will talk about that in a future episode. And anything related to the public square is the topic of the compass.
Rick Beggs Well, after hearing this show, they may not want me to answer any question, but they will ask you. you can find us on the AFR app. You should get that app. You can listen to everybody else's show and then the best show, which is us. or you can go to afr.net of course. AFR stands for American Family Radio, and you can also find the shows listed there. We're grounded in God and rooted in research. And remember, Jesus is always our true north.
Introduction to Political Friendships
Reflections on Senator Lindsay Graham
The Friendship of Jefferson and Adams
Lessons on Respect and Forgiveness
Personal Anecdotes and Historical Context
Conclusion: The Power of Reconciliation
Don't miss this thought-provoking episode that challenges us to navigate our public square with faith, truth, and conviction.
✍️ Episode References
iVoterGuide
https://ivoterguide.com
American Family Association (AFA)
https://afa.net
Lindsay Graham
https://www.lgraham.senate.gov
Joe Biden
https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-biden/
Kamala Harris
https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/vice-president-harris/
Ronald Reagan
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov
Ruth Bader Ginsburg
https://www.oyez.org/justices/ruth_bader_ginsburg
Antonin Scalia
https://www.oyez.org/justices/antonin_scalia
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