Transcript

Hamilton: God called believers to be ambassadors even in this dark moment

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Darkness is not an affirmative force. It simply reoccupies the space vacated by the light.

>> Abraham Hamilton III: This is the, Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: It should be uncomfortable for a believer to live as a hypocrite, delivering people.

>> Abraham Hamilton III: Out of the bondage of mainstream media and the philosophies of this world.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: God has called you and me to be his ambassadors even in this dark moment. Let's not miss our moment.

Chad Hamilton welcomes Dr. Drew Dickens to talk about artificial intelligence and spirituality

>> Abraham Hamilton III: And now, the Hamilton Corner.

>> Alex McFarland: Well, goody pastor and journalist Abe Hamilton iii. Very honored, for the times that I get to sit in. If you, recognize my voice. It's probably from a show called Exploring the Word and I've got the privilege. Monday, through Friday, we have a live Bible teaching and call in question program exploring the Word. But when Abe is traveling or, you know, out of the office, sometimes I get to sit in for him. And this is one those days. And this is a program I've looked forward to for a long time because we have a very, very special guest to talk about one of the most commonly asked questions on Exploring the Word. People call and ask about the rise of AI and so we're going to talk for this show about artificial intelligence. is it good or bad? Is there a digital war being waged for our souls? And so we're very privileged to have an expert on the subject, Dr. Drew Dick, holds a doctorate in theological anthropology from Southern Methodist and a master's from dts. Just one of the most respected, theological schools in the world. Dallas Seminary. And his doctoral research was a study of the impact of generative artificial intelligence on the field of spiritual direction and spiritual inquiry. And very privileged this most relevant of subjects. Very privileged to get to know this colleague and hear from him today on AI and spirituality. Dr. Drew Dickens. Thank you and welcome to the American Family Radio Network.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Alex, big fan of the network and what an honor and privilege is to, to be with you guys.

>> Alex McFarland: Well, it's great to be with you and I look forward to hearing about your research and your insights. But you know, before the show, you and I were talking, off air and just getting acquainted and I kind of feel like I've, I've known you a long time, like I made a new friend. But, tell us about your journey and your, background and how God brought you to where you are in your life and ministry at this point.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Absolutely. yeah, and, and likewise, it's like we met in junior high or something. He just kind of getting reacquainted. Follower of Christ Cleverly disguised as a husband but one wife and coming up on 40. Ah that's impossible. 40, 43 years. congratulations at Baylor. Thank you very much. cleverly disguised as a dad, two grown sons. and my proudest accomplishment is a granddad. So I'm pop to two amazing grandsons and have the privilege of living here in in Dallas with them nearby. And so that's a, that's a real joy. Came to Christ. Became aware of God's calling in my life. Sixth grade at a Billy Graham crusade and went there with my, with my Cub Scout pack just to see the inside of Texas Stadium. Had no idea who Billy Graham was. I just had never seen Astroturf. So we went and went down on the 20 yard line and, and gave my life to the Lord and freaked out my parents who had no idea about how to disciple that and so just started pouring into everything I could read and get my hands on. And I went into full time vocational ministry 20 some odd years ago with a ministry called need him that I launched. it's an evangelism response ministry with the Billy Graham Organization and Campus Crusade and a bunch of others. And then joined up with a prayer app called abide 10 years ago and helped that get started and that was a blast. A bunch of 20 year old PhDs from Stanford that are all engineers at Google wanted to do something for the kingdom and so got to be a part of. Needed an old man with a seminary degree and and so about six years ago started Encounter which is a daily meditation on a verse of the day with the, with the U version Bible app and who just celebrated a billion downloads this weekend, this past weekend. Ah and then AI and spirituality has been a. Technologies been a fascination of mine. The crossroads of theology and technology at seminary kept writing on that and then four or five years ago decided to pursue a doctorate and AI was well it's been around since World War II but Chad GPT hadn't even launched so it was tough to get a return phone call. But now everybody wants to be on their podcast so it's. The timing is fantastic.

Could technological advancements be harnessed for the power of the gospel

So a little about a little about my my journey.

>> Alex McFarland: you know isn't it true that very often great moves of God revivals, awakenings run parallel to technological breakthroughs. You know I think about you know printing and the Gutenberg Bible and not too long thereafter came the Protestant Reformation. And, you mentioned going to a Billy Graham event. And you know, Billy Graham was one of the first to really harness the power of television. And absolutely, we, we're living. I mean, every day's news cycle is populated by articles about Nvidia and AI and could it be, you know, for all the, you know, draconian warnings we've heard about, you know, computers are bad and things like that, could, could it be that the, the technological advancements of this moment might, be harnessed for the power of the gospel? And I mean, I know this, I'll say this and then I will throw it to you. We, have listeners on American Family Radio, our program exploring the Word. We have gotten much mail from Saudi Arabia, from places that missionaries, might not necessarily go. And so I actually think, you know, the World Wide Web and possibly AI is going to be used by God for the fulfillment of the Great Commission. But, but what do you say? The, the breakthroughs of technology and spiritual awakenings, are they in any way related?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Absolutely. And of course it's to the glory of God. He. He, he, Everything exists for his glory. So. And don't, and let's don't end in our time together today without talking about the benefits, and, and, and how God will be, I believe, glorified, through this. It's easy to go dark and dystopian fairly quickly in the conversations. A lot of the news cycles that you mentioned, have a clickbait element to it. I'm much more likely to, to click on an article about robots taking over, whatever, than I am some of the benefits. But, let's please carve out some time that we can talk about that. because I agree with you 100. I think, though this is different. A lot of, when I was in seminary was writing about our relationship with technology as people of faith over time. Not to get too much in the wood in the weeds, but, you know, you can even go back to, the Urim and the Thummim devices that the prophets used, you know, in the ancient of times to inquire of God. We look at in the NewSong Testament even casting a lot, right. So we're, we're always wanting to engage with some kind of inanimate object to draw closer to, divine encounter. so that this isn't new. I think this technology, though, this major, technological shift that I believe we are in the midst of right now, because they've all rewritten culture. Absolutely. You were Point on in mentioning Gutenberg, and early advances in radio. Some of the first radio programs were preachers, and Billy Graham on TV and the, and, and the Internet. But AI is, I think, different. it aims to, as opposed to earlier technologies, it, it aims to imitate the human soul. and, and imitate is even within the name artificial intelligence. So it, it's all about imitation. and I think that's different. I don't think we engage with the printing press, we engage with casting of lots. and, and, and don't. And are able to differentiate that from who we are as humans. AI is different. AI is, artificial general intelligence, artificial super intelligence are, are levels yet to come. but I think what's different about AI is its ability to imitate, who we are. And that should wake up every Christian right?

Generative AI is a form of AI that generates content

>> Alex McFarland: Now, let me ask you this, Dr. Dickens. You, you wrote a dissertation on. Oh, thank you. Generative artificial. Now what does that mean? Help us understand what what, what is AI and what is generative AI?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Well, generative is in the name GPT, which everybody's familiar with. Chad. GPT. So, GPT stands for Generative Retrained Transformer. And so generative simply enough is, is. Is a form of AI that generates content. So it, you know, I can go into chat GPT, I can go into any context window on, on any, you know, language model and type a question as you do in a Google context window. type in a question and it generates a response. Or I can ask it to hey, draw me a picture of a cat and it will generate an image of a cat. So generative AI, is just that, it generates content. M. we can talk about whether it's original content or not. but it generates something. It can generate some text or a picture or music or wherever your mind can take you. There's the next phase. If you feel like I missed the boat on AI, that ship has sailed. I've missed the wave. Well, the next wave past generative AI is agentic AI and just take the word agent and put IC on the end of it. So it's agent driven agentic AI, and that takes generative AI to the next level. So instead the example I use is, you know, it's my Well, a timely example, is it's Christmas coming up. could you generate a list of some ideas for gifts that I might give my wife? bum done. That's easy. So it will generate A list agentic. AI will actually go out, find the best, it will read my wife's Instagram feed, it will make the decision on which gift is best to get her. It'll find those gifts on Amazon, choose the most efficient or the cheapest one and then ping my credit card. So an agent is like a travel agent if you will, that will go out and yes it will book an airline, but it will also book your rental car, your cruise package, everything kind of for you. So that's agentic. I would be kind of the next wave of AI from there.

>> Alex McFarland: So, let me figure out how to ask this. chat, GPT and the platforms, they perform tasks when asked to do. So, you know, we could go on and say, you know, please, you know, give me the world's greatest chocolate chip cookie recipe. And it would regurgitate and give that.

Are you aware that AI is voluntarily generating content on its own

To what degree Are you aware that AI is voluntarily generating content on its own without having been asked by a human being?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Currently, when you say, am I aware of, right now I think we're limited by. That's not. These conversations get outdated so quickly. So as of today at this moment, there are community, guidelines or limitations with technology, where autonomy, which would be the, the, the word I think we're looking for, autonomous direction within AI is fairly limited. you can look at examples of like autonomous driving or self driving cars, Teslas and whatnot, will make decisions on our behalf. it might change lanes, when I wouldn't think to do so. so there is some autonomy that we're seeing within, within AI? Certainly. Will there be more? Absolutely. again you're seeing some of that as I just described with agentic.

>> Alex McFarland: Are these firewalls or protocols built in to prevent like for instance, what if AI said gee, I'm going to cut the power to all of America's hospitals? I mean what, what prevents. We've got a break. This is fascinating stuff, Dr. Dickens. we're going to come back and talk more folks, but what is your website? Before this first commercial, what's your website?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: The best way to find me is Drew Dickens. Drew like a picture Dickens. Like Charles Drew Dickens. Dot com. Wow.

>> Alex McFarland: Folks, Alex McFarland here with Dr. Drew Dickens. We're talking about AI. It is a part of your life, you know. Stay tuned folks. We're going to come back with more after this brief break on the American Family Radio Network. Don't go away.

>> Jeff Chamblee: HGTV has changed over the years. And not necessarily for the better. The seemingly wholesome home and garden television has decided it would be clever and funny to hint at an expletive in the title of one of its newest shows. The alternative spelling is so poor that children can still read it and repeat it. Obviously I won't say it here, but you can go to onemillion moms.com to find out more and urge HGTV to rename the show 1Million Moms.com.

>> Abraham Hamilton III: Shining light into the darkness.

This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio

This is the Hamilton Corner on American Family Radio.

>> Alex McFarland: Welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here, thoroughly enjoying learning from Dr. Drew Dickens and honest, I promise folks, we are two human beings. The, the voices you are listening to are actually human beings talking. and, and you'll concur, Dr. Dickens, right?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Let me check. Yep. Yes I am.

>> Alex McFarland: Okay. but you know, I, I say that in jest, but before the break we were talking about what AI can voluntarily decide to do and generate.

Is AI capable of malevolence? I would think so

And I want to pick that back up. And you know, I asked the question, I mean what, what's to stop AI from, you know, turning off the electricity to America's hospitals or, or something malevolent. Is AI capable of malevolence?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: I would think so, yes. it's not neutral technology. and as it continues to evolve, that's a word I can use there. you know, it's, it's being trained on the entirety of human knowledge. So it's read every book on malevolence, it's read every book on, on, on manipulation. So yes, absolutely, it's capable of that. there was an interesting thought experiment going back 20 or 30 years now, not specifically about AI at the time, but Nick Bostrom, who's a Swedish philosopher, came up with what's now called the Paperclip experiment. your listeners can Google just Paperclip experiment. And it's, it's frightening, fascinating. But the scenario is that give, let's say an AI model a task just as I mentioned a moment ago, pick out some Christmas present ideas. This one was a little more again malevolent. It was give or it became. So it was ah, design a system, a manufacturing system that would maximize the number of paper clips that a company would be able to produce. And then it just let it run, if you just let it run with no barriers, constraints to it. And it was fascinating how quickly it started coming to it, this AI platform, if you would, comes to the conclusion that one of the biggest barriers to advancement is energy resources. So I've got limited supply of metal that I can use, but I've also got limited supply of power. And so one of the things that you start thinking through is does it start shutting down what it perceives as irrelevant, manufacturing processes? So could it shut down the power to a hospital? Let's say it was your example, and it would. It would begin to make those decisions in order to achieve its goal. So two. Two important words there are, you know, goal assignments and alignment. is AI aligned with human flourishing? and if so, it wouldn't shut off a. Shut off a hospital. and is its goal clearly defined? So you mentioned, I mentioned, looking for Christmas lists. you know, you mentioned chocolate chip cookie recipes. Is. We need to be very specific.

>> Alex McFarland: You can tell where my priorities are.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Exactly. I'm concerned about my wife's, you know, flourishing over. Over, the holidays. And you're. You're all about dessert. But so is it. Is it. Is it. Is it. Does it have a clearly designed assigned task and is it aligned with human flourishing? So long answer. But yes, it can get malevolent. Malevolent. But we need to, keep in mind that. That as we program it, that it's aligned with what is best for humanity. and keep those goals very targeted.

Is AI self? Aware? Will it become sentient? Great question

>> Alex McFarland: Is AI self? Aware?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Great question. And you mentioned AI is one of your, most frequently asked, questions. Mine is, is it self aware? Is it sentient? Will it become sentient? the grandfather, of. Of, of. Of AI Claims that it is becoming self aware. I think one of the things that's missing in. In awareness or sentience is an awareness of life experience. So, as it begins to, And each of the language models now are doing this, as it begins to, keep, historic logs of conversations, it can. Well, I do air quotes a lot in these conversations, but it can draw on what it might perceive as a life experience with me. So I've noticed in some of the language models that I use, and I use them all, it might begin a conversation with, hey, Drew, how are the grandkids today? so it's. It's. It's. It's. It's developing some awareness of our relationship, if you will. but Jeffrey Hinton, who's the. The grandfather of neural networks and, early stage AI, is alive and flourishing and doing quite well. But he. He believes it will become sentient. I think the better question though, is not whether it will become self aware, but will we engage with it as though it is as I think far more profound and relevant question. It will it. Is it sentient or will we act with it as though it is? And I think that's a clear yes, we're already seeing that. and on, on how people are engaging with it.

>> Alex McFarland: Sure, sure. And you know, we do summer camps for youth, Biblical worldview camps we have for 27 years. And I got to tell you, one of the hardest things, but we talk to the parents and the you know, grandparents up front and we say at our summer camps, we don't allow the kids to have their mobile devices with them because we're trying to go horseback riding and hiking in the mountains and then have Bible study and do you know, the first 48 hours, you know, there are kids at our camps that I mean it is like withdrawal, like an addict getting off of a drug. It's a beautiful thing to see though. By 3, 4, 5 days of Christian camp, you know, the cries for the cell phones are, are gone because. And it's, it's almost like, And I'm as guilty as anybody. I mean I'm always on the computer, I'm always writing or emailing or whatever. you know, we are addicted to technology, aren't we? Yeah, and absolutely. You know, as a Christian, you know, one of the things that we are supposed to be very careful stewards of, well, two things, time and our mind, aren't we? as a Christian, because time is a non recoverable resource. I mean if you lose money, you can get more money, but wasted and lost time can't be recovered. And also what goes into our minds, to what degree are you concerned about even technology addiction among believers?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Yeah, very much so. I, I applaud you for having a technology Sabbath, during your retreats and during your summer camps. it's one of the things that I always you know, advise when I meet, speaking with a group seminary, or a church or whatever to, to do that. I was just having lunch yesterday with a friend of mine who did his doctoral work on ah, even how we engage in scripture with a printed Bible versus reading it on our phone. and you know, he was able to fascinating research about how we tend to integrate it into our, into our, into our daily walk if we're holding it in our hand, not by the phone by the way, but, but the printed pages.

>> Alex McFarland: I'm sure you forgive me. I'm sure you probably know this but 20 years ago there were studies done about assimilation, recall. And when we read from a book, you know, the printed page, maybe it's the, the haptics of, of touching the paper and handling.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Correct.

>> Alex McFarland: But assimilation and recall are stronger when we read from a book book rather than a screen. But.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: And that's what, and that's what he was able to determine as well.

Alex McFarland: 2025, AI will become invisible

But, but, but I'll leave you though. Not leave you, but I'll give you this quote which was, I thought was fascinating. It was about a year ago, in the, Wall Street Journal, there's an article that had quote that I think the headline was in 2025. This was again last year, 2025, AI will become invisible. And I think that the clickbait aspect was. Is it going to go away? But the intent of the title was it would become ubiquitous that it's not just a phone anymore. and so it's so hard now to different. You know, I get. People quite often will tell me I'm just not on AI. I don't do AI. Well, we all do every day. The minute you turn on Netflix and suggested movies or suggested friends on Facebook, you know, we're. Or just the content we're reading that we don't realize is AI generated. So ship has sailed. We are all, we're all using AI, open AI. In fact, Sam Altman just partnered with Johnny Ivey, who is the, the, the. The product designer for Apple for. For many, many years. He, he's one that would design the iPhone and the, the u. The, the interface of it and the physical aspect of. He's designing now an AI device. We have no clue what that is. I don't know if it's something you wear. Maybe it's a neck. I don't know. in fact, just this week, I believe, Elon Musk said that next year the phone will become a speaker for AI, not just a phone. So you know, even, even saying to put your phone away doesn't, won't necessarily separate us from the effects and the impact and the engagement, the relationship, that, that I think we'll be drawn to with, with AI. so it's again, One of the, one of the other frightening aspects of AI is the relational aspect to it. again, OpenAI just announced two weeks ago that they're going to start lowering the bar on on erotica, on erotic, content. And so now with porn you just look at pictures, but now with AI, you're Able to, to. To talk to it. and, and what that does to, you know, your soul when you. We're we're designed to be in relationship. That's what the Trinity represents to us. and so we're going to be drawn to I think that aspect of AI which will be even, I think more dangerous than just walking around with a phone. So I can check scores or the Latest, you know, TikTok video or whatever. Now I'll actually be able to have a relationship with this entity.

>> Alex McFarland: for those just tuning in, Alex McFarland here. We're talking with Dr. Drew Dickens about the overlap of AI and spirituality. And it is, it is ubiquitous. I've told people as well that look, if you've ever been through like a logic tree on a phone, you know, if you want this, press one. If you need this department, press two.

Alex McFarland: Can demons interact with hardware? I.I. can

I mean we've all interacted with A.I. so I'm going to ask the question that I've pondered for a while. and this is. It might sound weird, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: I'm ready.

>> Alex McFarland: Can demons interact with hardware?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: I. I would think obviously yes. God, All things are created by him and for Him. So with his allowance I, I would, I would say, you know, absolutely. We're not to be a people of fear, either. so you know, can And what we all know the scripture about, you know, what the world might mean for evil. and so we I think we need to be. Discerning is a word I use a lot. Discerning when we're using it. because most definitely, we can, There. There's so many amazing opportunities that this represents. for us to see the kingdom advance, for us to grow deeper in our walk with the Lord for Him to be able to use this tool. AI certainly didn't surprise him. He saw this coming. So it's not like he was like, well look at this technology. so this is by no means a surprise. can. Can demons use printed material? Absolutely. And so can the, can the printing press be used for evil? Can radio? Can television? Absolutely. can technology. So, so yes it can. Yes, of course it can. but likewise it can be used, for God's glory, but.

>> Alex McFarland: Amen.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: But again with, with his allowance. it can be, it can be used for, for good and, and bad. But we need to be discerning. And I think that's one of the things that's so tempting about AI A line I toss out quite a bit is AI is incapable of not answering. So we need to be discerning when we ask these questions. you know, what's, what's the best chocolate chip cookie recipe? Instead of just, taking, that recipe and putting it together, you know, you should pause and look at the ingredients. Is the ingredients include me throwing in, you know, mixing gasoline with the, you know, whatever. so, you know, let's, let's be discerning for a moment. and we, we need to do that. Even with scripture and commentaries that we read, programs we listen to on the radio, we need to be discerning, you know, what am I listening to? What, what are, what are their worldviews and beliefs? So, but it's, you know, that's time consuming. We rather not have to mess with all that. So I'm just going to take it at face value and go ahead. I think therein lies the demonic opportunities, when we, when we aren't discerning.

>> Alex McFarland: but do you feel like it's making, making, us intellectually lazy?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Yeah. There's a great word that I, I came across in, in, in seminary as acedia A C E D I A. The CD is a, it was a word that first gained some popularity with the, the Desert Fathers in the early first century church. that these monastic traditions. And they found that in fact that there's a scripture referencing it. Ah, the, the noonday sun is. Everybody kind of wakes up and they have their morning devotion time.

>> Alex McFarland: Right.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: And we know how to have an evening devotion time. but they, they defined the noonday sun as Acedia is spiritual slothness. There's a lot of S's there. But being spiritual sloth and I, I can, I can talk to this. I've written several articles about acedia and that in the sloth of it, because I experience it every day, it's just so much easier for me to pop onto AI real quick and say, boy, you know, what did Paul mean? Or give me two or three examples or using it as a concordance we've got in and of itself. That's not bad.

>> Alex McFarland: We got to take a brief break. Dr. Drew Dickens. AI and you'd faith. Stay tuned folks. Alex McFarland here. Glad you're listening. We'll be back after this brief break.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: The God who Speaks.

>> Alex McFarland: And of course he went beyond even the Old Testament law in the sermon on the Mount saying you, you've heard.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: It said, you shall not commit adultery.

>> Alex McFarland: I will tell you that if you've.

>> Abraham Hamilton III: Lusted in your heart, you have already committed adultery.

>> Jeff Chamblee: And then I realized something. I can't believe less than Jesus believed. And he had absolute confidence in the Old Testament.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: The God who [email protected].

>> Abraham Hamilton III: The Hamilton Quarter podcast and one minute commerce commentaries are available at afr.net Back to the Hamilton corner on American Family Radio.

Dr. Drew Dickens will speak at the COVID next summer on biblical prophecy

>> Alex McFarland: Welcome back to the program. We're going to resume our conversation with Dr. Drew Dickens. I want to remind people, I know the last thing you're probably thinking about right now is, the summer of 2026, but I've got the privilege. I'll be again at the COVID the Billy Graham Training center in western North Carolina. Just been a great joy to go there for 20 summers. And next summer, July 17 through 19, I'll be doing a three day seminar on biblical prophecy. And then, July 27 through 31, I'll be there for five days with Dr. Gary Habermas, just one of the great apologists in the world. And we'll be doing kind of a deep dive on apologetics about knowing and defending the Christian faith, kind of rising to the challenge of 1 Peter 3:15, being ready to give an answer. And so the website is thecove.org spelled just like it sounds. T H E C o v e thecove.org we always have people, from literally around the world. when I was there last summer, we had a family, came from India, came all the way from India to go to the COVID It's in beautiful western North Carolina in the, the Appalachian Mountains. And we will get into the word of God and fellowship together. please pray about joining us at the COVID next summer. Also, I want to remind people that Bert Harper and I just released our third book, 100 Bible Questions on Prophecy and the End Times. And these are the questions from the listeners of our show Exploring the Word. And so published by Broad street along with we did 100 Bible questions. We did 100 Bible questions for families as you, plan the gifts that you'll give. each of our books really contains an explanation of a clear explanation of the gospel. And we ask the reader a question. Have you begun a relationship with Christ? So we pray that God will use these books and we hope they'll be a blessing to you. As always, my travel schedule and the articles I write, they're [email protected] and we appreciate your interest with me is Dr. Drew Dickens.

Do you see AI playing a role in some of what the Bible predicts

And Dr. Dickens, you. I want to commend you. You're such a fascinating person, with whom to speak and I want to encourage people. Look, familiarize yourself with his research and his work. He's helping a lot of people understand where we are technologically, myself included. Dr. Dickens, give your website, if you would.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Sure. Drew Dickens D R E W D I C K E N S Drew like a picture Dickens like Charles dot com. And you can find my substack channel and the website and boy, just every. There are no pictures of the grandkids, but pretty much everything else you could ever want to know is on drewdickens.com.

>> Alex McFarland: You know, I want to talk about the good side of the, of this technology because I really do think there's a lot of good there. But one more potentially negative, question. You know, you read like in Revelation, chapter 13 about you know, the, the beast and the Antichrist and there's this image of the beast that has godlike properties and, and imagine, And you know, people worship the beast and the image of the beast. do you see AI playing a role in some of what the Bible, prophesies about the, the. The end times and the tribulation period and this global police state and people. You know, it says there's a strong delusion coming. Do you. Do you foresee AI potentially being a part of all that?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: That Yes, most definitely. So when I came to Christ, it was the first book my parents went out got me was Hal Lindsay, the late great Planet Earth.

>> Alex McFarland: Sure, sure.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: And, and I obviously I went to Dallas Seminary. So I already naturally have a bent towards premillennial dispensational not to get in the weeds there. But Me too. So, So, so they already have some of those leanings. But, but in, in. In Hal Lindsay's book, Well, he was, he was mapping m out those metaphors, you know, quite liberally as far as. Well the, the locusts were, you know, helicopters and, and so on and so forth. And so it was hard for me at the time, 50 years ago, more than that, 50 years ago, to envision a world where, you know, that one day we might be. Be able to broadcast, you know, content around the world. I'm just. Things that were mind blowing to me in, in seventh grade. Now we of course just accept all of that and so, Tempted to go back and look at his book again and see boy AI could so easily create Well I love the word you use, delusions. but so easily generate fake content. and and delude us into thinking that this is this or that is that or this isn't this or that. One of the threats I think to the church right now with AI is just the, the attack on authority. so yeah, most definitely I see AI easily playing a role in that.

Alex says Peter Thiel is passionate about AI and the Antichrist

I do want to challenge you on something. You were mentioning the summer of next summer, you at the COVID on. On prophecy. I'd really challenge you. It's fascinating right now but Peter Thiel, is someone your listeners may not be familiar with but he's the co founder of PayPal. he was the first outside investor in Facebook. He's the CEO of a company called Palantir, right now.

>> Alex McFarland: Exactly.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: AI AI Defense. But his passion. I've not talked to the man, but listening to a podcast that he's been on, he identifies himself as a little o Orthodox Christian, and is very active in a church, in a Bible study in San Francisco. but his passion right now is is the Antichrist. And And you don't have to do much besides just Google Peter Thiel and Antichrist. but he is passionate about speaking to as many that will listen about AI and the Antichrist. Now his definition of Antichrist, may be different than yours and mine. his view of, of of of end times theology may be different. He's still kind of fleshing out some things. As he said on a recent podcast. It's above my pay grade. But I would before you speak there next ah summer which is an eternity in, in the AI timeline but I would, I think you would be fascinating to kid to get kind of caught up on where Peter Thiel ah and for that matter Elon has spoken about it. So his Zuckerberg who's a, There's a Jewish. So as all Sam Altman is Jewish, all acknowledge the presence of a, of a supreme being. but I think it's interesting watching Silicon Valley and these AI frontier models start leaning into what does it. What. What are the theological implications of, of AI and what does it mean to be human. So yes, I think that the enemy can use that to delude us into this or that I think will be a great threat to us in, in today as well as in times as well.

>> Alex McFarland: You know you mentioned the late great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay. And I'm going to invoke another late, 20th century American evangelical book that came out and, and I'm sure you probably, you haven't thought of this in years. There was an author, he was a born again Arab man named Salem Kurbin, and he wrote a book called 666 and it.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: I remember this.

>> Alex McFarland: Yeah, do you remember that? And this is like eons before the Left behind series. But it was, you know, basically pre millennialism in you know, story form. I remember, because I became a Christian when I was 21. Drew, I was in college, but I probably somebody at school, I was maybe in fifth or sixth grade, had the book 666. I knew nothing about anything, but I read it and it really scared me. But there's a picture in that book of people bowing down before a computer. There's like this, this IBM, computer that looks about like a deep freezer, but people are, it's a big, huge box. They're bowing down before it and worshiping this computer, computer. And but, you know, people, you know, mocked those kinds of books. Hal Lindsay, even Ernest Angley, I'm really doing a deep dive in evangelical truth. But he wrote one of these books too. But you know, in a way though, they weren't, While stylistically, you know, this was not Shakespeare here, but, you know, they weren't far off the mark in predicting how technology would just become ubiquitous and would envelop, all of our lives.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Yeah, I don't think it will be as. I think it'll be more nuanced than us bowing in front of a computer.

>> Alex McFarland: Yeah.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: One of the things that, China just in fact announced, this swarm of robots that they, that they're releasing into for a company, Elon Musk. I think that will be the biggest growth for Tesla is not cars or going to Mars, but, is robot, automation. and then when you embody, And again we can get into theological implications of just the incarnation. But when you start embodying AI into a robot, I think it'll be more subtle, than that. I think it's the ability for AI to generate content, to generate audio, video. and I didn't mean to, to laugh, but when you said, here we are, both Drew and Alex, humans, I think we're at a point where we kind of need to verify that, in fact OpenAI is launching an orb where it will verify our humanity. so I think that's very real and I think it'll be again, more nuanced than bowing to an IBM. It certainly won't be an IBM, but I, I think to a data center, whatever. But it'll be more nuanced and subtle than that. But I definitely think that that will be a threat that we need to take.

>> Alex McFarland: Very real. ethically, how do you feel about Christians investing in, you know, these companies? is, is it ethical for Christians to you buy stock and the, the major, you know, technological players, in your opinion?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Boy, I have never, I've lost count of podcasts I've been on. I've never been asked that question. So thank you for that.

>> Alex McFarland: Well, all of life is stewardship, you know.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Yes, absolutely. And I think we need to be good stewards of definitely we need to be good stewards of it. We need to be discerning for anything that we do. But again as we started the conversation in the very beginning about it's easy to go dystopian, with all the threats. But when you look at OpenAI specifically right now, this, the advances that it's seeing in pharmaceutical, in healthcare, massive advancements that would have taken decades can now be done in a matter of seconds as far as research goes. So you know, if you reframe the question, would I want to invest in a company that might usher in the rise of demonic forces? Of course not.

>> Alex McFarland: Right.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: But would I want to invest in a company that might cure cancer, next week? absolutely. So again I think we need, I think we need to be discerning on how they're you know, using different things. obviously the return that, that they, these companies have seen, whether or not we're in a bubble right now. But I, I'm, I'm very excited about where this is going. I'm excited about the advances in pharmaceutical and science innovations and, and research, is just mind blowing the things that it's, we're already seeing the benefits of, and, and, and, and as far as the kingdom, its ability to go into all the world. A pastor at a small church in rural Oklahoma can within seconds have their sermon translated into every known language in the world and, and, and sent out via various networks. it can, it can you know, create ah, study notes and a ah, 12 week Bible study series. my wife and I, last year on vacation, you know she, we actually had it create a four day Bible study program, ah, you know, from scratch for her and with questions and commentaries and, and all that. So its ability to customize, our time in the Word is amazing. the multiplication of it, the, the translation capabilities, and and just the fun of chasing a rabbit. Just theological rabbits. I mean, how fun is it just to crack open the Bible and just say, man, I've never noticed that verse before. Where did that come from? Is it, you know, its ability to take us there, is so exciting. So I, I, I would, I would say it's, it's ethically neutral when it comes to investing, but we need to be discerning on, on the, on the use of it.

I've got five dozen questions that I want to ask you now

>> Alex McFarland: time fleets away and, and I've got five dozen questions that I want to ask you now. for, and here's one. Will you come back? May we, may we have a 2.0 on this conversation?

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Absolutely. I'd be honored. Anytime. Anytime.

>> Alex McFarland: We got about a minute. Give us a homework assignment, a book to read.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Yeah, absolutely. we're not to be people of fear, so I would, if you haven't already, I would. And they're all free, models. They're paid models, but they're all free. So I would go to, you know, any of the, larger language models. If you, if you have a Gmail account, then you already have an account with Gemini, which is Google's language model. So start there if you want to. OpenAI is another one. And just go, go into their context window and start asking questions, maybe something that you wished had been answered on Sunday morning and just.

>> Alex McFarland: We're out of time. Bless you. Thanks for listening, folks. The views and opinions expressed in this.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: Broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of.

>> Alex McFarland: The American Family association or American Family Radio.

>> Dr. Drew Dickens: M.