Dr. Jessica Peck prescribes Hope for Healthy Families on American Family Radio

Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And I hope that you're having a great Monday, even though it is Monday. Mondays can be good too. And wherever you are in a back to school journey, in a to work journey, in a I'm waiting for pumpkin spice journey, I know some of you have some really strong feelings about that, but thankfully we won't be talking about anything as controversial as that on today's show.

American Family Radio is hosting second annual Bibles for Babies campaign

And before I get to my guest, it is my joy to be able to share with you that American Family Radio is having, is hosting an annual, the second annual Bibles for Babies campaign. Now this is from Hannah's Heart, who is sponsoring this. Now those of you who are regular listeners will know that Hannah Heart is a radio show produced by American Family Radio to help Christian couples who are struggling with infertility and miscarriage. And it's hosted by Anne Cockrell and Kendra White. I had Anne and Kendra on the show a couple of weeks ago and they are just so inspiring. And I encourage listeners who know someone who is walking through an infertility journey to share that podcast with them. I think they will find so much hope in what God is doing and men and women around the world in their journey to have a family. And Bibles for Babies is a week long initiative to raise funds for mamas who choose life for their babies. And it is in honor of John Micah Cockrell that is Anne's very precious little baby who left this world way too soon. But his life and his legacy lives on. And so, and for all the mamas who have lost a child, Anne and Kendra really want to encourage couples who are struggling with infertility or child loss. And so they are asking for a one time gift of $10 to provide a new Bible for a precious new life who is on the way. The Bibles are the new beginners Bibles for children. And Park Gate Pregnancy center in Tupelo, Mississippi will purchase those Bibles from the donation to keep them at the clinic. So if you want to help, you can call in at 877-616-2396. That's 877-616-2396 or you can go online to afr.net/biblesforbabies  That's afr.net/biblesforbabies you can get a hold of American Family Association. Anyway, just tell them you want to donate a Bible in honor of John Micah, and they will get you into with the people that you need to, to be connected with.

Glenna Marshall writes Known & Loved on Psalm 139

And so I hope that participate in that and we have more good news because today's show, I know, is going to encourage your heart. And most of us believe that God loves people in general, but deep down, if we're really honest, a lot of us wonder, does he really love me? Does he even like me if he loves me? And in her new book, Known and Loved author Glenna Marshall is taking us into Psalm 139 with a gospel lens to answer those very questions. She is here to remind us that even though God knows us inside out, the good, the bad, the ugly, our fears, our failures and our pain, nothing can separate us from his love in Christ Jesus. So if you have ever feared that God is holding you at arm's length, then Glenna's words are going to comfort you with the truth that his love is steadfast, it is personal, it is unshakable. And that's what we're going to talk about. So, Glenna, thank you so much for joining us. We're so glad to have you here today.

>> Glenna Marshall: Well, thank you for asking me. I'm glad to be here.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, tell us a little bit about you and your life and what led you to write a book on Psalm 139.

>> Glenna Marshall: Well, I actually live in Southern Missouri and I am married to my pastor William. We've been married for 22 years and we've actually been at our church for 20 years now, so spent a lot of time in ministry in one place. And we have two boys, we have a 17 year old and a 10 year old, both of whom joined our family through adoption. And, so we are just now back to school, which means mom now has her writing hours back, desperately trying to meet deadlines over the summer break. And it's just, it just never works the way that I think it's going to. and so anyway, we live here and minister here in Southern Missouri and I am a full time writer and speaker and I'm grateful to have been able to author several books, the most recent of which is known and loved. And you know, I grew up in the church. I grew up in Tennessee, you know, very small southern Bible belt area and have been in church my whole life. And there was a period during my childhood where my parents, had. We were at a church that we loved. But there was a bit of a, kind of a legalistic aspect in that church. A, group of people, it did not come from the pulpit, but coming just from the culture of the church. And some of the families adhered to some forms of doctrine that really emphasized certain types of behavior, sort of elevating you to kind of an elite tier of Christianity. And though my parents eventually got us out of that church because the teaching was not good, and it was really antithetical to the gospel, some of that damage of understanding how God feels about me, some of that damage had already been done. And it took me a long time to undo it, because I had absorbed this belief that if I obeyed God perfectly, then I could be guaranteed that he would love me. And the problem is I cannot obey him perfectly. And so I was never sure if he loved me. And I believed that Jesus came and lived a perfect life in my place and died in my place on the cross to give me the free gift of eternal life that I could not earn. So I believed that. I believed that truth about the gospel, but there was still this kind of performative aspect to my faith, thinking that, okay, on the days I read my Bible, I know the Lord loves me. He really loves me. On the days I don't, he probably likes me less. And out of that grew a struggle to believe that God even liked me as an individual person, especially when I examined my flaws and areas, of sin where I struggled. And additionally, as a pastor's wife and being in one church for a long time, I have seen a lot of other Christians struggle with that same belief system that, yes, we're saved by grace through faith, but that God is just sanctifying us because he has to, not really because he wants to. And I find that to be a belief that completely robs the Christian faith of joy. And so, you know, the Lord's led me through some deep study of Scripture to sort of reframe my understanding of how he loves us and how he feels about us. And as writers do, when we learn something, we can't stop talking about it. And so then we put it in a book, because everybody in our lives is tired of hearing us go on and on about it. So we write a book, and that is how the book Known and Loved, came to be. I really wanted to communicate to Christians who struggle to believe in God's individual love for them that he does actually delight in his children.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna. I love this for so many reasons, but one of the privileges that I have. And sitting across the microphone with so many authors is that I have yet to find anyone who says, oh, I wrote this book because God divinely gave me this message of something that I have achieved perfectly in my life, and I just wanted to share my success with you. It always comes from a moment of struggle and a moment of pain. And it's not. I'm sure you're not writing this book because you think, oh, I have all the answers. I figured it out. I really view you as having the courage to say, no, I haven't. But here's the help and hope that I have found in my journey, and I'm so grateful for you sharing that. And honestly, Glenna, I feel like you're staring into my soul, because that if then proposition that you're talking about, oh, that is definitely something I struggled with. And I remember having this. Not even a figurative checklist, but a literal checklist that I would go down thinking, okay, I've got to read my Bible. I've got to pray. Pray. I've got to confess for every sin that I've committed during the day. And, you know, this, like, list of religious things, and I think, if I do those, then God will be happy with me. Then God will love me. And that took me a really long time to break it down, too. And we have this, you know, this if. Then relationship. If I do this, then God, you'll do this, and we're not entitled in that way. That's so hard.

Glenna: You talk about God's knowledge and love differing from ours

But I really want to start talking about what does love mean? Because you talk about God's knowledge and love differing from Our knowledge and our love. And what you and I have talked about so far, Glenna, is just our knowledge of what we thought God was like. But what have you learned about what that really is? The difference between what we think and what God thinks and how we love and God loves.

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah. So I think that so often we imbue into God's character or we put into his character what we see in human relationships. So, like, for example, if you had a father who was impatient or not present or standoffish, then when you think of God as father, that's how you think of Him. And so you tend to put these human traits into a divine character. And so then you're looking at your life and you're thinking, well, he's not doing this for me. He's not doing this for me, therefore, he must not love me. And what I really like to challenge people to do, because this was so Transformative for me was rather than looking at my life circumstances or even my human relationships and trying to interpret who God was based on those experiences. I really needed to start with Scripture, because that is his chosen revelation of Himself. Whatever he wants us to know about Himself, he has told us in His Word. So when you go to scripture and you see who he is, then you start to kind of undo and untangle some of that wrong thinking that, you know, makes. Makes your relationship with him feel very performative. He's not someone you have to perform for. He's someone who loves you and has always loved you. And he doesn't love you based on your good, adorable, lovable traits, but rather he loves you because he loves you. And his love is not like human love. And it cannot be found and lost in a moment. And so when we start with Scripture and we look at, how he has revealed Himself to be to us, it really changes everything. And we see him then not through human traits, but rather divine traits, because his love is pure. It's never tainted by a short temper or jealousy or envy or selfishness. And so often our human love is even the people we love most in the world, or maybe our spouse or our children or our own parents. We still are driven by our own personal desires, and even our love can be tainted by those things. And then when it comes to knowledge as well and thinking about how well God knows us, us, he's all knowing. And he knows everything about us, from the top of our heads to the soles of our feet, from our heart, soul and our mind, even to every little cell in our body. I mean, he knows us because he created us. And so he knows us. I like to. To say it this way. He knows our thoughts before we think them, our words before we speak them, and our steps before we take them. And his knowledge is also, I mean, it's a knowledge that we can rest in because yes, he is completely knowing, but he's also completely good. And that's not a trait that is human. That's a divine trait. And so when we begin to see him for who he is as God, kind of separating him from our versions of love and knowledge, it really does change the way we see him and then see how he views us.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I can definitely see this because even thinking about the way that we use the word love, I mean, we really use it very casually in conversation. You might like, I love Tex Mex food. You know, like, I could always go for queso and chips. Or you think, oh, I love this show. Or I love this, or, you know, and then even just the messaging, the cultural messaging that goes around love about what love is and. Or love is love, which, you know, we're trying to put, wrap our minds around it from our human framework, from our human sites, just exactly like you said, we don't have the capacity to love perfectly as God loves. Or maybe you even think deeply about your spouse, who you really love, and yet there's still brokenness. And in that human relationship, how do we lift our eyes and start to understand what God's love really looks like? I love how you talked about going to the Scripture and talk a little bit more about that.

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is just absolutely key. I think I did a practice maybe like 10 or 12 years ago. I was really struggling with some of these issues, and I just started reading Scripture and asking one question. Who is God? And so whatever I was reading, I think I started with the, Book of Isaiah, and then I went to the book of Exodus, the Gospel of John, a bunch of Psalms, and then eventually just went through all of scripture with a notebook, many notebooks, actually. And whatever Scripture said about God, I wrote it down. And that is really when my understanding of who he has revealed Himself to be really expanded. And I began to see that God's love is so different from ours because he loves, with our best interest, you know, his glory and our good at the forefront. He loves us. And sometimes that love means saying no to the things we want, because he is going to give us the things that we need, and he loves us in a way that's going to keep us close to Him. And so I think it is absolutely key to understand how God's love is to go to His Word. And so go to a chapter like Psalm 139, which is what I walk through in my book Known and Loved, because I think it's a beautiful exploration of how God intimately knows his people and intimately loves them. You could also go. I mean, I'm thinking of many passages. Romans 8, for example, speaking of the depth and the width and the height of God's love and how nothing separates us from it. Those are just two passages.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a great start. You're right. We're already at our first break. Glenna, can you believe it? Those are great. Those are two of my favorites, Psalm 139 and Romans 8. We'll be diving more into Psalm 139 when we come back.

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>> I Believe by Phil Wickham: Salvation, one doorway that leads to life, one redemption, one confession. I believe in the name of Jesus Christ. I. I believe in the crucifixion. By his blood I have been set free. I believe in the resurrection. Hallelujah. His life is death's defeat All praise to God the Father. All praise to Christ the Son. All praise through the Holy Spirit. Our God has overcome the king who was and ever more will be in Jesus mighty name. I believe.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is I Believe by Phil Wickham. Let me tell you, that song is definitely in my top 10 list of, you know, 147 songs that are in my top 10. But I love that song. And one thing that I do believe with all my heart is that God loves you. God loves you personally, not just, people. I'm talking to you specifically, and we're talking today about those things that prevent us from believing that God really loves us. About shame or hidden pain or maybe even physical suffering. These all things, all these are all things that can really weaken our faith. And they whisper lies that God has forgotten you. He is ignoring your prayers, or maybe even he's punishing you for something. But in known and loved, Glenna Marshall is leading us through Psalm 139 to show us that the God who sees us fully, body and soul and light and in darkness, the Good, the bad, the ugly. He never withholds his affection for us. His love for us is not abstract. It is personal. It is faithful. It is eternal. And I'm so glad to have her here to share with us how resting and God's steadfast love can restore our confidence even when we are struggling.

Why do we struggle to accept God's love for us?

So, Glenna, why then do we struggle to accept God's love for us? Why do we continually feel like it's something that we have to perform for, that we have to be perfect for? Why can't we just accept the fact that God loves us?

>> Glenna Marshall: I think that there is something in us. I really do think we have to go back to the fall in Genesis 3, when sin entered the world and permeated everything. I think that one of the things that humanity that we struggle with the most is accepting what God has made free for us in Christ, because there is in us a desire to earn it. And you have to swallow your pride in order to believe that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is enough for you to pay for your sin. That involves believing that you couldn't do it yourself. And I think sort of tangential to that is a belief that I need to be maybe worthy of or I need to earn God's love. Like it's something I've got to do. It is that innate kind of human desire that really has to just be smashed into pieces. I think it's part of taking up your cross and dying to yourself every day to realize that you can never be good enough to earn God's love. Because if you could have, he would not have needed to send Jesus. And it was always his plan to send Jesus. And so we have to sort of die to that desire that we can, we can earn it. And so I just, I think there's just something in us that we want to be able to do it ourselves. I think there's a backdoor kind of entrance for pride in that. And so then when something goes wrong in our lives, it's the first thing we question. Well, I thought that I was being good enough for God to love me. Why has he allowed this to happen? It just becomes the first thing that we question. But when we can sort of turn our eyes to the way that God loves His people, which is free gift of grace unearned, then it becomes something that you, you can't lose. Just because life seems to be falling apart, and may indeed be falling apart, it doesn't mean that you've lost his love because you didn't have to earn it in the first place.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Glenna, you mentioned earlier Romans 8, which is one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible. And I think of the verse from Romans 8 that says, he who did not spare his own son, but willingly gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with that, graciously give us all things? And I think and. And that. That includes his love for us, because he did come to the world not to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. And that's because that. That goes back to John, that for God so loved the world that he gave his only son. And so sometimes I have to remind myself, Glenna, this is a God who gave his own son. How can I believe that he doesn't love me? And that. That, That leads me a lot of times Back to Psalm 84:11 The Lord God is a sun and a shield. He gives grace and glory. No good thing does he withhold from those who walk uprightly. And I think that's just the. That's the relationship piece with God, just walking in relationship with him, knowing that he loves us, not really understanding why or how. But I think, all of this is tied up in our identity and in just being God's children. And you really dive in. This whole book that you've written is about Psalm 139, about being fearfully and wonderfully made.

We talk about broken bodies a lot as Christians because we are longing for resurrection

Now, I think I'm just going to ask you a really hard question here right off the bat when we go there, because I hear a lot of argument about this saying, okay, fearfully and wonderfully made. I'm a pediatric nurse. I see kids who are born with congenital anomalies all the time. I see kids who get cancer. I see kids who have disabilities. I see all kinds of things like that, where kids are born with those kinds of things. Where do you see fearfully and wonderfully made in that context?

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah, I think those are. That. It is a really hard question, because you look around at your life and you see all of the broken bodies that don't work the way that they should. And I get that. I just will be candid with you. my husband and I were unable to have children. Our bodies did not work the way they were intended. I have a cluster of autoimmune diseases that I will have until the day I die. And I deal with pervasive chronic pain and will until the end of my life. My husband is a type 1 diabetic and has been since he was a young child. I have a child who's neurodivergent, whose brain works differently than the rest of the world. I have another child who had his entire spine from neck to waist, surgically rebuilt to fix his very severe scoliosis. So in our home, we talk about broken bodies that don't work the way they were intended quite a bit. And so still, it was still good that God created us the way that he did. Now I think that the whole earth groans for the return of Christ. I think that sin, you know, that we talked about in the curse of Genesis 3, sin has touched everything in this world. And I think even our very bodies are groaning to be made new and to be made right. I think that God still creates with purpose. And because he creates every human in his own image. And every life, every human life, no matter whether it works, the body works well or it doesn't at all. Every human life has inherent value because every human life images God to the world. Humans are different from every other part of creation because this is what sets us apart. You can go back to Genesis 1 and 2 and read that. And so our, lives have value even if our bodies don't work the way that they were meant to. And I think we will see disability and disease and illness and pain until the day that Christ returns. And, you know, one of the things we talk about in our family a lot with dealing with pain and ongoing diseases and issues is that we are longing for resurrection day. We're longing for the day when Christ will return because his resurrection guaranteed ours. And one day he's going to give us new bodies that will never hurt, never have pain, never have disease. They will work exactly as they are supposed to. And those are the bodies we're going to have for eternity. I like to quote the, theologian Don Carson, who said, I'm not suffering from anything a good resurrection can't fix. And I just, I think that is, you know, that's where we're setting our eyes as Christians. We have to remember that our, our faith and our life is forward pointing. We are looking for the day where Christ will return and make all things new. New heavens, new earth, new resurrected bodies. And so until then, our bodies are kind of like signposts that are reminding us this is not all there is. The best really is yet to come.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, it's so inspiring to hear you speak so candidly. And it comes across differently with you having your own personal experience with brokenness in body, with sickness, with disease, with disability, because when you walk through that and you can still sit there and give the message of hope that you're giving. It's going to be received differently for them. Somebody just saying, from an academic sense, well, this is what the truth is. Having lived and walked that journey, I can see how God is just using that for our good, for his glory. And some of the most inspiring interviews that I've had have been with people who have significant physical disability. One would be Nick Vujicic, who is now, I, I'm, I'm blessed to call a very good friend, a man who was born without any arms or legs. Can you imagine? And yet he says his life calling is to be the hands and feet of Jesus. Only God can do that. I think of Kevan Chandler, who was born with spinal muscular atrophy, who always start interviews with a, ah, thanks to his parents for choosing life for him because his life has been so meaningful and so full. And I think those things are really inspiring.

Glenna: There are Christians who deal with shame for past sins

And conversely, there are people who are broken not in body, Glenna. but that are broken in spirit. They're broken in mind, they're broken in their soul. Maybe they're born without any disability, without any disease, but they're born into trauma, into generational trauma or abuse. Or they are born and they make their own choices of sin because we live in a broken world. And they live with shame and they live with just so much, conviction over their past or maybe their present sins. And they think, how can God love me and allow these things to happen or, you know, leave me here in this. What do you say to those who are broken not in body, but broken in spirit, about the way God loves them?

>> Glenna Marshall: I think shame is such a difficult thing to talk through for people. I think there are Christians who deal with shame for, you know, pre conversion sins, like the way they lived before they came to faith in Christ. And then there are Christians who deal with shame for ongoing, you know, current areas of sin where they struggle. And it is so easy to look at where you have failed and miss m the mark of God's holiness, and then just live in the shadow of shame. It can just beat you down so much and rob your life of all joy. Because on the one hand, you know God is holy and you know he is good, and you know you've missed the mark of his holiness because of sin, whether from the past or current. And this is where I just think as Christians, I mean, we use the phrase preach the gospel to yourself, but we really have to, because, you know, again, I think we go back to well, God has saved me by grace through faith, but it's up to me to, to really be good from now on. But we need the gospel today just as much as we did on the very first day that we believed it. We are being sanctified by grace through faith in Jesus. And so instead of running from God when we feel shame for sin, we should run to him because he is the one who provided a way out for us through faith in Jesus. And so rather than letting shame be something that covers us or, or leads us to hide from Him, I love to go to those verses in P.S. psalm 139 where David says, the dark is not dark to you. and really, if you think about it, God created light and dark if you go back to Genesis 1. So it's not like things that are hidden in the dark. He can't see. He's the Creator. He sees everything. So there's nothing in our areas of shame over sin that we're actually hiding from Him. He sees all, he knows all. And, and the love that he has given us in Christ really just transcends any kind of shame. There is no sin too great that God cannot forgive. And so I think the call every person who wants to follow Jesus but feels like their sin is too much. This is exactly why he came to die. You couldn't do it and he has done it for you. And so run to the Lord who loves you, not away from him in shame.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I just feel emotion swelling up in my heart for people who are hurting, who are running, who are self medicating, who are trying to self help their way out of this. And it's just, just, it really does remind me of the story of the prodigal son, you know, how God just receives us with open arms, especially when we repent and just turn. He's right there. He's waiting for us.

Glenna Marshall: What did you learn about David from reading Psalms

And I think about even Psalm 139 thinking about the Psalms and how so many of them were written by King David. He is such a great character study of someone who is called a man after God's own heart. And Glenna, probably most people listening, you know, if you know something about David, you know about, about him slaying the giant Goliath and you know, about his adultery with Bathsheba. But there was so much more. And throughout David's life, when he sinned, he repented and he went back to God. And God was faithful even to provide the Savior through his line. What did you learn about reading Psalm 139 about seeing God's heart and maybe if anything, about David that you learned, what did you learn that was instructive to your own life and your own journey and walk with this?

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah. What I love about David, I do. I agree with everything you just said, because here he is the king. You know, he's at the highest position that you can be. And yet he wrote very transparently and humbly about his areas of sin in his life. When you read the Psalms that he wrote, he's just gut level, honest, and he doesn't really gloss over his sin. And I think, wow, what a, a, what a strong example to the people that he's leading. So, you know, he, like with, Psalm 51, after his sin with Bathsheba, he confesses to the Lord. And it's not just that he writes this psalm in secret. I mean, he teaches his Psalms to the people to sing and which I actually think is crazy.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I don't really read my.

>> Glenna Marshall: I don't want my journal entries being turned into songs that people are singing in church, you know, and so I just appreciate so much the honesty from David's pen because I think it gives that us something that we can understand. It's why the Psalms are just so helpful in the Christian life. Whether we're praying or mourning or lamenting or rejoicings, if we don't have the words to say, God has given us the language of prayer and praise through the Psalms and written, you know, by the, the inspiration of the Spirit, but through really imperfect people. And David actually screwed up a ton. And yet what you said a minute ago is so key. He just continually returned to the Lord in repentance over and over again. And that is precious to the Lord. And you see that at the end of, Psalm 139, where David closes this big exalting praise for the Lord with a request for the Lord to search him and know him and really unearth any sinful way. He just, he wants to walk closely with the Lord. I love that. I think that's such a good example for how we should live.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I love that too. And you just gave me a whole lot to think about. I definitely would not want my journals of confession to be presented before the people, but what a great example. Listen, we've got a lot more to talk about with Glenna Marshall when we come back. Known and loved. Psalm 139. Don't go away. If we lose this cultural war, we're. Going to have a hedonistic, humanistic society discover the story of The Culture Warrior Don Juan and how he went head to head with Hollywood playboy, the homosexual agenda, and the Disney empire. The M movement Don started paved the way for Christians to boldly stand for truth and righteousness in a hostile culture. Watch Culture Warrior today for free visit culturewarrior.movie

>> Jesus, Son of God by Brandon Heath: You came down from heaven's throne. This earth you formed was not your home. A love like this the world had never known. A crown of thorns to mock your name Forgiveness fell upon your face. A love like this the world had never known. On the altar of our praise, let there be no higher name. Jesus, son of God, you lay down your perfect life. You are the sacrifice. Jesus, son of God. You are Jesus, son of God.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Jesus, son of God, by Brandon Heath.

Glenna Marshall says God's love never fails in Psalm 139

And welcome back. We are having a great conversation today with Glenna Marshall. Our prescription for hope to you today is that. Listen, God's love never fails. Never, ever, ever, ever, even when we think it does in our own frail human understanding. And we have all wrestled with questions like, if God knows me, he knows every thought, every action, my flaws, my failures, my fears, years. How can he still love me? But in her newest book, Known and Loved, Glenna Marshall is answering with a resounding yes, he does. Walking verse by verse through Psalm 139, she shows us that God's love isn't just for the world. In a broad sense, that God loves people. He loves you. It's for you personally and individually. And even when shame or suffering or silence can make you feel forgotten, God's love remains faithful. And Glenna here today is reminding us, she's reminding me that the God who knows us best also loves us most, and his love never fails. So if you have ever feared that God was holding you at arm's length, we are hoping to restore your confidence today to say, no, that is not happening.

How can we feel God's love even in the midst of discipline for sin

And, Glenna, you and I were having a great conversation, back behind the scenes during the commercial break that I wanted everybody else to hear a little bit about, because we were continuing to talk about King David. And really the differentiating factor that he had, the character quality that he had was willingness to repent. And that differentiated him from so many of the flawed and failed kings that would follow. And we were talking about how God disciplined David. Just because he loves us doesn't mean he doesn't discipline. In fact, he says that because he loves us, he disciplines us. Us. So how can we feel God's love even in the midst of discipline for our sin?

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah, I think for the Christian, it's easy to confuse discipline with punishment. But we have to remember the beginning of Romans 8 that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Meaning that all the punishment that we deserve for our sin, Jesus took it at, ah, the cross, and he swallowed it down to the dregs for us. And so if we are experiencing, some growing pains in our faith in the Lord, it's not because the Lord is punishing us, but rather because he is disciplining us, training us for righteousness. If you go over to, I believe Hebrews 12 is where, the author of Hebrews talks about the Lord disciplining those he loves. And he actually pulls from the Proverbs there. He quotes a verse from Proverbs talking about how, the Lord disciplines His sons because he delights in them. Which sounds a little funny to our ears. But at the same time, what he's doing is he. He's teaching his children whom he loves to stay close to him because that is for their good, not wandering away. And if you think about it as a parent, even when you are raising kids, you discipline children for their good. It's not necessarily because it's the most fun thing in the world, but you're doing it for their growth, for their protection, for their wisdom. and so we look at God, who is the perfect Father. And so if he allows things into our life that are, you know, some form of dishonor, discipline or training, it is actually because he loves us and wants us to be more like Jesus. And he is using these experiences or sanctification processes in our life for our good. Not because he's mad at us, but because he delights in us. If he didn't care about you, he let you go play in the street. You know, it's the reason I tell my kids, the reason I don't let you play in the middle of the street is because I love you. If I didn't love you, I'd say, go do whatever, you know, I don't care about what happens, happens to you. So similarly, but in a much better and perfect way, God disciplines us because he does care about our hearts and what happens to us.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: So I think we're really talking about that. That tension that exists between. Between God's unconditional love for us. He loves us no matter what. He. He knows our every thought. He, like you, you just said, you said it so much more beautifully about. He knows every thought that we. What was it that you said? Say it again.

>> Glenna Marshall: Oh, he knows that he knows our thoughts before we think them, our words before we speak them, and ourselves steps before we take them.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Exactly. So he knows all of that, and yet he loves us anyway, and yet he disciplines us for sin. So where's the balance in that? And saying that, hey, you can't. People who say you can't take God's love for granted, and you can't, you know, press upon his good grace and thinking about Paul saying, should we go on sinning all the more. are we. Where's the balance and the tension between those two ideas?

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah. So we have to be so careful not to conflate God's love with that kind of floaty, permissive thing that we call love in our culture today, where it's just kind of live and let live. Now go to First Corinthians 13 and look at what love really is. I mean, in First Corinthians 13, Paul's talking about love between brothers and sisters in Christ in the church. But you will see that love is sacrifice. Love wants what is best for the other person. Love is patient and kind. And so, you know, God doesn't want us ever to continue in sin. And so if he is doing something in your life in order to reveal sin to you, to show you where you are in error, to convict you, and sometimes that conviction hurts so, so much and is very humbling and hurts our pride so much. He's doing that because he loves you, because he does not want you to shipwreck your faith by chasing after sin. And we just have to see it that way. He has our best interests at heart because he is love.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: It's so true. And that's what I tell my kids all the time, that God's commands are there for their good and for his glory. And we do live in a fallen world, and that can be really, really hard. And I just. I love in this book how you just walk us through some of those things that we're really wrestling with. But you know what I see, Glenna? I don't see a lot of conversation about this. You know, when I'm out in a restaurant or in the grocery store, you know, you hear people talking about. About current events or what might be going on, you know, at school and even in our homes. We may be talking about our schedule or maybe even about emotions, how we're feeling about something, but we don't often talk about, something like imprecatory prayer. And you talk about. But you walk through some of those concepts, and these are the conversations that we need to be having at home. Does God love me no matter what? How do I know that? And one of the things that you walk through as a teaching point in Psalm 139 is a, an imprecatory prayer. Can you talk to us about what that is so that it can spark some conversation, maybe tonight at our dinner table and somebody can sound really smart and say, hey, did you know Psalm 139 has an imprecatory prayer?

Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies and love them

Let me tell you my thoughts about this.

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah, that, that portion of Psalm 139, it's towards the end, it's a big chunk of text and we often skip it because we've got this beautiful psalm about how God cares for us and knows us and he's always with us. And then you get to the verse where the psalmist says, oh, that you would slay wicked. And I had somebody say to me recently, that they were asked to read Psalm 139 like at a funeral or something. And they said, but don't read the weird, don't read the weird part, don't read the weird part. And I think we skip this section because it sounds so strange to our 21st century ears. We don't typically pray cursing psalms on people, but this section of scripture, I mean, you got to think about it. This is David. He has just talked about how God has created human life with care and he loves them and he, I mean he is for them. And then you get down to this imprecatory section and he is describing the actions of oppressors who are taking human life. And that is not precious to God, the taking of human life. And so David is aligning himself with loyalty to God, saying, look, what matters to you, matters to me. I love what you love. I hate what you hate. And so I think today, sitting on this side of the gospel story, keeping in mind that Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies and love them. Pray for those who persecute you. I think what we do as Christians, and this is where we can have some discussions, I think good face to face discussions around our dinner tables. How do we love our enemies? But also read David say, oh, that you would slay the wicked. I think we have to remember that we used to be enemies of God before he saved us and made us his children. And so we pray that the Lord would end, you know, violent oppression, things like that. The things that David's talking about, either by ending the wicked who are doing this or saving them, opening their eyes to see the goodness of Jesus. And so we pray for justice and we pray for mercy, because both matter to God.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really convicting. I mean, thinking that, yes, we were once enemies of God, we were once enslaved in our sin, and aligning, yourself with the heart of God. And all of this is pointing back to the heart and the character of God. And I think so often, Glenna, we view it as transactional in nature, just like we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, this whole if then thing. And we're trying to figure out, out, you know, what is God going to do? And. And a question I get a lot from people is like, what is God's will for my life? They want to know what's going to happen in their life, how God's going to bless them, m. How they, you know, what's going to happen. And we really think about kind of just events and people and places and circumstances, but we really don't often have our heart drawn to the character of God. How do you see God's character displayed in Psalm139? What did you learn about the character of God?

>> Glenna Marshall: God, he loves his people by being near his people. I think that that is what we see. We see him hemming us in behind, and before we see him laying his hand upon us, he delights in his people and he wants to be near them. And I think that that reveals an affection that we should just receive and we should stop questioning it because he has loved us with an everlasting love. And we see it at its height at the cross, but it didn't stop at the cross. It just continues and continues and continues. And, that I just. After finishing studying the psalm and writing a book about it, I hope I never question God's love again. this psalm really cemented it for me so deeply in my heart.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: And how do you. How do you do that as a mom now with your kids? How do you convey to them, them that God loves them more than anything and help them to build their identity in that? Because I think, you know, so often we pursue love from other sources. We pursue affection, admiration. We pursue some worldly success. And even for older people who think about their legacy and what they want their life to be on earth, how do we transfer that knowledge of God's character and his love for us, us into what we want to be here on earth and who we are?

>> Glenna Marshall: Yeah, I think one of the best things that. That we can do, and this is something we practice in our home, is to ask our kids questions about God. So there's two ways that we've done this in our home when we've gone into a difficult situation. At the beginning of this show, I talked about my. My teenager having scoliosis surgery, nine hour operation, high risk of paralysis. It was super scary. One of the things we asked him, we want you to look for how God loves us in this process, in the surgery, in the recovery, and how he provides for our needs and how he gets you through the pain. We're just gonna, constantly ask that question and then answer it. And so that's become a practice that was a few years back. And it's become a practice we do for everything we face. How is God loving us in this? And when we teach our kids to do that, then they start to look for it. And I am hoping that this will shift, differently from the way that I was raised, where I really doubted God's love. I'm hoping my kids will always be looking for evidence of his love, that it will be the thing that they just begin to notice now and practice noticing the rest of their life.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know what, Glenna? That. That's really convicting. I have a daughter who, had a very severe immune deficiency when she was younger. And I remember, you know, just her. Her attitude was so different from mine. I was focused on the things that she couldn't do and the fears that we had and the uncertainties and the unknowns. And she was always so good to turn something into God's evidence of love and care for her. And to say, I'm grateful for this. I mean, there was one point where she had to be in a wheelchair because she was really too weak to walk. And I remember saying, I'm so sorry you have to do this. Like, you shouldn't have to be a kid in this wheelchair chair. And she looked at me and she said, mama, I'm grateful for this wheelchair. It lets me go places. It gets me places I want to go. And I'm grateful that God gave this to us and that I can go places in a wheelchair. And I remember just feeling, like, about maybe one inch tall and sometimes our kids. And then that's where I thought, this is the faith of a child right here. And I've seen that so often through so many health challenges that my own family has faced. I remember one time in particular where my husband had to have an emergency oral surgery on, Thanksgiving in the middle of nowhere. Like, the fact that we even found an oral surgeon was a miracle in and of itself. But we'd never met this person. And walking in, I heard, your love never fails, never gives up, never runs out on me. That was the song that was playing in their waiting room, and I thought, okay, God, you even care about those little details and thinking your love remains. Well, I'm so appreciative of this conversation.

Glenna shares conviction that God loves us deeply in Psalm 139

Glenna. The book is called Known and Loved Experiencing the Affection of God in Psalm 139. And if you want to know more about God's love for you, I encourage you to open Psalm 139 and to get a copy of this book to read along with it. Glenna, thank you so much for sharing with us the conviction that God loves us, deeply. And listen, as you're praying, praying over that and pondering over that, I pray over you that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you and give you peace as he reminds you that his love never fails, never runs out. And I'll see you back here tomorrow.

>> Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Glenna Marshall joins Jessica to talk about experiencing the love and affection of God in Psalm 139 and her book "Known and Loved"

Rx for Hope: God's Love Never Fails

https://www.glennamarshall.com/