In today's society, traditional values of marriage and the family unit face increasing scrutiny

>> Ed Vitagliano: In today's society, the traditional values of marriage and the family unit face increasing scrutiny and reinterpretation.

>> Tim Wildmon: Join us as a courageous group of speakers and leaders rise up to defend these foundational institutions from a biblical perspective. For more information and to reserve your spot, visit us at scs. Edu National Conference, the steadfast national conference on Christian apologetics and evangelism, where faith meets reason, culture, and community.

>> Tim Wildmon: Welcome to Today's Issues, offering a Christian.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Response to the issues of the day.

>> Tim Wildmon: Huh?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Here's your host, Tim Wildmon, president of.

>> Tim Wildmon: The American Family Association. Hey, good morning, everybody, and welcome to Today's Issues on the American Family Radio Network. Today's Monday, September 22, 2025. I'm, Tim Wildmon, as the announcer just told you, and we thank you for listening to AFR and joining me in studios. Wesley Wildmon. Good morning, Wesley.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Good morning.

>> Tim Wildmon: And good morning. Chris Woodward. Good morning. And Ray Pritchard. Good morning, Ray.

>> Tim Wildmon: Good morning, Tim. How you doing today?

>> Tim Wildmon: Doing well. we, were in Colonial, Williamsburg and Jamestown, Yorktown last week with a group of folks, and then we were in, with about 50 folks. And then we were in Washington, D.C. and went to Mount Vernon.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Safely.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. The second half of the week, safely, in Washington, D.C. i get the joke. Yeah. Yeah. We were escorted by the National Guard.

>> Wesley Wildmon: That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: And so, everything. Everything was fine. So we had a great trip and glad to be home.

Yorktown is where the battle was waged during the Revolutionary War

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, I want to ask you a question. I've never been to Yorktown. Where. Where is that in relation to Williamsburg? Are they close?

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, yeah, they're 12, 20 miles, maybe.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay.

>> Tim Wildmon: Something like that. So, yeah, when we go. And we go in June and September every year. We're going next year, too, for people who are interested, in that trip, we go to. So. So Yorktown is where the battle was waged that led to the end of the Revolutionary War. You've heard of Cornwallis? General Cornwallis Heard that name for the British troops. He was a commanding officer, and it's there that he surrendered to George Washington, which, ended the end of the war. The Revolutionary War or the War for Independence. So that's the significance of, Yorktown. But it's right on the river. Right on the York River. So I would say Jamestown forced the first English permanent English settlement. Jamestown, then Williamsburg. They're.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: They're.

>> Tim Wildmon: They're all within 15, 20 miles of each other.

>> Wesley Wildmon: And that's about an hour and a half south of D.C. yep.

>> Tim Wildmon: Two and a half or two and a half.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Sorry. Gotcha.

>> Tim Wildmon: So you've been there?

>> Wesley Wildmon: Oh, no, I was asleep.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right. You've been to Williamsburg?

>> Tim Wildmon: Have not have. I think we've driven through Williamsburg. Didn't stop in Yorktown. Never been. It's on the ever expanding bucket list.

>> Tim Wildmon: Jamestown someday maybe. So Jamestown, not new. You've not been to Jamestown either then, right?

>> Tim Wildmon: Not been to Jamestown yet.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, there are very few places in America that rival the history of that, triangle there. Williamsburg, Jamestown and Yorktown, in terms of its, you know, impactful history on our country. Maybe Boston would come close or Philadelphia. They would be. Though those two places would also be very, very significant, in the, early history of the United States of America. But anyway, we had a great trip and we were glad to be home. Always nice to get back in your own bed, isn't it? Right. You know that you travel all over the place. You have all kind of. Kind of mattresses to deal with, don't you? Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: I've been gone for two weeks to New York, Chicago and Florida. And we got back last night. And I got to tell you, I told Marlene this morning, I slept good. I was glad to. Glad to be home.

You're six five, right? Six four. How do you do in bed

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Now I got to ask you a question that you maybe never been asked before, but, you're six five, right?

>> Tim Wildmon: Six four.

>> Tim Wildmon: Six four. So do your feet hang over the bed on, the. How do you do.

>> Tim Wildmon: In some.

>> Tim Wildmon: How you prevent that in.

>> Tim Wildmon: You scrunch them up, right. You lay on your side.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Position, you know?

>> Tim Wildmon: Exactly. Right.

>> Wesley Wildmon: In our hotel, this, the bathroom ceilings were about 6 foot 4 or 5.

>> Tim Wildmon: So Ray be hitting his head.

>> Wesley Wildmon: So I was able to touch the ceiling. That was not. Remember, I'm not having a duck at all.

>> Tim Wildmon: Five, ten, but five.

>> Wesley Wildmon: But the fact that I could stand in the bathroom and reach up, I thought to myself, I Wonder what a 6. 6 person would do in here. Yeah. And here we go. two days later, we get to ask. I know you're not six six, but, well, close.

>> Tim Wildmon: I know.

>> Tim Wildmon: Top you do in there. Do it very carefully.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, I know, I know. Tall. Get asked, you know, all through school, how's the weather up there?

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, man, it gets all, Chris on the other side.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah.

>> Wesley Wildmon: While we're. While we're talking about heights.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: So as we move down the scale.

>> Chris Woodward: All right. I am 56 on a good day with the right shoes.

>> Tim Wildmon: Hey, there's a lot of great men over history who've been five, six or yes.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah. And for. Let me say this, when you go to Israel, if you're a tall person, you will have to duck, when you go to several locations because, people historically smaller. I was the only person on the trip that didn't have to duck.

>> Tim Wildmon: All right, well, it is good to be home. Thanks for asking, Ray.

Ray: I watched the memorial service for Charlie Kirk yesterday in Arizona

And, yesterday, like millions of Americans and people around the world and many of you listening, I watched the, memorial service from Phoenix, for Charlie Kirk. And it was, one of the best TV experiences I've ever had. I didn't watch it live. I taped it. And Alison, I watched. She watched some of it live. But then we taped the whole thing, went back last night, and I watched several of the talks that were given and was just one after another after another after another of excellent, talks with people remembering Charlie Kirk and his influence and also, and more importantly, talking about Jesus Christ.

>> Chris Woodward: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: And, so, Chris, we have one.

>> Chris Woodward: Example of Pastor Marco Rubio, who also is Secretary of State, Pastor Rubio, as I've called him, Secretary, of State Rubio. he talks about Charlie and his influence on young people in the United States.

>> Tim Wildmon: He's not a pastor, he's not a senator.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah, but, he, Rubio gave the gospel message. And I've, I, I chopped it down here to about a minute and 15 seconds. But we can play Rubio, here given the gospel at the Charlie Kirk Memorial. Clip 5.

>> Marco Rubio: One of the things he wants us to take away from this, from all of this, is the following. His deep belief that we were all created, every single one of us, before the beginning of time, by the hands of the God of the universe, an all powerful God who loved us and created us for the purpose of living with him in eternity. But then sin entered the world and separated us from our Creator. And so God took on the form of a man and came down and lived among us. And he suffered like men and he died like a man. But on the third day, he rose, unlike, any mortal man.

>> Tim Wildmon: And then.

>> Marco Rubio: And to prove any doubters wrong, he ate with his disciples so they could see, and they touched his wounds. He didn't rise as a ghost or as a spirit, but as flesh. And then he rose to the heaven. But he promised he would return. And he will. And when he returns, because he took on that death, because he carried that cross, we were freed from the sin that separated us from him. And when he returns, there will be a new heaven and a new earth and we will all be together. And we are going to have a Great reunion there again with Charlie and all the people we love. Thank you and God bless you.

>> Chris Woodward: That's just one example of several speeches. It was not a political rally. It was a church service for Jesus Christ yesterday.

>> Wesley Wildmon: And there was very little, or none exactly, of watering down the gospel either. No, it was not a. Y', all, you know, not a universal type approach. It was very crystal clear when you get into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, you know that there is there, like it says in Romans, Chapter one, they are unashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that was very powerful. that was. And it was shared throughout the event. I saw half of it. I didn't get to see all of it, but it was shared like that. The portions I saw over and over again. And at no point you felt like you were getting the same message. E2. I mean, it was very well put together. Whoever coordinated.

>> Tim Wildmon: How long was it?

>> Chris Woodward: Oh, it was it five and a half, six hours.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Six hours, yeah. Now three hours of it was worship. M. if you go back to one thing I was going to mention, I saw reports, songs, song and worship. I saw reports of people standing in line as early as 4am in.

>> Tim Wildmon: The morning to get in to the stadium. The stadium, there in Arizona stated how many?

>> Chris Woodward: 60, some odd thousand. they actually had, Fox says Turning Point USA reports 70,000 filled the stadium capacity because they had people on the floor where the football field would normally be, with about 20,000 more attending an overflow venue. So overall, about 90,000 people were in Arizona at this venue, somehow, some way, watching it. In addition to the millions of people tuning in via YouTube and other stuff.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Another thing that, I wanted to get to or point out that we have audio for, and that's that the comparison about the response in the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

>> Chris Woodward: Yes.

>> Wesley Wildmon: As opposed to the response of the unfortunate death of George Floyd and the Summer of Love. And we have clips of that.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah, this. This one.

>> Tim Wildmon: Let Ray comment and then we'll get to that. Sure, go ahead.

>> Tim Wildmon: Just this. Several speakers called it a revival. There's been nothing like it in my lifetime. And you go back to 9 11, we had big services. You remember, Tim. Big services after now, but nothing like this. With the two or three hours of worship. You had Chris Tomlin there, Phil Wickham, and this was God glorifying worship. You had 70,000 people worshiping the Lord Jesus, great godly worship songs. And so you had worship leading into.

>> Tim Wildmon: yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: They talked a lot about Charlie, deservedly so. About his legacy, deservedly so, and the sort of man that he was. But he kept coming back to the gospel, made so clear by Marco Rubio and by the pastor and, hey, by our own Frank Turek. How about Frank laying it down? Laying down the gospel, which may have astounded others, but if you listen to afr, we hear that from Frank all the time. He's always bold. And I thought. I thought his comments yesterday were, one of the great highlights of the service.

>> Chris Woodward: I can get to Frank here in just a second, but we can begin if you guys are okay with it. We'll play Erica Kirk talking about the response from people, since the death of her husband.

Erica Kirk compared reaction to Charlie Kirk's death to other recent tragedies

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Okay. This is Erica Kirk, the widow.

>> Chris Woodward: Yes.

>> Tim Wildmon: Of, Charlie Kirk. And she gave. I listened to her whole talk, which was about 30 minutes, I guess, 25 minutes or so. Anyway, she, she was. She preceded President, Trump. And she, is talking here about the. As you say, Chris, and what Wesley brought up. we all remember what happened, and she didn't cite this as an example, but we remember what happened after the George Floyd death in Minneapolis and the.

>> Wesley Wildmon: In the months to come and the riots or the months after that took.

>> Tim Wildmon: Place, and burning whole city blocks, in case of many cities, multiple city blocks down and attacking police officers and the reaction of many people to that. And then she compared it to what happened to her husband and the aftermath. Go ahead.

>> Chris Woodward: Yep. Clip one.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: After Charlie's assassination, we didn't see violence. We didn't see rioting. We didn't see revolution. Instead, we saw what my husband always prayed he would see in this country. We saw revival this past week. We saw people open a Bible for the first time in a decade. We saw people pray for the first time since they were children. We saw people go to a church service for the first time in their entire lives.

>> Tim Wildmon: That Erica Kirk. Right. What'd you think about that? That was pretty awesome.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, she just pointing out the truth.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: On one side, you know, Wesley, you mentioned you use the word. I think the unfortunate, death of George Floyd. Absolutely. Good word for that. but after he died, suddenly the city started burning. Right. The bad guys came out in force, and they started burning American cities and they started taking over. And we saw it happen in Portland and Seattle and Minneapolis. Name any city in the last 10 days where anything like that has happened. No riots, no burnings, no marching in the streets. Just a great deal of sadness. The difference is stark between the reaction to one man's death and another man's assassination.

>> Tim Wildmon: You're listening to today's issues on the American Family Radio Network. Tim, Wesley, Chris and Ray, you know, yesterday again, one talk after another and the Lord God was glorified.

>> Chris Woodward: Amen.

>> Tim Wildmon: Over and over again by the speakers talking about Charlie's life. Charlie and Dr. Frank Turek, our good friend here who has a show Saturday mornings on American family radio at 9:00'. Clock. he's a great Christian apologist, defender of the faith. You know, as Frank says when he's on with us, he goes to college campuses all over the country himself, speaking and also debating and discussing issues with students. He'll often do an open mic where he just invites people to step to the microphone, ask him a question and make a comment, get into an argument or discussion as long as it's respectful. And so Frank does exactly what Charlie was doing. And, and Charlie even approached Frank a few years ago asking him for some help on how to defend the resurrection. He wanted to know more so he could talk about not just politics but also the evidence for Christianity. And nobody's better at that at Frank than Frank. Anyway, Frank, so Frank was mentoring. Charlie. Frank, you saw this folks, you saw the video. If you knew Frank or it was pointed out Frank was with Charlie, ah, at Charlie's invitation the day he was shot. And in fact if you saw the video of Charlie tossing out Make America great again caps, wasn't that what? Well so was Frank right there with him, Frank Turek. So Frank and Frank will be on with us soon. I, I text him Frank Turek the day Charlie was shot and killed not knowing that Frank was with Charlie. And so because I'd asked him, hey, can you come on and talk about Charlie? He said, Frank said, well no, I can't. I'm I'm still in Utah. I was with Charlie when we went to the hospital. So I felt bad about texting, but I had no way to know that chart that Frank was in Utah with Charlie. But I'm just saying that say they were that tight m Charlie and

>> Wesley Wildmon: And Frank, you know, that goes to Charlie Kirk's test his spiritual journey, which is one to be admired for sure. And that's that he was so fascinated with getting to truth and getting to the bottom of things that he was willing to humble himself in areas that he was unsure about and ask those who were more seasoned, hey, ah, how does this, how would you answer this? And he would even go so far to seek people to influence his life in areas as he was growing, which that, that's one sign of ah, evidence of a true Christian is being, having humility and being able to humble yourself. And that's what he did in many cases. But yet with things that he was certain about that were absolutes in the scriptures, he was very firm and how firm he was very firm in his beliefs and the things that were of absolutes. And so, I just through, through this, becoming more aware of. I've seen the video clips and I've followed him off and on over the years, but I did not realize how much he had influence and how much his platform had grown amongst those that were between 15 and 25 years old. I didn't realize that obviously good amount of that, but it didn't. I knew that he was traveling a new right. He was influential, and all that, but I just did not realize just how big, how impactful he was. And as many are testifying now, like his wife Erica, that she mentioned that people don't realize or the, the assassin doesn't realize just what she. What has unleashed with the ripple effect of his life now even more so. What does it say? It's in Galatians. It says, for me to live as Christ and to die is gain. And we're seeing, the impact of Charlie's life even more so than I would have ever even realized.

Tim Miller: We got a couple of Frank clips. Do we have, do we have Frank's clip

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah. Do we have, do we have Frank's clip?

>> Chris Woodward: We got a couple of Frank clips. this one here, and these are shorter than the ones we've played, so we might actually have time for two Franks here. but here is Frank talking about where Charlie is today. Clip 4.

>> Frank Turek: Charlie right now is in heaven. Not because he was a great husband and father, not because he saved millions of kids out of darkness on college campuses, not because he changed minds and chased votes to save the country, not because he sacrificed himself for his savior. Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his savior sacrificed himself for Charlie Kirk.

>> Chris Woodward: Now, a few minutes after that, Frank mentioned the Erica, now CEO of Turning Point usa, and how she is a great woman of God. And, here he is. Clip 3.

>> Frank Turek: I know what's going on in the spiritual realm right now. Every morning, Erica gets up, the devil shrieks, oh, no, she's awake again. And ladies and gentlemen, let's honor Jesus, let's honor Charlie, let's honor Erica. so that when we wake up every morning, the devil shrieks, oh, no, they're awake again. They're born again.

>> Chris Woodward: And then he walked off. That was like his mic drop into the speech.

>> Wesley Wildmon: That's great.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right?

>> Tim Wildmon: I thought Frank's speech was amazing. because in that setting, it's not easy to stand up in front of this vat. And Frank was there. There's a. There was emotion in his voice, as.

>> Tim Wildmon: You mean he was there at the. At the killing.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, that's right. He was just a few feet away. He saw it happen. Right. He was in the. Was in the van taking Charlie to the hospital. So you don't get closer than that. A lot of emotion there. But he pointed out, I mean, he gave the gospel so clearly that if you want to go to heaven, look, you're either gonna. He said, you're either gonna get justice or mercy. And he said, what do you want when you stand before the Lord? I'm just quoting what Frank said, you know, if it's justice you want, you'll get it, but you'll be unhappy. I don't want justice. What we all need is mercy. We need the grace of God. And the place to find it is in Jesus Christ. Just Tim, it could not have been clearer. The gospel of the grace of God. And, God bless Frank for grabbing that moment and pointing people to Jesus Christ.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yes. And that doesn't even. We didn't even hear his recounting of what happened, on that day.

>> Chris Woodward: Correct. That's. He began with that.

>> Tim Wildmon: His personal, experience. which, by the way, if we're going to. We're, going to find the clip from Frank Turks interview with Sean Hannity last Friday, I think it was.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah, a couple days ago.

>> Tim Wildmon: We're going to Thursday or Friday.

>> Wesley Wildmon: It's.

>> Tim Wildmon: Whatever it was anyway, it was, it was powerful. It was included Frank's YouTube comments on what happened and. But, so we're trying to get that together, find that clip and then we'll send it out.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Ah, yeah, we're gonna send that out through an email form.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Another thing, too, just to highlight, too. I don't know if we have the clip here, but I know that there was.

>> Tim Wildmon: I read.

>> Wesley Wildmon: I didn't get to see. There was a moment in Erica Kirk, speech where she said that she forgave the assassin because that's what Charlie.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Kirk would have won.

>> Chris Woodward: That is my fault. I thought I had it loaded.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, we got. We got to talk about that.

>> Wesley Wildmon: We do, absolutely.

>> Tim Wildmon: We got to talk about that one.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, so we got to take a break right here and we can talk about it when we get back with, And also we're gonna have a guest. Dr. Andy Miller will be joining us. President, of Wesley Biblical Seminary. But that clip that will you have when we get back?

>> Chris Woodward: I will go get it while you guys handle this interview.

There is a comparison there that I, uh, that we need to get to

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, Chris, run. Run, Chris. You take your little 5, 6 self down the hall.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: It's my time, Mom.

>> Tim Wildmon: And you do what you do. Chris.

>> Tim Wildmon: Chris, run.

>> Tim Wildmon: Run, Chris, run. Huh?

>> Wesley Wildmon: There is a comparison there that I, that, that we need to get to on that issue of forgiveness.

>> Tim Wildmon: Chris is gone now. I probably should have a little five, six. Yeah, I don't think he needed, you.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Know, because he's 55, he's got shoes on. And now you got. Now that process.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, I shouldn't have put the word little with it.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Okay.

>> Tim Wildmon: Although I've seen that some men that are five, six that aren't little.

>> Tim Wildmon: That's true.

>> Tim Wildmon: So I needed that descriptive. Right.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Sure.

>> Tim Wildmon: We'll be back momentarily. Stay with.

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>> Tim Wildmon: This is today's issues.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Email your comments to commentsfr.net Past broadcasts of today's Issues are available for listening and viewing in the [email protected] now back.

Dr. Andy Miller is President of Wesley Biblical Seminary in Mississippi

>> Tim Wildmon: To more of today's Issues. Hey, welcome back, everybody, to Today's Issues on the American Family Radio Network. Today's Issues, the name of this here program. I'm, Tim with Wesley and, Chris and also Ray Ray's in Kansas City. We're in Tupelo. And joining us in studio now is our good friend Dr. Andy Miller, President of Wesley Biblical Seminary located in Jackson, Mississippi. And, Andy joins us in studio. Good morning, brother.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Good to see you, Tim.

>> Tim Wildmon: is the campus in Jackson or Brandon or Madison or.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: We're in Ridgeland right on the border County Line Road.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Ridgeland, Mississippi, which is not the southern border.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: That's right.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: You weren't invaded that words. A very flared word. Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. All right, Doctor, Miller's. the president, as I said, of Wesley Biblical Seminary. We've been talking, folks, if you've been listening, hopefully you have, about some of the, things that were said yesterday in Arizona at the memorial service for Charlie Kirk. And it was just remarkable. One of the greatest things I've ever seen in terms of television reaching millions of people. I don't know who all carried it. Lie. Did everybody. Does anybody know? Did. I didn't. I watched it on Fox, but, yeah, CNN carry it.

>> Chris Woodward: A lot of news outlets carried it on a streaming channel. so you could go to ABC News Plus.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Not on the TV channel. Newsmax. I think they care.

>> Chris Woodward: Real America's Voice. I watched it on the, the Turning Point USA feed on YouTube, which I also posted a link to on our Facebook page for people that didn't want to watch it or didn't get a chance to watch.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. So, Andy, what were your impressions? You watched. You watched much of it, too, right?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: I watched a fair amount of it, yeah. I was so thankful for the public witness there. And as somebody in theological education, like, I heard a lot of good theology there, you know, particularly even from some people outside of the Protestant, evangelical tradition. Like, even people like Marco Rubio, Catholic guy. Oh, my goodness. And, Vice President of Ants as well. I mean, both those guys, I mean.

>> Tim Wildmon: Sounded like evangelical preachers.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Oh, my goodness. We had every point covered perfectly. I mean, in the 90 seconds I saw with Marco Rubio, I thought, man, I want to sign him up.

>> Tim Wildmon: I know, I know. He was. He was excellent. I watched his whole talk. Marco Rubio, Secretary of State. And, And let's see. I watched, tonight, I'm going to go back and watch. I wanted to watch Don Jr. Did you watch?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: I didn't see that one, no.

>> Chris Woodward: did you see a good impression of his father, too?

>> Tim Wildmon: He did.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Oh, interesting.

>> Tim Wildmon: Oh, Don Jr. Yeah, he did, with.

>> Chris Woodward: The hands and everything.

>> Tim Wildmon: But I watched. I watched Erica, her whole talk, you know, there, and I never heard her speak. I can't remember maybe on a clip here or there on video, but, Okay, so set this up here, folks, what we're about to play. And then, Andy, I want to get your reaction to this, and Ray to.

Erica Kirk spoke about her husband being assassinated 10 days ago

Okay, so what we're about to play is the part in Erica Kirk's talk, which keep, in mind for her too. She. I know she's been in front of crowds before with her husband, but nothing like this. I mean, the fact that she was able to keep her composure for 25 minutes without the mascara just starting to run down her dress, you know, her pants suit or whatever, you know what I'm saying? To not get so emotional. She can't talk. She kept her composure and she, she did a, So she, you know, 10 days ago, she had no idea she would be in this moment. Right. Where millions of people are watching her on television. They've never heard from her before her husband was assassinated. I mean, so she's, in a way, sort of having to relive and recant, you know, recount that day and that memory.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: So what we're about to hear from her, how long is this clip?

>> Chris Woodward: about a minute.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. What we're about to hear is she. She gets to the part in her speech Yesterday, about 20 minutes in, maybe I'm just guessing, me watching it and remembering 20, 25 minutes in, where she talks about her. What is her Christian response to the assassin. Of her husband. And here's what she said.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: My husband Charlie, he wanted to save young men, just like the one who took his life. That, young man, that young man on the cross, our Savior said, father, forgive them, for they not know what they do. That man, that young man, I forgive him.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Amen.

>> Tim Wildmon: Andy, go ahead.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love the beauty of that moment. And you think about the fact that she was speaking, you mentioned. Well, maybe she's not spoken before that many people before. I don't even think somebody like Donald Trump, how many times has he spoken in front of 100,000 people? You know, and there she is using that platform to acknowledge the humanity of this young man, as she kept on saying. You could tell she was wrestling through this, but yet she was able to imitate Christ in a beautiful way here. And I imagine this is incredibly healing. Now, there are inevitably going to be people who are divisive about this, like, say, oh, well, these folks saying this. I've even seen some commentators, you know, marketing towards evangelical communities who are still negative on the events of yesterday. But how can we negate this beautiful testimony of a woman who just 10 days ago lost her husband and is willing to forgive? And maybe one of the most public pronouncements that we've maybe even seen.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: You know, you have the words of Jesus that Erica quoted. to put it in context, she. She said Jesus said, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. That's one of the more. That's one of those statements of Jesus that the more you think about it, the more profound it becomes. Good Jesus hanging on the cross, and the very first thing he does is he prays for forgiveness for his murderers who are in the act of murdering him. It is. That's not natural. That's not, quote, normal. That's supernatural.

>> Wesley Wildmon: right.

>> Tim Wildmon: That's the. That's what the grace of God is. So she. I think she also, right after. Right after the end of that clip, I think she wanted to say, as Christ has forgiven us, we are to forgive. A truly biblical sentiment. And Andy, I know a lot of people, and honestly, I myself, we all. We all wonder what we would do in that situation. And she showed us what it means to be a Christian in what is one of the most horrible moments of life. Your husband assassinated before the whole world for the whole world to see in a. In the most awful fashion. And here she is 10 days later, because of the love of Jesus Christ, she is forgiving him. That is not natural. That is the supernatural grace of God.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Amen.

Charlie Kirk: Wesley Biblical Seminary sees 25% increase in students

>> Tim Wildmon: You're listening to today's issues on American Family Radio. Tell us what's going on at Wesley Biblical Seminary.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, yeah. Kind of indicative of what we see happening even in our country, with the revival of people being interested in the gospel, publicly proclaiming it, and even the interest that comes around. Charlie Kirk. We have seen a huge growth, 25% in the last, 14 months, really, altogether of an increase in number of students we're serving. You know, about three years ago, we had 330 students, and now we have 634 who are studying and learning to become pastors ready to serve the church. And so it's an exciting time for us as we see kind of a movement here. And part of that is we've stuck to the truth as revealed in scripture. We affirm the inerrancy of scripture and the promise that people can experience transformation in this life. Things that I know you all afr. Have been upholding. And that's part of what I think has positioned us at this point.

>> Wesley Wildmon: So it still works.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Amen. Amen.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Still works.

>> Tim Wildmon: Thanks.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Wesley.

The United Methodist Church recently split up between conservatives and progressives

>> Tim Wildmon: What are your thoughts on the divide? the United Methodist Church, split up.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

>> Tim Wildmon: The United Methodist Church was the second, It had been the second largest Protestant denomination in the United States in terms of membership, behind the Southern Baptist. so the United Methodist Church was a, you know, A church that had national roots, in the Wesley.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

>> Tim Wildmon: So what. What happened there?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, I mean, it was a very sad thing. Ah, across time, of course. It has such a wonderful heritage. And what the United Methodist Church was. And your dad was connected to this. I mean, afa.

>> Tim Wildmon: Afr. My dad was a United Methodist. you know, and he was heartbroken by the direction that the national leadership of the church had taken. And saw what happened with the, breakup, the divorce, between the conservatives and the more progressives, I guess you could say. Coming, but.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Right. No, it was. It had been happening for a while and there have been faithful people, you know, throughout the world really, of United Methodism, who had been holding to the Gospel faithfully. But sadly, even though what was written was clear, it was not upheld by the ministry of structures. And so as a result, and the individuals who are there so they would. Had fine doctrine that they would have continually reaffirmed. But essentially what ends up happening is that when a church refuses to stand on the authority of scripture and refuses to provide discipline, either an individual church or a denomination. Correct. Yeah. For the denomination as a whole or individuals like performing gay weddings or the like. When you're not going to do that, you essentially end up not being the church anymore. So, like, I don't think it's just a matter of a divorce. I think it's essentially like the Global Methodist Church and those who have broken away have said that the United Methodist Church is no longer part of the universal church. I mean, it's just not functioning the same way.

>> Tim Wildmon: Is that basically saying they're heretics?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: well, it's implicit. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think if we move away from the fact that God has revealed himself through the scriptures of the old New Testament and it's been clearly affirmed as the type of things you all stand on here. I think that that's not too strong of a word. Now, there are good people in United Methodist M congregations and there are probably congregations that ignore what is happening at the wider level.

>> Tim Wildmon: I was kind of stunned. What. How the would you say. And we'll move on here.

Tim Ferriss: Protestant churches have seen great divides over sexual ethics

I know that a lot of people listening go where, are you focusing on this issue so much? But it's really representative of what's happened in the Protestant church over the last.

>> Wesley Wildmon: That's why. That's why I joke and said it still works if you do it right.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, this happened. Yeah. A lot of people have experiences in individual churches and denominations. This happened to the Presbyterian Church.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, that's Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: this happened to the what other churches. Right. Where we've seen divide come over the last, over over scripture?

>> Tim Wildmon: Well certainly the Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Episcopal Church, we've seen in the last 50, 60, 70 years great divides. And in the, the Northern Baptist denomination itself, great divide over scripture, over truth.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: Over sexual ethics. Has God really spoken or is man free to make it up on his own?

>> Tim Wildmon: A lot of this is over. Is homosexuality a sin or not?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's the last point issue. But essentially like it's a deeper theological issue which is connected to what we're talking about in the news today. Today's issues, if I may. well, that it's ah, connected.

>> Tim Wildmon: So is it, is homosexuality a sin?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Oh, 100% yes. And not only. But what I'm saying is that it's connected to our doctrine of revelation, that if God has revealed himself through scripture primarily, as like sola scriptura, like it is the final authority, the primary authority, then that's a clear statement that.

>> Tim Wildmon: What would you say to people who say. And then you guys jump in here, what would you say to people who say, how can you call yourself a Christian and you preach that somebody's sexual orientation is sin? And is. How do you, why can't you just love people and let people love other people? Why do you have to be so judgmental? What would you, how do you respond to that?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, I mean I think I look in even the example of Charlie Kirk here, you know, he'd sit on a campus and he would hear these type of things and we say, well, what is love? How do we truly love people? And clarity about reality is kindness.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: And if it is true, if it is true that God has clearly stated through scriptures about the nature of what sin is and if we continue to live in a state of sin, it is not loving to come to somebody and tell them what is going to be leading them possibly to their eternal damnation. Like if you continue on this path now, I have a book coming out in the spring on heaven, hell and everything in between. I mean I could talk about those type of things for a while, but I think this type of trajectory is something we have to avoid as a church and to me often as a president of a seminary, it's often been the theological institutions that have led pastors astray. So like we're just trying to hold to those truths.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, right. that's the Bible teach that we're not supposed to judge other People by their. So if they're gay or lesbian or bisexual or something, who are we to judge them?

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, look, I don't want to judge anybody. let's let God do the judging, and let's let his words stand and be true, because I think that's what Andy is saying. So clearly, my opinion doesn't matter. Tim, what Ray Pritchard says when it comes to eternal issues means nothing. The only thing that matters goes all the way back to Genesis 3. Did God really say. That's what Satan always attacks, right? Did God really say. Has God really said this? The answer is yes. God has spoken, and he did not stutter. He's perfectly clear about salvation, about sin, about this life and the next life. And he has certainly spoken, clearly, not stuttered, about sexual ethics. The only question is, will we accept what God has said or will we rebel against it? And here's the thing, friends. When you rebel against what God has said, you may have what the Bible calls the pleasures of sin, but only for a season. the end result is bitterness, sadness, and eternal death in hell. So I think, and I just want to say this to all of our listeners, get to know the word of God, read the Bible, and line your life up with the word of God. Because, as Psalm 1 says, Blessed is the man does not walk in the way of sinners, but his delight is in the law of the Lord. He will prosper in all that he does.

One accusation against Christians on the left is that we are promoting hate

>> Tim Wildmon: You know, one of the attacks from people on the left, oftentimes against people like us, the crazy Christians. Right. Is that we are promoting hate. Okay? That is the most of all the accusations. Of course, that's. That's meant. Meant to get a rise out of Christians because number one thing we shouldn't do is hate. Right, Right. As Erica said yesterday, we can't hate our enemies. We got to love and forgive. so. But the conflation, if that's the right word, of what genuinely is hate with disagreement is. And they do that intentionally, to turn the general public against us. It's very. It's a very brilliant strategy, by the political left in this country. That's why they say you're a hate group.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Because for the longest we would pause and then we would try to defend.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yes, put you on the defensive. Yes, put you on the defensive already. Especially if you're a Christian. You're going, no, I don't hate anybody.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: But they say. Why you respond to that, Andy? Because they say, that by they. I'm talking about the People on the left, they would say, and you heard this on cnn, and there's still. Some of the speakers are still saying this about Charlie Kirk. They're using him. They're saying, they're saying, no, that's hate speech. When you say, you know, that, that, you shouldn't have two men. Shouldn't be. Shouldn't get married. That. That's hateful.

>> Wesley Wildmon: I tell you what you do. You beat them to it. You call their words hateful. What are you saying from a debate standpoint?

>> Tim Wildmon: You say, why are you a hater?

>> Wesley Wildmon: Yeah. Before they say it anyway. Make them defend themselves first.

>> Tim Wildmon: yeah, you can turn it on them. But what. That's a very effective strategy.

>> Wesley Wildmon: I got some comments too, at some point.

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, go ahead, Andy.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: I think you're right. Like turning it back on them, like even the comment about judging. Well, isn't that kind of a judgment you're making at the same time you kind of like, see, like, that's the.

>> Tim Wildmon: Favorite Bible verse of people who don't believe in the Bible, right?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: That's right.

>> Chris Woodward: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: They know one verse and that's Judge Not. Yeah, they don't even know the, the rest. They don't even know the second half of that verse. But they know Judge not, by golly.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Got that.

>> Tim Wildmon: They got that, they got that down. Go ahead, Wesley.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Well, I was going to say.

>> Tim Wildmon: Thank you, Wesley.

>> Wesley Wildmon: You're welcome.

>> Tim Wildmon: We're going to move. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I knew Wesman. He's been pin up over here waiting to get. He's got five notes he's written down.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Make that six. Don't interrupt.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, go, go.

Pastor Ray Pritchard and Andy Miller discuss confronting sinners

>> Wesley Wildmon: Hey, in all seriousness, back to your question that you asked. Pastor Ray Pritchard and Andy. Andy. Sorry, Andy. Dr. Andy Miller with Wesley Biblical Seminaries. The question about, How do you respond to, to your. To that. Well, I, I would do what.

>> Tim Wildmon: To what?

>> Wesley Wildmon: To your first question that you asked.

>> Tim Wildmon: Them about judging or. But go ahead.

>> Wesley Wildmon: No, what was the first question?

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, about being called a hater.

>> Wesley Wildmon: That's it. Being called a hater.

>> Chris Woodward: And.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Oh, also. No, it was. I know what it was. It was. Because I'm looking at my notes now. It was confronting someone who is in sin. How do you do? How do you go about that? What would compel you to do that? And a couple of thoughts I would. I have is that from a Christian's perspective, we have eternity in mind, and that is the, the lens in which we see the world. And if that's true. Which it is. Then we know that there's, there's life after life.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yes.

>> Wesley Wildmon: With eternity in heaven or hell. and so that would compel us to share God's word, regardless of the reaction that we could potentially get, knowing that it's God's truth that has saved us from our sins. So knowing that's the case and also too as you, because that is a very true thing or ah, that's a very true emotion that comes with, at what point do I confront someone with the truth knowing that this potentially is going to, they're going to be argumentative, combative or divisive? you got to remember that this is not your truth. This is God's truth.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Amen.

>> Wesley Wildmon: And that is, and having confidence in that. And I often say with the team that I coach or my family or my children or when I have an opportunity to disciple someone this area, I say do your best and leave the results up to God. And that's what we're supposed to do. In the same way with sharing truth and applying the scriptures, we do our best and we leave the results up to God. But we're compelled by having an internal perspective. I think so often as Christians, when we get it, when, when it is done wrong or gotten wrong. And I can speak from experience, back in my early days of ministry is when we look at it on this side of heaven like there is no eternity. If you're just looking at trying to make friends or you're just trying to not be accused of xyz, if you look at it through that short sighted lens, this side of heaven, then it is easy to start manipulating your arch, not manipulating your strategy. Changing the biblical strategy of how we approach people by discipling them. That's my five bullet points.

>> Tim Wildmon: Go ahead, Andy.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: No, I love that emphasis. Like I do think like trying to figure out if we do believe that God has spoken clearly through scripture and if we have the opportunity to communicate with people and to be able to see them as people of eternal significance, there, I mean there is of course an approach I think that is more effective than others. But at some point you have to come down on the truth and we have to side with the truth.

>> Tim Wildmon: Another aspect of this, and this is something Dr. Frank Tureg would say you guys talked about. When you're in a debate or an arguing situation about things like this, the other side often makes pronouncements that are supposed to be accepted as absolute truth when they themselves don't even believe in Absolute truth.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: His great question. Is that true?

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, is that true?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: That's right.

>> Tim Wildmon: Is that true? And you go, okay, think about this for just a minute. I don't want to get too deep in I guess philosophy, I guess. Or maybe that's not the right word. It's like a psycho. I got a big word I'm trying to say, but I can't think of it right now. But anyway, you get. You see what I'm saying? all right, let's say somebody says you're a hater.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay. Or you're a hate group or whatever they have, first of all, they've decided themselves that that's what you are. Okay. Sometimes I guess they might provide a little bit of evidence that they would accept. But really you could ask them. So you believe hate is wrong? M. Yeah.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Good, good. The more the morality of that. Yeah, yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: So we can agree that hate is sin.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yes, yes, absol.

>> Tim Wildmon: Right. You see stealing.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, yeah.

>> Tim Wildmon: Stealing from God. There it is. So that's where. I don't know what their response would be to that because ah, hate as a universally condemned motive or action comes from the Bible. Really.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Sure.

>> Tim Wildmon: They've just misdefined it.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: You know, I had I brought my. I have an 18 year old and a 16 year old boy and I have also a 14 year old daughter. I brought them on my podcast, we did a live podcast talking about this.

Dr. Andy Miller is the president of Wesley Biblical Seminary

because they were really deeply impacted by M. Charlie Kirk. Yeah. And I love. Ah. So I had them reflect on this. Well, I was surprised when I posted this on Facebook. The people who called us or Charlie Kirk haters and the type of language they were using. It was surprising to me how similar it was to the murderer, to the assassin. M. The exact things he said, like his statements that were in that text message strand weren't too far removed from the things people were putting on my Facebook wall.

>> Tim Wildmon: Really.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: I mean they weren't.

>> Tim Wildmon: But it wasn't directly direct what they'll say. They said. They said what the killer said. What was his name? Yeah, yeah. He still hasn't had a trial so let that be noted.

>> Wesley Wildmon: But what he's.

>> Tim Wildmon: What he's. Yeah, what he said.

>> Wesley Wildmon: He's confessed to it and there's evidence.

>> Tim Wildmon: Well, okay, yes, that's true, that's true. But he still. Anyway, he hadn't been convicted law yet.

>> Wesley Wildmon: I just don't like.

>> Tim Wildmon: Okay, I understand. But we know he. He confessed doing. But he said that one of the texts that he supposedly sent to his lover, if that's what you want to call him, his boyfriend, was that some hate can't be negotiated with.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Right.

>> Tim Wildmon: Remember this. To your point, Andy, what you're saying, that's what that. So he's saying, where's the hate?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Where is the hate?

>> Tim Wildmon: Yeah, that's what we're asking. You accused us of being haters, and yet your side is killing people, Right?

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Absolutely.

>> Wesley Wildmon: Very literally.

>> Tim Wildmon: Literally.

>> Wesley Wildmon: We do need to get back to. And there's a part of the show, by the way. There's a bunch of examples of that, too. Ray, how important is Christian education in Wesley Biblical Seminary?

>> Tim Wildmon: Listen, we need 100 more Wesley Biblical seminaries around the country. And God bless you, Dr. Andy Miller, and the good work at Wesley and Young Men, young women. You're looking to go deeper into the word of God and grow and be ready to minister to others.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Check out Wesley Biblical Seminary, WBS edu.

>> Tim Wildmon: Go ahead and give it again.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, yeah. Wbs, Wesley Biblical Seminary. World's best seminary.

>> Tim Wildmon: Wesley Biblical Seminary. check it out. Dr. Andy Miller has been our guest. He's the president of Wesley Biblical Seminary. And it's wbs. If you can't remember that, there's no point in applying because they don't. They can, they'll take people who can remember that. Yeah. All right. thank you, Andy.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: Yeah, thanks so much, Tim.

>> Tim Wildmon: We'll be back. We'll be back momentarily. Stay with us.

>> Dr. Andy Miller: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Tim, Wesley and Ray talk with Chris on top news headlines of the day including a recap of Charlie Kirk's memorial service. Also, Dr. Andy Miller joins the program to discuss the latest that is happening a Wesley Biblical Seminary.