Today's Issues continues on AFR with your. Host, Tim Wildman
>> Today's Issues continues on AFR with your. Host, Tim Wildmon, president of the American Family Association.
>> Tim Wildmon: Welcome back, everybody, to Today's Issues on the American Family Radio Network. I'm Tim with Ed and Wesley. And now we welcome Steve Paisley Jordal.
>> Steve Jordahl: Good morning, everybody, and afternoon.
>> Tim Wildmon: And Steve does have the very, nice looking, Paisley shirt.
>> Steve Jordahl: Thank you. Rock the Paisley today.
>> Tim Wildmon: You got the gold and black and it's looking like a white. A New Orleans Saints fan.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Gold, black, white and gray. Silver looks nice.
>> Steve Jordahl: I was a Saints fan only as long as, Derek Carr. Derek Carr was a quarterback.
>> Tim Wildmon: He retired.
>> Steve Jordahl: He did, yeah.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: But so, you go back to being a Raiders, fan.
>> Steve Jordahl: I was still a Raiders fan the whole time.
>> Tim Wildmon: Well, the Raiders ever come back to prominence? Because I miss those guys. Me too. You know what I'm saying? They were, me too. Watching Kenny Stabler and Freddie Blitznikov and.
>> Ed Vitagliano: man, they had some great defenders.
>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, man, the raiders of the 70s. Yeah, they had the Cliff Branch and.
>> Steve Jordahl: he was a wide receiver.
>> Tim Wildmon: Hendrix, what was it?
>> Steve Jordahl: Ted Hendricks?
>> Ed Vitagliano: Ted the stork.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah, yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: They were. They won a couple of Super Bowls, right?
>> Steve Jordahl: Yep. They won two in the seventh with that set. And, they won one in the 80s.
>> Tim Wildmon: John Madden. How long was he their coach?
>> Steve Jordahl: Oh, he was. He left in like the late 70s or early 80s because M. Then he.
>> Tim Wildmon: Went on to broadcast CBS.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: What'd you say?
>> Ed Vitagliano: Bam. Yeah, he was, he was, he was wonderful.
>> Steve Jordahl: Tom Flores, super bowl coach, that won the second super bowl with him.
>> Tim Wildmon: Or the third, you know, John Madden, the legendary football coach. And then CBS announcer who. I don't know anybody who didn't like him calling games. Right. He was, he was great. I always look forward to him calling the game, but he would, He had it. He was terrified of flying.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes, that's true. He had the Madden bus.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, the Madden bus. The which. And he would take that all over the. It didn't matter if they were playing in Seattle and the next week they were in Miami. He was on that bus.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.
>> Tim Wildmon: Going there.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And who was. Who was the main play by play caller that he'd work?
>> Tim Wildmon: Pat Summerall.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Pat Summerall. Yeah.
>> Steve Jordahl: CBS often. Was it cbs. They were with the beginning.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Cbs. Yeah.
>> Steve Jordahl: They often had the Pro bowl in Honolulu. And he wouldn't go. You can't.
>> Tim Wildmon: Wesley. Let's do a baby boomer check on Wesley. What? You're millennial, right? Is that your category? Okay, so do the names Pat Summerall and, John Madden mean anything to.
>> Wesley Wildmon: You only John Madden. That's because when I grew up playing Nintendo. That's right. He was the front cover and the voiceover.
>> Tim Wildmon: But the video, the popular video football game.
>> Wesley Wildmon: I would say he probably made a little bit of money from doing that.
>> Tim Wildmon: Oh my word.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Because his voiceover was on all Nintendo's PlayStation.
John Madden College is still called Madden today
>> Tim Wildmon: His, his, his grandchildren's grandchildren are set.
>> Ed Vitagliano: For life because they had a college version. Yeah, they did. With the John Madden College.
>> Tim Wildmon: Isn't it still out today? Oh yeah. Still called Madden.
>> Wesley Wildmon: It is still called Madden.
>> Steve Jordahl: And it's still like a curse to be on the COVID of the COVID.
>> Wesley Wildmon: That's right, that's right. Yeah. If you're Heisman projection on the COVID and then.
>> Tim Wildmon: You fade.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: Break your leg or something.
>> Wesley Wildmon: So.
Steve Gain: Pastor John MacArthur passed away yesterday at age 86
>> Tim Wildmon: All right, so Steve, we, the before the break about John MacArthur.
>> Steve Jordahl: Pastor John MacArthur passed away, yesterday at about 6:00 o' clock in the evening. I had some conversations, text wise with Jenna Ellis, who was his attorney.
>> Ed Vitagliano: that's right, I forgot about that.
>> Steve Jordahl: She represented him battle with California during the COVID what I think will probably be his lasting legacy almost, disappointingly because he was such a strong Bible teacher for so many years and steadfast in everything he did. just firmly rooted to his understanding of biblical truth. Unmovable. And that is his legacy but what he will. In fact I was just speaking a little while ago with with Dr. Richard Land. But I also had a conversation, and I can't remember who's with Bishop E.W. jackson. Remember our former noontime, host Bishop E.W. jackson?
>> Ed Vitagliano: He filled in for Jenna Ellis and did this morning.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah, there you go. and so I had a conversation with him and we had a talk about the legacy of John MacArthur.
>> Wesley Wildmon: I think in many ways he led the way. I think he, he really inspired other pastors to step up and realize that we do not have to obey the government when the government is violating our commitment and our first loyalty to Almighty God. and praise God that he did because I think he unleashed a lot of spiritual courage and energy to resist what the government was trying to do not only in California but across the country.
>> Tim Wildmon: he was 85 years old.
>> Steve Jordahl: 86 I believe or 86.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay.
>> Steve Jordahl: According. According to Fox News, he was 86.
>> Tim Wildmon: 86 years old. John MacArthur. He had a Bible college, master's.
>> Steve Jordahl: Seminary and he had master's college. He started the college and then and added the seminary.
>> Tim Wildmon: Where was his church?
>> Steve Jordahl: In, in Southern California. Sun Valley, which is kind of Pasadena area.
>> Ed Vitagliano: I got you Grace Community Church, two books that I still have that I read that John MacArthur wrote the gospel According to Jesus and the Gospel according to the Apostles. Man, they, they were. He was such a solid Bible teacher. He never, he did not shrink away from just saying and teaching what the Bible says. But both of those, both of those books are really strong on the expectation that you're supposed to, as a Christian, you're supposed to obey Jesus as, as, as Lord. Now, I know there's some controversies over Lordship, salvation and all that kind of stuff.
>> Tim Wildmon: There is.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: What is that Lordship?
>> Ed Vitagliano: salvation is the idea that you, you come to Jesus as Savior and Lord and you must obey Christ if you are truly a Christian. Now, that is the counter argument to that is are you saying that works contribute to your salvation? And I'm just going to put that out there. I'm not getting into that right now.
>> Tim Wildmon: No, go ahead. Listen, we'll leave you alone. You just go for it.
>> Steve Jordahl: We'll be back in ten minutes.
>> Ed Vitagliano: But, he is, Let me just say at least this, he is exactly right that the expectation of the writers, of Jesus himself and the writers in the New Testament is that Christians strive to obey Jesus as Lord. And there's really no, no thought that a person would say, yes, I believe in Jesus as Savior and then continue to live a sinful life. That's so. And that, that's to me is the clear teaching.
>> Wesley Wildmon: One of the things that I like most about him is that later on, toward the last, seven or eight years of his ministry, he became that much more. Well, at least to my knowledge, to me, he was more vocal in things of everyday, life. yeah, I guess he had a platform that extended beyond his church. And so when he would speak, he would speak on issues such as what Chip and Joanne just did Gaines. And when he spoke on issues like that in response to other Christians, he didn't leave, he didn't leave any room to have to go. What does he mean by that? Or why would he say it like that? Or is he trying to pick, like, I don't understand. He made it to where it was crystal clear he would be really good. I know he, he probably wasn't just the biggest on social media. I don't know if he was or what. Or maybe he had somebody that ran it for him. I know this, though. He was, he, he spoke in a tweet. Okay. I mean, it was crystal clear as far as what he was trying to.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Say his show, Brent Creely. Come on. when does this show air? We air it week, weekday evenings at 10pm Central.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Grace to you.
>> Tim Wildmon: Grace to you with Dr. John MacArthur.
John MacArthur did not believe Christians should be involved in politics or culture
It's interesting because, now he did, he did mix it up sometimes within the evangelical Christian world.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, yeah.
>> Ed Vitagliano: He did not believe in what we do.
>> Tim Wildmon: He did not. One time.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes. It wasn't.
>> Steve Jordahl: Well, not what we do believe in. He do not believe in our mission.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes. He did not believe Christians should be involved in the culture, politics or politics, I think.
>> Tim Wildmon: Can I tell you the story about that? Yeah, real quickly. okay.
>> Wesley Wildmon: And that was at one point, because, like I said, the last seven or eight years of his ministry was a lot different than this first.
>> Tim Wildmon: So. Because I remember, I think I wrote him a letter, I, think or talked, to somebody, his office. Anyway, this would have been back in the 80s or 90s, talking about Dr. John MacArthur. And he wrote, he had written a book then called, why Government Can't Save you.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. And basically the theme of the book was discrediting Christian activism in politics. That, that was, a waste of time. Waste of time. We need to be concentrating on the gospel message. Getting that out there. And so you're, you're, you're, you're, moralizing. You're, you're, you're. This was his approach and it was critical. So he wrote why government can't save you. And of course, I don't know anybody in our movement who says government can save you. Right. Because that's, that's a straw man argument, which was surprising for a guy as smart as he was. Yeah, I understood what he was trying to say in that. we know our emphasis and focus as a church should be on the gospel message. But, it's like I wrote him. Part of the gospel message is. Well, not the gospel message in the sense of personal salvation, but the broader Christian worldview. Gospel message is for Christians to be engaged and involved. And if we want to have freedom and liberty in America, we need people who, We don't need to leave our elections up to just pagans, the choice between two pagans, you know, because they're going to come back on us.
>> Steve Jordahl: And they did on him.
>> Tim Wildmon: And. Oh, this is what I'm getting to. So that was, my argument that, that. And a lot of people said, why the, Remember, that was the rise of what was called the religious right at the time.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.
>> Tim Wildmon: Pejoratively by the media. It was really Christian conservatives saying, hey, Wait a minute. We've got to get involved in government and politics or we're gonna lose our country. And so that's all that was. So there were so many people that got involved. So. But John MacArthur wasn't involved in this, and he was critical of it, and so that's why I disagreed with him. Now, Interesting. He sort of came full circle. Now. He would say what his argument was, was, we don't need to be involved in the government unless the government tells you you must do evil.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Which I thought was a pathetic argument for a guy so smart. But, So unless the government tells you you must do something that's against the Bible, you're not to object to them. That's what.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Stay out of it.
>> Tim Wildmon: Stay out of it. Stay out of it. But interesting. During COVID he m. Did the opposite. He. He. Well, I wouldn't say. He wouldn't say. I did the opposite. He would say, I resisted. I resisted government oppression.
>> Steve Jordahl: The government's asking me to do something. The Bible, clearly.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yes, that's right. That's right. And so he and his church, including Jenna, his lawyer, stood up to it, and we applauded him.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And they won.
>> Tim Wildmon: They won.
>> Steve Jordahl: He would say. He would say, I didn't come to government. Government came to me.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Well, there was. There's been a couple instances, though, he's done that. He did that with the school, but also he did that during COVID if you remember. Yeah, I don't know if you're conflating the two. I think Jenna covered his Covid.
>> Steve Jordahl: That's.
>> Wesley Wildmon: She did lockdown.
Jim: I appreciate John MacArthur's shift on Christian social activism
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, well, then I think so.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Well, do you not remember, too?
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Three years before state. The state wanted to, impose something on this.
>> Ed Vitagliano: It was lgbtq.
>> Steve Jordahl: That's true.
>> Wesley Wildmon: That was. That's what. Actually, that's what got him more involved in, Well, now, also give him more credit than that, because I listened to multiple interviews, and he was on our radio network multiple times on this issue. He was actually, from a systematic way, backtracking. Okay.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, yeah.
>> Wesley Wildmon: He was going. He was saying to himself, okay, well, we're not going to. I want to be careful putting words in John MacArthur's mouth. But. But I will say what.
>> Tim Wildmon: What.
>> Wesley Wildmon: What I understood from him is we're going to. We're not doing this because it completely violates my Christian conscience, so we're not going to do it.
>> Steve Jordahl: Right.
>> Wesley Wildmon: however, how did my Christian conscience get violated? Okay, well, this person was elected. Okay, well, then why don't. Why don't we get involved in electing someone who's not going to violate my Christian conscience. So I do believe he got more and more involved in understanding the systematic, way. Now, again, I learned a lot from him and I just appreciate his, shift. I appreciate all about him, but especially that shift of understanding that there is value and there is a call to Christians and we're compelled by what we believe in the Bible to stand in the gap for our families, for our communities, for our country, and whatever means God's given us.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, I'll tell you what. Again, you ha. When you think about somebody like John MacArthur, you have to encompass his whole life's ministry. I mean, talking about 50 plus years or something like that. So when I'm quoting the one or two controversies, I'm not disparaging his overall ministry in any way. I'm just saying this happened along the way.
>> Wesley Wildmon: These are things people and are in our listening will remember.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, but this is what. In his book why Government Can't Save you, which was published in 2000, 2000, I think. He, he, he says the Lord did not come as a political deliverer or social reformer. He, he did not come as a political, he did not rally supporters in a grandiose attempt to, quote, capture the culture for morality or greater political or religious freedom. rather, his divine calling was to rescue the lost souls of individual men and women from sin and hell. In why Government Can't Save you, An Alternative to political activism, John MacArthur illustrates through scripture that regardless of the numerous immoral, unjust and ungodly failures of secular government, believers are to pray and seek to influence the world for Christ by godly, selfless and peaceful living under the authority, not by protest against government or by acts of civil disobedience, which is what he did later.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, sort of practice and give him credit.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, yeah. I'm not. I'm just saying. So I thought this book was unnecessary and too critical of our movement, as a. From coming from our brother. But, because you have to be involved in politics, in government, or you leave all the decisions up to the pagans. It only makes sense.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And you have to, you also have to jettison some of the most consequential movements in world history, like the, the movement to eliminate slavery.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And I don't know any Christian of any stripe. I, I'm sure if you asked John McCarthy again, I don't want to put words in his mouth. If Christians have an opportunity to vote for a bill that would end sex trafficking, are you saying that we shouldn't do it.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right?
>> Ed Vitagliano: I don't, I don't think that he would say no. Just it's, that's none of our business. So, you know, the movement to Elim. The, Jim Crow laws in the south, Martin, Martin Luther King Jr. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. These are some of the most consequential movements in world history.
>> Wesley Wildmon: You know, another thing driven by Christians. Another thing that makes this topic far more complex is the fact that we live in a, republic where you can vote.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right. Not a dictatorship. We can have an influence.
>> Wesley Wildmon: A lot of what was written in scriptures that he referenced as far as government. Some of that only, best, applies when you live under a king.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah.
>> Wesley Wildmon: But, but when you live under. What we have is an exception, which is why we call it American Exceptionalism. There's a few other countries similar, but really, historically speaking, there's been none with the First Amendment, Second Amendment, and so that does matter.
>> Steve Jordahl: I haven't read the book, and I take your, reduction of it is, is what it says, but from what you read, my, my thought is that protest and like that kind of activity is not at the heart of our activism. We, we work within the system. you don't see conservatives blocking roadways or.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Right, right, right.
>> Tim Wildmon: Or, well, operation rescue. Did they block the interest.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, there's a, there's some exceptions in there.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Again, here, here's what he said to my John MacArthur. This is quoting him to devote all energy, money and strategy to putting a facade of morality on the world or the appearance of rightness over our government, political institutions is to badly misunderstand our roles as Christians in a spiritually lost world. So again, I'm just saying, I'm just saying along the way there were a.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Few, there's, there's differences of opinion.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Ed Vitagliano: I mentioned the fact that he is from the Calvinist camp and there are Armenians and they're, they're going to guess what. They're going to fight over their particular perspectives until Jesus comes back. So Christians are going to have.
>> Tim Wildmon: Listen, I, which side you choose, Ed.
>> Steve Jordahl: I, I. John MacArthur has been corrected.
>> Tim Wildmon: go for it, Ed.
>> Ed Vitagliano: I'm not, I'm not taking the bait. I saw you tapping Steve on the arm and saying, hey, watch this.
>> Tim Wildmon: We're going to go get the popcorn.
John MacArthur took a stand against abortion and gay marriage
>> Ed Vitagliano: my sisters and I argued all the time. Okay. But we're family. And that's the way I view some of the, the disagreements inside the church where people Will argue. And you're a heretic. No, you're a heretic. well, guess what? Those. Those battles are going to continue.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Well, John MacArthur, I give him a lot of credit. One, he made this shit. He made a shift more towards what, you know, less critical of what. The things we do, but also, too, the. The core issues that were degrading America. He was very, very bold on.
>> Tim Wildmon: He was on Fox News a lot. Taking a righteous stand. Yeah, I commend him. Absolutely.
>> Ed Vitagliano: He would. He would take a stand against abortion.
>> Tim Wildmon: Absolutely.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Abortion. He. And he never said, yes, go to a gay marriage, go to a gay wedding and take a gift with you. Okay, so he never said anything like that. And.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, no.
>> Steve Jordahl: So he wasn't watching Chip and Joanna Gaines either, at this point?
>> Tim Wildmon: No. So, anyway, sad, sad. But, you know, he said he's 6.
>> Ed Vitagliano: so he had a very fruitful ministry.
>> Steve Jordahl: Celebrate his life.
>> Tim Wildmon: Next story. Steve.
Supreme Court allows president to carry out mass layoffs at Department of Education
>> Steve Jordahl: All right, Donald Trump had another victory at the Supreme Court yesterday as the justices. Minus one. it was an unsigned order, but there was a dissent from Justice Sonia Sotomayor. They are allowing him to carry out his mass layoffs at the Department of Education. the argument has been that only Congress can, get rid of the Department of Education. I don't know that. Donald Trump, I think he agrees that they can't, like, get rid of it, but if nobody's working in an empty building, all the workers work for him.
>> Tim Wildmon: So the Supreme Court said that the president, the executive branch can dismantle, can dismiss, employees of.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah, so they got an email which said the department appreciates. These are the employees got an email and said the department appreciates your service and recognizes the difficulty at this moment. This RIF reduction in force action is not a reflection on your performance or conduct and is solely due to agency restructuring as described in previous correspondence.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, well, the Department of Education, is notoriously far left. Right. Okay. It's a bureaucracy that's unnecessary. You can take the money if you want to take the money, you can just cut the money, Put. Put the money toward our debt, or you can take the money that would. Other. That would, otherwise go to the Department of Education from the federal government and distribute that money to the states and let them administer it. Administrate. Administrate it. That's the best way to go. We don't need. We don't need the federal government doing anything.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, and it would.
>> Tim Wildmon: It.
>> Ed Vitagliano: It's expanded its role.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Even on the local and state level.
>> Tim Wildmon: Right.
>> Ed Vitagliano: You Know, issuing, you know, this dictate and. Right, dictate. And from Washington, D.C. washington D.C. you're going to do this and you're going to do that.
>> Tim Wildmon: And they're almost always liberal, always in their, in their, in their policy. So. Yeah, so we can do without the Department of Education.
>> Ed Vitagliano: you know, now it's not com. Yeah. It's not completely eliminated.
>> Steve Jordahl: There is a Department of Education on the books. It's very good. People work there.
>> Tim Wildmon: It's going to be a quiet building.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yes.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Okay. you're going to be able to hear the vacuum cleaner from the second floor.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yes.
United Nations gets rid of standing committee that was critical of Israel
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Next story.
>> Steve Jordahl: All right.
>> Tim Wildmon: Got one minute.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah, let's just talk real quickly. Ah, good news at the United Nations. The United nations, has gotten rid of its standing committee that was, critical of Israel. There was a permanent inquiry committee of inquiry on Israel under their Human Rights Council. All the members have resigned, they say, due to pressure from Donald Trump, who, Who put one of their members on, sanctions because he was a strong supporter of Hamas. The others resigned. there seems to be, some sense coming back to the United Nations. The anti Semitism is still there, but, it is losing influence at the United Nations. This is a good sign.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, and tip of the hat to President Trump. He, listen, the guy gets stuff done. I mean, he just, he just says this way it's going to be. He doesn't. He's not afraid to put pressure on, international organizations, like in this case. And when he does stuff like this, I just admire, admire his work.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah, indeed.
Tomorrow on this program, Ed Vitagliano will discuss predestination
>> Tim Wildmon: all right, well, you're listening to today's issues. Our time is, When will the music click? In two seconds. There it is.
>> Wesley Wildmon: Economy is falling apart because of all the tariffs. He did. Oh, wait, no, I think everything's going great.
>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow on today's issue, this program, a very special edition, Ed Vitagliano will, take on predestination versus the free will of man.
>> Steve Jordahl: There you go.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Absolutely. And you want to stay tuned.
>> Tim Wildmon: He'll be here for an hour and a half.
>> Ed Vitagliano: I will settle the church.
>> Wesley Wildmon: You'll need two bags of popcorn for that.
>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. So we'll be here to cheer you on, Ed.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And. And then Thursday, I will, solve all the problems.
>> Tim Wildmon: Role of women in the church, eschatology. And then Friday, tongues. So stay tuned. Is it as it deals with all the.
>> Ed Vitagliano: The age old questions that, have afflicted us.
>> Tim Wildmon: All right, see you tomorrow, everybody.
