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Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And listen, today you are not going to want to go anywhere. This is a guest and a topic I have been long looking forward to. Something that is really, really captured my heart, my mind, my attention and my prayers for this generation. You know that I'm a mom of four. I have kids who are growing up in Gen Z. I'm taking care of kids in Gen Z all the time. And we talk about culture all the time in our communities and our churches and certainly here on this show. And the truth is our culture is really at an inflection point. This is a moment where the trajectory of the next generation is going to be shaped for decades to come. It is a moment that is ripe for our opportunity like none I've ever seen in my lifetime. We are talking about things that are scary in this culture, like a pandemic of anxiety and loneliness and depression and isolation among young people. This is skyrocketing in a generation that is more digitally connected than ever, but more relationally disconnected than ever. And this generation is trying to navigate the noise of many, many voices. They have cultural voices, academic voices, even faith based voices, family voices, influencer voices. The these have rushed to provide commentary on why is this happening and what is the cure Books like. The anxious generation have given parents one unifying villain to rally against and that is the smartphone. I see the attractiveness of that. I see the pull of that because it puts the control in our hands. Oh, it's the smart. We know how to deal with that. And while, yes, our relationship to technology needs some serious attention, I believe the conversation cannot stop there. You can take away the phone, but then what if we don't replace that phone with truth, with connection, with belonging, with biblical worldview, with identity based in Christ, we risk trading one Void for another, the phone, in my opinion is just a symptom. And while the stated goal of the New York Times bestseller Anxious Generation is to reclaim a play based childhood, which I don't disagree with, my goal, my vision, I think God's vision for children is to become joint heirs with Christ. And the deeper issue is a declining spiritual foundation. I've talked about this, I've written about this, and today we have a renowned expert. We're digging into research, reality, and most of all, redemption, and exploring why the church might be the most overlooked answer for the anxious soul.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer is founder and CEO of Church Answers
My guest today is none other than the esteemed Dr. Thom S. Rainer He is founder and CEO of Church Answers. He's a former pastor, a seasoned researcher and best selling author with 42 books and prints. He holds a Master's in Divinity, PhD degrees from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And he brings nearly four decades of ministry experience dedicated to strengthening the health and future of the local church. And his newest book, which I have right here, the Anxious Generation Goes to Church. What the research says about what younger generations need and want from your church, it is offering to you today both a wake up call and a hopeful roadmap for a better future. Thom, as I said, I have been really looking forward to this, this conversation. Thank you so much for the work that you're doing and thank you for joining us today to share your hope and your vision for that work.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Thanks, Jessica. you said a word that I think is really, really prescient about what is taking place. Well, prescient would mean looking forward, but also looking backwards and then looking forward as well. And that is the word inflection point. it's an inflection point that we can look on and say, oh, look at all the challenges. But it's an inflection point where we can say, look how God can make a difference in this generation. One of the great excitements I have about studying the anxious generation, primarily Z, maybe a little bit of Gen Alpha in there. One of the primary reasons that I have all of this excitement is we are seeing God at work in the midst of this. And you're right, Jonathan Haidt, when he wrote the Anxious Generation, I got to tell you, I read that book. Well, I read about that book. I, ordered it on Amazon and it came that same afternoon. So I said I'm going to thumb through it. Well, I thumb through it. By about 4 in the morning I was still reading it. And here we have an agnostic jewel, Jonathan Haidt, who is telling us look at what's happening to your kids. Look what's happening to our kids. Look what is happening to the entire generation and maybe beyond. And I read that book and I said, goodness, God, what, what, what, what's going on here? Parallel to that, we at Church Answers were doing research on Gen Z, and we're not the only ones who are doing research on Gen Z, but we're finding that there's a greater receptivity to the gospel, a greater receptivity to the church as a local organization organism. And so you say inflection point. I say, yes, you are absolutely right. This is an opportunity. And for all of your listeners, Jessica, I would say think about this for your children and your grandchildren, because by the, by the time this interview is over, I hope that we have instilled not only the reality, but the hope as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Thom, you and I had the same reaction. And reading the Anxious Generation, it really captivated my heart. And I thought it's like. And because without the biblical worldview, without the hope of eternity with Christ, it kind of just leaves you on a cliffhanger. And where does the church come into that? And Thom, I don't take it lightly that you point out that this is an inflection point because you have been doing this, and I am making no comment about, your wealth of experience for decades here in the church, reminding me of, of Ronald Reagan and that famous presidential debate. But you've been doing this for a long time, Thom, and for you to say that, that this is the moment that is not lost on me. And when we look at this moment of cultural inflection, what I see a lot is older generations, mine included, and is saying to this young, these younger generations, this is a terrible time to be alive. I'm so glad I'm not growing up. When you're growing up, like the world is going to you know where and a. You know what? Like, this is awful. It's really depressing messages. And we know from your research, and others that shows that more than two thirds of Gen Z feel unknown or unseen. And if they are seen, it's just these negative messages. What is driving this and what can we do about it?
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Ultimately, the bottom line is spiritual warfare. The enemy wants nothing more. For us as believers to say that, oh, this is a hopeless time and it is a helpless time, especially for the younger people. And it is not. So what is going on? Okay, we're in a battle. We're in a battle for the mind. We're in a battle for the heart. But it is not a battle that is without a great deal of hope, without a great deal of possibility. And in the midst of all of this, God seems to be working in the hearts of an entire generation and parents and grandparents and I would be included in that generation. And just, I gotta say, I really appreciate you not saying that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm old, I'm feeling that myself.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: I love. You're referring to the Ronald Reagan, Mondale, debate.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: And he talked about the relative youthfulness of his opponent there. Well, I totally identify with that moment too. But what this has done for me is in the midst of all of these, what is happening? I can look back on those four decades and I can say I have never been more excited about being alive. And it's related to what is happening in the generations that are among us, particularly Gen Z and Gen Alpha. So you know what is happening? The world is battling for the hearts. The world is battling for the mind. What is happening? One of the key instruments that has been used in Jonathan Haidt focuses on this so well is a smartphone, especially during the critical time of adolescence, development. And what is happening is, okay, we now see the clear battle lines. We now clear. See, we clearly see the issues that are in front of us, but it's not like we just see the problems. We see the possibilities through Christ. And I hope we can get into this before this is over. It is the gospel. It is the essence of the gospel, which is going to, which is the victor. But I hope we will also get into the fact that it is the local church as God's instrument for the gospel. Not just the local church, but primarily the local church. And before this is all said and done, I would hope that we can just remind ourselves that from Acts 2 to Revelation 3, that entire swath of the NewSong Testament was written about the local church to the local church, to a leader in a local church or in a context of the local church. God gave us the local church for his plan A, for his mission on earth after Christ left and he didn't leave us a plan B. And we can look at the local church, Jessica, and we can say, oh, look at the problems, look at the fights, look at the negativity. yeah, that's in the NewSong Testament. It's called First Corinthians. And it's. Well, it's called all the books of the NewSong, even Philippians, because Yodi and Zentoche were fighting in that book. It's, it's. Well, we have the local church as God's instrument to be conveyors of the gospel. And yes, we're seeing the transformation that is happening when these younger people are being introduced to the gospel. But we're seeing the transformation also happen when they come in the context of a local church among other believers.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I feel like you need to say that louder for the people in the back. That's two hopeful messages that you've never felt more hopeful and that the local church is such a key part of that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Memory habit number three is going to church
And, you know, here on our show, we do 52 Habits for Healthy families, and we start in January. We start with prayer. We start with scripture. Memory habit number three is going to church. And one thing that has surprised me about this generation, Thom, is their interest, their curiosity. They want to go back to church, and they want to see something sacred. They want it to feel different than other secular venues that they go to. They don't want it to feel like every other rock concert that they go to. They. They are interested in those elements that differentiate the church, taking of the Lord's Supper and other elements that are sacred in the local church. And I'm sure as you read Jonathan Heights book the Anxious Generation, and then you started to have your vision for your book, the Anxious Generation, you probably had some ideas of where you were going to go. I want to know what surprised you. What did God teach you? What moments did you have that your vision maybe was derailed?
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Derail would probably be an overstatement because my. My vision was consistent, and my vision was that this generation can be reached. But. But I was surprised how vividly clear it was to someone who is not a believer. For Jonathan Haidt to be saying, essentially, he didn't make it. He didn't give it this point of clarity. Hey, hey, you know these kids, and really everybody needs the church now. He didn't say that that was my, extension of it, but he said they need something else. And certainly he talked about play, which is. Which is great. He talked about things that we can do to help this generation. And he didn't to the church, but he did provide us that ellipses. That was a surprise to me. And that was the big surprise, that the first time that I feel like we've had this entree into culture has been from someone who is not a believer, but is leading toward that as well. So that's my surprise more than any one thing in that book.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think a lot of people who read his book were surprised to learn that he is agnostic, that he is, that has not Made a profession of Christian faith. And when we look at his, you know, his, his premise is basically that the phone is the causation of the, of the anxious generation. And his premise is that it is this because no one else has made a compelling case for anything else. And I agree with him. I think the phone has brought a world of trouble into, into our world. But kind of that that train has left the station. You know, there are things that, that technology is not going backwards and we've got to figure out a way to deal with it. But what you come in and bring that case to him is saying, okay, yeah, the, is part of it, but it's really the biblical worldview. It is the spiritual formation. And we're just now going to our first break. We have so much more to talk about, but give us just a little one minute overview about how we address the spiritual void that technology is currently working to fill.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Well, when we think about what happened with the phone, Jessica, what is happening with the phone is basically what is, what is developing our young people, what is happening in adolescence, what is happening at those critical points. And the phone is definitely the big cultural factor. But what is also happening, there's a lot of openness now to other things to shape the mind that we would not have expected from Gen Z or Gen Alpha. So that is what is taking place right now. And that's the ellipses that that Haidt offered us through the anxious generation and now through my book, the Anxious Generation.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Goes to Church and we are going to take full advantage of that. So much more to talk about, Thom. We'll be talking about Gen Z growing up slow and we'll really dive into the big four threats that you identify as shaping the anxious generation and how we can leverage the church as a solution as a bridge for hope for this generation to speak words of life and to really identify that, the anxiousness that they have to come to church to find that spiritual meaning. The book is called the Anxious Generation Goes to Church. It's by Thom Rainer what the research says about what younger generations need and want from your church. Don't go away. So much more on the other side of this break. We'll be right back.
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Honestly, We Just Need Jesus by Terrian: when I take a step back I can see it all the pain, all the fear we've been feeling losing sight of the thing that we're needing that we're needing. Honestly, I think we just need Jesus. honestly I think we just need Jesus. Have we all gone mad? Have we lost our minds? What used to be wrong? We say that is right. Honestly, I think we just need Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is honestly, we just need Jesus by Terrian and I don't know about you, but I feel that sentiment so often when we look at the things that are facing younger generations today, we just can be overwhelmed by the cultural darkness, by the talk about smartphone addiction, by the anxiousness, the loneliness, the pandemic of mental health crisis that comes with that. But list just as God has done since the beginning of the church, he raises up leaders to give us hope, to give us wisdom. And today if you're just tuning in, I'm talking to just such one of those leaders, Dr. Thom Rainer who is offering some research based insights on what today's anxious generation needs. We're talking about his book the Anxious Generation Goes to Church and we're talking to you about how you as the church can step into the gap. And he has named the unique challenges and dreams that he sees in young generations and lays out a path for hope and for spiritual resilience. We talk a lot about resilience and kids needing resilience but we don't often talk about spiritual resilience. And for me as a nurse practitioner, I believe that God created us body, mind and soul and we have to talk about not only physical health or mental health, but also spiritual health.
Gen Z was introduced to four major areas of cultural shift that no other generation had
And Tom you talk in this gen about this generation growing up slow. What do you mean by that? What do we need to learn about that and our efforts to connect, connect with Gen Z and the generations being born behind them.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Well, this is a generation that is so different than previous generations. And we say that every time, Jessica. We, we. I remember my generation. Let's, let's, let's. Let's go back to antiquity. And, you know, somewhere between transition from, BC to ad, my generation was born. The, the baby boomer. And the baby boomer generation born 1946 to 1964. Well, that was the generation that was so different. And of course, we have a subtle arrogance, maybe not such a subtle arrogance, about our generation through the years, but then it continued to come on, and then there was Gen X, and then there were the millennials. And all of these generations were, oh, they're the inflection point. They're where the change is going to take place. But they were speeding through life. They were going through life at a pace. And then along comes Gen Z. And Gen Z was introduced to four major areas of cultural shift that no other generation had. And yes, the other generations maybe had some of it. I remember, you know, everybody has a memory of when they got their first email address. Mine was aol. And that, again, shows, shows my age. But the Internet was going to be okay. The transformation of culture. Totally. And it was. In many ways, it totally was. But this generation comes along and they're not only introduced to the Internet, but their developmental slowness is accentuated by the Internet that now has another layer on that, and that layer is a smartphone. So. So now you can connect to the Internet in your pocket. But then the true, really change that took place was the Internet with the smartphone, with social media.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: And social media comes along, and, all of a sudden an entire cultural reality opens up to these young people. I am not able, Jessica, to fully grasp what has taken place in the minds of our young people through those three layers. And there's a fourth, but I'll add that in just a moment. But when I think about the Internet layered by a smartphone, which, again, I don't know why I'm talking about my antiquity in this. I think you started it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I did. That's okay. My kids talk about me being born in literally the previous century, but it's interesting to see that's their perspective that I was born in, in the 1900s. And that seems wild to them.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Yes, it is. Well, you tell, tell them to Google or AI, this, that. I studied my computer programming on an IBM360 and it covered, and it, it covered the end. The computer was the entire room. But that's, that's another story to itself. So now they have something that is multiple. The power of, IBM360 that covered probably 400, 600 square feet. And there's this smartphone. But then the smartphone brings us into the world of social media. And when I say world, it is, it is not just a glance of a statement. It is a whole new reality. And that's why I said, I can't imagine what they are thinking are going through. I cannot. My developmental years did not have that. So even though I can look at social media and even though I have my own smartphone, connected to the Internet, I can't imagine that. But then there's a fourth factor that has layered on top of all of this and it's polarization. And you, you don't, you don't have to argue that polarization is really real today. And you don't have to, you don't have to make a statement that, okay, this is part of culture today. Well, the polarization in many ways started with social media. And it has grown and grown to a degree now. Where it is, it is, it is such a major cult issue, it is hard to overstate how that is affecting our young people. That, that's our children, those are her grandchildren. That's the world that they're being brought up in. And if we ended it there, it would be a very terrible world being. They are growing slowly. They are growing at a pace that is, that is stunted because of so many of these factors. And it's hard for me to comprehend. I can research it, but I cannot understand what they're going through.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're absolutely right. We don't have that lived experience. And when we look at previous generations, we look at the inflection point that where were you when. Question. For each previous generation? For the greatest generation, where were you on VE Day? For your generation, where were you when JFK was assassinated? For my generation, Gen X, where were you when the Challenger exploded? And then Millennials, where Were you on 9 11? And one of the things about those moments, Thomas, for the most part, those were unifying at the events. They brought the world together. I remember after 9 11, you know, we, we went to church. We didn't have a smartphone. We didn't know what was going on. We just said, let's go to church and show up and see if anybody's there. And the parking lot was full and we just went in and prayed together. Covid is this generation's defining question. They ask each other, where were you during quarantine? Where were you in the world shut down? And that was a uniquely polarizing event that split the world apart. And I think that's part of what's contributing to this inflection point. And the other thing is we have this generational gap, because I have my gener generation Gen X millennials who were not raised in those four factors, those four layers that you just described. And we are trying to understand the world and we don't have that lived experience. And so we see parents just kind of uneasy. We're just kind of hands off, like, I hope everything goes okay. And we toss our kids a phone and say, hey, be smart, don't do anything dumb. But we would never toss them the keys to a car and just say, hey, let's figure it out on your own. But that's kind of what's happening here. And we see this, this gap. And so what do you see? You talked about the big four. Those are the big four threats. How do we connect those to the smartphone addiction, driving anxiety, and the mental health crisis? Where do we go from there? Now that we see it, where do we go from there?
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Understand, first of all, the causative factor. The causative factor was that their minds were being shaped by something that just put it there for the most part. It's evil. There's certainly some good things that can come, through the social connections that may be provided. But, there's so much that is there that is not of Christ, not good, that is evil. So the first thing we have to do is just simply have an awareness that that is there. I have 10 grandchildren. My oldest is 16. And, one of the families live in the Franklin, Tennessee area where I do. And, I have been amazed at the conversations that I've had, particularly with my 16 year old, now that we have this almost adult type relationship conversation going on. And to hear what he is saying about what has happened to him and the challenges that he has brought up in a Christian home. His dad's a pastor. His dad happens to be my pastor as well. My son is my pastor. And just to have that awareness that I have a grandson or grandchildren, you have children, and we don't fully comprehend, but we do need to have an awareness that it has happened. So, you know, you know, step number one is, okay, it has happened and I have A lot of data that will depress people. In the book about hospital suicide, hospitalization, self harm, you know. And you know that in your field you see it daily, I am sure in my bill. And pastors see it regularly, in particular with COVID You stated that very well. And particularly with the quarantine. so when it's all said and done, Jessica, we have an awareness, but then we ask the question, okay, if this has happened to them, what practically can I do? What can I, what, what can I offer this generation? I want to make sure I'm cognizant of the time here. So I don't want to tell too many stories, but one. One story day I was consulting with a church where the median age was almost is about 75. And it was a declining church, obviously because of the age of the people and the congregation dying out. And they had almost no young people. And they wanted me to come in and be a silver bullet and tell them how to get young people into church. I said, I'm not a silver bullet, but I said, God can use you. And one adult lady, even older than me took it to heart. And I said, one of you could change this. And here's what she did. She went on Facebook and she said, hey, I'm such and such. I was a single mom many years ago. If there's some single moms in there that would just like to connect with me and meet in person at my church, and again, it wasn't during a worship time, it was during the week. I'll be here at this. Well, guess what? But the church had no young people. What do single moms have? They have children and they brought their children. And the church began to get younger. And within about six months they had 30 young people in that church venue. And they not only were, not only were people becoming followers of Christ, but these young people were beginning to be shaped in a different way than they ever had before. And that was one person, one person, a senior adult who said, God can use me in this era. So one of the challenges that I have for me, for anyone listening to this podcast, for any of us, is what can I do? When when everybody says it's a helpless, hopeless situation, what can I do? And I have no idea what your question was, so I sure hope I answered it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You did. And you really hit the nail on the head because in a world where they have all of these connections, the connection, Thom, are so superficial and it's not people that really care about them. Who are invested in them. This is the disconnect that I'm seeing in people trying to follow spiritual influencers online or just even engaging with church online. It's not someone who is walking with you who's going to watch your kids for that single mom while they go to a healthcare appointment or while they go to the grocery store helping them out, or she's going to show up at your house when something bad happens and sit beside you and, and, and just be there with you. And you're so right in describing the bleakness of my world. I see mental health crises and pediatrics every single day.
Dr. Jessica Peck: What Gen Z is looking for is authentic connection
And there is bleakness in your world too, Thom, when you see the loss of credibility in the church, the declining credibility of pastors. When we look at Gallup's poll of most trustworthy professions, of which I'd say nursing stays at the top, I'm really thankful for that. We've stayed at the top again this year, but we see that decline of pastors. But, but you are giving us such a powerful message of hope in all of that. Because what Gen Z is looking for is authentic connection. And I would love for you to talk more about how the church can meaningfully do that and why we can give kids a compelling reason to go to church and what we meet them there with when they come.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Well, at the risk of, too much self promotion, after I wrote this book, I started writing another book. It'll be out, I think this year sometime. And it's called the Revival of the Analog Church. And the whole thought pattern behind that, the whole thesis of the book was this. What does the church need to do in order to connect with anybody? Anxious generation, for certain, but anyone. And here's what our research is showing. Certainly great music is good, certain. Certainly nice, facilities are good. There's nothing wrong with any of the that. But what these young people want, and I focused on Gen Z and Gen Alpha and the revival of the Analog Church. What they want is people who care, people who love, people who walk alongside them. And guess what? A church that had all senior adults can reach families that end up having 30 young people in the church because people walked alongside them and loved them and cared. Here's what I'm amazed at. when I was a teenager, I have vague memories of it. It's so long ago that the memories are, are very, very vague. But when I was a teenager, I really didn't want to hang out with older people. that was, that was not what my generation, as a rule, wanted to do. Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as a rule, love the connection with older people. They love the. What they perceive as the wisdom and the concern and the care. And where can that hope be best manifested it in the local church. And it can be highly intentional in the local church as well. So I keep riding on my hobby horse again and again. What are we doing? What are we doing in the local church to make a difference? Certainly the gospel can be spread beyond the local church as a. As a local body, but, it is the local church that God is using to bring this generation back to him, to bring this generation back to biblical sanity, if you will.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so right, Thom. and I see that you can see this younger generation, their desire to connect because it's a little painful for both of us. But Gen Z has an affinity for what they call vintage. They love vintage things. We're talking about things like record players or even digital cameras. They're moving away from their smartphone. And we have trends like, grandma chic or coastal grandma, where kids are actually dressing up like they perceive their grandmothers. There is a whole home decorating genre about grand millennial chic. This is an opportunity that we have to forge that connection. And when we come back, I'm going to talk more about what I see as the strengths, the overlooked strengths and resources of older generations. And we'll hear more about Tom's research and finding a spiritual solution. How do we have real church, real discipleship, but most importantly, real hope. We'll be right back with more from Thom Raynor. Don't miss it. See you on the other side of this break.
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Forrest Frank's song Your ways Better is inspiring to Gen Z listeners
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Your Way's Better by Forrest Frank: Oh, Lord, I need you now more than ever Would you put my heart back together? I search the world 'til my head hurt Just to find out your ways better oh, your way's better oh, your way's always better oh, Lord, your way's Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is your way's Better by Forrest Frank. And you haven't been following that artist. Let me tell you, he is just killing it in connecting with Gen Z. And some of you, as you heard that song, you may have been doing the motions. Maybe your grandkids or your kids taught you the motion to. The viral song that went all the way around the world was played on secular radio stations as well as Christian radio stations. And how encouraging to hear a message of, hey, your way's better. I've searched the world, I've tried different things. God's way better is better. This is the song of hope that is rising from Gen Z, which is so encouraging to me.
Dr. Thom Rainer believes the church is not dying, it's refining
And My guest today, Dr. Thom Rainer, believes the church is not dying, it's refining. And his work offers not doom and gloom and despair, which we often hear in these messages of cultural darkness. He is giving you today a message of hope and he is arguing that Gen Z is not long. They are looking and the church must be ready to meet them. Not with programs, not with performance, not with perfection, but with presence and discipleship and belonging. And most importantly, above all of that, biblical truth. We see Bible sales soaring, but the opportunity for discipleship there is critical. Kids need to be connected.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Gen Z wants meaningful conversations with older generations about things that matter
And Thom, before the break, you and I were just talking about how this generation, Gen Z, they want to have long, meaningful conversations with older generations about things that matter. And I think that in previous generations, as you said, you know, we kind of wrote off old, you didn't want to be around older people. That was the drag, you know. Now we see that changing. And I think that older generations have two things that younger generations do not have that are very much overlooked. The first thing that they have is time. Time. And in this generation, especially Gen Z's parents, they are pressed for time. Many are in single parent households or dual, working households or just households where there's lots of pressure to provide for your kids academically. And we see all this rise in youth, sports and all the things, and they're well intentioned. But we see grandparents have time and older generations have time like younger generations don't. The second is experience. And we kind of think, oh, older generations, they don't know what it's like to live through smartphone, to grow up with social media. No, they don't. But they do know what it's like to be rejected, to be destitute, to have heartbreak, to have those emotional issues, to deal with sin issues and to have the heart behind all of those issues that Gen Z is facing is the same and have the experience that they have to say, hey, I've walked with the Lord. For 50 years, for 60 years now. Now here's how I found him. Faithful. That's the kind of connection that Gen Z is looking for. Do you agree with that?
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Not only I do agree. I'm. I'm m about to start cheering alongside you. Just.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Good, let's do it.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: back in October, I'm somewhat active on social media. Certainly don't profess to, to know all the ins and out and I'm limited primarily to, to X and to, to Facebook and very, very selective. But back in October, I posted on X and during the break I just, I just grabbed it and it is, I'm talking about the post and I'm going to read. It'll only take a second. It is an echo of what you just said. The post went viral. I hardly ever have anything go viral anymore because people say, you know, that's, that's, that's Rainer. He's, We've heard that before. But this one, this one about my area of known expertise. This was about me being a granddad and this was the post. Yesterday, my grandson called me just to talk. We talked about school, football, church, and his new love of golf. We laughed and we laughed again. After 45 minutes, he told me he had to go. The entire conversation was just to talk. Whatever undeserved human recognition I got get, whatever positions I have had, they all pale in comparison to having a grandson who just wants to talk. I love my family. I love them all so very much. That post was.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm choking up here.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: That post was incidental. You know, I just hung up and said, oh, this is on my heart. I'm going to post it. And then I realized what an incredible blessing. I mean, a blessing to have children and in the way his parents have raised him and to have grandchildren and, and my grand, my grandchildren have had the same challenges many children do. Many youth do. But here is what this young man wanted. He wanted just to talk. He wanted just to connect. He wanted a real relationship. He has it. But he, he wanted it manifest in, in a conversation. Oh my goodness, Jess. Can the church do that? On, I was about to say on steroids? It's probably not the best metaphor. Can do that in an accelerated spirit way.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah.
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: You know, it wasn't. What an opportunity. And here's what we're finding somewhere, depending on who the research is. Our research, we showed about seven out of ten, seven out of ten teens. I'll put that part of Gen Z and into the play. 7 out of 10 teens teenagers, if invited to church, and you bring them to church, will come, even if they've never been to church. You know, churches want to outreach strategy, if you will. Well, they're out there waiting for you. And once they get into church, believers or non believers, and they start connecting and we as adults, middle age, younger age, seniors, we start investing in them. You're right. We have the time, they don't. But they want that. They want their time to be spent more meaningful than some of the other things they do. And I don't think my grandson had 45 minutes because I know his schedule, but he wanted to take it because it was one of the most important things he could do at the time. We have, ah, what God. What God has provided us in the local church, what God has provided us as believers is what these young people need. They need our time, they need our wisdom, they need our experience, but they need our love. And they need someone who simply says, I, know you're not perfect, but I love you and I care for you. That is the greatest gift we can give them. That's the greatest gift the church can give these young people.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Thom, what a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that and your legacy. I think anyone listening thinks, if I could have that, like, that would be enough. That is, that's absolutely beautiful. And I know the work that you do is with your family in mind, making the world a better place for generations to come. And you make a compelling point. Seven out of 10 teenagers would say yes if you simply invite them. Now, let's fast forward. Let's talk about can the church do this in an accelerated fashion, as you say? And I think what I see, especially since COVID when a lot of church services went online, it's like all of a sudden, oh, my goodness, what was just, you know, local here and what we just knew in our community is now the curtains pulled back. And now we feel this pressure for a technical production and, and for excellence. And there's so much emphasis on programming and digital screens and, and kids already live in a screen saturated world. And how can we redirect the church's attention? Well, like you said, a, nice building is important. We want to steward what God has given us. We want to make it comfortable and, and attractive for people to come in. We want to take care of it just like we would take care of our own house. And we want to be excellent in what we do. But how do we shift the emphasis back to the connection, back to the relationship, back to what kids are going to be looking for when they walk in the door, based on that invitation that you've given them.
Most of our online viewing has declined dramatically for churches
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Let's start with reality again. always a good place to start. I haven't done the research but one of our co research is about a guy by the name of Ryan Burge. And if you ever want to look at what's happening in the church world, his, his substack called graphs about religion. Religion is fantastic, a lot of data. but here's the point. Guess who is watching online. Almost everyone who watches online has attended in person. There is a myth that we are reaching the people who have not been reached online. No, he calls them the super Christians. They'll go to church and then they'll want to hear the sermon again or they want to hear parts of it again. Most of our online, online viewing has declined dramatically for churches. We need to invest more in caring about people one on one than the latest technology. Certainly not like you Jessica. I'm not against any of these things. I don't want to be an old folky that just any, anything that is technological as I'm again it. But I do want to say that's that is not where Gen Z is and Gen Z is not in the digital church world. They are not viewing it. And that data is not mine. It comes from one of the foremost researchers who is saying no, no, if you're going to reach Gen Z, they're going to be there with you. And so one of the things we have to do is we have to realign. Okay, if they're going to be there with us, then what does that mean? And if I were a pastor again, one of the things that I would do is I would start a strategy approach prayer and I would say let's go 30 days, maybe 30 days of some kind of fasting and prayer. and let's talk about what we can do to reach the next generation, but also to reach our community as well. And then we would make the commitments that we need to make to go out into the community and to bring them in. And there's so much more to that. I mean I'm just I'm just, just skimming the surface on that. But the main thing that we would do is the reality. If we're going to reach them, they're going to be beside us, not viewing us. And that is the key as much as anything.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It really is. You know, when my kids were growing up we made a, what I called a reverse rule. We told Them. You never have to ask our permission to invite anyone to church. You always have an open invitation to invite your friend anywhere, anytime. And your dad and I will work to find a way to help them get there. If they want to come, we will figure that out. But you never have to come to us and say, well let ask my mom if I can invite them. No, there is always an open invitation. And like you said Dom, you know, you don't. I don't want to sound like an old fogey because sometimes I feel that way. But there are some timeless truths and that longing for connection and some of the simple things like when they come to church, ask them to go to lunch. When we talk about breaking bread together, that is something that is all through the NewSong Testament church. Just sitting over a meal together talking about that, those simple relationship connections, that's where the hope is found. That's where the hope is that the sum of the solution is really a lot more simple than we think. It's not some, we want some instant gratification, we want some magic miracle cure. But it's in those daily spiritual disciplines. It's in those it pursuing our own discipleship journey that then spreads to others.
One of The biggest predictors of young people going to church is their parents going
How do you see that as parents? Because I think one of the biggest predictors of kids going to church is their parents going. How do we get their parents to engage?
Dr. Thom S. Rainer: Well, first of all, you think, and you're right, the biggest predictor of young people going to church are their children going to church. And I would hit to the heart of where parent most parents are. They want the best for their kids. There's some parents that have neglected and abused. We know that that minority exists. But most parents want the best for their kids. That's why they're on the sports teams. That's, that's, that's why they are trying to give them academic help. That's why they're doing all of these things, because they love their kids and they want the best for them. The message we have to get to these parents, including parents like you, grandparents like me and the rest of the world, is the best way you can help your child is to walk with him, walk with her to church. Not to send them, but to go with them. If you want to see transformation of the mind and the heart, if you want to see mental illness addressed through the spirit of Christ, no magic bullet, but just the transformation, transformational power of Christ parent, what you must do is not only let your kid go to church, but go to church with them. You are shaping their presence, but you're also shaping their future. And in many ways, you're determining not from a deterministic point of view, but from an influence point of view. You are determining what your grandkids are going to be like that you have not yet met. You are determining the future. And the Old Testament is so full of the legacy of one generation to the next. And it blends into the NewSong Testament church. That has not discontinued, that has not happened. And just, just, just keep this in mind. First Corinthians 12 was about a messed up church. Well, a lot of First Corinthians was. And it said basically, basically, if, we exercise our gifts in the context of the local church, then, the church is going to be healthy. And by the way, what does that lead to? First Corinthians 13. Most people see First Corinthians 13 as a wedding passage. Okay, but it's not. But it's sweet to have it in a wedding, but it's not, not. It is about the greatest thing that we can do is be the body of Christ and to sacrificially live for others. And guess who that includes? That includes not only all generations, but specifically the generation that is looking for someone, somewhere, somehow to show I care. And that's for that is truly the love chapter. I can give my body to be burned. I can give all my possessions to the blood poor. But if I have not love, I have nothing, I have gained nothing. That's the key for the church. It's not a magic formula, is not some type of secret. It is just doing it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so encouraging. And thinking from that passage, without love, I'm, a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. And what a great metaphor for the noise that's provided to kids by social media and smartphones. It's a lot of noise, noise, but there is no real connection that happens through there. That is going to happen through the family. And the greatest tool for the family and discipleship is being involved in a local church. It is our habit three of this year. You can go back, listen to any Friday show we go and dive deep into that how you and your family can plug into a local church. Well, Thom, I had very high expectations for this conversation and it has just exceeded all of those. I'm always so encouraged to find people who have hopeful visions for this future generation, for the world. God is not done. He who has began a good work will be faithful to complete it. I hope if you are a parent, if you are in a church, if you are just a living, breathing human adult that you will get a copy of this book. The Anxious generation goes to church. And wherever you are, whatever you do I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And I'll see you right back here next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and.
: Opinions expressed in this broadcast may not.
Jeff Chamblee: Necessarily reflect those of the American Family.
: Association or American Family Radio.
