Welcome to America 250 on American Family Radio. This special program has been adapted from an episode of AFA at Home, which is [email protected] this episode was recorded at Wallbuilders Builders in Alito, Texas. Now, here's Walker Wildmon.

Walker Wildmon: Let's jump to the introduction of our guest. Many of these folks, all of them actually will be familiar to those of, you who listen to American Family Radio. Keep up with American family association. Steven McDowell is the first one that I'll introduce here, not in a particular order. Steven's founder and president of the Providence foundation and a George Washington expert. I can attest to that because I've read his book on George Washington, one of his books on George Washington. Steven has written extensively on America's founding history and fathers. He has been leading spiritual heritage tours with my dad, Tim for nearly three decades in Washington, D.C. williamsburg, Jamestown and Yorktown, among other places. And now Steven hosts a podcast on American Family Radio called America's Providential History. And I'm not upset. Steven hosts once a week and gets more ratings than I do on a show I host every day. and Rick and I host the show, but Steven, outpaces my podcast rankings.

Rick Green: so he outpaces both of us together.

Walker Wildmon: Exactly.

Rick Green: One against two, and he's still out there.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, we're both.

Stephen McDowell: That's because I'm twice as old as you guys.

Walker Wildmon: There you go. Yeah, I'm casting shade on Rick and I. speaking of Rick. Rick Greene is founder and president of Patriot Academy. A former Texas state legislator, also known as America's Constitution coach. He's also known for training thousands of young people, including myself, on how to become America's future patriotic leaders. And then lastly, Tim Barton, president of Wallbuilders Builders. Tim and his father David have been teaching pastors and legislators about America's true history for decades. Tim, along with his team at Wallbuilders Builders, hold one of the largest private collections of America's founding era documents. Tim has also co authored multiple books on America's beginnings. So that's my long introductions, but, let's start with this, Tim. What motivated the Pilgrims? What motivated folks to sell to America, the Americas, and found America?

Tim Barton: Yeah, I think anytime you look at a group of people, there's always going to be different motivations. But the overarching theme is of the early settlers in America was pursuing an opportunity for religious freedom. When, you look at what's happening in Europe, one of the things that people can point back to is like the Protestant Reformation. And there's some changes happening in Europe when it comes to religion. However, what's worth pointing out, even leading up to the Protestant Reformation, is that for a thousand plus years, Christianity was really kind of under one little envelope umbrella. And not that that's necessarily a problem, other than what became normal was the King or the Pope would begin to say, here's what Christianity and doctrine is. And so most people know, like Martin luther with his 95 thesis, he nailed to the door of the Church in Wittenberg, and he challenged some of the ideas, like, wait a second, we shouldn't have to be buying forgiveness of sins or paying to help people get out of purgatory sooner. If the Pope can forgive sins, he should do it now. If not, it's J. And there was actually a call to say, instead of just following what the King and Pope says, let's go back to what the Bible says. And even in the midst of the Reformation, when King Henry viii, not a reformer, but someone that broke away from the Church, he really wanted a son, and his wife kept giving him daughters. And he thought, the problem is my wife, I need a new wife. So he goes to the Pope and says, I need a divorce. And the Pope's like, that's crazy talk. You don't just get a divorce because you're not having a son and you want a son. And essentially the King says, well, then I don't want to be part of your church anymore. So the King says, I'm going to start my own church. He called it the Anglican Church. And he says, as the head of the Anglican Church, I will grant myself a divorce. Which he did. But it started a little bit of a notion of, kings beginning to break away, forming their own doctrine. And then what kings did is they enforced the doctrine down on everybody below them. So when you get to the Pilgrims, the Pilgrims have grown up under some of these Anglican ideals. And among those, there was actually restrictions on who could talk about the Bible or Jesus, how many people could be together. there was restrictions on the printing of Bibles, et cetera. And it's part of what leads the Pilgrims m to go to Holland, trying to find a little more freedom, a little less restriction under the King and ultimately coming to America. But it wasn't just. When people think of America today, they often think of freedom. Well, there were specific freedoms they were looking for, and it was specifically the freedom of religion, the freedom to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscience. That's what led the Puritans to America, after the Pilgrims. The pilgrims come in 1620, the Puritans, they're the ones that tried to purify the Church of England over the next decade, approximately. And finally they realized the Church of England doesn't want to be purified. And so there's the great puritan migration in 1630. There's about a thousand Puritans that come. It's estimated over the next 10 years, about 20,000 Puritans come to America. And this is what you begin to see is there are new colonies being formed by people escaping Europe looking for, more than anything else, religion, religious freedom, coming to America. So the American shores were the most heavily populated by people of faith looking for a place they could worship God without having the King micromanage how they had to do that.

Walker Wildmon: Wow. Steven, the trek over here, us folks, you know, nowadays wouldn't fully understand it. The whole sailing across the ocean with limited food and supplies. But this was no easy task. This was no like, hey, let's jump on a plane and if it doesn't work out, we'll just go back. Go back to the King, right? This was a pretty brutal environment, just from, a survival standpoint. So talk about some of the sacrifices they went through just to get over here.

Stephen McDowell: Well, William Bradford wrote a book every American ought to read of Plymouth Plantation, the first great historical and literary work written in America, about America, where he does, by the way, he mentions four things. Why they came. We want to be able to freely worship God according to the dictates of our conscience. We want an environment where we can raise our children in a godly manner. and the third thing, it's interesting, there's a lot of textbooks today that ignore the influence of God in their life, but some will kind of be magnanimous and say, okay, they came for religious and economic reasons. Well, the economic reason, as Bradford points out, it was so difficult in Holland economically that some of their brethren back in England said, we'd rather suffer in jail in England than come over to Holland because it's so difficult. So Bradford said, if we could find a place where it's going to economically prosper, all our brethren will come and worship God freely. That was their economic reason. Fourth, lastly, and which was not least, a great hope and inward zeal they had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make way thereunto for the propagating and advancing of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ. Those are the words of William Bradford. And so, as you said, they didn't have enough money to get here themselves. They had to in essence get a bunch of businessmen to back their adventure to enable them to come. 66 days they were at sea, half of which times the storms were so bad they couldn't come above deck, that they were blown providentially hundreds of miles north of their intended destination. They intended to sail the north part of Virginia, but when they sighted land they were up at Cape Cod, tried to sail south, couldn't do to the weather. The captain said, you guys are getting off right here. And so that's why we have Plymouth in Massachusetts where they settled. But they were faced with a winter in NewSong England. I was just there that last week on the Cape Cod and there was a blizzard out there. So this is what they had to endure with no one to welcome them. Five kernels of corn was their daily ration during one of those winters. Then they had. They were met with by Native Americans, some rather fill their sides full of arrows then help them, as Bradford would say. And they brought their whole families with them. Because we're going to find a place, we're going to follow God's leading. We believe that we are going to be even as stepping stones, Bradford said, so that others like the Puritans could come and establish this free land of America built upon Christian self government, Christian liberty. That was the vision they had. We're going to build a whole new society that honors God and we benefit from that today.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, Rick, I don't think that America survives another 50, 100, 250 years without a true appreciation, at least by a, maybe not a majority, but a large amount of the populace. An understanding and an appreciation for what Tim and Steven are talking about here. Because this is true sacrifice. And so this is why we do what we do, so people understand America's true history.

Rick Green: Well, a couple things I'm thinking about, but the sacrifice that you guys are talking about. 150 years later, Thomas Paine will say in an American crisis, what we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly. And I think what you just said is exactly where we are. We've obtained our freedom, our generation very cheap and so we esteem it very lightly. And so the 250th gives us a chance to be reminded of this sacrifice, reminded of this foundation, so that we know what we have truly is valuable and frankly redefine what we have. Instead of. Tim, you said it, you know, not just this freed anything and everything. What freedom were they really coming here for? And it was that Freedom to worship. If we don't get back to those definitions and teach those things. I think you're right. We won't have another 250 years should the Lord tarry. We have all the right ingredients, all the right principles are there. But it's up to us to rediscover this history and then put these principles back in place.

Stephen McDowell: You make a good point. We need to define what is liberty. Yeah, true, the modern mindset is I'm free to do whatever I want to do. but biblical liberty is freedom to do the will of God, freedom to pursue the will of God. When Jefferson used in the Declaration of Independence, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Of course, the well known phrase was life, liberty and property. But William Blackstone, the great English jurist, in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, explains what the pursuit of happiness means. It means being free to pursue the will of God. Because when you do the will of God, that produces happiness. This is what liberty is. Not do whatever I want, but to do what I ought to do. And if you're a believer with God's word planted in your heart, you know what you ought to do. That's true liberty for sure.

Tim Barton: And this is one of the things too. Walker, as we're having this conversation, I know we're going to eventually get up to the founding fathers and what laid the foundation for them and where they went. But to this point of even what liberty looks like or freedom of religion looks like, it's worth noting that when you look at the early colonies that are settled and established. So 1607, you, have the Jamestown Colony, 16, 20, you have the Plymouth colony, as it were. And as more colonies are added, Finally, Georgia in 1730 gets added in all 13 colonies. One of the things that was enshrined in all 13 colonies, well, they called it the Decalogue. We call it the Ten Commandments. And it's interesting, and none of the early colonies, where there are more than 15 crimes for which someone could be put to death. But the reason I bring this up is because in all of the colonies, one of the things that consistently you could be put to death for was violating portions of the Ten Commandments. So some of their execution laws were violating the Ten Commandments. And why that matters is because the beginning of the Ten Commandments is about who God is and we don't worship another God and there's no idols. And so this idea of having the freedom of religion, that's true, but defining that becomes important because also, and I know this is a little different, but going to the First Amendment, when we talk about the establishment of religion, the founders view of the establishment of religion was we're not going to make everybody be Anglicans or Baptists or Congregationalists. But they understood there's a Christian idea, there's a Christian worldview that's the foundation of this. And the reason it matters is when people today suggest, well, the freedom of religion means that Islam should have free reign in America too. That's absolutely incorrect. Based on what the founding fathers thought. In fact, things like practicing Islam, depending on what that means in Sharia law, those are things that might have got you the death penalty. In the early colonies they didn't believe the freedom of religion the way it's portrayed today. They believe m the freedom of religion to worship God based on what the Bible says. Not based on what the King said about the Bible. No, the Bible says this. We want to worship God this way. That's the foundation of our nation. The reason we've been the most stable, prosperous, arguably blessed and benevolent nation in the history of the world is because of the foundation of God's word. Freedom in America will not remain if we don't maintain the biblical foundation. And right now the biblical foundation is under threat from secularists, but also from Islamists who want to replace it with a different political structure and standard.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, you're right. And this system that America has, I think we could all agree, doesn't work under any other worldview. No, you place the American Constitution, Bill of Rights and all of our common law, et cetera, under Islam or even atheism, et cetera. It just doesn't work. There's way too many conflicts, and we would fail to exist as a country as we know it.

Stephen McDowell: You know, historically, the founders wrote about this. Historically, where Islam predominates, there is no liberty. It's where the biblical Christianity has gone that has produced great liberty. You know, President Andrew Jackson said that the Bible is the rock upon which our republic rests. This is easy to show because There is over 100 different constitutions, compacts and charters written in colonial America. About 80 written in America, a couple of dozen written outside of America. You read through those. Every one of them mentions Christian faith, Christian God, propagating the gospel because they understood what the Bible teaches, that biblical Christianity produces flourishing, personal, economic, familial, civil, political. That is the source of civil liberty. Over and over and over again our founders talked about that. So they wouldn't have thought about introducing Islam or any other religion. It's a false religion. Just look up the definition in Webster original 1828 dictionary that true religion is the Christian faith because it emanates from the Creator, the true God. And it works. History affirms that the Bible teaches to the degree that people apply the principles of the God's Word in every sphere of life. It produces flourishing, in those areas. That's what we need to learn today and pass that on to our children.

Rick Green: I just want to jump on it works because I'm a simple guy and I'm looking at results and I'm going, okay, just like you said. The founders even looked at these Islamic nations and said, there's no liberty there. So it's shocking to me that people don't want to live in a country where people treat their neighbors the way they want to be treated. Well, that's a Christian principle. I mean, that produces good neighbors. So we know the formula works, We've seen the result, and it's good for everybody.

Walker Wildmon: Even those who don't.

Rick Green: Even those who don't. Yeah. So if you want to make America great again, you better figure out what made us great in the first place. And this is it.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's fast forward a little bit. All right, we were in, colonial America, talking about the Pilgrims. What drove them over here? let's fast forward to the Revolutionary War. And what was the justification for fighting a war? for independence, so that we could be what we are today? I know there's a lot of directions we can go, but generally speaking, what were some of the primary motivations for any of you guys that drove, those like George Washington to say, hey, we need independence from Britain?

Tim Barton: So one of the things that is worth noting, there was a historian named Alice Baldwin who was a professor at Duke University back in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. She started the woman's program in 1928. She wrote a book called the NewSong England Clergy and the American Revolution. And she's writing this book. It's the beginning of the Progressive era, and it's worth noting. She kind of starts off and says, these modern professors are leaving out one of the most important parts of the foundation of the nation. And it's the influence that pastors had in the founding. As you go through a book, it's 170something pages, but at the end there's a five page conclusion. And this is available online. People can order their own copy or they can read it online themselves. And even if you only have time for the Five page conclusion. It's totally worth the read. But one of the lines from the conclusion, she says, there is not a clause of the Declaration which had not been first preached by the American clergy prior to 1763. Which is interesting because she's saying every single idea in the Declaration came from pastors more than a dozen years before the Declaration was even written. But what's amazing about this, and again, it isn't her conclusion. She goes on to point out, the Founding Fathers didn't come up with a single unique idea. Rather, they were repeating and re emphasizing the ideas they had been learning and culture around them. Hearing these repeated in their churches, their pastors were saying it from the pulpits. But what's amazing about her book is at the end of her conclusion, she has an appendix section. And the appendix, she begins to list pastors and put excerpts of their sermons, which actually have the clauses from the Declaration, which is amazing. But the reason I say this is because as much as, again, if you're talking about millions of people involved in a conflict, there's going to be millions of ideas of motivation. But the resounding theme that historians have repeated over and over and over is not only was it the influence of Christianity that led them to where they landed, it was actually the influence of the pastors who were leading the thought ideas. everything the Founding Fathers did were informed by pastors before virtually anybody else. Pastors were the ones shaping the thinking of the Founding Fathers, even, arguably, some of the least religious. Because we could talk about, like, if, Franklin wasn't very religious comparatively. I think if you read some of his writings, he was more outspoken on faith than many pastors are today. But it's worth noting that Franklin, actually, in his own Journal in 1739, is when he first writes about this encounter. But he says, there's this new guy in town. He's fascinating. It was George Whitefield, pastor, right? George Whitefield, the major leader from the first Great Awakening, shows up. Franklin over the next decades becomes so impressed with Whitefield. Franklin builds an addition on his house, asks Whitfield to live with him. He says, hey, most of these people are not up, to my intellectual speed. You kind of are. Would you hang out with me more? But the reason I point this out is even the least religious guys we can historically track not only their direct connection to pastors, even their own acknowledgement of how influential the pastors were in their own thinking. So the question of, like, what influenced the Founding Fathers? I would argue the pastors were the most influential Voice in the founding era more than anybody else. What say you?

Stephen McDowell: I agree with you. You know, one early historian summarized early America this way. He said the people made the laws. Now this was unique in history. Most people lived under ruler's law. Rulers made the law, imposed them on the people. The people had nothing to say. And they said, but in America the people made the laws. And then the historian said the church made the people. So the church developed the character and worldview in the people to know how to construct good and godly law and want to live under it. And just read the Declaration of Independence. That second paragraph reflects this biblical training. When they said we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So, so what motivated them is they recognize our rights are God given, they come from God, they emanate from him. They're not given by government, they're not given by man, hence they can't be taken away. They're given by God and we will stand and defend our rights and liberty. So when they're violated, when their rights as Christian citizens, when their rights as British citizens, where the rights as men of the earth were violated, as Sam Adams wrote about in his famous document of 1772, when they're violated, we're going to take action. We're not going to sit back and let them run over us. So they began, they took biblical measures to resist the tyrant. And the pastors taught them this. Their steps, you protest and take legal actions. They began to do that way early, at least 10 years before the fighting started in the war. They were protesting. Read the Declaration of Independence. All the things the king did, he did this, this and this and one. He taxed them without their cons and they said this is not right, you're violating our rights. We're protesting. And they did that for 10 years. The second step is flee. You protest, then you flee. By the way, the Bible teaches these steps too. They had thought we had already done that. We fled from Europe and here's the long arm of tyranny reaching across the sea. And then the very last thing is you use force and self defense. So they protested for years and then finally the king backed them in a corner and fired upon them at Lexington and Concord. They were just standing there and then it was a defensive war and a just cause they believed was sinless. And they were there ready to defend their God given rights and liberties because they recognized the value of that, Americans today need to do that.

Tim Barton: Will you add, too, the part of Jonas Clark and what he teaches the congregation? Because even what Captain Parker says, right, it's on the stone there. Really fun. We got to be there last year, maybe again this fall, we'll be back, up in Boston. But Jonas Clark is the pastor there at Lexington Greene. He's the one teaching the people. Will you tell a little bit about his story, and kind of the framework that's even on stone there?

Stephen McDowell: Well, Jonas Clark was the pastor of a church in Lexington. And you know, on that day.

Rick Green: This is dangerous, by the way, because by the time Steven McDowell gets done with this, I'm going to be grabbing one of the Barton's muskets over there, ready to charge some hill. No, I'm sorry.

Walker Wildmon: Go ahead.

Stephen McDowell: I know, Rich. So it was, that morning, April 19, 1775. The British troops marched in that day. Eight were killed, ten were wounded men on Lexington Greene. And Lexington Greene right away was the lawn of the church, Jonas Clark's church. That's where the fighting had begun. Most of those men that died were members of his church because he had been teaching, as you pointed out, for years. All right, we protested, but we've got to be ready to defend ourselves if it comes to it. So when they turned out that morning, the British fired upon them. It's called the shot heard round the world. Jonas Clark said, from this day shall be dated the liberty of the world, because this instituted our war of independence. And we won that war providentially because of God's hand in our life. And because of that, we became a unique new nation never seen before. And we have been an example to the nations of the world, of, free nations. God, I believe, in his providence, used America as an example, as a light, a city set upon a hill for the furtherance of his kingdom and his gospel. And we've seen that, since that time. But it's Jonas Clark, members of his church, they were fired upon. They were prepared for that very hour because he had instructed them for years

Rick Green: and because of the biblical instruction that Captain Parker was willing to say, don't fire, unless fired upon. But I think there's a really good take home message here. The first one was, of course, we don't get another 250 years unless we come back to these biblical foundations. The second thing is the church has got to be strong for liberty to be strong in our country. If we don't have that biblical instruction so that we know how to properly Protest how to properly resist tyranny, then it's going to lead to chaos, which then leads to tyranny. So in other words, if we don't have the biblical instruction of how to properly live out our liberty, we'll end up in communism, Marxism, Islam, some other ism that's going to dominate people. It's only in a strong church environment that you have actual liberty.

Tim Barton: Well, and two worth noting, like, even this idea that it was a defensive war because that they believe God doesn't give you the authority to go on offense. And this goes back to just war theory. You can go back to Augustine and write, lots of early writings in kind of church history. But it's interesting that what they were doing to defend. They didn't show up with their guns until the British said, we're coming to take your guns and your gunpowder away. And that's when they're like, yeah, you can't have these. That's where they drew the line in the sand. Because there's a lot of people today, very impassioned patriots who are like, let's just get our guns. Well, that's dumb. For lots of reasons. Like, lots of reasons. That's dumb. But also recognizing, like, where is the line in the sand? The line in the sand wasn't our taxes are too high. It wasn't. You're keeping soldiers in my home, making me, I mean, go through the grievances. There was 27 grievances on there. And the majority of those, that. That's not what actually led to bloodshed. What led to bloodshed? And again, it's pointed out, they didn't fire the first round. What led to bloodshed is when the British showed up and said, we're taking all your guns and gunpowder away. And they're like, yeah, you can't have our guns. Because one of the things historically we can track very easily. When dictators come to power, one of the first things they do is they disarm the people. Why? Because now there's nobody that can oppose.

Walker Wildmon: Then you're defenseless.

Tim Barton: Right. The will. And so this wasn't even something. And, you can go back to the Founding Fathers, they over and over say that we're not looking for a war or trouble. In fact, that's why even when you come to the vote for independence, there were many important Founding Fathers that would not vote for independence because they thought, that's too far. We're not there yet.

Rick Green: We haven't done enough to try to. Right.

Tim Barton: Many other Founding Fathers were like, brother, they got troops in our streets. And this is where Patrick Henry, right. As part of his famous give me liberty, give me that speech, he says they're sending over more troops. They're not doing that to come give us hugs and kisses.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah. This is it.

Tim Barton: Right.

Rick Green: This is Reverend another Pastor Witherspoon. They're not only ripe, but rotting.

Tim Barton: Right. It's time they recognize. And again, even the founding Fathers were divided. M. The majority of them were on the side of. Now was the time they're already firing at us like, what more proof do you need but backing up this idea? These were not people looking for revolution. These were people that wanted as much as possible, peaceable, amicably, to settle this. And I'm saying this because I do think there's some rising emotional urge in America today and I think there's a lot of things, tension that are increasing it. And I think we have to be very prudent in what we do and walk with a lot of wisdom. Right. Wise as serpents, innocent as doves. When the time comes, by all means we should be courageous enough to stand up and defend what needs to be defended. But we shouldn't go looking for trouble. The majority of the founding Fathers were not looking for trouble. There might be a couple exceptions, like maybe Jon Adams, he was looking for trouble. There's a few of them that might have been. But the majority of the founding Fathers were not looking for revolution. It was forced upon them is the

Walker Wildmon: way they did it was a very sobering thing.

Tim Barton: Right.

Stephen McDowell: Let me add, they also understood if we're resisting a tyrant, which they were, we have to implement what they called interposition. Interposition is finding a lower legitimate official to champion your cause. You work through legitimate officials when you're resisting the higher illegitimate person. That's why it was their local representatives.

Tim Barton: Yes.

Stephen McDowell: On the state and local levels who stood up and said, yes, the king is violating our God given rights. So. So it's an important lesson for us today. We don't just pick up arms because we have a tyrant ruler. You got to calculate the cost. One Jesus said, and if I'm going to lose, why even take up the battle? But you always want to work through legitimate officials who will support you in the cause.

Rick Green: And doing that biblically also prevents you from having the French Revolution, the mob rule. Instead you're going through this organized biblical process to the right way.

Stephen McDowell: Yeah. And remember, 10 years at least they've been protesting, fired upon. In April 75, 14 months of fighting, they were, you know, fighting then July of 1776. Only then. And by the way, in December of 75, the king kicked them out. Said, I've had enough kicking you out. They were in what they would call a state of nature that he had abdicated his governance over them. So then they had no choice. We've got to form some kind of government. And then even hesitantly, because they were very principled thinking individuals. And, this is the greatest example of a Christian revolution that there is in history that we can learn a lot from. They weren't rebels. Let's just have a big pull out our guns and shoot everybody. It wasn't that at all. Very principled.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah. One question I want to make sure we get to. Of the founding fathers, if you had to pick one figure during the founding era, which technically it could be a non founding father as well, that was the most pivotal to winning the Revolutionary War.

Stephen McDowell: That's an easy answer. Everybody has the same.

Rick Green: Wrote a book on a guy, maybe George something.

Stephen McDowell: George Washington, obviously was the most influential guy, the world's apostle of liberty. Without Washington, no American Revolution, no constitutional convention, no U.S. constitution, no limited government. He was epitome of what it means

Rick Green: to be a godly leader and no servant leadership model. Right.

Stephen McDowell: Instead of just. He was grabbing power, just a marvelous guy. And he was a man of providence, regardless of what people think today. You know, in 1778, he wrote, after three years of fighting, looking back over the war, he said that any man that does not recognize the hand of providence in all these events is worse than an infidel and more than wicked. Later on, he said, he's bad indeed. So when I wrote a biography of Washington, I didn't want him to indict me. So I highlight the providence of God in his words and in his life because I didn't want to call me worse than an infidel that lacks faith and more than wicked. Decades earlier, he wrote to his brother and rebuked him because I heard you weren't in church on the Sabbath, so why weren't you there? M. You ought to be like me, going to church and worshiping. Go. So, he wasn't very overtly a man who declared his faith all the time, but he was a man who was strong. And those who knew him best, who grew up in his home, his granddaughter, adopted daughter, and secretary Tobias Lear and others acknowledged, here is a man of faith. And so it was his Christian faith that was key to his career and his accomplishments. All that he did, he would, acknowledge that very thing.

Rick Green: Now, once we get Beyond Washington, there's so many good options. So I got to ask you to repeat the question. So were you asking for the most influential in what caused us to declare independence or win the war or most pivotal.

Walker Wildmon: Most pivotal in winning the Revolutionary War?

Rick Green: Okay.

Tim Barton: All right.

Rick Green: Not just in starting. I got to do an honorable honorable mention in what led to the. Or, kind of motivated the people. Or Dr. Joseph Warren. Because a lot of the ones that we lost in the war we don't talk about as much. And so there were guys that were just pivotal in being able to articulate what we were fighting for and why we were fighting. So in, in Boston, I, I got to throw Dr. Warren in there. And they cut him down at 34. I consider him the Charlie Kirk of the revolution. And so his speeches were absolutely out of this world. Amazing. Ronald Reagan used them in his inaugural addresses. So I just want to throw him in as an honorable mention. It's a great one. He didn't help us win the war ultimately because we lost at Bunker Hill, but.

Walker Wildmon: Well, and we want folks to go look up some of these names that are lesser known.

Rick Green: Go read his speech. He did two of the speeches on the anniversary of.

Walker Wildmon: What was his name again?

Rick Green: Boston Massacre. Dr. Joseph Warren. And they're incredible.

Stephen McDowell: And Samuel Adams has to be mentioned. He's, called the father of the American Revolution because he had been working way back in the 1750s, traveling around at the universities, mentoring and training youth like you're doing the Patriot Academy training youth. Because he recognized we've got to produce the seed.

Rick Green: And he was a bit of a rabble rouser. I think I just found a new hero. Yeah, this is.

Stephen McDowell: Look him up up. So he was key in laying the groundwork for when these events took place. People saw and recognized and were ready to take action.

Tim Barton: I'm going to add a couple of names just for people to look up when the revolution starts. we don't have any kind of funding. And so a lot of the founding fathers themselves took out loans, used their own funds to pay for militias, to pay for the cause. But you have guys. The two people considered the financiers of the revolution early on were Robert Morse, but then a Jewish man named Haim Salomon. And they're the ones that secured some of the first loans to be able to fund the Continental army and things we were doing. And so those are. Robert Morse was signed of the Declaration. So he's a known figure. A lot of people don't know who Haim Solomon was, but there's a very famous statue of George Washington shaking two people's hands. Well, he's shaking the hands of the guys that helped fund the revolution, and it was Robert Morris and Haim Solomon. So. So without the early funding, it would have been hard for the revolution to happen because you can't pay troops and they're not going to stay and they're going home. So there were some basic things early on. But I would also go back and point out, like Rick did with Joseph Warren. Joseph Warren was one of the guys who was the inspiration of the Sons of Liberty committees of correspondent. Joseph Warren is a, friend to so many of the Founding Fathers, and so his leadership was incredibly influential. Well, a guy in that same vein was the Reverend George Whitefield, specifically. Not that he was necessarily a friend to all the Founding Fathers, but he was a guy that actually his influence was felt by the Founding Fathers. because when you go back, the first time the Founding Fathers came together was September 6th, 1774. there's a great letter from Jon Adams to Abigail where he's recounting the story, and he says that the first motion made was made by Thomas Cushing of Massachusetts, and it was that we should open with prayer. And this was met with much disagreement because in the room there were people. When the early colonists came, the colonies were formed largely by certain denominational sects. And so that's this colony at the time of the founding fathers. Nine of the 13 colonies and state established religions. So the colonies were very much, centralized around a specific doctrine of belief. And part of what they had learned up to that point was that these other denominations are a threat to us because of what they saw in England or over in Europe, where the king might use that religious belief to, tyrannically impose or limit things for the people of faith. And so they, they didn't get along as people of faith. And as Jon Adams points out, and

Rick Green: other people wrote about, Jews have turf wars. You know, I know this is shocking.

Tim Barton: This is shocking, but to the extent where Jon Adams is like, we weren't sure we could even pray together because we had people. the Congregationalists were descendants of the Pilgrims and Puritans. And then you have the Anglicans and Episcopalians that are more the high church, but the Congregationalists, their grandparents literally ran away from the Anglicans in Europe. And now you have the Anglicans in Virginia and you have Congregationalists, and they're like, we're not sure. This is like, we're not going to work together. And at this point, Sam Adams stood up and again, he's one of the great guys to know. He's so good for so many reasons. He's so misunderstood today for lots of reasons. He's brilliant though. But he stood up and said, I'm no bigot. And as long as we have someone that fears God and loves our country, we ought to be able to unite under that. The reason that matters is the founding fathers. So many of them identified George Whitefield as being influential on some level. But guys like Thomas Jefferson, like Jon Adams, even Benjamin Franklin, all of them talked about a specific sermon that Whitefield gave and it was known as the Father Abraham sermon. In the sermon, the way it's accounted from the Founding fathers is Whitefield said that he had a vision and he went to heaven. And Father Abraham met him at the gates and he said, father Abraham, I'm so excited. I want to meet my Methodist brethren. Because Whitefield was considered the founder of the Methodist Church. And Abraham says, there's no Methodist in heaven. And he's taken back. Well, Whitefield's also friends with the Wesley brothers. And so he says, well, where are my Wesleyan brothers? And Abraham says, there's no Wesleyans in heaven. And Whitefield says, well, where's the Baptist? There's no Baptists in heaven. Where are the congregations? And he goes through all these denominations and Abraham every time says, there's none of them in heaven. And so he says, so I finally asked Father Abraham, then who makes into heaven? George Whitefield looks at the crowd, he says, brethren, you shall have the answer in my next text. And he went to Acts and read that he that would be approved by God must fear God and work righteousness. And he looked up and said, God help us to forget our titles, our denominations, and focus on what the Bible actually says. That was a sermon that was credited with actually helping bring unity to overcome the denominational separation differences. And that's what Jon Adams is kind of alluding to when Sam Adams stands up and says, I'm no bigot, as long as we choose someone that fears God and loves his country, it's fine. Well, Sam Adams is a Congregationalist, a descendant from the Puritans and Pilgrims, and he suggested the Anglican, the local Anglican pastor, the guy that generally his people are the most against. But the reason it matters is, has it not been for the foundation that George Whitefield laid? And George WHITEFIELD, in his seven missionary journeys in America, the 30 plus years he preached, he delivered estimated 18,000 sermons. It's estimated 80% of Americans physically heard him preach. Had it not been for the groundwork that George Whitefield laid America, the founding fathers, they probably don't unite. And if they don't unite, we never get to the revolution. So I would say not only are there names worth noting, like Ahim Solomon, who helps bring funding the revolution, but even guys like George Whitefield that so often the obvious name. Which is correct. George Washington. That's the obvious and correct answer. You can include a Thomas Jefferson. You can include a Jon Hancock, a Franklin. There's a lot of names. Totally.

Rick Green: I'm just helping the Virginian out here.

Walker Wildmon: I think we should just read off all the signers right now.

Tim Barton: Right. But there's a lot of names that we don't have validity that should be included. But then there's guys that are overlooked today. And yet without their influence, it's possible we go a very different direction and we never would have become a nation had it not been for the foundation of Whitefield.

Rick Green: And I would recommend people just start reading stories because there's so many unsung heroes that we don't talk about. You know, and these guys have written

Walker Wildmon: incredible books, multiple books on this.

Rick Green: Yeah. So many of these unknown names, you know, Peter Francisco and Dicey Langston and Sybil Luddington. And so you can find, you know, teenage girls that were heroes at moments and orphaned boy. I mean, just incredible stories. Because sometimes when we only talk about Washington or Whitefield or whatever, people think, well, I'm not a Washington or I'm not a Whitfield, so what can I do for the next two 50th? And we just want everybody to know you've got a role to play in this as well. So.

Walker Wildmon: So let's fast forward a little bit throughout America's history. I want to talk about times where obviously some of us weren't alive or probably for a lot of these events, none of us were alive. But times throughout American history where you look back and you go, I'm just not sure. People at the time were thinking, I'm not sure we're going to make it through this. I'm not sure what we've overcome in the past. Yeah. Whether it's the world wars, whether it's the Civil War, there's all kinds of events throughout American history when you have a 250-year-old nation. but what times do you guys think, looking back over the last 250 years, what times do you think post revolutionary war, post independence, you look back and go, we barely made it.

Rick Green: I Don't know. Steven, what was it like in the Civil War?

Walker Wildmon: He's our elder, but he's not that old.

Stephen McDowell: Those muskets were heavy.

Rick Green: That's a great question, guys, because,

Stephen McDowell: you know, I want to say there are many incidences. Obviously, the Civil War was a very challenging time. But, you know, to me, I think that the most dangerous time is that which was not recognized as a dangerous time. I would say, in particular the rise of secularism, in the nation, is what happened, you know, a fundamental question Americans should be asking, every nation should be asking, is, who is the source of the law of your society? It's fundamental because the source of the law of a society is the God of that society. The source of law in America was the Bible. It's easy to show. Read the early laws, constitutions, it's certainly true. But what happened? Gradually, for a lot of different reasons, we began to shift. No longer do we look to the absolutes of God's word, the Creator, as our founders did. We began to look to man. And in the, 1920s, a guy named Roscoe Pound was the president of Harvard Law School School, and he recognized the Christian foundation of Law. He did not attack it directly, but this is what he did. In his book the Spirit of Common Law, he said, yeah, Christianity has been good, that ancient law, to get us to this point, but it only can take us so far. If we're going to go continue to advance, we need to come up with a different foundation, a different set. So what he suggested is that we need the consensus of man to determine what our law is going to be. And he said that in this condition, the state takes the place of Jehovah. And that's what's happened. We have cast aside the absolutes of God's law. We have embraced man's law. Or as that Chief justice said back in the 1930s, the Constitution is whatever we say it is. And we've looked to the wisdom of man. We will decide what's right or wrong. We will decide what's moral or immoral, lawful or unlawful. That is the greatest danger that we are facing and battling today. And most Americans don't even know it's a danger. And if we don't deal with that, we'll never turn the nation around and see the vision that the founders had for building a free society succeed.

Rick Green: It's actually the greatest threat to us, unfortunately, potentially fulfilling what Rabbi Lapin talks. Rabbi Daniel Lapan talks about this all the time. Most great cultures and societies fall apart. At 250. So here we are at our 250. It's about 240 to 260. And we're at our 250th. And if we fall apart, it's going to be because we went towards this. Everybody decide for yourself what's right or wrong. Your feelings matter more than the facts, and it causes everything to decay. So we really do have a chance to revive those foundations that made us last 250 years in the first place, if we remember what they are. But I think what you're getting at is the hope that we need to know that we can overcome this great threat before us. And certainly we've had times. I mean, you know, honestly, you think about civil war, we're literally shooting. Brother is shooting, brother. We're at war on the streets. Hundreds of thousands of people are dying. I'm sure they had days where they thought, you know, this is not going to last. That's one reason I rank Lincoln as the second most important president, because he did hold it together in, what was our most difficult time. But I think today what you just said is the real threat.

Walker Wildmon: Well, then people don't view it. Some people don't view it as a threat because there's not blood in the streets.

Rick Green: Right. You know, it's why Islam now is a cultural jihad, not a kinetic jihad. In other words, they're not going to be, you know, trying to do suicide vests right now. What they're going to do is try to take us over from the inside.

Walker Wildmon: But the end result of this secular humanism is the same as having a bloody war over communism, you know?

Tim Barton: Well, and even because of secular humanism, that has actually led us to some of the cultural Marxism, which is what BLM rights were about about. It's what some of the riots right now we've seen in Minnesota, right, earlier in the year. The reason that has existed is because of the secular humanism, the cultural Marxism that's come in. And so it's not a lot different than looking back and seeing some of. Right. Maybe your boss to master kind of things. Now, I would obviously say that they were on a totally different side than what goes on, but in the sense of bloodshed in the streets, we're not an open armed combat between militaries, which is ultimately happened in the Civil War, but it's not that dissimilar from some of the other moments we've seen. And Steven, I think you're exactly right. The greatest threat now is that most people have no idea. We're in the middle of a cultural war, so that's incredibly important. But Walker, I think maybe to put a little bow on some of maybe. I think kind of what you're pointing out, the question might be, is, have we navigated times like this before? It's worth noting that there are many moments where America's been incredibly divided. Maybe not more divided, outwardly apparent than the Civil War, but what's also just. There's an interesting parallel that happens historically. Every 20, 30, 40, 50 years, there is a major move of God in America where there's a major revival in America. And what's interesting is that some of the most divided and secular moments in America are in the middle of major revivals. It's really interesting because, the easiest example I'll give first, but then I'll give a couple others. If you go to the Second Great Awakening, arguably 1800, till about the Civil War.

Rick Green: Right.

Tim Barton: Is arguably Second Great Awakening time. This is when Charles Finney, in the 1820s and 30s, he's the most noted evangelist from Second Great Awakening. He was incredibly useful in God's kingdom, the way we might evaluate that. But there was one year alone where more than 100,000 people converted to Christianity under his ministry and leadership. So the guy is amazing. Well, in the midst of his ministry, the 1820s and 30s, it's also one of the most politically divided times we've ever been in America. And it's so divided that in the 1830s, starting then to the 1840s, every major denomination in America split in the midst of a revival. Which is interesting because one of the things historically we can document is that some of the greatest times of division also parallels some of the greatest moving of God. And the reason this is important is because anytime God's on the move, we know the devil is trying to counter God's move. And what's kind of worth addressing in this First Great Awakening wasn't times of unity. George Whitefield, the most noted leader, he wasn't invited to speak in hardly any churches. His first two decades of ministry, people saw him as a threat. And so he would go play the. We don't want that guy here. America was a divided nation. The First Great Awakening brought unity. The Second Great Awakening, very similar, brought unity, but it brought unity after great conflict. But what's interesting about, like, the First Great Awakening, God's move, it was not a move of unity. It was a move of clarity, where truth and morality were debated. Ultimately, truth and morality prevailed, but it prevailed after incredible conflict, incredible division, again, because God was moving, but the devil was moving. But we can track this to the present because you can go to the 1960s and 70s where the Jesus movement happened. There was a great movie that came out last year kind of tracking some of this. Unquestionably, God was on the move. But in the 1960s and 70s, this is also when you have, like, the sexual revolution. There's lots of things going on. There was always counterculture movement. What's worth noting about this, and the reason I bring it up now, is because I think we are in the middle of another outpouring of God on this nation. I think it was very obvious. The Charlie Kirk memorial, where there's 100 million people livestreaming the biggest church service we've ever seen, right. In our lifetime. I mean, eight hours of worship in the Word primarily, obviously, a few deviations, but generally speaking, it was incredible. And then if you look at the last couple years, there's been revivals on college campuses, baptisms, thousands of people getting saved. God is on the move in the nation. And if you look for it, it's very obvious and apparent, but it's also obvious that we're in m the midst of a major battle. And I think one of the things that gives me hope historically, but also recognizing the challenge. Not every revival turned into an awakening. In fact, if you go back to the 1960s and 70s, it's clearly a move of God, and yet it didn't stop the cultural decline and moving in a direction of the sexual revolution. Whatever else, the reason it was different in the founding era, going back to the most noted voice in the founding era as a unified voice, was the pastors. The reason the awakenings were different is they emphasized the cultural application of the Word of God. We would call that discipleship. When you go to the last 150 years revivals, whether you go to the Billy Sundays, the DL Moody's, right, whatever it is, most of the emphasis that we've seen in the modern perspective has been an emphasis on evangelism, not discipleship. And I think where there is reason to be hopeful is I think there are more people now interested in discipleship than we've ever seen in our life. Like a rising generation, young men that want to be, discipled. That's so encouraging, because I think what makes a difference historically, God has consistently, faithfully poured out his spirit every 20, 30, 40, 50 years in our nation's history. And his grace and mercy.

Rick Green: Thank you, Lord.

Tim Barton: he's doing it Again. And the reason the first and second awakening were so impactful and ultimately changed the course and direction of the nation is because people were being discipled in the Word. They took the Word they applied to their daily life, and they changed the culture around them. Whereas for a lot of what we've seen the last 150 years, there's been a lot of personal conversion, which has been incredible. Individuals did amazing things. God clearly moved and did things. But there was a minimization of the impact on the culture because a lot of times it was for me what God did for me. And I'm going to read the Bible and I'm going to grow spiritually but not apply it. I think we are in the midst of not only God pouring out himself and a move of God in our nation, but I think we're also in the midst of some discipleship happening where and I think maybe because of COVID m impetus, more pastors are speaking out and teaching people how to apply the Bible in cultural ways than ever before. So I think historically, we've been very divided as a nation many times, and God in his grace has poured out himself many times. But I think what's encouraging now is it's not real dissimilar from the first and second great awakening where America was divided. I mean, we're seeing riots in the streets. I mean, news flash, right? Go back to the 1830s and 40s, bloody Kansas. There were some really rough times in the midst of some amazing revivals. But two things were true at once. God was on the move. There was a counter push by the devil, but because people were being discipled, the people that were discipled were able to overcome the spiritual opposition, what was going on. And I think that's where we are, but only if we can emphasize discipleship. Which is why I want to bring this up. Because for everybody watching and listening, this is a big deal for us that we don't just focus on teaching people who Jesus is, but maybe teaching them more how to live like Jesus. That discipleship application becomes far more important. And I think that's why, when I look where we are historically, I'm not as discouraged as some people are. Partly. Also, I think if you read numbers, you should always go, I'm going to be Joshua and Caleb, not the other 10 people. We don't even know their names, right? Like, there's always a God who can overcome the giants of the land. So we always want to believe in that God and we want to have that mindset of Joshua and Caleb. So there's a reason to be encouraged, even though we're in the middle of one of the greatest spiritual battles, and we need to recognize it so we know how to disciple. We're discipling against secular humanism and recognizing where our liberty came from. Maybe we should educate people for liberty.

Rick Green: And I can tell you these young people are hungry for it. I truly believe we're in a revival. I think these young people are going to lead it. I get to see them in action. I got to add, we've talked presidents, we've about talked, talked tough times. You know, Reagan, in his first speech as a public official, in his inaugural address as, governor in 67, is when he said that famous line, freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We don't pass it in the bloodstream. But then he ended his public career at the very end in his farewell address in January of 89, that's when he said, if we forget what we did, we won't know who we are. And he warned of an eradication of the American memory that would lead to an erosion of the American spirit. This special that you're doing on the 250 is our chance to do what he said was the solution, which is civic ritual. This is civic ritual right here. We're literally reminding ourselves, almost like Steven getting up and giving the speech. Now, there's some people maybe want to stone us. Don't do that. But we're literally having the civic ritual of reminding ourselves who we are and where we came from so that we can restore that American spirit.

Stephen McDowell: We'll return with America 250 after this break. For news on American Family Radio,

Rick Green: we

Stephen McDowell: now continue with America Two Hundred and Fifty. Here's Walker Wildmon.

Walker Wildmon: I got two more questions. The three branches of government, judicial, legislative, executive. I'm glad I got that right. I've been listening to these guys too long to get that wrong. obviously it's undebated that all three branches have gone astray from their original charter. Right.

Stephen McDowell: That's.

Walker Wildmon: You can cite quickly just things that they've done that are outside of the confines of their charter in the Constitution. But I want to ask which institution, which branch of government, of the three, do you guys think is the most, intact compared to what the founders envisioned?

Rick Green: Why I think this question is so good is because we can do something about it.

Tim Barton: Yeah.

Rick Green: It's not just to complain about it. We can do something about it. So. So it's the 250th celebrating the declaration the line after what Steven was talking about earlier, that when any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. I think the reason this discussion is going to be fun is because we can do something about it. We can actually alter or abolish our government back into the place that it was originally designed to be. So it's a great question. So we know what to do.

Stephen McDowell: Well, I would say probably the thing that has been most damaging, certainly in the national government, that violates a central component of what the Bible teaches about government. Jesus taught the concept of limited government. The Bible teaches government is a divine institution God created for our good, basically to protect our life, liberty and property. And when Jesus said, when they tried to trick him and ask, is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not? And he said, whose image? Well, that's Caesar's image. And he said, render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God, the things that belong to God. This was a civil teaching of Jesus, regardless of what some people say. He didn't teach civil things. And this has transformed the world because what he was declaring is that Caesar is legitimate. God created it. You're to protect us, but, but your authority and power is limited. There's whole areas of life. See, we're created in the image of God, not Caesar. We don't have Caesar stamped on our forehead. So our freedom of worship, training our children, fulfilling our duties is outside the jurisdiction of Caesar. Limited government is very important. And I think when the national government passed the income tax, 1913, it gave them direct access to our money. Before then, they were held accountable by the states for how much money they spent. And that has led to deficit spending. We all know we've got 36, $8 trillion debt. And when national government can just spend money because they create it out of nothing, they can finance leering centers.

Tim Barton: Right?

Stephen McDowell: And all kinds of things. Because we can get money easy. It's real easy to do. So I think the most important thing we must do is we must limit government. We must limit the amount of money, limit the amount of taxes, limit the amount of regulations. That is the best thing we can work to do. And we can elect people understand government's important, but it's very limited. I'm for every tax cut we can possibly make. I'm probably for every get rid of every, regulation that we have. That is what we need to work to do, because that will then limit the power of government. All branches of government, they've all messed up their constitutional duties. that then is going to get us to the point where we can have freedom because government's not encroaching upon us.

Rick Green: This is literally saying we're going to challenge the status quo and say we need to alter or abolish a lot of these things that government has been doing. So we don't say Republicans should never come into office and say, well, we'll run our learning centers better than the Democrats did. We'll be more efficient and the kids will learn more. We'll get the sign right. It'll say learning center. We should be saying, why is the federal government involved in healthcare in the first place?

Tim Barton: Correct.

Rick Green: Instead of just asking can we do it better? It should be. Should they be doing it at all? And they, and they shouldn't. You know, center for demented confusion. I like to call them the center for disease creation, however you want to call them. You know, those types of things that we, like you said, they've all expanded outside of what they've been doing. And I think first, just getting the American people to recognize government is not, back to Reagan here, not the solution to your problem. Government is the problem. It's proper. We need government. It's a God created institution. But if it stays in its box, it's a blessing. When it gets outside of its box, it's a curse. We've got to do that.

Walker Wildmon: Well, then you have to follow the Constitution, obviously. And you can't start.

Stephen McDowell: You're supposed to follow it.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, yeah, right. You're supposed to, you have to follow the Constitution on this question of the size of government and the authority of government.

Rick Green: What should it be doing?

Walker Wildmon: Yeah. And the agencies. Because you and I can, we can argue for days about should there be a Department of Education.

Rick Green: Right.

Walker Wildmon: And you think there should and I think there shouldn't.

Rick Green: No, I don't.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, but hypothetically. But because it's just opinion based. But if you go back to the original Constitution, it's objective. The founding Fathers, they knew what they were doing. They knew that if they do not confine the federal government to certain powers, then it will become what it is today. where you've got all these agencies, all these authorities and all these powers.

Rick Green: And if you change our mind, you get, you know, if you can convince 34 states to call a convention, 38 states to vote, or you know, 38 states to ratify an amendment, and you want a Department of Education, then add it, amend the Constitution. Amend the Constitution. But they just get the Supreme Court to do it. If you get five justices to do it, you're done.

Tim Barton: And that's why, to your question, I think President Trump, his leadership is making the executive branch the most constitutional. None of the three branches look like what they did in the founding era for lots of reasons, because there's been lots of changes along the way. But as far as who is being the most constitutionally bound, which is really what the founding fathers intended right now, President Trump is the most constitutionally bound president we've had in any of our lifetimes.

Rick Green: I saw that coming.

Tim Barton: I didn't know.

Rick Green: I thought he'd be like, Obama on the right.

Tim Barton: Right.

Rick Green: I got a phone and a pen. I'm a business guy from NewSong York. I'll just make it happen.

Tim Barton: Yeah.

Walker Wildmon: Yes.

Rick Green: It's shocking, really. It really is.

Tim Barton: And I actually, as you can look and see, obviously, the overgrowth of the agencies, but we also have a president who's actually minimizing, shrinking, and trying to remove some of the agencies.

Walker Wildmon: The federal government is at the lowest level of employment since 1966. Wow.

Tim Barton: Which is incredible.

Walker Wildmon: Nearly 400,000 federal workers have been laid off in the last 12 months.

Tim Barton: And as we, as we look at this, I actually, I think kind of guys, to the point that we're making that we need to hold them accountable. I think one of the biggest problems is an educational problem in America because we're so civically ignorant. It's like half Americans can't even name the three branches of government. Right. It's just silly. We know so little about our basic structure. But with that being said, if we knew more about it, we would place the blame on the branch that has the most power constitutionally, and that was on Congress.

Rick Green: Here we go. Here we go.

Tim Barton: Why? because also one of the things that you read in the Constitution, Congress actually has the power and authority to determine how many levels of judiciary there can be, how many judges can be there, and what topics the judiciary can even hear. Which is crazy, because today we're told, no, there are three co equal branches. No, they're not. if authority is given to the legislature to create, overseeing, and even remove things in judiciary, well, those aren't co equal. Right. There's a check and balance in place. which branch has the ability to hold the executive branch in control? Well, the one that can impeach

Rick Green: in the hands of the legislature, the Federalist paper say.

Tim Barton: Right. So this is where, as we're looking at where we are today, I think the executive branch is the one doing the best they're not doing great. They're doing the best, though comparative of the three. They're winning this race and it's not close. They are doing the best at, following the Constitution and following some biblical principles along the way. But the ones I blame for most of the problems is the legislature. But the reason this is the problem is because legislature, they're the representatives of the people. So it's not just the legislature, it's a problem. It's the people that don't understand what the Constitution says, how it works, what the principles are. Because even this notion is we're talking about limited government, which is completely correct. The idea that government should only do for us what we can't do for ourselves was kind of of the notion in the founding of this. But the founding fathers laid out the philosophy in the Declaration that God gave us rights and government exists to protect those rights. We now think that government is the institute of rights, where when Obamacare passed, it's the first time that I can recall somebody saying something this contrary to founding ideals and this stupid. When Nancy Pelosi said, we've just given the American people the right to health care care, that should have been the most terrifying thing any American ever heard. Like, you don't give us rights. The reason you exist is to protect our God given rights. But we have now come to the place, and especially since COVID that so many people have been educated to think that the government is the ones. we're the animals in the zoo and they're the zookeeper. They tell us where we go, when we go, how much we eat, where we work.

Rick Green: I do have to throw in here though, because you framed this question as of the three branches. But David, Barton taught me a long time ago, the separation of powers and the checks and balances are not just the three branches at the federal level, it's also the levels of government. So it's also federal, state and local. And so states holding the Feds accountable and states using the ultimate constitutional amendment process given to them by the Founding fathers in Article 5 to tell the feds, get back in your box.

Walker Wildmon: You've worked on that a lot.

Rick Green: Yeah, I just don't think the Feds will ever put themselves back. The states are going to have to do it. So you blame Congress. I blame the state legislature for not doing their jobs.

Walker Wildmon: Leave it to Rick though, to find a way to plug the convention of state.

Tim Barton: But historically, this is also why George Washington was so special. Because never before had someone had the opportunity for the power to Control an entire nation and said, no, I just want to go back and be on my farm in Mount Vernon. That's never happened. And so to your point, the reason people have to be put in a box is because nobody does that except George Washington, everybody else, if they can get money and power, they're going to take money and power. Because this is why the founding fathers believe in checks and balances. Jon Adams wrote, it's because the heart of man is wicked and deceitful and can't be trusted quoting Jeremiah, which is what the Bible says, right, which informed their ideas, but it's why there has to be the checks and balances. And Rick, to your point, not just of the three branches, but also of the federalism idea, because the 10th Amendment says whatever's not explicitly given to the federal government in the Constitution belongs to the states. Well, you go through the list of all the departments and agencies that's not in the Constitution, which means that that actually is power that the federal government has usurped. From who? From the people. Where? In the states.

Stephen McDowell: You know, the U.S. constitution, as we've been talking about, limits the power of the national government. Article 118 enumerated powers. That's it. But the Constitution is good law. The first Constitution that was really established, an American Christian constitutional federal republic. That's what the founders gave us. It's good law. But William Penn.

Rick Green: Well, you did that too fast. Say that again.

Stephen McDowell: An American Christian constitutional federal republic. Each one of those words means something very important, unique for our form of government. But as one prestigious literary journal said, Our. Our U.S. constitution is the most precious possession the world holds or the future can inherit. This is true because it's the political expression of Christian ideas. So the Constitution is good and godly law, but we know that's not enough. William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania, who wrote the frame of government of Pennsylvania in there, said, though good laws do well, we need good laws. They do well. Good men do better. So the founders gave us good law unlike anything the world had seen. And initially, good men governed it. But what's happened? We got a lot of bad men who think like pagans, don't understand the limited function of government. We put them in a position to try to provide the power to, operate our form and framework of government. They can't do it. Why do we elect bad men? Because we have bad citizens. Citizens who don't know how to think biblically. And so the solution to turning the nation around begins by parents training their children in the truth of God's word churches discipling and mentoring the parents so they train their children. And then you can raise up new leaders. You can raise up men who understand the limited function of civil government. That's the only hope. And there's no easy solution, no short term solution. This is a long term solution where we have to lay the groundwork to sow a whole new seed. And to the point it's happening, it's occurring because biblical revival results in the permanent transformation of society through its changed laws and changed institutions. And as both of you have alluded to, to we see this, they're assuming the responsibility of training their children. 10 or 15,000 homeschoolers in the 70s, now 3 to 5 million. A lot of new Christian schools, people getting involved in government. There's organizations. The very fact we're sitting here having this discussion indicates to me God still has mercy on America.

Tim Barton: Yes.

Stephen McDowell: We wouldn't even be here.

Rick Green: I'm shocked. I'm shocked that, you asked that question and this group just talked for about 15, 20 minutes and didn't pick on the courts. Like that's weird for us.

Tim Barton: Well, I blame Congress for the courts.

Stephen McDowell: We can do something about it.

Rick Green: Yeah, yeah. We have to at least say part of the problem is we live under what we call in our Constitution classes, the court statution. They have gotten way outside of their boundaries. I just wanted to give an honorable mention to them being out.

Walker Wildmon: Congress is responsible for reining them in.

Rick Green: Yeah.

Walker Wildmon: Just like the executives.

Rick Green: Exactly.

Tim Barton: Can I have one thought, too? When Steve's saying that we have to have parents that are teaching their kids, one of the things I think that we can't overlook is because we have been in a culture for the last many decades where we haven't emphasized parenthood or even marriage. And one of the things I think in the midst of revival, that we are in, one of the messages Charlie Kirk had often get married, start a family. Those are things that all of us would be like, well, that's obvious. Yeah. It's not in culture anymore. And so in the midst of how do we fix this? And we're talking this long term, it's generational. We need to start saying the obvious, biblically true things out loud. Because the rising generation of culture is not hearing that from culture. They're only hearing it from people that have the wisdom of the word of God to say, hey, here's what you should do. Right. Get married. Right. Have kids, raise a family.

Stephen McDowell: Productive.

Tim Barton: Right.

Walker Wildmon: Disciples.

Tim Barton: But this is part of that process of, how do we do this for the future. Again, we're in this moment where God is on the move in the nation. It's incredible. But now we can't think. We only disciple in these certain scriptural areas. No, even the obvious things we need to say out loud because there's been a countercultural message that. No, right now there's more young couples that have animals, they have pets than they have kids. Right. There's more people, young people that are hooking up, they're shacking up together, but they're not getting a ring. We don't know even the sexual boundaries. We need to start saying the obvious things out loud because that's part of how we impact the rising generation. That we can once again, freedom, not pass in the bloodstream, but it's mentored. We're teaching the rising generation the things that allow freedom to function, allow America to survive.

Stephen McDowell: And the good news is everybody can participate. I don't have to be George Washington to do my part and just I can get married and have kids and be productive. Absolutely everyone can do that.

Rick Green: And part of the reason they are coming around is because they are seeing the pain of not working. It's not working. Exactly.

Walker Wildmon: The devil's way isn't working. Imagine that last, question as we celebrate America's 250th anniversary. It's just amazing that we get to be alive to experience this, if we can, and we've alluded to some of this, but if our audience can understand how God has used America providentially throughout human history, throughout the last 250 years. To me that gives them some kind of reason to continue, some kind of encouragement to continue. Because otherwise we're taught that America is just another secular nation, in human history. There's nothing really special about us. We're just doing this grand experiment for no reason. but if you believe that God was in the founding of our country and is in the future of our country, that gives you, that tethers it to your faith. And so from your guys perspective, how has God used America throughout our history?

Rick Green: You know, I think this is actually one of the unfortunate successes of the left is that they convinced our own children and our own people that we weren't used in a positive way. That we've been one of the greatest of evils, when in fact we've been the greatest blessing as a nation other than the children of Israel to the world in history. I mean, think of all the things that we've done to free other people. Not just to enjoy these things ourselves. We didn't just have a great economy and put biblical principles into our economy and then flourish and then keep it all to ourself. We bless the rest of the world. We're 80% of the missions around the world. We've, you know, defeated communism and Nazism and all of these things and freed people all over the planet and never asked for anything but, you know, to be able to bury our dead where, where they sacrificed and so that the lies about who we are. And of course we've got our sins and our. You know, it's like we always say that we give the good, the bad and the ugly, sure. But it's like we just emphasized all the ugly. And these kids actually think we're the bad guys. Now, that is shocking to me. So I think your question is so important. And we have to be able to articulate that and tell the story and talk about what we've done to sacrifice for the rest of the world, not just ourselves. Again, not just being selfish. I mean, our principles clearly work became the greatest economy, wealthiest, most powerful, most free, all of those things.

Tim Barton: Things.

Rick Green: But then we went and helped other people get the same thing and gain the same thing. We've got to tell that story. We would not do that. We would not be the most, you know, literally the most benevolent, you know, willing, to serve other people. If it weren't for the Christian foundations, if we didn't have the Christian foundations, we'd do nothing but conquer. We would have become the biggest empire on the planet instead of being the greatest blessing to the rest of the world.

Stephen McDowell: You know, the book of Acts, chapter 17, it says that God created the nations. He raises up nations, he puts down nations, he determines the boundaries, the time of their existence. I believe that God has a purpose for nations just like he does individuals. And the founders of America clearly believe that, Richard Hakluyt was a pastor who was the first founding father of America. And he wrote way back in 1584 and on his discourse on Western planting trying to sell Queen Elizabeth, we got to start colonies in the NewSong World. And he said this, he said, it will be to enlarge the glory of the gospel and provide a place where people who are persecuted for the sake of God's word can find refuge. Jon Winthrop, governor of the Pilgrim, said, we're going to be a light in a city set upon a hill. I believe our founders believe, Jon Adams and so many others wrote about this, that God had a purpose for America to Be an example, to be a light. Here was the first nation that expressed the fruit of biblical truth that had been growing for you know, 1600 years, mostly in Europe. Here it came, planted and came to fruition. And it's that fruit, as you point out, has impacted the whole world. When America's Constitution was approved, we are the only nation that had a constitutional Republic. Today there's 175 nations that have constitutions, most copied after Americas directly or indirectly. Now they have different results because they don't have the same Christian belief and character in the heart of the people to support it. But the concept of constitutional government and the idea of education for all people, the idea of individual enterprise and everything else came from America. Not that America's the end, it's just God in his providence said, okay, I'm going to show you, here's the fruit of biblical truth. So it can impact other nations and it's happening in other nations today. I've been able to travel to about 45 nations and teach these principles. And some nations, especially Latin America and parts of Asia and others have never seen what's going on in their nation, as is taking place today. And that is the legacy of what God did in giving birth to this nation.

Tim Barton: Yeah, I would say also looking at the Christian foundation of the nation, one of the things that's historically documented is the number one quoted source in the founders writings is the Bible. And it's not like it was close. It's, it's over 34% of their writings, were things that were cited, like quotation marks cited. And the professors who did the study said that there were so many obvious references to Scripture in their writings that if we included those and not just what's in quotation marks, because they're trying to have what are the parameters of the study. And so they quoted Blackstone and Montesquieu and Locke and all these guys. But they said the Bible, not only was it four times more than second place, 34% of all the quotes came in the Bible, but there were so many other obvious references to the Bible in the writings that had they included the obvious references that weren't in quotation mark, the number would have been well over 40%, maybe over 50%. And this is worth noting, the thing in the founder's own writings that they quoted more than anything else. And it's again I would argue certainly half of what they quote in their writings is it's from the Bible. Why does that matter? Is because not only can we point Out. The most influential voice in the founding era was the pastors. The most significant source in their writings was the Bible. It's unquestionable that there was a faith foundation in this nation. But what people often point to, and Rick, you were pointing out, where there's so much criticism of America today, people will say, yeah, but America did so much evil. So we were an evil nation. And I love to always just kind of pose the challenge question that is, okay, pick any atrocity you want. And here's the question. First of all, if it came to an end, how did it come to an end? And who led the opposition? This is important because whether it's the witch trials, the Indian land removal, slavery, you pick a topic, without exception, the people that led the opposition, the people that helped bring it to an end, it was always Christians, pastors in the church. The reason America's never been a perfect nation, which no nation, is because every nation's full of people, and all people are sinners who need a savior. Every nation has sinned. Why America has always been different is because of the influence of Christianity, that every time sin abounded, there were Christians going, we got to stop. This is so wrong. And so, for example, the witch trials. People point to the witch trials absolutely happened in America about 18 months. There was 27 people that died during the witch trials. But the witch trials went on in Europe, actually, for centuries. And over those centuries, there were tens of thousands, some argue hundreds of thousands of people that were put to death in Europe. So what you're actually telling me is America did what every other nation in Europe was doing, but America did it for a less amount of time. And the reason we did is because pastors love the opposition. And again, like, I'll go down the list, but this is one more reflection, revelation of the impact of Christianity. America, certainly has our sins, although we're not guilty of most of what we're accused of today. Just historically, it's totally incorrect. But even where we had those issues, we had them for a less amount of time than anybody else in the world. And the reason was because of the influence of Christianity, because the influence of pastors in the church. And it's the reason why, I'm hopeful, even today, of why we can turn this around, is because the same God who's been on the throne the entire existence of American history, for all of right human existence, he's the same God today. And we have the same opportunities to rebuild and restore, and by the grace of God, we might not have to go through a war, a revolution, a civil war. No, we can do something different. But what makes a difference in America is when Christians get involved, when we lead the opposition to evil, that's when evil stops in America. And again, that's part of the legacy of Christianity. We should celebrate that America had slavery for less time than any other nation in the world. That we actually, we fought a war where white people fought white people. At the end of the war, they freed all the black people. No, other nation has actually gone to war to free black people. And actually, we can go further because at the United nations, there's 193 member nations that are part of the UN. There was a study that came out in 2021 that 94 of those nations have still not pass laws to criminalize slavery.

Walker Wildmon: Wow.

Tim Barton: So when people like America's so evil, compared to who?

Walker Wildmon: Yeah, yeah, right.

Tim Barton: Like, this is. The accusations are crazy, but the reason we can point out they're crazy is because we overcame them. Why? Because of the influence of Christianity and pastors and the church.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah.

Rick Green: This has been so. Thank you for inviting us, man. Absolutely. I've learned a lot and it's been good iron sharpening. And I think people, if they'll use this. This is the answer, man. This is the answer to another 250 years.

Walker Wildmon: Yeah. Tim Barton, Steven McDowell, Rick Greene, Walker Wildmon. This has been episode nine, One Nation Under God of AFA at Home celebrating America's 250th anniversary. Happy Independence Day. We'll see you next time.