Today's issues continues on afr with your host Ed Vitagliano
>> Ed Vitagliano: Today's issues continues on afr with your host, ed vitagliano. And welcome back to Today's Issues. I didn't give the date today. I don't think Tim always gives the date. It's Wednesday, July 29th. If you're just, if you're just now getting up and drinking your morning coffee, that's, that's the date midweek here, towards, the very, very end of July. Ed Vitagliano sitting in for Tim Wildmon. I'm joined by in studio by Fred Jackson and Tony Vitagliano. And now joining us, Steve Paisley Jordal.
You've said you like this shirt before
Good morning.
>> Steve Jordahl: Hey, everybody.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Is that a new shirt?
>> Steve Jordahl: It is not a new shirt.
>> Ed Vitagliano: I like it.
>> Steve Jordahl: Thank you.
>> Ed Vitagliano: I say I like it just about every time you have one on.
>> Steve Jordahl: You've said you like this shirt, particularly before.
>> Ed Vitagliano: because I like purple.
>> Tony Vitagliano: Has there ever been a shirt. Have you ever told Steve you don't like the shirt?
>> Tony Vitagliano: That'd be very rare.
>> Steve Jordahl: Never happened.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Not on the air.
>> Steve Jordahl: I get texts after the show. Don't wear that on the radio again.
>> Ed Vitagliano: It's anonymous.
For the first hour of this program, we basically were wall to wall coverage
All right, so, for the first hour of this program, we basically were wall to wall coverage of Rand Paul versus Anthony Fauci. I think we'll probably leave that behind.
>> Tony Vitagliano: A grieving session, you know, all our old wounds and grievances.
>> Ed Vitagliano: That is actually pretty accurate because we, I did not intend for us to spend so much time on it, but once we got going, it, it really was like bringing up old grievances, you know, between spouses and, yeah, we kind of went full bore on that. But that's, that's okay. Every once in a while, we will have one of those kind of grieving sessions where we talk about things that are wrong and people who have wronged us, people who have done us wrong, like Anthony Fauci. So. All right, Steve, let's not, let's not mention him. Who should not be named. What other stories can we talk about?
Carlos: Police in Madison shot and killed a Black Lives Matter protester
>> Steve Jordahl: Let's talk about this. blm, the Black Lives Matter protest group, is getting exercised again and calling for protests in Madison, Wisconsin.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Oh, a conservative bastion.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yes. Police in Madison, were called to a site where they saw a homeless man, or they were told about a homeless man that was looking, into cars. he was checking vehicle doors. He had stolen a bicycle. And, they pulled over, they. This man, his name is Corrie Ruiz. He's 38 years old. And a homeless man, he had a knife. The police there scuffled with him, tased him but it wasn't calming him down. And shortly after they put the taser on him, they shot him and killed him. And, at a press conference, Madison, police, Chief Jon Patterson was conducting a press conference. And a gentleman with a megaphone, followed by another person with a sign. The sign read, corrupt cops deserve to die too. Decided he wanted to start talking in the middle of his press conference. He took over the press conference. And the reason I want to play this is because there are people who are a little disappointed with the police's response. Police Chief Jon Patterson actually said, and you'll hear him say this, I'll step aside. Instead of just having the protesters arrested for, disrupting, their press conference, causing a disruption, they, let them go. But let's listen, if we can, to cut 13 trust in the city right now. Did not start.
>> Speaker E: Well, we can shut this down. You can stop talking because we don't want to hear anything you've been saying. You're going to say the same thing you all say every time a black body gets shot down in this city. This is a corrupt city. That's right. Have no fear. The anti Zionist is here. You understand me? You won't be able to talk today because I'm gonna keep talking. We have the power. Not that badge, not that weapon. We have the power. Oh, you don't get to talk, I said.
>> Fred Jackson: Right.
>> Speaker E: Go ahead.
>> Steve Jordahl: I'll, step aside.
>> Speaker E: That's right. Give me this microphone then. Excuse me. That's right. My name is Carlos. I represent Aptab. All power to all people. Zero. Power to Zionists, Zero. Power to capitalists. Zero sort of colonialism.
>> Ed Vitagliano: But the activist wasn't even detained, much less arrested.
>> Steve Jordahl: His, skin was too dark for
>> Ed Vitagliano: disorderly conduct laws to apply to him, apparently. And instead the police chief kept apologizing to the man and called him his friend. It's one of the most pathetic displays you'll ever see from American law enforcement. Every single one of these officers should be terminated.
>> Steve Jordahl: That was Matt Walsh coming in.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay, so he's the one who produced this, this clip, for his show.
>> Speaker E: The.
>> Steve Jordahl: He used this clip on his show.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay, all right, so. Okay, so at least I know that the Jews were behind this again.
>> Tony Vitagliano: Yes.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay. This is why this individual was, was shot. by the way, the First Amendment does give the, you know, the freedom for free speech, but it does say the right of the people to peaceably to assemble. So that's why this individual should have been. Individuals should have been arrested because you're not allowed to start a riot, right? Or to, to in essence interrupt an official meeting to spout whatever you want to spot. I don't care if the guy was conservative. You can't have that. And it's not a constitutionally protected, avenue for free speech. Fred, this is shameful because, I mean this individual, Black Lives Matter, he's, anti Semitic, he is against capitalism and is pro communism and believes that the west is corrupt because of colonialism. Okay? This is clearly the other side, the radical side of the other side of the political spectrum. This goes beyond just being liberal and goes classical liberalism, goes beyond being just progressive. This is a radical individual. I don't know why the police in Madison, which is a very liberal city, okay, for, for this guy to be going off on a liberal city, the police force in a liberal city. It reminds me of the clip we played yesterday, or maybe Monday, about the Democratic Socialists of America, the co chair who was saying, no, we need to defund the police. These are radicals who want to overthrow, the Constitution and order and institute a communist, form of government. And, Black Lives Matter from the founder who said she was a socialist. This is an up and coming group in our country.
>> Fred Jackson: This police chief who was giving this news conference has made a tragic error in allowing the news conference to be he handed over. Literally, it sounds like the microphone.
>> Fred Jackson: To this person who comes in and invades the news conference. What a precedent this sets. Because the BLM movement there in Madison, Wisconsin now knows it can take over and now knows it has a police chief that'll back away and we can do anything we want. It reminds me what happened in Seattle back there a few years ago, around the George Floyd protests, a group of protesters were allowed to take over a whole block of the city of Seattle by a very left wing mayor. Remember, they sat there, they set a federal building on fire, had their own laws, had their own laws in that one place. I think there were murders that took,
>> Ed Vitagliano: place in there and other crimes.
>> Fred Jackson: It reminds me what has happened in certain sections of London. Police are not allowed to go because it might have fed the Muslims in that given area. Listen, you know, there is law and order. You know, police have to obey laws as well. But to allow this protest movement, in this case the Black Lives Matter, to come in and take over, it only encourages even worse incursions by the movement.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, Tony, first of all, if the police did something wrong, that should be investigated.
Madison city council voted against police having body cameras
Okay, but you're dealing with A guy with a knife who had stabbed one
>> Steve Jordahl: of the officers, by the way.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay, okay, well then, then this is, this is, an absurdity. But, Tony, this is now a win, win situation, for BLM in these blue cities. I have little doubt that this intentional interruption was, they, these folks were going to win however this went if the police back off and let this guy spout his, Marxist ideas. It's a win if the police arrest the guy on the spot.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And I don't know how big this guy was. Was he pretty big?
>> Steve Jordahl: No, he. Well, was.
>> Ed Vitagliano: It would have been, difficult to take down.
>> Steve Jordahl: Not, not for a police chief.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Should have been horrible if, but if that happens while the cameras are rolling.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And you have, Was this guy a, person of color?
>> Steve Jordahl: Yes.
>> Ed Vitagliano: He was black.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yes.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay, so you have the police arresting a black guy and it turns kind of violent and it's forceful. It's a win for blm.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And to Fred's point, Tony, now they know that in these deep blue cities, this is what you do. It's a win either way. Either you're given the microphone and you get to say power to the people or whatever, or you get arrested. And it's yet another further evidence of a quote unquote corrupt, white, racist police department, afflicting people of color.
>> Tony Vitagliano: Yeah, look, there's plenty of videos out there of parents being removed from school board meetings because they start getting a little upset, a little heated, or they start asking questions that the liberal school board members don't appreciate. And so they ask the officer to kindly escort the person who's being perfectly reasonable and has their time on the floor. They asked them to leave. Yeah, they escort them out. but that, that line of thinking only goes one way. Honestly it does. And this is another example of that. This person should have been removed because if, if things, if certain things were swapped around, they would have been, they would have been removed either by the police officers or they would have been arrested at, you know, the most extreme example. By the way, I did just a little bit of digging, and found out that, the Madison Common Council from Madison, Wisconsin, this city rejected a budget amendment that would have funded police body cameras by defunding the office of the independent police Monitor. Monitor. so by a measure, a vote of 17 to 3, many of these council members belong to. They're unaffiliated politically officially, but they belong. The parties they belong to, let's say, are leftist in nature. So the city council, 17 to 3, voted not to have police, not to have body cameras, provide body cameras for police officers. Now since this has happened, they're going to push forward with it. But it's funny to me that liberals in this city voted against police having body cameras. And I don't know what the mode this says because it would have defunded the office of the Independent Police Monitor,
>> Tony Vitagliano: which I'm guessing is a wave, is a department that keeps tabs on police officers. And they're, I don't know, forgive my ignorance in there. I don't know what its job actually is. But rather than give police body cameras
>> Tony Vitagliano: that would, both, it would cut both ways. It would prove, that police officers who are acting against the law or against protocol, it would, it would point, those actions out. It would be video evidence, and, vice versa. Police officers who acted in accordance with protocols would be absolved of any wrongdoing. So this is what you do. You don't give the tools to the police officers, the police force that they need, to properly police and be held accountable. and then in turn, when something happens that you can't prove, one way or the other, you protest and use it as a, an excuse to hammer that same police force. So just a little bit of, A little bit of context there in, in this situation, maybe if, these, cities were m. A little more supportive of police organizations or police officers, they might get the policing results that they say they don't get. I'm just throwing that out there.
>> Ed Vitagliano: All right, Steve.
OpenAI was testing its AI models to hack on the Internet
>> Steve Jordahl: All right. so we had talked a couple days ago about this, AI jailbreak. And I know we wanted to get Tony on this discussion. so OpenAI, the company, that is behind ChatGPT, was testing. It's in it, and it was testing the ability of its latest AI models to hack. And as you may recall, we talked about the models getting out of what's called the sandbox, which is a testing environment that's supposed to be airtight, but wasn't. We're finding out, via a new analysis that was published, yesterday, that it spent, four days, bouncing around the Internet. It carried out 17,600 hacking actions on the Internet between July 9th and July 13th. It finally found, an open door, or it hacked into a company called Hugging Face. And, it was able to find, these holes much faster than any humans were. They thought they were. They were fine. I talked to a guy named Jason Baker, who's at Regent University, who's an AI expert and he will help define a little bit of what the, sandbox. He'll define that and then he'll talk about testing, some of these models and why it's important that if we are testing for dangerous things, sometimes the test has to have a little bit of risk in there. But let's listen to cut 15.
>> Jason Baker: a sandbox is trying to create a safe space. You create an environment, you can actually have dangerous technology. But the intent is it can never leave the bounds of the sandbox. They thought that there were no vulnerabilities. they knew that there were doors, but they figured all the doors were locked and the technology didn't. The AI didn't have the keys. It found a hole. It went out to the Internet. It went to a company called Hugging Face, which hosts an awful lot of AI models out there, and it went to town on the Hugging Face systems in order to help itself beat this test. The real bad actors aren't going to allow themselves to be constrained. So at some point, if you're going to do testing, you need to do testing around the edges. This is significant because it shows the length that uncontrolled AI systems will go to achieve the goals that they have been given.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Tony, this is a bizarre story. Everything about this is science fictiony. Okay. I mean, from the first of all, Hugging Face makes me think of face huggers from aliens. Okay. I don't know where they got the name for that, but this is, this is almost like the AI version of gain of function research. What I was thinking about is that, and now you have an I T background, you're head of IT here. you've done it working before you came here. You know, you know, programming and coding and all that kind of stuff. This is disturbing that this AI program first of all seemed. I'm not, I'm using probably the wrong kind of words that it wanted to get out. I don't know whether these programs can want anything at this point. Anyway, it found a way out and then spent its time like sailors on a three to four day drunk in, in some city, going around causing trouble.
>> Tony Vitagliano: Right.
>> Speaker E: This is.
>> Ed Vitagliano: But, but this is far. I'm laughing because it just seems so strange that the wording was it spent four days out on the Internet and causing trouble.
>> Tony Vitagliano: Yeah, you know, and this is one of those situations. AI is one of those technologies that, I'm normally not for some government regulation and oversight, but this, I'm not alone in this. Elon Musk was, one of the
>> Tony Vitagliano: reasons why he left the company OpenAI, that went on to create chat GPT. And all that was, he had the same concerns, is that nobody involved in the creation of this technology was concerned about regulation or oversight. And what I mean by that is, is you need to put boundaries on what companies, should and should not be training their AIs to do and researching. because this is kind of what you get. It's similar. I thought the same thing. I thought about the gain of function. Ironically enough, what we've been discussing with, with COVID being developed in a, in a foreign laboratory and, and you know, being optimized and enhanced so that it could, you know, effectively transmit. It's, It's. That's what. Effectively what they were doing with this, this AI, they were putting it in a sandbox, lowering security settings so that it could get out within the sandbox. Right. They're testing to see, like, can this AI, if we remove some of the, within the sandbox, sandbox, some of the, some of the security features, can it find the way out? Well, it found its way out and more. so that's part of the danger you run into with this. and, and right now there's just no, there's just no oversight for these companies and the technology that they are, researching and, and training these AIs. And it's a, it's a, it's an arms race form. They want to. Who's. Who's going to be first to reach, AGI, you know, which is, what is that? it's artifact, artificial general intelligence. Artificial general intelligence. That's, that's, that's the race. And it's almost like a little reminiscent. This is hyperbolic, but a little reminiscent of like the nuclear arms race, you know, because, and maybe the government kind of is encouraging this because maybe we want to be the first ones to get the AGI, because we don't want China to have it, you know, because.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And that is a pressure coming from many in this country. I think even the Trump administration, they want us to get there first because the fear is if China gets there first, they win. Yeah, they can, they can shut everyone else down and it becomes like a
>> Tony Vitagliano: nuclear, It's a blackmail be used as a weapon. At that point, you would, you would use, you would. The threat would be that you would unleash it on your opponent and on your, your enemy, and it would wreak havoc in their systems. The danger, and this is why I keep going back to Oversight, the danger is that what happens if while you're trying to get there, it gets out and it does something like this to yourself. You do it to yourself. And it's. And here it is. M doing this in the wild. I mean, this Hugging Face was hosting AI models that belong to people. You could go to Hugging Face and
>> Tony Vitagliano: set up, create an AI model and feed it whatever, whatever information you wanted to. So it was going out and exposing. Had access to the information that its
>> Tony Vitagliano: users were putting into these AI models. They were running themselves.
>> Tony Vitagliano: Like, Hugging Face was basically hosting a model.
>> Tony Vitagliano: You know, if I want to use this, Claude or whatever, we'll host it for you. and so that, that's, I mean, that was a serious breach for those people, those users and their information. So that's why I say, again, I'm not, you know me, I'm not a big government person.
>> Speaker E: Right.
>> Tony Vitagliano: But in some instances, there should be some regulation or oversight. And I don't, I don't think there's enough of it right now. Which is why when you hear about things like this, it's kind of a big deal.
Tony Bennett: The whole concept of AI scares me
>> Fred Jackson: Yeah. and you kind of hit on this, Tony. There is a huge race right now between China and the United States. President Trump has stated a number of times we have to be the leader on this. And the reason saying we have to be because China will do it if we don't. And they're spending a lot of money. There's an announcement today in Paducah, Kentucky. They're going to build a big data center right there. and you know, it's going to be 3,000 construction jobs, 500 good jobs. When it's all done, there's some talk about, you know, what does it mean for electricity and water usage and all of those kinds of things. But it's a big deal right now for the Trump administration. The whole concept of AI scares me. I'm not an IT person like you are, Tony, but it scares me because of the power that's being unleashed that can be used for very bad things. You know, you mentioned a while ago about the cashless society.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah.
>> Fred Jackson: It just, you know, somebody presses a button. It's got your bank accounts.
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
>> Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
>> Fred Jackson: It's got everything that you own. And if it falls into a bad government hands m. that's what worries me a whole lot.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Well, and everything, our power grid, water supply, all of that. Transportation, airlines.
>> Fred Jackson: Yes.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Okay. I mean, there, there was a story.
>> Fred Jackson: American Airlines had to shut down for a few hours last night.
>> Ed Vitagliano: And, there's concern that that was because of some hack or some sort of AI problem or whatever. So we, we increasingly are dependent upon not just the Internet, but this, whole, digital world. And the concern is that someone's going to pull the plug and we're going to be back in the dark ages, because everything we've built, our modern life, is going to go down the drain, down the digital drain. How's that?
>> Fred Jackson: So keep some cash in your mattress, folks.
>> Ed Vitagliano: Yeah, if you, if, listen, if you're able to spend it, you can't even go to a cash register anyway. You can't buy. You can't buy a bag of chips without that cash register being tied into a bank. And, it's, So let me just toss this to you. We're almost out of time, Tony. Do you think we're eventually going to get to the place where we have to have AI defend us against AI bad actors?
>> Tony Vitagliano: yeah. I mean, you will rely on AI,
>> Tony Vitagliano: you know, as it's not going to be AIs battling each other. Don't think of it that way. You're going to utilize AI to analyze
>> Tony Vitagliano: a tremendous amount of all the data points that you need to analyze and vulnerabilities and, you know, just using simple language doors, to make sure that you're not being breached. You'll just. AI is, is useful for analyzing tremendous amounts of data and, and giving you the feedback you need. So that's, that's the sense. I do think that'll be used.
All right, very interesting topics today on American Family Radio
>> Tony Vitagliano: Okay for that.
>> Ed Vitagliano: All right, folks, very interesting topics today. Hope you enjoyed it. More great programming directly ahead on American Family Radio. And Lord willing, we'll see you right back here tomorrow.
