Thanking Our Sponsor Preborn and Their Impact on Saving Lives
Dr. Jessica Peck We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR Candace talks
about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by PreBorn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside. I mean that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom. Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love.
Preborn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine? Today these life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most centers can afford. Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Doctor Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here
on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for healthy families. And today we're going to talk about something that's really tough but a place where you can find hope even in the middle of great grief.
Understanding Grief in a Culture Uncomfortable with Expressing Loss
Now we live in a culture that is increasingly uncomfortable with grief and if we're really honest, we see really unhealthy expressions of grief. Maybe we see over sharing on social media and then we see under sharing and then we see judgment of other people's journey of grief as their living that out on social media or not living that out on social media. There's just such a transparency there and a lack of grounding and how to grieve well. And so often people who are grieving are encouraged just to move on, get back to normal, stay busy or find closure or just use their own strengths and abilities to make sense of the tragedy and just put those difficult emotions behind you. And even well meaning people, often we don't know what to say when someone loses a loved one instead of Just being present. And we feel like all of a sudden, it's a pop quiz for us. And are we going to say the right thing, give the right Bible verse, be the wise sage in the moment? And that is not often what God calls us to do. And we have to know that grief doesn't follow a schedule. Even since learning about the stages of grief, as many people are well aware, those stages don't often occur in a linear fashion. That's very organized and predictable. It's a messy, looping, back and forth kind of journey. And perhaps one of the most difficult things about grief is just. It's randomness. You may think that you're moving on, and then all of a sudden something happens and a wave just washes over you. But for Christians, grief presents another really profound tension. We believe in, a good and sovereign God. We believe in the hope of the resurrection, and we believe that death does not have the final word. And yet we still hurt and we cry and we grieve and we ask questions and we don't understand. And we have to learn to live in a world looks completely different than it did before our loss. And we don't understand it fully. So today's conversation is about what happens when grief doesn't simply visit us. It's not just a season. It changes our life here on earth. Our guest is Dr. Dave Keehn
Introduction to Dr. Dave Keehn and His Journey Through Grief and Faith
He's a co author with his wife Debbie, of a book called Living in the Shadow of grief. Enlarging your capacity to grieve with hope. Those last two words are so important. And Dave and Debbie lost their son Adam to a brain aneurysm when he was just 24 years old. This was an unexpected and devastating loss that forever changed their family. And Dave brings a particularly unique perspective to this conversation because not only does he serve as pastor of Cornerstone Community Church, he is senior chaplain of Orange County Fire Authority, a first responder responding to first responders, and he's chair of the Christian Ministry department at Biola University's Talbot Seminary. And for years, he had stood beside people experiencing some of the darkest moments of their life. And then suddenly, he found himself on that same side of grief. It's a parent who needed someone else to sit beside him. Now their book isn't just about surviving loss. It's learning how to grieve authentically, how to allow others to walk with us, how grief changes over time, but how Christian hope can coexist with such profound sorrow. So we're today we're talking about grief not as just something to get over, but as something God can use to reshape us and refine us. Dave, I'm so grateful that you are here today. Thank you so much for spending time with us and sharing the hope that you have found.
Dr. Dave Keehn Thank you for this opportunity to, share our journey and how God has been working in us and through us.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, Dave, I want to talk about your son Adam, and I want to honor his legacy. But before Adam was here on this earth, there was a Dave who grew up, who came to faith in the Lord, who entered a life of ministry, who started a family. Tell us about that, Dave.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, I was born a Christian home. Went, straight from the hospital nursery to the church nursery.
Dr. Dave Keehn's Life of Faith and Early Challenges in Ministry
Didn't pass go, didn't collect $200. I was always about the church, it felt like. And, gave my life to Christ when I was in middle school and felt God early on calling me into ministry. I was a youth pastor for 29 years and before I went to be a teaching pastor at a church, during that season also started teaching, at Biola University. So I, I think I had a life that was very grounded in who Jesus is and a, faith that was. Was active and vibrant. And I, I didn't realize, how necessary that foundation would be until, the loss of my son just completely rocked. Rocked our world. And that faith has sustained us. But it also. I've been challenged in my faith and and. And really I think have had a, A stripping of some of the. Maybe the nice things we hang outside people could see. And, and really the. Just the.
Navigating Faith and Doubt Through Personal Tragedy and Son's Health Struggles
Just had to do some real hard questioning, even as a pastor, some real hard questions with God about this season, that he allowed us to go through.
Dr. Jessica Peck It's extraordinary to hear a pastor speak with such transparency. But pastors are human. And you have doubts and you have human emotions and you have questions just like we all do. And so to share that, I think is really encouraging in a way that it maybe wouldn't be from somebody else in that position. And even before Adam's death, you know, you experienced some challenges even with Adam's birth. I want you to talk about that because that was a season. It seems like just from reading about it and what you shared, that that was a season that definitely stretched your faith.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah. You know, as a, maybe as a naive youth pastor that, you know, you, you live your life for Christ, you're saving yourself sexually for marriage. And then my wife and I got married pretty young and had our first child, pretty young and. And When Debbie, had given birth to our daughter, she got really, really sick, to the point where, she was on some pretty strong medication. They told us not to get pregnant in a season, of remission. they said if you want to get pregnant, now's the time. God was gracious, allowed us to conceive really quickly. But at the end of her first trimester, she got really sick again and had to go back on these really powerful medications that, ah, we didn't know what kind of child, would be born. And when Adam was born, he had some struggles in the very beginning of life. but God was just amazing and gracious and as we called out of our miracle trial, that we could actually have him in a season of, of sickness. And, and I think that's what, you know, when you look at the totality of Adam's life, you know, he brought such joy and passion to so many people in such a short period of time. It actually makes you wonder, what could have been.
The Profound Joy and Grief of Losing a Child and Legacy
And I think that's the biggest pain of, of losing a child is the what if and, and what would have been. You grieve those dreams that are not going to be anymore.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I think to appreciate the depth of grief that you have over Adam's death, you have to understand the joy that you had over Adam's life. Certainly had so much joy in his life. And I think it's precious to have something so wonderful and so special that it is worthy of the kind of grief that you've experienced. That's something precious to have. And, and so tell us about Adam's life and what you counted as precious to that. And, and what you see his, his legacy as, the what ifs that would be in a life cut so short. What were those things that you saw that you celebrate and hold on to now?
Dr. Dave Keehn You know, Adam's journey to faith was, was rocky. He, you know, growing up with your dad as your youth pastor, being around the church all the time, he, he struggled with understanding who Jesus was for him. And, really went through a season in high school where it was all about his, his sports, soccer and, and other dynamics. And so there was some, some tension, you know, when he was in high school. But towards the end of his high school season, his, his senior of high school, and then when he went to Biola University his freshman year, he had a true coming to Jesus moment. And, and in that season, there was some deep reconciliation between him and I, and to the point where we're like, we are Best buds. And towards the end of his life and, as he became so passionate for the gospel, he actually, at the end of his freshman year of college, said, hey, Dad, I think God's calling me be a youth pastor. And I. And I actually had doubts. I mean, I said, yeah, you can't just do it because your dad made it look so fun and cool. Then this is between you and God.
Adam Keehn's Passion for Ministry and Impact on Young Lives
But. But the calling upon his life was so, so true. He interned for a large church here in Southern California, was hired onto their staff while he was in college, in his senior year of college, got, hired full time at a church in Glendora, California. And so while, when he was in college, you know, I'd. My wife and I would, on Saturday nights go up to this church to watch him, and I would just weep in the back of this large auditorium as he's just preaching the gospel to hundreds of middle school students and just, Just in awe of, what he was doing for, for the gospel. And then, you know, as he goes and he gets hired full time his senior year at a church, he starts at that new church in February of 2020. And the next month, Covid shuts the world down and he's in LA county, the most restrictive county. And yet, because he was just so passionate for the gospel, he didn't let that stop him. And his ministry actually grew and flourished during the midst of. Of Cove which was the hardest season of ministry I'd ever witnessed. And so there was just such joy and, and authentic pride in what Adam, was doing for God's Kingdomnomics. It's just an incredible journey to just watch him just impact so many lives, in. In. In that season of his life.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, not only was he flourishing in his ministry, it seems like he was flourishing at home too. He had a young wife, a baby on the way. Tell us about that, that impact and that joy that was in his life. Because it certainly seems from. I never got to meet Adam, but certainly seems from re. From hearing him talk, from hearing about what, reading what he has written, what's been written about him, that he certainly loved his family.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, yeah. He and his wife Maddie were, Were just committed to each other, committed to the gospel. They served together in ministry. I think that's probably one of the reasons why he did so well. He had such a great wife supporting him. And, they got married in the midst of Cove and we're looking forward to their. To their daughter being born. Our granddaughter Kinsley was born three weeks after he passed away and, and so she's four now. and my wife and I get to, to be with her, you know, take her to Disneyland about once a month and see her a couple times during the month. And just, you see, Adam's passion for life and her already is just, It's, it's, it's heartbreaking that it's me and not him that's experiencing that with his daughter. But there it's, it's, we're so thankful for, for God giving us, Kinsley and, and just watching her faith and, and, and, and, and his, and his wife's faith just continue to, to sustain us in some ways.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, you know, when you talk about that, it just seems, it does make his death seem more tragic because it seems like everything was going for him. And having reconciliation beyond, you know, conflict that you may have had in his teen years and seeing him married, expecting a baby, flourishing in his ministry. And for me, you know, working as a pediatric nurse for 30m way more times, even one time, is too much.
The Unjust Nature of Losing a Child and Unfulfilled Potential
Seeing the grief that comes when parents lose a child and it just seems so wrong. There's something that's sad about losing someone who's older, but there's a comfort that you can have in saying, hey, they lived their life, they lived a full life, they're ready to go. They, they, they want to see the Lord. But to see someone, you know, lost in such. Their potential, it just, there's something that just seems unjust about that and unfair and grieving all what ifs and grieving, like you said, the, the loss of having that experience with him, seeing his, your grandchild together, seeing Kinsley together, that can seem unfair. But when we come back, we'll talk about that fateful day that changed your life. We'll talk about those early days of grief and how your grief journey looks now, even almost four years later. Because it's not something that you just get over. This is something that changes your life forever. And grief doesn't just represent the loss of someone we love.
Grief as Loss of Imagined Future and Finding Hope in Christ
It represents the loss of the life we imagined we were going to have with that person. Things like the routines and the expectations and the dreams and the specifics of those future. And perhaps one of the most important thing that we can hear today is that there's really no one right or wrong way to grieve except to seek the hope. The right way forward is the. To seek the hope that is found in Christ. And if grief is unavoidable in this life, we're told in this world we will have trouble. How do we actually walk through it? How do we help someone else walk through it while being well intentioned but actually making their pain worse? We don't want to do that. That's what we're going to talk about. We're talking more with Dave Keehn, Dr. Dave Keehn, about living in the shadow of grief enlarging your capacity to grieve with hope. When we come back, we'll talk more about the life and legacy of Adam Keehn. Don't go away. You don't want to miss this. I'll see you right on the other side of this break.
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Hymn of Heaven by Phil Wickham and mercy fills the streets to look upon m the one who pledges save me and walk with him for all eternity. There will be a day when all will bow before him. There will be a day when death will be no more Standing face to face with he who died and rose again. Holy, holy is the Lord.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That is the hymn of heaven by Phil Wickham hope that I hold on to. And when we lose people in this world, in this life, as Christians, we can grieve not as those who have no hope, but we have a hope that we will be reunited with them in the presence of Jesus forever. And most of us will eventually find ourselves in one of two places, either having a grieving journey ourselves or walking alongside someone who is grieving the loss of someone precious. And sometimes our discomfort with grief, it makes us say things that aren't helpful. We want to fix it, we want to explain it. We give them platitudes like God needed another angel in heaven and we mean well, but we want to rush someone toward hope before they've had permission to acknowledge the pain that comes with that, loss. And perhaps one of the greatest gifts that we can give a grieving person isn't an explanation. It's just our presence to be bear witness to their grief. We're talking today with Dr. Dave Keane about the tragic loss of his son Adam at the age of 24. He was a minister, a youth pastor, a flourishing ministry, a wife, a baby along the way, and. And died with a brain aneurysm.
The Fateful Day That Changed Dave Keehn's Life Forever
And it Seems so tragic. And Dave, I want to go to that stage story, the story of the loss of grief. Because that is a story in which a day changed your life forever. And I'd like for you to share that with us.
Receiving News of Son's Death Experiencing Bewilderment and Different Grieving Styles
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, it was. It was a day like, like Noah, it's any other day. I was actually, as a chaplain, riding out with an engine company in San Clemente, California, and got a phone call from a Maddie that, that Adam. Her words were, I think Adam died. And in my mind that. That didn't compute. I. I literally thought she meant like, well, maybe he fainted. Maybe there had something wrong, like a seizure. And I just told her, we'll call 91 1. And. And And I remember telling the guys on the engine, you know, something happened to my son. And they actually drove me back to the station, Code three with lights and sirens to get me home as fast as possible. And when I got home, we got a second phone call that. That Adam had passed away. And it didn't compute. you know, we. We had friends that dropped everything him immediately to us, drove us the. The hour to where Adam was and stayed with us for. For a couple days just holding us and, and you know, really sustaining us. in. In the moment, my wife and I reacted very differently. My wife was very demonstrative, crying out, you know, loud wails for. Of grief. And I was more just bewildered. I couldn't make sense of it. You know, the suddenness of it, the randomness of this. And I think that's one of the things that most couples struggle with is how differently people grieve. And I think what was really helpful for my wife and I is that we just gave each other permission to grieve differently. And, and so our journey, it wasn't until like the next day that I truly, I think broke down and.
Wrestling with God's Plans and Sovereignty in the Midst of Grief
And truly sobbed for what, had happened. And, and. And I, as I wrestled with that suddenness and randomness of grief, that's where I think really pressed me, in my questioning of. Of how God was. Was operating. You know, as a. I came. When I came back to my church eventually for that first sermon back, I remember telling, my church, you know, I still believe in God and his love for me and, and his goodness. But, I truly wrestled with his plans. Like, like this could not be his plan. This doesn't make sense. Like, this is the better option that God had. Had designed for. And so, I think that is that journey of, of faith is that we hold on to A good and loving God that we, we recognize that the why of. Of. Of the grief, the why of the passing, will never know this side of heaven.
The Story of Job and Understanding God's Presence in Suffering
I remember, in that season reading the story of Job. And it took me a long time to want to read about Job and his suffering. But one of the things that stood out to me as I read the story of Job is Job loses so much. And it's all because Satan challenged Job's integrity. And so God allowed Satan to put Job through this suffering. And yet, when Job finally has enough and demands to meet with God and God finally shows up 35 chapters later, like God's been pretty much absent, you know, and allowing Job and his friends argue back and forth about the reason for this. When God shows up, God never tells Job the story of what took place to the heavens and Satan's attack on his character. God never says, here's why you went through the suffering. He just simply says, you know, where were you? And that. That really kind of helped me understand. It's not about the why. It's about who's with me. And as.
A Foundation of Faith Holding Strong Amidst Life's Storms
And as broken as I was in that season, my foundation of faith, it held. And so, when people asked how I was doing, I said, I'm like the. The man who built his house on the rock. And, And I used to think that meant when the storms came, hey, the house was great because it was built on the rock. But the reality is the windows were blown out, there was roof damage, but the foundation held. And that. That's my, My story is that, God has been such a part of my journey for, for all of my life, that when life was ripped apart, what survived was that foundational belief that God is still God. And that, I'm, part of his plan, even though it's not the plan I wanted or thought was best.
Dr. Jessica Peck It's so honest how you're sharing, Dave. You're, you're making me tear up here because there's such a rawness and an authenticity to your grief because you're not giving the picture perfect answers, like, yes, it was terrible, but we trust in God's plan, and we just held onto that and the house stayed great. I mean, you just describing, having this mental image of the windows blown out and you just, you know, holding on for dear life as the storm comes. As you were describing in Job, like, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? That is a tough, tough truth to come in to contact with God's sovereignty and to know that we'll never have all the answers this side of heaven. And when I see that, you know, grief journey that you had your four years out now, in those early days, I can't imagine how hard it was to have your son expecting a baby, his. His wife expecting a baby just three weeks after, and to walk through the birth of what somebody that's supposed to be so joyous and such a celebration, but I'm sure a situation that was just cloaked in grief as well and was so bittersweet. What did those early days look like? You talked about, you know, you and Debbie grieving differently. What did it look like to feel like, okay, I want to grieve this, and yet life goes on. Literally. We got to get up, We. We got to get dressed. You got to keep pushing forward. What did your grief journey look like in those early days?
Creating an Inner Circle for Grief Support and Protecting Vulnerability
Dr. Dave Keehn In all honesty, it's. It was just a lot of just being with each other, holding on to each other. There, everything kind of stopped. And, and in God's sovereignty, Adam passed the beginning of the summer. So I was off from the school for. For summer break, and, and the church gave me a couple months off for as long as I wanted to be off. And so, those initial stages were just kind of hunkering down and holding on to each other and, and, having a few people, that we allowed in. I think one of the things that was really hard for. For some people in our church is they wanted to respond and help because that's what most Christians just feel, a need to do something. And yet, in all honesty, we could only really be with those who also were going to grieve with us. In other words, we couldn't be around people who just wanted to do a meal and see how we're doing. We just needed to be with people who were going to cry with us. And so for that first season, we. We had this inner circle that we were really protective of. And, and what was, what was. What was very wise, I think, that we did, is that we, had a second circle around us, and these people played an important role of protecting us from. How many people wanted to have access to us, because as a pastor, as a professor, we were just so known and Adam was so known that there was just. Everybody wanted something with us. In fact, you know, Adam's moral had over a thousand people at it. And it became a time where people just needed a hug from us to know that they were going to be okay. And so the, the, the, the. The, you know, The. The seasons were flipped that instead of receiving comfort, we had to give comfort. And so, that secondary circle after that experience just had became this protective wall. And, and some people, because they weren't in the inner circle, got upset and were. Were hurt that they weren't included. And we just had to say sorry. Just we couldn't accept more people into that inner circle except those who are truly just going to grieve.
Honoring Grief and Relationships While Living in the Shadow of Loss
And then in time, we would reach out, and in time we were able to say to people, hey, when you see us and we're not standing in worship, just know that we're. We're honoring God in our hearts. And if you see us and we're not wanting to give you a hug, we still care about you. I. I actually wrote a letter, email to our church and just kind of explained the season that we are in and, and just know that we care deeply for them, but we're just not in a position where we can receive them in a physical way. And so it is that difficult journey because people actually were, I think, mad at me that I wasn't just rejoicing. Adam was in heaven. When we actually had some people question, why are you crying? He's in heaven. And I'm like, you really don't get it. You know, to lose your child at such a young age. You know, when you think, you know this, this is out of order, this is, unnatural to go straight to, well, hey, praise God, he's in heaven. Is. It's just there's something that you're not honoring about the relationship you had. And that's why we actually call the book Living in the Shadow of Grief that Debbie and I, we tell people like, we died that day too. But the people we are now, by the grace of God, were.
Grief as a Change in Experience Amplified by Hope in God
Were continuing on. But. But even on a great day and we'll be with each other at church, worshiping or at Disneyland, we will still, something will remind us about Adam. And we'll just feel like in the shadow where it's like he's with us and we're living in this moment. And shadows are not necessarily bad. They're just. They change your experience. And that's what grief has done. It has changed us. But, through the power of God, I think we're able to be more now, because of the hope we have and, and what Jesus has accomplished in the, in the resurrection and the heaven and the hope of heaven that we have.
The Gifts of Grief Bearing Witness and Offering Authentic Presence
Dr. Jessica Peck It's so helpful to hear you sharing like this. It's helpful for People who are walking their own grieving journey to know that they're not alone, that they, that and having this response of sorrow and hope, holding pain and hope in the same time, and that tension is really helpful and also to helping other people who are witnessing someone's journey of grief. I have borne witness to the kind of loss that you are describing, Dave. And it is, it's gut wrenching. It is, it's so painful. And you, you want so badly to do something and yet there's nothing really that you can do to fix that loss, to bring that person back. But I think one of the greatest gifts that you can give people who are grieving like that is give them permission to grieve. And exactly like you said, have that inner circle where they're going to see you authentically. Like, you don't feel pressured to comfort them, to perform for them. Like, I know when, when I have been in situations like that, it's maybe that person who's grieving, they come and sit on the couch and then maybe they go back to their room for nine hours and we don't see them again. We just bring them food and, and, and those kinds of things. I know you ment in your book things like bringing meals but having no interaction, just dropping them off. Here's our expression of care. But you have no obligation to give us any emotional energy because you have none. You're depleted in those moments. I think that's really helpful for people to hear people say, and I'm sure it was so hard for you, Dave, because I know, you know, I always say nurses are the worst patients. Like, I always want to be on the giving end of the needle. Like, I don't want to be on the receiving end. It's always so hard for me to be a patient. But I'm sure that was so hard for you to having been in your first responder role and, and bearing witness to people's grief. And then all of a sudden that role is reversed. What was that like for you and your, and your dialogue with the Lord and working out the irony of that situation,
Dr. Dave Keehn you know, I realized, that I had been operating in a system of like, God, I give you my life, but you, that means you're not going to touch certain aspects of my life. You know that. So in my work as a pastor, as a chaplain, you know, I kind of was this in faith, like, God wouldn't do this. God would never allow me to go through this. And so when God touched the most precious part of my Life rocked me. And, it showed me the why we need each other, that I could not do this journey alone. And, and thankfully, Debbie and I had had already a habit of spiritual disciplines that just continued to sustain us. We had deep friendships that we had already invested in that sustained us. I had other men in my life that came alongside and literally, just picked me up. And, and so, I think in that moment, I was. I was so broken. it was almost like a numb state of who was there to help. And, and, and, and so it is difficult sometimes to think that I would accept this, but in, in all honesty, I had no, no options. We were, we were so, at a loss for what was happening.
Dr. Jessica Peck Dave, it is so tough. I'm gonna hold you right there. We're at our next break. When we come back, we'll talk more about that. And I have a lot of questions about the way that Adam's death changed your view of heaven and the hope of heaven that you have and what you have learned as a pastor and just as a Christian in this world about what kind of hope that God gives us for eternity. We'll be right back with more Living in the Shadow of Grief with Dave Keehn Here's Dr. John Oswalt from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks.
Dr. John Oswalt We are inveterate idolaters. We inveterately attempt to find means within the country cosmos where we can achieve our goals, where we can control God for our purposes. And it's astonishing the ways in which we do it. When. When the Old Testament spends so much time attacking idols, we often think, well, I don't have any idols. I don't have any little statues in my closet. I don't pray to some God or something. But idolatry is really the attempt to manipulate the divine through my own efforts. That's what idolatry is. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.
Christ Our Hope In Life And Death by Keith & Kristyn Getty, Matt Our hope in life and death. Christ alone Christ alone What is our only confidence that our souls to him belong? Who, Holds our days within his head? What comes apart from his command? And what will keep us to the end? The love of Christ in which we stand oh, sing hallelujah I will spare Hallelujah now.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That is Christ. Our hope in life or Death by Keith and Kristyn Getty. And that can be a nice song to sing on Sunday morning, but when you face the reality of losing someone precious to you in death, especially. Especially losing a child, a child who has not lived their full potential of Life, it can be a lot harder to sing those words. And we're talking to someone who has lived that grief journey. We're talking to Pastor Dr. Dave Keehn He has written a book with his wife Debbie, called Living in the shadow of grief, enlarging your capacity to grieve with hope. And, as I said, is a pediatric nurse. And I'm, getting all worked up here because every loss of a child is so precious to me as a nurse, and it's even infinitely more precious to God. And I think about all of those grief journeys that I have borne witness to and the lives that live on and the legacy that lives on in Adam Keehn And. And Adam's parents have started a foundation called the Adam Kean foundation to honor his ministry, his memory. And when I was looking at this, I saw something that his wife wrote, and she wrote a beautiful tribute to him. But let me just read to you a few of her words to describe who Adam was.
Tribute to Adam Keehn's Passion for God and His Legacy for Family
She talks about Adam going into a coffee shop, imagining him going in, big smile. And Adam sits down and starts reading, journaling and highlighting like crazy his book and the Bible, all while saying out loud, m. Wow, that's so good. He reads journals, sips his coffee, takes bites of his croissant, repeats. You decide to go up to him and ask him what his book is about. He greets you with the sweetest smile and then talks your ear off for the next two hours. You see, Adam is so passionate about God and all that he is learning. Adam is confident in the man he is and in what the scriptures say to be true. You already see that the scripture has penetrated his whole life. It flows out of him. And Dave, she goes on to just give such a beautiful tribute to him. And I think about. You mentioned your granddaughter, Kinsley, who is now about 4 years old. And Dave, I imagine that there will be a time when she becomes a teenager, a young adult, that she'll want to know more about who her dad is and was and where he comes from. And she may even seek out interviews like this to see what was said about her dad. What is her dad's legacy? What would you want Kinsley to hear if she listens to this later on and wondering who her dad is?
The Hope of Heaven and Reunification with Loved Ones in Christ
Dr. Dave Keehn everything her mom wrote, Adam loved life. He was a student of God's word, and he was passionate about sharing the good news that he was discovering about Jesus with others, that he wanted people to. How loved and welcomed they were by God into his family. And so, yeah, I think Maddie's, doing a great job at just keeping that knowledge and image of Adam alive. Because even though Kinsey's only four and never met her dad, she talks about Adam all the time when we're together. And it's just. It's, it's beautiful. That's why we, we have hope that, you know, I'm gonna see Adam again. That, this is not the end of Adam's story. So when you think about the reality of heaven, man, I can't wait to, talk with him and share with them and experience life, up there, or wherever heaven is, but experience life with him, a fresh and restored and resurrected again. And so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's that reality that we can grieve with Hope. That's what First Thessalonians 4 talks about. We're not like those who. Who view death as the end, but for those who know Christ, death is. Is a destination change, but that, you know, the eternity that we look forward to. And yeah, so that's, that's that idea of expand your capacity, grieve with hope is knowing that this world is not all there is, and, and so not living for this world only, but for what God has in store for us as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, Dave, you've described your own life, knowing Christ from a very early age, following the Lord, going into ministry, becoming a pastor, being a first responder, wanting to start a family, doing all the things right according to the Christian blueprint that were given, and following God's commands and kind of feeling like you.
Dr. Jessica Peck If.
Dr. Jessica Peck Then proposition like, okay, God, I'm honoring you now. Don't touch these precious parts of my life. And, and he did and allowed this tragedy to happen. And even as a pastor, you know, you. You're talking about your perspective even shifting because of this, and knowing before, knowing before that our hope does spring eternal and that we do not grieve as a people without hope. But it seems like you've been profoundly changed. And the way that you look at heaven, the way you look at com. At eternity, and the confidence with which at it, it has changed. What. What has changed? What gives you more confidence? What do you see more clearly?
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, I would definitely say even as a pastor and been to seminary, my view of heaven is probably really cartoonish, if I was to be honest, you know, and you people describe it as an eternal worship service. And I'm like, man, even as a pastor, that doesn't excite me like I think it should. And it's when Adam passed. I, you know, I spent a lot of time reading scripture about the present heaven and, and the new heaven, earth to come. And what was Adam's experiencing, what did he know? And, and, you know, what would he be like? And, and when, when I look at the present heaven and see that, you know, there's knowledge there, there's memories that he has, there's character that he is expressing. And then in the new heavens, you have this restoration of all life. And you look at the entirety of the Bible, Heaven is described as a resurrected Eden and a city of God.
Heaven as Resurrected Eden and City of God Purposeful Eternity
And if you think about those two carefully, chosen, kind of declarations and analogies, we see that heaven isn't just us, floating around on clouds with our eternal, worship service. It's. There's culture, there's food, there's worship, there's music, there's work to be done, there's relationships, there's. That we have. And so my, my excitement about heaven has, has increased. You know, my wife and I, we talk all the time like, you know, heaven, we, we can't wait for it to come. You know, we, we know we have a job to do while we're here. We're, we're. We love our grandkids and we love the opportunities God gives us to, to do his work. But, but too often, I think I was living, in all honesty, before I was fasting as I want to live for God's kingdom here on earth, I want to do what I can for his kingdom here on earth. And it was all about this present world. And what I'm realizing is this is just a, foretaste of what God has created. And there is a job for us to do here on this side of heaven. But that's not. The purpose is to stay on this side of heaven. The purpose eventually is to be reunited with, with Christ and to be with those who we love, who know Christ and gone on before us.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, let's go back to a couple of things that you said, because I feel like this is going to perk some ears because much like you, I used to have a cartoonish view is a really good way to put it. I don't think I would have said that, but I pictured like we're, you know, sitting around with harps on clouds. Like, that's what I think. And we'll just live in peace and everybody wears this, like, little white robe with a sash and, you know, that kind of thing. But you just said three words that I think are going to really catch some people's attention. You said, Pete, there's, there's culture and people and or food, I think that was the three words you used. But you said culture and food and places and it's a physical place. I, I started looking at that after the loss of my granny just a few years ago. I wanted to know more about what that was going to look like and what my hope to look like. Cuz I was so close to her and I grieved her loss so deeply. And I was surprised to see that a lot of this is right there in the Bible. So what, what did you see? Go back to those specifics and, and kind of wet people's appetite to say like, hey, this is, this is actually real.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah. So I mean, scripture, Old Testament, NewSong Testament, talk about heaven as a resurrected Eden. So when you go back to that Garden of Eden where it's paradise and you saw animals and humanity living and thriving together, where it was meant to be this incredible place of, of goodness. So you have that as your original construct of where God would, desires for people to be. And then you, you hear it talking about the City of God. The City of God. Well, cities are full of culture, cities are full of activities, cities are full of, of, of music and, and food that celebrate. We hear about the Feast of God, the Feast of the Lamb and Revelation. But you have this, this idea that we're meant to do activities and work. And even when, you know, you see Christ, you know, say well done, good and faithful servant. It's always this idea of God is including us and inviting us to do something even more. And so for us to think that heaven is simply us sitting around, I think would be so boring. That we were created to have purpose and activity and work. You saw that even in the Garden of Eden that there was work to be done. And so I think when we think of heaven, it's going to be great work where you're not sweating, you're not in pain, you're not having, you know, failures of your work. You're just going to be serving your, your place and having joy with the people that you knew and loved and will be reunited with. and that's what I look forward to. So much work.
Dr. Jessica Peck That's the one I forgot. Yes, Culture, food and work. And, and it does, it makes me excited to look forward.
Strengthening Marriage Through Grief Giving Permission and Building Resilience
But God has given us a mission here on earth that's going to impact that work that we do in eternity. And we've got to steward our journey well. And that can Be really hard when we counter grief like you have experienced. And one of the things that you talk about, of course, this book is written by both you and your wife, and you talk about how it changes marriage. What have you learned in your marriage journey through this grieving process?
Dr. Dave Keehn I learned. We both learned to give each other the permission to grieve as well or as long as we needed to. In other words, we. We took away the timelines. You know, I'm more of a extrovert. I wanted to be around people. My wife was very different. And so we said, okay, I'm gonna go. And in all that reality, before we went back to the church, I went back to the fire station with. With guys that knew hardships and knew our story. And I could just be with a small group of guys and. And, you know, my wife just wanted to be with her best friend and talk. And so we found ways that we are allowing each other to grieve. and we didn't put each other on a timeline to say, well, you have to be this way by this time. But the other thing that was very true is the practices that my wife and I had of going on walks regularly, of dating each other regularly, of sharing scripture with each other. You know, our. We didn't do devotions together, but we would often talk about what we were reading in our own journeys. Those things became muscle memory. And really so vital in helping us through that that the time to develop your marriage is not when crisis hits. It's. It's going to reveal the resilience that you've already built into your marriage. And so, I. I actually tell a lot of the couples that we meet with, like, hey, work on your marriage at all times, because you're going to need it when you go through hardships. And when the hardship does come, give each other permission to grieve as you want, but also seek those who could really help. And so both my wife and I got counseling, both together and individually, we gave each other permission to. To.
Dr. Dave Keehn To just, walk through that process, in the way that they each. We each needed to do. And I think that was very, very helpful.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, it's one thing to live out this grief journey publicly, you know, as you are pastor and leading your church. And I know you talked about how people wanted to know that you were going to be okay so they could be okay. And living this out, it's another thing completely to write the book, but that tells me that's how strong your conviction was to Share the help and the hope that you received in this journey. Tell us what and. And we're right at the end of our time together, Dave, and I hate that. But in just a minute, tell us what you hope that someone reading this book would get from what they read.
Dr. Dave Keehn I hope they gain an understanding of what grief is doing to them.
Understanding Grief's Impact Expanding Life's Capacity and Helping Others Grieve
In other words, grief, because it's sudden and. And can be random, sometimes we hear, we see it coming, but sometimes it's just unexpected. And that really does challenge our faith. It challenges our relationships. So the more that you can understand how grief changes you, I hope, you'll be able to respond to it better. I hope that through the power and the grace of God, that you'll see that grief is this ball in a jar. And it's not that the grief is getting smaller, it's that your life, the jar is getting bigger. And so through the power and grace of God, you're able to move forward. Different, but move forward. And then for those who are walking alongside people who are grieving, you just understand what they're going through. So you know what to do and what not to do, what not to say that you actually can be helpful and not hurtful.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, Dave, thank you so much to you and Debbie for being so transparent and sharing your journey. And, you know, there's a temptation in our culture to think that healing means, like, just, oh, we're now again the person we were before the loss. But that's not always what healing looks like. Sometimes grief just changes us permanently.
Carrying Grief into a New Reality with Hope and Faith in Christ
But the story of grief is not we stop loving the person we've lost or we get better. It's how do we carry that into a new reality and have hope? And when that day comes, may we be people who know how to grieve, honesty, honestly and love faithfully and hold on to the hope we have in Christ. And I thank you so much for sharing that with us today. And wherever you are and whatever you're doing, I, pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. Be gracious to you and give you peace. I'll see you here next time.
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Dr. Jessica Peck We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR Candace talks
about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by PreBorn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside. I mean that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom. Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love.
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on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for healthy families. And today we're going to talk about something that's really tough but a place where you can find hope even in the middle of great grief.
Understanding Grief in a Culture Uncomfortable with Expressing Loss
Now we live in a culture that is increasingly uncomfortable with grief and if we're really honest, we see really unhealthy expressions of grief. Maybe we see over sharing on social media and then we see under sharing and then we see judgment of other people's journey of grief as their living that out on social media or not living that out on social media. There's just such a transparency there and a lack of grounding and how to grieve well. And so often people who are grieving are encouraged just to move on, get back to normal, stay busy or find closure or just use their own strengths and abilities to make sense of the tragedy and just put those difficult emotions behind you. And even well meaning people, often we don't know what to say when someone loses a loved one instead of Just being present. And we feel like all of a sudden, it's a pop quiz for us. And are we going to say the right thing, give the right Bible verse, be the wise sage in the moment? And that is not often what God calls us to do. And we have to know that grief doesn't follow a schedule. Even since learning about the stages of grief, as many people are well aware, those stages don't often occur in a linear fashion. That's very organized and predictable. It's a messy, looping, back and forth kind of journey. And perhaps one of the most difficult things about grief is just. It's randomness. You may think that you're moving on, and then all of a sudden something happens and a wave just washes over you. But for Christians, grief presents another really profound tension. We believe in, a good and sovereign God. We believe in the hope of the resurrection, and we believe that death does not have the final word. And yet we still hurt and we cry and we grieve and we ask questions and we don't understand. And we have to learn to live in a world looks completely different than it did before our loss. And we don't understand it fully. So today's conversation is about what happens when grief doesn't simply visit us. It's not just a season. It changes our life here on earth. Our guest is Dr. Dave Keehn
Introduction to Dr. Dave Keehn and His Journey Through Grief and Faith
He's a co author with his wife Debbie, of a book called Living in the Shadow of grief. Enlarging your capacity to grieve with hope. Those last two words are so important. And Dave and Debbie lost their son Adam to a brain aneurysm when he was just 24 years old. This was an unexpected and devastating loss that forever changed their family. And Dave brings a particularly unique perspective to this conversation because not only does he serve as pastor of Cornerstone Community Church, he is senior chaplain of Orange County Fire Authority, a first responder responding to first responders, and he's chair of the Christian Ministry department at Biola University's Talbot Seminary. And for years, he had stood beside people experiencing some of the darkest moments of their life. And then suddenly, he found himself on that same side of grief. It's a parent who needed someone else to sit beside him. Now their book isn't just about surviving loss. It's learning how to grieve authentically, how to allow others to walk with us, how grief changes over time, but how Christian hope can coexist with such profound sorrow. So we're today we're talking about grief not as just something to get over, but as something God can use to reshape us and refine us. Dave, I'm so grateful that you are here today. Thank you so much for spending time with us and sharing the hope that you have found.
Dr. Dave Keehn Thank you for this opportunity to, share our journey and how God has been working in us and through us.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, Dave, I want to talk about your son Adam, and I want to honor his legacy. But before Adam was here on this earth, there was a Dave who grew up, who came to faith in the Lord, who entered a life of ministry, who started a family. Tell us about that, Dave.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, I was born a Christian home. Went, straight from the hospital nursery to the church nursery.
Dr. Dave Keehn's Life of Faith and Early Challenges in Ministry
Didn't pass go, didn't collect $200. I was always about the church, it felt like. And, gave my life to Christ when I was in middle school and felt God early on calling me into ministry. I was a youth pastor for 29 years and before I went to be a teaching pastor at a church, during that season also started teaching, at Biola University. So I, I think I had a life that was very grounded in who Jesus is and a, faith that was. Was active and vibrant. And I, I didn't realize, how necessary that foundation would be until, the loss of my son just completely rocked. Rocked our world. And that faith has sustained us. But it also. I've been challenged in my faith and and. And really I think have had a, A stripping of some of the. Maybe the nice things we hang outside people could see. And, and really the. Just the.
Navigating Faith and Doubt Through Personal Tragedy and Son's Health Struggles
Just had to do some real hard questioning, even as a pastor, some real hard questions with God about this season, that he allowed us to go through.
Dr. Jessica Peck It's extraordinary to hear a pastor speak with such transparency. But pastors are human. And you have doubts and you have human emotions and you have questions just like we all do. And so to share that, I think is really encouraging in a way that it maybe wouldn't be from somebody else in that position. And even before Adam's death, you know, you experienced some challenges even with Adam's birth. I want you to talk about that because that was a season. It seems like just from reading about it and what you shared, that that was a season that definitely stretched your faith.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah. You know, as a, maybe as a naive youth pastor that, you know, you, you live your life for Christ, you're saving yourself sexually for marriage. And then my wife and I got married pretty young and had our first child, pretty young and. And When Debbie, had given birth to our daughter, she got really, really sick, to the point where, she was on some pretty strong medication. They told us not to get pregnant in a season, of remission. they said if you want to get pregnant, now's the time. God was gracious, allowed us to conceive really quickly. But at the end of her first trimester, she got really sick again and had to go back on these really powerful medications that, ah, we didn't know what kind of child, would be born. And when Adam was born, he had some struggles in the very beginning of life. but God was just amazing and gracious and as we called out of our miracle trial, that we could actually have him in a season of, of sickness. And, and I think that's what, you know, when you look at the totality of Adam's life, you know, he brought such joy and passion to so many people in such a short period of time. It actually makes you wonder, what could have been.
The Profound Joy and Grief of Losing a Child and Legacy
And I think that's the biggest pain of, of losing a child is the what if and, and what would have been. You grieve those dreams that are not going to be anymore.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I think to appreciate the depth of grief that you have over Adam's death, you have to understand the joy that you had over Adam's life. Certainly had so much joy in his life. And I think it's precious to have something so wonderful and so special that it is worthy of the kind of grief that you've experienced. That's something precious to have. And, and so tell us about Adam's life and what you counted as precious to that. And, and what you see his, his legacy as, the what ifs that would be in a life cut so short. What were those things that you saw that you celebrate and hold on to now?
Dr. Dave Keehn You know, Adam's journey to faith was, was rocky. He, you know, growing up with your dad as your youth pastor, being around the church all the time, he, he struggled with understanding who Jesus was for him. And, really went through a season in high school where it was all about his, his sports, soccer and, and other dynamics. And so there was some, some tension, you know, when he was in high school. But towards the end of his high school season, his, his senior of high school, and then when he went to Biola University his freshman year, he had a true coming to Jesus moment. And, and in that season, there was some deep reconciliation between him and I, and to the point where we're like, we are Best buds. And towards the end of his life and, as he became so passionate for the gospel, he actually, at the end of his freshman year of college, said, hey, Dad, I think God's calling me be a youth pastor. And I. And I actually had doubts. I mean, I said, yeah, you can't just do it because your dad made it look so fun and cool. Then this is between you and God.
Adam Keehn's Passion for Ministry and Impact on Young Lives
But. But the calling upon his life was so, so true. He interned for a large church here in Southern California, was hired onto their staff while he was in college, in his senior year of college, got, hired full time at a church in Glendora, California. And so while, when he was in college, you know, I'd. My wife and I would, on Saturday nights go up to this church to watch him, and I would just weep in the back of this large auditorium as he's just preaching the gospel to hundreds of middle school students and just, Just in awe of, what he was doing for, for the gospel. And then, you know, as he goes and he gets hired full time his senior year at a church, he starts at that new church in February of 2020. And the next month, Covid shuts the world down and he's in LA county, the most restrictive county. And yet, because he was just so passionate for the gospel, he didn't let that stop him. And his ministry actually grew and flourished during the midst of. Of Cove which was the hardest season of ministry I'd ever witnessed. And so there was just such joy and, and authentic pride in what Adam, was doing for God's Kingdomnomics. It's just an incredible journey to just watch him just impact so many lives, in. In. In that season of his life.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, not only was he flourishing in his ministry, it seems like he was flourishing at home too. He had a young wife, a baby on the way. Tell us about that, that impact and that joy that was in his life. Because it certainly seems from. I never got to meet Adam, but certainly seems from re. From hearing him talk, from hearing about what, reading what he has written, what's been written about him, that he certainly loved his family.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, yeah. He and his wife Maddie were, Were just committed to each other, committed to the gospel. They served together in ministry. I think that's probably one of the reasons why he did so well. He had such a great wife supporting him. And, they got married in the midst of Cove and we're looking forward to their. To their daughter being born. Our granddaughter Kinsley was born three weeks after he passed away and, and so she's four now. and my wife and I get to, to be with her, you know, take her to Disneyland about once a month and see her a couple times during the month. And just, you see, Adam's passion for life and her already is just, It's, it's, it's heartbreaking that it's me and not him that's experiencing that with his daughter. But there it's, it's, we're so thankful for, for God giving us, Kinsley and, and just watching her faith and, and, and, and, and his, and his wife's faith just continue to, to sustain us in some ways.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, you know, when you talk about that, it just seems, it does make his death seem more tragic because it seems like everything was going for him. And having reconciliation beyond, you know, conflict that you may have had in his teen years and seeing him married, expecting a baby, flourishing in his ministry. And for me, you know, working as a pediatric nurse for 30m way more times, even one time, is too much.
The Unjust Nature of Losing a Child and Unfulfilled Potential
Seeing the grief that comes when parents lose a child and it just seems so wrong. There's something that's sad about losing someone who's older, but there's a comfort that you can have in saying, hey, they lived their life, they lived a full life, they're ready to go. They, they, they want to see the Lord. But to see someone, you know, lost in such. Their potential, it just, there's something that just seems unjust about that and unfair and grieving all what ifs and grieving, like you said, the, the loss of having that experience with him, seeing his, your grandchild together, seeing Kinsley together, that can seem unfair. But when we come back, we'll talk about that fateful day that changed your life. We'll talk about those early days of grief and how your grief journey looks now, even almost four years later. Because it's not something that you just get over. This is something that changes your life forever. And grief doesn't just represent the loss of someone we love.
Grief as Loss of Imagined Future and Finding Hope in Christ
It represents the loss of the life we imagined we were going to have with that person. Things like the routines and the expectations and the dreams and the specifics of those future. And perhaps one of the most important thing that we can hear today is that there's really no one right or wrong way to grieve except to seek the hope. The right way forward is the. To seek the hope that is found in Christ. And if grief is unavoidable in this life, we're told in this world we will have trouble. How do we actually walk through it? How do we help someone else walk through it while being well intentioned but actually making their pain worse? We don't want to do that. That's what we're going to talk about. We're talking more with Dave Keehn, Dr. Dave Keehn, about living in the shadow of grief enlarging your capacity to grieve with hope. When we come back, we'll talk more about the life and legacy of Adam Keehn. Don't go away. You don't want to miss this. I'll see you right on the other side of this break.
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Hymn of Heaven by Phil Wickham and mercy fills the streets to look upon m the one who pledges save me and walk with him for all eternity. There will be a day when all will bow before him. There will be a day when death will be no more Standing face to face with he who died and rose again. Holy, holy is the Lord.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That is the hymn of heaven by Phil Wickham hope that I hold on to. And when we lose people in this world, in this life, as Christians, we can grieve not as those who have no hope, but we have a hope that we will be reunited with them in the presence of Jesus forever. And most of us will eventually find ourselves in one of two places, either having a grieving journey ourselves or walking alongside someone who is grieving the loss of someone precious. And sometimes our discomfort with grief, it makes us say things that aren't helpful. We want to fix it, we want to explain it. We give them platitudes like God needed another angel in heaven and we mean well, but we want to rush someone toward hope before they've had permission to acknowledge the pain that comes with that, loss. And perhaps one of the greatest gifts that we can give a grieving person isn't an explanation. It's just our presence to be bear witness to their grief. We're talking today with Dr. Dave Keane about the tragic loss of his son Adam at the age of 24. He was a minister, a youth pastor, a flourishing ministry, a wife, a baby along the way, and. And died with a brain aneurysm.
The Fateful Day That Changed Dave Keehn's Life Forever
And it Seems so tragic. And Dave, I want to go to that stage story, the story of the loss of grief. Because that is a story in which a day changed your life forever. And I'd like for you to share that with us.
Receiving News of Son's Death Experiencing Bewilderment and Different Grieving Styles
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, it was. It was a day like, like Noah, it's any other day. I was actually, as a chaplain, riding out with an engine company in San Clemente, California, and got a phone call from a Maddie that, that Adam. Her words were, I think Adam died. And in my mind that. That didn't compute. I. I literally thought she meant like, well, maybe he fainted. Maybe there had something wrong, like a seizure. And I just told her, we'll call 91 1. And. And And I remember telling the guys on the engine, you know, something happened to my son. And they actually drove me back to the station, Code three with lights and sirens to get me home as fast as possible. And when I got home, we got a second phone call that. That Adam had passed away. And it didn't compute. you know, we. We had friends that dropped everything him immediately to us, drove us the. The hour to where Adam was and stayed with us for. For a couple days just holding us and, and you know, really sustaining us. in. In the moment, my wife and I reacted very differently. My wife was very demonstrative, crying out, you know, loud wails for. Of grief. And I was more just bewildered. I couldn't make sense of it. You know, the suddenness of it, the randomness of this. And I think that's one of the things that most couples struggle with is how differently people grieve. And I think what was really helpful for my wife and I is that we just gave each other permission to grieve differently. And, and so our journey, it wasn't until like the next day that I truly, I think broke down and.
Wrestling with God's Plans and Sovereignty in the Midst of Grief
And truly sobbed for what, had happened. And, and. And I, as I wrestled with that suddenness and randomness of grief, that's where I think really pressed me, in my questioning of. Of how God was. Was operating. You know, as a. I came. When I came back to my church eventually for that first sermon back, I remember telling, my church, you know, I still believe in God and his love for me and, and his goodness. But, I truly wrestled with his plans. Like, like this could not be his plan. This doesn't make sense. Like, this is the better option that God had. Had designed for. And so, I think that is that journey of, of faith is that we hold on to A good and loving God that we, we recognize that the why of. Of. Of the grief, the why of the passing, will never know this side of heaven.
The Story of Job and Understanding God's Presence in Suffering
I remember, in that season reading the story of Job. And it took me a long time to want to read about Job and his suffering. But one of the things that stood out to me as I read the story of Job is Job loses so much. And it's all because Satan challenged Job's integrity. And so God allowed Satan to put Job through this suffering. And yet, when Job finally has enough and demands to meet with God and God finally shows up 35 chapters later, like God's been pretty much absent, you know, and allowing Job and his friends argue back and forth about the reason for this. When God shows up, God never tells Job the story of what took place to the heavens and Satan's attack on his character. God never says, here's why you went through the suffering. He just simply says, you know, where were you? And that. That really kind of helped me understand. It's not about the why. It's about who's with me. And as.
A Foundation of Faith Holding Strong Amidst Life's Storms
And as broken as I was in that season, my foundation of faith, it held. And so, when people asked how I was doing, I said, I'm like the. The man who built his house on the rock. And, And I used to think that meant when the storms came, hey, the house was great because it was built on the rock. But the reality is the windows were blown out, there was roof damage, but the foundation held. And that. That's my, My story is that, God has been such a part of my journey for, for all of my life, that when life was ripped apart, what survived was that foundational belief that God is still God. And that, I'm, part of his plan, even though it's not the plan I wanted or thought was best.
Dr. Jessica Peck It's so honest how you're sharing, Dave. You're, you're making me tear up here because there's such a rawness and an authenticity to your grief because you're not giving the picture perfect answers, like, yes, it was terrible, but we trust in God's plan, and we just held onto that and the house stayed great. I mean, you just describing, having this mental image of the windows blown out and you just, you know, holding on for dear life as the storm comes. As you were describing in Job, like, where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? That is a tough, tough truth to come in to contact with God's sovereignty and to know that we'll never have all the answers this side of heaven. And when I see that, you know, grief journey that you had your four years out now, in those early days, I can't imagine how hard it was to have your son expecting a baby, his. His wife expecting a baby just three weeks after, and to walk through the birth of what somebody that's supposed to be so joyous and such a celebration, but I'm sure a situation that was just cloaked in grief as well and was so bittersweet. What did those early days look like? You talked about, you know, you and Debbie grieving differently. What did it look like to feel like, okay, I want to grieve this, and yet life goes on. Literally. We got to get up, We. We got to get dressed. You got to keep pushing forward. What did your grief journey look like in those early days?
Creating an Inner Circle for Grief Support and Protecting Vulnerability
Dr. Dave Keehn In all honesty, it's. It was just a lot of just being with each other, holding on to each other. There, everything kind of stopped. And, and in God's sovereignty, Adam passed the beginning of the summer. So I was off from the school for. For summer break, and, and the church gave me a couple months off for as long as I wanted to be off. And so, those initial stages were just kind of hunkering down and holding on to each other and, and, having a few people, that we allowed in. I think one of the things that was really hard for. For some people in our church is they wanted to respond and help because that's what most Christians just feel, a need to do something. And yet, in all honesty, we could only really be with those who also were going to grieve with us. In other words, we couldn't be around people who just wanted to do a meal and see how we're doing. We just needed to be with people who were going to cry with us. And so for that first season, we. We had this inner circle that we were really protective of. And, and what was, what was. What was very wise, I think, that we did, is that we, had a second circle around us, and these people played an important role of protecting us from. How many people wanted to have access to us, because as a pastor, as a professor, we were just so known and Adam was so known that there was just. Everybody wanted something with us. In fact, you know, Adam's moral had over a thousand people at it. And it became a time where people just needed a hug from us to know that they were going to be okay. And so the, the, the, the. The, you know, The. The seasons were flipped that instead of receiving comfort, we had to give comfort. And so, that secondary circle after that experience just had became this protective wall. And, and some people, because they weren't in the inner circle, got upset and were. Were hurt that they weren't included. And we just had to say sorry. Just we couldn't accept more people into that inner circle except those who are truly just going to grieve.
Honoring Grief and Relationships While Living in the Shadow of Loss
And then in time, we would reach out, and in time we were able to say to people, hey, when you see us and we're not standing in worship, just know that we're. We're honoring God in our hearts. And if you see us and we're not wanting to give you a hug, we still care about you. I. I actually wrote a letter, email to our church and just kind of explained the season that we are in and, and just know that we care deeply for them, but we're just not in a position where we can receive them in a physical way. And so it is that difficult journey because people actually were, I think, mad at me that I wasn't just rejoicing. Adam was in heaven. When we actually had some people question, why are you crying? He's in heaven. And I'm like, you really don't get it. You know, to lose your child at such a young age. You know, when you think, you know this, this is out of order, this is, unnatural to go straight to, well, hey, praise God, he's in heaven. Is. It's just there's something that you're not honoring about the relationship you had. And that's why we actually call the book Living in the Shadow of Grief that Debbie and I, we tell people like, we died that day too. But the people we are now, by the grace of God, were.
Grief as a Change in Experience Amplified by Hope in God
Were continuing on. But. But even on a great day and we'll be with each other at church, worshiping or at Disneyland, we will still, something will remind us about Adam. And we'll just feel like in the shadow where it's like he's with us and we're living in this moment. And shadows are not necessarily bad. They're just. They change your experience. And that's what grief has done. It has changed us. But, through the power of God, I think we're able to be more now, because of the hope we have and, and what Jesus has accomplished in the, in the resurrection and the heaven and the hope of heaven that we have.
The Gifts of Grief Bearing Witness and Offering Authentic Presence
Dr. Jessica Peck It's so helpful to hear you sharing like this. It's helpful for People who are walking their own grieving journey to know that they're not alone, that they, that and having this response of sorrow and hope, holding pain and hope in the same time, and that tension is really helpful and also to helping other people who are witnessing someone's journey of grief. I have borne witness to the kind of loss that you are describing, Dave. And it is, it's gut wrenching. It is, it's so painful. And you, you want so badly to do something and yet there's nothing really that you can do to fix that loss, to bring that person back. But I think one of the greatest gifts that you can give people who are grieving like that is give them permission to grieve. And exactly like you said, have that inner circle where they're going to see you authentically. Like, you don't feel pressured to comfort them, to perform for them. Like, I know when, when I have been in situations like that, it's maybe that person who's grieving, they come and sit on the couch and then maybe they go back to their room for nine hours and we don't see them again. We just bring them food and, and, and those kinds of things. I know you ment in your book things like bringing meals but having no interaction, just dropping them off. Here's our expression of care. But you have no obligation to give us any emotional energy because you have none. You're depleted in those moments. I think that's really helpful for people to hear people say, and I'm sure it was so hard for you, Dave, because I know, you know, I always say nurses are the worst patients. Like, I always want to be on the giving end of the needle. Like, I don't want to be on the receiving end. It's always so hard for me to be a patient. But I'm sure that was so hard for you to having been in your first responder role and, and bearing witness to people's grief. And then all of a sudden that role is reversed. What was that like for you and your, and your dialogue with the Lord and working out the irony of that situation,
Dr. Dave Keehn you know, I realized, that I had been operating in a system of like, God, I give you my life, but you, that means you're not going to touch certain aspects of my life. You know that. So in my work as a pastor, as a chaplain, you know, I kind of was this in faith, like, God wouldn't do this. God would never allow me to go through this. And so when God touched the most precious part of my Life rocked me. And, it showed me the why we need each other, that I could not do this journey alone. And, and thankfully, Debbie and I had had already a habit of spiritual disciplines that just continued to sustain us. We had deep friendships that we had already invested in that sustained us. I had other men in my life that came alongside and literally, just picked me up. And, and so, I think in that moment, I was. I was so broken. it was almost like a numb state of who was there to help. And, and, and, and so it is difficult sometimes to think that I would accept this, but in, in all honesty, I had no, no options. We were, we were so, at a loss for what was happening.
Dr. Jessica Peck Dave, it is so tough. I'm gonna hold you right there. We're at our next break. When we come back, we'll talk more about that. And I have a lot of questions about the way that Adam's death changed your view of heaven and the hope of heaven that you have and what you have learned as a pastor and just as a Christian in this world about what kind of hope that God gives us for eternity. We'll be right back with more Living in the Shadow of Grief with Dave Keehn Here's Dr. John Oswalt from the American Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks.
Dr. John Oswalt We are inveterate idolaters. We inveterately attempt to find means within the country cosmos where we can achieve our goals, where we can control God for our purposes. And it's astonishing the ways in which we do it. When. When the Old Testament spends so much time attacking idols, we often think, well, I don't have any idols. I don't have any little statues in my closet. I don't pray to some God or something. But idolatry is really the attempt to manipulate the divine through my own efforts. That's what idolatry is. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org.
Christ Our Hope In Life And Death by Keith & Kristyn Getty, Matt Our hope in life and death. Christ alone Christ alone What is our only confidence that our souls to him belong? Who, Holds our days within his head? What comes apart from his command? And what will keep us to the end? The love of Christ in which we stand oh, sing hallelujah I will spare Hallelujah now.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That is Christ. Our hope in life or Death by Keith and Kristyn Getty. And that can be a nice song to sing on Sunday morning, but when you face the reality of losing someone precious to you in death, especially. Especially losing a child, a child who has not lived their full potential of Life, it can be a lot harder to sing those words. And we're talking to someone who has lived that grief journey. We're talking to Pastor Dr. Dave Keehn He has written a book with his wife Debbie, called Living in the shadow of grief, enlarging your capacity to grieve with hope. And, as I said, is a pediatric nurse. And I'm, getting all worked up here because every loss of a child is so precious to me as a nurse, and it's even infinitely more precious to God. And I think about all of those grief journeys that I have borne witness to and the lives that live on and the legacy that lives on in Adam Keehn And. And Adam's parents have started a foundation called the Adam Kean foundation to honor his ministry, his memory. And when I was looking at this, I saw something that his wife wrote, and she wrote a beautiful tribute to him. But let me just read to you a few of her words to describe who Adam was.
Tribute to Adam Keehn's Passion for God and His Legacy for Family
She talks about Adam going into a coffee shop, imagining him going in, big smile. And Adam sits down and starts reading, journaling and highlighting like crazy his book and the Bible, all while saying out loud, m. Wow, that's so good. He reads journals, sips his coffee, takes bites of his croissant, repeats. You decide to go up to him and ask him what his book is about. He greets you with the sweetest smile and then talks your ear off for the next two hours. You see, Adam is so passionate about God and all that he is learning. Adam is confident in the man he is and in what the scriptures say to be true. You already see that the scripture has penetrated his whole life. It flows out of him. And Dave, she goes on to just give such a beautiful tribute to him. And I think about. You mentioned your granddaughter, Kinsley, who is now about 4 years old. And Dave, I imagine that there will be a time when she becomes a teenager, a young adult, that she'll want to know more about who her dad is and was and where he comes from. And she may even seek out interviews like this to see what was said about her dad. What is her dad's legacy? What would you want Kinsley to hear if she listens to this later on and wondering who her dad is?
The Hope of Heaven and Reunification with Loved Ones in Christ
Dr. Dave Keehn everything her mom wrote, Adam loved life. He was a student of God's word, and he was passionate about sharing the good news that he was discovering about Jesus with others, that he wanted people to. How loved and welcomed they were by God into his family. And so, yeah, I think Maddie's, doing a great job at just keeping that knowledge and image of Adam alive. Because even though Kinsey's only four and never met her dad, she talks about Adam all the time when we're together. And it's just. It's, it's beautiful. That's why we, we have hope that, you know, I'm gonna see Adam again. That, this is not the end of Adam's story. So when you think about the reality of heaven, man, I can't wait to, talk with him and share with them and experience life, up there, or wherever heaven is, but experience life with him, a fresh and restored and resurrected again. And so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's that reality that we can grieve with Hope. That's what First Thessalonians 4 talks about. We're not like those who. Who view death as the end, but for those who know Christ, death is. Is a destination change, but that, you know, the eternity that we look forward to. And yeah, so that's, that's that idea of expand your capacity, grieve with hope is knowing that this world is not all there is, and, and so not living for this world only, but for what God has in store for us as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, Dave, you've described your own life, knowing Christ from a very early age, following the Lord, going into ministry, becoming a pastor, being a first responder, wanting to start a family, doing all the things right according to the Christian blueprint that were given, and following God's commands and kind of feeling like you.
Dr. Jessica Peck If.
Dr. Jessica Peck Then proposition like, okay, God, I'm honoring you now. Don't touch these precious parts of my life. And, and he did and allowed this tragedy to happen. And even as a pastor, you know, you. You're talking about your perspective even shifting because of this, and knowing before, knowing before that our hope does spring eternal and that we do not grieve as a people without hope. But it seems like you've been profoundly changed. And the way that you look at heaven, the way you look at com. At eternity, and the confidence with which at it, it has changed. What. What has changed? What gives you more confidence? What do you see more clearly?
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah, I would definitely say even as a pastor and been to seminary, my view of heaven is probably really cartoonish, if I was to be honest, you know, and you people describe it as an eternal worship service. And I'm like, man, even as a pastor, that doesn't excite me like I think it should. And it's when Adam passed. I, you know, I spent a lot of time reading scripture about the present heaven and, and the new heaven, earth to come. And what was Adam's experiencing, what did he know? And, and, you know, what would he be like? And, and when, when I look at the present heaven and see that, you know, there's knowledge there, there's memories that he has, there's character that he is expressing. And then in the new heavens, you have this restoration of all life. And you look at the entirety of the Bible, Heaven is described as a resurrected Eden and a city of God.
Heaven as Resurrected Eden and City of God Purposeful Eternity
And if you think about those two carefully, chosen, kind of declarations and analogies, we see that heaven isn't just us, floating around on clouds with our eternal, worship service. It's. There's culture, there's food, there's worship, there's music, there's work to be done, there's relationships, there's. That we have. And so my, my excitement about heaven has, has increased. You know, my wife and I, we talk all the time like, you know, heaven, we, we can't wait for it to come. You know, we, we know we have a job to do while we're here. We're, we're. We love our grandkids and we love the opportunities God gives us to, to do his work. But, but too often, I think I was living, in all honesty, before I was fasting as I want to live for God's kingdom here on earth, I want to do what I can for his kingdom here on earth. And it was all about this present world. And what I'm realizing is this is just a, foretaste of what God has created. And there is a job for us to do here on this side of heaven. But that's not. The purpose is to stay on this side of heaven. The purpose eventually is to be reunited with, with Christ and to be with those who we love, who know Christ and gone on before us.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, let's go back to a couple of things that you said, because I feel like this is going to perk some ears because much like you, I used to have a cartoonish view is a really good way to put it. I don't think I would have said that, but I pictured like we're, you know, sitting around with harps on clouds. Like, that's what I think. And we'll just live in peace and everybody wears this, like, little white robe with a sash and, you know, that kind of thing. But you just said three words that I think are going to really catch some people's attention. You said, Pete, there's, there's culture and people and or food, I think that was the three words you used. But you said culture and food and places and it's a physical place. I, I started looking at that after the loss of my granny just a few years ago. I wanted to know more about what that was going to look like and what my hope to look like. Cuz I was so close to her and I grieved her loss so deeply. And I was surprised to see that a lot of this is right there in the Bible. So what, what did you see? Go back to those specifics and, and kind of wet people's appetite to say like, hey, this is, this is actually real.
Dr. Dave Keehn Yeah. So I mean, scripture, Old Testament, NewSong Testament, talk about heaven as a resurrected Eden. So when you go back to that Garden of Eden where it's paradise and you saw animals and humanity living and thriving together, where it was meant to be this incredible place of, of goodness. So you have that as your original construct of where God would, desires for people to be. And then you, you hear it talking about the City of God. The City of God. Well, cities are full of culture, cities are full of activities, cities are full of, of, of music and, and food that celebrate. We hear about the Feast of God, the Feast of the Lamb and Revelation. But you have this, this idea that we're meant to do activities and work. And even when, you know, you see Christ, you know, say well done, good and faithful servant. It's always this idea of God is including us and inviting us to do something even more. And so for us to think that heaven is simply us sitting around, I think would be so boring. That we were created to have purpose and activity and work. You saw that even in the Garden of Eden that there was work to be done. And so I think when we think of heaven, it's going to be great work where you're not sweating, you're not in pain, you're not having, you know, failures of your work. You're just going to be serving your, your place and having joy with the people that you knew and loved and will be reunited with. and that's what I look forward to. So much work.
Dr. Jessica Peck That's the one I forgot. Yes, Culture, food and work. And, and it does, it makes me excited to look forward.
Strengthening Marriage Through Grief Giving Permission and Building Resilience
But God has given us a mission here on earth that's going to impact that work that we do in eternity. And we've got to steward our journey well. And that can Be really hard when we counter grief like you have experienced. And one of the things that you talk about, of course, this book is written by both you and your wife, and you talk about how it changes marriage. What have you learned in your marriage journey through this grieving process?
Dr. Dave Keehn I learned. We both learned to give each other the permission to grieve as well or as long as we needed to. In other words, we. We took away the timelines. You know, I'm more of a extrovert. I wanted to be around people. My wife was very different. And so we said, okay, I'm gonna go. And in all that reality, before we went back to the church, I went back to the fire station with. With guys that knew hardships and knew our story. And I could just be with a small group of guys and. And, you know, my wife just wanted to be with her best friend and talk. And so we found ways that we are allowing each other to grieve. and we didn't put each other on a timeline to say, well, you have to be this way by this time. But the other thing that was very true is the practices that my wife and I had of going on walks regularly, of dating each other regularly, of sharing scripture with each other. You know, our. We didn't do devotions together, but we would often talk about what we were reading in our own journeys. Those things became muscle memory. And really so vital in helping us through that that the time to develop your marriage is not when crisis hits. It's. It's going to reveal the resilience that you've already built into your marriage. And so, I. I actually tell a lot of the couples that we meet with, like, hey, work on your marriage at all times, because you're going to need it when you go through hardships. And when the hardship does come, give each other permission to grieve as you want, but also seek those who could really help. And so both my wife and I got counseling, both together and individually, we gave each other permission to. To.
Dr. Dave Keehn To just, walk through that process, in the way that they each. We each needed to do. And I think that was very, very helpful.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, it's one thing to live out this grief journey publicly, you know, as you are pastor and leading your church. And I know you talked about how people wanted to know that you were going to be okay so they could be okay. And living this out, it's another thing completely to write the book, but that tells me that's how strong your conviction was to Share the help and the hope that you received in this journey. Tell us what and. And we're right at the end of our time together, Dave, and I hate that. But in just a minute, tell us what you hope that someone reading this book would get from what they read.
Dr. Dave Keehn I hope they gain an understanding of what grief is doing to them.
Understanding Grief's Impact Expanding Life's Capacity and Helping Others Grieve
In other words, grief, because it's sudden and. And can be random, sometimes we hear, we see it coming, but sometimes it's just unexpected. And that really does challenge our faith. It challenges our relationships. So the more that you can understand how grief changes you, I hope, you'll be able to respond to it better. I hope that through the power and the grace of God, that you'll see that grief is this ball in a jar. And it's not that the grief is getting smaller, it's that your life, the jar is getting bigger. And so through the power and grace of God, you're able to move forward. Different, but move forward. And then for those who are walking alongside people who are grieving, you just understand what they're going through. So you know what to do and what not to do, what not to say that you actually can be helpful and not hurtful.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, Dave, thank you so much to you and Debbie for being so transparent and sharing your journey. And, you know, there's a temptation in our culture to think that healing means, like, just, oh, we're now again the person we were before the loss. But that's not always what healing looks like. Sometimes grief just changes us permanently.
Carrying Grief into a New Reality with Hope and Faith in Christ
But the story of grief is not we stop loving the person we've lost or we get better. It's how do we carry that into a new reality and have hope? And when that day comes, may we be people who know how to grieve, honesty, honestly and love faithfully and hold on to the hope we have in Christ. And I thank you so much for sharing that with us today. And wherever you are and whatever you're doing, I, pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. Be gracious to you and give you peace. I'll see you here next time.
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Dr. Dave Keehn talks with Jessica about how grief can reshape, refine, and mature us.
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