Hello, and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for Healthy. Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner. And mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Listen, we've got a big dose of hope and a very important topic to talk about today. We are going to talk about mental health. Now, you know, I've been talking about that quite a bit because it is real. The mental health crisis is absolutely real. And we know from scripture that in this world we will have trouble, but we can take heart because God has overcome the world. And all throughout the Psalms, there are scriptures that tell us of the depression, of the anxiety, of the desperation felt. And we can take hope in God's word even at a time when depression and suicide are rising at alarming rates. And suicide is among the leading cause of death in the United States, the second leading cause of death for young people behind accidents. Now, for Christians, and especially those who are in ministry, there is a lot of stigma around mental illness, and it often forces silence and shame and secrecy because we think, well, is this just an issue of faith? Does my faith need to be stronger? But God knows how he created our bodies. He created us body, mind and soul. And Julie Busler knows, knows this struggle firsthand. She is my guest today and she is going to share her powerful story about losing her mother to cancer and her father shortly after and her mental health struggles. She's written a book, Joyful Sorrow, and invites us into that journey and shows us how joy can coexist with sorrow when faith and mental health walk hand in hand. She has a new book, Hopeful Sorrow, and we'll talk about how do we bear these burdens. Well, Julie, thank you so much for joining us.

>> Julie Busler: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I am really grateful for you telling your story because it is so relatable. When we look at the numbers, we know this is something that impacts every family, whether directly or indirectly. And your story is really heartbreaking. But it's also hopeful and it's so encouraging to see people who have been through what you've been through and are standing on the other side to tell the story.

Can you tell us about your own journey with mental health

Can you tell us about your own journey with mental health?

>> Julie Busler: Yeah. So I grew up with my parents. They were both married my whole, like, their whole lives. And we grew up in a home where my mom took us to church. I Have two siblings, and then we just, like, would go home afterwards. There wasn't like a lot of discipleship or praying as a family. So I was basically like a moral person. I, believe that there was a God, but I didn't know him. So, She was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was 8 years old. And at 8, you're really old enough to know that something's wrong. But they didn't really explain to me this is what cancer is, what grief. Grief is what death is. It's okay if you're sad or any of that. because our home was really marked by emotional neglect, which I did not understand until probably five years ago. you just don't know. It's not normal if that's all that, you know. So she was sick. My whole, you know, upbringing. I went to college and then I came back after my freshman year and she actually died from cancer. And it was traumatic to watch. It wasn't. I handled in the healthiest way. Like, I didn't even know, like, hospice was a thing. So I'm, this brand new 19 year old, witnessing my mom's death. She dies in June, we bury her in July, and I'm back in college in August. And no one's checking on me. And I don't even know that I can tell anyone, like, I'm sad what's happened, because my childhood had just trained me just to pretend like I'm okay. And I was a ma. I'm still a master at that. I've learned not to do that. But a lot of us are really, really good at that, unfortunately. So I'm in college. I've become a true believer my senior year. I really fall in love with Jesus, but I'm a baby believer in many ways. I meet my husband, my senior year in college, and he did not know really what he was getting into. and I'm not sure any of us do at that age. But I didn't know how to tell him. All this trauma of emotional neglect and emotional and verbal abuse growing up and then watching my mom die. And my dad's very distant, like he provided everything financial, but there was no, like, I love you, I'm proud of you. No emotional connection. so I didn't know to tell him, my husband, that, because I didn't realize what was wrong with that. So, And like in college is when a lot of these, really passive suicidal thoughts began. I didn't know what they were. It was just thoughts like, I'm So tired I would be okay if I didn't wake up in the morning that kind of thought. And I was so depressed, but I didn't understand that I just kept this facade. I was so smiley and put together and finished, college with great grades. and I kind of thought depression looked like you just slept all the time. And, and sometimes it does, but sometimes it's very successful people who are great moms and wives who are secretly very depressed. So I meet my husband, we get married. I, haven't really told him because I don't really know how to tell him how I'm really doing. And shortly after I in my twenties and I've got a three year old, a one year old, and I'm pregnant with my third child. And I wake up one day to news that my dad has just died by suicide. And because I had not learned how to grieve, I just kind of went into the same mode of just kind of shove it deep down and pretend like I'm okay. but suicide's a whole different kind of grief. It's very complicated, it's traumatic. But again, I didn't know what to do with that. And so we buried him. and shortly after it would be like within the next year or so, my husband and I, we started to see like we're trying to grieve his death and we have hope in the Lord. we know that someday our last year will be wiped away in the presence of God. But there's a whole world out there that some don't even know the name of Jesus. And so God used my debt, my dad's death, just of despair, to really wake us up to go share life and to share hope in Jesus overseas. So we moved overseas as a missionaries to Turkey with our children. But mind you, I'm still very much traumatized. I still have not gotten any help for all that I've been through at this point.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh my goodness.

>> Julie Busler: Keep going.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes. You know, no, keep, keep going. I'm listening, Julie. I'm hanging on every word. This story is just, I mean, well, first of all, I'm just so sorry that you accept experienced this and then. Yeah. And then going all the way. I'll, I guess I'll take the opportunity to stop right here because first of all, like I said, Julie, I want to say I'm sorry that you experienced this. No child should ever have to grieve the death of their parent in that way. And I'm so glad that you brought up the term Even emotional neglect. Because so often kids who experience trauma, they don't have the words to describe it. So it's not like you were trying to intentionally hide something from your husband. It's not like your intent was to be deceptive. You literally don't have the words to describe your experience. And Julie, I'm sure you were like me, and I experienced some childhood trauma myself. And sometimes at some point, you're in a circle of people and you're telling some story about what happened, and you're just kind of relating this as you know that this is normal, this happened. And you look around the room, you look around the table, you look around the group, and everybody's face is just kind of like, And then you have this realization like, oh, wait, is that, Is that not normal? Like, did you not experience that? Is that, Is this not normal? And I think that can be a real awakening point for people to say what you experienced is traumatic. And the way that you're dealing with it is not a healing way, not of your own fault, but just because you weren't given the vocabulary or the tools to be able to do that. And so I think that's important at this point in your story to just kind of explain that for people and to see people who have experienced that. Because sometimes when you look in from the outside in, you can think, well, how did you not know that was traumatic? Well, if you haven't grown up like that, where you're just experiencing compound, complex trauma, you just haven't walked that. So, okay, let's go back. You're in Turkey. God is still using you, which I think is just a beautiful part of this story too, because he always makes beauty from ashes. But you're in trouble. So what happened next?

>> Julie Busler: Yeah, so God does always bring beauty from ashes. And even if I wasn't always feeling the hope that I was declaring, it doesn't mean that the hope in Christ wasn't true. And I've had to learn that, that I don't have to feel perfectly hopeful to still declare hope in Christ, because that's so powerful and it's still true. So I, we just, we learned the language, we, our kids were in school there. We ended up having our fourth baby overseas. And ministry was fruitful. And, you know, we had sold our house, our car, we had no possess in the United States. We planned on just living in Turkey forever. And then about six years in, you know, I just couldn't pretend any longer. And I didn't, I didn't want to Reveal what was happening in this way. It's just I, like, lost ability to hide. And so I ended up, being put in a psychiatric hospital in Turkey as a suicidal missionary. And how do those two words coexist? Suicide and missionary? But they do, because even missionaries are human. And I kind of felt like people can put a missionary or anyone in ministry up on this pedestal. we don't mean to do that. But then that made me feel like I can't really tell anyone once I really started to recognize how, dangerous my situation was, because how can we tell your supporters back home? I'm not sure I want to live anymore. so I kind of felt like I was trapped in my ministry, even though I loved the ministry. So eventually, I told a friend overseas, and she was a safe friend to tell because I watched her walk through hard things, but still walk in this wholeness in Christ. And I thought, okay, I want that. And so that made her safe. And I could relate to her because she wasn't just like, life is perfect. So I told her just enough where she was like, you should tell your husband that you're struggling. I don't even know what I said because it was such a scary conversation. But I told him enough where he made me an appointment with a doctor, a psychiatrist. And that doctor put me in a psychiatric hospital for several weeks before we were moved home pretty quickly. but we came home, and then we are this, like, one sent out family from our big church in the small town in Oklahoma. So it feels like everyone knows us and we're not supposed to be home yet. So then I'm. I've been stabilized before we came home, but I'm like, oh, no, what are people going to think? And so I'm just so ashamed. So I ended up just plummeting in the darkness back in another hospital. I mean, it was just. There are multiple hospital stays, and I really thought, there's no more ministry for me. God cannot use me anymore. I'm a failure at ministry. but God will intervene. And a lot of that story is in my first book, Joyful Sorrow, which is just a really broad overview of how I've come to terms with medicine and therapy are good gifts that we should access, but Jesus alone is always our hope. So that book is just about mental health in general. but then after I wrote that book and started seeing God use my story for good, I was really in therapy and where I kind of got this new vision for Hopeful sorrow. My new book, about four years ago, probably my therapist started to teach me about these childhood wounds, like emotional neglect or attachment trauma or, or just different, you know, like, what had happened to me? And so as I learned those things, I started to realize it's important to name out loud what we've been through to, like, own up, this is my story. and then I started to be flooded with grief at this point in the story. Like, look what's happened to me. now I'm having to grieve, really, for the first time, like what I wasn't given in childhood. And then I'm looking at my family now that I'm a mother of four children. And I'm starting to see some of these patterns repeat in my parenting that I received from my parents. And then there's grief in that. And so hopeful sorrow really started with me thinking, how do I grieve this in a godly way? What do I do with this grief? And that's really how this book was born, was from my therapist's office.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Julie, you're sharing a story that is not uncommon, that I'm sure there are many listeners who can relate to. And you think about this stigma and shame, especially for those in ministry, like you said. I mean, it's even uncomfortable to say those words together, isn't it? Suicidal missionary, you think, how can that be? But I think we have to acknowledge the frailty of our humanity and we have to give ourselves grace and space to be human. And sometimes, you know, that can come from a place where we think, okay, faith is enough, but we still are very real, fragile humans. And it's through our weakness that God is made strong, that. That God shows his strength. And, ah, it makes me. Your story makes me think of the prophet Elijah, who, of course, you know, is. If you know the Bible story, Elijah was a very powerful prophet in the Old Testament who confronted the prophets of baal, confronted evil King Ahab and Queen Jezebel, and had this big showdown, you know, where they tried to say, oh, our God will bring down fire. And then they don't. And then God brings down fire from heaven. And then all of a sudden, Ahab says, oh, well, I'm going to kill Elijah. And he runs away. And he says, okay, that's it, Lord, just take me to heaven. I'm done. And you think he went from that pinnacle of ministry to the depths of despair and that happens. But you know, the thing that I love about this Bible story is that God sent an angel and he gave him food, he gave him nourishment. He took care of his physical body before he even started to address those emotional issues. And when you're talking about emotional neglect, Julie, researchers are showing that emotional neglect is likely more psychologically destructive than even physical abuse. So we need to name that and claim that, too. Well, when we come back, there's lots more help and hope along the way. And again, just thinking about what God intended for evil. what Satan intended for evil, God intended for good. More with Julie Busler when we come back.

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>> Trust In God by Elevation Worship : Fail. He will never fail.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is trust In God by Elevation Worship And that's what we're talking about today. How do you trust in God, even when it seems like your world is falling apart, Even when it seems like the worst things have happened? And there are many of us who carry wounds from childhood, those feelings of being unloved, unseen, uncared for. And they quietly shape the way that we relate to others and even to God, sometimes without us even realizing that the impacts of childhood trauma are real. I'm talking today to Julie Busler about her newest book, Hopeful Sorrow, which takes readers into her own story of childhood trauma and neglect. We're talking about some tough things today, but things that are common to the human experience and things that may give hope to those of you who are listening. Maybe in your own story, or maybe in the story of someone close to you. If you're listening. In the first segment, Julie shared her story of her mom being diagnosed with cancer when she was just 8 years old and watching her life be taken by cancer, and then watching her father take his own life, and then dealing with the trauma of that, arriving as a missionary for children in Turkey and finding herself in the depths of despair, hospitalized for suicidal thoughts, for depression. Julie, I'm so grateful that you have shared this story so transparently because it does happen. And you are such a beautiful testimony of how lament can help us transform sorrow into hope. And you share that through your testimony. But you're also. You also have some practice, practical tools for those who are facing hidden pain or breaking destructive family patterns, or learning to trust in God as a loving father who offers healing and security. And I know in my own healing journey, I knew that it wasn't enough just to say, okay, I acknowledge this. This is happening. You have to have a new mindset and a new skill set.

How do you describe that tension between where joy and sorrow meet

And I think to start with that, you look at the fact that joy and sorrow coexist, and that that just sounds almost impossible. But how do you describe that tension between where joy and sorrow meet?

>> Julie Busler: Yes, I remember it was probably like over 10 years ago that, my dad had died. And I was trying to reconcile this myself because I was like, the Bible says that we are people of joy. but I feel so much sadness, so I don't know how that works. And I was reading in 2nd Corinthians 6:10, where Paul describes himself as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing. And it was like a light bulb moment. Like, wait a second, if the apostle Paul is saying that he can be sorrowful yet always rejoicing at the same time, maybe those can coexist. And then I started to, you know, really dive into this. And I thought, you know, joy is a fruit of the spirit. It comes from, like, our connection to Jesus and the Spirit in us. It's this overflowing, supernatural fruit that grows from us. So it's not dependent on our circumstance. And so I can't really explain it, but it's this mysterious thing from God where we can be sorrowful because our life on earth is broken and there is sorrow. Yet as a believer, as a child of God with the Spirit in me, there's this supernatural joy that can coexist. And it really comes from Jesus is the treasure, when he's the treasure, that joy is there, even in the midst of loss and sorrow.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I completely agree. And you can tell I have scoured the Bible, scoured the Scriptures for stories that are relatable. And another story that I really relate to is Joseph in the Old Testament, who has extreme family trauma, you know, his brother selling him into slavery. And years later, when they are reunited, I think Joseph is joyful to see his brothers, but there's also great sorrow. And one of the scriptures that really caught my eye was that he had to retreat to another room because he was overcome with emotion. Now, I don't think he was overcome with happiness because, you know, I think that he would have shared that in the moment, but I think it was that moment where that tension of joy and sorrow meet. And, And then, of course, we know that reflected in how Christ gave his life. And we even sing that song where joy and sorrow meet because we're so grateful for the life that Christ gives us, but so sorrowful for the way that he had to die for our sins. And I think that just being in that place and. And here you are, new baby, but also hospitalized. Joy and sorrow, those things are there. And I think that there's a similar tension between faith and mental health, where people can tend to oversimplify mental health and make it all faith or oversimplify it and make it all brain, all body, all clinical.

Where is the tension and where our faith intersects with our mental health

Where is the tension and where our faith intersects with our mental health? What has been your experience? What have you learned?

>> Julie Busler: Well, at first, before I went to the hospital the first time, I really think I thought, if I have enough faith, I'll be okay. This, was. I mean, this was in 2016, 17, 18, when we really didn't talk about mental health even back then as much. and then I'm in the hospital and they're putting my medicine, and, and I'm starting to see some stabilization. So then I kind of swing where I'm like, okay, just give me some medicine. I'll be good. because I hadn't really been taught this. So then my second hospitalization, that's where I was just like, you know, God's done with me, he's abandoned me, whatever. and three times he repeated Psalms 23 to me. So I'm sitting there at the depths of despair, and I have some church friends come, and I'm kind of like, oh, great, the church ladies. What are they going to say to me? And one of them just briefly said, I think you're in the valley of the shadow of death, and the word is alive and it's active. And something about that Psalm 23 just kind of like, lit a little spark of hope in me. So they left, and another patient was sitting by me, and she got up and walked past me and said to no one, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. And I was like, what? Because that finishes that verse from Psalm 23. And the next. The next morning, the doctor is going to see me for the first time. And out of nowhere, he looks at me and says, julie, do you know Psalm 23? And something in me, just like, it's miraculous. I cannot even describe it, but something was like, oh, my goodness. You know, God's presence is in churches, but it's also in a psychiatric hospital, because the sheep know where the shepherd. The shepherd knows what the sheep are, and the sheep know the shepherd's voice. And so that was the most alive I had felt in a long time. So, yes, medicine was helping me, and the. The therapy that I had started was kind of starting to help a little bit. But at that moment, I was like, but I have to have Jesus, because medicine, it's good, but it doesn't produce fruit. The medicine will never give us peace and joy like the Holy Spirit will. So then that's how I kind of started to reconcile, okay, these things are great for my body, my mind, like, my nervous system's out of whack, but my salvation and my hope and my joy is in Christ alone.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I think you're absolutely right. It has to be a holistic approach. It has to be a both. And. And anyone who's walking through that just needs to pray and seek the Lord and ask him to guide that treatment. Because there may be medical needs that you have. I mean, there may need be medical resources that are in place to literally save your life and keep you safe in the moment. But there also is spiritual healing that has to happen. There also is an emotional healing that has to happen. Going back and discovering vocabulary to be able to describe what happened to you and to be able to process that to heal it. I think so often we just. We just can't absorb all of that in the moment. And if you tried to step back and think of the whole of your story, Julie, everything that happened to you, that's enough to send anybody to their knees, you know, that's enough to knock the strongest person over for sure. And I think it's God's grace that he allows our brains just to process that a little bit at a time. And right here, I want to pause and I want to talk about your family, because I think that it must have been so scary for your husband. I think it must have Been so scary for you, for your kids. How did you welcome your family into this journey? How did you walk alongside? What was. What was their journey like? While you're trying to get better, you're. You're trying to heal and do all of the things that you need to do. What was it like? And the. And the, the ecosystem of your family.

>> Julie Busler: Yeah. So, you know, my. My poor husband, he was just shocked, whenever I first went to the hospital, because. Completely blindsided, had no idea. and his dream is, in passion, is to be an overseas missionary. And mine was too. But he's, like, uniquely designed for that life. So he. He chose to come back to America to help me get help, and we've stayed here. And so, in a sense, he has laid his life down for his bride. And this is such a picture of Christ for me, because my husband's not perfect. but he has been an advocate for me. He has had to take me to get help whenever I wasn't able to. He hasn't told me, you know, like, it's is your fault. Like, why. Why can't you just be stronger? And he's given up his dreams because he loves me that much. And God has now shown us all this purpose that he's brought from this. But we didn't see that for a while. For a while we're like, what. What's God doing? And my children were so young, when this happened. Like, my youngest, who's nine now, was like, like, not even two. And so my oldest is 18 now, but he was still young as well. So I'm like, how do I tell my kids? I don't want to scare them. This story's a lot, but it's also the story. So I just learned to answer questions very honestly and truthfully, but just what they ask. and of course, the conversation of suicide came in pretty early because their grandpa died by suicide. And so I remember, like, my. My oldest son was like 6 or 7, and he's like, where's. Where's your dad? And so I, I would just use vocabulary that's, you know, age appropriate. But I don't lie to them. So, as they've gotten older, they've heard me speak, and as their friends have been struggling, I think that they've seen, the beauty of our story. my oldest son had a little bit of trouble at first, like, as a freshman, where he's like, I mean, this is a hard story to have your parent be telling the world. And I have grace for that but he had a classmate in his life. And then that kind of changed my son's perspective because he's like, people need hope because all of us are touched by suicide. And so, there's sorrow in our family story. But I think my kids are finally seeing the truth of it and the fruit of it. And that's their story too. So it's been a hard story, but God has protected them because God gave them the same testimony, you know, and so I have to believe that God will protect them through it and help them use it in their own way.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Julie, you've used, the phrase but God so many times in our conversation. And that is really where the hope is. But God, because what is the alternative? That somehow we'll find our own self help journey where we can gradually feel better and feel like we've had some, you know, overcoming of those, of those obstacles? Or is it that God knows us, he is going to use our story for our good and for his glory. And somehow in a way that we don't understand, he will make all things right. He will restore, he will redeem, he will renew. He will make beauty from ashes. That's the story that I'm going to hang on to. And I know there's been times in my own children's life, Julie, where I'll think, I wish this wasn't your story. Like, I wish that you didn't have to bear this burden. But like you said, this is what God has given us. This is the path that he has given us to walk. This is the story that he's given us to steward. And I wonder, Julie, if you look back at your own journey in childhood and see what you didn't have, and for whatever reason your parents weren't able to provide that, but the, the support that you lacked when you were experiencing all of that trauma and then seeing your children experience some traumatic things, but being able to change that story and to have the support and to be there in the ways that you need to be there for them. Do you ever look back at that contrast and how does that make you feel?

>> Julie Busler: Yeah, I do. A lot. A lot right now. and that's really kind of another reason I wrote this book is because I was being confronted with so much grief. Each new milestone that my children hit, I would look back and compare it to my childhood. And sometimes it was the first time that I was understanding, oh, that wasn't healthy for me in childhood. and I suspect this will be an ongoing grief journey. Like when one of my. Like, one of my daughters. They're teenagers now, but if one of them gets married and I watch her pick out her wedding dress, I'm guessing I'm going to think back to when I went alone to get my wedding dress, because her guys soon will have, like, lots of women there, and we'll be celebrating her, and it'll be so joyful and hopeful and full of redemption. But there will also be sorrow, as I remember. Man, that's so sad that I didn't have that. And so that is where lament has come into the story. It's just telling God exactly how I feel. Lord. Like, why is this my story? Lord, this is so hard. It's so sad. But lament comes back to a place of hope and trust in his character and his promises. Lament is not just saying all this, These bad things that are happening. It's getting out the sorrow, but it's doing something. It's renewing our hope in God. So lament is my. My outlet. But then part of the book has been if there's been relational wounds, relational trauma, like, I have. Like a lot of us have. It feels very foreign to go to God as a father and tell him how you feel. And so at first, I was like, yes, I have grief. I'm gonna lament. But wait, that feels weird. I don't want to. I don't even think to, because I never even think to tell a dad how I feel. So then I've had to learn, well, what are the hindrances that are gonna help me to be a better mother, to break these cycles? And that is learning what happened to me in childhood, learning how I fear abandonment, learning how I was neglected, and then lamenting that grief as I am now implementing new ways of doing things with my children that I didn't have.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: What a beautiful testimony you have, though, Julie, because your children are seeing you work this out in real time, just as you're describing it to me. That's the process that your children are seeing, that in this world, we will have trouble. But here's the hope that I can take in God who loves me and God my father. Yeah, we can go to God, our father, who loves to give. Give good gifts to his children, who loves to, to redeem and to restore and to renew. I say those things all the time, because that has definitely been true in my own story. And, Julie, another thing I really appreciate is just you being honest with your kids, because, you know, sometimes we think, oh, well, we want to shield them from some of the things that are happening. And you did that. You shielded them from the details that they didn't need to know until they were developmentally ready. But God designed our kids to know us very intimately. They know when something's wrong. So being able to give them vocabulary that you didn't have, and to say, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling down today, I'm feeling a little hopeless, but here's where I find hope. And using that. But here is how I'm coping. Here are the things that we are doing. Here is where we're going to be different. That is the building blocks of resilience. And Julie, I really want our listeners to hold on to that, because when we experience childhood trauma, it releases this cascade of stress chemicals in our brain that are like a toxic sludge. And when we don't have resilience factors, then it can really be hard to undo that. But for you and for your kids, you're literally rewiring their brain. Brains for resilience. You are changing the way that their DNA is read and transcribed, and you are helping them heal from trauma even as they are experiencing it. And that makes me want to cry. That gives me a lot of hope. Listen. We'll be right back with more from Julie Busler author of Hopeful Sorrow.

Dr. Michael Kruger: Heresy has a multifaceted dimension

We do not grieve as those who do not have hope. Help and hope and healing. On the other side of this break. Don't go away. Here's Dr. Michael Kruger from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks.

>> Dr. Michael Kruger: You know, heresy has a multifaceted dimension about it. It can develop from a number of different sources. It can have a number of different causes, as simple as misunderstanding a passage of scripture so profoundly that one deviates from the faith. It could be driven by personal gain, where someone wants to advocate a view that helps their own agenda. Heresy can derive from someone being deceived and tricked by an outside source or an outside teacher that convinces them something's true, that isn't And so, ultimately we would argue that there is spiritual activity behind all those things, that Satan is out to deceive and trick the church. And so he is always churning up debate and, churning up disagreement about the person of Christ and the nature of the gospel and so on. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.

>> Somebody Prayed by Crowder: Every night there by your. Bed, you fold your hands and bow. Your head throwing out another prayer in faith. When you're wondering if he's hearing you look at me, I'm living proof.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm Only right where I am today because somebody prayed Welcome back, friends. That is Somebody Prayed by Crowder. And somebody is praying today. And I want you to know that somebody, somebody is me. I am praying for you, my listeners. Julie and I prayed before the show starts. We are praying that God would heal whatever hurt it is that's in your heart, and that he would open your eyes to see a path forward for healing, for restoration, and a way to hold hopeful sorrow. That is the name of Julie's new book where she's sharing her own story of childhood trauma and loss. And when we look at people who experience trauma and loss and the mental health impact that are there, the church has really long struggled to respond well to mental illness. And it often creates circumstances where people just suffer in silence and they wear a mask and they look fine on the outside, but inside, they are really hurting. And Julie Busler believes that when science and faith come together, that lives aren't just stabilized. They're saved and transformed with true hope. She is the Oklahoma Women's Missionary Union president. She's a wife, a mom of four, a survivor of depression, post traumatic stress disorder, and suicidal ideation. And she is sharing her story very boldly to encourage others. That's you. To seek help and hope. She has two books, Joyful Sorrow and Hopeful-ish Sorrow, where she's challenging stigma and modeling for us vulnerability and a healing journey and pointing us toward a God who meets us in our deepest pain. And, Julie, I think this is such a relatable topic. People either have walked this journey themselves or they know someone who is walking it. And I want you to talk about a little more about how those unhealed wounds impact our view of God. And how do we begin to trust God as a loving father, even when maybe we don't have that earthly example?

>> Julie Busler: Yeah. So, I didn't even realize how my. My view of my parents, my dad specifically, was showing up in my relationship with God. I would, like. I knew what the Bible said, and I would even teach others about that. But then I couldn't recognize how there's this block for me personally. But now it's just. It's so obvious to me. And so I wish I would have learned sooner and more about, like, emotional neglect. So, like, if my dad, if he isn't one who's like, no matter how I behave, Julie, I love you. I'll never leave you. But rather for him, I tell a story in the book how I wanted to get a job, in college at a coffee shop, but he didn't want me to. And so he said if I did that, I need to find a new dad. He's no longer my dad. I'm no longer his daughter. And I don't share that to disrespect him. But I just want to relate to others in that, that I know lots of parents will use this fear of abandonment as like a tactic to control their children. And so, I'm think I'm learning that if I don't do what he says, he will leave me. That's, like programmed in me. Like it's this blueprint for how I look at God. And so then I started to think, well, what if I don't do something right for God, he's going to leave me. And then I would read, well, he never, he'll never leave me or forsake me. and the Holy Spirit doesn't need modern psychology to convince us of that. Truth. Truth. But it, there's still something in me that is pulled towards how I was treated in childhood. Like there's a battle still. So my first reaction might be, God's going to leave me. He's going to abandon me. I'm not good enough. And then because I am in the word, we have to be in the Word, I'm reading the truth, God will never forsake me. And now therapy has taught me to see how I am projecting my relationship with my dad onto God. So I'm seeing that, that I'm reading the truth and I'm putting it together and I'm realizing, okay, I'm saying this about God because of my behavior and my experience with my dad. But the truth is God will never forsake me. And that's just one example of like a bunch where I believe that my childhood has really affected how I view God. And you know, if there's this like relational trauma, like with my dad, these relational breaks, then we need relational repair. It's for these like, safe relation relationships with people. Now that I'm learning what safety is, what real love is, what consistent, safe companionship is. And just, I mean through my husband, through some best friends, through my in laws, through my therapist, and as I am with them, it's really highlighting what I didn't have as a child. And so it's kind of rewiring my experience. I'm learning what it feels like to just relax and be safe with people because this relational repair is happening. Well, I believe that lament can be an aspect of that with God, because lament is turning to God in hope, telling him how you feel. And God is always faithful. We know that he will always be faithful to us. And so then you are experiencing the safety in relationship, which I believe is this relational repair with God that will. Will challenge this relational trauma with my dad, if that makes any sense. Sense.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: It absolutely does. And seeing that relational repair happen, primarily you and God, your relationship, and then translating that relational repair to your children and to your family, I think that's beautiful. And, you know, one of the things that bothers me so much, Julie, is how we stigmatize mental health over physical health. So imagine that you've been having some physical symptoms. Maybe you've been having some fatigue or, just, you know, other things. And then you go in and you're diagnosed with cancer. And then you come m home and you tell your family this is what happened. Imagine if your family acted like, well, why didn't you tell us that? Well, why didn't you just pray more? Maybe you wouldn't have gotten cancer. I mean, it sounds so ridiculous, but that's what we do with mental health. You know, we think, why didn't you tell us? Why? Why can't you just be stronger? Why can't you just overcome it? And sometimes we just, again, I think, have to accept that in this broken world, our bodies are not superhuman. We cannot handle the kinds of trauma that you experienced, Julie, and go on. But we can know and help. Ah, help scripture to help us reframe the world as we see it. And I know I do this with my kids because, Julie, I have the same fear of abandonment. And I have the same, you know, ways in which childhood trauma has broken the world in which I look at. But my kids know that.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: And they. I see that even like you talked about, as they go through different milestones and you get to a different place as a parent, it gives you a new perspective. And you think, oh, so this is. Oh, this is. This is a loss that I didn't even know that I had something I want to give to my kids that I didn't even have there. But I can be transparent with my kids about that and just say, yeah, this is really hard. But here's where I find hope in the healing. And they know that we can walk that burden together. And so I see that relational repair between you and God, that relational repair between you and your family.

What about the relational repair with you and the church? Was there a way that church was hurtful or helpful

What about the relational repair with you and the church? Was there a way that. That the church was hurtful or helpful? And what do you think the church can do better in supporting people, Especially those people who are in ministry who are experiencing crises like yours.

>> Julie Busler: Yeah. So I do want to say with my kids, it still can be a battle to be honest with them. my first inclination if, like, something's gonna make me cry. I don't cry often is to go, like, hide in my room. And my husband has gently said, sometimes, like, they need to see you cry. And so I am choosing to let them see the real me. But it is an active choice because the one who changes the whole trajectory of the family, like, I'm the cycle breaker, which then I hope, like, my kids, with their children, it'll come naturally. so I think sometimes it is still hard, but I'm choosing like you. Like, we have to choose to do things differently. But as far as with the church, you know, God really shielded me in that way. And I know that's not the story for everyone, because I hear from people all the time about hurtful church interactions, but specifically with one lady. So we've been back from. We came back from Turkey. I didn't tell anyone why I was home for a few years. A few people knew. So perhaps the church, my church, could have come to me and said, hey, like, why are you home? Can we help you more? But I kind of just, like, coasted back into life. So that may have, you know, that could have been done, like, a little bit better, perhaps. But I finally did a few years, thought, well, I better do something. I should be serving in the church. I'm doing nothing thing. So I joined the women's ministry team. And this was during COVID and we were trying to plan the, online event for that year. So our team, they wanted to have three women share their stories of hope with the online presence, since it's normally a, you know, in person event. So they were talking about different women, different age groups who could share. And I knew that I was supposed to be one of those voices. And I fought God. And I'm sitting there like, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it because I told. I told my husband, I will never share my story story, which is so funny. So I lean over to this lady next to me who didn't even know why I was home. And I stuttered really fast. I just said, what if I tell my story of being in a psych hospital? And if, she would have looked at me and said. And said, oh, honey, we don't do that. I would have closed my mouth and never said another word. I Was so scared. And she looked at me and doesn't even know the story and just said, I think you should do that. So I sat there quietly and didn't say a single word. And finally she goes, goes, julie has something to say. And so I told them, and the team was like, yeah, do it. And then they filmed my little testimony. I shared it. I thought, check the box. One time I was. I was obedient God. And from that, just snowballed into what this is today. But that one woman's response of you, should do that, It. It really changed the course of my life. And so I just. Just. God was so gracious because I'm so timid and shy naturally. And just my childhood makes me, like, where I don't want to be in front of people. I. I want to appear perfect. And so I don't know if I would have done this if. If someone in the church wouldn't have said, julie, you should do this. So that's been my experience. But I know a lot of people are just told, just, just be stronger, just be happier. You know, have more faith. Or they just go into the church and they feel so alone. So I think that the more we build this culture of community, of, let's be real, we all are broken, we all need help. and the more that church leaders are educated in looking for signs of mental health issues, like, does this person, do they just need prayer and encouragement or do they need a hospital? Like, there's a whole spectrum. So I think that the more that the churches, the leadership, is just aware of what to look for, that can save lives and make people feel more comfortable to share their stories. Stories, you know, within the sanctuary at church, you're.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You're talking about saving lives, saving souls. And I think that is just such the. The grace of God and using your story, because that is so often the story of people I have sitting across the microphone from me, Julie, who say, okay, I never intended for this. I was never going to share my story. I'm not a public speaker. I'm thinking again of Moses saying, no, Lord, I'm slow of speech, like, don't make me do this, this. But God uses our weakness for his, for our good and for his glory. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And I'm grateful for your story of how that woman's response really changed everything. And who knows? You won't know this side of heaven, Julie, how many lives are saved by your testimony? And I go back to the story of Joseph and think you know what? Satan intended for evil, but God intended for good, for the, the saving of many lives. And I think, I'm sure when Joseph was living this out, he didn't think, oh, my story is going to be in the Bible and people are going to read it for thousands of years to come. Just like I'm sure you didn't think, oh, my story is going to be in two books and I'm going to share it with thousands and thousands of people. Well, what encouragement would you share, Julie, for those who are in the trenches with you of generational trauma who say, that's me, I'm the cycle breaker. And it is hard and I'm committed and I want to do it, but it is really, really hard. What hope do you hope that they will find from your book? Hopeful Sorrow?

>> Julie Busler: I hope that they'll get help, professional help. Honestly, I've, I've had to have a therapist help me to understand all of these things and why I feel insecurely attached to people. And, I'm maybe using these therapy type words, but I literally knew none of this several years ago. And for me, knowledge is power. And so once I can understand why I'm acting a certain way, then I have some more grace for myself. Actually, I can say, okay, hold on, this is from childhood. Let's take a deep breath. And I do have coping skills for this. so I, I mean, get help. That's like my number one thing. And then also stay connected to Jesus because as you're learning these things, we have to know the character of God. Like, that's, that is everything. and then just to remember, like, like the enemy, we have an enemy. And he does not want you to break the cycle. Someone has to do it and he does not want you to do it. And if that's you, God has chosen you. And for all we know, your, you know, your endurance and you fighting for your life will mean that your children, great grandchildren and so on will come to know the Lord. Because you doing that today could be, could mean their salvation in a hundred years. because our family, there's a lot of power in, and how our ancestors were raised and what we learned from our grandparents and stuff. And so, you know, someone's got to change the line. And if it's this person listening, I'm so proud of them. And I just pray that they will get help and stay connected to Jesus and to other people who are safe for them to walk this path with.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think about the scripture that, that God will keep his covenant of love to a thousand generations, to those who love him and keep his command. And even though we. We see the pain of generational trauma that happens, and we think, you know, there's a lot of that that won't be resolved this side of heaven. And maybe, Julie, that that's certainly true from your story because your mother died from cancer, your father passed away. There's no more of that story on this side of heaven. But looking to the future and thinking that one day you may meet great, great, great grandchildren who came to know the Lord because of your story, because of your faithfulness, because of your submission to God's will. That is something that is absolutely amazing. And I'm just, very, very grateful for you sharing your story. And I hope for our listeners you have gotten hope to trust in God as your heavenly father, to trust God as a loving father. And joy and sorrow really can coexist even in. In the darkest places. And what if the wounds of your childhood are shaping how you see God today? And what if it impacts the way that your family will be healed tomorrow? I thank you so much for listening in. And I pray wherever you are in your journey, if you're a cycle breaker or if you're in a family that is thriving because of someone who came before you, I pray the Lord will bless you, keep you, and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you and give you peace. The book is Joyful Sorrow and Hopeful Sorrow by Julie Busler I'll see you right here next time.

>> Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Julie Busler joins Jessica to talk about facing and processing childhood pain with hope and forgiveness.

Rx for Hope: Trust God as a Loving Father

https://www.juliebusler.com/