AFA is hosting a weekend with supporters in Tupelo, Mississippi

>> Speaker A: I'll do some stand up comedy.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Abe will do some preaching, and I'm.

>> Tim Wildmon: Really excited about it.

>> Speaker A: The weekend with AFA is a chance for our supporters to get better acquainted.

>> Ed Vitagliano: With the people and ministry you're supporting.

>> Frank Gaffney: It's a weekend with AFA, Thursday, October 2, through Saturday, October 4, in Tupelo, Mississippi. Speakers will include Abraham Hamilton III, Jenna Ellis, Tim Barton, Tim Wildmon, and more. [email protected] that's AFA.netweekend.

Tim Wildman hosts Today's Issues on the American Family Radio Network

>> Jeff Chamblee: Welcome to today's Issues, offering a Christian response to the issues of the day. Here's your host, Tim Wildmon, president of the American Family Association.

>> Tim Wildmon: Hey, good morning, everybody, and welcome to Today's Issues on the American Family Radio Network. Today's Issues, the name of this show on this Monday, July 21, 2025, in his studio with me is, Ed Vitagliano. Good morning, Ed.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Good morning, Tim.

>> Tim Wildmon: And brother Fred Jackson is in the house. Good morning.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes, sir. I am honored to be in the presence of two trivia experts.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, thank you, Fred. we're humbled.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, we're always humble.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna test you.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Oh, you. That was a setup. That's a. We'll get even.

>> Tim Wildmon: Go ahead, Bring it.

>> Fred Jackson: No Canadian jokes allowed. what happened a year ago today, July 21st.

>> Tim Wildmon: July.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Look it up. No, I'm not looking it up.

>> Tim Wildmon: Just thinking back. Turn that Rolodex back, Ed. July, your mental Rolodex. first. 2020 first.

>> Ed Vitagliano: My. Listen, my mental Rolodex, all those little cards, right. have come off the spindle. They're. They're all just in a big pile. There's no Rolodex anymore. You know, like I used to. Used to. Right. you know, with cards. Ah, yeah. Kids didn't know how to shuffle. Yeah. I'm in a big pile. And.

>> Fred Jackson: Daddy, what's a Rolodex?

>> Ed Vitagliano: That's what my Rolodex is.

>> Tim Wildmon: You know what? there's a. I don't know what age the cutoff is, but there's probably a lot of people don't even know what a Rolodex is.

>> Fred Jackson: Oh, we tease some of the younger people in the newsroom. Yeah, yeah. We. You know, Chad Groening is one of the older ones.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.

>> Fred Jackson: He has a Rolodex. So we tease.

>> Ed Vitagliano: He still does.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah. What's. What do you got on your Rolodex? And these young people go deer in the headlights.

>> Tim Wildmon: What is a Rolodex?

>> Ed Vitagliano: That's kind of an expensive watch.

>> Tim Wildmon: What is the name of that? Rolex.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Rolex.

>> Tim Wildmon: All right, Fred, we give up.

Joe Biden announced a year ago today he wasn't running for president

>> Fred Jackson: What happened a year ago, Joe Biden said, I'm out of here.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, all right.

>> Ed Vitagliano: that was on, July 21, 2024.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: I think actual quote was, nancy says, I'm out here.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes. Or after a phone call from Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Ye.

>> Fred Jackson: I'm out of here.

>> Tim Wildmon: I'm out of here. I'm not going to run. So he announced a year ago today he wasn't running.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: okay. I did not. I did not realize it was the anniversary of that, so.

>> Fred Jackson: And Democrats celebrated Kamala Harris.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Fred Jackson: Taking his place.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: That was, without getting a single primary vote.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right. Yeah. So that didn't. How'd that work out for him?

>> Ed Vitagliano: it's been big and beautiful ever since.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, wow. Okay, then that. So I didn't realize that was a year. Where did Biden.

>> Ed Vitagliano: That seems like a hundred years ago.

>> Tim Wildmon: What is Biden? I saw him a picture of a month ago. He was like on a. On a train going from Delaware to D.C. to his quota office down there. Did you see this? Yeah.

>> Fred Jackson: He's given a few speeches. I know here and there.

>> Tim Wildmon: Really?

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Had a few ice cream cones.

>> Tim Wildmon: We'll pay. We'll pay you ten grand if you can get through the speech. How's that?

>> Ed Vitagliano: What they're doing 10 grand? Former President's got.

>> Tim Wildmon: I know.

>> Ed Vitagliano: They get a hundred of a million dollars or something.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

Tulsi Gabbard made some big news over the weekend

All right, Fred, what's the first story?

>> Fred Jackson: Well, the. The Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard made some pretty big news on the weekend. She announced, she was on Fox News, a couple of times on the weekend. She announced that she has been going through some papers, which she says proves that President, Barack Obama had a meeting in his office in December following the 2016 election in November. And the allegation is, is that Obama, along with some of his other intelligence agency, FBI head, etcetera, cooked up a scheme to say that the Russia influence in the election was true. That there was proof that the Russians influenced the 2016 election to Donald Trump's benefit. Here's what she had to say. She's done a couple of interviews now. Here's basically what she had to say. And this will be cut number 17.

>> Kristi Noem: Miguel Francisco Moro. Nunez is. I'm sorry, has a rap sheet.

>> Fred Jackson: It's cut number one.

>> Ed Vitagliano: A short time ago, the US Military carried out massive precision strikes on the three key.

>> Fred Jackson: That's not it. No.

Tulsi Gabbard says Obama orchestrated conspiracy against Donald Trump

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, we're off to rough start here this morning, Fred. Yeah, I know this, Monday.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, I guess it's not going to be like July 21, 2025.

>> Tim Wildmon: that's pretty bad. We're looking for a year from now.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Guess what happened a year ago.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, go ahead. Do you think you got it right this time or.

>> Fred Jackson: No, we don't have a jet. anyway, basically the story is this, that there's. And Tulsi Gabbard used a few phrases like treasonous conspiracy coup. But she was saying Barack Obama got together with James, Comey and

>> Ed Vitagliano: James Clapper, John Brennan, all of those that former National Security Advisor Sus Rice.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes, and some people say Hillary may have been involved too. Anyway, bottom line in all of this is that they brought together something that led to the Russiagate against Donald Trump, etc. Etc. You have it. Now. All right, here's Tulsa Gavage piece of.

>> Speaker H: Manufactured intelligence that claims that Russia had helped Donald Trump get elected contradicted every other assessment that had been made previously. The effect of what President Obama and his senior national security team did was subvert the will of the American people, undermining our democratic Republic and enacting what would be essentially a years long coup against President Trump. We are referring all of our documents, to the Department of Justice for, for the purpose of accountability and action. No one, no matter who they are, no matter how high up they are or how powerful they may be, no matter who the intelligence, officials or professionals were who were a part of this treasonous conspiracy, there must be accountability.

>> Fred Jackson: That's Tulsa Gabbard. And Greg Jarrett is the Fox legal expert. He added some more details, from what Tulsa Gabbard is saying.

>> Speaker A: Cut number two, I think actually two books on this. And it all begins with Hillary Clinton. Summer of 2016, the CIA Director John Brennan discovers that Hillary has approved this plan to falsely smear Trump for colluding with Russia and helped finance the bogus dossier. We now have Brennan's handwritten notes recounting two meetings at the White House that included Obama, Biden, Clapper, Comey and they knew it was all phony. But instead of telling the truth to the American people, they kept silent. They secretly joined the scheme to vilify Trump. They altered intel documents to propel the scandal, even though US Intelligence determined there was no Russian interference and helping Donald Trump win. So you know, this was the beginning, Brian, of a decade long lawfare campaign which could actually constitute a vast conspiracy case. And I think that's one of the things the FBI is now looking at.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah, that's the bottom line. Tulsi Gabbard says she's turned all of this over to the FBI and the Justice Department, and she says she has whistleblowers that are going to come forward.

>> Ed Vitagliano: You know, I don't know, how. Of course, we'll. We'll wait and see what the Justice Department says, because there's a difference between doing something that's illegal, breaking a law, or breaking more than one law, and doing something that is politically abhorrent. If this is true, what Tulsi Gabbard is saying, and apparently she claims to have the proof of what she's saying, this cabal and this attempt to, to undermine the new, the duly elected president in 20, 16, Donald Trump, that is certainly politically abhorrent, whether it amounts to something that is illegal. In other words, laws being broken. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Justice Department says in the FBI. My own personal opinion on this, and this is just my opinion, is that I don't want to see us going down the pathway of putting the opposition party's president in prison. I think for Barack Obama to be charged with the crime and put in prison, it had better be something really big and very clear so that both political parties go like they did with Richard Nixon. Republicans went to Nixon, said, you got to step down or you're going to be impeached and you might wind up going to prison. Okay, now all the other players around Obama, again, if this is true, what Tulsi Gabbard is saying, Clapper, former Director of National Intelligence, Clapper Brennan, James Comey, Susan Rice, if they broke laws, I have no problem with them going and spending some time in prison. I don't, I don't like what the Democrats did try to do to Trump, and I don't want to see the Republicans push for that to happen to Barack Obama. When presidents start going to prison, it had better be. They shot someone on the White House lawn, and everyone agrees that that prison term is warranted. But if this is true, politically, these people all Biden, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, their careers should be ruined. And everyone. This should be bad enough for everyone to go. Yeah, they deserve it.

>> Fred Jackson: I know A Fox this morning played a clip of, James Comey, former FBI, had under oath saying, that it was true that the Russians. He had proof that the Russians did this. So if you lie under oath, yes.

>> Ed Vitagliano: That'S, that's Prison time.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes.

>> Ed Vitagliano: I don't know how much time goes with that, but that's the kind of thing where you got to say, okay, he said that, that the, The Russia, this Russia in involvement in the US Election was true. He said that under oath while he knew it wasn't and while he was a part of this group, then that's, that's actionable, that's illegal.

>> Tim Wildmon: Why do you think? In the broader, context here, of course, we're sort of reliving old news. Right. We're rehashing it, now.

>> Ed Vitagliano: But now this is, this is new, the information she has.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yes, this is new. However, we did know with the Hillary Clinton investigation, how her campaign tried to set up President, Trump, then candidate Trump by, spying and, and, and, and,

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, the FBI was spying.

>> Tim Wildmon: The FBI. The false dossier, the setting up General Flynn.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: The whole thing was meant to undercut, the Trump administration and President Trump and, And, Why do you think? Well, this is a dumb question, I guess, or an obvious question. Captain Obvious. and, you know, Hillary Clinton campaign was proven to be behind all this. Right now you're talking about Barack Obama.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Being directly involved, Joe Biden and all these.

>> Tim Wildmon: But why would they, why would that. Do you think they in any way, shape or form thought that Russia was really behind President Trump's election? how would you even. Election interference and it cost Hillary Clinton the presidency and all kind of things like that? Is that even plausible?

>> Ed Vitagliano: I don't, I don't think it's plausible. Now that I think the original. Fred, you can correct me on this. I think the original accusation was that Russian bots were used on social media, wasn't that it? To try to influence the American people in for whom they were going to vote. I don't know what else, you know, they were accusing, the Russians of doing, unless they were talking about. I don't ever remember them saying that the Russians, for example, hacked voting machines. No, that wasn't part of the accusation. But the, the left had to come up with some explanation for why Hillary lost and Trump won. And so you had to find a bad guy somewhere. And I guess that was the motivation. We'll blame the Russians because they're always bad guys.

Ed: I just hope that people don't accidentally kill themselves in prison

>> Tim Wildmon: All right, where does this go here? She referred it to Telse Gabbard, referred all this information that you mentioned and, we heard. Talked about there to the Justice Department, Pam Bondi and the fgi and the FBI.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah. Cash Patel.

>> Tim Wildmon: All right. Anything more to say on this subject, Ed?

>> Ed Vitagliano: I don't. We'll just have to wait for the wheels of justice to turn. And I just. I just hope that, you know, if someone goes to prison, they don't act, you know, accidentally kill themselves in prison. That seems to be something that happens kind of, frequently.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. Okay, next story. Fred. All right, Lee beds comments.

>> Ed Vitagliano: That proves that I have nothing else hanging.

>> Tim Wildmon: I didn't mean anything by that. I just. That was just a Freudian slip.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes, I'll ask. I'll ask Brent to get cut 17 ready. That'll be Christy.

>> Tim Wildmon: No, I don't think we use word cut either when we're talking about people in prison.

>> Ed Vitagliano: I made a mistake. Now, you're just.

>> Tim Wildmon: You're just really just hanging us all out, dry.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: There, see? I did it again. What's wrong with me?

>> Ed Vitagliano: I don't know.

>> Tim Wildmon: Just bad puns everywhere.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yep.

>> Tim Wildmon: Go ahead, Fred.

Two motorcycle riders opened fire on a border patrol agent in New York on Saturday

>> Fred Jackson: Well, we had an incident in New York on the weekend where a border patrol agent, 42 years old, it was, I believe, late Saturday night. He was not in uniform. He was out with a friend, and, two guys on a motorcycle stopped, and one of them opened fire on this border agent. Whether he knew this guy was a border agent or he was just being a bad guy.

>> Tim Wildmon: Was it a robbery?

>> Fred Jackson: it did not turn out to be, no. The border agent actually had his service revolver with him and shot back. Anyway, the guy who has been arrested, who opened fire on the border agent, it turns out he has a very long rap sheet in the country illegally. How many times have we heard this scenario over and over again? Anyway, Kristi Noemi, this morning, gave a briefing on what she knows at this hour about this guy, and she let her know her feelings about Joe Biden allowing all these illegals in the country. And almost every day now we're hearing another case like this where an illegal immigrant carries out a violent act. Cut 17.

>> Kristi Noem: Miguel Francisco Moro Nunez is and has a rap sheet that is a mile long. He was arrested. He was charged with grand larceny and also assault. The state of Massachusetts has an active warrant out for him for armed robbery with a firearm. He also has, many other charges against him, such as kidnapping and witness intimidation. There's absolutely zero reason that someone who is scum of the earth like this should be running loose on the streets of New York City. He was arrested four different times in New York City, and because of the mayor's policies and sanctuary city policies, was released back to do harm to people and to individuals living in this city, make no mistake, this officer is in the hospital today fighting for his life because of the policies of the mayor of the city.

>> Fred Jackson: And she, she basically went on and she had Tom Holman come in, who is the border. Her border czar. And he said, you know, that's it. we're going to make sanctuary cities a priority. sanctuary cities like New York, like Los Angeles, like Chicago, Minneapolis. These are cities that are allowing these kinds of people who are in the country illegally carry out these kinds of crimes. And, this is just the latest example.

>> Tim Wildmon: so, okay, I'm just going on the information you've given me, it sounds like to me it was a targeted attack. Okay. Because the, if, unless it was a robbery, you know, they were just. This guy was just picked at random. but it sounds like to me he, whoever this did this. Again, I'm speculating here, but whoever did this knew who this guy was, he was a border agent and assassinated him.

>> Fred Jackson: Or tried to attempt.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yes, an attempted assassination. do we know the status of the border patrol agent?

>> Fred Jackson: He is in hospital, in serious condition.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay, now this was, according to, officials, I think it's New York City.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes.

>> Ed Vitagliano: but Kristi Noem is mentioning this, that this was a robbery attempt.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, so this.

>> Ed Vitagliano: So she added, our officer was off duty on Saturday evening when him and his friends were attacked. They were attacked by two individuals that were set on robbing them.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, then I, I take back what I said. I, if that, if it is a robbery attempt, then, then it could be. It could have been anybody.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Right?

>> Tim Wildmon: He wasn't. He just happened to be a off duty border patrol as weapon in New York City, which, you know, Border patrol agents work the southern border, not New York City. Right.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, no, they can go. If they're part of ice, they can go into space.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, okay.

>> Ed Vitagliano: For individuals. Now this particular individual, Christy Gnome is saying, when she mentions a rap sheet a mile long, this guy had serious, serious, serious priors.

>> Tim Wildmon: I don't think you blame the mayor so much as you blame the DA's. they're the ones the mayor can't bring charges and prosecute a case.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, it depends on what the law is, though. If the, if the law. If the law. Now, I don't think DA's in New York City are handcuffed. They seem to be all in with these liberalized policies regarding sanctuary cities. But if the law says you have to release, for example, you have to release someone on cash bail no matter what their charge is. Or if they are illegal immigrants, you can't hold them. You can't turn them over to the federal government. As if the Biden administration would have done anything anyway. Then it could be both. Could be the DA's and the mayor and the city council. They all could be in cahoots in making New York City a, sanctuary city. And.

>> Tim Wildmon: But, but, but, but, but. To Adams. Mayor Adams, again, I. Mayor Adams has been outspoken about New York being a sanctuary city, and they shouldn't be. Remember when all the other. All these, illegal immigrants flooded New York City, and he was, like, going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We can't do this, and we should change our law to not be a city. sanctuary city, I think, is what he m. Am I the only one who remembers this from a couple years back? Mayor Adams, I think he's.

>> Ed Vitagliano: I think he changed.

>> Tim Wildmon: He changed what?

>> Ed Vitagliano: I think he changed his mind on this issue. I think he was sanctuary city friendly.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. Until it impacted them.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: But. Okay.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Kristi Noem says. She said that. That the criminal record on the part of this guy, was thanks to Mayor Eric Adams. Sanctuary city policies. So at least Kristi Noem is blaming.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, Adams, I'll say this to these. I don't. I don't understand it.

Liberal ideology says you don't send black males or Hispanic males to jail

But this is big city America, everywhere, especially that the Democrats control. And I can't think of one big city that Democrats don't control. Maybe Dallas, Texas. I don't know. But, the. The liberal ideology, a quote, progressive ideology, is that you don't send, people, to jail, especially if they're black males or Hispanic males. I don't know what you do with white males. Maybe you put them in jail. But, I'm talking about violent crimes committed in the cities that, There's already enough incarceration. Right, right. Of, of, minority, males. So we need to give them a pass. How do we give them a pass if they commit violent crimes? You just, process them and turn them back out again to the public. Because, we need to. We need to right the wrong here. And the wrong here is, too many, as I say, especially male, minorities in prison and. Or jail. So we don't. So we need to give them a free pass on crime. And is that, that's where we are.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right.

>> Fred Jackson: And in particular, illegal aliens. When New York found out this guy was in the country illegally, what they should be doing is turning them over to ice. This is what they're refusing to do in these sanctuary cities.

>> Tim Wildmon: And that's what she's talking about.

>> Fred Jackson: That's what she's talking about.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, fair enough. That's fair criticism. But, I don't,

Donnie King wonders why voters continue to elect politicians who don't protect them

Anyway, what is the mayoral candidate, who's leading, who won the Democrat primary in New York City? He's.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Mom, Donnie.

>> Tim Wildmon: They're saying he's strangely silent on this case.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, because he's in favor of sanctuary city status remaining. So he's got, if he, if he comes out in defense of being sanctuary city friendly, he's going to explain why someone like this is out on the street shooting people.

>> Tim Wildmon: What I'm a little mystified is the voters in these cities continue to elect people who don't protect them.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah, I know.

>> Tim Wildmon: How does that happen? It's like you're, you're voting against your own safety.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Because you're, they, they keep voting for these far left politicians. I'm talking about in the big cities that don't want to, don't believe in incarceration.

>> Ed Vitagliano: They want to put criminals in jail.

>> Tim Wildmon: They don't want to.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: They don't. And yet the people who. The crime goes up and the people say, yeah, I want more of that.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Right?

>> Tim Wildmon: I want to vote for more of that. It just doesn't compute with me. We'll be back momentarily. Stay with us.

Over 60% of abortions today happen through the abortion pill

>> Ed Vitagliano: This June 24th marks three years since Roe v. Wade was overturned. But here's what you may not know. Abortion numbers have surged to a 10 year high. The battleground has shifted from the courtroom to our homes. Today, over 60% of abortions happen through the abortion pill, taken in silence, often alone. Preborn network clinics are standing in the gap, meeting women in their most desperate hour. And here's what they're Young mothers, terrified and misled, are delivering their babies, tiny, perfectly formed, onto bathroom floors. These precious babies, once called just tissue, now lie lifeless. 11% of these women who take the abortion pill will suffer serious health complications. Countless others carry emotional scars for a lifetime. When you give to preborn, you're not just saving a baby, you're saving a mother too. You're giving her hope, financial support, and the truth. PreBorn has already rescued over 350,000 babies. But there are so many more who need our help. Your tax deductible gift makes this mission possible. To donate now, dial £250 and say the keyword baby. That's £250, baby. Or go to preborn.com afr that's preborn.com.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Afr but he saves the poor from.

>> Tim Wildmon: The sword of their mouth and from the hand of the strong, so the helpless has hope and injustice has shut its mouth.

>> Jeff Chamblee: American Family Radio. This is Today's Issues. Email your comments to commentsfr.net Past broadcasts of today's Issues are available for listening and viewing in the [email protected] now back to more of today's issues.

Sanctuary cities say they will not cooperate with federal immigration authorities

>> Tim Wildmon: Hey, welcome back, everybody, to Today's Issues on the American Family Radio Network. Tim, Ed and Fred. And we were just talking about, we kind of, we were talking about what happened in New York City where a border patrol agent who was, unclothed, not in uniform. What, naked? Okay, that was a bad way to say it, but he, he wasn't in his uniform and he was, shot. but it turns out it was a robbery. But he was shot by an illegal immigrant, right?

>> Fred Jackson: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: Who's been arrested and which, And the guy had a rap sheet, a long rap sheet. And you're wondering, how does an illegal immigrant have a long rap sheet in the US it's because of the sanctuary city policies. You wonder, some people may wonder, what is that exactly? This is where the local law enforcement and city government say, we're not going to cooperate with the federal government when it comes to, illegal immigration. So that, that, that's how they would escape being picked up by ice, for example, and either imprisoned here or deported. All right. at least having to pay the consequences of their being in the US Illegally and then committing an act of violent crime. But these, a lot of these big cities, what would be the reason you think they would say that, that we, want to be a sanctuary city? Why would a city say we don't want to cooperate with the federal government? well, because when it comes to immigration and, and then we'll get to our guests and then how do you get away with it? Because seems to me like that, all, all our governments are to comply with federal law.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, in terms of turning. In terms of cooperating with the federal government, it's not a law that you have to cooperate. So in the past that has been done as, just as, you know, one level.

>> Tim Wildmon: I thought it was,

>> Ed Vitagliano: No, it's not. It's not.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Now it, now the federal government has the right. Federal agents have the right to grab someone like they've been doing. Like they've been doing. But the reason why local governments aren't forced to cooperate with the federal, with ice, for example, is because that costs money. You have to have your police Officers doing federal tasks. and that costs money, and you can't force a city to do that and to spend their money.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, it's money. It's not politically driven, then.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, no, no, in terms of the cooperation, that is political, and it's based probably on money. But in terms of the. The politics of it, these cities want to be sanctuary cities. They used to voluntarily cooperate with the federal government, but they want to be sanctuary cities because they believe in open borders, and they want to be known as cities that welcome illegal immigrants into their jurisdiction. So we are not. You can come here. New York City says. And we will not cooperate with the federal government. So unless you run into one of the feds, you're. It's okay for you to be here.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. But you understand that is, in a sense, violating federal law because. Because you're. You're here illegally. Well, you're here. You're here illegally. And the local government, when they know you're here illegally, aren't reporting you to the federal government, which can deport you.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, but it's not. It's not law that you have to report them to the feds. Okay, that's, so that.

>> Tim Wildmon: So then why have a sanctuary city status at all? Why do.

>> Ed Vitagliano: You're letting. You're letting the illegals know you're welcome here in New York City. we're a sanctuary for you. A sanctuary city, actually, that comes from the Old Testament. They had sanctuary cities. You remember if, if you committed murder, you could flee to one of these cities. They were called, I forget the name of it. our guest would. Would remember, but, that idea of a city being a sanctuary, that's. That's a biblical idea. And they're saying, you're welcome to come here. We won't turn you over to the feds. Yeah, they have to catch you on their own.

>> Tim Wildmon: You're listening to today's issues.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Cities of refuge. That's what it was in the Old Testament.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, that sounds positive, though.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: You can be a city of refuge for outlaws, too. Right. That's had that in the old Old west, didn't he?

>> Ed Vitagliano: That's right.

Robert Gagnon is a visiting professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary in Mississippi

>> Tim Wildmon: all right, so, the wild, wild West, I should say, which was the Old West.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: all right, we want to welcome to our program Dr. Robert Gagnon, who's been on with us before. He is a visiting professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary, in Jackson, Mississippi. And, we're going to talk to him. Good morning, Robert.

>> Frank Gaffney: Good morning. Good morning to you, Tim and Ed.

>> Tim Wildmon: And Fred, appreciate you, but where are you today, by the way?

>> Frank Gaffney: I'm actually in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania where I reside permanently, though I teach for Wesley Biblical Seminary, which is of course in Ridgeland, Mississippi. But I'm teaching these classes remotely. And next semester, starting in a month, I'll be teaching a very important class.

>> Tim Wildmon: You're teaching them remotely? do you have any, proof of documentation so we can know whether you're taking advantage of Pittsburgh Sanctuary City law or not?

>> Frank Gaffney: I'll get on that immediately.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yes, please, please send that over to us and fax it if you would, because no, nobody knows what a fax is anymore. Under 50. I remember, see, first time I saw a fax machine work and was probably what, 40, 30, 40 years ago.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, it's probably.

>> Tim Wildmon: And I remember when it was being demonstrated by the individual who brought it in to say, hey, look at this fancy new piece of equipment. It was a fax machine. And I thought to myself, well, that's, this is the end of FedEx right here, huh? This is the death of UPS. Because nobody needs an overnight package document anymore, right. If it can be faxed, like the, the facsimile machine was showing.

A new class is coming up exploring what are the most important Biblical texts

So you've got a new class, coming up called the 15 most important text in the scripture. The 15 most important text in the Scripture. What is this about? tell us about this, Robert.

>> Frank Gaffney: Well, it's, it's an effort to try to explore what are the most important texts in scripture. And you could come up with almost any number. I came up with 15 because of a 15 week semester, so constrained by the academic calendar. And let me tell you that is, this is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do is to try to whittle it down to 15. I did an initial list, about a year ago and I think I came. I was able to narrow it down to about 70. So I'm going to. I have to remove a lot of those in order to get to the 15, but it's quite a challenge I'd be interested in hearing from you guys. If you had such a limited purview in which to isolate the most important text of scripture, what would you think would absolutely have to be in there as a text?

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, we're, we actually want to interview you, Robert. our opinion here doesn't matter. So. No. okay. Do you got, you got any one thing you'll throw out?

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, I mean, John 3, 16 would be kind of a no brainer list. Yeah, it would be in the top, certainly in the top 15.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: I'm just curious as to, what Robert used as a kind of a criteria. Robert, how did you. How did you decide I would pick, like, John 3:16? Not only because it's so familiar, but it's such a clear explanation of, you know, the heart of God and how, people come to a saving knowledge of Christ and, all those kinds of things. But I'm, I'm curious as to what criteria you would use to. I mean it. To me, it's. Now, don't, don't get me wrong, folks. I'm not putting these in the same category, but when someone says, well, name the top five basketball players of all time, okay? The arguments, you get over those kinds of questions.

Robert Vortex has assembled a list of 15 most important biblical texts

And now the top, the 15 most important texts in the Scripture. Robert, what did you use to put this verse in this basket and these in another basket?

>> Frank Gaffney: Well, just a general assessment of what the church has regarded as the most significant over the centuries. But some of it is, you know, there are a lot of texts that could be chosen. There are some texts that could absolutely not be chosen. I would say, for example, you could start with the creation text, right? How could you not have the creation, right? It seems pretty obvious there that that has to be in the discussion. How could you not have the Fall, right? I mean, this is an epic moment in cosmic history, right? It's almost obvious on its face that it has to be in there. but, there's, you know, just. You have to figure out. Start from the beginning, right? how many going to give to the Old Testament. How many going to give to the New Testament? I've sort of tentatively worked it out. 8 and 7 or 7 and 8, roughly split it in half and go, from there, some figures. You know, how can you leave out, right, in the Old Testament, how can you leave out Abraham? Absolutely essential for the Christian faith going forward. how can you leave out Moses, right? There's got to be something associated with the life of Moses. how can you leave out David, right? The promises to David, so significant for Messianic understanding going forward. Moses, he got two things right. Many have, actually half a dozen things you could select from Moses. You know, how can you leave out the Ten Commandments, right? How can you leave out the, great miracle at the sea? probably the greatest event as far as a miracle of deliverance in the Old Testament is concerned. what would you do with the prophets? What text could you. Would you absolutely have to have from the Prophets in the Old Testament, the Gospels. What are you going to single out in Matthew, Mark and Luke as the most pivotal text? Vortex. you got to have something from John, right? You mentioned John 3:16. What about the prologue in chapter one, which lays out the word becoming flesh. the word being God and me and being made flesh. So, Acts, right? There's got to be something in the history of the early church. It's got to be put in there. Paul and Corpus, right? one of the most important set of materials in the New Testament. What do you got? How many texts you go allow to Paul? you got to have something from the book of Revelation right at the very end. So this is already constraining the number of things I've been mentioned. Psalms. Are you gonna. Can you. Can you get something. Fit something from the psalms in there?

>> Ed Vitagliano: Have you finished. Have you finished. Have you finished your list?

>> Frank Gaffney: I'm actually being a little bit cagey because I'm not. Don't want to divulge the actual text that have been selected ahead of time. I want a little bit of surprise there week by week for persons involved. But, I still have, like two or three techs. Not sure. I've got two techs in poll that I think, you know, really have to be there. But then on the other hand, I think, no, actually there's about four techs that really have to be there, but I don't have room for four techs. So I got. I got to select two out of those. So there are some very, very hard decisions, involved in that whole process. But I think, you know, it'll be part of the fascinating thing in the class will be exploring. Should we have gone with this text or that text instead of this one? Why did we choose this one?

Robert Gagnon is a visiting professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary

>> Tim Wildmon: Dr. Robert Gagnon, gag N O N. A visiting professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary. and he's got a new course we wanted to make people aware of called the 15 most important text in the scripture. Okay, so you've got me wanting, to, go through this with you. How do I sign up for this?

>> Ed Vitagliano: Or can people.

>> Frank Gaffney: You can go. Can go to Wesley Biblical Seminary site. my course is described at, wbs.edu 15x.

>> Tim Wildmon: Why is it so hard? You just said something like Tom, Cruise would say in a Mission Impossible movie. Go to MX 97494. Repeat that again. You go to what now?

>> Frank Gaffney: WBS, huh?

>> Tim Wildmon: Uh-huh.

>> Frank Gaffney: WBS for Wesley Biblical Seminary. EDU and, uh,/15. The number 1515 dash X, TS, slash. But you can also just look it up on any, search engine. Just Type in the 15 most important text in scripture and my name, Robert Gagnon, and I'll. It'll take you there as well.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Robert, do you have to be a, Do you have to be a seminarian to take this course, or is it open to the public?

>> Frank Gaffney: Absolutely. Absolutely. Do not. This is an audit only class, so there are no requirements for the class. There are no required text to be read. There are no papers, there are no exams, there are no quizzes. Learning for the sake of learning. And it's a synchronous zoom course, conducted Thursday, 6 to 9pm Central Standard Time. But, if you can't make any given classes, or even the whole term, all of it will be recorded and available to those who enroll as to audit the class. So plenty of opportunity. But people starts on August 21st. So just one month away here.

Robert Gagnon talks about universalism and pluralism in Christianity

>> Tim Wildmon: All right. Dr. Robert Gagnon, Gagnon, visiting professor at Wesley Biblical Seminary, has been our guest. All right, Robert. Thanks so much. I know you couldn't. You wouldn't want to give away the whole class right there. That's a. That's the. You know, that's the.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, it makes it more, People are gonna be a little more excited to check this out.

>> Tim Wildmon: What, 15. Most are, the. What are the 15 most important texts in the scripture?

>> Ed Vitagliano: The good thing is, no one's gonna argue about this, right?

>> Tim Wildmon: No. Right.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Of course not.

>> Tim Wildmon: Thank you, Robert. Appreciate it. Bye. Bye.

>> Frank Gaffney: Thanks so m. Much for having me on.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yes, go ahead, Fred.

>> Fred Jackson: I'm reading a series from Robert Jeffress right now on the exclusivity of the gospel. Yeah, because that's under attack. One of the verses, that he gave for that is in Acts. I think it's chapter 4, verse 12. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind, by which we must be saved.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, it's one of my favorite verses in the Bible.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah. And he. And he talks about the push out there for universalism and pluralism.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah.

>> Fred Jackson: And he mentioned a name that I hadn't remembered for a long time. Rob Bell. Oh, yeah, Remember him?

>> Ed Vitagliano: He was a. He was an evangelical.

>> Tim Wildmon: Whatever happened to him?

>> Ed Vitagliano: He's an atheist now. I think he.

>> Fred Jackson: He went from universalism that everybody's going to heaven, doesn't matter what you believe, to. I think, as Ed says.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Let me double check on that.

>> Fred Jackson: He may have gone to atheism now, but he really promoted the idea of universalism.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Fred Jackson: And of course, a pluralist, much the same.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, listen, if, if Christianity is not exclusive is meaningless.

>> Fred Jackson: That's right.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Right. and Rob Bell is. While he has engaged with atheistic perspectives, he is not an atheist. He, I thought maybe he had completely deconstructed his faith, which is what some do, but he is progressive, and I believe he is a universalist. Believes no one's going.

>> Tim Wildmon: What was he formally?

>> Ed Vitagliano: I think he was a pastor.

>> Tim Wildmon: I mean, like, was he an evangelical pastor?

>> Ed Vitagliano: I believe so. he founded Mars Hill Bible Church. Remember you ever heard that?

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: he passed. It's in Granville, Michigan.

>> Tim Wildmon: Michigan.

>> Ed Vitagliano: He pastored it until 2012. It was one of. Mars Hill was one of the fastest growing churches in America.

>> Tim Wildmon: And then he, then he left and became a.

>> Ed Vitagliano: You know, people talk about deconstructing their faith.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Ah. And he, he became a, A, universalist. He wrote a book called Love Wins, and it's. It. It basically says that. I think he says no one stays in hell. He may. I don't know, but, but, I've never read the book. I remember hearing about him kind, of follow.

>> Tim Wildmon: Listen, you're. It's kind of like. Was it CS Lewis who made the. A lot of theologians have made the argument, but, there's no, There's no middle ground with, Jesus Christ.

>> Fred Jackson: That's right.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Either you believe he's the son of God or you don't. and if you believe he's the son of God, the one and only, the true son of God, then the Bibble and the Bibble, the biblical account of, the biblical account overall is true or not? there's no, you can't say as I guess, was C.S. lewis or who was it this is, that Jesus is a great moral teacher.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, that was C.S. lewis.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, we're not left.

It's either he is the Son of God or he isn't

I think he said we're not left with that option.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: It's either he is the Son of God or he isn't.

>> Ed Vitagliano: He's liar, lunatic or Lord. He either knows that he's not the Savior, and says he is, therefore he's a liar, or he says he's the Savior, but he's wrong, which means he's a lunatic.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right.

>> Ed Vitagliano: or he says he's the Savior and he is, which means he's Lord. That was his. The famous trilemma of C.S. lewis.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

Harvard is suing the Trump administration over alleged anti-Semitic bias

All right, you're listening to today's issues on the American Family Radio Network. Next story. Fred?

>> Fred Jackson: Well, the folks at Harvard are before a federal judge today.

>> Tim Wildmon: Harvard.

>> Fred Jackson: Harvard, yes. Ed is familiar with that.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh yes, it can do that.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Avid yard.

>> Fred Jackson: They are before a judge today, a federal judge who happens to be appointed by Barack Obama. But they are arguing that the Trump administration has no right to cut off Harvard from grants, research grants totaling about $2.6 billion.

>> Ed Vitagliano: B.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes. With a B. Yeah. Million is tokenism when you come Harvey.

>> Tim Wildmon: Gets $2.6 billion of federal tax dollars.

>> Fred Jackson: Trump administration wants to cut off those research grants because in the way of punishing Harvard for not doing enough about antisemitism. Remember we goes back the Harvard president, et cetera, et cetera. What happened was when Harvard would not agree to some conditions the Trump administration put out there with regards to. We want, this is the Trump administration. We want more diversity of thinking amongst your professors. We want to see about the kinds of people you're letting in from other countries, students who may be leading the charge against Jewish students, etc. Etc. again, Fox legal analyst Greg Jarrett talked about this this morning on Fox and Friends. Cut number nine.

>> Speaker A: Problem for Harvard, Brian, is they managed to incriminate themselves. Their own commission study found rampant anti Semitism on campus and, and frankly the university did little or nothing to protect the targeted Jewish students and others. And instead, you know, Harvard coddled the offenders and the protesters while creating this hostile environment of intolerance and intimidation and harassment, even encouraging it. And there's also, Brian, evidence that race discrimination in admissions and hiring continues at Harvard even though the Supreme Court told them to stop it. So all of that violates the Civil Rights act. And the penalty of course, is a loss of billions in federal funds. Yet Harvard seems to think they're entitled to government grants. I'd suggest that the elite geniuses at Harvard open up Webster's and look up the word grant. It's a gift. It can be given or taken away or made conditional. In other words, abide by the law, stop harming students. Get back to your core mission of educating young people. Harvard doesn't want to do that. So their defense here is, oh, we can do anything we want under the First Amendment. Well, you can't. Free speech is not a protection for breaking the law. So we'll see what happens at today's hearing. It's an Obama appointed judge who seems to rule consistently against Trump. If the case isn't settled, it'll go to the Supreme Court.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: So Harvard's their argument. I'm, looking by the way, at a story that is on AFN.net that is covering this, AFN.net, american Family News, that Harvard's argument is this. The government, the federal government under the Trump administration, is attempting to use the withholding of federal funding as leverage to gain control of academic decision making at Harvard. That is what Harvard said in its complaint. which seems to me to be absolute hogwash.

>> Tim Wildmon: That is not hogwash.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Hogwash.

>> Tim Wildmon: Absolute, absolute hogwash.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Not mixed, not halfway fruit loops or anything else.

>> Tim Wildmon: Else.

>> Ed Vitagliano: No, this is, now, as Greg. There was Greg Jarrett. Greg Jarrett, as he explains you, you. If you're going to get grants from the federal government, you have to play ball. And one of the things you have to do is you have to obey the laws regarding what happens on, in this case, on your college university campus. This is why, even if they were offered to afr, we would not take federal grants because there are always strings attached. And what Harvard is saying is we want the money without the strings attached. Now, if this was the Trump administration or any administration actually trying to influence what Harvard teaches, for example, what kind of classes they can offer, I would probably be willing to side with Harvard. But this is Harvard, breaking the law and apparently allegedly allowing for discrimination and harassment of Jewish students on the campus. They may win with this Obama judge. I don't know how they win when it comes to the Supreme Court, when the Trump administration appeals the decision.

>> Fred Jackson: By the way, Harvard doesn't need the money.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, no.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Hundreds of billions of dollars in the bank.

>> Fred Jackson: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: Ah. Their endowment is more than probably most countries have.

>> Fred Jackson: Yeah.

>> Ed Vitagliano: It's more than twice what I have in the bank right now. More than more than twice.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, I'll tell you what. all right, so, we, thank you for listening this hour, Fred. Appreciate your. You get a participation trophy yet?

>> Fred Jackson: Okay.

>> Tim Wildmon: Give him his participation trophy.

>> Ed Vitagliano: Absolutely. right up.

>> Tim Wildmon: We'll, we'll. We'll be back with Steve Paisley Jordo in five minutes. And we look forward to having you back here then as we continue, to cover the news of the day.

>> Kristi Noem: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Tim and Ed talk with Fred on top news headlines of the day including new information concerning the Russian collusion hoax. Also, Dr Robert Gagnon joins the program to discuss his new course at Wesley Biblical Seminary.