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Kyle Worley: and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And listen, we've got a great dose of it for you today. we know, we all know because we're talking about it every day in our communities and our families here on the show. We know that we are living in a time where our children are, growing up in a world that is so different than what we wish it would be. It is a world that is filled, especially right now, with messages of confusion about truth, about identity, about what to fear and what not to fear, what it means to be strong. And culture is constantly telling kids and telling adults, too, if we're really honest, to look inward for courage to we get to tell our own story, define our own reality, fight our own battles, be the hero in our own story. But the truth is, the scripture tells a very different story. It tells us that there is a very real battle between good and evil. And it tells us that we are actually not, in fact, the hero, but it also tells us that we are not alone. And today's guest is helping families reclaim that story in a way that children can actually understand, giving timeless but biblical truths. We've got Kyle Worley with us today. He's a husband, a father, a pastor, and his latest releases are kids books. Now, before I tell you about this one, I want you to think back to your childhood. And I know that there has got to be some special book somewhere that someone read to you that brings back special memories. Maybe that was a parent, a grandparent, a teacher, even opening a book in a classroom. And there is something really special that happens when we open the pages of a story and especially a story that God has put on the heart of children. And so, you know, if you are a regular listener, that I am a very big advocate of paper books, real physical books. There's a time and place for technology. I'm not against that, but I really still believe in investing in a, children's library. And he has written a new book, I have it right here in my hands, called the Dragon Slayer and His Super Special Suit. And he's also written other books. he's an author, and he is the host of the Knowing Faith podcast alongside Jen Wilkin and J.T. english. Now, he was inspired by bedtime stories with his daughter. And this book right here, this one today, the Dragon Slayer. It introduces kids to the gospel through the imagery of a victorious hero, a defeated enemy, and the armor of God that equips us to stand firm. We know this from Ephesians. So today we're going to talk about why stories like this make matter so much, especially right now, and how parents can disciple their children in these everyday moments. Books are one of the most underutilized discipleship resources, I believe, and how we can raise kids who are not just entertained, but anchored in truth and fearless in, faith. Kyle, so glad to have you. Thank you for joining us, Jessica.
Kyle Worley: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
The Dragon Slayer story came from trying to tell the gospel to young daughters
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, let's just talk. Let's dive in and talk about this story about the Dragon Slayer. I want you to tell us how this story was born and the deeper personal and spiritual journey behind it.
Kyle Worley: Yeah, you know, it just came from reflecting on the armor of God and trying to find a way to just compellingly and persuasively and imaginatively retell the gospel story to my two little daughters. We're an adoptive family, and we've been a foster family for the last four years. And you never know how long you're going to have a foster kiddo. And every time, it was a sacred stewardship to try to tell that gospel story with whatever days and hours we had, in a way that hopefully would captivate the imagination of kiddos. And, you know, anyone that has spent time with kids knows two things. They are story sponges. Kids are just sponges for stories, and so it's important to give them good ones. and then the other thing about kiddos is that they do really well with concrete images. you know, it's really tough for kiddos to think in the abstract, and so they do really well with, imagery that's really on the ground. And thanks be to God that in his very own word, we have some incredible concrete imagery that is captivating for kiddos imaginations in the armor of God. And so, yeah, this was really just a journey of a dad trying to tell the gospel story in those. Those bedtime hours when you're tired and you want the kid to be tired, even if they're not, but you're trying to just capture those moments right before they go to bed and you get to go on to your next chore or maybe some time with your spouse. It's really just in those twilight hours of, attempting to tell the gospel story in a creative way.
Reading to your kids is key to establishing healthy spiritual routines in your home
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm so glad that you brought that up, Kyle, because every Friday we talk about a habit for healthy families and talk about ways to strengthen your relationship and make your family healthier. And we talked about spiritual disciplines. But then we moved into routines, and one of the core ones we talk about is bedtime routine. And as parents, I remember especially in those kind of, you know, trench days of parenting with that are physically demanding when you've got toddlers who are asking for the, you know, another glass of water and the room's too cold and the room's too hot and there's a monster under the bed and your day is gearing down and you feel like, I want to go to bed. But we really. This is such a great opportunity. And I had to learn, Kyle, to shift my mindset and to think, okay, my second shift is about to start. Because putting my kids to bed even now, like making the rounds and saying good night, it takes me at least an hour, sometimes longer. But when I just really kind of found a place in the dinnertime hours sometime in that mid evening, you know, to reset and to know, okay, that my most important work is coming up, that changed everything for me. And I would love for you to share because I can remember with my own kids some of my favorite times, or just snuggling up with them and reading stories and then questions that came from those stories and having those conversations where they were more willing because, hey, anything they could do to prolong bedtime, I use that to my advantage. What were those moments like with you? Take us into that space. What were the conversations like? And when did you realize, hey, this can be a story I can share with others?
Kyle Worley: Yeah, well, that's a really wonderful question. I agree with you. Those evening hours typically tend to be very tender. Just they're full of tenderness, you know, some of the guards and inhibitions and walls are down just because of the fatigue of the day and that those are hours that can be redeemed. And honestly, they're often hours that I feel like are really sacrificial to Redeem from tired parents, but really impressionable for, kiddos. And so, yeah, for us, you know, after we get, dinner and we get bath time, you, know, everybody's in their pajamas. And I think in those moments, reading books aloud and inviting conversation, not feeling the need to rush through the books, but lingering on a page and saying, what do you think about that? Asking questions and receiving questions. We really invite our daughters as we read books to interrupt us with questions. The goal isn't to grind through books. The goal is to create kind of the avenue for, spiritual conversation and virtue conversation, informative conversation. And I tell parents all the time in the life of our congregation, reading to your kids is such an invaluable exercise. And it is, I think, the most low hanging fruit when it comes to healthy spiritual routines in your home. it is a low cost, high yield endeavor. It doesn't always feel that way, but it is that way. and so, yeah, I, we wrote the Dragon Slayer, as really an attempt to give parents a softball, an imaginative softball to just like, what is the easiest possible way that we could create a place for parents to engage in retelling the gospel story in a creative way that kids would want to return to again and again and again. And how could they make connections between this imaginative world of dragons and, and a hero who comes and rescues us and the armor of God and. And that's what we intended to do with the book. And it's been really sweet to see that that's the response we've gotten from it.
You cannot overcrowd a child's imagination with good stories, Kyle says
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I would love to know, Kyle, about, you know, your childhood, how you came to know the Lord. Do you have memories of, books like this? Do you have those tender moments? Was your story different? How has that transition been for you? And now being a father of your own and telling these kinds of stories.
Kyle Worley: What a wonderful question. And this gives me an opportunity to honor my mother and father, which is what God's word calls me to do. My mom and dad were ordinary, faithful folk. They love the Lord, they love the church, they love their kids. And absolutely, they read to me every night, I think, up until I was probably in. In middle school. That may sound crazy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Love it.
Kyle Worley: But. But we had family readings just about every night. And so, yes, I remember reading spiritual biographies with my dad. He read these kids picture book versions of saints from the history of the church, like St. Patrick and St. Teresa and Martin Luther. And he'd read these to us and he'd pause and we'd ask questions and he'd given more context and more of the story. We read Pilgrim's Progress Kids adaptations of Pilgrim's Progress and Treasure island and the Three Musketeers. I grew up on the living books, and I grew up on kids picture books. And so, absolutely, it was a very formative part of mine and my brother's upbringing. And it's significant in our own spiritual routines in our home. Now, I think that you cannot overcrowd a child's imagination with good stories. and the world has plenty of false stories they're prepared to sell to your kids, and they have an entire machine apparatus behind them to do that very thing. But what they don't have is they don't have loving credibility with your kids. They don't. They can't get that you have that, your kids have a bond of loving credibility with you. And there's no better populator of their imagination than you. And there's no better way to do it than stories, just the routine of healthy stories. And not all of them are created equal, but there are so many good ones for you to use out there.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Kyle, I feel like I want you to say that again louder for the people in the back, because it is so true, and I see so much fear in today's culture of parenting. There's just an undercurrent of fear. We're afraid of all of the threats that are coming for our children. We're afraid that we won't be enough to be able to overcome those things. And A.I. you're right, is a very powerful apparatus with the world's best psychologists who are employed to see how do we influence your child's worldview and get them to come to us so that we can have more exposure. They're marketing our kids time and attention and interest because that's what is the commodity right now. That is a sellable commodity. And the thing, like you said, the thing that we cannot. The AI Cannot replace, is that personal, intentional relationship. AI is not going to get in its pajamas and sit in the bedroom and tuck you under its arm, you know, tuck it and say, here, and have your child lean their head on your chest and feel the comfort of your heartbeat. Feel the comfort of every breath that you take. Feel the. Look at the way that your hands look on the pages and memorize the way that your hands are the silly voices that you do. And, Kyle, I read to my kids until they graduated from high school. I remember my. One of my daughters going away to college, and we had been reading this series of books and we stayed up almost all night, like the night before she left, because we're like, like, we gotta finish this book together. But there's something just really fun and it can feel awkward, I think, for parents who maybe don't do that regularly, but just lean into it and just do it anyway. Because I think that the relational benefits and the conversations that are there are so great. And when we look at this book, I mean, the COVID of this book, if you're looking at the video here, it just yells out adventure. It really does, Kyle. I mean, it's got this dragon, this night. It's very colorful, it's dramatic. What is the, what is the. Tell us about this specific story.
Kyle Worley: Yeah, so we use the imagery of the dragon slayer to talk about the gospel story. If you follow along with the book, it'll make the gospel point very clear to you. And in the back of the book, there's a whole connection guide for moms and dads to use to make these creative connections with their kids. But the flow of the story is just using the dragon slayer as a stand in allegorically for Jesus Christ, who comes and defeats the great dragon, that is Satan, sin and death in his death and resurrection. And so it tells the gospel story. But then this dragon slayer, who has rescued this town from an evil dragon, gives to the inhabitants of that town, the citizens of that community, his super special suit which is tied to the armor of God. And I'm sure many of your listeners know this, but when you look at Ephesians 6, which is this classic passage on the armor of God, every piece of the armor of God is attached to some element of the finished work of Jesus Christ. And so we want to show kids that what it means to be a Christian means to receive Christ victory. Receive the dragon slayer's great victory over this dragon we could never defeat on our own. And because Christ, our great hero, has won the war, we are now equipped in his armor to fight the daily battles against the temptations of the flesh, against the false wickedness and stories of the world and the temptations of the world and against the spiritual forces at work in the heavenly places. We need to be able to tell two kids two things at the same time. One, Jesus Christ has won the great war. And two, you do have some real battles to fight and you are emboldened and equipped to fight those battles. And because of what Jesus has done, we both need to give them hope and prepare them for living as resurrection realists that go out into a world that doesn't Fully realize all that is coming with the second coming of Christ.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I just wrote that down. Kyle, that's so great because that's the message that we need to give. Not, oh, you're strong enough, you can do it. I believe in you. Those messages can be helpful, but not if they are given without the context. And you are made in the image of God. And he, like you said, has won this war, but has given you a battle to fight and a race to run. When we come back, we'll have much more about the Dragon Slayer and his super special suit with Kyle Worley. We'll talk theology and how do we talk to kids about that through story. We'll be right back after this break. Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by preborn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside. I mean, that sonogram that changed my life. I went from just Candice to mom. Thank you. To everybody that has given these gifts, you guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love. Preborn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine today? These life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most centers can afford. Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com/AFR okay, okay, okay.
Good Day by Forrest Frank: I'm, about to have a good day no matter what they say sun is shining down on me Birds are singing praise I'm about to have a good day in every single way God made the universe. Welcome back, friends. That is good Day by Forrest Frank. And listen, this is just a free PSA from me to you. That should be the wake up song for every alarm clock for every family in America. What a great message to wake up to that. We are about to have a good day. We're having a good day right here on the show.
Kyle Worley writes a children's book about a superhero called The Dragon Slayer
We are, we are talking to author, pastor, husband, father Kyle Worley and we're talking about his children's book the Dragon Slayer and his super special suit. Now, if you were listening in the first segment, Kyle, I heard some, children's voices in the background. And I want you to tell me, I want to tell you that that gives me so much joy in the world as a pediatric nurse, as a mom, I love the sound of a house alive with the laughter of children. So kudos to you for having all of that. And Kyle's given us powerful reminder that some of the most meaningful discipleship, it's not happening on a stage, in a church, in a curriculum, although those things can be important. We are talking about in the quiet, ordinary moments of faithfulness, reading stories to your kids, gospel stories, stories that reflect the timeless truth. And he is showing us, Kyle is showing us that those moments really can shape a child's understanding of God for a lifetime. And so, Kyle, let's talk about understanding some of those themes. I want you to tell us in a culture that is filled with superheroes, I mean, we see the absolute behemoth that is the superhero movie, movie, franchises and comic books. I mean, we have an affinity as a society for superheroes. We want to know a superhero, we want to be a superhero, we want to be a self made hero. Why is it so important to give this countercultural message that you give in this book and just from a theological perspective that the hero in our story is not us?
Kyle Worley: Yeah, you know what that is? One of the things that I think is most just interesting for parents to grapple with is there does seem to be at an instinctual level among kids and children's and children and adolescents a desire for stories about heroes. And I think that that is, that's, I think that's hardwired into our sensibility. You know, I'm reminded of J.R.R. tolkien, who was the author of Lord of the Rings and his evangelism towards CS Lewis, who was a colleague of his, who was really discovering and asking, why does he love these stories? for his time of the medieval period, kind of his expertise was in medieval literature and he was asking, why do you love these stories? And Tolkien's witness to Lewis was that maybe there's a true story underneath all of these other stories stories and all of these surface level stories are really just grasping and gasping to get to the truth and the goodness and beauty of a core story that's fundamental and foundational to them all. And I think that's one of the best access points in evangelism, generally among folks in the global west and kids specifically. I think the best way that we can come alongside that desire, that instinct, is to point them towards a true story where the hero who showcased is not attainable. I think we all know that there are battles that face us, that we cannot win, certainly the battle against sin, death and Satan. The scriptures are clear and life is clear. We cannot defeat those enemies on our own. We do not have the power or the resources. But there is a great hero. And while the story feels unbelievable, it's un. It's unbelievably true that there is a great hero who has come to seek and save the lost. And he has done that through his own great victory in the cross and resurrection. and I think it's important for us to be able to point out to kids this is an unbelievable story, but it's not unbelievable. And that it couldn't possibly be true. It's unbelievable and that it almost seems too good to be true. And yet it is. and I think it's good for kids to be told, you know what? God has made you in an incredibly wonderful way, and yet you can't do it all. You cannot fix the most fundamental problem you face, but God has fixed it for you in Jesus. I think both of those are true things, and they can be said at the same time.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You just said my two favorite words together in the history of ever. And that would be. But God. Because that is the message that we need.
The stories that Tolkien and Lewis told resonate with gospel messages
And by the way, Kyle, I'll tell you, I have had the privilege of traveling to the UK and being at the place where Tolkien and Lewis had those conversations, and it really did give me goosebumps. I'm just gonna nerd out for a minute here, but thinking about the stories that Tolkien and Lewis told, the Chronicles of Narnia the Lord of the Rings, and how those stories just resonate with gospel messages and the analogies that are there and how they have, you know, inspired generations to really understand the gospel truths, in a way that we understand. And. And this is something that Jesus did. He talked in parables that were. That were in the cultural context so that people could understand what he was saying. And I love that, because when we look at the. The message that you're giving that you are not the hero of your story, that there is a hero. And most you think about the heroes that were involved in. In the. The Narnia, the Chronicles of Narnia, or Lord of the Rings, those themes were sacrifice. There is usually sacrifice that is there. And that's not often, you know, the messages that you see in cultural context. But I think this is a message that is going to help kids feel less anxious, because if they feel the burden to be the hero in their own story, that they have to rely on themselves to be strong enough, brave enough, you know, to be. To go far enough, whatever it is. That's a lot of Pressure to take on yourself. But knowing that we serve a God who has conquered all has made us more than conquerors. You talked about that before. You talked about Jesus won, but you are equipped and emboldened. I wrote that down when you said that.
Kyle: Introducing theology to young children is subversive discipleship
Let's talk a little bit about theology, because that's really what we're talking about here. We're talking about giving theology very, very tough concepts that adults are wrestling with, but starting to introduce those in a way that kids can understand. Why is that so important to do it early and how do we do it?
Kyle Worley: Well, well, yeah, and I love that you're asking that question. I think stories are one of the most persuasive and simple ways of introducing these big ideas to young hearts and minds. You know, C.S. lewis, was commentating on the Chronicles of Narnia after they had all been published, and he said, you know, his goal was that maybe he could win the imagination of the kiddos of England. The idea was subversive evangelism. And I like to talk about that when it comes to training up your children as subversive discipleship. Getting in by way of imagination and stories help us do that. You know, you consider the armor of God before it even begins. To outline the armor of God, the first thing that Paul says is finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. And this idea is connected to a doctrine that Paul develops across Ephesians and throughout all of his letters called the Doctrine of Union with Christ. I wrote a book about this that's meant for adults called Home with God. And it really just explains and explores the doctrine of union with Christ. And in many ways, this book, the Dragon Slayer and His Super Special Suit, is a kind of a subversive discipleship way of introducing this really big doctrine about what it means to be in Christ Jesus to young hearts and minds, to our kiddos. And it's so crucial that we do this in age appropriate ways, because there is a compounding interest to theological development. There is. You know, we talk about compounding interest when it comes to money or our time, but the reality is, is that when you begin to sow deep doctrine in developmentally appropriate ways into the hearts and minds of your kids, there is a compounding interest that the Spirit just kind of works in the lives of your children and your kids, and we can't control that. God is sovereign over that by the power of his Spirit in accordance with his grace, but it's a part of the sacred stewardship of moms and dads. To undertake the development of the doctrine, and their kids. And so stories are just as simple there. I think they're the most simple, most compelling way to do that. And we hope that we've done that here.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I still, Kyle, I'm still hearing your beautiful children in the background, and it makes me smile because I think they are always present. And this is like a real moment in life where we're trying to talk about, you know, these things that are really, really important. And we're doing that in the shadow of everyday life. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of parents who be. Who are really intimidated by even the word theology. And I think that, you know, I'm not a trained theologian. I didn't go to seminary. And somehow in, you know, we tend to outsource those bits and think like, okay, well, I don't know that they'll learn that at church. They'll learn that at Sunday school. Like, I'm just going to focus on the things I understand. Talk to parents, Kyle, about getting engaged and comfortable in that space. And maybe if you think, okay, I don't know a lot about theology you talked about. You've written a book for children and you've written a book for adults. Walk us along that spectrum and talk about why it's so important right now in a world of competing messages, to engage in good theology with your kids.
Kyle Worley: Well, I think that it's important to realize that everyone, whether they're man, ah, woman, child, boy or girl, everyone's a theologian. And there is a theological discipleship plan that the world has for you and your kids. There is. Everyone is a theologian, and everyone is reaching theological conclusions and telling theological stories. And that's true. It's true in every outlet. There are views about who God is and who you are and your place in the world that are coming at you from every possible direction. And so it is really incumbent upon parents, and this doesn't have to be overly torqued up or overly complicated, but it is a sacred responsibility that's entrusted to parents and to the churches that come alongside those parents, to be engaged in communicating what's true and what's good and what's beautiful about who God is, his world, and who these children are to kiddos. I think there can be a temptation to think about outsourcing this, outsourcing this to churches, or outsourcing this to YouTube channels, or outsourcing this to ministries. But I just, I want to encourage parents there is maximum, credibility that you have with Your kids and the opportunity cost of letting that go without making some contribution is so incredibly high. And so. So we live in a time where there is a wealth of godly resources at your fingertips, and they're not all for purchase. So many of them are free. And finding out ways that you can put those tools into good and proper use in cultivating just basic theological and biblical literacy among children is a really valuable use of your time. I just. I think that if your goal is ordinary Christian faithfulness to the kids in your life, whether you're in kids ministry or your mom and dad at home, or both, is to take these resources wherever you can find them and just think about what does ordinary faithful application look like day in and day out. You'll make mistakes and grace abounds. But I think the greatest mistake you can make in this endeavor is to not attempt it at all.
Dr. Jessica Peck: M. That is really convicting. And, you know, I think there. What I hear from a lot of parents and the, honest, you know, impulse I have myself is this. This, this notion of gatekeeper parenting, that our job is to protect our kids from the evil influences of the world. We don't want them to be exposed to things that they really are not developmentally ready for. But the truth is, if we really take that further, we wish that they never had to be exposed to evil in the world. We wish that they never saw violence, that their hearts were never broken. But we do live in a broken world. And that's why, you know, I gravitate towards the image of a lighthouse house parenting. Something that is steady, something that is shining light in the darkness, something that is helping kids to navigate the stormy seas of culture that they are experiencing. And you do that through some theological concepts when we don't introduce our kids to any hardship, when we try to have helicopter parenting where we're hovering at every moment, or lawnmower parenting, where we're making sure that they don't everything's beautiful for them and curated. Or. Or bulldozer parenting, where we knock down any obstacle. We're taking away some of those. Those concepts that you introduce here. I mean, I'm holding up your book here, Kyle, and it's the Dragon Slayer. This has got a, dragon on it with a knight and a sword. Who's fighting it. How do we. We may not want, of course our kids to be exposed. We should try to protect them in every way that we can. But how do we flip the narrative and think, okay, we're going to introduce early exposure of Themes of victory, of overcoming, of being more than conquerors in Christ, of, slaying dragons, whatever they, whatever they may be. And maybe we don't know all of the specific evil that that dragon is going to bring, but I think there's something really empowering about introducing this concept early about how God has equipped and emboldened them, even as children, to, stand firm in their faith. Faith.
Kyle Worley: Yeah. You know what? I think one of the, one of the things that I've been so encouraged by from readers response to this book so far is that it also is a basic introduction to good and evil. I mean, we, we are living in a time in which the very idea that there is absolute good and absolute evil has largely been erased, abdicated, or absolutely obliterated in the dominant cultural narratives. And we can spend a lot of time lamenting and complaining about that reality. And there's a lot to lament and complain about. But the fact of the matter is, is that Christians know they have a firm foundation to communicate. There is good, there is evil, and there's a victor who rises above it all, who's not just good, but he's perfect, who doesn't just look at evil and empathize with us, in light of its disruption in our life, but actually defeats it and overthrows it. So I think if nothing else, introducing the basic concept concepts of there is good, there is evil, and there is a victor who rises above it all. If that's all that this book accomplishes in Hearts and minds, I think it does more. But if that's all that it does, I can think of nothing that is more countercultural than just that alone.
Parents need to instruct their children in the fear of the Lord
and so I think for parents, oftentimes, I think parents have been told there's 1 million things they have to do for the good of their kids. And I think that it is often much more simple than we make it out to be, which is instructing your children in the fear of the Lord begins with telling them the world is not as it should be. God is still good, and he's accomplished a victory that he gives to you freely. In Jesus, you tell your kids those four things right there, and you tell it to them in creative and, repetitive ways. I think you're going to see a harvest of righteousness. I really do.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I agree. Amen, Amen and amen. And it is really hard. And I think, think one of the things that we have to acknowledge as parents and grandparents is that our kids are being actively discipled by culture. They really are. And there was a time when we had more control over that. We had control over the people who came in and out of their lives. But now with a culture that is saturated by screens, unless they are living in a bunker out under a rock somewhere, and even then, you know, the heart is wicked, we. We have to be. Be countercultural in that way. But our kids are being discipled by media and by culture and by the stories they are consuming every day. We are not the only ones as believers who know the power of story. And the question is not if they're being shaped, but how they're being shaped and by whom they're being shaped. And stories like this give parents such a powerful way, an opportunity to anchor their children in truth instead of. Of confusion and fear. And when we come back, I want to dive into that a little more and talk about kids feeling fear. And really some practical steps to live out discipleship in action.
What are practical ways that we can use story to disciple our children
What are practical ways that we can use the power of story to disciple our children and to shape their worldview and to give them the message that they are more than conquerors through Christ? We'll be right back with Kyle Worley. The AFR app is a powerful tool, but it does have limitations. You can't use it to change the oil in your vehicle or get rid of carpet stains. It won't walk the dog, won't pick up the dry cleaning or take the kids to practice. But while you're doing those things, you can listen to your favorite AFR content through the app on your phone, smart device device or Roku. Just go to your app store or visit afr.net Listen to AFR wherever you go with the AFR app.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Hallelujah. M. Welcome back, friends. That is Gratitude by Brandon Lake and I'll share with you. I was just, recently at State College in Pennsylvania and Brandon Lake was doing a concert there. I did not go to the con, the, the concert, but I went to a restaurant. And everywhere I looked, there were all of these people everywhere wearing shirts that said, we are Jesus people. And it made me smile so big because I thought, yes, yes, you are my people. Jesus people. I'm talking to a Jesus people today. Kyle Worley. He is a pastor, a podcast host, an author, a father, a husband. He is author of the Dragon Slayer and his Super Special Suit. This is a really precious kids book that gives kids an introduction to the concepts of good and evil. And we need to give kids a hero in that story and reassure them that they are not the hero in their story, although they are beautifully created in the image of God. And they are equipped for every good work and that he who began a good work will be faithful to complete it. There is so much messaging and imagery in the Bible about being victorious, about being victorious in Christ. And that is what our kids need to hold on to, that they don't need to ride the waves of culture by themselves, but giving them good theology. And that starts with an introduction like a, children's book. And Kyle, I know you're seeing this as a dad and a pastor, this undercurrent of fear that is there. And I see kids who are internalizing this fear. We see epidemics of anxiety, anxiety, depression, self harming, loneliness. And kids are very confused, as you said, about what is good and evil. And I believe there's always a pendulum in everything. And when we talk about fear, we think back to, you know, maybe the church of yesteryear that may have been more heavy on the fire and brimstone and you know, that we're kind of those fear based tactics. And then I feel like we went too far the other way. And it's like, oh, let's just be more gentle and not talk about that and the realities of sin and death and hell. I mean, those are realities. As a pastor, as a father, how do you advise parents to have a good balance in that, giving them a healthy fear of the Lord? We know from Proverbs the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge or wisdom. How do we have, how do we walk that line with talking about, you know, teaching them a healthy respect for their faith, a fear of a God who is big, but also not an overwhelming fear of, you know, having that fear of performance based faith. Faith.
Kyle Worley: Well, you know what, I love that question. You know, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And the fear of the Lord is also what drives out lesser fears. part of the reason why I think this world often is filled with frights and fears that alarm us is because we have a really big view of the problems of this world or the problems of our life and a really small view of God and so helping expand for both us and for our kiddos. And to create a big view of God is a part of the reason why Scripture calls us to fear the Lord. To remember that God is sovereign, he's in charge of everything, that God is great, he is glorious, God is holy and perfect. And yet this God who is transcendent and high and holy draws near to us. He is Emmanuel, God with us. He Catches all of our tears in a bottle and keeps count of all of our tossings is what is what His Word says. That we don't have a high priest who has unable to sympathize with us in our weakness, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are yet without sin is what the writer of Hebrews says about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And so, yes, God is high and holy, and yet he is near and close. He is creator and Lord, and he's also father and friend. This is the beautiful tension that God's Word puts us in so that we might be reminded in moments of fear that God is. Is in charge of everything. And there is no, There is no problem or danger or threat that he cannot defeat and that he has not defeated already. And at the same time that God is with us in the midst of what feels scary to us. You know, I think that it can be tempting to push our kids to kind of performative fearlessness, performative bravery, but true bravery. True courage is not rooted in. And our belief that we are capable of doing anything, but in the belief that God has already done the main thing. Once you come to believe that truly it is finished, as Christ declares on the cross, you are now free. Free to entrust your life to the God who is greater than anything else. You know, I think about Martin Luther's hymn, A Mighty Fortress is Our God. It's a song that when we sing it now, I don't fault people for feeling like the language is pretty antiquated, but there is a strength and a substance to Luther's confession in that song. That though the world with devils filled may threaten to undo us, we will not fear. For God has willed his power to triumph through us. The reason that is still so compelling hundreds of years later is because we know that we're sent out into the world, a world that is both beautiful and broken, that is being made new, but not quite finished yet. And we know we have battles to face. And I think the only sure and steady foundation under our feet is the proclamation that Christ's victory is made ours by God's grace in Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you are never going to go wrong with me if you talk about hymns, because I have a very special place in my heart for hymns, Kyle. And even as you're quoting the lyrics of that song, yes, I'm thinking A mighty fortress is our God, A bulwark never failing. And people think, what is a bulwark? I don't know, but it sounds like something really Big and strong. And there is something really, really special about singing those lyrics that, Luther wrote so long ago and knowing that you are standing in a long line of generation after generations proclaiming the same truth. There's something really powerful about that. And I think when we don't regularly proclaim those truths in our home, when we don't talk about these things as we lie down, as we walk along the road, parents also internalize those fears of culture, those fears their kids have. We're internalizing them because we're not speaking those things out loud. We're not speaking out when we have fear. Hey, I know you're scared. I'm with you. I love you. But also God has not given you a spirit of fear, but a power and love and a sound mind. And I am, confident that he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it and speaking scripture over them.
Bringing your kids to church is crucial in today's world
And one of the most powerful things I think that we can do is to bring our kids to church, to walk alongside real humans in real situations. Our kids know what other families in our communities are going through. They know about Mrs. So and so, the elderly lady and her husband who lost her husband. And they see her still walking through the door and proclaiming those truths and, and facing her life even when there is great fear. They see their Sunday school teacher re or sorry, Sunday school now I'm dating myself. Throw that in there with Bulwark. Okay? Your life group, your connect group, whatever it is. They see them picking up books like the Dragon Slayer and reading those and speaking timeless truths. And Kyle, I really feel like in today's day and age there is a great competition for families to not be engaged in church. There's so many things pulling for their time and attention. As a pastor, as a dad, speak to us about how important it is to show up at church and to engage with real life. When the world has voices in our kids lives or are competing, there's nothing like the power of those real relationships walking in real life with people who are speaking real truths over your family.
Kyle Worley: That's right. I mean, even consider what Paul says in the passage in the Armor of God, he's appealing to the church in Ephesus to pray for him. That's how he concludes, pray for me. This community of faith, you know, we, we are saved into the body of Christ Jesus. And while we are given a new identity, it's not an isolated one. We are brought into a new family of God in Christ with brothers and sisters in Christ and spiritual mothers and fathers. And this incorporation, this participation into the life of the church is absolutely crucial for stalwart faith in a tumultuous age. You think about the writer of Hebrews says, to not neglect to get me together, as is the habit of sun, but all the more as you see the day drawing near. Why? Why? So that we might stir up one another to love and good works. We need one another in order to exhort and encourage and stir up one another to the holy call that God has entrusted to us personally in our households and then in local churches. And so listen, if you're on the fence about active participation in a local church, I'll tell you there's no replacement for it. I know that radio shows and resources and podcasts and books are great, great supplements to your ongoing spiritual activity, but there is not an adequate replacement for just ordinary participation in faithful, ordinary gospel preaching local churches. So if nothing else, I hope that you'll go and take action on that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think our kids need to hear a message that this world is not our home. This is not all there is. Yes, there is a broken world, but we are living for something better, something bigger than that. That's the hope that we need because that's a of hope that I see that's really shallow in this world. And I've talked about this quite often, the the cultural juggernaut that is the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt and how parents just resonated with that and they rallied to the call to restore to their children a play based childhood, which I am all for. I think kids need to be outside until the street lights come on. They need to play in the sprinkler, they need to do all the things, they need to be outside the. They need to be active, they need to play, they need to have real connections. But I also want my kids to be joint heirs with Christ. That is my ultimate goal. That's my ultimate responsibility. You talked earlier about stewarding that journey of discipleship that we have with our kids. How do we. In a world that seems so hopeless, that is just really characterized by the constant doom scroll and the constant rumble of bad news and violence and, and destruction and sin and just grief in the background. How do we raise our kids eyes to a greater hope?
Kyle Worley: Yeah. Wow. yeah. I feel like many parents feel now like they're. They've never been more aware of just how disrupted and broken the world around them is. And it's good that we're honest about broken things and it's good that we call Evil, Evil. Those are healthy practices to speak the truth, even when it's hard to say. And at the same time, we are not cynics or pessimists. Christians are resurrection realists. We're able to look at the darkness and death in our world and name it for what it is, but also to realize that it is temporary. Even though it doesn't feel temporary, it feels like it has the last word. It doesn't. Scripture is clear in the empty tomb and in the second coming of Christ that there is a resurrection, resurrection hope that leads to the restoration of all things. And so I think it's vital that we come back again and again to the simple gospel message. Like Paul will say in First Corinthians, I delivered to you a first importance, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And if the resurrection isn't true, honestly, it is only darkness and death. But thanks be to God that it is true. We're, recording this on the cusp of Easter right now. And the dream truth is that when we gather together to say, he is risen, he is risen indeed. On Easter Sunday, we have only arrived at that third day because of the Good Friday that precedes it. We live in this tension between the cross and the empty tomb as we wait for the second coming of Christ. All will be made well and all broken things mended. And telling those stories in every way that we can and singing them whenever we can and celebrating them, is a good and right thing to do for hungry hearts.
Dr. Jessica Peck: What? That is such a powerful message. I mean, really, I can't think of a more powerful message. There is no more powerful message to give kids today.
How do we nourish our own faith so that we can strengthen the faith of our children?
And so often, I think as parents, as humans, we are just so tempted to be the hero in our kids story, to dig deep and to feel like, okay, this is all of a sudden, you know, when they ask us a theological question, we feel like, oh, it's a pop quiz. Am I going to handle this right? Am I going to give them the most godly answer? Am I going to say the Bible words right? Am I going to, you know, perform well so that my kids won't walk away from their faith? And we think of it in kind of this transactional way just because as humans, that's how we're designed to think. How do we nourish our own souls and strengthen our own faith so that we can then strengthen the faith of our children? Because. Because children know and seek authenticity. That's what they want. They want to see. I'm not. I don't want just the Sunday school answer. I don't want just the Jesus answer, the Bible answer. They are looking to see do we really believe this? Do are we walking this out in our lives when things happen, when tragedy strikes, when, when trials come, are we living, breathing an authentic faith? How do we put our focus on that with and just tamp down that worry of, you know, looking at that transactional like I've got to be a good enough Christian so you'll be one too.
Kyle Worley: You know what? I don't know that there's a one size fits all answer, but something really simple that we tell parents in the life of our church is what you will soak up, is what you will share out. Whatever you're soaking up is. It's what's going to come out of the abundance of the heart. The mouth speaks. and I think it's really hard, it's really hard, exhausting to try to perform sincerity. Like before you can begin to lead disciple your kids, you have to ask am I following the rabbi? Am I following Jesus? It is really exhausting to try to lead your kids in something you don't love. I mean it is. And so I would just encourage tired and weary parents that it is a good and right thing to make make space in your time to attend to the presence of the Lord. And I know that you might have to squeeze those in in the early morning hours, the late evening hours. You might have to still 10 minutes in the bathroom alone with God's word while your kids run crazy through the house and read the psalms and pray and say, lord, I need to be in your presence even if it means I have to cower in this bathroom for a few moments to get any alone time. I'm telling you, you who is, there but for the grace of God go we, right? I mean it's just like take it anywhere you take it where you can get it so that you can soak up the presence of the Lord so that you can share it with the kiddos. Yeah, I think that that's a valuable thing.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I agree. And. Or in the cozy hours of bedtime, the book is the Dragon Slayer and his super special suit. And listen, if there's one thing to take away from today's conversation, your child is living in a story. A story where evil is real, but it is defeated. Where courage is not self made, it is given to us by God. And the hero is not us, it is Jesus. And because of him we don't have to live in fear. Listen, may the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And I'll see you right back here next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued a over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
