Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nursemama show, prescribing hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome. Welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And we need it. It just feels like the news cycle continues to be so such a challenge. And every time we open our phones, every time we open the news, I don't know about you, but I'm tempted to just engage in the perpetual doom scroll where you just see everything that's wrong with the world. You see a discouraging headline, and before you know it, you've spent way too much time reading the comments and then feeling disheartened about the conflict that is going on and just all things that are wrong in the world. And I'm telling you that God is doing a, work, because even in behind the scenes, all of the prep that we do for the show, let me tell you that we pray frequently, daily for our listeners, and we pray that God would give us guidance and connect us to the right people who would bring the right message at just the right time when you need it, that we would serve you well. And it seems like I've had an avalanche of people this week talking about joy. And every conversation I have, I come away. I'm, deeply convicted. I, I learned something new and I have some insight. And going forward, and I believe that the enemy does come to steal and kill and destroy. And one of the things that is being taken or that we're giving away freely is our joy. So I don't know about you, but this is something I, have been on the struggle bus, feeling overwhelmed with just life and the heaviness of living. And so today we're going to take a moment for a Mental health Monday, and we're all going to take a pause and talk about daring joy. Now, I'm really delighted to invite back to the show Nicole Zasowski. She has been on before and she is going to talk to us about her new book. She's talked to us many times about other topics and her last book, which I have right here, what if it's Wonderful? Release your fears. Choose joy, and find the courage to celebrate. We talked about this. I'd encourage you to go back and listen to those other shows because they have been really, really encouraging and just breaking down those concepts of mental health, connecting it to our spiritual health, because it already is Connected. But having those connections made so we understand how they relate is really helpful. And Nicole, in talking about Joy today, she said this is a quote from her. I was sure that celebration always came with a catch. So I became practiced in praying for the miracle while preparing to mourn and dreaming while rehearsing disaster. And that is something that we can all relate to. And so this new book that she has is a Bible study for women. But man or woman, child or grandchild or grandparent, wherever you are in life, there are lessons here for us to learn from six women in the Bible who teach us about the power of celebration. Women when it feels risky, complicated, and even impossible. And so she'll be sharing that with us. Nicole, we're so glad to have you. Thank you so much for joining us for this Mental Health Monday.
Nicole Zasowski: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be back.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I always feel encouraged talking to you. And you have the ability, Nicole, to break down really complex topics that seem kind of abstract and make it very relatable and very practical. And as you've shared your story before and your own personal life experience experiences, I want to know what led to you writing this specific book, this specific message about Joy right at this. At a time as this M.
Nicole Zasowski: Well, you mentioned my. My previous trade book, what if It's Wonderful? And when I finished that book, I just had a sense I wasn't quite done, that there was more the Lord wanted to do, both in my own heart and with what I shared. And when you write a book, you know what a message means to you, but you don't necessarily know what the message is going to mean to other people. And I was really, blown away by how far reaching that message was in what if it's wonderful about Joy specifically, and how far it applied to stories that were very different than my own. And in the midst of that, even in my own Bible study, the Lord continued to reveal things, on the topic of Joy as I went deeper into his word. And so I knew that we had to continue the conversation with a Bible study format. And I'm so glad we did. I learned so much from the stories of these six women, and I'm really hopeful so far. It seems that readers are learning a lot from their, stories as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, we can learn so much. You know, you would think, what would I have in common in a woman who lived thousands of years ago? But remarkably, more and more, Nicole, I find that human struggles are human struggles across the course of time, and they may be changed by modern context, whether how we communicate and things like that. But the heart of the issue, the emotions of the issue, they are remarkably the same. And I've been saying this over and over the summer. I've traveled some ancient paths and just thinking, seeing that and seeing how much wisdom there is. And, you know, you are a licensed marriage and family therapist, Nicole, and so your job is to kind of hear people's difficult stuff, to hear their struggles all day, every day. So not only do you see that just on a personal context, just reading the news as an individual consumer, you see that every day. You see, literally behind closed doors, people's struggles that they're having. And people are facing some real stuff. Some of it is because of, you know, their own choices and consequences of their choices. Some of it, they're completely innocent. You know, I think about the people we're watching these tragedies unfold. People, losing loved ones, children, even in the floods. How do we even begin to talk about joy when we, say, also acknowledge that life is really hard?
Nicole Zasowski: Yeah, no, it's. It's an interesting time to be talking about joy when it feels like the world, in many ways, is on fire. And I know that, too, is not new. as I look at the stories of these six women in the Bible, you know, many of them were living their lives during times of tumultuous struggle. and I think we have to redefine what we mean by joy or what it can look like, because I think especially in American culture, we're used to seeing it. You know, celebration and joy is a reaction to good news or a reward for an accomplishment, something that sits on the far side of some sort of change in our circumstances. And certainly feelings go up, down, and all around, we are feeling human beings paying attention to a broken world, and we're going to have feelings in response to that. But as we look at biblical joy, what I see is that it's not a reaction or a reward. It's practiced as a rhythm. And what that rhythm does is it reminds us of the steadfast character of God that's unchanging. And it reminds us of his faithfulness in the past, which then fuels our curiosity of how might God move? What might he do? Can I celebrate that I have this anchor, of hope for my soul? Is that where I can find my joy? Now, the thing about an anchor is that it only works when it's outside the boat. So we have to have our hope and our joy outside of ourselves in order for it to be an enduring joy. Otherwise, it's not. It's a feeling that can come and go. And that doesn't mean that we, you know, that this negates, the very difficult things that we are experiencing. It just means we have a hope and a joy that cannot be taken from us in the midst of that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think people long for that more than anything. They want a hope and a joy that can't be taken from them. Because in this day of cancel culture, where just, it seems like the news cycle changes and what is celebrated today is canceled tomorrow, and nothing seems certain, even the things that seem most certain. And I think that, you know, especially among Christians, you, you find this, like when you experience a season of blessing or you experience something good. We've talked about this a little bit before. They find that it's almost risky. And I hear this phrase a lot, like, I don't want to tempt fate. Like, don't say anything. Don't. Now, well, now something good's happened. So something bad is going to happen now because, you know, it's going to be my time to have a trial. Why do we do this? Is this our personality? Is this our life experience? Is this superstition? Like, why, why do we do that? Why is it so hard to, like, step out into joy and feel like we're tempting fate?
Nicole Zasowski: it's a great question. I think we love to think of it as personality. Like I hear all the time, I'm just a realist, or, you know, we put ourselves in these boxes. But what we often, what we love to call personality is actually reactivity. And this is absolutely the case here. And it could be from pain rooted in personal experience in the past. I know it certainly was. For me, that's, you know, the pain that bore the message of what if? It's wonderful and daring joy. but it's reactivity. It's an attempt at control in the midst of vulnerability and uncertainty that we experience in life. And the form that that control takes is pessimism and cynicism. Pessimism is holding a lack of hope for the future. Cynicism is doubting other people's motives, including God's. So if you've ever thought something like, well, God would do that for her or him, but not for me, that would be an example of protecting your hope, protecting against the vulnerability of hope and joy with cynicism. And so it's, it's really a, ah, reaction to pain, whether that's feeling vulnerable or unsafe. it's A reaction against that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's really tough. And thinking about that. But I think that, you know, there's so many people. Nicole, it just seems like at this point in human history, I mean, I, know there are points that have been really difficult. I look back to my grandparents who went through World War II and talked about the challenges of the world. But it just seems like for the last five years, there's been so much global conflict. We come through the separation that was caused by Covid. We've had a very, you know, politically tumultuous time. It just seems like there are a lot of people who have experienced a lot of difficulty. And it's hard, I think, to hold on to God's gifts and to accept something good that happens to you because of exactly what you're talking about. It's really uncomfortable to think about, oh, that's my vulnerability that I'm protecting. And what you just talked about, I just wrote that down. Pessimism and cynicism. It's so true. And I see us as a collective society growing more pessimistic and growing more cynical.
Neuroscience says Thanksgiving is the only way to tolerate vulnerability of joy
And those are not, last time I checked, Galatians. Those are not fruits of the spirit. You know, it's not love, joy, peace, patience.
Nicole Zasowski: Not been added to the list.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes. There's no pessimism and cynicism. That is not a spiritual badge of honor. Right. but we think about, you know, the things that we're commanded to do scripturally seem to be very radically contradictory. That love believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. I mean, I think about all of these things. So how do we hold on to God's gifts without just having that intense fear of losing the things that we love?
Nicole Zasowski: Well, you know, my perspective, that neuroscience has always just catching up to scripture.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Amen.
Nicole Zasowski: What the neuroscience tells us is that Thanksgiving, the practice of Thanksgiving, is the only way to tolerate that vulnerability of joy. So if you, like me, encounter the goodness of God in your life or some breakthrough in your story that you've prayed for for a long time, or a blessing of some kind of. And you're finding it really, really hard, requiring a lot of courage to hang on to that gift without thinking, well, I'm going to hold it at arm's length because maybe it'll go away tomorrow, or I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, or, you know, things have been really good. I'm wondering when I'm going to get. When things are going to turn, because, you know, life always balances itself out you know, this is all thoughts of protection against that vulnerability of joy. So if that's you, the practice of Thanksgiving, which we see in scripture all over the place, is the only way to move through that and have the courage to actually hold on to that joy. Now, Thanksgiving is different than gratitude. Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that I feel in my heart. And we can talk more about that difference and how to practice it, too.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Let's do that. Oh, my goodness. That, See, every time you. Come on, Nicole. I write stuff down. Thanksgiving gives us courage to hold on to joy. And Thanksgiving, you've been so bold as just to say, is the only thing that will give us courage to hold on to joy. Well, my friend, if you are like me and looking at the world around us thinking, oh, my goodness, what shoe is going to drop next? Well, this is the show for you on Mental Health Monday. We're talking about Nicole. We're talking with Nicole Zasowski and her new Bible study, Daring Joy and what six women in the Bible teach us about the power of celebration when it feels risky, complicated, and even impossible. More to come after this break.
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Abide by Aaron Williams and Dwell Songs: for my waking breath, for my daily. Bread. I depend on you. I depend on, you. For the sun to rise. For my sleep at night. I depend on you. Yes, I depend on you. You're the way, the truth and the life You're the well that never runs dry. I'm the branch and you are the vine. Draw me close and teach me to abide.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is abide by Aaron Williams. And I think of the scripture from John chapter 15, where Jesus is telling his disciples, I am the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. Apart me for me, you can do nothing. It goes on in that chapter in, verse nine, he says, as the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. I've been sharing with you that joy is something that is coming up repeatedly. And I know that, there is a thief who was after my joy for sure. And I am sure that I am not alone in this. And so buckle up, because we're going to have a few more shows. We're preparing already talking about finding joy. And today I'm talking to one of my favorite guests, Nicole Zasowski. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and author, and her latest Bible study is called Daring Joy. What six women in the Bible teach us about the power of celebration, even if it feels risky, complicated, and even impossible. And so we are in the middle of a conversation here, and, Nicole, before the break, you were just starting to give us some really great insight about gratitude, differentiating gratitude from Thanksgiving. But really, Thanksgiving, what you said, being the only thing that gives us courage to hold on to joy. This comes from. You and I are on the same page on this, that science is catching up with scripture. This is in scripture, in Philippians. So I'm going to let you finish giving. Finish your thought. And telling us, how is Thanksgiving the one thing that gives us courage to hold on to joy?
Nicole Zasowski: Yes. So I was, mentioning that Thanksgiving is different than gratitude, because I used to use those terms and ideas interchangeably, but I've actually learned that they're different. And the difference makes, it's important in terms of, being able to tolerate that vulnerability of joy. So Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel in our hearts. And what research says is that while gratitude does increase our joy as we notice and name what is good in our lives, Thanksgiving actually saying out loud what we are thankful for increases the joy that we would experience had we simply felt grateful in our hearts. So, whether that's saying it out loud to God in your prayers or whether that is connecting with somebody in your life and looking them in the eye and saying, this is the difference that you make in my life. I'm so thankful that God wove our stories together. And I just want you to let you know, this is the difference our friendship makes. It increases our joy. And studies show that it actually helps us when joy feels vulnerable. So. And I think this is probably because of, what we read in scripture as well, that recounting, as I was saying in the beginning of this conversation, recounting, you know, practicing joy as a rhythm, what we're doing is we're essentially saying, thank you, God for who you are, and thank you, God for the ways you've been faithful to me in the past, help that give me courage and curiosity for all the ways you're going to move in this joy that I'm having a hard time holding onto.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It can be hard to hold onto it. And you know, I'm sure, Nicole, you've been seeing along with me all of the headlines talking about the recent flooding that happened. And I think of, all loss of life is absolutely tragic. But the story of Camp mystic and an entire, cabin of little girls who were, who died in the flood, it has just gripped the nation. And I, I've gotten text messages and emails from people all over the world who know that, you know, I live close to this area and talking about how this has really occupied their thoughts, that they felt so sad about it, they felt anxious about it. I've heard many moms say this is my worst nightmare. Because when something bad happens, sometimes, Nicole, as a coping mechanism, we try to think, well, how was that person different? How would I have not done what they did so that I wouldn't be in that position? And then we. It's hard to be grateful because if we think, how do we be grateful and express thanksgiving for, you know, my children are here, they're alive. How do we walk through some of those things? because I see it's impacting collective mental health. So what are some practical ways that, that we can try to even begin to process some of those emotions that happen when we see tragedy happen to other people and we start to be afraid or maybe even feel guilty that rated will happen to us or feel guilty that it didn't happen to us?
Nicole Zasowski: Sure. It's so tough and complicated and I'm a mom of young children as well. And I had a camp drop off the very next day.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, goodness.
Nicole Zasowski: of that tragedy and so very different. Area of the country, of course, very different, different circumstances, but it still crossed my mind, was heavy on my heart, just having so much compassion for those moms, experiencing what, to be honest with you, is one of my worst nightmares. I mean, I think any mom shares that feeling. and I think the practice of Thanksgiving is going to be helpful in terms of when you're imagining, you know, you're kind of trying on that tragedy in your own life. I think that's easy to do. and that's a means of control. Again, when we start trying to, okay, well, how is that different than me? And, you know, that's our brain trying to make sense of something where there really isn't any making sense of it. it's just heartbreaking and sad and part of the brokenness of this world.
Savoring practice of savoring can help reduce anxiety, Nicole says
so Thanksgiving for the life that you've been given to steward, is going to be helpful, I think, savoring the practice of savoring, which is also a joy practice, but it also is very helpful for anxiety. It's, just asking your five senses what they're going to remember about this moment. And what that does is an anxious mind either races to the future, where we try to scan the environment for danger, or it races to the past, where it thinks about what we could have, should have, would have done differently. The problem is we're not empowered to make choices in the future or the past. And so when we start to try to control where we have no empowerment or agency, it creates anxiety. So what savoring does, asking your five senses what they're experiencing now, it keeps our mind very present. And then we start focusing on, okay, what am I actually empowered to do? What is the next right thing? I'm going to pack my child for camp. I'm going to put the. Put the bag on his bunk bed. I'm going, you know, and so on and so forth. But it keeps us where we're actually empowered in our own homes with the children that God has given us. And that is what's going to reduce a lot of anxiety, even as you grieve and have compassion for these other families that are grieving and struggling.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so hard. But you're so right, because as trying to control in the past or the future, we just don't have that. And so I know that's a struggle for me, Nicole, is being present. It's just thinking, okay, what is the joy that God has given me in the presence? Because I think even those, you know, parents who Lost their children. They would say, appreciate what you have, hold on to what you have. You know, the joy of that is so fragile. And in looking at this Bible study that you have written and looking at six women, you know, I think about women we read about in the Bible, women who have grief over losing children and grief over similar circumstances that we appreciate today. What did you learn as you were studying these six women? And was there anything that surprised you in thinking this is surprisingly relatable in those life experiences across even thousands of years?
Nicole Zasowski: Yes. Well, these six women are in. In the study because I saw myself at least a piece of myself in each of them. But I'm often asked, which one do you relate to the most? And I think Sarah is the one that really held up the mirror to my own struggle with the vulnerability of joy. You know, here she receives this gift from God, the very gift she has prayed for for years and thought her time had passed in being able to bear a son. And she receives this gift and she laughs with cynicism, because it's too vulnerable to hold that gift that God is promising to her. It's too vulnerable to take God at his word. And that really held up the mirror to the way that I interact with God around joy, and wanted to do it differently. And then Elizabeth is my model. I am so inspired by the way she's able to practice joy when few others could. You know, God had been silent for 400 to 500 years. It's not difficult to imagine that her people would have held hope and given up generation after generation, holding these promises of the Messiah, but seeing no fulfillment of that promise. And yet she rejoices immediately because she knows God and recognizes his movement in her lives, in her life, and in the life of her people. And she's able to practice a lot of what the neuroscience research has just done, discovering our practices that are very helpful. We see almost all of those practices in. In her example, in Luke 1.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Absolutely. And you talk about them experiencing joy. But your book is called Daring Joy, which I think it does feel like, you know, it does feel daring to be joyful. And so what. What did you. What did you mean by that phrase? What do you see as not only just having joy, but a daring joy?
Nicole Zasowski: I don't think we often think of joy as a vulnerable feeling and a feeling that requires us to be daring and courageous. But in fact, joy is one of the most vulnerable feelings you feel, because when we hold something, it is automatically accompanied by the possibility of loss. And if you're listening, you know that if you've been through trauma or pain of any kind of. It can feel safer not to hold that joy at all than to hold something that might break. And I saw this lifelong struggle since the beginning of time. You know, the first woman in the Bible study is Eve. So that shows you how early this began, as she struggled to trust God's joy above her own version of that. but we see the vulnerability of joy and how much courage it takes, to actually hold joy. But. But also practice it when circumstances don't necessarily lend itself to that. And yet there's so much healing and hope and celebration and joy that's available to us when we're actually able to do that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes, it is interesting to look at all of these women and. And, you know, when I see the women that you talked about in the Bible study, you have Eve, Sarah Miriam, Mary Elizabeth, and then Mary Magdalene, you know, you don't think, oh, Mary Magdalene, she was a joyful character in the Bible, that's a story about joy. But I think the fact that you even found it there talks to what joy is. And looking at, you know, what you talked about before, what, what is joy? And how do we discover that? And so. And looking at. Let's talk about Mary Magdalene in particular, because, you talk about how we come face to face with the joy that's available to us when we share the greatest joy, which is Jesus himself. And I always think about, you know, the verse from Nehemiah that says, the joy of the Lord is our strength. It's not just like, oh, feeling of happiness and celebration. This is where we get our strength from the joy of the Lord, and he shares that joy with us. What did you learn about Mary Magdalene?
Nicole Zasowski: She is so interesting because she is, I feel, like a very familiar character to people. But her story. We only get very short glimpses of her story, but they pack a punch. And I think what really struck me about her is her initial rescue, with Jesus rescuing her, and how she recognized that she was a recipient of profound grace and how that fueled her love and devotion to Jesus. And what the takeaway is from her story is when she realized, that Jesus had risen from the dead, she encountered the resurrection Savior. She was the first one to encounter him. She couldn't tell others and spread that joy fast enough. And one of the things we're learning is that one of the best ways to increase your joy is to share good news. So you can only imagine how our joy is increased when we Share the good news, the hope of Jesus with other people. And that's exactly what she did, at the end of those Gospels. So, you know, her, her rescue, her profound need for grace fueled her love and her devotion to Jesus. And then she did not stop there. She couldn't keep it to herself. It overflowed into sharing it with other people.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think you're so right, Nicole. I think we do need to share our joy. There is a hunger in this world for good news because we're so inundated with bad news. Bad news is what sells, what and what causes media clicks and thinking about, you know, just. It's very difficult. But when we see people who are holding on to joy in spite of trial, in spite of trauma, that gives us great encouragement that we can do that, too. And I encourage you to pick up a copy of Nicole's book, Daring Joy what six Women in the Bible Teach Us about the power of celebration when it feels risky, complicated, and. And even impossible. We'll have more to talk about how you can find your own joy when we come back. We'll see you right after this break. And my father, your great grandfather, fought in World War II. Really? He was a gunner on the big ship out in the Pacific Ocean. Wow. Your great grandmother did her part, too. Was she on a ship? Oh, no. She stayed back home. She and a lot of her friends worked really hard in a factory because the men had gone off to war and they held scrap metal drives to help in the war effort. The folks back home were heroes, too.
Jeff Chamblee: Here at the American Family association, we consider you the heroes back home as you fulfill your responsibility of caring for your family day to day. Your partnership with us is crucial as we fight the enemies of freedom in America. Thank you for your commitment to the American Family Association. Grandpa, what's a scrap metal drive? Let's get some cookies and I'll tell you all about it.
Trust In God by Elevation Worship: I trust in God, my savior, the one who will never. Fail. He will never fail.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is trust in God by elevation worship. And that's really what we're talking about today, is not only how do we trust in God, how do we trust him enough to have a good daring joy when it seems like circumstances dictate pessimism and cynicism. Well, talking today to licensed marriage and family therapist Nicole Zasowski on this mental health Monday, where we're all taking a collective look at how do we find joy in a world that seems anything but joyful? She has written a new Bible study called Daring Joy We've talked before. She's been on the show talking about her book what if It's Wonderful. Release your fears, choose joy and find the courage to celebrate. And Nicole has been sharing with us how God has continued to take that message of finding joy. And Nicole and I have been talking about how amazing it is that we can just get so much wisdom and encouragement from the Bible. And so looking at these six women that Nicole examined, all of their experiences with Joy and what we could learn about it.
Nicole, you focus on comparison and comparing our joy in Bible study
Nicole, I want to go back to one that you have in session four, and this is, is Miriam where you focus on comparison and comparing our joy. Because we, most of us have heard it said comparison is the thief of joy. And I, and you and I have talked about before about how difficult the comparison culture can be, especially on social media. Even if we're not on social media, we are all engaged in image crafting and how do we appear to the world and making sure everything looks perfect and we see played out in real time right up front. And especially with influencer culture, there may be people who are sharing their journey with the best of intentions and there's nothing wrong with what they're sharing at all. But the only thing wrong in your heart is that what they're sharing they have or, that they're getting is the thing that you want that you don't have. And that may be a relationship, it may be a job, it may be a reconciliation, it may be a, you know, just any, any number of things. But what did you learn in particular about Miriam and comparison?
Nicole Zasowski: Yeah, she's such an interesting character and to include in the Bible study because a lot of the women kind of lean in one direction or another in terms of what showing us what can keep us from joy or an example of practicing joy. And she's an interesting blend of both. On the one hand, we see her, you know, leading the Israelite people in the first worship song on record after their rescue from ah, slavery in Egypt. And she's a leader in, for the Israelite people. God has given her a position. but I love the CS Lewis quote that I'll paraphrase. I won't get it exactly. But, you know, he says, pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than somebody else. And this proves to be true for Miriam when she has this position, which was rare as a woman of leadership in her community. But she looks at Moses and says, well, it's not as high a position as him, and I don't have as many responsibilities and privileges as he does. And she becomes dissatisfied. And we see both her and Eryn, her other sibling, are grumbling that their jobs don't look like Moses, even though what they have is really special and really wonderful. They compare and they lose the joy in their own position. And there's consequences of that. and then later we see, I think, a beautiful story in Moses life of the antidote to comparison. But that is one of the first and most clear examples we see of comparison in the Bible. And I thought it was so interesting.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, it is so interesting in so many ways, because when we think of Miriam, most people are thinking of, you know, her role and putting Moses in the basket and being in the water. You don't really think about her later position in life. And just like what we talked about, Nicole, how is this not relatable? Oh, siblings comparing each other themselves to each other and having jealousy and sibling rivalry. Oh, yeah, right. That's completely unrelatable. It is so relatable. And so what do you learn from that? How does that comparison. What do you see as a therapist, Nicole? And how comparison impacts our mental health? And I think it's very stealthy. We don't even realize that we are letting it impact our mental health negatively. But it will do that for sure.
Nicole Zasowski: Absolutely. I mean, you've mentioned it drains our joy. And there's a reason that that is such a common idea, that comparison is the thief of joy. What you once were satisfied with and finding so much delight and pleasure in it will drain that right out of your heart if you start looking from left to right. I think the other, related, but different point on that is what we touched on earlier with empowerment. We're only empowered over the life God has given us and the agency he's given us to steward our own life. We are not called to steward somebody else's life. And so when we start looking from side to side and wishing that our life was maybe more like that person we follow on Instagram or our neighbor or the other mom at school who seems to have it all together at pickup, and our kids are not all together, you know, whatever it is. I think looking from side to side, we're now spending energy on an area that God has not given us agency. He's given us empowerment over our own life, just like he gave Miriam her role, not Moses role. And so not only are we futile in somebody else's life, but we become ineffective in our own because we are not stewarding what God has given us to steward.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a really interesting perspective on that. Because when I think about, you know, when we're looking at other people's experiences and we're comparing them as we're talking about, we're so much more likely to jump into someone else's sorrow than we are into their celebration. Somehow sorrow seems so much more relatable. If some, you know, misfortune falls somewhat. I mean, some of them just grip our hearts and they just rip our hearts to a million pieces. And we do feel genuine compassion, we want to step in, we want to express condolences or whatever that is. Or even, you know, if someone. But, even on a much lesser scale, if someone experiences something that's difficult, it's easy for us to step into that. Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. Oh, how can I help? Oh, you're so great.
Nicole Zasowski: Yeah.
Dr. Jessica Peck: But when something great happens, you know, we don't step in and say, like, oh, hey, that's. That's amazing. Why is it so much more comfortable for us to step into that sorrow rather than step into that celebration and lift other people up?
Nicole Zasowski: It's so interesting. When I first started talking about these themes of joy and celebration, that's one of the things that women, shared with me the most often was, oh, it is so much easier to mourn with those who mourn than to rejoice with those who rejoice.
Nicole Zasowski asks what it looks like to rejoice with those who rejoice
And so one of the questions I really wanted to tackle because I think we hear don't compare, don't compare over and over again. But we're not really given a lot of direction on what we should do instead, and what it actually looks like to rejoice with those who rejoice. And interestingly enough, it was Moses later in the Israelites journey in Deuteronomy 3, a story between him and Joshua that really illuminated this for me. And it's been powerful as I've practiced it. And so just for context, the Israelites are so close to the promised land that they can actually see it in the distance. And as many of us know, Moses has been the leader of the Israelite people. But because he disobeyed God earlier in his story, he was told he would not get to enter the promised land and he would not be the one to lead God's people there. And so he goes up on this mountain and he talks to God. And I love his honesty. He says, essentially, can I please be the one? Can you change your mind? Can I lead your people in? And God gives an emphatic no, which is challenging. But what I'm really challenged by is what God says next. He says, I want you to commission Joshua, which essentially means, I want you to prepare Joshua for the job that you would love to have for yourself. M And that really showed me that not comparing or rejoicing with those who rejoice doesn't simply look like finding a way to accept other people's joy. It means that we look for ways to accelerate it. How can I prepare? Take an active role in helping somebody further their dream. Maybe I have a connection that could be helpful to them. Or maybe I'm going to commit to a regular rhythm of prayer. Or maybe I'm going to make something with my hands that helps celebrate their dream. And sometimes the pushback I get is, Nicole, I want to be authentic. I want to be sincere. I want to want to do that. But my feelings are not there. And this is also hard. We can think and act our way to a new feeling. We cannot feel our way to a new way of thinking and acting. So I encourage people to take the action anyway, even if you don't feel it, because it's not fake. It's formation. Getting our hands active in celebrating somebody else and actively accelerating their dream is actually what's going to change our own hearts. And I found it to be true every single time in my own life.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really convicting because when I think about my general attitude, my own personal attitude, I'm talking about Jessica's attitude. When I read the news. Honestly, Nicole, it is really hard not to feel pessimistic, not to feel cynical about just the outcome of the world, about the status of politics, of culture, of government, of. You name it. I mean, just you feel that way. How do we talk to us more about the practical, getting control of those feelings? I love what you said. Say that again. About how we can't feel our way to a new way of thinking. I think that's how you said it. We can think our way to a new way of. Of feeling. And I think about, like, taking every thought captive. But what are some practical first steps for that person who thinks, I want to be joyful? I really do. I. I want to rejoice with those who rejoice. And I. I want to have a positive outlook, but I just feel very pessimistic and cynical. What are some practical ways that they can walk through those feelings?
Nicole Zasowski: I mean, there's an endless list, I think, holding hope, in general, as you know, whether it's the Culture that gets you down or the political climate or whatever it is, the state of the world. I think there's many, many ways that we can hold hope. I mentioned joy being a practice of remembrance so often. one thing I do regularly is collect sea glass. It's sort of. I live by the Connecticut shoreline, so there's tons of that where I am. And you might have, you know, another rhythm or ritual that you do, almost daily as your way of connecting with God and praying. And every time now I'm on a Connecticut shoreline. That's my rhythm of remembering who God is. His character is unchanging. He has been faithful to me so far. I know he will be faithful. Any sort of rhythm that reminds you of those two truths, it's kind of a modern, your own version of an ebenezer, which was an altar of remembering God's help in the Old Testament, a pile of stones. But I think we can come up with our own rhythm of joy and rhythm of remembrance that serves as an Ebenezer in my life, in our life. So mine is collecting sea glass. You can come up with your own that fits with your own area. I think when it comes to celebrating somebody else again, the sky's the limit. I know for me, having had multiple miscarriages, there was a long season where celebrating my friends babies was really hard. As much as I wanted to be able to do that, my feelings just were not there. But I happened to move into this house. I did not landscape a thing myself, but the only thing growing in the yard were pink roses and blue hydrangeas. So every time there was a news of a baby, I would cut blue hydrangeas for a boy or pink roses for a girl. And I'll be darned if by the time that bouquet wasn't done, my heart had shifted a little bit, to where I wanted it to be. So, again, thinking of your own ways of blessing your friends, I guarantee again, we can think and act our way to a new feeling. We can't wait for that feeling to lead us to a new way of thinking and acting.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that is a compelling take home message, Nicole. And I encourage you out there. I am taking this myself and, and trying to think about those feelings and just walk through in obedience. And God is in the details. Nicole, I firmly believe that, you know, even in growing those two particular flowers in your front yard, there is no such thing as coincidence. God cares for us so deeply, and you've done such a great job of weaving that through the stories of these six women in the Bible who teach us about joy, looking at the stories of Eve and Sarah and Miriam and Mary and Elizabeth and Mary Magdalene. And we can have daring joy, not only joy, but dare to have joy. Because as I told you earlier in John, Jesus says, in this world you will have trouble, but we can take heart. We can be of good cheer because he leaves us his peace, not as the world gives, but as he can only give. So thank you so much to Nicole Zasowski again. Her book is called Daring Joy. A Bible study might be a great thing for you to have in your house or in your workplace and wherever you are, wherever you are, whatever you are doing to try to find joy. I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you and give you peace. And hey, I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
