Hamilton: God has called us to be ambassadors even in this dark moment
Joseph Parker: Darkness is not an affirmative force. It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
Abraham Hamilton III: This is the, Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
Joseph Parker: It should be uncomfortable for a believer.
J. Warner Wallace: To live as a hypocrite, delivering people.
Abraham Hamilton III: Out of the bondage of mainstream media and the philosophies of this world.
Joseph Parker: God has called you and me to be his ambassadors even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment.
Abraham Hamilton III: And now the, Hamilton Corner.
Alex McFarland: Well, good Evening America.
Alex McFarland welcomes Jay Warner Wallace on American Family Radio Network
Alex McFarland here, coming to you from Western North Carolina, the COVID the Billy Graham Training center in Asheville, North Carolina. And have we got a show tonight? You do not want to miss the next few moments of radio on the American Family Radio Network because here to my right is our friend and colleague, Jay Warner Wallace.
J. Warner Wallace: Thanks for having me.
Alex McFarland: Thanks for having you graciously, agreeing to be with us this hour. And he's just moments away from taking the stage and spe. So for one thing, I got a lot of things I want to thank you and commend you for, but thanks for being with us. as you're really en route to give a lecture tonight.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, as you know, we've been doing, we're actually dividing up, I think 12 or 13 or 14 lectures that we're doing here, at the COVID which is a great opportunity. this is my first time doing a week long series here at the COVID But this audience has been just spectacular and interested Christians who want to be able to defend and articulate their faith and it's just been a great opportunity.
Alex McFarland: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, we've talked about atheism, we've talked about is the Bible trustworthy? Does God exist? And later on in the show we're going to take some calls in the third segment. I'm going to go ahead and give that number and you can get in the queue because rare opportunity, to talk with one of the preeminent best selling apologists of recent years, J. Warner Wallace. We'll talk about his books, but the number is trip 858-98-8840. That's triple 858-9840. And as I say, we won't get to calls till the third segment. But you can get in the queue if you want to. But for those that may be unaware, I want to really cue it up and hear a little bit of your story. And with all my heart I could not be more sincere. the respect I have for this man is just, beyond words because Jim, you are Brilliant. You are faithful to God's word. You're an ambassador for the gospel. But I happen to know you. You do this from the heart. You're a minister, one of the best representatives of Jesus. That is also, you kind of have one foot in academia, one foot in ministry. And I've been around a lot of people. in terms of someone who's absolutely authentic, you're at the top of the list. And I commend you, my friend.
J. Warner Wallace: You are very kind. A lot of this is what's so great about getting to do this in this season of life, is that you older guy now, and we kind of did had a whole career working in law enforcement. That gives me an opportunity now, my retirement, to just do the things that we both love to do. How cool is it that we get to do, the stuff that we are passionate about anyway? I think at this stage in life, I would have been in scripture every day anyway. Now I get to go and learn something and then teach it to others. I think that's really the joy of. When I think about my passion for God, really, it's just a passion for God's word. Right. I'm looking at it forensically. I'm digging through it every day, fascinated by something new that you find, and then you want to share it with somebody. And I'm always pestering my wife, look what I found today in Scripture. What do you think of this? And I'm sure she's at a point right now where she's like, okay, that's great. So when we come to these events for a week, we get a chance to talk to people who also would like to know, like, is there something from scripture that will help me either articulate my faith, defend my faith, have more confidence in the culture in which we're living, raise my kids, raise my grandkids. These are the kinds of things. It's just a joy to be able to help people, to think through them, because I'm also struggling with some of those things, and I want to do better at it also. So this is a chance for us to do it together.
Alex McFarland: Indeed.
Forensic analysis looks for clues in Bible that give away hidden information
you mentioned forensically. What does that mean, to look at something forensically?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, this is from a Latin word that basically means to make a public case for. And so what I'm looking at are the things that, I'm always dissecting the scripture and going, oh, wow, this is interesting. Why would Matthew have included this detail? Is it something that's necessary? If it's not necessary, why would he have included it. Maybe I'm not seeing. Maybe it is necessary. Maybe I need to study it more. And so what you're doing is you're kind of looking at each line of scripture as if it's a piece of evidence that's giving away something that's hidden something. This is what you're doing with people as suspect statements. When I read a statement of a suspect, I've worked cold case humble homicides for years. When you're reading a suspect statement, you're thinking, oh, I bet you he's going to say something here that's going to give him away. And, I'm just reading over it. I'm just missing it. Let me be more. A little more careful. Let me examine the kinds of words. You know, we're at a conference right now. Pardon me. Where we've got one attendee here, Sharon Smith, who I worked with for years. She's a psycholinguist from the FBI. And together we would do this forensic statement analysis on suspects, kind of looking to see did they say anything that was that gave away a lie. Looking for deception indicators, looking for these things that are little tells. So is this our guy? Is this the right guy? What did he say that would indicate he's the right guy? For years, she did threat assessment where she was just reading threats from people that would mail him into corporations or to ministries or to the government and assessing whether or not their language could tell her if they were serious about the threat. Well, okay, what if he applied this, looking at all the different, ways that people provide hidden information, in the way they communicate something. Well, I've always read scripture that way, and that's really how I got interested. Give me an example. When I first got interested in the Bible, pastor said Jesus was a smart guy. So I bought a Bible and I opened up the Gospel of Mark. And I think I started in that gospel because it was so short.
Alex McFarland: Yeah. And it's pretty accessible.
J. Warner Wallace: Just give me a Reader's digest version here. Okay. I was not a Christian, so I just wanted to kind of cut to the chase. So I'm reading through Mark's Gospel, and there are so many places where there are little tells. Like, you know, I learned much later that in history there were early Christians who claimed that Mark was scribing for Peter. Well, is there anything in Mark's gospel that would give away the fact that maybe he is an associate of Peter and is scribing Peter's accounts? Well, there's tons of stuff in there. And that's the kind of stuff that was fascinating to me. Like, let's make a claim. did Jesus really claim to be God? What kind of language did he use that would give away the fact that he was or wasn't God? That whole forensic approach to reading the words of scripture, for me, that's what I'm fascinated in. And I just kind of imported that from detective work into the scriptures, and I was just geeked out. I remember when I first got interested in this. I think my wife thought I was crazy because I'm not a Christian. But here I am, devouring Scripture, and I was not trying to prove it wrong. I wasn't like Lee, our friend Lee Strobel, who was trying to prove Leslie wrong. I wasn't doing that. I didn't care. I mean, I didn't have an interest. Susie wasn't a believer either, so it was easy for me just to kind of start reading. But here I am reading through the Bible and just dissecting it forensically. And I think Susie thought I was nuts. But in the end, I just got to a place where I don't. I think I thought it passed the test. It passed all the tests that you would apply to an eyewitness account. And then I was. Ultimately, I felt like I was stuck with Jesus in a good way, But, I mean, I just knew that it was true. So that. That changed everything for us.
Alex McFarland: Great story. Great story. And, folks, if you're listening to this and, maybe. Maybe you are a Christian or maybe, you know, somebody who is not a Christian, somebody you're concerned about, you know, @afr.net, this show will be up on the server. And maybe even after we're done, we're gonna. In our conversation, we're gonna plumb some subjects and drill down deeply. But you might want to share a link with somebody that is, kind of kicking the tires and saying, gee, is this real? Is this really true? I think, J. Warner Wallace's journey would be pretty enlightening for a lot of people.
Did you go in as a detective or did that develop later on as policeman
I gotta ask you. So you were in law enforcement?
J. Warner Wallace: Yep.
Alex McFarland: Now, did you go in as a detective, or did that develop later on as you were a policeman?
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah. So funny, because so many people, young people, will come up to you and say, I'm interested in being a detective. Well, okay. You don't just enter into a detective position. That's usually something you either promote, depending on the department, or you just get selected or you apply for it. You start off as a patrol Officer. So you walk in and you go through the academy. You work in patrol for any number of years. I also worked street narcotics for a while. I did three years in swat. I worked undercover for a number of years. I worked two years in gangs, and then ultimately I was assigned a robbery homicide. And then after I was there for five years, well, then I started working cold cases. So that was kind of my journey and my son's journey even seems like now it's pretty similar. You know, he worked patrol years fto, now he's working undercover. These are the things we end up doing in a typical career, trail in law enforcement. But once I got in detectives, I really felt like I was in my sweet spot.
Alex McFarland: I was really interested in Los Angeles.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, Los Angeles county, just south of LAPD's jurisdiction. And, that was, just a great place to. There's a lot of activity, a lot going on, and it was just enough activity. And we were at a southern part of the city where the crimes were a little, trickier to work sometimes because I worked a lot, to be honest with you. You ever seen Jim Gaffig in the Comedian talk about. Of course he talks about Date Line. It seems like every murder is a spousal murder on Dateline, because it seems like every happy marriage ends in a murder. Well, we had a lot of those in our city, really. And so some of those cases are the most intriguing to work because they're often thoughtful people who take a long time planning and often do a great job of covering their tracks afterwards. And just on a selfish perspective, they're fun to work because it's almost like a cat and mouse game. And if you're working cold cases, then this killer has been on the loose, has been able to avoid detection for 30 years. He really does feel like he's good at this. Well, I want to be good at it, too. So now it really is a cat and mouse game, especially during the first interviews.
Working with Keith Morrison was fascinating because he's a very good interviewer
Alex McFarland: You know, you mentioned Dateline, which for years and years I've loved to watch that show. One of the reasons. Keith, Morrison.
J. Warner Wallace: I know your comment.
Alex McFarland: I love his voice. You know, Bill thought that he had gotten away, but witnesses said otherwise. Jim Gaffigan does a great Keith Morrison.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, he does.
Alex McFarland: And I remember, you know, there would be, like, somebody who's, his alibi was that he was 250 miles away, and maybe there's like, a four and a half hour window, and it is conceivable that he could have driven the crime. And, one Night. Angie and my wife, Angie and I, we were, This is probably four or five years ago. She shouted. She goes, come here, come here, come here, come here. Jim Wallace is on Dateline. And, you know, but you, You've been on there a number of times, haven't you?
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, yeah, I think I've still hold the record from. Of course, you know, as you get older, you wonder how it's gonna break the record. But I think I still hold the record for most appearances on Dateline. But I'll tell you that that working with Keith was really fascinating because he's a very good interviewer. It's not just that he's got that great voice. Yeah. It's that he has the ability to get people to say things. Not, not necessarily the cops he's interviewing. But, you know, he interviews everybody. He interviews the family and he asks interesting, probing questions that, he gets very interesting answers from. And then, of course, he is able to narrate this in this loopy, kind of just Google Saturday Night Live, Keith Morrison. You'll see the skits that have been done on Keith Morrison. They're just fabulous. But, but he's actually very interested, very accessible kind of guy. and really a great, A great man to, to, to work with and all those. I really appreciate his kindness to me over the years.
Joseph Parker: When a cold case finally breaks, there's jubilation
Alex McFarland: Is there a time like in a case and you spent hours and hours pouring over data and then all of a sudden there's an aha moment.
J. Warner Wallace: Oh, yeah. Oh, there's definitely many of those. Yeah, there's. Oh, there's just. It's a point of jubilance because you spend so much time and often in these cases, you're kind of like you're fishing. You know, you think you know where to cast, though, so you're not just throwing the lure out anywhere. You think over in this area, this person might know something? You know, I've done wire cases where we had to listen on a wire to see if somebody was say something. I've done cases where if this one interview goes the way it should, we're going to get a piece of information that's going to change the case. I've done cases where this one piece of forensic evidence tests out and matches this. It's going to break the case. So, yeah, there are moments when you're. When you just feel like, okay, finally we have a break. yeah, we use that language. We have a break in the case because it means we've been pushing and trying and trying and nothing is everything. Has been a dead end. Look, I had a case, I think you and I talked about this, where I had a killer from 1972. We didn't take that guy. Well, we didn't identify that guy until 2019. From 1972 to 2019, my dad had that case first. It went cold under his, investigation. I reopened it and another 17 years passed before we were able to solve it. And I'll tell you, that's the kind of case where you feel like, of course, if you're going to spend that many years working something, when it first finally breaks, you're going to feel a sense of not just relief. As a matter of fact, when, when that case did break and they did the press release, all of the detectives who worked on that case in my dad's generation wanted to come to the press release and they came to the press conference and they wept. These are guys who are, you know, a generation before me in law enforcement, and I'm an old guy and these are tough guys. And, and. But just the relief of knowing that this thing that had been open and unsolved for all those years was finally closing.
Alex McFarland: justice was being served.
J. Warner Wallace: Exactly. That's. And I think a part of it is, you know, we're sad that it's. Most people think the cops aren't affected by working a bunch of murders, but of course they are. And especially when children are killed. Sure, that's the kind of thing that people will eventually cry about.
Alex McFarland: We're going to have to take a break. Alex McFarland here along with Jay Warner Wallace, best selling author, apologist. We're going to talk more about his books, Cold Case Christianity and so much more. And apologetics. Plus your calls. Stay tuned. The American Family Radio Network is back after this brief break.
J. Warner Wallace: Don't go away.
Abraham Hamilton III: A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker.
Our goal is to use our words every day to bless others and point them to Christ
Joseph Parker: Our, words are powerful, much more so than we as human beings typically understand. A saying that used to be popular years ago stated, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me. This is possibly one of the biggest lies you will ever hear. Words can hurt to an extreme degree, and people use them to hurt others every single day. Yet for us as believers, followers of Christ, our goal is to use our words every day to bless others and point them to Christ. Our words should bless others, promote healing in people's lives, grace and encouragement in the lives of those around us. We should habitually lift others up by our words. It is, in fact, relatively easy to bless others and encourage people with our words. If we Wisely and very deliberately seek to do so.
Abraham Hamilton III: Shining light into the darkness. This is the Hamilton Corner, American Family Radio.
Jim Wallace: Jesus claimed that he had the power to forgive sin
Alex McFarland: Welcome back to the program. You know, when I think of somebody like, Jim Wallace, I think of second Peter 1:16, which is one of my favorite passages. It says, regarding the gospel, we have not followed cleverly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And the gospel that Jesus, the son of God, incarnated himself, came to earth, and he was not only able, but willing to go to the cross to pay our sin debt. it's not a myth or a legend. And while we believe in Christ by faith, it is very much a faith corroborated by evidence, empirical data that can be looked at. And, you know, I say that because you may be listening and maybe you know about God or you know about Jesus even, but it's a relationship and it is real. And God doesn't ask you to take a step into the dark for some blind, baseless, irrational faith. No, it is a very reasoned, very real, very legitimate response to known evidence that God invites you to make. And I say that because listening live right now, or maybe if you stumble across this file a, ah, year from now, the gospel is real. Jim, you were talking about reading Mark. I remember I was a college student going to UNC Greensboro. And, I had been in a, like a world religions class. And, one of the professors had said, well, Jesus never claimed to really be God. He was a good teacher. He was a moral example. He was a role model. But I remember I was reading Mark and I had been, you know, in English and literature. And In Mark chapter 2, Jesus claimed that he had the power to forgive sin.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, right.
Alex McFarland: They lowered a man down through the roof. And I was like, now wait a minute. only God can forgive sin.
J. Warner Wallace: Right.
Alex McFarland: I think Jesus did see himself as God incarnate.
Abraham Hamilton III: Right.
J. Warner Wallace: I mean, think about how controversial that would be. So he comes down, right, and he's going to. He says, your sins are forgiven. No, hold on. All he could forgive, all any of us forgive, are those sins that are committed against us. So how many sins do you think this guy on the mat had committed against Jesus at that time? No, he's saying.
Alex McFarland: Not that we know of.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, he's saying, the sins you've committed against anyone. Well, there's no one who can do that. We can all forgive people for the things that have been done to us. But the only person that can forgive, the only being that can forgive you for things you've done to everybody would have to be God. Because every one of those sins that you committed against all of those humans, you actually committed against God. So God could forgive you of your sins in those other instances. And I think the people who heard this, that's the other thing too. I often will see people cite these instances out of context. Just look at the reaction that Jesus always gets when he says something like this. The people who heard this in the first century clearly interpreted it, it as just that. Who does this guy think he is to say when he calls himself the I am or says that he existed before Abraham? The hearers wanted to stone him for this statement. Why? Because he's saying something that they clearly interpreted as blasphemous. He's claiming to be God. You know, I think it's so funny there's a scene in John because, let's face it, Jesus often did not speak directly about this, but spoke in a way that would cause his hearers to have to come and ask for clarification. I don't know if you've ever seen. If you go through, I think it's Mark four, It's one of the first, if not the first public teaching ever of Jesus. It's the parable of, the sower. And he teaches it. And everyone's like, what in the world is he talking about? And even his own disciples come to him and say, what was that about? What was that teaching about? And he talks about how only those who have ears will hear and have eyes will see. And it's very interesting to me that he's saying things in such a way that people, in order to take the next step to understand what he's saying, have to come to him for clarification. It's as if he's fishing with parables and you've been caught. If you're like, hey, tell me more about that, tell me more. And some people didn't ask to be told more. And he was fishing with your interest in the parable at some point in John. I think it's in. It's in the later chapters of John. He's at the temple, and somebody says, come on, just tell us. Just be straight with us. Are you the Son of God? And he doesn't even. Again, he answers with a rather questioning, parabolic kind of statement. And I thought, isn't that interesting that Jesus spoke in a way that people knew when he did finally speak outright and use the great I am in John chapter eight, People knew what he was saying. They knew he was making a claim to deity. So, while a skeptic might say in this generation, well, Jesus never said he was God, clearly the people who were in the first century who heard him speak thought otherwise, and they were willing to kill him for that statement.
Alex McFarland: Yeah, I mean, seriously, like in the Gospel of Mark, and very often we refer to Mark because in general, even critical scholars, there's a term called Mark and priority.
J. Warner Wallace: Right.
Alex McFarland: That they, you know, even skeptics give at least a little bit of, nod to the Gospel of Mark. And if you read like Mark 14, 61, 63, they said, we demand, are you the son of the blessed One?
J. Warner Wallace: Yes.
Alex McFarland: And Jesus quotes two scriptures. He says, I am. Which Exodus 3:14. A pious Jew of the first century would not even vocalize that.
J. Warner Wallace: That's right.
Alex McFarland: And then he quotes Daniel and he refers to himself, son of man. Yeah. And they rip their clothes and. Yeah, we don't need. Why are they doing charges?
J. Warner Wallace: Exactly. You've now said enough to, warrant your execution. Now, that's just to me. So it's really in the context of this. I love the idea of Mark and Priority also. I hope we have time to go through.
Matthew's gospel seems to address many of the early heresies
I wanted to say something I thought was so interesting. So I do believe that, like many scholars today, although not, this has not always been the case, that there are this many scholars who would agree with Mark in priori that Mark was the first gospel. But I also believe Mark is the first gospel. And one of the things you'll see is that in the earliest century, or the earliest decades, I should say, of the Christian church, a number of heresies arose kind of simultaneously. And I thought, you know, why do these heresies, Aratocis and certain forms of Gnosticism, these are arising in the early church. Well, why is that happening? Well, largely because Mark's Gospel is so brief. I think Mark actually believed. We better get this out now because Jesus is going to come back and we need. And then, of course, John the brother of James is martyred in 44, or James, rather, the brother of John is martyred in 44 A.D. now I think you start to see these gospels being written. Now. What's interesting is all of those heresies, if you look and just look through Matthew to see if there are any verses that address the earliest heresies, you're going to find a bunch of Matthew actually addresses the early heresies. And then if you look for the parallel verses in the Gospel of Mark that are parallel to the gospel Of Matthew, you'll find there are none. It turns out many of those heresies occurred because Mark's gospel was so brief that the heresies were able to emerge. Matthew's gospel settles the issue. Matthew's gospel is robust enough. Things that actually happened but weren't mentioned by Mark, and it settled the issue for all of those early heretics. It's just another evidence to me that Matthew's gospel comes after Mark because it seems to address many of the heresies that sprang up in the first few decades that were really because there wasn't enough information. You know, does Jesus have. Is he a real human? Did he have a real body? Well, there's no birth narrative in Mark. Docetists could look at Mark and say, yeah, I think he's just all spirit. He has no human body. But you can't get that impression from Matthew because he's got several passages that really appear to be addressing the issue of docetism. And I think those things, of course, actually happened. But Mark's gospel is intentionally brief. It's kind of like when we are at a crime scene, a robbery occurs. We get on the radio. The first guy who gets there, he says, okay, it's a white male in a, Ford truck, yellow in color. That's all he says. Now all the cars in the area are looking for that white male in a yellow Ford truck. Now a few more minutes, he says, okay, he's wearing a white T shirt, blue jeans, he's got short black hair. Okay, now we got more detail. And when I finally get there, I'm taking a longer and longer report. So the earliest reports are brief because they are urgent. The later reports are more detailed because they are reflective. That's what you see in the progress of gospels from Mark to Matthew.
Alex McFarland: You know, the whole Bible, is the word of God. But for Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, these are like four biographies of Jesus. The New Testament, which is really kind of the second half of the Bible, begins with these four biographies. and they say in some time, in some instances, they say they report on the same things. Yes, but in other instances, they report on different things.
J. Warner Wallace: That's right.
Alex McFarland: you know, I remember as a college student, and you know, in many ways, I'm still 35 years in. I'm as excited. I'm m more excited than I was even. And I was on fire back then. I remember I had heard that Luke was a physician. And in the Gospel of Luke, when the Roman soldier pierces Jesus side with a spear, blood and water Came out and I remember, and I was reading in a Josh McDowell book. That's probably exactly what a physician would note, would notice.
J. Warner Wallace: Well, look at Matthew. Matthew was a tax collector. You would compare the number of times that Matthew. Matthew mentions either gold, silver, or copper or bronze, as a monetary, system. Or mentions numbers. Other people will describe an event, but never mention the number of people who are there. Who mentions all the numbers? The number guy.
Alex McFarland: The cpa.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, the number guy. M. Matthew. There's so much about Matthew's gospel. Also, you'll see amazing stories in Matthew's Gospel of people who were considered very vile, who are utterly transformed. Well, who was considered vile and was utterly transformed. That's Matthew.
Alex McFarland: The guys that work for the irs.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, exactly. So Matthew does kind of give himself away as the tax collector who Jesus meets in Matthew 9. it was originally called Levi. In all the other Gospels, he's called Levi and Luke and Mark. But the point is, what's great about Matthew is that just like Mark gives himself away as a friend of Peter, for example, you will not find many, all the stupid things that Peter says in the Gospels. And he says many silly things. He doesn't say them in Mark. Mark has the most flattering version of Peter's silliness. You know, Peter's going to get out of the boat when Jesus is walking on water, but he doesn't do that in Mark. In Mark, he stays in the boat. In Matthew, he gets out and he sinks. And he's scolded by Jesus. So little faith. Mark doesn't even mention he gets out of the boat. I mean, again, you'll see lots of little tells in each gospel that kind of give away the authorship.
Alex McFarland: Well, and these things that you get a cohesive picture of Jesus, but four different voices.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes.
Alex McFarland: as a, ah, detective, what does that say to you about the credibility of these four biographies?
J. Warner Wallace: Right.
There are differences between eyewitness accounts in the New Testament
Well, here's what we should talk about. We often think, okay, this is God's word, as God has inspired this. But of course, he allows the eyewitness to speak from their own mindset with their own language and their own context. and so eyewitnesses do this all the time. You may only be talking about the angel that is speaking to you. So it sounds like there's only one angel present. Another person will not even talk about what that one angel said, but will mention that there were two angels present. It does not mean there's a contradiction in the account. It means that each person who's writing is focusing on One thing, this is often the case in eyewitness accounts. I've never had a set of five or six eyewitnesses to anything who agreed entirely. They are going to disagree about a number of things. Often when they are put together as a puzzle, you see, oh, it's all the same account. There is no real disagreement. It's just that each person is focusing on one piece. The only thing I ask as a homicide detective in the middle of the night when you call me out, is have the officer on the scene separate the eyewitnesses. Because if you don't separate eyewitnesses, you're going to get one story five times. They're going to work out all the details. You're going to end up really kind of smoothing some things over that I don't want you to smooth over, because that's my job as the detective. God's word has been presented to us in a way that we can investigate it and to determine that it's reliable and have the most robust puzzle we could possibly have.
Alex McFarland: So the differences, they're not discrepancies, but they're nuances and differences. You're saying that adds credibility?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, this is what provoked me. So I bought my first Bible. It was a pew Bible. It was super small. It had very small margins.
Alex McFarland: Like a hardback?
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, the kind of $7. I wasn't going to spend a lot of six or seven dollars. I wasn't going to spend a lot of money for this, so I bought a Bible. I didn't own a Bible. It was a pew Bible at like, like Pickwick B. Dalton Pickwick, all the old bookstores. So I buy this Bible, bring it home, and I'm reading through the Gospels just to see what's so smart about Jesus. This pastor said Jesus was smart. So I'm reading through the Gospels and I'm going, ah, look at how different this guy. This has got to be the same event he's describing as the other author. So why is this guy's description different? And I started to see this over and over and over and over again. Well, that's exactly what you see when you open up an old casebook where you've got five supplemental reports that were written by detectives who had interviewed eyewitnesses. Just like Luke says, he is interviewing the eyewitnesses and the servants of the word, and they write these reports and there's these variations between these. Now, often you're lucky enough to have witnesses who are still alive. And you can go and you can Ask them additional questions. But often in cold cases, these people are dead now, and I can't go back out and ask additional questions to clarify what they really saw. That's much like what we're doing here with the gospels right now. If God intended to deliver to us 4 true, reliable eyewitness accounts that were written in such a way that we could test them as eyewitness accounts, he did an excellent job, because that's what we have. And I think that was God's intention. It's not as though. Because, by the way, if you had four accounts that were exactly the same, you would need just one account. You need all four. And the earliest eyewitnesses knew as they were assembling this, as they were writing it, that they had slightly different variations of their account. It didn't stop them from writing it. And the first people who assembled the New Testament didn't try to redact out all the things that seemed to be different. No, they left that stuff in there because that's what eyewitnesses do. They talk that way, they report that way, and they allow us to test them that way.
J. Warner Wallace: Peter makes many mistakes in Mark's Gospel
Alex McFarland: You know, you were talking about Peter, and Mark perhaps working together, on this, Yeah, I love. In Mark 16, verse seven, when the angel at the tomb says, I know that you seek Jesus, he not here. He's risen. Go tell his disciples. And Peter. Now, the last time we saw Peter, he was denying the Lord. And let me just say we serve the God of the 2nd and 3rd and 50th chance.
J. Warner Wallace: Right?
Alex McFarland: Isn't that so sweet that. Hey, don't forget Peter. Well, and why I'm not through with him.
J. Warner Wallace: Exactly. Of course, he makes the biggest mistake. But isn't it interesting that, the author who is listening to. To Peter preach in Rome and is now writing basically the memoirs of Peter, and he's not writing them as necessarily a historical chronicle. He's writing them in themes. Because Peter is preaching in Rome. For example, how many times does Peter say something silly? It's in all the gospels. Well, only in Mark's Gospel, you see, Mark write it this way. Peter says this silly thing, and all the other disciples agreed. You see, that little ad, that little added part of the sentence in Mark's Gospel, because it's not just Peter. It's not just Peter who's a fool here. Everybody else felt the same way. That's what Mark does for Peter over and over and over again.
Alex McFarland: Wow. Well, folks, this is J. Warner Wallace. When we come back, we're going to get some questions. The number 885-898-840. That's 888-589-8840 toll free nationwide. If you have some apologetics questions, Bible questions, we'll be honored to hear from you. Jim, Wallace and myself will do our best to give you a factual answer. This is the Hamilton Corner on the American Family radio network. Alex McFarland, so glad you're listening. Stay tuned. A brief break and then we return.
55% of American adults say assassinating Donald Trump would be justified
Abraham Hamilton III: In a recent survey of 1,200 left of center American adults, 55% responded that assassinating Donald Trump could be justified. We're swimming in shark infested cultural waters. Some are suffering from Christianophobia. Jesus said, if they persecuted me, they'll also persecute you. Please give today to help AFA keep equipping you and others to stand for Christ. Help us shine his light into our dark culture. Visit afa.netwarier all right, Sandy Rios with you.
J. Warner Wallace: One more drama playing out. Is the sky falling? Are we going into recession? Are you gonna lose all of your 401k? Are you gonna lose your job? Are you gonna be able to afford groceries?
Caroline: People better be training their kids, getting back into church, Sunday school, reading the Bible. That revolution will save this country.
J. Warner Wallace: We've had a political revolution, now we need a spiritual revolution.
Abraham Hamilton III: Sandy rios on Sandy Rios 247 listen on the podcast page at afr.net the Hamilton Quarter podcast and one minute commentaries are available at afr.net, back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
Alex McFarland speaks with J. Warner Wallace about Christian apologetics
Alex McFarland: Hey, welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here. We're going to resume our conversation with J. Warner Wallace, cold case detective and defender of Christianity. And we are going to take calls. I see calls coming up. The number if you have a Bible question, an apologetics question, maybe you're a skeptic yourself. hey, let's have a respectful dialogue here. Maybe if you, you think all this, this God stuff is just, just ah, not real. Call us 888-589-8840. I do want to mention, coming up, August 21st, Charlie Kirk and I will be in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina at the Alabama Theater. It's a big theater. But listen, our friend Charlie Kirk of Turning Point usa, he's a great Christian brother and just an incredible political voice. He and I have shared the stage a few times and, he's joining, Fox and Friends morning show. So this will be one of the last times to get him live for a while. And there will be Open mic, Q and A, Charlie Kirk, the website alexmcfarland.com conversations part of our series Conversations that Matter. And Jim, I've got to ask, what is your most recent book?
J. Warner Wallace: Truth and True Crime. Well, actually, I've got a graphic novel of my son called Case Files for anyone who likes big fat comic books.
Alex McFarland: hey, graphic novels. Young people, man, they read this,
J. Warner Wallace: Well, and we tried to do one that would actually have a kind of an embedded message that's an apology Christian apologetics message. But it really is a serial killer on the loose kind of a comic book. So I hope this and people enjoy it. your website is coldcase christianity.com cold.
Alex McFarland: Case coldcasechristianity.com for the person who's maybe just kind of dipping their toe in the water of apologetics, which of your books or books do you recommend?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, the book that kind of started the whole thing for us was Cold Case Christianity. And I think that's still an accessible book. We've re illustrated it. You got over 300 illustrations. So I think it's a pretty quick and it's a deep, it's a deep dive that is accessible, let's put it that way. For people who are interested in investing in the New Testament.
Alex McFarland: Spelled just like it sounds. Cold case Christianity.com and we're going to go to some calls. We're going to start in, I believe it's Kentucky Brandon in Kentucky. Brandon, thanks for holding. Welcome to the program.
Caroline: Hey, thank you very much.
Jim Rider: Matthew 19: 16-17 is a fascinating passage
what caught my ear especially is, when you said about reading the Bible forensically, I love that term, about reading God's word and digging into it and getting gold, I like to call it, like getting the gold nuggets of God's word. And I was particular and talking about, Christ claim. People who think that Christ never claimed that he was God. And one of them that had caught my attention before, and I'd read over it before and I never really thought about it, but, to Matthew, chapter, 19, verses 16, 17, when Christ, addressed the rich young young ruler. And the rich young ruler said, you know, called, him good teacher.
Caroline: And Christ said, but why do you call me good? No one is good but one that is God. And it hit me and I can just see the Lord looking at him and saying, why do you call me good? No one is good but God. And it's almost like the Lord Jesus gave that rich young ruler just a pause for a moment and like, think about what you just called me. You know, Good teacher. No one is good but God. Do you. Do you really understand? Think about what you just called me. Because there's no one good but God.
Alex McFarland: Brandon, let me jump in on this. Let me throw it to Jim. okay. This is a fascinating passage. Matthew 19, 16, 17. Okay, good master. And Jesus says, why do you call me good? There is no one good but God. Jim, what was the Lord trying to get across there?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, there's a couple of ways this has kind of been traditional interpreted. I favor one probably more than the other. there is a sense in which the question is, good teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life? Now, why is he calling him a good teacher? And then why does Jesus then say, well, there's only one who is good, or there's only God is good? Well, there's almost a sense, I think, in which Jesus knows that. Who would know the path to eternal life better than the God of eternal life? And it's almost like you're saying, when you're coming to me with this question, it almost seems as though you already know the answer, because do you know who you are talking to? The, insightful way that Jesus responds to me is even bigger because what Jesus does is he kind of runs down the number of, commands, the commands of the ten commandments that he knows this young man can fulfill. And he leaves out the ones that he knows he doesn't fulfill. I think that's so fascinating because if I was to come to Jesus and say, ask the same question, he might list a different number of commandments that he knows I have no problem with.
Alex McFarland: But Jesus knows that's right.
J. Warner Wallace: He knows the which commandments would be the ones that this young man is keeping him from eternal life, the ones that he would have to submit to God. And so, of course, m. He mentions this stuff, but he leaves out anything about covetousness. He leaves out anything that really is in the lane that this young man is struggling with. What's so fascinating to me is that he's almost saying to this young man, it sounds like, you know who I am, don't you? And I'm going to show you that you're right, because I know where you struggle. And that, to me, is fascinating only because I think if it was you or me, he might leave out different commands for us because he knows where you and I struggle. But there are a couple of classic kind of traditional ways that that sentence has been interpreted by people over the years. I just like this idea. I think it's actually sound that he's asking the question almost rhetorically. Why are you asking me about what is good?
Alex McFarland: But one thing Jesus was not doing, he was not denying his deity, was he?
J. Warner Wallace: Oh, not at all. No, not as a matter of fact. That's why I think this is. And he just puts that deity on display when he leaves out the very commands that he knows this. There's no sense in this that Jesus knows this young man. This young man comes out of the cold and says he asked this question. And Jesus seems to know where this guy is struggling. how does he know that? Because of course, he is the rider of these laws. He knows all of our hearts. He knows the heart of this young man. So not only does he ask the question back. Why are you calling me good?
J. Warner Wallace: Do you know only one is good. Only God is good. Why are you. You're calling me God? And then he says to him the very thing that only God would know. So I think there's a sense in which he's kind of asking the question and answering it in the same statement.
Alex McFarland: The voice you're hearing is J. Warner Wallace. We're going to go to Arkansas. is it Terra Lisa? Am I pronouncing your name correct? Tera. Lisa. Thanks for holding. What is your question?
Caroline: once we become a Christian, should we sin? After we become a Christian?
Alex McFarland: Okay, we're gonna get the answer. Once we become a Christian, should we sin?
J. Warner Wallace: Should we sin? Okay, you mean. I mean, are you asking the question? Well, of course we shouldn't sin. Yes, but you're asking, once we become a Christian, are we going to sin again?
Alex McFarland: Sarah, Lisa, like, if we're a Christian, do we ever still sin? Yes.
J. Warner Wallace: Right. Okay, so.
The process of sanctification involves a long, crooked hallway
So here's my, the formula that I like to offer. It's a classic kind of reform formula. So what happens is there's a moment in time when you are justified and you are removed from the penalty of sin. And then there's that period of time when you're sanctified, you're removed from the overriding power of sin. And then there's that moment in time when you are glorified before God and you are removed from the presence of sin. Okay, well, that first point in which you become a Christian, that's a door that you walk through. It just is. It happens the moment you trust Christ as your savior, knowing that only he can forgive your sins. You admit that you're a sinner and you ask Jesus that you accept what he paid on the cross for that price he paid for your sin. That happens in a moment you decide to accept Christ as your Savior. That's a door you walk through. Also the moment you're glorified. That's also a door you walk through. It happens the moment you close your eyes for the last time and you're in the presence of a holy God and you are removed forever from the presence of sin. But that thing in the middle called sanctification is not a doorway. That is a long, crooked hallway with lots of ramps and bumps and bruises and. And crooked corners and sharp corners. And you're going to take two steps forward and one step back and you're going to bump into things, because that's what happens as we walk down the path from justification to glorification. That process of sanctification has all kinds of trips and falls and great victories and sad defeats. And this is going to happen. This is what God does to shape us over time. We often think, well, I should be able to walk through one door and right into the next. Let me tell you, the only straight hallway you're going to see is in people like the thief on the cross, who in one moment accepts Christ as Savior and the next moment is dead. His hallway is super short, okay? And it's pretty straight. But for those of us who might spend 30 years post being saved but not yet glorified, our hallways are going to be a lot more crooked, a lot more dangerous, filled with all kinds of ups and downs. Are you going to make mistakes in that period? Paul says it. He says, there's one aspect of the human condition I am certain. It's that I cannot do what I know I should do, and I continue to do what I know I shouldn't. Paul. Paul. Do you think he was saved when he wrote that? Of course he was, but he's in the hallway now, the long hallway of sanctification, and he's experiencing the hallway as it is. So if you're in that hallway and you're wondering, why, why do I sin? I shouldn't sin, should I? That just demonstrates you're already in the hallway. You've already walked through the first door. The spirit of God now is in that tug of war with your natural spirit, trying to guide you down the hallway. The fact that you're concerned about it is demonstrating the fact that the spirit of God has now got the hands on the wheel, and he's trying to tell you, let go. Let me drive this. And that's what the hallway does to us. So I would say, just, just, just know that this is a life of mistakes, of ups and downs. And that's exactly how it was designed to be.
Alex McFarland: Let's go to Oklahoma. Dorothy in Oklahoma. Thanks for holding.
J. Warner Wallace answers your question about the biblical Sabbath
Welcome to our conversation with J. Warner Wallace.
Caroline: Thank you for taking my call. This is in regards to the biblical Sabbath. I have read the Bible in Genesis, chapter two, starting at, verse two. The Bible says that on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made. And he rested on the seventh day from all the work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified, because that in it he had rested from all his work which he had created in May. And then, I go over to the Ten Commandments, and, in Exodus 20, verses 8 through 11, he tells us to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy.
Alex McFarland: Right.
Caroline: Six days we shall work and do all thy work, and that the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. So, God.
Alex McFarland: And you're wondering, like, why do we worship on Sunday?
Caroline: God doesn't have two Sabbaths. So, you know, why is there such confusion?
Alex McFarland: Hey, let me jump in, Dorothy. Thank you. This is a great question. And let me say that we don't say that Sunday is the Sabbath day now, like in Mark 16:2, and I'll throw it to Jim here in a second. This is very, very early in the morning on the first day of the week. Do you know the earliest Christians? and one of the things that we talk about are some of the, accounts of people that were not friends of the church. Like there was, Pliny, that was a Roman writer, and he says early on Sunday, the first day of the week, the Christians get up before daybreak to sing hymns to Christ as God. So, Jim, we get this question a lot. Yeah, we're not saying that the Sabbath was changed or anything like that. We are saying that really from within weeks after the cross, Christians were worshiping on Sunday, because that was Resurrection day, wasn't it?
J. Warner Wallace: Right. The earliest record we have of Christians who, practiced and who, met regularly after the ascension of Jesus is recorded in the Book of Acts. But you also see it, you know, in scripture, the day of the resurrection, the first day of the week is the day of the week that the earliest Christians met. Now, it's interesting to me because that is in God's word. And so, there's a sense in which I see no directive in God's word that tells the earliest Christians, no, no, no, stop doing that. Get back on Saturday. Saturday is the day of worship, Saturday, is the day we must leave it holy for the Lord. Instead, what we're simply doing as Christians is following the earliest habits and traits the same way we would look at anything in the Book of Acts and say, yeah, if they did it there, we should take that seriously. We should do it also. And so you'll see that the earliest Christians having contact with the eyewitnesses were meeting on the first day of the week. And I think because that wasn't scolded out of them by the earliest eyewitnesses of the Resurrection, that's good enough for me. I will also follow that same pattern.
Alex McFarland: We're going to try to get another call in. this is Mary in Louisiana. Mary, thanks for hosting it.
Caroline: Yeah. Can you hear me?
Alex McFarland: We can, yes. Thank you.
In Second Corinthians it says, be aware of Satan devices
Caroline: I just wanted to make a comment because I heard you earlier talking about investigation discovery, and I think you had used to. Was a detective or whatever, but. Yes, in Second Corinthians it says, be aware of Satan devices. What I wanted to say is I watched those shows, the Cold Case and all of that, and I'm going like, what women need to know and, and men too, that you got to be aware.
Alex McFarland: You need to forgive me. We're almost out of time. Forgive me. almost out of time. It says, be, aware of Satan's devices. Hey, you know, let me just say this. Even though we might get saved, we've come to Christ. The devil doesn't necessarily just leave us alone, does.
J. Warner Wallace: No, as a matter of fact, when you're just on the precipice of what some of the biggest advances you're going to make in your faith walk, that is typically when you're going to be assaulted by the wise and kind of wily devices of. Of Satan. So I'm always, aware when I'm getting ready to do something like a radio show like this, probably before I sit down to do it, I'm going to be. Something's going to happen because God, Satan does not want us to do what grows the kingdom of God.
Alex McFarland: Well, thanks for listening, folks. God bless you and tell somebody about Jesus. Thanks, Jim Wallace.
J. Warner Wallace: Thank you. The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Hamilton: God has called us to be ambassadors even in this dark moment
Joseph Parker: Darkness is not an affirmative force. It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.
Abraham Hamilton III: This is the, Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
Joseph Parker: It should be uncomfortable for a believer.
J. Warner Wallace: To live as a hypocrite, delivering people.
Abraham Hamilton III: Out of the bondage of mainstream media and the philosophies of this world.
Joseph Parker: God has called you and me to be his ambassadors even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment.
Abraham Hamilton III: And now the, Hamilton Corner.
Alex McFarland: Well, good Evening America.
Alex McFarland welcomes Jay Warner Wallace on American Family Radio Network
Alex McFarland here, coming to you from Western North Carolina, the COVID the Billy Graham Training center in Asheville, North Carolina. And have we got a show tonight? You do not want to miss the next few moments of radio on the American Family Radio Network because here to my right is our friend and colleague, Jay Warner Wallace.
J. Warner Wallace: Thanks for having me.
Alex McFarland: Thanks for having you graciously, agreeing to be with us this hour. And he's just moments away from taking the stage and spe. So for one thing, I got a lot of things I want to thank you and commend you for, but thanks for being with us. as you're really en route to give a lecture tonight.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, as you know, we've been doing, we're actually dividing up, I think 12 or 13 or 14 lectures that we're doing here, at the COVID which is a great opportunity. this is my first time doing a week long series here at the COVID But this audience has been just spectacular and interested Christians who want to be able to defend and articulate their faith and it's just been a great opportunity.
Alex McFarland: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, we've talked about atheism, we've talked about is the Bible trustworthy? Does God exist? And later on in the show we're going to take some calls in the third segment. I'm going to go ahead and give that number and you can get in the queue because rare opportunity, to talk with one of the preeminent best selling apologists of recent years, J. Warner Wallace. We'll talk about his books, but the number is trip 858-98-8840. That's triple 858-9840. And as I say, we won't get to calls till the third segment. But you can get in the queue if you want to. But for those that may be unaware, I want to really cue it up and hear a little bit of your story. And with all my heart I could not be more sincere. the respect I have for this man is just, beyond words because Jim, you are Brilliant. You are faithful to God's word. You're an ambassador for the gospel. But I happen to know you. You do this from the heart. You're a minister, one of the best representatives of Jesus. That is also, you kind of have one foot in academia, one foot in ministry. And I've been around a lot of people. in terms of someone who's absolutely authentic, you're at the top of the list. And I commend you, my friend.
J. Warner Wallace: You are very kind. A lot of this is what's so great about getting to do this in this season of life, is that you older guy now, and we kind of did had a whole career working in law enforcement. That gives me an opportunity now, my retirement, to just do the things that we both love to do. How cool is it that we get to do, the stuff that we are passionate about anyway? I think at this stage in life, I would have been in scripture every day anyway. Now I get to go and learn something and then teach it to others. I think that's really the joy of. When I think about my passion for God, really, it's just a passion for God's word. Right. I'm looking at it forensically. I'm digging through it every day, fascinated by something new that you find, and then you want to share it with somebody. And I'm always pestering my wife, look what I found today in Scripture. What do you think of this? And I'm sure she's at a point right now where she's like, okay, that's great. So when we come to these events for a week, we get a chance to talk to people who also would like to know, like, is there something from scripture that will help me either articulate my faith, defend my faith, have more confidence in the culture in which we're living, raise my kids, raise my grandkids. These are the kinds of things. It's just a joy to be able to help people, to think through them, because I'm also struggling with some of those things, and I want to do better at it also. So this is a chance for us to do it together.
Alex McFarland: Indeed.
Forensic analysis looks for clues in Bible that give away hidden information
you mentioned forensically. What does that mean, to look at something forensically?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, this is from a Latin word that basically means to make a public case for. And so what I'm looking at are the things that, I'm always dissecting the scripture and going, oh, wow, this is interesting. Why would Matthew have included this detail? Is it something that's necessary? If it's not necessary, why would he have included it. Maybe I'm not seeing. Maybe it is necessary. Maybe I need to study it more. And so what you're doing is you're kind of looking at each line of scripture as if it's a piece of evidence that's giving away something that's hidden something. This is what you're doing with people as suspect statements. When I read a statement of a suspect, I've worked cold case humble homicides for years. When you're reading a suspect statement, you're thinking, oh, I bet you he's going to say something here that's going to give him away. And, I'm just reading over it. I'm just missing it. Let me be more. A little more careful. Let me examine the kinds of words. You know, we're at a conference right now. Pardon me. Where we've got one attendee here, Sharon Smith, who I worked with for years. She's a psycholinguist from the FBI. And together we would do this forensic statement analysis on suspects, kind of looking to see did they say anything that was that gave away a lie. Looking for deception indicators, looking for these things that are little tells. So is this our guy? Is this the right guy? What did he say that would indicate he's the right guy? For years, she did threat assessment where she was just reading threats from people that would mail him into corporations or to ministries or to the government and assessing whether or not their language could tell her if they were serious about the threat. Well, okay, what if he applied this, looking at all the different, ways that people provide hidden information, in the way they communicate something. Well, I've always read scripture that way, and that's really how I got interested. Give me an example. When I first got interested in the Bible, pastor said Jesus was a smart guy. So I bought a Bible and I opened up the Gospel of Mark. And I think I started in that gospel because it was so short.
Alex McFarland: Yeah. And it's pretty accessible.
J. Warner Wallace: Just give me a Reader's digest version here. Okay. I was not a Christian, so I just wanted to kind of cut to the chase. So I'm reading through Mark's Gospel, and there are so many places where there are little tells. Like, you know, I learned much later that in history there were early Christians who claimed that Mark was scribing for Peter. Well, is there anything in Mark's gospel that would give away the fact that maybe he is an associate of Peter and is scribing Peter's accounts? Well, there's tons of stuff in there. And that's the kind of stuff that was fascinating to me. Like, let's make a claim. did Jesus really claim to be God? What kind of language did he use that would give away the fact that he was or wasn't God? That whole forensic approach to reading the words of scripture, for me, that's what I'm fascinated in. And I just kind of imported that from detective work into the scriptures, and I was just geeked out. I remember when I first got interested in this. I think my wife thought I was crazy because I'm not a Christian. But here I am, devouring Scripture, and I was not trying to prove it wrong. I wasn't like Lee, our friend Lee Strobel, who was trying to prove Leslie wrong. I wasn't doing that. I didn't care. I mean, I didn't have an interest. Susie wasn't a believer either, so it was easy for me just to kind of start reading. But here I am reading through the Bible and just dissecting it forensically. And I think Susie thought I was nuts. But in the end, I just got to a place where I don't. I think I thought it passed the test. It passed all the tests that you would apply to an eyewitness account. And then I was. Ultimately, I felt like I was stuck with Jesus in a good way, But, I mean, I just knew that it was true. So that. That changed everything for us.
Alex McFarland: Great story. Great story. And, folks, if you're listening to this and, maybe. Maybe you are a Christian or maybe, you know, somebody who is not a Christian, somebody you're concerned about, you know, @afr.net, this show will be up on the server. And maybe even after we're done, we're gonna. In our conversation, we're gonna plumb some subjects and drill down deeply. But you might want to share a link with somebody that is, kind of kicking the tires and saying, gee, is this real? Is this really true? I think, J. Warner Wallace's journey would be pretty enlightening for a lot of people.
Did you go in as a detective or did that develop later on as policeman
I gotta ask you. So you were in law enforcement?
J. Warner Wallace: Yep.
Alex McFarland: Now, did you go in as a detective, or did that develop later on as you were a policeman?
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah. So funny, because so many people, young people, will come up to you and say, I'm interested in being a detective. Well, okay. You don't just enter into a detective position. That's usually something you either promote, depending on the department, or you just get selected or you apply for it. You start off as a patrol Officer. So you walk in and you go through the academy. You work in patrol for any number of years. I also worked street narcotics for a while. I did three years in swat. I worked undercover for a number of years. I worked two years in gangs, and then ultimately I was assigned a robbery homicide. And then after I was there for five years, well, then I started working cold cases. So that was kind of my journey and my son's journey even seems like now it's pretty similar. You know, he worked patrol years fto, now he's working undercover. These are the things we end up doing in a typical career, trail in law enforcement. But once I got in detectives, I really felt like I was in my sweet spot.
Alex McFarland: I was really interested in Los Angeles.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, Los Angeles county, just south of LAPD's jurisdiction. And, that was, just a great place to. There's a lot of activity, a lot going on, and it was just enough activity. And we were at a southern part of the city where the crimes were a little, trickier to work sometimes because I worked a lot, to be honest with you. You ever seen Jim Gaffig in the Comedian talk about. Of course he talks about Date Line. It seems like every murder is a spousal murder on Dateline, because it seems like every happy marriage ends in a murder. Well, we had a lot of those in our city, really. And so some of those cases are the most intriguing to work because they're often thoughtful people who take a long time planning and often do a great job of covering their tracks afterwards. And just on a selfish perspective, they're fun to work because it's almost like a cat and mouse game. And if you're working cold cases, then this killer has been on the loose, has been able to avoid detection for 30 years. He really does feel like he's good at this. Well, I want to be good at it, too. So now it really is a cat and mouse game, especially during the first interviews.
Working with Keith Morrison was fascinating because he's a very good interviewer
Alex McFarland: You know, you mentioned Dateline, which for years and years I've loved to watch that show. One of the reasons. Keith, Morrison.
J. Warner Wallace: I know your comment.
Alex McFarland: I love his voice. You know, Bill thought that he had gotten away, but witnesses said otherwise. Jim Gaffigan does a great Keith Morrison.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, he does.
Alex McFarland: And I remember, you know, there would be, like, somebody who's, his alibi was that he was 250 miles away, and maybe there's like, a four and a half hour window, and it is conceivable that he could have driven the crime. And, one Night. Angie and my wife, Angie and I, we were, This is probably four or five years ago. She shouted. She goes, come here, come here, come here, come here. Jim Wallace is on Dateline. And, you know, but you, You've been on there a number of times, haven't you?
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, yeah, I think I've still hold the record from. Of course, you know, as you get older, you wonder how it's gonna break the record. But I think I still hold the record for most appearances on Dateline. But I'll tell you that that working with Keith was really fascinating because he's a very good interviewer. It's not just that he's got that great voice. Yeah. It's that he has the ability to get people to say things. Not, not necessarily the cops he's interviewing. But, you know, he interviews everybody. He interviews the family and he asks interesting, probing questions that, he gets very interesting answers from. And then, of course, he is able to narrate this in this loopy, kind of just Google Saturday Night Live, Keith Morrison. You'll see the skits that have been done on Keith Morrison. They're just fabulous. But, but he's actually very interested, very accessible kind of guy. and really a great, A great man to, to, to work with and all those. I really appreciate his kindness to me over the years.
Joseph Parker: When a cold case finally breaks, there's jubilation
Alex McFarland: Is there a time like in a case and you spent hours and hours pouring over data and then all of a sudden there's an aha moment.
J. Warner Wallace: Oh, yeah. Oh, there's definitely many of those. Yeah, there's. Oh, there's just. It's a point of jubilance because you spend so much time and often in these cases, you're kind of like you're fishing. You know, you think you know where to cast, though, so you're not just throwing the lure out anywhere. You think over in this area, this person might know something? You know, I've done wire cases where we had to listen on a wire to see if somebody was say something. I've done cases where if this one interview goes the way it should, we're going to get a piece of information that's going to change the case. I've done cases where this one piece of forensic evidence tests out and matches this. It's going to break the case. So, yeah, there are moments when you're. When you just feel like, okay, finally we have a break. yeah, we use that language. We have a break in the case because it means we've been pushing and trying and trying and nothing is everything. Has been a dead end. Look, I had a case, I think you and I talked about this, where I had a killer from 1972. We didn't take that guy. Well, we didn't identify that guy until 2019. From 1972 to 2019, my dad had that case first. It went cold under his, investigation. I reopened it and another 17 years passed before we were able to solve it. And I'll tell you, that's the kind of case where you feel like, of course, if you're going to spend that many years working something, when it first finally breaks, you're going to feel a sense of not just relief. As a matter of fact, when, when that case did break and they did the press release, all of the detectives who worked on that case in my dad's generation wanted to come to the press release and they came to the press conference and they wept. These are guys who are, you know, a generation before me in law enforcement, and I'm an old guy and these are tough guys. And, and. But just the relief of knowing that this thing that had been open and unsolved for all those years was finally closing.
Alex McFarland: justice was being served.
J. Warner Wallace: Exactly. That's. And I think a part of it is, you know, we're sad that it's. Most people think the cops aren't affected by working a bunch of murders, but of course they are. And especially when children are killed. Sure, that's the kind of thing that people will eventually cry about.
Alex McFarland: We're going to have to take a break. Alex McFarland here along with Jay Warner Wallace, best selling author, apologist. We're going to talk more about his books, Cold Case Christianity and so much more. And apologetics. Plus your calls. Stay tuned. The American Family Radio Network is back after this brief break.
J. Warner Wallace: Don't go away.
Abraham Hamilton III: A discipleship minute with Joseph Parker.
Our goal is to use our words every day to bless others and point them to Christ
Joseph Parker: Our, words are powerful, much more so than we as human beings typically understand. A saying that used to be popular years ago stated, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me. This is possibly one of the biggest lies you will ever hear. Words can hurt to an extreme degree, and people use them to hurt others every single day. Yet for us as believers, followers of Christ, our goal is to use our words every day to bless others and point them to Christ. Our words should bless others, promote healing in people's lives, grace and encouragement in the lives of those around us. We should habitually lift others up by our words. It is, in fact, relatively easy to bless others and encourage people with our words. If we Wisely and very deliberately seek to do so.
Abraham Hamilton III: Shining light into the darkness. This is the Hamilton Corner, American Family Radio.
Jim Wallace: Jesus claimed that he had the power to forgive sin
Alex McFarland: Welcome back to the program. You know, when I think of somebody like, Jim Wallace, I think of second Peter 1:16, which is one of my favorite passages. It says, regarding the gospel, we have not followed cleverly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And the gospel that Jesus, the son of God, incarnated himself, came to earth, and he was not only able, but willing to go to the cross to pay our sin debt. it's not a myth or a legend. And while we believe in Christ by faith, it is very much a faith corroborated by evidence, empirical data that can be looked at. And, you know, I say that because you may be listening and maybe you know about God or you know about Jesus even, but it's a relationship and it is real. And God doesn't ask you to take a step into the dark for some blind, baseless, irrational faith. No, it is a very reasoned, very real, very legitimate response to known evidence that God invites you to make. And I say that because listening live right now, or maybe if you stumble across this file a, ah, year from now, the gospel is real. Jim, you were talking about reading Mark. I remember I was a college student going to UNC Greensboro. And, I had been in a, like a world religions class. And, one of the professors had said, well, Jesus never claimed to really be God. He was a good teacher. He was a moral example. He was a role model. But I remember I was reading Mark and I had been, you know, in English and literature. And In Mark chapter 2, Jesus claimed that he had the power to forgive sin.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, right.
Alex McFarland: They lowered a man down through the roof. And I was like, now wait a minute. only God can forgive sin.
J. Warner Wallace: Right.
Alex McFarland: I think Jesus did see himself as God incarnate.
Abraham Hamilton III: Right.
J. Warner Wallace: I mean, think about how controversial that would be. So he comes down, right, and he's going to. He says, your sins are forgiven. No, hold on. All he could forgive, all any of us forgive, are those sins that are committed against us. So how many sins do you think this guy on the mat had committed against Jesus at that time? No, he's saying.
Alex McFarland: Not that we know of.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, he's saying, the sins you've committed against anyone. Well, there's no one who can do that. We can all forgive people for the things that have been done to us. But the only person that can forgive, the only being that can forgive you for things you've done to everybody would have to be God. Because every one of those sins that you committed against all of those humans, you actually committed against God. So God could forgive you of your sins in those other instances. And I think the people who heard this, that's the other thing too. I often will see people cite these instances out of context. Just look at the reaction that Jesus always gets when he says something like this. The people who heard this in the first century clearly interpreted it, it as just that. Who does this guy think he is to say when he calls himself the I am or says that he existed before Abraham? The hearers wanted to stone him for this statement. Why? Because he's saying something that they clearly interpreted as blasphemous. He's claiming to be God. You know, I think it's so funny there's a scene in John because, let's face it, Jesus often did not speak directly about this, but spoke in a way that would cause his hearers to have to come and ask for clarification. I don't know if you've ever seen. If you go through, I think it's Mark four, It's one of the first, if not the first public teaching ever of Jesus. It's the parable of, the sower. And he teaches it. And everyone's like, what in the world is he talking about? And even his own disciples come to him and say, what was that about? What was that teaching about? And he talks about how only those who have ears will hear and have eyes will see. And it's very interesting to me that he's saying things in such a way that people, in order to take the next step to understand what he's saying, have to come to him for clarification. It's as if he's fishing with parables and you've been caught. If you're like, hey, tell me more about that, tell me more. And some people didn't ask to be told more. And he was fishing with your interest in the parable at some point in John. I think it's in. It's in the later chapters of John. He's at the temple, and somebody says, come on, just tell us. Just be straight with us. Are you the Son of God? And he doesn't even. Again, he answers with a rather questioning, parabolic kind of statement. And I thought, isn't that interesting that Jesus spoke in a way that people knew when he did finally speak outright and use the great I am in John chapter eight, People knew what he was saying. They knew he was making a claim to deity. So, while a skeptic might say in this generation, well, Jesus never said he was God, clearly the people who were in the first century who heard him speak thought otherwise, and they were willing to kill him for that statement.
Alex McFarland: Yeah, I mean, seriously, like in the Gospel of Mark, and very often we refer to Mark because in general, even critical scholars, there's a term called Mark and priority.
J. Warner Wallace: Right.
Alex McFarland: That they, you know, even skeptics give at least a little bit of, nod to the Gospel of Mark. And if you read like Mark 14, 61, 63, they said, we demand, are you the son of the blessed One?
J. Warner Wallace: Yes.
Alex McFarland: And Jesus quotes two scriptures. He says, I am. Which Exodus 3:14. A pious Jew of the first century would not even vocalize that.
J. Warner Wallace: That's right.
Alex McFarland: And then he quotes Daniel and he refers to himself, son of man. Yeah. And they rip their clothes and. Yeah, we don't need. Why are they doing charges?
J. Warner Wallace: Exactly. You've now said enough to, warrant your execution. Now, that's just to me. So it's really in the context of this. I love the idea of Mark and Priority also. I hope we have time to go through.
Matthew's gospel seems to address many of the early heresies
I wanted to say something I thought was so interesting. So I do believe that, like many scholars today, although not, this has not always been the case, that there are this many scholars who would agree with Mark in priori that Mark was the first gospel. But I also believe Mark is the first gospel. And one of the things you'll see is that in the earliest century, or the earliest decades, I should say, of the Christian church, a number of heresies arose kind of simultaneously. And I thought, you know, why do these heresies, Aratocis and certain forms of Gnosticism, these are arising in the early church. Well, why is that happening? Well, largely because Mark's Gospel is so brief. I think Mark actually believed. We better get this out now because Jesus is going to come back and we need. And then, of course, John the brother of James is martyred in 44, or James, rather, the brother of John is martyred in 44 A.D. now I think you start to see these gospels being written. Now. What's interesting is all of those heresies, if you look and just look through Matthew to see if there are any verses that address the earliest heresies, you're going to find a bunch of Matthew actually addresses the early heresies. And then if you look for the parallel verses in the Gospel of Mark that are parallel to the gospel Of Matthew, you'll find there are none. It turns out many of those heresies occurred because Mark's gospel was so brief that the heresies were able to emerge. Matthew's gospel settles the issue. Matthew's gospel is robust enough. Things that actually happened but weren't mentioned by Mark, and it settled the issue for all of those early heretics. It's just another evidence to me that Matthew's gospel comes after Mark because it seems to address many of the heresies that sprang up in the first few decades that were really because there wasn't enough information. You know, does Jesus have. Is he a real human? Did he have a real body? Well, there's no birth narrative in Mark. Docetists could look at Mark and say, yeah, I think he's just all spirit. He has no human body. But you can't get that impression from Matthew because he's got several passages that really appear to be addressing the issue of docetism. And I think those things, of course, actually happened. But Mark's gospel is intentionally brief. It's kind of like when we are at a crime scene, a robbery occurs. We get on the radio. The first guy who gets there, he says, okay, it's a white male in a, Ford truck, yellow in color. That's all he says. Now all the cars in the area are looking for that white male in a yellow Ford truck. Now a few more minutes, he says, okay, he's wearing a white T shirt, blue jeans, he's got short black hair. Okay, now we got more detail. And when I finally get there, I'm taking a longer and longer report. So the earliest reports are brief because they are urgent. The later reports are more detailed because they are reflective. That's what you see in the progress of gospels from Mark to Matthew.
Alex McFarland: You know, the whole Bible, is the word of God. But for Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, these are like four biographies of Jesus. The New Testament, which is really kind of the second half of the Bible, begins with these four biographies. and they say in some time, in some instances, they say they report on the same things. Yes, but in other instances, they report on different things.
J. Warner Wallace: That's right.
Alex McFarland: you know, I remember as a college student, and you know, in many ways, I'm still 35 years in. I'm as excited. I'm m more excited than I was even. And I was on fire back then. I remember I had heard that Luke was a physician. And in the Gospel of Luke, when the Roman soldier pierces Jesus side with a spear, blood and water Came out and I remember, and I was reading in a Josh McDowell book. That's probably exactly what a physician would note, would notice.
J. Warner Wallace: Well, look at Matthew. Matthew was a tax collector. You would compare the number of times that Matthew. Matthew mentions either gold, silver, or copper or bronze, as a monetary, system. Or mentions numbers. Other people will describe an event, but never mention the number of people who are there. Who mentions all the numbers? The number guy.
Alex McFarland: The cpa.
J. Warner Wallace: Yeah, the number guy. M. Matthew. There's so much about Matthew's gospel. Also, you'll see amazing stories in Matthew's Gospel of people who were considered very vile, who are utterly transformed. Well, who was considered vile and was utterly transformed. That's Matthew.
Alex McFarland: The guys that work for the irs.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, exactly. So Matthew does kind of give himself away as the tax collector who Jesus meets in Matthew 9. it was originally called Levi. In all the other Gospels, he's called Levi and Luke and Mark. But the point is, what's great about Matthew is that just like Mark gives himself away as a friend of Peter, for example, you will not find many, all the stupid things that Peter says in the Gospels. And he says many silly things. He doesn't say them in Mark. Mark has the most flattering version of Peter's silliness. You know, Peter's going to get out of the boat when Jesus is walking on water, but he doesn't do that in Mark. In Mark, he stays in the boat. In Matthew, he gets out and he sinks. And he's scolded by Jesus. So little faith. Mark doesn't even mention he gets out of the boat. I mean, again, you'll see lots of little tells in each gospel that kind of give away the authorship.
Alex McFarland: Well, and these things that you get a cohesive picture of Jesus, but four different voices.
J. Warner Wallace: Yes.
Alex McFarland: as a, ah, detective, what does that say to you about the credibility of these four biographies?
J. Warner Wallace: Right.
There are differences between eyewitness accounts in the New Testament
Well, here's what we should talk about. We often think, okay, this is God's word, as God has inspired this. But of course, he allows the eyewitness to speak from their own mindset with their own language and their own context. and so eyewitnesses do this all the time. You may only be talking about the angel that is speaking to you. So it sounds like there's only one angel present. Another person will not even talk about what that one angel said, but will mention that there were two angels present. It does not mean there's a contradiction in the account. It means that each person who's writing is focusing on One thing, this is often the case in eyewitness accounts. I've never had a set of five or six eyewitnesses to anything who agreed entirely. They are going to disagree about a number of things. Often when they are put together as a puzzle, you see, oh, it's all the same account. There is no real disagreement. It's just that each person is focusing on one piece. The only thing I ask as a homicide detective in the middle of the night when you call me out, is have the officer on the scene separate the eyewitnesses. Because if you don't separate eyewitnesses, you're going to get one story five times. They're going to work out all the details. You're going to end up really kind of smoothing some things over that I don't want you to smooth over, because that's my job as the detective. God's word has been presented to us in a way that we can investigate it and to determine that it's reliable and have the most robust puzzle we could possibly have.
Alex McFarland: So the differences, they're not discrepancies, but they're nuances and differences. You're saying that adds credibility?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, this is what provoked me. So I bought my first Bible. It was a pew Bible. It was super small. It had very small margins.
Alex McFarland: Like a hardback?
J. Warner Wallace: Yes, the kind of $7. I wasn't going to spend a lot of six or seven dollars. I wasn't going to spend a lot of money for this, so I bought a Bible. I didn't own a Bible. It was a pew Bible at like, like Pickwick B. Dalton Pickwick, all the old bookstores. So I buy this Bible, bring it home, and I'm reading through the Gospels just to see what's so smart about Jesus. This pastor said Jesus was smart. So I'm reading through the Gospels and I'm going, ah, look at how different this guy. This has got to be the same event he's describing as the other author. So why is this guy's description different? And I started to see this over and over and over and over again. Well, that's exactly what you see when you open up an old casebook where you've got five supplemental reports that were written by detectives who had interviewed eyewitnesses. Just like Luke says, he is interviewing the eyewitnesses and the servants of the word, and they write these reports and there's these variations between these. Now, often you're lucky enough to have witnesses who are still alive. And you can go and you can Ask them additional questions. But often in cold cases, these people are dead now, and I can't go back out and ask additional questions to clarify what they really saw. That's much like what we're doing here with the gospels right now. If God intended to deliver to us 4 true, reliable eyewitness accounts that were written in such a way that we could test them as eyewitness accounts, he did an excellent job, because that's what we have. And I think that was God's intention. It's not as though. Because, by the way, if you had four accounts that were exactly the same, you would need just one account. You need all four. And the earliest eyewitnesses knew as they were assembling this, as they were writing it, that they had slightly different variations of their account. It didn't stop them from writing it. And the first people who assembled the New Testament didn't try to redact out all the things that seemed to be different. No, they left that stuff in there because that's what eyewitnesses do. They talk that way, they report that way, and they allow us to test them that way.
J. Warner Wallace: Peter makes many mistakes in Mark's Gospel
Alex McFarland: You know, you were talking about Peter, and Mark perhaps working together, on this, Yeah, I love. In Mark 16, verse seven, when the angel at the tomb says, I know that you seek Jesus, he not here. He's risen. Go tell his disciples. And Peter. Now, the last time we saw Peter, he was denying the Lord. And let me just say we serve the God of the 2nd and 3rd and 50th chance.
J. Warner Wallace: Right?
Alex McFarland: Isn't that so sweet that. Hey, don't forget Peter. Well, and why I'm not through with him.
J. Warner Wallace: Exactly. Of course, he makes the biggest mistake. But isn't it interesting that, the author who is listening to. To Peter preach in Rome and is now writing basically the memoirs of Peter, and he's not writing them as necessarily a historical chronicle. He's writing them in themes. Because Peter is preaching in Rome. For example, how many times does Peter say something silly? It's in all the gospels. Well, only in Mark's Gospel, you see, Mark write it this way. Peter says this silly thing, and all the other disciples agreed. You see, that little ad, that little added part of the sentence in Mark's Gospel, because it's not just Peter. It's not just Peter who's a fool here. Everybody else felt the same way. That's what Mark does for Peter over and over and over again.
Alex McFarland: Wow. Well, folks, this is J. Warner Wallace. When we come back, we're going to get some questions. The number 885-898-840. That's 888-589-8840 toll free nationwide. If you have some apologetics questions, Bible questions, we'll be honored to hear from you. Jim, Wallace and myself will do our best to give you a factual answer. This is the Hamilton Corner on the American Family radio network. Alex McFarland, so glad you're listening. Stay tuned. A brief break and then we return.
55% of American adults say assassinating Donald Trump would be justified
Abraham Hamilton III: In a recent survey of 1,200 left of center American adults, 55% responded that assassinating Donald Trump could be justified. We're swimming in shark infested cultural waters. Some are suffering from Christianophobia. Jesus said, if they persecuted me, they'll also persecute you. Please give today to help AFA keep equipping you and others to stand for Christ. Help us shine his light into our dark culture. Visit afa.netwarier all right, Sandy Rios with you.
J. Warner Wallace: One more drama playing out. Is the sky falling? Are we going into recession? Are you gonna lose all of your 401k? Are you gonna lose your job? Are you gonna be able to afford groceries?
Caroline: People better be training their kids, getting back into church, Sunday school, reading the Bible. That revolution will save this country.
J. Warner Wallace: We've had a political revolution, now we need a spiritual revolution.
Abraham Hamilton III: Sandy rios on Sandy Rios 247 listen on the podcast page at afr.net the Hamilton Quarter podcast and one minute commentaries are available at afr.net, back to the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.
Alex McFarland speaks with J. Warner Wallace about Christian apologetics
Alex McFarland: Hey, welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here. We're going to resume our conversation with J. Warner Wallace, cold case detective and defender of Christianity. And we are going to take calls. I see calls coming up. The number if you have a Bible question, an apologetics question, maybe you're a skeptic yourself. hey, let's have a respectful dialogue here. Maybe if you, you think all this, this God stuff is just, just ah, not real. Call us 888-589-8840. I do want to mention, coming up, August 21st, Charlie Kirk and I will be in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina at the Alabama Theater. It's a big theater. But listen, our friend Charlie Kirk of Turning Point usa, he's a great Christian brother and just an incredible political voice. He and I have shared the stage a few times and, he's joining, Fox and Friends morning show. So this will be one of the last times to get him live for a while. And there will be Open mic, Q and A, Charlie Kirk, the website alexmcfarland.com conversations part of our series Conversations that Matter. And Jim, I've got to ask, what is your most recent book?
J. Warner Wallace: Truth and True Crime. Well, actually, I've got a graphic novel of my son called Case Files for anyone who likes big fat comic books.
Alex McFarland: hey, graphic novels. Young people, man, they read this,
J. Warner Wallace: Well, and we tried to do one that would actually have a kind of an embedded message that's an apology Christian apologetics message. But it really is a serial killer on the loose kind of a comic book. So I hope this and people enjoy it. your website is coldcase christianity.com cold.
Alex McFarland: Case coldcasechristianity.com for the person who's maybe just kind of dipping their toe in the water of apologetics, which of your books or books do you recommend?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, the book that kind of started the whole thing for us was Cold Case Christianity. And I think that's still an accessible book. We've re illustrated it. You got over 300 illustrations. So I think it's a pretty quick and it's a deep, it's a deep dive that is accessible, let's put it that way. For people who are interested in investing in the New Testament.
Alex McFarland: Spelled just like it sounds. Cold case Christianity.com and we're going to go to some calls. We're going to start in, I believe it's Kentucky Brandon in Kentucky. Brandon, thanks for holding. Welcome to the program.
Caroline: Hey, thank you very much.
Jim Rider: Matthew 19: 16-17 is a fascinating passage
what caught my ear especially is, when you said about reading the Bible forensically, I love that term, about reading God's word and digging into it and getting gold, I like to call it, like getting the gold nuggets of God's word. And I was particular and talking about, Christ claim. People who think that Christ never claimed that he was God. And one of them that had caught my attention before, and I'd read over it before and I never really thought about it, but, to Matthew, chapter, 19, verses 16, 17, when Christ, addressed the rich young young ruler. And the rich young ruler said, you know, called, him good teacher.
Caroline: And Christ said, but why do you call me good? No one is good but one that is God. And it hit me and I can just see the Lord looking at him and saying, why do you call me good? No one is good but God. And it's almost like the Lord Jesus gave that rich young ruler just a pause for a moment and like, think about what you just called me. You know, Good teacher. No one is good but God. Do you. Do you really understand? Think about what you just called me. Because there's no one good but God.
Alex McFarland: Brandon, let me jump in on this. Let me throw it to Jim. okay. This is a fascinating passage. Matthew 19, 16, 17. Okay, good master. And Jesus says, why do you call me good? There is no one good but God. Jim, what was the Lord trying to get across there?
J. Warner Wallace: Well, there's a couple of ways this has kind of been traditional interpreted. I favor one probably more than the other. there is a sense in which the question is, good teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life? Now, why is he calling him a good teacher? And then why does Jesus then say, well, there's only one who is good, or there's only God is good? Well, there's almost a sense, I think, in which Jesus knows that. Who would know the path to eternal life better than the God of eternal life? And it's almost like you're saying, when you're coming to me with this question, it almost seems as though you already know the answer, because do you know who you are talking to? The, insightful way that Jesus responds to me is even bigger because what Jesus does is he kind of runs down the number of, commands, the commands of the ten commandments that he knows this young man can fulfill. And he leaves out the ones that he knows he doesn't fulfill. I think that's so fascinating because if I was to come to Jesus and say, ask the same question, he might list a different number of commandments that he knows I have no problem with.
Alex McFarland: But Jesus knows that's right.
J. Warner Wallace: He knows the which commandments would be the ones that this young man is keeping him from eternal life, the ones that he would have to submit to God. And so, of course, m. He mentions this stuff, but he leaves out anything about covetousness. He leaves out anything that really is in the lane that this young man is struggling with. What's so fascinating to me is that he's almost saying to this young man, it sounds like, you know who I am, don't you? And I'm going to show you that you're right, because I know where you struggle. And that, to me, is fascinating only because I think if it was you or me, he might leave out different commands for us because he knows where you and I struggle. But there are a couple of classic kind of traditional ways that that sentence has been interpreted by people over the years. I just like this idea. I think it's actually sound that he's asking the question almost rhetorically. Why are you asking me about what is good?
Alex McFarland: But one thing Jesus was not doing, he was not denying his deity, was he?
J. Warner Wallace: Oh, not at all. No, not as a matter of fact. That's why I think this is. And he just puts that deity on display when he leaves out the very commands that he knows this. There's no sense in this that Jesus knows this young man. This young man comes out of the cold and says he asked this question. And Jesus seems to know where this guy is struggling. how does he know that? Because of course, he is the rider of these laws. He knows all of our hearts. He knows the heart of this young man. So not only does he ask the question back. Why are you calling me good?
J. Warner Wallace: Do you know only one is good. Only God is good. Why are you. You're calling me God? And then he says to him the very thing that only God would know. So I think there's a sense in which he's kind of asking the question and answering it in the same statement.
Alex McFarland: The voice you're hearing is J. Warner Wallace. We're going to go to Arkansas. is it Terra Lisa? Am I pronouncing your name correct? Tera. Lisa. Thanks for holding. What is your question?
Caroline: once we become a Christian, should we sin? After we become a Christian?
Alex McFarland: Okay, we're gonna get the answer. Once we become a Christian, should we sin?
J. Warner Wallace: Should we sin? Okay, you mean. I mean, are you asking the question? Well, of course we shouldn't sin. Yes, but you're asking, once we become a Christian, are we going to sin again?
Alex McFarland: Sarah, Lisa, like, if we're a Christian, do we ever still sin? Yes.
J. Warner Wallace: Right. Okay, so.
The process of sanctification involves a long, crooked hallway
So here's my, the formula that I like to offer. It's a classic kind of reform formula. So what happens is there's a moment in time when you are justified and you are removed from the penalty of sin. And then there's that period of time when you're sanctified, you're removed from the overriding power of sin. And then there's that moment in time when you are glorified before God and you are removed from the presence of sin. Okay, well, that first point in which you become a Christian, that's a door that you walk through. It just is. It happens the moment you trust Christ as your savior, knowing that only he can forgive your sins. You admit that you're a sinner and you ask Jesus that you accept what he paid on the cross for that price he paid for your sin. That happens in a moment you decide to accept Christ as your Savior. That's a door you walk through. Also the moment you're glorified. That's also a door you walk through. It happens the moment you close your eyes for the last time and you're in the presence of a holy God and you are removed forever from the presence of sin. But that thing in the middle called sanctification is not a doorway. That is a long, crooked hallway with lots of ramps and bumps and bruises and. And crooked corners and sharp corners. And you're going to take two steps forward and one step back and you're going to bump into things, because that's what happens as we walk down the path from justification to glorification. That process of sanctification has all kinds of trips and falls and great victories and sad defeats. And this is going to happen. This is what God does to shape us over time. We often think, well, I should be able to walk through one door and right into the next. Let me tell you, the only straight hallway you're going to see is in people like the thief on the cross, who in one moment accepts Christ as Savior and the next moment is dead. His hallway is super short, okay? And it's pretty straight. But for those of us who might spend 30 years post being saved but not yet glorified, our hallways are going to be a lot more crooked, a lot more dangerous, filled with all kinds of ups and downs. Are you going to make mistakes in that period? Paul says it. He says, there's one aspect of the human condition I am certain. It's that I cannot do what I know I should do, and I continue to do what I know I shouldn't. Paul. Paul. Do you think he was saved when he wrote that? Of course he was, but he's in the hallway now, the long hallway of sanctification, and he's experiencing the hallway as it is. So if you're in that hallway and you're wondering, why, why do I sin? I shouldn't sin, should I? That just demonstrates you're already in the hallway. You've already walked through the first door. The spirit of God now is in that tug of war with your natural spirit, trying to guide you down the hallway. The fact that you're concerned about it is demonstrating the fact that the spirit of God has now got the hands on the wheel, and he's trying to tell you, let go. Let me drive this. And that's what the hallway does to us. So I would say, just, just, just know that this is a life of mistakes, of ups and downs. And that's exactly how it was designed to be.
Alex McFarland: Let's go to Oklahoma. Dorothy in Oklahoma. Thanks for holding.
J. Warner Wallace answers your question about the biblical Sabbath
Welcome to our conversation with J. Warner Wallace.
Caroline: Thank you for taking my call. This is in regards to the biblical Sabbath. I have read the Bible in Genesis, chapter two, starting at, verse two. The Bible says that on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made. And he rested on the seventh day from all the work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified, because that in it he had rested from all his work which he had created in May. And then, I go over to the Ten Commandments, and, in Exodus 20, verses 8 through 11, he tells us to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy.
Alex McFarland: Right.
Caroline: Six days we shall work and do all thy work, and that the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. So, God.
Alex McFarland: And you're wondering, like, why do we worship on Sunday?
Caroline: God doesn't have two Sabbaths. So, you know, why is there such confusion?
Alex McFarland: Hey, let me jump in, Dorothy. Thank you. This is a great question. And let me say that we don't say that Sunday is the Sabbath day now, like in Mark 16:2, and I'll throw it to Jim here in a second. This is very, very early in the morning on the first day of the week. Do you know the earliest Christians? and one of the things that we talk about are some of the, accounts of people that were not friends of the church. Like there was, Pliny, that was a Roman writer, and he says early on Sunday, the first day of the week, the Christians get up before daybreak to sing hymns to Christ as God. So, Jim, we get this question a lot. Yeah, we're not saying that the Sabbath was changed or anything like that. We are saying that really from within weeks after the cross, Christians were worshiping on Sunday, because that was Resurrection day, wasn't it?
J. Warner Wallace: Right. The earliest record we have of Christians who, practiced and who, met regularly after the ascension of Jesus is recorded in the Book of Acts. But you also see it, you know, in scripture, the day of the resurrection, the first day of the week is the day of the week that the earliest Christians met. Now, it's interesting to me because that is in God's word. And so, there's a sense in which I see no directive in God's word that tells the earliest Christians, no, no, no, stop doing that. Get back on Saturday. Saturday is the day of worship, Saturday, is the day we must leave it holy for the Lord. Instead, what we're simply doing as Christians is following the earliest habits and traits the same way we would look at anything in the Book of Acts and say, yeah, if they did it there, we should take that seriously. We should do it also. And so you'll see that the earliest Christians having contact with the eyewitnesses were meeting on the first day of the week. And I think because that wasn't scolded out of them by the earliest eyewitnesses of the Resurrection, that's good enough for me. I will also follow that same pattern.
Alex McFarland: We're going to try to get another call in. this is Mary in Louisiana. Mary, thanks for hosting it.
Caroline: Yeah. Can you hear me?
Alex McFarland: We can, yes. Thank you.
In Second Corinthians it says, be aware of Satan devices
Caroline: I just wanted to make a comment because I heard you earlier talking about investigation discovery, and I think you had used to. Was a detective or whatever, but. Yes, in Second Corinthians it says, be aware of Satan devices. What I wanted to say is I watched those shows, the Cold Case and all of that, and I'm going like, what women need to know and, and men too, that you got to be aware.
Alex McFarland: You need to forgive me. We're almost out of time. Forgive me. almost out of time. It says, be, aware of Satan's devices. Hey, you know, let me just say this. Even though we might get saved, we've come to Christ. The devil doesn't necessarily just leave us alone, does.
J. Warner Wallace: No, as a matter of fact, when you're just on the precipice of what some of the biggest advances you're going to make in your faith walk, that is typically when you're going to be assaulted by the wise and kind of wily devices of. Of Satan. So I'm always, aware when I'm getting ready to do something like a radio show like this, probably before I sit down to do it, I'm going to be. Something's going to happen because God, Satan does not want us to do what grows the kingdom of God.
Alex McFarland: Well, thanks for listening, folks. God bless you and tell somebody about Jesus. Thanks, Jim Wallace.
J. Warner Wallace: Thank you. The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Guest Host, Alex McFarland, is joined by American homicide detective, J. Warner Wallace
https://coldcasechristianity.com/
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