Dr. Jessica Peck prescribes Hope for Healthy Families on American Family Radio

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck. Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And wherever you are today, if you are driving down the road delivering goods that we need, if you're patrolling the streets, if you're delivering mail, if you're picking up grandkids from school, if you're taking kids to sports practice, wherever you are, thank you so much for tuning in. I have got a great guest for you and, and he is no stranger to the national conversation on faith and family and life. He is a Princeton and Wharton graduate. He's a former corporate executive with IBM, with Pepsi, with Goldman Sachs. And for over a decade he's been a very powerful and influential voice in the pro life movement as president and CEO of Care Net Now, you may have seen him on the Today show, on cnn, on Fox News, or you may have read his insights in USA Today or the Washington Post or Christianity Today, but he is here with us today.

Roland Warren shares his message on alternative to abortion in new book

And I am so grateful to have Roland Warren here to share the compelling message of his new book, the Alternative to Abortion why We Must Be Pro Abundant Life. And he believes the church must do more than save lives, it must make disciples. I couldn't with that. More. Roland, thank you so much for joining us and giving us your time today to share this really important message. Roland warren Great to be with you. Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.

Roland Warren says college experience shaped his views on abortion

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Roland, I know we've all seen the limits of politics and we've all seen this national debate about what does it mean to be pro life. And you really have framed this differently in being pro Abundant Life. But I want to start, start back with your own personal story because your own experience that you had in college really informed and changed the trajectory of your life, I would be so bold to say, and informed your position on abortion and your approach to the issue. So would you take us back to those college years and your own personal experience?

>> Roland Warren: absolutely.

>> Roland Warren: Yeah, it really did. I was an undergraduate at Princeton. I was in my junior year and I got my girlfriend pregnant who was a, ah, sophomore. And so we were facing an unplanned pregnancy.

>> Roland Warren: We were Christians and obviously doing stuff that Christians shouldn't be doing. And we found ourselves in that situation. And you know, when she went to student health services, you know, at Princeton, the nurse administered the pregnancy test. And then kind of came back and.

>> Roland Warren: Without kind of missing a beat, kind of said, listen, you know, the test is positive and of course you're.

>> Roland Warren: Going to have an abortion. And my girlfriend on the Punchline, my.

>> Roland Warren: Wife, 43 years as of May 1, said, no, no, I don't want to.

>> Roland Warren: have an abortion.

>> Roland Warren: I want to get married. I want to have my baby.

>> Roland Warren: The nurse says, my gosh, what year are you? She said, well, I'm a sophomore. Gosh, how are you going to graduate.

>> Roland Warren: From Princeton with a baby?

>> Roland Warren: And then she asked her, well, what do you want to do when you graduate?

>> Roland Warren: And Yvette said, well, I want to become a doctor.

>> Roland Warren: And my goodness gracious. Nurse said, how are you going to.

>> Roland Warren: Become a doctor with a baby?

>> Roland Warren: Graduate from Princeton with a baby?

>> Roland Warren: Didn't seem like it made a whole.

>> Roland Warren: Lot of sense, didn't seem like the right choice. So, you know, I imagine she came.

>> Roland Warren: Back to the dorm room and we talked about it and kind of my 20 year old way, you know, I said, no, we're going to move forward with the plan.

>> Roland Warren: She said, we're going to move forward with the.

>> Roland Warren: And we did.

>> Roland Warren: We got married by justice of the.

>> Roland Warren: Peace with four student friends. and that, was it. We kind of started our life together. she did go on to graduate from Princeton with not just one baby, but two. Our second son was born, about.

>> Roland Warren: A month before she graduated.

>> Roland Warren: So she had a thesis due and then she had our son Justin due and she delivered both on time.

>> Roland Warren: And you know, it's Princeton, you got to overachieve.

>> Roland Warren: So why have one baby? You can have two, right?

>> Roland Warren: So we did that and then she.

>> Roland Warren: Went on to, you know, go.

>> Roland Warren: To medical school, become a doctor, was.

>> Roland Warren: Chief resident of a program.

>> Roland Warren: It's been practicing medicine close to 30 years now.

>> Roland Warren: So I saw in that, in that kind of narrative, if you will, of my own life, you know, what started.

>> Roland Warren: To be sort of the seeds of kind of thinking about the life issue.

>> Roland Warren: You know, differently, and kind of expanding the perspective from being pro life to being pro abundant life, because it's there.

>> Roland Warren: And you know, I think the other thing too, which I'll just.

>> Roland Warren: The point I'll make is that, you.

>> Roland Warren: Know, you know, when, when you, you look at the, the life issue and this is part of the reason why I, I really kind of challenge kind.

>> Roland Warren: Of the pro life, your word now.

>> Roland Warren: Because what does it actually mean?

>> Roland Warren: I mean, you know, some people say, listen, I'm pro life because I believe.

>> Roland Warren: In, you know, Imago day that I think that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not determine its humanity and worth. And whether you're conceived in love or.

>> Roland Warren: Lust, whether you're planned or unplanned, or whether you have some kind of physical.

>> Roland Warren: You know, challenge, whatever it may be, it doesn't change your humanity. So that's one position, but then there's other position. Well, I'm pro life too.

>> Roland Warren: Well, what are you?

>> Roland Warren: Well, I'm for a 15 week ban. Okay, well, 15 week ban. How many abortions happen before 15 weeks? Well, about 96%. That's considered a pro life position.

>> Roland Warren: Well, you.

>> Roland Warren: I'm for a 20 week ban. How many abortions happen before 20 weeks? Well, about 99%. You see, we've taken an issue which is an absolute, and we've turned it into sort of.

>> Roland Warren: It's on a spectrum. So when someone says they're pro life, to me, my first thing I asked.

>> Roland Warren: Him is, what do you mean by that?

>> Roland Warren: So the term, if you will, because.

>> Roland Warren: We gave it to a political process, it actually doesn't even mean anything concrete anymore. And that's one of the reasons I.

>> Roland Warren: Really felt like, you know, about 10, 12 years ago when God downloaded this.

>> Roland Warren: Abundant life perspective to me, which we.

>> Roland Warren: Can talk about a bit more, it.

>> Roland Warren: Made a whole lot of sense. Now, looking back, going like cusp.

>> Roland Warren: What's happened with the term because we.

>> Roland Warren: Gave it to a political process,

>> Roland Warren: It makes a lot of sense that we need to kind of recast, step back and really try to anchor ourselves in the word of God and how.

>> Roland Warren: How Christ kind of thought about this issue. And that's what we can talk about a little more if you're interested.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes, I definitely want to.

Roland, congratulations on 43 years of marriage. That is no small accomplishment

And Roland, first of all, congratulations on 43 years. That is no small accomplishment. And what, what a blessing. And I'm sure that you would say that God has been instrumental in the success of your marriage. So congratulations on that. The second thing I would say is that I'm so sorry that you had that experience with a nurse. It breaks my heart to hear you tell that story. Story and to hear that kind of encounter and that kind of reaction, to, to your wife, you know, who was your girlfriend at the time, at that point of need. That I just have to say that that breaks my heart a little. But on the flip side, that son that you had, he graduated from Harvard, did he not? Is that right?

>> Roland Warren: Yeah, he.

>> Roland Warren: He did.

>> Roland Warren: He did. I tell him often that, you know, my only, my only regret in life is that I can only give.

>> Roland Warren: Him the second best education.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Rivalry, right? Exactly. I would expect nothing less. I love that. And you're right, that term pro life now has been so politicized and there is disagreement on what does that even really mean. And for me, from my perspective as a nurse, I think, you know, I've really dedicated my life to promoting optimal holistic care across the lifespan. And that includes a lot of life's fragile moments. And I think about, you know, really, Roland, especially in the last few years when, we've had so many advances in genetics. I am a starstruck witness, honestly, to the sanctity of the unborn. Each heartbeat, each microscopic development within the womb. I mean, we're talking about jaw dropping miracles. We're looking at what we know now through, chromosome analysis being able to have complete DNA strands which we didn't even have until about 2002. And now we just see more and more about the miracles that happen in the womb. But we also, it's not just about being anti abortion or it is so much more than that. So I would love for you to unpack a little bit more what you mean by this pro abundant life concept.

>> Roland Warren: Well, it comes from John 10:10 where Christ said, I came that you might have life and then have that life abundantly.

>> Roland Warren: That's basically where it comes from. Right.

>> Roland Warren: So when you think about what Jesus.

>> Roland Warren: Was saying in that moment and you.

>> Roland Warren: Look at that passage in the Greek, he's, he's talking about two types of life. He's talking about physical life, which is.

>> Roland Warren: Where we get the Greek word bios.

>> Roland Warren: Bios, which is physical life, where we get the word biology.

>> Roland Warren: For example, we physical life.

>> Roland Warren: And then he's also talking about Zoe, which is a unique type of spiritual life and only comes from a relationship with God. So what essentially Jesus is saying in John 10:10 is I came to link your bias to my Zoe, that you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound. Heartbeats that are heaven bound. Now when I looked at that passage.

>> Roland Warren: And then kind of looked at the lens of quote, pro life, what I.

>> Roland Warren: Realized was, wait a minute, you could be an atheist and be pro life, but you can't be an atheist and.

>> Roland Warren: Be pro abundant life.

>> Roland Warren: See, Jesus wasn't just pro life, he.

>> Roland Warren: Was pro abundant life. Well, how do we know that? Because he said so.

>> Roland Warren: Right.

>> Roland Warren: So pro life could be perspective, like saving the baby, if you will.

>> Roland Warren: But. But Jesus was focused on not just.

>> Roland Warren: Saving us now, but for an eternity. What he had as he walked the earth is people would come and with.

>> Roland Warren: Their bias needs, right? Physical need, you know, too much blood, too much money, too much pride, whatever.

>> Roland Warren: It would need, you know, sickness or illness.

>> Roland Warren: And he would meet them at their point of bias and call them into a Zoe relationship. And so when I started to think.

>> Roland Warren: About it that way, I realized that.

>> Roland Warren: There'S a uniquely Christian way of looking at the life issue that separates it from the politics. Because too often, see, the pro life narrative leads you to the polls, right? But a pro abundant life perspective leads you to the cross. It leads you to the cross. And oh, by the way, you can get to the polls, but what you bring to the polls is what you.

>> Roland Warren: Learned at the cross. When you go to the polls.

>> Roland Warren: First, you take what you learned at.

>> Roland Warren: The polls and you take it to.

>> Roland Warren: The church, which is a problematic thing. So a pro abundant life perspective is not just focused on just, temporal life, but it's also focused on eternal life. It's heartbeats that are heaven bound.

>> Roland Warren: And as God unpacked that for me, I realized that Jesus why statement, why he came, was that we might have life abundantly.

>> Roland Warren: So my why statement in terms of.

>> Roland Warren: Why I exist and then carrying it.

>> Roland Warren: As a ministry, our ministry approach should be focused on Jesus why statement. And that's why we are pro abundant.

>> Roland Warren: Life ministry as opposed to a pro life organization.

>> Roland Warren: We are a pro abundant life ministry that's linked to John 10:10, the why of that.

>> Roland Warren: And then you can kind of unpack.

>> Roland Warren: Like how do you get there in a practical sense? But that's the kind of overarching perspective that leads to that, that way of.

>> Roland Warren: Thinking about the life issue.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Roland, I love that heartbeats that are heaven bound. And you said so many things that are so thought provoking. I feel like I'm going to have to rewind it back and listen to it about four times to get all of the wisdom that you put in there. You're so right. I mean, any objective observer of science can the life issue and see what we know now that the fetal heart forms at three weeks, it begins to beat at five weeks. We have week six where we're witnessing brain and spinal cord development. And by week eight, we see sensory response. They respond to light, to speech, to music. And by week nine, all of those major organ systems are formed and growing. That is life in the womb. And then, you know, there's growth and maturation there, but life continues outside of the womb. And I want to go back to something that you've talked about before, and even in your own personal story, you were very clear about the fact that you and your girlfriend at the time, now wife, you were believers, you had moral clarity. You knew what you were, what you ought to do and what you ought not to do or what God's plan for was for you. And stepping outside of that. And I think there's a real discomfort and a disconnect because when we look at this from a political lens, it's almost like, oh, well, this doesn't happen in the church, or this is not happening, people of faith. But it is. It absolutely is. And that's why I love you pivoting us to look at the cross, not looking at. Is this going to the polls, but going to the cross. And so how does. How do you continue to, you know, look at the politics of that and separate that from. From the faith issues that surround it?

>> Roland Warren: Well, I think one of the key.

>> Roland Warren: Things for me, as I started to.

>> Roland Warren: Look at the politics of it, I mean, I'm not surprised that we are where we are if you let the political process kind of frame things. I mean, the political process by its.

>> Roland Warren: Very nature is about folks compromising convictions.

>> Roland Warren: I mean, think about.

>> Roland Warren: You have a political perspective and a conviction. I have a conviction about something.

>> Roland Warren: And then we, from a political process.

>> Roland Warren: We compromise the conviction.

>> Roland Warren: Right?

>> Roland Warren: Now, that's fine for issues that.

>> Roland Warren: Where there can be a middle ground, if you will, where you can say.

>> Roland Warren: Well, maybe we send the role through this way, as opposed to if you got an environmentalist versus somebody else. But when you're talking about life, you can't give somebody half a life or.

>> Roland Warren: A quarter of a life, like so.

>> Roland Warren: When you take an issue that's an absolute issue and you give it to a process by its very nature that's focused on compromising.

>> Roland Warren: Right.

>> Roland Warren: Absolutes, if you will, then you can see why we end up kind of where we are. So I think from a Christian perspective.

>> Roland Warren: Like, you don't lose the politics if you look at it from a pro.

>> Roland Warren: Abundant life perspective any more than m. maybe the best way to frame it.

>> Roland Warren: I frame it for people's. Jesus was given that coin and he was asked, should he pay taxes?

>> Roland Warren: He said, render unto Caesar. What is Caesar unto God? What is God's.

>> Roland Warren: Well, what did Caesar care about political.

>> Roland Warren: Power and material wealth? The political and the material right. But he said, there's a higher thing.

>> Roland Warren: Well, what is that higher thing?

>> Roland Warren: Well, it's living out the great commandment.

>> Roland Warren: To fulfill the great commission.

>> Roland Warren: Because that's all Jesus did. He lived out the great commandment to.

>> Roland Warren: Fulfill the great Commission.

>> Roland Warren: Well, here's the thing. If you're living out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission, you'll meet the material needs of someone in need, right? If you're living out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission, you'll be.

>> Roland Warren: Involved in the political process.

>> Roland Warren: Why?

>> Roland Warren: Because we as people of the Book are called to hold the government accountable.

>> Roland Warren: To be merciful and just and righteous.

>> Roland Warren: To who?

>> Roland Warren: Especially the vulnerable. Right. But you can be involved in like.

>> Roland Warren: Political engagement and material support without living.

>> Roland Warren: Out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission.

>> Roland Warren: But you can't be involved in living.

>> Roland Warren: Out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission without doing those other things. So I think one of the challenges.

>> Roland Warren: I think with the movement is that.

>> Roland Warren: If you think about what I was.

>> Roland Warren: Just saying, ah, it's a triangle where.

>> Roland Warren: You, at the top, you've got to.

>> Roland Warren: Live out the Great Commandments to fulfill the Great Commission. And on the two corners you've got material support and political engagement.

>> Roland Warren: We flip the triangle.

>> Roland Warren: And that's actually what you see in the pro life movement.

>> Roland Warren: People who are very involved in the.

>> Roland Warren: Political process, people who are very involved in material support through pregnancy centers and other things, critically important things.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: But the church leads the church so much. I'm going to hold you right there because we have a huge jumping off place there. We're up against a break here, but we'll be right back with more from Roland Warren. You don't want to miss this conversation. I'll see you right on the other side of this break.

Preborn's mission is to rescue babies from abortion and lead families to Christ

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Because of listeners like you, PreBorn helped to rescue over 67,000 babies. Your $28 to sponsor one ultrasound doubled a baby's chance at life. Your tax- deductible gift saves lives. Please join us in this life saving mission. To donate, go to preborn.com/AFR. this June 24 marks three years since Roe v. Wade was overturned. But here's what you may not know. Abortion numbers have surged to a 10 year high. The battleground has shifted from the courtroom to our homes. Today, over 60% of Abortions happen through the abortion pill. Taken in silence, often alone. PreBorn Network clinics are standing in the gap, meeting women in their most desperate hour. And here's what they're seeing. Young mothers, terrified, misled, are delivering their babies, tiny, perfectly formed, onto bathroom floors. These precious babies, ones called just tissue, now lie lifeless. 11% of these women who take the abortion pill will suffer serious health complications. Countless others carry emotional scars for a lifetime. When you give to preborn, you're not just saving a baby, you're saving a mother too. You're giving her hope, financial support and the truth. PreBorn has already rescued over 350,000 babies. But there are so many more who need our help. Your tax- deductible gift makes this mission possible. To donate now, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or go to preborn.com/AFR, that's preborn.com/AFR Preborn's whole mission is to rescue babies from abortion and lead their families to Christ. Last year Preborn's network of clinics saw 8,900 mothers come to Christ. Please join us in this life saving mission. To donate, go to preborn.com/AFR.

>> That's My King by CeCe Winans : Wonderful. And beautiful and glorious and holy. He is merciful and powerful. Who we talking about? That's my king. We declare the glory Give him all the honor all together worthy. Who we talking about? That's my king. There's no  one before you yes, we will adore you. All of this is for you.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That song is That's My King by CeCe Winans. And my kids know anytime you play CeCe Winans, I'm going to drop everything and have a praise party because it is just so encouraging, inspiring.

Roland Warren is president and CEO of Care Net and author of abortion book

And we are hearing today a, very encouraging and inspiring personal story. Forty years ago, as a college student at Princeton, Roland Warren faced a life changing decision. Abortion or life. And he and his girlfriend at the time chose life. And that decision shaped everything that followed. From boardrooms at IBM and Goldman Sachs to boardrooms of national pro family nonprofits. Roland has spent his life leading with conviction and compassion. And now as president and CEO of Care Net, he is sounding the alarm and offering hope through his new book, the Alternative to Abortion. And he is calling the church to a higher standard. Not just to be pro life, but to be pro abundant life.

Roland Warren talks about pro abundant life from a Christian perspective

And Roland, it's so wonderful to have you here today. And before the break you were on a roll and I hated to interrupt you and as my board operator says, sometimes live radio can be so rude sometimes and interrupt our conversation. But you were just in the middle of talking about how the church needs to, change the paradigm and looking at this and you propose this pro abundant life, consideration. And when we let politics lead, Roland, we see what happens. Politics are fickle and last November there was a lot of concern about the watered down platform that came from politics in response to trying to be, you know, garner political favor and do what they needed to do to get votes and all of those kinds of things. But when we focus on, when we focus on through a spiritual lens, it really changes everything. So I'm going to give it back to you and let you finish what you were saying before the first break.

>> Roland Warren: Yes, I appreciate that. And you know, it's really about changing, basically exchanging the pool that the.

>> Roland Warren: The podium for the pulpit. Right. Because a podium, it doesn't have a.

>> Roland Warren: Perspective, that's intrinsic. That's why when the president comes and speaks, they put a seal in front of the podium, which gives it a gravitas, a perspective.

>> Roland Warren: Right.

>> Roland Warren: Normally the president can speak from that.

>> Roland Warren: Podium with the seal, but when he.

>> Roland Warren: Leaves, take the seal. Well, a pulpit has a gravitas that comes from the seal of Jesus Christ. And it has a perspective that it should always communicate, which is the same.

>> Roland Warren: Yesterday, today and forever.

>> Roland Warren: So if you're a baby in the womb and you say, well, I gotta have somebody advocate for me, would you.

>> Roland Warren: Rather have the podium advocating for you, or would you rather have the pulpit advocating for you? Do you see?

>> Roland Warren: So that's why, as follows to the book. We have to make sure the church is leading on this issue, not following on this issue, which means pastors have.

>> Roland Warren: To lead, which means we, the body of Christ, must lead.

>> Roland Warren: So how do you do get to that framework where that, where it makes it distinctly Christian? And really, from a pro abundant life perspective, one of the ways I talk about this and I cover this in great detail, my book with graphics and other things, is that imagine that I had a roof that said pro abundant life, John 10:10. In order to hold that roof up, there are two pillars that hold the roof. The first pillar is God's design for family. And one of the things that God took me to, to help me understand the pro abundant life perspective and how it's different than pro life is the most celebrated unplanned pregnancy in human existence, which is the birth of Christ. When Mary faced an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective, she faced a similar dilemma as my wife. Now, the way she got pregnant was very different, but the practical consequences were the same. Hopes were her life, dreams were life, her life with Joseph that did not.

>> Roland Warren: Include a child at that way and at that time.

>> Roland Warren: And she, in that moment, what did she say? Let it be on to me, as you have said, and she chooses life. Well, my wife faced the same dilemma.

>> Roland Warren: So what God's call to her was.

>> Roland Warren: And for any woman is to tap.

>> Roland Warren: Into your inner miracle.

>> Roland Warren: Ascribe to yourself the virtue and the Character of Mary right now, for a.

>> Roland Warren: Lot of folks, they say, I got it.

>> Roland Warren: Okay, we're supposed to help the.

>> Roland Warren: Proverbial Mary's and save the proverbial Jesuses.

>> Roland Warren: But what did God do to make sure Mary's unplanned pregnancy wasn't a crisis pregnancy? Sent an angel to Joseph. And Joseph had a plan, which was to divorce her quietly, to put her away quietly, which back then was how you did an abortion because you couldn't put the baby away, so you put.

>> Roland Warren: The woman and the baby away.

>> Roland Warren: It was a cultural version of an abortion. Joseph was called. To do what? To be a husband to her and a father to the child growing inside of her. One man, two missions. Husband to her, father to the child.

>> Roland Warren: Growing inside of her. And when Mary was at risk, who.

>> Roland Warren: Did the angel go to? Joseph again. To provide, to protect. So what you see that God did for this woman facing an unplanned pregnancy, from a legal perspective, he didn't give her a baby daddy in a check.

>> Roland Warren: Or a government worker in a check. He gave her a husband for her.

>> Roland Warren: And a father for the child growing inside of her. And here's the thing, and this is why I try to tell people. When you see the narrative in the first chapter, first book of the New Testament, of the most celebrated unplanned pregnancy, from a human perspective, you see two sanctities. The sanctity of marriage and family and.

>> Roland Warren: The sanctity of life.

>> Roland Warren: The first thing the angel told Joseph was not to protect the Christ child, but do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. So you see those two together.

>> Roland Warren: And what we've done in the pro.

>> Roland Warren: Life movement, we delink those things. So we start focusing on the sanctity of life, but we disconnected it from the sanctity of marriage and families.

>> Roland Warren: 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried.

>> Roland Warren: Which means that if you don't link those two together, it's incredibly difficult to actually solve the abortion issue. And frankly, it's one of the reasons why my wife was less likely to have an abortion. Why she had a guy like Joseph.

>> Roland Warren: Who said, I'll be a husband to.

>> Roland Warren: You and a father to the child.

>> Roland Warren: Growing inside of you. So the first pillar of a pro abundant life perspective is God's design for family.

>> Roland Warren: And when a woman has that, guess what? She's more likely to give a child? Life. Bf, physical life. That's the first pillar.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, we don't often think about that when you think about Mary's perspective. But even as Jesus was entering the ministry and he was around the religious leaders. They brought that up. I mean, and you think about, here's Jesus in his 30s and they're still talking about how he was born. And hey, we know where you came from. We know the story that, you know, of your mother, that that was still there. And that's, it's really sobering perspective to think about Jesus dealing with that, although he was, you know, the son of God.

You're not telling pastors to lead politically, you're telling them to lead spiritually

But when you talk about the church leading in this, you again are saying not to lead politically because that's a common thing that I hear a lot of pastors saying. I don't want to get political. You're not telling them to lead politically, you're telling them to lead spiritually and to look at that as a gospel issue. So you've talked about the first pillars, the God's design for the family.

>> Roland Warren: What's the second God's call to discipleship. See, and that's in the last chapter.

>> Roland Warren: Of the first book of, the.

>> Roland Warren: New Testament, to make disciples. See, every good work that Christians do should lead to discipleship. And part of the reason I really believe that we're a pastor, so I can't speak about the life issue is because it's been framed through a political narrative, not through a discipleship narrative. For example, I had a thing I did with a bunch of pro life pastors in Texas some years ago and really informed me. I asked them, how many of you became pastors because you wanted to overturn Roe. Nobody raised their hands. Then I said, how many became pastors because you wanted to end abortion in your lifetime?

>> Roland Warren: Nobody raised their hands.

>> Roland Warren: Then I said, how many of you became pastors because you felt called to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, to make disciples of Jesus Christ, every hand shot up. What does that teach you? That unless pastors see their life as you primarily through the lens of a good work to lead to discipleship, it's something that they care about, but it's not the core mission of the church. And that's why you don't hear pastors.

>> Roland Warren: Saying, listen, I ain't going to talk about poverty.

>> Roland Warren: I'm not going to talk about homeless. I'm not going to talk about food insecurity, because Senator so and so or Representative so and so is talking about these things.

>> Roland Warren: The political process is talking about these things. Why?

>> Roland Warren: Because they view those issues as good works that lead to discipleship. So when you see someone facing an unplanned pregnancy inside and outside the church, your first thought shouldn't be, who do I need to vote for so she can't have an abortion or even what kind of material support she needs?

>> Roland Warren: Your first thought through a biblical pro.

>> Roland Warren: Abundant life perspective is she needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. The child growing inside of her needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. The guy who got her pregnant needs to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Then she becomes a mission field. And you ask the question, could it be that God is using this unplanned pregnancy in her life?

>> Roland Warren: To what end?

>> Roland Warren: That she might become a disciple of Jesus Christ. And that's not a stretch theologically. Why? Because God used an unplanned pregnancy in Mary's life. To what end? That she would become a disciple of Jesus Christ. That you would become one. I would become one. Anyone who's a Christian. Our entire faith is built on God's response to an unplanned pregnancy, which was linking God's design for a family and God's call to discipleship. That narrative is not a narrative that comes from the podium. That narrative is only a narrative that comes from the pulpit. Only the church of Jesus Christ has this framework, which is why the church must lead, pastors must lead on this issue versus the political class leading on this issue.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, when we rely on political solutions coming from the podium, as you describe, people are disappointed because even in a post roe world, we know that abortions are actually increasing, much of that due to chemical or medication abortions. But people come away feeling like, you know, the goalpost is always changing. And you know, we, we feel like we have victories or losses. But when you reframe this to look at a discipleship, discipleship issue, and then that is the goal that is really empowering. And those are goalposts, Roland, that don't change. Because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. And his truth is timeless. God's word is a firm foundation that we can set our lives on. And that's something that is really, that's encouraging to me.

How do you live out this pro abundant life viewpoint?

And so I want to go into what are some practical things. Okay. I think, you know, people are listening and thinking, okay, all right, I'm, I'm getting this, I'm catching the vision here. How do you make that vision a, ah, reality? How do you start to live this out, this pro abundant life viewpoint?

>> Roland Warren: Well, I think one of the key things, again, it's God's design for family and God's call to discipleship. One of the things that you have to understand is when a woman's making A pregnancy decision. She's making that decision from conception to birth based on the support that she has after birth. In other words, the issue is about nine months and one second. So if she doesn't have the physical, emotional, spiritual and social support, she's much less likely to have the abortion. So one of the practical things you do in terms of the narrative and how, the church leads is really having a proactive, ah, objective of reaching men and calling them into their inner Joseph.

>> Roland Warren: So we do that through our network.

>> Roland Warren: Of 1,200 plus pregnancy centers. So it's not just about reaching a woman, but about reaching a guy as well. And we've seen over the 12 years.

>> Roland Warren: I've been with Karen at the growth in numbers of men's ministry.

>> Roland Warren: So one of the things we desperately.

>> Roland Warren: Need is more mental to help in.

>> Roland Warren: Pregnancy centers to reach out to those.

>> Roland Warren: Proverbial Josephs while we're trying to help the proverbial Mary.

>> Roland Warren: So m, much of that work is not happening.

>> Roland Warren: And that's what we really need. So any man listening to this, we.

>> Roland Warren: Need you to tap into your inner Josephs to actually come alongside some guy.

>> Roland Warren: Who'S facing a pregnancy decision. Because, look, I grew up without.

>> Roland Warren: A dad, so when I faced the pregnancy, I mean, this is a temptation to run. You've never seen what a good godly father is, but maybe someone listening to this show. You've been a father for years. Will you mentor a young man who's struggling?

>> Roland Warren: Do you see the other thing that is a core piece of this is.

>> Roland Warren: A ministry platform we developed called Making Life Disciples. And basically the goal is to put small groups in churches that are trained to come alongside folks inside and outside the church who are facing pregnancy decisions. So that woman who's facing a pregnancy decision in the church that takes a.

>> Roland Warren: Pregnancy test on Sunday morning and the.

>> Roland Warren: Test is positive, but the news is negative, what ministry in your church is she supposed to call?

>> Roland Warren: Let me tell you something. Planned Parenthood's got a ministry for her.

>> Roland Warren: In Maricles right away.

>> Roland Warren: But if she doesn't know who she's going to call, it's very easy for.

>> Roland Warren: The evil one to make her believe that your church, my church, is going.

>> Roland Warren: To treat her like the woman caught in adultery.

>> Roland Warren: But you can't stone the woman without stoning the baby. So you come alongside her physically, emotionally, spiritually as she walks through that process. And frankly, even if she makes the abortion decision, we're still called to love her. I mean, Peter aborted Jesus. An abortion is a rejection of life for whatever means that you have. What did Jesus do? He restored him.

>> Roland Warren: Do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me?

>> Roland Warren: The other thing practically is that there are so many people sitting in pews who've had abortions and who are sitting.

>> Roland Warren: There saying, I can't even weigh in on this issue because I did that, like Peter.

>> Roland Warren: Well, we have ministries designed for men and women in the church who have made the abortion decision. Forgiveness that frees one of them.

>> Roland Warren: Reclaiming fatherhood is another. To help those men like Peter be.

>> Roland Warren: Called and missioned and motivated to make sure that others come to know Christ. Others facing pregnancy decisions actually can conceive from your story and learn from your story.

>> Roland Warren: So, I mean, there's many, many ministry platforms that we have at CareNet. You can go to care-net.org to learn more about Care Net or you can go to makinglifedisciples.com.

>> Roland Warren: And you can learn about the Making Life Disciples initiative.

>> Roland Warren: But imagine if when Roe was overturned.

>> Roland Warren: Instead of roughly 3,000 pregnancy centers, we had 100,000 churches that had ministries at the church so that someone facing a.

>> Roland Warren: Pregnancy decision could come there for compassion.

>> Roland Warren: Hope, help, and ultimately discipleship. Imagine what would have happened in the abortion decision. But since we asked the church not.

>> Roland Warren: To leave, but to follow, we didn't.

>> Roland Warren: Have that ministry platform. And so that's one of the things that Care Net as a ministry is really trying to encourage.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, when a woman chooses life, that is not the end of the story. That's just the beginning of the story. And you describe so well all of the holistic, wraparound support needs that she is going to have. All of those. Excuse me, excuse me. All of those practical needs like they need money for diapers, they need transportation to their appointments, they need help with childcare, they need all of. They need nutrition to be able to support the life of their baby. All of those things are going to be really needed. And I think one of the things that's refreshing to me in listening to you talk, Roland, is just your open conversation about this. And, you know, I'm hearing you share your own personal story. And from this has come a life mission, a ministry here. And I'm wondering how you even handle that with your own children. Because there's a lot of people who will make mistakes or have they in their past that are painful or that they don't want to talk about. And I see in a lot of communities of faith, it's really hard to just even get this conversation going. So how do we overcome the Shame and stigma that's there. And meet these women and their families at their point of need.

>> Roland Warren: Well, I tell you, one of the.

>> Roland Warren: Things that God put on my heart.

>> Roland Warren: Is the challenge of talking about this issue with my son.

>> Roland Warren: You know, wanting them to live a.

>> Roland Warren: Life that was different from what I.

>> Roland Warren: Lived, for example, as a young man, is that God gave me the insight that there's a difference between hypocrisy and growth. Basically, hypocrisy is telling your kids not to do something that you're currently doing. And growth is telling your kids not to do something that you once did. But God grew you through that process.

>> Roland Warren: And so that's what the issue is.

>> Roland Warren: So if you think about Peter going forward after he denied Christ, well, he grew.

>> Roland Warren: He would talk to people like he.

>> Roland Warren: Never denied Christ again. You think about Paul when he was Saul, becoming Paul going forward, what did he do?

>> Roland Warren: See, God uses all of those things.

>> Roland Warren: For our good and for his glory. So if you have an abortion, you pass. No, we don't want you like Peter.

>> Roland Warren: Going back to fishing.

>> Roland Warren: Right? That's like when the disciples were called.

>> Roland Warren: It was like, get by the disciples and Peter too.

>> Roland Warren: Why?

>> Roland Warren: Because Peter thought I'm not worthy. But yes, you are.

>> Roland Warren: God doesn't waste any of that. That's what the evil one wants. You to sit on the sidelines thinking that you don't have agency and a voice because of a decision you made. When you mobilize the church this way.

>> Roland Warren: And we start to be the disciple.

>> Roland Warren: Makers and view the life issue through.

>> Roland Warren: The lens of discipleship, it actually changes.

>> Roland Warren: And here's the thing. This is the power of it. Before Roe got overturned, I have people all the time, tell me, Kellen, when's Roe going to be overturned? I told them Roe was overturned every day. My wife overturned Roe 40 years ago.

>> Roland Warren: When she chose life, even though it was perfectly legal.

>> Roland Warren: It was unthinkable. Right.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, amen to that. I'm gonna hold you there again, Roland. There's so much to talk about. We're going to be right back with more from Roland Warren, author of the Alternative to Abortion why We Must Be Pro Abundant Life. Come back for more.

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>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Friend in Jesus by CAIN. And I'm so grateful that we have a friend in Jesus today. And we are talking today to another friend, a friend of the show, and. And we're talking about a pretty tough topic. And in a post Roe America, I know there are many people who are saying, what now? What do we do? And Roland Warren is here to give his answer.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: As president and CEO of Care

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Net, which is one of the nation's largest pro life ministries, he is challenging the movement to move from protest to discipleship and from being pro life to being pro abundant life. Now, he has degrees from Princeton and Wharton.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: He has a corporate pedigree.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: He has a heart for Christ and a personal testimony. And his leadership is reshaping this conversation. And his new book, the Alternative to Abortion, it's more than a manifesto. It's really not. It's a roadmap for cultural change, and it's rooted in scripture and truth and compassion. And we are so honored to have him here.

You talked about having an unplanned pregnancy and stepping in as father

And, Roland, we were right in the middle of talking about your own personal experience. Experience with this, in college, having an unplanned pregnancy, and now having a, beautiful family and a son who went on to graduate from Harvard and a wife who went on to graduate from medical school and have a very successful path ahead of her. What were some of those supports that you had during your own personal experience that made all of the difference? You talked about you stepping in as a father. What were some of those other practical wraparound supports that you have that you now are able to give to others in need of them?

>> Roland Warren: Well, I think it really is. I mean, at the end of the day, it's all the grace of God, you know, that's why, from my standpoint, even though Yvette and I made that decision, you know, I have a certain, compassion for folks who made the different decision. I can see how easy it is, to make the other. To make the other decision. And so, you know, whether you made the abortion decision or you didn't. You know, obviously if you made the abortion decision, there's a repentance that's needed. But frankly, there's repentance that, you know, my wife and I needed to do because we were engaging in sex outside of marriage, you know, and the consequences. And the consequences of that. And. And frankly, you know, there have been consequences of that. Even. Even that. Even my having the conversation with my sons, you know, I wanted both of my sons to save sex for marriage. It was very, to me a while when I had that conversation with them, I was just terrified that they're going to say, well, you tell us to do something that you didn't. Did. And that's when God downloaded the difference between hypocrisy and growth. So there's always consequences when you step outside of, you know, what God has called us to do. But there's always redemption, reconciliation and restoration when you align yourself back. And so, from my standpoint, the key to all of that was the relationship with God and then. And then our relationship with each other and God's design for marriage and God helping us despite difficulties and challenges and sin. All the stuff that exists in the context of human interactions, of really focusing on, you know, strengthening our marriage and strengthening, not by strengthening our marriage, our connection to each other, but strengthening our connection to God. Because I always think about marriage that way, which is why it's so central that it's a triangle where you've got the husband and the wife and you have God at the godhead at the top. If it's a triangle, well, if you grow closer to. If you both grow closer to each other. Excuse me, closer to God, you grow closer to each other and it becomes an equilateral triangle that's very stable. But you, by growing closer to God, you actually grow closer to each other. If you try to grow closer to each other, you create a triangle that's not as stable, if you will. So we really have tried to try to do that by God's grace. He's worked through our lives over 43 years to help us do that. So that's why for me, the centrality of marriage and the centrality of the church, which is the keeper of God's design for marriage, is so central. See, if you don't do this, what you end up having is a cycle of transactions. So, for example, if a woman's facing a pregnancy decision, right, you love her up and she decides to bring her child into the world, right? But she has not re linked motherhood, fatherhood and God's design for marriage. What you see too often is what she'll be back with a second pregnancy with the second guy or a third pregnancy with a third guy. Now again, that's pro life because she brought the child into the world. But that's not pro abundance of life. That's not God's design. I mean, Jesus met the woman at the well one time, right? And then she became a disciple who transformed. A, disciple who loved like Jesus, right. And helped others loved like Jesus. That's what should be happening in this context. And that's why the church is so central, because the church keeps that narrative of God's design for family and the centrality of marriage and connecting that marriage issue to the life issue in the way that's there. So that has been a strength for us. Being involved in a church family that supported us as a young married couple was really, really, really important.

>> Roland Warren: And I think the other reason why.

>> Roland Warren: The church is so important, as I mentioned, I, you know, I may not mention this, but I grew up without my father. So I grew up in a single mother home. My mother got pregnant the first time when she was 16, 17, had me when she was 19. By the time she was 23, my father was gone and she was living the life of a single mother. Now, I could have just repeated that narrative, but the thing that was the saving grace by the grace of God was that I went to church and I saw the pastor at church. I saw other married men at church. So as a little black boy, I had a vision of husbandhood and fatherhood. Even though I kind of derailed it a bit in terms of my activity, the reality is the thought of being a baby daddy as opposed to a husband and a father didn't. It didn't connect with me because I had a vision that was actually anchored in God's design for family that I saw in the church. And that's why these couples facing pregnancy decisions, it's so important for us to get them connected to the church, to be disciples who make disciples who live and love like Jesus so they can see God's design for a family as opposed to sending them back to a community where maybe they've been to more baby showers and wedding showers, you see? So you cast that vision so you can break the cycle.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, your lived experience is really powerful. You've walked that road. You have been there, you have walked in these shoes and, and praise God that you are here to help other people. And looking at, you know, the national narrative, it can be so divisive. And when we look at the pro life movement, it has been accused of hypocrisy because it prioritizes policies that ban abortion rather than policies that increase those practical supports for mothers and families. Much of what you were just describing, and in my view, you know, that pro life perspective means supporting really good quality of life across all stages. That might be access to healthcare or mental health services, or having, you know, caring about children who are born into poverty or those who have chronic illness, or even supporting the elderly with dignity across the lifespan. So how do we continue to change this narrative and lead with love, Roland, instead of, you know, retreating to our corners and having these bitter arguments, how do we lead with love and come together through unity in the church to provide discipleship, just like you're describing.

>> Roland Warren: Well, I tell you again, I know that could be a narrative out there with pro life. People just care about saving the baby and not caring about the longer term thing. And I can see if someone who's been in this work, that's an unfair characterization in so many cases. Our issue, frankly, is that we need more people involved in that. That's part of the challenge because of the need. So more people view this issue in a broader sense, and we need more people who are viewing it through a discipleship lens, and that's how you get more support. So we've got lots of people that are doing that amazing work. But the issue is we've got more people sitting in the pews at church who think that a pro life decision is connected to a vote, when the reality is that you should frame it differently from a biblical perspective. And here's what I mean by that. The pro life issue in a lot of ways is connected to living out the great commandment to fulfill the great Commission. It's actually sent the centrality of it. So when Jesus in, like, Luke, chapter 10, verses 27, a lawyer came in and said, what must I do to inherit the kingdom of God? And he said, love. And then you say what the book say, love God with all your heart, your soul, your strength and your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. When we look at that verse, the word for love is agapeo, which is sacrificial love. But the word for neighbor means near one and near fellow. In other words, you're supposed to sacrificially love your near one or near fellow. Now how's that connected to the life issue? And then what we do, well, the child growing inside the woman is her neighbor. It's her near one in terms of proximity, and it's her near one in terms of relationship. Right? And also for the guys that are pregnant.

>> Roland Warren: So what?

>> Roland Warren: You start thinking about the life issue that way, you realize that what I'm supposed to be doing is living out the Great Commandment and helping someone else live out the Great Commandment. But also it's the life that's just connected to the Great Commission. Why? Because what are we called to do in the Great Commission to make disciples of who our neighbors was a parent. Your first neighborhood is your children, right? Killing your children is not an act of discipleship. So therefore, abortion is a violation of the Great Commandment, but it's also a violation of the Great Commission, which is why Christians can't support it. Now, when you start thinking of the life issue that we threw in. So my role as a pro abundant life person is to help someone live out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. And in doing so, I'm living out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. That's what frames the issue and then links it firmly in the church. And that narrative, the Great Commandment and the Great Commission, again, it's not a narrative from the podium. It's a narrative from the pulpit. You see? So when you start thinking about that, gosh, okay, now, water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, you know, olives, homes for the homeless, all are Great Commandment Great Commission issues. And therefore, compassion for the pregnant becomes a Great Commandment and a Great Commission issue. And when you think about it that way, the life issue doesn't just come into the church menu, if you will, once every four years during an election cycle, or once a year during, a Sanctity of Life, you know, January or something. No saint of life is every day. There's not a sanctity of life Sunday. There's a sanctity of life every day. Why? Because every day as Christians, we're called to live out the Great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission in every area where we do good works. And the life issue needs to be reconnected to that. And I really believe strongly that's why God put this example in the first chapter of the first book of the New Testament, the most celebrated unplanned pregnancy in human history, in the first chapter of the first book of the New Testament to show us how should we handle an unplanned pregnancy? We should build a family as God designs, and we can help that family Become disciples who make disciples who live and love like Jesus. That's a pro abundant Life way of thinking about it. And I think that that resonates with most Christians as they think about the life issue in terms of what we aspire to do from a ministry perspective.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, and this is something that's all around us. I would say there's very, unlikely to be any. Anyone who doesn't know someone who hasn't been impacted by the issues that you're talking about. This is really convicting. When you wrote this book, Roland, you wrote it for those who have a desire to remain faithful to the gospel, but still meet that immediate need of saving babies from abortion. You wrote it for Christians who are frustrated that the church has been mostly silent and. Or maybe too political. And you wrote it for anyone who's just confused about how to make a positive difference on the life issue. What do you hope the readers of your book will take away from that and turn into action?

>> Roland Warren: Well, I'm a big fan of inspiration. It's like perspiration.

>> Roland Warren: It dries up. If you read the book or whatever, you hear this talk, you got to get to work. I mean, there's work that needs to be done, and the work is connected to making disciples.

>> Roland Warren: And, that's really the main thing for me.

>> Roland Warren: Changing your perspective to being pro abundant Life. Then as you work in the political process, you understand that's not the end goal. The end goal is for someone to become a disciple of Jesus Christ. That's where I am. And therefore, and this is why this is so hopeful for me, if you only view the issue through kind of a pro life perspective, then what happens is when we lose a referendum or when we lose an election or the candidate disappoints us, you go, gosh. But when you think about it from a pro above in life perspective, you realize that your actual work is the heart and that you can change hearts all the time and the gates of hell cannot prevail when that happens. So that's why I talk about, like, when did Roe get overturned? I mean, Roe got overturned over a series of decisions that individuals made because somebody said, set knee to knee with them and help them see that they need to live out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission in terms of this pregnancy that God has presented them, presented them with, and then they were loved in that. In that context. And that's a power that we have. That's what has always transformed the culture. And here's the other thing, too. The Politics, you hear this, the politics is upstream from the culture. Hear that a lot. But here's the thing. The culture, right, is upstream from the church. So if you lose the pews, you lose the polls, right? You lose the pews, you lose the culture, you lose the polls. So if you actually want the polls, guess what you got to do? You got to have the pews, which means that the church has to be leading on this issue. And that's why I'm so excited about this. Because I think as we do, that regardless of what political candidates may do or not do, the reality is the Church of Jesus Christ can end abortion the same way that we've done. Everything that we've done when we follow God, we've done it by focusing on God's design for family, God's cause of discipleship, living out the great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission in any area that, that, where good work is needed. When we view it that way, then the political narrative or material support narrative becomes. Becomes properly framed in the context of living out the great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Roland, thank you so much for joining us to share with us your personal story and your personal life mission that God has given you. If you heard earlier, he said you can go to makinglifedisciples.com that's making life disciples dot com. The need in your church is great. 54% of women having abortions identify as Protestant or Catholic. 4 out of 10 women were attending a church service once a month at the time of their first abortion. And five out of ten men. There is a need here. So go to makinglife disciples.com. you can also get a copy of the book Again by Roland Warren. It's called the Alternative to Abortion why We Must Be Pro Abundant Life. Thank you again, Roland, for your inspiration and the encouragement and the admonition that you have provided to us and to the listeners out there. I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. We'll see you here next time.

>> Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Author of "The Alternative to Abortion: Why We Must Be Pro Abundant Life" Roland Warren joins Jessica to talk about Care Net

Rx for Hope: Be Pro Abundant Life

https://rolandcwarren.com/