Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR Candace talks
: about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully an ultra, the ultrasound provided by preborn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside, I mean, that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom. Thank you. To everybody that has given these gifts, you guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love.
: PreBorn currently has clinics that do not have ultrasound machines. Would you consider a leadership gift and sponsor a machine Today? These life Saving machines cost $15,000 more than most centers can afford. Your donation will save countless lives for years to come. Dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or go to preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Doctor Nursemama Show Prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for healthy families. And today we're going to talk about something, but I hope most of you do every day. But we don't talk about a lot. We're talking about something as simple as getting dressed. I know you're probably like, what, was there a record scratch there? Yeah, we're going to talk about getting dressed now. This is something that we do every day and yet, especially for a lot of women, this can be something that feels more emotionally complicated than it should. And you know, I remember a couple of years ago going school shopping and I was, I was school shopping for my kids, back to school clothes, all of those things that they need because they're growing and, and they've outgrown the clothes for the summer and all those kinds of things. And I was in the dressing room and I hear this preteen next to me in the dressing room and she's just sobbing, just sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. Just nothing fits. I don't feel confident in anything. And this mama outside the door, let me tell you, she was on her A game. She was so amazing. She was encouraging, and she was just persistent. She was patient. She kept bringing outfit after outfit. And I finally went out, and I saw this mama, and she's standing outside the door. I gave her a big hug and I said, hey, you're killing it. You're doing such a great job. And I thought she was gonna look at me and smile and, like, give me a high five or something. And she just started crying her eyes out. And she said, you really think so? Because I don't feel it. Listen, if you've been there as a mom, school shopping with your kids, you know that feeling. These schools, questions, even the simple act of getting dressed in the morning, what should I wear? Do I look okay? Is this flattering? Is it too much? Is it not enough? What will people think? Like, is it too cheap? Is it too expensive? Is it too revealing? Is it modest enough? Am I following the rules? Am I going to sweat to death in this thing? am I measuring up? And we live in a culture that is saturated with social media and filters and influencers and fashion trends and criticism of fast fashion. Don't buy cheap clothes because you know that, that all these, you can see how actually it's more complicated than you think. We see these carefully curated images. And clothing is more than just about something that we put on our bodies for function. What we wear is connected to messages of identity, who we are, who we're projecting ourselves to be, to standards of beauty, to, belonging to how we dress in a particular place, even issues of sexuality and modesty and confidence and comparison, our sense of worth. And for Christian women especially, there is another layer of complexity we'll talk about. A lot of women grew up with very rigid messages about modesty, about covering up. It was very legalistic approach, not really capturing the heart as well as I think was intended. And others have absorbed a culture that constantly tell women, hey, if you got it, flaunt it. That's the message. These are the competing messages. And somewhere between those extremes, women and girls are trying to figure out, okay, what does God actually say about this? And what is the truth? That is the tough question that Caroline Saunders began exploring in her new book, but what do I Wear? And Caroline set out to study clothing throughout the Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, and discovered the Bible actually has a lot more to say about clothing and covering than she expected to find. But rather than creating another list of rules about what women should or should not wear. She invites readers into the larger biblical story and explores what it means to be clothed in Christ. That's a message applicable to men, women, teenagers, children alike. We sing about it a lot in lyrics, but do we really live it now? This book addresses practical questions about clothing, how much time, how much money we spend, but also explores what's happening beneath the surface. When we're getting dressed produces frustration. You can see this in any number of sitcoms, of movies where people change their clothes a million times and the goal today isn't to tell women, okay, this is what you should wear, cuz I can't answer that question. But we can talk about how to help honor yourself, honor others, honor God, and ultimately get dressed and feel truth and joy and worship. I know that seems. That seems impossible.
Men, this conversation is for you too. So if you're a husband, a father, a grandfather.....
Now here's the, last thing before I bring Caroline on. Men, this conversation is for you too. So if you're a husband, a father, a grandfather, a brother, a pastor, a coach, a mentor, you know, you likely have women or girls in your life who are navigating these questions. And maybe you don't experience the same kinds of pressures that they around appearance that they do. And you may not always understand why something as simple as choosing an outfit can carry so much emotional weight. You may dread your wife asking, does this outfit make me look? Oh, you know what's coming. You know, some of you are cringing and running even right now. So it's not a conversation about fashion, but you have an opportunity to shape the voices that they talking about bigger issues of, of dignity and identity and beauty and discipleship and a culture. And what happens when we allow God's word and not the world and not shame and not a legalistic approach to shape the way we see see ourselves.
Caroline Saunders writes a book about getting dressed. It's called But What Do I Wear?
So joining us is Caroline Saunders. She's a writer, a Bible teacher, a pastor's wife, a mother of three. She's written children's book Bible Studies for Teen Girls, a women's Bible study, and she's bringing both biblical theology and a healthy dose of humor to this conversation. You can see that in the title. This book releases September 15th. It's called but what Do I Wear? The Biblical Story of Clothing, how it Helps us Think about Getting dressed, and approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. Caroline, welcome to the show. We're so glad to have you here.
Caroline Saunders: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this very important topic that happens, like you said, every single day. We got to get dressed.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We got to get dressed. You got to get dressed every day. You do. I hope that you are. And, you know, especially for. For women, for girls, for mothers, for daughters, even for father and daughters, this is a conversation that. There are a lot of arguments that happen around clothing. You can open any sitcom, you can see arguments where they say, you're not going out of the house looking like that. And. And just people changing for a first date. I mean, this really is a reality of everyday life. But before we get to your message on that, Caroline, let's go back and meet you.
Caroline was raised in a Christian home by two wonderful parents
I'd love for you just to introduce yourself to our listeners, tell them a little bit about your background, how you came to know the Lord, and how he brought you to this message, which seems like this would be an unlikely. Oh, what do you want me to say, God? Tell us your story.
Caroline Saunders: Well, I was raised in a Christian home by two really wonderful parents. I think that, while the Christian culture around me at that time leaned, it leaned a little legalistic, my home was not like that. I felt a really genuine faith for my parents. And I feel like I was taught to walk by the spirit, not walk by a sense of legalism. So I'm so grateful for that foundation. And I really became aware of my need for the Lord when I was 8 years old. You know, I'd been trying really hard to be the good girl, to do all the right things. And eventually I realized, oh, my goodness, I'm actually a sinner. I'm in desperate need of Jesus. And so I, you know, Jesus came into my life at that moment. He's been walking with me ever since. And, you know, it. It's at times been really complicated. You know, like, now I'm married to my high school sweetheart. He's a pastor at a church. And the Christian life might seem like it is really easy and really line, mirror. But sanctification is a complicated thing. And I'm so grateful that I've had the Lord. I mean, I've. I've needed him every single step, truly. And one practice that has brought me so close to him is this practice that I've done for the past 11 years of tracing a theme through the Bible story. So I literally start in Genesis. I've chosen a theme, and I keep an eye out for it. I watch it, I observe it over the course of the big story, and I see how it develops. And so this has been this beautiful habit that helps me really pay attention to, what I'm reading. I'm a victim of. Sometimes I'VE done a reading plan, and the words just seem like they just pass by and I don't absorb them. So this has been a really beautiful way for me to focus in on what I'm reading. And one year I just knew that the. That the theme needed to be the theme of covering slash clothing. And I'd wanted to do it for a while, and I finally had a chance to do it, and I really wasn't sure what I was, what I was going to see. A lot of the teachings that I had heard about clothing were really fell under the category of, like, cover up or care. Those were really the only messages that I had ever seen. And I didn't know what to expect. And I was stunned. I was stunned. I could not believe what a beautiful story the Bible tells. And of all the themes that I have traced, this is the one that felt the most personal. Clothes. We, you know, we want to dismiss them as superficial, but they're really personal to us. And so studying that theme m of covering slash clothing was so beautiful, ministered to me so deeply that even after I studied it, after my year of intense study was over, the story kept chasing me around. I would get dressed or have a fitting room incident, like you mentioned, with the mom and the daughter. We've all had a fitting room incident. And it would be in moments like that when God's story would come to mind, the Holy Spirit would call it to mind, and I would experience ministry from the Lord in that place. And it was so beautiful. So I'm just so grateful to God for his word. And it is a rescue. Even in the daily act of getting dressed, as stupid as it feels, when you, you know, you've tried on three outfits and now you're on the fourth and you're getting sweaty and you're starting to want to yell at everybody even there, like, God can minister to us. And I'm so thankful.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Caroline, that's pretty high billing there. I mean, if you looked at 11 different themes and this was the one that ministered to you so deeply, I think it wouldn't be the top of people's list to think like, oh, I want see what the Bible says about clothing from Genesis to Revelation. But I love the arc of the gospel. I love the narrative, the parallels that are there. The, you know, the curse and the unwinding of the curse. And I would really love to know some of the highlights that you found. Of course, we won't be able to cover all of them. You'll have to get the Book, if you want to read everything. But tell us some of the highlights. What were some of the marquee moments for you? Those, aha. Moments where you said, oh, I didn't know this.
Caroline Saunders: Well, everybody. You know, people who aren't even that familiar with the Bible know at least one thing about the first people. Adam and Eve, they were naked. They were naked. Like, we all know that. But. And it's not something I paid that much attention to. I mean, I had. But when I really thought about it, I thought, okay, they were naked and unashamed. like, that is the genesis to reality. Naked and unashamed. We cannot even imagine this, right? But there's this huge shift in Genesis 3. Sin enters the picture, and sin is this exposing force. And so I began right from the beginning to align Satan with exposure. And we see God, you know, there's consequences for their sin. But he could have said, I told y' all not to take the fruit, and you didn't listen. And you're gonna have to figure it out. He does not do that. They have clothed themselves insufficiently, right? They've used fig leaves. And if you've ever gone on a walk and found a beautiful leaf, you know, if you go save it on your counter at home, it's going to turn brown and crumbly. It's not good clothes for us. So Adam and Eve have tried to make this insufficient covering for themselves, and God instead offers them a truer and better covering. He takes one of the animals that Adam himself had named, and in a world where nothing had ever died before, he clothes them with the skin of an animal. So right there in the. In the third chapter of the whole book, we see that the naked and ashamed, if they are going to be sufficiently covered, death must occur. That is the lens through which we're supposed to begin to view things. And now Adam and Eve are clothed in a more lasting way, but of course, it points to something bigger. And I kind of wondered about Adam and Eve. Okay, are they thinking about that every time they get dressed? Are they pondering that? And is that something I should be thinking about when I get dressed? And then, of course, if we fast forward to the person of Jesus, we see that he is naked on the cross. Like, have we thought about that? And that he was exposed so that we might be covered? So if you look just at Genesis 2 and 3 and just at the crucifixion, there is going to be so much for us to process about what getting dressed. The story that getting dressed can actually teach Us.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay, Well, Caroline and I feel like you're living up to that high billing that is really fascinating to think about. And, one of the things that I love about scripture because really, even people who do not profess Christ, who are not. Who are not professing Christians, a lot of them know about the story of Adam and Eve. And just like you said, I mean, we see pictures of that in popular culture of the fig leaves and all of that. But to look at it through that gospel centric lens and to see from even very beginning to have that theme, the ark of redemption, already starting and to have God, who is rich in mercy, giving them a better covering, I had never thought about it like that, but that is pretty amazing. So you see, this is what I love about this framework because we're not just talking about what am I allowed to wear. Really. Caroline is asking a much deeper question. We're talking about who am I and what does I. What do what I want? What does what I wear communicate about how I understand who God is, who I am, and how I relate to other people. And this is complicated because we're navigating an entire culture that's telling us a completely different story. And if I have to say and be honest, much less compelling. And we'll talk about some of those competing messages when we come back.
The book is called but what Do I Wear?
The book is called but what Do I Wear? The Biblical Story of Clothing. How it helps us think about getting dressed and which makes me laugh. Approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. It's by Caroline saunders. It releases September 15th. You can order it now. We'll be right back on the other side of this break.
Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give All Sufficient Merit by Shane & Shane I know work I have done My righteousness I fulfill at my Savior's cross where all sufficient merit did what I could not. Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends, that is all Sufficient Merit by Shane and Shane. I love that song. It is such a great reminder when I am feeling defeated and I am feeling overwhelmed by the demands of the world and all the things that I think I need to do to be a good Christian. Oh, my goodness, that is such a reminder that it is all through the finished work of Christ. And yes, I am in a messy process of sanctification, as we all are. But recognizing that God is in control and that we have everything that we need through Christ to run this race of life and we have the hope of eternity is something that has really been a source of encouragement for me.
Caroline Saunders writes about how Christians should approach dressing and choosing clothes
And one of those things that can feel overwhelming in daily life is what we're wearing. And I know you're thinking, like, okay, how can this relate? But you. If you were listening to the first segment, Caroline, just so beautifully laid out. Even in Genesis, we're talking about clothing because everybody knew, as she said, Adam and Eve were naked and ashamed. And she talked about God providing a, covering, and then Jesus being our covering all the way. Oh, that gospel arc beautiful. But in the reality of everyday clothing, we want to honor the Lord and what we are wearing. And I have had some listeners reach out to me before when I talked about purity culture and really be caught off guard that we would say anything, that we would be say anything that would seem critical toward purity culture. And I think purity culture was a movement that came in the 90s and the 2000s that really had a good goal of leading kids toward a pure life. But it leaned legalistic, and sometimes that impacted the messages that we gave girls and women about what they were wearing and impacted their identity. And there's some lessons to be learned learned there. And Caroline addresses that in her book, because there's two very different cultural messages that women are encountering today. One side is this message, like, your body is your power. Display it, perfect it, use it like whatever you want to do. And on the other side is, oh, your body is dangerous. Cover it, hide it. And if someone responds, wrongly to you, that's completely irresponsibility. But the truth is, neither one of those extremes tells the whole biblical story. And Caroline specifically addresses women who have experienced some different forms of baggage around clothing, coming from that and from other places, too. And as for. As parents, this is a really important conversation for us to have because our daughters are growing up in a world where they are navigating this. And this is really hard. Caroline. This is, a really tender space to step into, and there's a lot of feelings here. How do we step into this space with truth and grace. What did you learn in your study from Genesis, Revelation, about the Bible that impacted the way that you see how Christians, and especially Christian women, how we should approach getting dressed and choosing clothing that is honoring to us and honoring to the Lord?
Caroline Saunders: M. Well, one. One principle that was very formative through the Story is something I alluded to when I was talking about Genesis 2 and 3, that we see Satan immediately associated with exposure and we see God immediately associated with covering. And so if we think about God as the God who covers and we think about Satan as the accuser who exposes, that is going to inform how we talk to one another about our clothes. And that to me felt like one of the pitfalls of purity culture is that maybe we had, biblical principles in mind, but potentially we were not, communicating those principles with a gospel infused tone. You know, we, we often were, behaving like exposure exposers when we say, you know, young lady, go upstairs and change right now. And, and it's not that that a parent couldn't tell a kid to go change. I think that's on the table. But I think we have to be incredibly careful with how we communicate it because we are, we are entrusted with God's story and so we need to represent it well. And clothes are really personal. And so I think that I would encourage anybody talking to anyone else about clothes to be prayerful and humble and biblically informed about how you do it. Because another principle that I noticed it really in my own life is that clothing exposes things about us, right? So, for example, say I'm trying to get ready for church and I'm trying on 27 outfits. The real issue is not my clothes. And so if somebody were getting on to me about my clothes, that would show that they don't really understand what's going on in my heart. Because a lot of times what's really going on in my heart, maybe in my particular life is I mentioned my husband's a pastor. So sometimes I have this temptation to want to present well at church, to want my clothes to be like armor, to keep, to make me strong and to keep me safe against the criticism of other people. So that's what's actually going on. But if somebody dismissed it and said like, oh, you're just being superficial, oh, you just get dressed, oh, let's just go, or young lady, just go change, that same kind of thing, they're missing out on the actual ministry that I need. And so purity culture assumes, oh, you just need to cover up, your issue is that you're not covered up. And a lot of times the issue is something else. So I think that we can be wiser, we can be led by the spirit and we can view clothing, things that we see about somebody else that might be uncomfortable to us as an opportunity to be curious and to seek to offer the real ministry they need. And sometimes the real ministry is offering wisdom to a young lady who's not wearing something that's appropriate in that particular setting. And there's ways to do that that's appropriate too. You know, I think that we have, so associated with clothes, with morality. And a lot of times it's just the kids don't know we have to teach them. Right. I, remember, like, getting a wedding invitation, and I can't. I can't think of how the. The dress code was described, but I found it so confusing. And I'm googling, like, what's cocktail casual?
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know what I mean?
Caroline Saunders: Like, the. The literacy that we need to have to know how to get dressed in different places is something we have to teach one another to do. And so if a young lady comes to church and she's not dressed how she should be a church, or how she should be at summer camp or whatever. The thing is, maybe she just doesn't know so we can equip. It doesn't have to be about shame. It doesn't have to be with the tone of young lady cover up. There's just so many better things that we can do than, maybe the more shortsighted methods of purity culture.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so. You're so right. I agree with everything that you say. And sometimes they don't know. And sometimes this is what I see, especially as a pediatric nurse practitioner. I see kids for, well, child checks. I see kids all the time.
As kids go through puberty, their body really starts to change
And I want to talk about something for parents to really be aware of, because as kids start to go through puberty, their body really starts to change. So, you know, for boys, like, their shoulders are going to get wider. For girls, their hips are going to get wider. Their body changes in shape and form. And sometimes it can feel, Kids already feel uncomfortable about that. It feels like those puberty changes are just shouting, you know, and because they have this developmental lens where they think of personal fable, like, I'm on a stage and the world is looking at me like everyone is fixated on me. And of course that's not the truth, but they don't know that then. And sometimes it can be really hard when their bodies change and you don't really know how to dress in your new body yet, you know, and sometimes I see families, Caroline, who maybe don't have the resources to buy new clothes or to get different clothes at the pace that they are changing or they don't realize, like, all of a sudden it's like these Shorts that I've worn have been fine. I wore them when I was 10, 11. Now all of a sudden I wear them when I'm 12. I come downstairs and my dad is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, where are you going in those shorts? And, and the message that girls can internalize is, I'm fat. I, I've gained too much weight for these shorts. Like, I'm too big to wear these shorts. Or, you know, somehow, like, now that my body is changing, my body is bad and I have to cover that up. And I think we have to be so, so, so careful. And especially for fathers and daughters, because those daughters are on hyper alert for anything that their dad says because they're looking to see. Like, okay, my dad is a reflection of, of how men are going to treat me, how men are going to perceive me, what they think of me. And girls, you know, it can be more like argumentative is what I find. Like, moms and daughters are going to argue about that. You're not wearing that. Yes, I am. You know, it's not quite so personal. But did you find anything that could be a, ah, biblical encouragement for us, especially in that stage of life? Just being very careful how we're approaching clothes and being more compassionate and navigating our kids through puberty?
Caroline Saunders: You know, one thing that I think parents can do is we view our kids as an extension of ourselves. And so sometimes if they're not dressed in a way that we approve of, what's really happening is that we're not happy with how we are being presented to the world. So if your daughter's wearing something that you don't like to church or wherever, you want to fix it not because you're actually wanting to care for her, but because you're wanting to protect your image. So I think that is something that can come up a lot. That would be another thing that clothes expose. And so I think the best thing that a parent can do is truly to be really prayerful and try to walk by the spirit. Because your daughter needs you, she needs your help. and so you have to be careful that you are not just trying to shape her on the outside outside, but that you are ministering to her on the inside, fathers and daughters alike. And so sometimes our gut reaction to their clothes is not necessarily the right one because it might be like, oh, you're shocked because the short seems so short now. And really it's like she just got taller. It's not a moral issue. It's really a nothing. She's just taller. Now. And so sometimes we have to take a deep breath, we have to pause, and you have to process that. So I think that maybe there's wisdom in, being slow to speak. You know, that's like James's wisdom to us is to be slow to speak. But with clothes, we tend to be really quick to speak, and sometimes you feel like you have to because you have to get out the door. But I also think, to some extent, even as serious as our clothes feel in a conversation like that, they're not that serious. Like, if your daughter goes out wearing the wrong thing, nobody will die from this. It's going to be more important that you figure out the way to honor her and to respond to her in a way that is biblically informed, rather than just your gut reaction and trying to reshape her on the outside. I think if you're really after her heart and you really want to minister to her heart, that tends to take a little bit more time. And we may make some missteps in the wardrobe department along the way, but we're going to make missteps anyways. So it's like, It's like caring about what really matters, and rather than just being somebody who cares about the appearance of things, you
Dr. Jessica Peck: just gave some serious truth in that.
Clothes give us a lot of information about our personality and who we are
Caroline, I, want to go back to what you're saying about if we're really honest. And I know it's hard, and honestly, I think every parent everywhere could think about that. And to some extent, you know, you tend to get more relaxed as a parent. I know when I had my first, like, I wanted to make sure that we looked great, even if we were, you know, going out to the grocery store because somebody might admire my baby. And by the fourth, I was like, like, all right, cowboy boots and a swimsuit? Like, sure, yeah, I'm down totally. You do get more relaxed in that. But you did say an important truth that I think it's worth going back to revisit, because clothes are so personal, and they're such an extension of ourselves. And when we look at somebody with. From a first impression, most of that is going to come. Come from their clothes. We're seeing what they're wearing. Like, is it name brand? Are they, you know, just. Is it designer? Is it tailored? Is it casual? Is it professional? Is it, you know, athletic? Like, it gives, clothing gives us a lot of information about our personality and who we are. And in this day and age where really culture is pushing us to make our kids products that we manufacture to the world. And we advertise them on our own social media because they're part of our image crafting. I know these are. I'm cringing even as I'm saying these things because it sounds so harsh, but it's so true. Caroline. How can we really check our own hearts and say, like, okay, is this an issue of, I, you know, want my child to always be polished and professional and look together. This isn't what I am. How do we differentiate the gospel issues in that and use a, biblical lens to re examine our own hearts and motivations before we decide what's a battle worth fighting?
Caroline Saunders: my number one recommendation is going to be the very end of Psalm 139. I think it's a passage that maybe would be good for every parent to memorize. But at the end of Psalm 139, he says, search me, O God, and know my heart, try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. We don't often know what is inside of us, but God does know, and he will reveal it to us. And he doesn't reveal it to us in a shaming way like the Experience Exposer does, but he does show us what is dangerous to us. And so I think to be a thoughtful parent, we have to be willing to ask God to search us and to know us and to show us anything in us that grieves him. And we can trust that he'll lead us in the way everlasting. And so if you are grieved by something that your kid's wearing, if it bothers you, that is a call to, to prayer. And it may also be a call to processing with another trusted Christian, processing with a spouse. Sometimes you can even, talk with your daughter about this. You know, it would be okay possibly to say, you know, something about some of these outfits that you've set aside that you want to wear to school next week. I'm uncomfortable with it, and I want to think about why. but I want you to know in the meantime that I love you and I care about you and I care about, what you care about. And so, so let me think about what it would look like for us to honor yourself, to honor others, and to honor God. And that can be part of the language in your house. And I think just that humility and that processing with the Lord and that open communication with him and with the people in your lives is going to be really, really helpful. And really protective. And it's also going to train your kids to think that getting dressed is not like a uniform. It's something they're going to have to process forever. Like, like them being in your home for you to train them now is wonderful because one day they're going to be a grown up like you in their own home and they're still not going to know all the answers, just like you don't know all the answers. And so to train them to, to think biblically and to walk by the spirit, I just think is so, so beautiful. And we can offer such kindness to one another when every time we get dressed there's a clothing issue, we get rerouted in this story of being clothed in Christ. And when that informs the way we get dressed, I mean, what a relief to everybody.
Dr. Jessica Peck: What a relief. Well, we'll talk more when we come back about getting dressed as an act of worship. Not the title of her book is Not Is. But what Do I Wear? Not what Do I not wear, but what Do I Wear? And we'll talk about that. And Carolyn, I think those are such great words of wisdom because a lot of times what our kids put on it can cause some fear. We're like, oh, well, like this T shirt isn't exactly giving a message I'm comfortable with. Or you're dressing like, you know, you're, you're going to hang out with a different crowd of people that I don't know if this is the best for you or if you're, you know, not, not, rising to those standards of modesty that we want to embrace as a family. That's a great call to prayer and it's a way deeper issue than clothing. We'll be right back with more from Caroline Saunders on But what do I wear? See you after this break.
Discover the story of the culture warrior Don Wildmon
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: Discover the story of the culture warrior Don Wildmon and, and how he went head to head with Hollywood playboy, the homosexual agenda and the Disney empire. Things were changing and many people just sort of acclimated to it. And Don Wildmon didn't. They thought, I think, that they could just crush him.
: The movement Don started paved the way for Christians to boldly stand for truth and righteousness in a hostile culture. Watch Culture Warrior today for free visit culturewarrior.movie
Yet Not I But Through Christ In Me by City Alight: Oh, how strange and divine I can sing all this morning. Welcome back, friends. That is yet not I But through Christ in me by City a Light definitely in my top 10 this week. These songs are so encouraging to me. When you feel overwhelmed by the weight of the world, it is just such a good reminder to remember that it's not I, it's not us, it is Christ in us. And one of the things, things as parents today and just as people that is really hard to navigate is the world of what to wear. What in the world should I wear? And we know the Bible has so much to say about what we are wearing. And one of the verses that many of you are probably familiar with is isn't the you know about what doesn't. If he closed the lilies of the field, will he not so much more clothe me. And we're talking to Caroline Saunders today, who is the author of a new book coming out September 15th. It's called but what Do I Wear? The Biblical Story of Clothing, how it Helps us Think about getting dressed, and approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. This is a really practical book that has discussion questions in it that you can use. You can open conversations with your kids. Caroline was just sharing with me during the break that is one of her goals to say we can talk about this and we can do it. Well, we've learned some lessons from purity culture that was well intentioned, but we've learned some pitfalls of that, as Caroline put it, and I agree with that. And when we look at getting dressed, we can actually look at getting dressed as an act of worship. So it changes the question from do I look good enough? Is this, is this good? Is this acceptable? Like, is this what I'm supposed to wear? Is this cocktail casual for the wedding, you know, that's given me a dress code or whatever it is to how can I honor God, honor myself and honor other people? By the way that I'm dressed today and I see this. This is actually a really interesting topic of conversation and professional worlds. And we're seeing some professional literature come out saying that even when you go into your healthcare provider, you absolutely judge us by what we are wearing. You are looking. And it tells us so much about what we are, what we are. But we can dress in a way that honors the Lord. And so we'll talk about that. But Caroline, you know, it's great. You, you said during the break to me that, you know, we want this, like, list of do's and don'ts. Like, okay, just give me exactly the roadmap. But God just gives us more freedom than that and more freedom in our, in our sanctification.
Caroline: How do women seek healing from hurtful comments about dress?
So before we talk about how to dress as an act of worship, talk to those women, because I know they're out there, I know they're listening, who were hurt by some comments that happened by someone who is maybe well meaning, but who brought a lot of shame to them for what they were wearing or what they were doing. How do you seek healing from that? Because I know those words can carry weight for years after they happen.
Caroline Saunders: they really can. And any woman who has gone through that really has my heart. She is not alone. Unfortunately, that's a really common story. And sometimes the people are well intentioned and just have had terrible words. And sometimes the people were not well intentioned. And all of it is so deeply painful to us. And that, I think is part of why I was so surprised by the message of the Bible that God is a God who covers the naked and ashamed, not a God who points at, the naked and ashamed and laughs or scoffs or judges. And so I think that knowing more of who God is is going to be such a ministry to that woman. And especially if the person who, who said the hurtful things was a spiritual leader, we might, you know, without even realizing it, conflate that person's posture with God's posture. And that is why they're going to be so stunned by God's story. Like, think about the story of the prodigal son. The son comes home to his father and he's humiliated and he's disgusting. And the Father could have said, ew, like go clean up and come back when you look. Or he could have said any number of things. But the Father clothes him. It says, in the best robe. And in that culture, that likely meant a robe from the patriarch's closet, from his own closet. He clothes him in his robe. And that is the God that we serve. And so whatever that person said to you, however confusing it was and however painful it was, that person does not represent the Lord's posture towards you. He wraps you up in his own robe. That's why this idea of being clothed in Christ is so beautiful, because Christ was exposed on the cross so that we could be covered in his righteousness and his strength and his dignity and his wisdom. It's such a beautiful covering. So I think Those moments of pain can be something that leads that woman to praise the Lord. Because we thought God was going to be like these people around us. We thought God was going to be like us, us. And he's not. He's the God who covers the naked and ashamed. And it's such a beautiful story.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's a beautiful story, and it's a really beautiful picture. To think of that, to think about, you know, if you've been a place where you felt exposed and to have someone give you a covering like that, and to imagine that's God's heart for us, that. That's a really big shift. Because I think you're right. I think a lot of times when people experience hurt, especially from spiritual leaders, they kind of project that attitude like, God is ready to point out all of my sins, all of my mistakes, all of the things that are wrong about me. Like, I can't be too vulnerable in this church setting because I'm so exposed. But to really have that thought that God is not there as the exposer, as the accuser, he is the COVID that. That's a really big shift in thought. And another big shift is not thinking about, you know, when you're getting dressed, like, okay, what should I not wear? What's not appropriate, what's too much? What is. Is, you know, too little to thinking, how do I get dressed in a way that is an act of worship? That's a pretty radical question. What are some practical guidance that you have? If you have any checklist that I would. I would welcome that, Caroline, but I know that's not promised.
Caroline Saunders: You know, we are dying for a checklist. I want one, too. I'm like, I wish that just there was another book in the Bible that had a little dress code, and we would just all do that and we wouldn't have to think about it. But that is not what God has done. That is not what God has offered. We are supposed to walk by the spirit. And that means things tend to be really complicated. We have to wrestle through this.
Beautiful clothes are an opportunity to worship the Lord, right?
But one of the things in the Bible that is. That surprised me is how much. How many beautiful clothes are on it. Right? There's we. The. The story starts with a wife who is naked and ashamed, but it ends with a bride who is clothed beautifully, she's adorned. This is the bride of Christ. All Christians, for all of time. And you can go read about her outfit. And it is symbol, and it is beautiful and it is glorious. And God is using something that he knows we're gonna like. Beautiful Clothes to teach us something about him, that he is the God who covers. And he doesn't cover us in, like, a dutiful way. He covers us in a delightful way. Like, in actually a beautiful way. And so, I mean, I remember a, couple years ago, I bought this new dress to wear to a friend's wedding. And I love this dress. And I had a little thing in me that was like, oh, you're being so superficial for loving this dress. And then the story came to mind, and I thought, you know what? This is a beautiful dress. And when I enjoy it because I'm remembering how God has clothed me, that too is an act of worship. Or I think about when my daughter turned one, There was this dress I really wanted for her that was just so cute. And, you know, we. We were going to be practical and not get it and not get it. And then eventually my husband was like, just get it. Why don't you get it for her? I bought her this dress, and I'm telling you, it was not an act of, extravagance and a money sense. It was an act of love. I just was like, I love this little girl. I treasure this little girl. I cherish her, and I'm going to adorn her in this way. And so I think that sometimes just a, beautiful outfit is this act of worship of, like, God, thank you for how you have clothed me. It is even better than this dress. And this is a really great dress. Or when our outfit is terrible, it's another opportunity to worship the Lord, right? Like, I've had moments where I hate my outfit. Everything I put on is so stupid. Like, why did I ever buy any of this? Everything's trash. Burn it down, Down. And then sometimes it's an act of worship as an act of humility. I have to say, God, I am wearing whatever is currently on my body, and I am leaving because you have clothed me in Christ. And so I'm free to wear something that I don't think looks that good. So I think that there's so many opportunities to worship the Lord. And sometimes it's through enjoying our clothes, and sometimes it's through caring less about our clothes. And all of that has just been such a ministry to me. Me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that really changes the way the conversation when you talk about, like, time and money, because that can often be, a point of, of inflection on Christian discipline. Like, okay, am I. Am I wasting money here? Am I not? But you describing it the way that you described it, that that's absolutely beautiful. And I have little girls. And I remember, you know, sometimes, like, my husband would take them when they were little, they'd go on daddy daughter dates. And if he bought them something to wear, which usually there was one time, okay, I'll, I'll say this where it was one time, he was like, oh, I bought them this dress. And I look at the dress, I'm like, this is an adult T shirt. This is not a little girl dress. But God bless him, he tried, but it didn't matter because their daddy had bought them something to wear because he thought that they were beautiful and he took them out as a special treat. And thinking about that in the way, way that God treats us, that, he adorns us, and even how you described from, you know, Eve in Genesis to the bride of Christ in Revelation, that's absolutely beautiful.
Romans 8 talks a lot about walking by the Spirit versus walking by flesh
Is there any other shift in thought that you have, any other tips that you have where we can really continue just to shift our mindset from that worldly perspective to a, gospel centered perspective?
Caroline Saunders: I think that it's worth, worth thinking about where in your life of getting dressed you need to be more serious and where you need to be less serious. There are just times when, you know, as an active, serious discipline, you need to, not buy anything new for a while, or you need to not wear the outfit that looks really good on you because you think it might be dishonoring to somebody else or whatever. There's times to be really serious and there's times when it's like, okay, whatever, that you are clothed in Christ, so it's just not that serious. And walking by the Spirit is what's going to help us determine which. What's one way or the other. So, you know, Romans 8 talks a lot about walking by the Spirit versus walking by the flesh. And it's easy to get dressed walking by the flesh. And you can even look very religious while you do it. But if you want to actually like, love the Lord and in whatever you do, whether you eat or drink or put on clothes, I think that there's just this call to walk by the spirit. And it is kind of messy. You know, it doesn't have like a list to it. It's not that tidy of a thing. But it is really beautiful to live out a true story rather than, cling to whatever made up spiritual dress code that we have invented for ourselves. So just. And commission anybody to think through what it looks like to walk by the Spirit. It in your closet, with your body, with your Clothes with your budget in your particular, places where you go and, what a beautiful journey that will be between you and the Lord.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, someone who I think modeled this really well in my life is actually my granny. She was a precious lady, just a, woman of God. A woman who always had her guidepost devotional open to the right day, and her tithing check is her bookmark. And she was soft, you know, she was really nice to hug. And I never heard her say anything negative about her body, but she would always wear she, like. And during the day when she was running around town, she might wear like a, a sweatsuit, but she'd have her pearls on. Like, she'd have her pearls on her little cross, you know, because she was a lady and that was what she wanted to convey to everybody. And if she was going to church, she was going to wear her church dress. And she dressed appropriately for the occasion. She dressed modestly, but she never, never criticized herself. She never, you know, I never saw her, like, change her clothes a million times. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, man, you're describing my granny. I need to be more like that and just go out and take it less seriously and just be in my sweats and pearls and be like, hey, I'm here for action, but I'm also a lady. And so I'm there.
Caroline says the most important thing about an outfit is being clothed in Christ
I want to know, Caroline, what do you hope that people, especially women who read your book, what do you hope that they'll walk away from it when with.
Caroline Saunders: You know, I have been doing this really silly thing on Instagram where I do a video of what I'm wearing. And I say, but the most important thing about my outfit is that I'm clothed in Christ and forcing myself to do that. Which, by the way, that's like a huge violation of my personality. I don't want to create content like that, but I'm trying to like. But it's just what you say.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah.
Caroline Saunders: well, yeah, it's been just kind of this important discipline of even when I hate the outfit, because sometimes I do or sometimes I love it or somewhere in the middle, usually to train myself to think. The most important thing about my outfit is that I'm clothed in Christ. For Christian women, for that to be like the sort of godly, intrusive thought that happens when they look in the mirror after getting dressed for the day, I think that can be really life changing and really beautiful. So that's. I'm hoping that women carry that, that the story leaks into their story. And begins to inform the way they walk in their lives.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I can even hear. I think husbands can take that for a line from you. When. When women are saying, okay, how does this look? How do I look? You can the an guys here, I'm going to give you the answer. The answer is you look beautiful in anything you wear. But the most important thing is that you're clothed in Christ. Like, okay, there's your bonus for the day. You'll get some bonus brownie points. No woman is going to be mad about that answer at all. And Carolyn, I just thank you so much for helping us take something as ordinary as getting dressed every day and seeing the bigger biblical story underneath it. I have been so encouraged by this conversation because ultimately, ultimately you are so right. This is not about clothes. It is about the messages we believe about ourselves. Whether our daughters grow up believing their bodies are something, display something to hide, something to perfect. But what we want is them to see it as something to steward as women created in the image of God, as men created in the image of God. For that, because we haven't even talked about, I, I've talked with a lot of teenage girls who say, hey, let's not talk about modesty culture and leave the boys out because, you know, tight shorts can be a thing or tight pants can be a thing. So we're not forgetting that. We'll leave that for another day. But thanks for helping us move beyond legalism and cultural presence to really something much better. To dressing as an act of worship. You are made in the image of God, you are loved by God, and ultimately you are clothed in Christ. And that is amazing. Much more beautiful and worthy garment than anything that could ever be hanging in your closet. The book releases September 15 from B& H Publishing. Get a copy. And as you do, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. See you next time.
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Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for healthy families. And today we're going to talk about something, but I hope most of you do every day. But we don't talk about a lot. We're talking about something as simple as getting dressed. I know you're probably like, what, was there a record scratch there? Yeah, we're going to talk about getting dressed now. This is something that we do every day and yet, especially for a lot of women, this can be something that feels more emotionally complicated than it should. And you know, I remember a couple of years ago going school shopping and I was, I was school shopping for my kids, back to school clothes, all of those things that they need because they're growing and, and they've outgrown the clothes for the summer and all those kinds of things. And I was in the dressing room and I hear this preteen next to me in the dressing room and she's just sobbing, just sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. Just nothing fits. I don't feel confident in anything. And this mama outside the door, let me tell you, she was on her A game. She was so amazing. She was encouraging, and she was just persistent. She was patient. She kept bringing outfit after outfit. And I finally went out, and I saw this mama, and she's standing outside the door. I gave her a big hug and I said, hey, you're killing it. You're doing such a great job. And I thought she was gonna look at me and smile and, like, give me a high five or something. And she just started crying her eyes out. And she said, you really think so? Because I don't feel it. Listen, if you've been there as a mom, school shopping with your kids, you know that feeling. These schools, questions, even the simple act of getting dressed in the morning, what should I wear? Do I look okay? Is this flattering? Is it too much? Is it not enough? What will people think? Like, is it too cheap? Is it too expensive? Is it too revealing? Is it modest enough? Am I following the rules? Am I going to sweat to death in this thing? am I measuring up? And we live in a culture that is saturated with social media and filters and influencers and fashion trends and criticism of fast fashion. Don't buy cheap clothes because you know that, that all these, you can see how actually it's more complicated than you think. We see these carefully curated images. And clothing is more than just about something that we put on our bodies for function. What we wear is connected to messages of identity, who we are, who we're projecting ourselves to be, to standards of beauty, to, belonging to how we dress in a particular place, even issues of sexuality and modesty and confidence and comparison, our sense of worth. And for Christian women especially, there is another layer of complexity we'll talk about. A lot of women grew up with very rigid messages about modesty, about covering up. It was very legalistic approach, not really capturing the heart as well as I think was intended. And others have absorbed a culture that constantly tell women, hey, if you got it, flaunt it. That's the message. These are the competing messages. And somewhere between those extremes, women and girls are trying to figure out, okay, what does God actually say about this? And what is the truth? That is the tough question that Caroline Saunders began exploring in her new book, but what do I Wear? And Caroline set out to study clothing throughout the Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, and discovered the Bible actually has a lot more to say about clothing and covering than she expected to find. But rather than creating another list of rules about what women should or should not wear. She invites readers into the larger biblical story and explores what it means to be clothed in Christ. That's a message applicable to men, women, teenagers, children alike. We sing about it a lot in lyrics, but do we really live it now? This book addresses practical questions about clothing, how much time, how much money we spend, but also explores what's happening beneath the surface. When we're getting dressed produces frustration. You can see this in any number of sitcoms, of movies where people change their clothes a million times and the goal today isn't to tell women, okay, this is what you should wear, cuz I can't answer that question. But we can talk about how to help honor yourself, honor others, honor God, and ultimately get dressed and feel truth and joy and worship. I know that seems. That seems impossible.
Men, this conversation is for you too. So if you're a husband, a father, a grandfather.....
Now here's the, last thing before I bring Caroline on. Men, this conversation is for you too. So if you're a husband, a father, a grandfather, a brother, a pastor, a coach, a mentor, you know, you likely have women or girls in your life who are navigating these questions. And maybe you don't experience the same kinds of pressures that they around appearance that they do. And you may not always understand why something as simple as choosing an outfit can carry so much emotional weight. You may dread your wife asking, does this outfit make me look? Oh, you know what's coming. You know, some of you are cringing and running even right now. So it's not a conversation about fashion, but you have an opportunity to shape the voices that they talking about bigger issues of, of dignity and identity and beauty and discipleship and a culture. And what happens when we allow God's word and not the world and not shame and not a legalistic approach to shape the way we see see ourselves.
Caroline Saunders writes a book about getting dressed. It's called But What Do I Wear?
So joining us is Caroline Saunders. She's a writer, a Bible teacher, a pastor's wife, a mother of three. She's written children's book Bible Studies for Teen Girls, a women's Bible study, and she's bringing both biblical theology and a healthy dose of humor to this conversation. You can see that in the title. This book releases September 15th. It's called but what Do I Wear? The Biblical Story of Clothing, how it Helps us Think about Getting dressed, and approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. Caroline, welcome to the show. We're so glad to have you here.
Caroline Saunders: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this very important topic that happens, like you said, every single day. We got to get dressed.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We got to get dressed. You got to get dressed every day. You do. I hope that you are. And, you know, especially for. For women, for girls, for mothers, for daughters, even for father and daughters, this is a conversation that. There are a lot of arguments that happen around clothing. You can open any sitcom, you can see arguments where they say, you're not going out of the house looking like that. And. And just people changing for a first date. I mean, this really is a reality of everyday life. But before we get to your message on that, Caroline, let's go back and meet you.
Caroline was raised in a Christian home by two wonderful parents
I'd love for you just to introduce yourself to our listeners, tell them a little bit about your background, how you came to know the Lord, and how he brought you to this message, which seems like this would be an unlikely. Oh, what do you want me to say, God? Tell us your story.
Caroline Saunders: Well, I was raised in a Christian home by two really wonderful parents. I think that, while the Christian culture around me at that time leaned, it leaned a little legalistic, my home was not like that. I felt a really genuine faith for my parents. And I feel like I was taught to walk by the spirit, not walk by a sense of legalism. So I'm so grateful for that foundation. And I really became aware of my need for the Lord when I was 8 years old. You know, I'd been trying really hard to be the good girl, to do all the right things. And eventually I realized, oh, my goodness, I'm actually a sinner. I'm in desperate need of Jesus. And so I, you know, Jesus came into my life at that moment. He's been walking with me ever since. And, you know, it. It's at times been really complicated. You know, like, now I'm married to my high school sweetheart. He's a pastor at a church. And the Christian life might seem like it is really easy and really line, mirror. But sanctification is a complicated thing. And I'm so grateful that I've had the Lord. I mean, I've. I've needed him every single step, truly. And one practice that has brought me so close to him is this practice that I've done for the past 11 years of tracing a theme through the Bible story. So I literally start in Genesis. I've chosen a theme, and I keep an eye out for it. I watch it, I observe it over the course of the big story, and I see how it develops. And so this has been this beautiful habit that helps me really pay attention to, what I'm reading. I'm a victim of. Sometimes I'VE done a reading plan, and the words just seem like they just pass by and I don't absorb them. So this has been a really beautiful way for me to focus in on what I'm reading. And one year I just knew that the. That the theme needed to be the theme of covering slash clothing. And I'd wanted to do it for a while, and I finally had a chance to do it, and I really wasn't sure what I was, what I was going to see. A lot of the teachings that I had heard about clothing were really fell under the category of, like, cover up or care. Those were really the only messages that I had ever seen. And I didn't know what to expect. And I was stunned. I was stunned. I could not believe what a beautiful story the Bible tells. And of all the themes that I have traced, this is the one that felt the most personal. Clothes. We, you know, we want to dismiss them as superficial, but they're really personal to us. And so studying that theme m of covering slash clothing was so beautiful, ministered to me so deeply that even after I studied it, after my year of intense study was over, the story kept chasing me around. I would get dressed or have a fitting room incident, like you mentioned, with the mom and the daughter. We've all had a fitting room incident. And it would be in moments like that when God's story would come to mind, the Holy Spirit would call it to mind, and I would experience ministry from the Lord in that place. And it was so beautiful. So I'm just so grateful to God for his word. And it is a rescue. Even in the daily act of getting dressed, as stupid as it feels, when you, you know, you've tried on three outfits and now you're on the fourth and you're getting sweaty and you're starting to want to yell at everybody even there, like, God can minister to us. And I'm so thankful.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Caroline, that's pretty high billing there. I mean, if you looked at 11 different themes and this was the one that ministered to you so deeply, I think it wouldn't be the top of people's list to think like, oh, I want see what the Bible says about clothing from Genesis to Revelation. But I love the arc of the gospel. I love the narrative, the parallels that are there. The, you know, the curse and the unwinding of the curse. And I would really love to know some of the highlights that you found. Of course, we won't be able to cover all of them. You'll have to get the Book, if you want to read everything. But tell us some of the highlights. What were some of the marquee moments for you? Those, aha. Moments where you said, oh, I didn't know this.
Caroline Saunders: Well, everybody. You know, people who aren't even that familiar with the Bible know at least one thing about the first people. Adam and Eve, they were naked. They were naked. Like, we all know that. But. And it's not something I paid that much attention to. I mean, I had. But when I really thought about it, I thought, okay, they were naked and unashamed. like, that is the genesis to reality. Naked and unashamed. We cannot even imagine this, right? But there's this huge shift in Genesis 3. Sin enters the picture, and sin is this exposing force. And so I began right from the beginning to align Satan with exposure. And we see God, you know, there's consequences for their sin. But he could have said, I told y' all not to take the fruit, and you didn't listen. And you're gonna have to figure it out. He does not do that. They have clothed themselves insufficiently, right? They've used fig leaves. And if you've ever gone on a walk and found a beautiful leaf, you know, if you go save it on your counter at home, it's going to turn brown and crumbly. It's not good clothes for us. So Adam and Eve have tried to make this insufficient covering for themselves, and God instead offers them a truer and better covering. He takes one of the animals that Adam himself had named, and in a world where nothing had ever died before, he clothes them with the skin of an animal. So right there in the. In the third chapter of the whole book, we see that the naked and ashamed, if they are going to be sufficiently covered, death must occur. That is the lens through which we're supposed to begin to view things. And now Adam and Eve are clothed in a more lasting way, but of course, it points to something bigger. And I kind of wondered about Adam and Eve. Okay, are they thinking about that every time they get dressed? Are they pondering that? And is that something I should be thinking about when I get dressed? And then, of course, if we fast forward to the person of Jesus, we see that he is naked on the cross. Like, have we thought about that? And that he was exposed so that we might be covered? So if you look just at Genesis 2 and 3 and just at the crucifixion, there is going to be so much for us to process about what getting dressed. The story that getting dressed can actually teach Us.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay, Well, Caroline and I feel like you're living up to that high billing that is really fascinating to think about. And, one of the things that I love about scripture because really, even people who do not profess Christ, who are not. Who are not professing Christians, a lot of them know about the story of Adam and Eve. And just like you said, I mean, we see pictures of that in popular culture of the fig leaves and all of that. But to look at it through that gospel centric lens and to see from even very beginning to have that theme, the ark of redemption, already starting and to have God, who is rich in mercy, giving them a better covering, I had never thought about it like that, but that is pretty amazing. So you see, this is what I love about this framework because we're not just talking about what am I allowed to wear. Really. Caroline is asking a much deeper question. We're talking about who am I and what does I. What do what I want? What does what I wear communicate about how I understand who God is, who I am, and how I relate to other people. And this is complicated because we're navigating an entire culture that's telling us a completely different story. And if I have to say and be honest, much less compelling. And we'll talk about some of those competing messages when we come back.
The book is called but what Do I Wear?
The book is called but what Do I Wear? The Biblical Story of Clothing. How it helps us think about getting dressed and which makes me laugh. Approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. It's by Caroline saunders. It releases September 15th. You can order it now. We'll be right back on the other side of this break.
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Caroline Saunders writes about how Christians should approach dressing and choosing clothes
And one of those things that can feel overwhelming in daily life is what we're wearing. And I know you're thinking, like, okay, how can this relate? But you. If you were listening to the first segment, Caroline, just so beautifully laid out. Even in Genesis, we're talking about clothing because everybody knew, as she said, Adam and Eve were naked and ashamed. And she talked about God providing a, covering, and then Jesus being our covering all the way. Oh, that gospel arc beautiful. But in the reality of everyday clothing, we want to honor the Lord and what we are wearing. And I have had some listeners reach out to me before when I talked about purity culture and really be caught off guard that we would say anything, that we would be say anything that would seem critical toward purity culture. And I think purity culture was a movement that came in the 90s and the 2000s that really had a good goal of leading kids toward a pure life. But it leaned legalistic, and sometimes that impacted the messages that we gave girls and women about what they were wearing and impacted their identity. And there's some lessons to be learned learned there. And Caroline addresses that in her book, because there's two very different cultural messages that women are encountering today. One side is this message, like, your body is your power. Display it, perfect it, use it like whatever you want to do. And on the other side is, oh, your body is dangerous. Cover it, hide it. And if someone responds, wrongly to you, that's completely irresponsibility. But the truth is, neither one of those extremes tells the whole biblical story. And Caroline specifically addresses women who have experienced some different forms of baggage around clothing, coming from that and from other places, too. And as for. As parents, this is a really important conversation for us to have because our daughters are growing up in a world where they are navigating this. And this is really hard. Caroline. This is, a really tender space to step into, and there's a lot of feelings here. How do we step into this space with truth and grace. What did you learn in your study from Genesis, Revelation, about the Bible that impacted the way that you see how Christians, and especially Christian women, how we should approach getting dressed and choosing clothing that is honoring to us and honoring to the Lord?
Caroline Saunders: M. Well, one. One principle that was very formative through the Story is something I alluded to when I was talking about Genesis 2 and 3, that we see Satan immediately associated with exposure and we see God immediately associated with covering. And so if we think about God as the God who covers and we think about Satan as the accuser who exposes, that is going to inform how we talk to one another about our clothes. And that to me felt like one of the pitfalls of purity culture is that maybe we had, biblical principles in mind, but potentially we were not, communicating those principles with a gospel infused tone. You know, we, we often were, behaving like exposure exposers when we say, you know, young lady, go upstairs and change right now. And, and it's not that that a parent couldn't tell a kid to go change. I think that's on the table. But I think we have to be incredibly careful with how we communicate it because we are, we are entrusted with God's story and so we need to represent it well. And clothes are really personal. And so I think that I would encourage anybody talking to anyone else about clothes to be prayerful and humble and biblically informed about how you do it. Because another principle that I noticed it really in my own life is that clothing exposes things about us, right? So, for example, say I'm trying to get ready for church and I'm trying on 27 outfits. The real issue is not my clothes. And so if somebody were getting on to me about my clothes, that would show that they don't really understand what's going on in my heart. Because a lot of times what's really going on in my heart, maybe in my particular life is I mentioned my husband's a pastor. So sometimes I have this temptation to want to present well at church, to want my clothes to be like armor, to keep, to make me strong and to keep me safe against the criticism of other people. So that's what's actually going on. But if somebody dismissed it and said like, oh, you're just being superficial, oh, you just get dressed, oh, let's just go, or young lady, just go change, that same kind of thing, they're missing out on the actual ministry that I need. And so purity culture assumes, oh, you just need to cover up, your issue is that you're not covered up. And a lot of times the issue is something else. So I think that we can be wiser, we can be led by the spirit and we can view clothing, things that we see about somebody else that might be uncomfortable to us as an opportunity to be curious and to seek to offer the real ministry they need. And sometimes the real ministry is offering wisdom to a young lady who's not wearing something that's appropriate in that particular setting. And there's ways to do that that's appropriate too. You know, I think that we have, so associated with clothes, with morality. And a lot of times it's just the kids don't know we have to teach them. Right. I, remember, like, getting a wedding invitation, and I can't. I can't think of how the. The dress code was described, but I found it so confusing. And I'm googling, like, what's cocktail casual?
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know what I mean?
Caroline Saunders: Like, the. The literacy that we need to have to know how to get dressed in different places is something we have to teach one another to do. And so if a young lady comes to church and she's not dressed how she should be a church, or how she should be at summer camp or whatever. The thing is, maybe she just doesn't know so we can equip. It doesn't have to be about shame. It doesn't have to be with the tone of young lady cover up. There's just so many better things that we can do than, maybe the more shortsighted methods of purity culture.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so. You're so right. I agree with everything that you say. And sometimes they don't know. And sometimes this is what I see, especially as a pediatric nurse practitioner. I see kids for, well, child checks. I see kids all the time.
As kids go through puberty, their body really starts to change
And I want to talk about something for parents to really be aware of, because as kids start to go through puberty, their body really starts to change. So, you know, for boys, like, their shoulders are going to get wider. For girls, their hips are going to get wider. Their body changes in shape and form. And sometimes it can feel, Kids already feel uncomfortable about that. It feels like those puberty changes are just shouting, you know, and because they have this developmental lens where they think of personal fable, like, I'm on a stage and the world is looking at me like everyone is fixated on me. And of course that's not the truth, but they don't know that then. And sometimes it can be really hard when their bodies change and you don't really know how to dress in your new body yet, you know, and sometimes I see families, Caroline, who maybe don't have the resources to buy new clothes or to get different clothes at the pace that they are changing or they don't realize, like, all of a sudden it's like these Shorts that I've worn have been fine. I wore them when I was 10, 11. Now all of a sudden I wear them when I'm 12. I come downstairs and my dad is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, where are you going in those shorts? And, and the message that girls can internalize is, I'm fat. I, I've gained too much weight for these shorts. Like, I'm too big to wear these shorts. Or, you know, somehow, like, now that my body is changing, my body is bad and I have to cover that up. And I think we have to be so, so, so careful. And especially for fathers and daughters, because those daughters are on hyper alert for anything that their dad says because they're looking to see. Like, okay, my dad is a reflection of, of how men are going to treat me, how men are going to perceive me, what they think of me. And girls, you know, it can be more like argumentative is what I find. Like, moms and daughters are going to argue about that. You're not wearing that. Yes, I am. You know, it's not quite so personal. But did you find anything that could be a, ah, biblical encouragement for us, especially in that stage of life? Just being very careful how we're approaching clothes and being more compassionate and navigating our kids through puberty?
Caroline Saunders: You know, one thing that I think parents can do is we view our kids as an extension of ourselves. And so sometimes if they're not dressed in a way that we approve of, what's really happening is that we're not happy with how we are being presented to the world. So if your daughter's wearing something that you don't like to church or wherever, you want to fix it not because you're actually wanting to care for her, but because you're wanting to protect your image. So I think that is something that can come up a lot. That would be another thing that clothes expose. And so I think the best thing that a parent can do is truly to be really prayerful and try to walk by the spirit. Because your daughter needs you, she needs your help. and so you have to be careful that you are not just trying to shape her on the outside outside, but that you are ministering to her on the inside, fathers and daughters alike. And so sometimes our gut reaction to their clothes is not necessarily the right one because it might be like, oh, you're shocked because the short seems so short now. And really it's like she just got taller. It's not a moral issue. It's really a nothing. She's just taller. Now. And so sometimes we have to take a deep breath, we have to pause, and you have to process that. So I think that maybe there's wisdom in, being slow to speak. You know, that's like James's wisdom to us is to be slow to speak. But with clothes, we tend to be really quick to speak, and sometimes you feel like you have to because you have to get out the door. But I also think, to some extent, even as serious as our clothes feel in a conversation like that, they're not that serious. Like, if your daughter goes out wearing the wrong thing, nobody will die from this. It's going to be more important that you figure out the way to honor her and to respond to her in a way that is biblically informed, rather than just your gut reaction and trying to reshape her on the outside. I think if you're really after her heart and you really want to minister to her heart, that tends to take a little bit more time. And we may make some missteps in the wardrobe department along the way, but we're going to make missteps anyways. So it's like, It's like caring about what really matters, and rather than just being somebody who cares about the appearance of things, you
Dr. Jessica Peck: just gave some serious truth in that.
Clothes give us a lot of information about our personality and who we are
Caroline, I, want to go back to what you're saying about if we're really honest. And I know it's hard, and honestly, I think every parent everywhere could think about that. And to some extent, you know, you tend to get more relaxed as a parent. I know when I had my first, like, I wanted to make sure that we looked great, even if we were, you know, going out to the grocery store because somebody might admire my baby. And by the fourth, I was like, like, all right, cowboy boots and a swimsuit? Like, sure, yeah, I'm down totally. You do get more relaxed in that. But you did say an important truth that I think it's worth going back to revisit, because clothes are so personal, and they're such an extension of ourselves. And when we look at somebody with. From a first impression, most of that is going to come. Come from their clothes. We're seeing what they're wearing. Like, is it name brand? Are they, you know, just. Is it designer? Is it tailored? Is it casual? Is it professional? Is it, you know, athletic? Like, it gives, clothing gives us a lot of information about our personality and who we are. And in this day and age where really culture is pushing us to make our kids products that we manufacture to the world. And we advertise them on our own social media because they're part of our image crafting. I know these are. I'm cringing even as I'm saying these things because it sounds so harsh, but it's so true. Caroline. How can we really check our own hearts and say, like, okay, is this an issue of, I, you know, want my child to always be polished and professional and look together. This isn't what I am. How do we differentiate the gospel issues in that and use a, biblical lens to re examine our own hearts and motivations before we decide what's a battle worth fighting?
Caroline Saunders: my number one recommendation is going to be the very end of Psalm 139. I think it's a passage that maybe would be good for every parent to memorize. But at the end of Psalm 139, he says, search me, O God, and know my heart, try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any grievous way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. We don't often know what is inside of us, but God does know, and he will reveal it to us. And he doesn't reveal it to us in a shaming way like the Experience Exposer does, but he does show us what is dangerous to us. And so I think to be a thoughtful parent, we have to be willing to ask God to search us and to know us and to show us anything in us that grieves him. And we can trust that he'll lead us in the way everlasting. And so if you are grieved by something that your kid's wearing, if it bothers you, that is a call to, to prayer. And it may also be a call to processing with another trusted Christian, processing with a spouse. Sometimes you can even, talk with your daughter about this. You know, it would be okay possibly to say, you know, something about some of these outfits that you've set aside that you want to wear to school next week. I'm uncomfortable with it, and I want to think about why. but I want you to know in the meantime that I love you and I care about you and I care about, what you care about. And so, so let me think about what it would look like for us to honor yourself, to honor others, and to honor God. And that can be part of the language in your house. And I think just that humility and that processing with the Lord and that open communication with him and with the people in your lives is going to be really, really helpful. And really protective. And it's also going to train your kids to think that getting dressed is not like a uniform. It's something they're going to have to process forever. Like, like them being in your home for you to train them now is wonderful because one day they're going to be a grown up like you in their own home and they're still not going to know all the answers, just like you don't know all the answers. And so to train them to, to think biblically and to walk by the spirit, I just think is so, so beautiful. And we can offer such kindness to one another when every time we get dressed there's a clothing issue, we get rerouted in this story of being clothed in Christ. And when that informs the way we get dressed, I mean, what a relief to everybody.
Dr. Jessica Peck: What a relief. Well, we'll talk more when we come back about getting dressed as an act of worship. Not the title of her book is Not Is. But what Do I Wear? Not what Do I not wear, but what Do I Wear? And we'll talk about that. And Carolyn, I think those are such great words of wisdom because a lot of times what our kids put on it can cause some fear. We're like, oh, well, like this T shirt isn't exactly giving a message I'm comfortable with. Or you're dressing like, you know, you're, you're going to hang out with a different crowd of people that I don't know if this is the best for you or if you're, you know, not, not, rising to those standards of modesty that we want to embrace as a family. That's a great call to prayer and it's a way deeper issue than clothing. We'll be right back with more from Caroline Saunders on But what do I wear? See you after this break.
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Yet Not I But Through Christ In Me by City Alight: Oh, how strange and divine I can sing all this morning. Welcome back, friends. That is yet not I But through Christ in me by City a Light definitely in my top 10 this week. These songs are so encouraging to me. When you feel overwhelmed by the weight of the world, it is just such a good reminder to remember that it's not I, it's not us, it is Christ in us. And one of the things, things as parents today and just as people that is really hard to navigate is the world of what to wear. What in the world should I wear? And we know the Bible has so much to say about what we are wearing. And one of the verses that many of you are probably familiar with is isn't the you know about what doesn't. If he closed the lilies of the field, will he not so much more clothe me. And we're talking to Caroline Saunders today, who is the author of a new book coming out September 15th. It's called but what Do I Wear? The Biblical Story of Clothing, how it Helps us Think about getting dressed, and approximately 17 stories I may regret telling. This is a really practical book that has discussion questions in it that you can use. You can open conversations with your kids. Caroline was just sharing with me during the break that is one of her goals to say we can talk about this and we can do it. Well, we've learned some lessons from purity culture that was well intentioned, but we've learned some pitfalls of that, as Caroline put it, and I agree with that. And when we look at getting dressed, we can actually look at getting dressed as an act of worship. So it changes the question from do I look good enough? Is this, is this good? Is this acceptable? Like, is this what I'm supposed to wear? Is this cocktail casual for the wedding, you know, that's given me a dress code or whatever it is to how can I honor God, honor myself and honor other people? By the way that I'm dressed today and I see this. This is actually a really interesting topic of conversation and professional worlds. And we're seeing some professional literature come out saying that even when you go into your healthcare provider, you absolutely judge us by what we are wearing. You are looking. And it tells us so much about what we are, what we are. But we can dress in a way that honors the Lord. And so we'll talk about that. But Caroline, you know, it's great. You, you said during the break to me that, you know, we want this, like, list of do's and don'ts. Like, okay, just give me exactly the roadmap. But God just gives us more freedom than that and more freedom in our, in our sanctification.
Caroline: How do women seek healing from hurtful comments about dress?
So before we talk about how to dress as an act of worship, talk to those women, because I know they're out there, I know they're listening, who were hurt by some comments that happened by someone who is maybe well meaning, but who brought a lot of shame to them for what they were wearing or what they were doing. How do you seek healing from that? Because I know those words can carry weight for years after they happen.
Caroline Saunders: they really can. And any woman who has gone through that really has my heart. She is not alone. Unfortunately, that's a really common story. And sometimes the people are well intentioned and just have had terrible words. And sometimes the people were not well intentioned. And all of it is so deeply painful to us. And that, I think is part of why I was so surprised by the message of the Bible that God is a God who covers the naked and ashamed, not a God who points at, the naked and ashamed and laughs or scoffs or judges. And so I think that knowing more of who God is is going to be such a ministry to that woman. And especially if the person who, who said the hurtful things was a spiritual leader, we might, you know, without even realizing it, conflate that person's posture with God's posture. And that is why they're going to be so stunned by God's story. Like, think about the story of the prodigal son. The son comes home to his father and he's humiliated and he's disgusting. And the Father could have said, ew, like go clean up and come back when you look. Or he could have said any number of things. But the Father clothes him. It says, in the best robe. And in that culture, that likely meant a robe from the patriarch's closet, from his own closet. He clothes him in his robe. And that is the God that we serve. And so whatever that person said to you, however confusing it was and however painful it was, that person does not represent the Lord's posture towards you. He wraps you up in his own robe. That's why this idea of being clothed in Christ is so beautiful, because Christ was exposed on the cross so that we could be covered in his righteousness and his strength and his dignity and his wisdom. It's such a beautiful covering. So I think Those moments of pain can be something that leads that woman to praise the Lord. Because we thought God was going to be like these people around us. We thought God was going to be like us, us. And he's not. He's the God who covers the naked and ashamed. And it's such a beautiful story.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's a beautiful story, and it's a really beautiful picture. To think of that, to think about, you know, if you've been a place where you felt exposed and to have someone give you a covering like that, and to imagine that's God's heart for us, that. That's a really big shift. Because I think you're right. I think a lot of times when people experience hurt, especially from spiritual leaders, they kind of project that attitude like, God is ready to point out all of my sins, all of my mistakes, all of the things that are wrong about me. Like, I can't be too vulnerable in this church setting because I'm so exposed. But to really have that thought that God is not there as the exposer, as the accuser, he is the COVID that. That's a really big shift in thought. And another big shift is not thinking about, you know, when you're getting dressed, like, okay, what should I not wear? What's not appropriate, what's too much? What is. Is, you know, too little to thinking, how do I get dressed in a way that is an act of worship? That's a pretty radical question. What are some practical guidance that you have? If you have any checklist that I would. I would welcome that, Caroline, but I know that's not promised.
Caroline Saunders: You know, we are dying for a checklist. I want one, too. I'm like, I wish that just there was another book in the Bible that had a little dress code, and we would just all do that and we wouldn't have to think about it. But that is not what God has done. That is not what God has offered. We are supposed to walk by the spirit. And that means things tend to be really complicated. We have to wrestle through this.
Beautiful clothes are an opportunity to worship the Lord, right?
But one of the things in the Bible that is. That surprised me is how much. How many beautiful clothes are on it. Right? There's we. The. The story starts with a wife who is naked and ashamed, but it ends with a bride who is clothed beautifully, she's adorned. This is the bride of Christ. All Christians, for all of time. And you can go read about her outfit. And it is symbol, and it is beautiful and it is glorious. And God is using something that he knows we're gonna like. Beautiful Clothes to teach us something about him, that he is the God who covers. And he doesn't cover us in, like, a dutiful way. He covers us in a delightful way. Like, in actually a beautiful way. And so, I mean, I remember a, couple years ago, I bought this new dress to wear to a friend's wedding. And I love this dress. And I had a little thing in me that was like, oh, you're being so superficial for loving this dress. And then the story came to mind, and I thought, you know what? This is a beautiful dress. And when I enjoy it because I'm remembering how God has clothed me, that too is an act of worship. Or I think about when my daughter turned one, There was this dress I really wanted for her that was just so cute. And, you know, we. We were going to be practical and not get it and not get it. And then eventually my husband was like, just get it. Why don't you get it for her? I bought her this dress, and I'm telling you, it was not an act of, extravagance and a money sense. It was an act of love. I just was like, I love this little girl. I treasure this little girl. I cherish her, and I'm going to adorn her in this way. And so I think that sometimes just a, beautiful outfit is this act of worship of, like, God, thank you for how you have clothed me. It is even better than this dress. And this is a really great dress. Or when our outfit is terrible, it's another opportunity to worship the Lord, right? Like, I've had moments where I hate my outfit. Everything I put on is so stupid. Like, why did I ever buy any of this? Everything's trash. Burn it down, Down. And then sometimes it's an act of worship as an act of humility. I have to say, God, I am wearing whatever is currently on my body, and I am leaving because you have clothed me in Christ. And so I'm free to wear something that I don't think looks that good. So I think that there's so many opportunities to worship the Lord. And sometimes it's through enjoying our clothes, and sometimes it's through caring less about our clothes. And all of that has just been such a ministry to me. Me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that really changes the way the conversation when you talk about, like, time and money, because that can often be, a point of, of inflection on Christian discipline. Like, okay, am I. Am I wasting money here? Am I not? But you describing it the way that you described it, that that's absolutely beautiful. And I have little girls. And I remember, you know, sometimes, like, my husband would take them when they were little, they'd go on daddy daughter dates. And if he bought them something to wear, which usually there was one time, okay, I'll, I'll say this where it was one time, he was like, oh, I bought them this dress. And I look at the dress, I'm like, this is an adult T shirt. This is not a little girl dress. But God bless him, he tried, but it didn't matter because their daddy had bought them something to wear because he thought that they were beautiful and he took them out as a special treat. And thinking about that in the way, way that God treats us, that, he adorns us, and even how you described from, you know, Eve in Genesis to the bride of Christ in Revelation, that's absolutely beautiful.
Romans 8 talks a lot about walking by the Spirit versus walking by flesh
Is there any other shift in thought that you have, any other tips that you have where we can really continue just to shift our mindset from that worldly perspective to a, gospel centered perspective?
Caroline Saunders: I think that it's worth, worth thinking about where in your life of getting dressed you need to be more serious and where you need to be less serious. There are just times when, you know, as an active, serious discipline, you need to, not buy anything new for a while, or you need to not wear the outfit that looks really good on you because you think it might be dishonoring to somebody else or whatever. There's times to be really serious and there's times when it's like, okay, whatever, that you are clothed in Christ, so it's just not that serious. And walking by the Spirit is what's going to help us determine which. What's one way or the other. So, you know, Romans 8 talks a lot about walking by the Spirit versus walking by the flesh. And it's easy to get dressed walking by the flesh. And you can even look very religious while you do it. But if you want to actually like, love the Lord and in whatever you do, whether you eat or drink or put on clothes, I think that there's just this call to walk by the spirit. And it is kind of messy. You know, it doesn't have like a list to it. It's not that tidy of a thing. But it is really beautiful to live out a true story rather than, cling to whatever made up spiritual dress code that we have invented for ourselves. So just. And commission anybody to think through what it looks like to walk by the Spirit. It in your closet, with your body, with your Clothes with your budget in your particular, places where you go and, what a beautiful journey that will be between you and the Lord.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, someone who I think modeled this really well in my life is actually my granny. She was a precious lady, just a, woman of God. A woman who always had her guidepost devotional open to the right day, and her tithing check is her bookmark. And she was soft, you know, she was really nice to hug. And I never heard her say anything negative about her body, but she would always wear she, like. And during the day when she was running around town, she might wear like a, a sweatsuit, but she'd have her pearls on. Like, she'd have her pearls on her little cross, you know, because she was a lady and that was what she wanted to convey to everybody. And if she was going to church, she was going to wear her church dress. And she dressed appropriately for the occasion. She dressed modestly, but she never, never criticized herself. She never, you know, I never saw her, like, change her clothes a million times. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, man, you're describing my granny. I need to be more like that and just go out and take it less seriously and just be in my sweats and pearls and be like, hey, I'm here for action, but I'm also a lady. And so I'm there.
Caroline says the most important thing about an outfit is being clothed in Christ
I want to know, Caroline, what do you hope that people, especially women who read your book, what do you hope that they'll walk away from it when with.
Caroline Saunders: You know, I have been doing this really silly thing on Instagram where I do a video of what I'm wearing. And I say, but the most important thing about my outfit is that I'm clothed in Christ and forcing myself to do that. Which, by the way, that's like a huge violation of my personality. I don't want to create content like that, but I'm trying to like. But it's just what you say.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah.
Caroline Saunders: well, yeah, it's been just kind of this important discipline of even when I hate the outfit, because sometimes I do or sometimes I love it or somewhere in the middle, usually to train myself to think. The most important thing about my outfit is that I'm clothed in Christ. For Christian women, for that to be like the sort of godly, intrusive thought that happens when they look in the mirror after getting dressed for the day, I think that can be really life changing and really beautiful. So that's. I'm hoping that women carry that, that the story leaks into their story. And begins to inform the way they walk in their lives.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I can even hear. I think husbands can take that for a line from you. When. When women are saying, okay, how does this look? How do I look? You can the an guys here, I'm going to give you the answer. The answer is you look beautiful in anything you wear. But the most important thing is that you're clothed in Christ. Like, okay, there's your bonus for the day. You'll get some bonus brownie points. No woman is going to be mad about that answer at all. And Carolyn, I just thank you so much for helping us take something as ordinary as getting dressed every day and seeing the bigger biblical story underneath it. I have been so encouraged by this conversation because ultimately, ultimately you are so right. This is not about clothes. It is about the messages we believe about ourselves. Whether our daughters grow up believing their bodies are something, display something to hide, something to perfect. But what we want is them to see it as something to steward as women created in the image of God, as men created in the image of God. For that, because we haven't even talked about, I, I've talked with a lot of teenage girls who say, hey, let's not talk about modesty culture and leave the boys out because, you know, tight shorts can be a thing or tight pants can be a thing. So we're not forgetting that. We'll leave that for another day. But thanks for helping us move beyond legalism and cultural presence to really something much better. To dressing as an act of worship. You are made in the image of God, you are loved by God, and ultimately you are clothed in Christ. And that is amazing. Much more beautiful and worthy garment than anything that could ever be hanging in your closet. The book releases September 15 from B& H Publishing. Get a copy. And as you do, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. See you next time.
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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Jessica welcomes author Caroline Saunders to discuss what the Bible actually says about clothing and her deep dive into the subject for her new book entitled "But What Do I Wear?"
https://www.writercaroline.com/
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Chapters:
(06:13) Men, this conversation is for you too. So if you're a husband, a father, a grandfather.....
(07:09) Caroline Saunders writes a book about getting dressed. It's called But What Do I Wear?
(08:18) Caroline was raised in a Christian home by two wonderful parents
(16:03) The book is called but what Do I Wear?
(16:27) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(18:11) Caroline Saunders writes about how Christians should approach dressing and choosing clothes
(24:30) As kids go through puberty, their body really starts to change
(28:54) Clothes give us a lot of information about our personality and who we are
(33:49) Discover the story of the culture warrior Don Wildmon
(37:40) Caroline: How do women seek healing from hurtful comments about dress?
(41:47) Beautiful clothes are an opportunity to worship the Lord, right?
(45:24) Romans 8 talks a lot about walking by the Spirit versus walking by flesh
(48:08) Caroline says the most important thing about an outfit is being clothed in Christ
(50:55) Preborn has rescued over 400,000 thousand babies from abortion
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