American Family Radio thanks Preborn for helping save over 50,000 unborn babies
Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR what if one moment could change a life forever? Every day, mothers facing unplanned pregnancies walk into PreBorn Network clinics searching for hope. Through a free ultrasound, they meet their baby for the very first time. And when they see that tiny life and hear that heartbeat, everything can change.
Dan Steiner: Hey friend. Dan Steiner, president at PreBorn here with a heartfelt thank you. Because you know what? This year so far, your partnership with PreBorn has saved over 50,000 babies and moms from abortion. And it wouldn't have happened without you. What you are doing together with PreBorn is truly changing generations. Every tax deductible dollar that you give is used to rescue babies lives and lead moms to Jesus Christ. So far this year alone, We've seen over 8,000 women give their hearts to Christ. All because you helped with an ultrasound scan for $28 or a machine for $15,000. So thank you. Your caring help so saves lives both for earth and for eternity. God bless you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And there's even more to celebrate. This year alone, more than 5,100 women have made decisions for Christ through the ministry of PreBorn. That's because your generosity saves lives for both earth and eternity. Right now, more mothers are waiting for that life changing moment. $28 helps to provide one life saving ultrasound $140 helps rescue five babies to donate dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby or visit preborn.com/AFR that's preborn.com/AFR every gift is tax- deductible.
: Hello and welcome to the doctor nursemama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for healthy families.
As families wrestle with questions of morality and identity, biblical authority is crucial
We are gonna talk about something today that is probably was probably not on your list when you woke up this morning thinking, okay, I wanna learn some things about deuteronomy today that is on my bucket list on My to do list today, well, you may not have known it, but that is what the Lord has for us today. And I'm so excited to talk about this because there are, especially in this day and age when we have unprecedented access to information, there are increasing influencers who are competing for spe space to tell you how to interpret God's Word. And we need to be really careful and thoughtful and intentional and make sure that we are studying God's Word ourselves. We're not outsourcing the Holy Spirit. We are really seeking God's Word and seeking wisdom and seeking to grow. And God's Word is eternal. It Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And in a culture that is constantly shifting, God's Word is a foundation upon which we can build our family. And when we think about the Old Testament, there are a lot of Christians I'm seeing increasingly. So that's my sense and what I'm seeing that are approaching the Old Testament with some uncertainty, like thinking, okay, the stories are familiar, but the law feels really distant. It's confusing, it's burdensome. I think I'd just rather hang out in Psalms or John or something more comfortable. And in a culture that equates freedom with doing, hey, whatever we want, the idea that God's commands are actually expressions of his love can really seem counterintuitive. But throughout Scripture, God reveals that his boundaries are not designed to restrict human flourishing. In fact, the opposite, it's to protect it and to guide his people into abundant life. And as families are wrestling increasingly with questions of morality and identity and truth and biblical authority, there may be no more timely message than recovering a right understanding of God's character. And that's what brings us back to the book of Deuteronomy. This captures Israel standing on the edge of the Promised Land, facing a defining choice. Will they trust God's ways or will they seek security and meaning somewhere else? And according to theologian and Bible teacher Katie J. McCoy, that same question confronts every generation of believers today. And she has a new seven session Bible study Forever for Our Good. And this particular Bible study invites women to see God's law not as a list of outdated rules, but as an expression of his covenant love, an invitation into a wholehearted devotion. And today's conversation is invitation for everyone to experience the same. Now, Katie holds a PhD in Systematic Theology. She has researched the themes of justice for women in Old Testament law, the intersection of theology and culture. And she is a voice that is helping Christians think biblically about today's biggest issues. So today we're going to explore Katy's own story and calling and talk about the relevance of Deuteronomy. How does God's eternal truth shape the everyday lives of our families? Katie welcome. We're so glad to have you here.
Katie J. McCoy: Thank you so much, Dr. Jessica. thank you for having me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I am so glad to have you because I think these are questions that we're wrestling with. So for us just to be able to have an honest conversation and to be able to talk about these things that families are wondering about, I feel like it's going to be really helpful. And I know having sat behind this microphone now for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shows that every author has a journey that shapes the message they bring into the world.
Dr. Jessica Peck: How.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Introduce yourself to our listeners and tell a little bit about the path that God brought you here to today to share about, share with us about the Book of Deuteronomy.
Katie J. McCoy: You know, I fell into studying this book, and, and I had never done an in depth study of the Book of Deuteronomy, until embarking on this seven week study forever for our good. What I had done was, and you mentioned it earlier in, in my, my bio is that my research focused on old laws about women and what they tell us about God ultimately, and then about who God's people are called to be in society. It is absolutely remarkable to study these Old Testament laws in their cultural context. Now that's a big, that's a big part of it though, because when we have our 21st century American Western lenses on, we read the Bible and we read it essentially through the wrong set of glasses. So we have to change our glasses prescription, so to speak, to understand everything that the biblical law is revealing. And all throughout Deuteronomy, something that you find is the Lord is saying, this is what a just society looks like. This is what we should do when something happens that never should have happened. And you know, sometimes we read the laws and they seem so obscure, and they're written, thousands of years ago to a culture that is in some ways diametrically opposite of our own culture. And it's really easy to look at it and say, what in the world does this have to do with me? And oftentimes we just kind of power through it. If you're doing that reading through the Bible every year planned, you know, around March, you just got to kind of grin and bear it and get through Leviticus, numbers and Deuteronomy. Right. and, and because of that, we'll just Say, oh, well, that's all Old Testament. I'm not, I'm not under that. Jesus has set us free from that. And that's true. We're no longer under the ceremonial laws or even the civil laws of, of punishments for things that happen in society. But the moral law of God is still in effect even more, even more. the New Testament says we fulfill the law of God by the Spirit. And so it's kind of ironic, isn't it, that we wouldn't at least know what it is that we, that we would pass over it and think, oh, it's just Old Testament. I don't need to, I don't actually need to know what this law is saying. And yet this is what Romans 8 describes. We are fulfilling by the Spirit. And so that is what all throughout this book we're doing. and I absolutely loved studying. I'll tell, I'll tell you, one big takeaway right away is we actually, if you go through the Bible study, you don't actually start going through the commands until a lot later in the study than you might think. Because like all the rest of scripture, Moses first deals with people's hearts. For the first several chapters, he's talking about the heart posture that they have towards the Lord. Chapter, several chapters worth. Before ever talking about, okay, now here's what you're supposed to do. and so one of the things I love about this book is how cohesive it is with the rest of the Bible. It's not. It's not a different gospel, it's not a different God. It's just a different point in God's history of redemption.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm so encouraged by what you're saying because you're reminding me of the scripture. You know, all scripture is useful as God breathed and useful for, reproof, correction, training, depending on which, whatever, pick your version of what you have, but for, for training in righteousness. And all Scripture is useful. And you also reminded me of something my pastor often says that we're trying to read an Eastern book with Western eyes. And so sometimes that impacts the filter with which we look at it. But all scripture is pointing us back to who God is, the character and nature of God. And once we learn more, I found that as I learned more about God, I learn more about who he created me to be. And Katie somebody he created you to be, somebody who's really smart. I'm just going to put it out there and say, you have a PhD in Systematic Theology. Now, I know there's Lots of people, including me, saying, wait, what is that? And you've spent years studying scripture and culture, but one of the encouraging messages that you bring to us today is you want to make theology accessible for everyone, that you don't have to have a PhD in Systematic Theology to read the book of Deuteronomy. Talk to us a little bit about the tension that's in there, because I know people often say the same thing to me, like, you're a pediatric nurse practitioner, you're a professor. You know, how. How do you do this? Well, there's still a big learning curve, and we're here to help share some of those tools, but also make it like this is, this is God's design for everybody. How can you encourage us in that way?
Katie J. McCoy: I love that question.
If you are reading your Bible and making conclusions, you are doing theology.
So, first of all, a couple of preliminary thoughts. First of all, if you are reading your Bible and making conclusions, you are doing theology. You are a theologian, whether or not you realize it, because every time you encounter scripture, you encounter the truth of God and you recognize something, something about who God is, how he created us to live, who we are, what he says about the world, what he says about our lives and our purpose. You are doing theology. We are all living according to theology, and we are all theologians. Now, thankfully, throughout history, God gives, different people at different times to, have the opportunity to study in depth and to be able to serve the churches with that, that sphere of study, that background, if you will. So, for instance, you, in the medical profession, you would probably agree, like most people, if they decided to sit down and learn everything, they could do it. They could learn all of the facts. They could learn how to think like someone who is, a nurse. Most people can also sit down and learn how to think like a theologian. And this is, this is where we have a breadth, just a gluttony of theological resources between podcasts and websites and sermon series and books like this. So I just want to encourage everybody to know you are a theologian. You are doing theology all the time. The only question is how. And so it takes things like digging into scripture, learning how to study that refines, builds that muscle, so to speak. The other thing to encourage your listeners with is this theological knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity. Theological knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity. I, can tell you that I could read all the books, and I've read different whole systematic theologies on everything that the Bible says about different topics. But my spiritual maturity is dependent on the really basic things, like how I respond to God in love and obedience. And so I hope that would encourage your listeners. I, I, like so many people, found something that I loved and kept, going down that, that road. Had the opportunity to, But, but really when it comes down to it, though, Jessica, what the things that, that really shaped me through studying Deuteronomy. Yeah, some things were these really intricate. The, a lot of it. It was just the basics.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That, again, is really encouraging because I think we do live in an age of information overload. And I'm increasingly seeing that you, you mentioned that, Katie in the healthcare profession, I mean, usually now when people have come in, they have not looked in the encyclopedia like that. That used to be the only resource.
Katie J. McCoy: Right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, they, they have already searched, they have asked people, they have looked at AI, they have looked at Internet search engines to figure out, you know, okay, what is, what do I kind of want to come into. Then I partner with them. Okay, all right. Yeah, I've been here a long time. I know which voices are trusted and aren't. And I see a lot of parallels there. Katie for our spiritual growth, because, yes, we should be. It should be both. And like, we should never outsource the reading of our Bible. We need to be reading our Bible in our homes. You need to be asking the Holy Spirit to help you as you read, to give you wisdom, to give you discernment, to give you insight. And you need to be walking in a Bible based, theologically sound church under the teaching of a pastor who's going to help you and do that. Do you, do you agree with that? Do you see that parallel? It's amazing to me, I think, how I see the parallel.
Katie J. McCoy: Yes, a hundred percent. And, and with that too, recognizing that just as there, we have medical professionals who devote their lives to studying so that they can be a resource for other people. it's the same way for some people, they're called to go to seminary, they're going to go get a doctorate and something. The whole point of it is not to stand over people and talk down. It is to be a resource. It is to be l resource for other people in their growth, in their spiritual health. But that doesn't mean you just check your brain at the door and sort of take what somebody else is giving you. We are to be inquisitive. We are to take responsibility for our spiritual and our physical health along with the people that God's given us to help. To help, do that. Well, so I love that correlation. I think it's a really good analogy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, thanks for that.
Everybody should be in some form of Bible study. What Bible study are you in?
Katie and a good resource that you've provided is this Bible study Forever for Our Good. It's by Katie J. McCoy. It's a study of the Book of Deuteronomy and I encourage you to think about it and think about whatever you're studying. What Bible study are you in? Everybody needs to be in some form of Bible study. It's not just academic, it's profoundly personal. Because understanding who God is changes how we understand ourselves, how we see and interpret our choices in the world around us, and the goodness of God. And God's goodness is for us. When we come back, we'll have more conversation about how do we see God's law through the lens of grace. And Katie will share with us more lessons that she has learned from the book of Deuteronomy and how things are for our good. God is for our good. Even a world that seems wildly not good at times. We'll talk about that when we come back.
Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
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Oh But God by Davy Flowers: And I traded my chains for your freedom Cause you were the one that I needed oh but God resurrected my heart from the room ruins and my rescue came through like the morning and now this is my true testimony oh but God oh but God Rich and mercy how you love me too much to let me stay long My salvation heaven.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome m back friends. That is oh but God by Davy Flowers But God are my two favorite words together in the history of ever and I'm so grateful for the grace that God has given me in my life. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be here today with Katie J. McCoy, a theologian who was talking with us about her new Bible study called Forever for Our Good, a study of the book of Deuteronomy. And again, this is not usually a book I think that people gravitate to and people usually will gravitate more toward a topical study. But all ah, scripture is beneficial for us and Katie is here to talk about that.
The title of this study is Forever for Our Good. How did you settle on that title?
And Katie I want to go to the title of this study Forever for Our Good. And I think increasingly we see a culture that is has a counter narrative to that saying that how can that be this world is so bad so far gone, so messed up. How can a, good God be present in a world that seems anything but? How did you settle on that title for, for the study? And how have you seen the goodness of God in your own life?
Katie J. McCoy: Such a great question. So that phrase forever for our good, it is, an adaptation of a phrase that appears in Deuteronomy, and it's describing the law that God has given his people for their good always. So from that phrase, for your good always, I thought forever for our good. That's what God's laws are. And when we see, when we encounter the moral and ethical principles in God's law, we're not only seeing what is righteous and just and good, because it is the law of God, who is himself righteous, just and good, but we're seeing how we were made to live. You know, one of the most humbling realizations that I know I came to is that in my 30, 35, 40, 40 plus years on Earth, how can I possibly know everything that is right for me to do in life? How can I possibly think that with a limited perspective I can know what is going to be the most fulfilling life? Because if I'm following my heart as my culture tells me to, well, my heart changes, my heart is wrong. My heart gets things very off, from what is good for me. And so often I'm, sure other people who are listening can relate to this. We think that we are chasing something that is good. And God will put a roadblock. He will allow it not to work out. The opportunity doesn't come through, the relationship falls apart. Because what God knows is that he is, is always working for our good and that his ways are how we are made to live. So his commands, if they are truly forever for our good, it means that this is how we are supposed to live. This is how we're supposed to walk in this world and to fulfill our purpose as those who are God's ambassadors. You know, we talked earlier about kind of the correlation between the Old and NewSong Testament of the message of it. And we see that in the book of Deuteronomy. We see in Deuteronomy that Moses is reminding the people of Israel that their blessings are not for themselves. They were set apart by God at that point in God's redemption history, to be his messengers, his ambassadors, really, his missionaries. And the same is true with us. We've been given the goodness of God, we've been given the blessing of God. We've been given the Testimony of Romans 8, 28 that he works all things together for our good when we love him and are called according to his purpose. Those are blessings of the goodness of God that we have received by faith those promises. But they are not for ourselves alone. They are for us to be God's messengers, his ambassadors, his missionaries. And so my hope is that by seeing this phrase forever for our good, people would look at it and say, that's not quite as scary or stodgy or, boring as I would have expected a study on the Deuteronomy. On the book of Deuteronomy to sound like. And the truth is, it's not. If you have never studied this book, I can almost guarantee you there are aspects about who God is that are waiting for you to. To discover through his law. even if you've been walking with the Lord for many years, I. I think that you will fall. Fall deeper in love with this God who is the God of the law of the Bible, by the time you are finished reading and studying the law of Deuteronomy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is a pretty bold claim, Katie It really is.
Katie J. McCoy: But I stand by it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I know you do. Because God's word is living and powerful and pierces through this, you know, to joint and marrow. I. I keep thinking about that, and it's so true when I read it. And you learn more about God and especially learning some of the cultural applications that maybe you wouldn't see before. It is a really rich experience.
Katie: Relationship is the foundation of everything else in Deuteronomy
And, you know, Katie as you're talking and even thinking about the title of this book, Forever for Our Good, I think about the song the Goodness of God, which is pretty popular right now, playing on the radio, and. And not too long ago, you know, we were singing in a church service that I was at, and I remember just kind of singing those lyrics, like, without even thinking about it, because sometimes we do that with worship songs and getting to the part. All my life you have been faithful. All my life you've been so, so good. And I remember stopping in that moment and thinking, wait, do I really believe that? Like, I just sang it, but do I really believe that? And I thought about, you know, some of the points in my life that seemed so not good. And now that I've lived long enough, you know, I'm through that, 30s, 40s, you know, that you mentioned earlier, I can see some of the things that, you know, I look back, I think in particular, one relationship restoration that I wanted, thinking, how can God not be for relationship restor. But then recognizing that, you know, that some. The distance that was There was necessary for breaking some generational cycles that were there. What do you see going back? I mean, we're talking about this, but you keep pulling it back to Deuteronomy. How do you see that? Like, I'm standing here, I'm looking for the goodness of God in my life, even in times that aren't good. How do you specifically relate that back? How do you see that come through in learning about God's character and really that this is overflowing? the law is an overflow of his covenant love for us. How does that truth go from Deuteronomy to today?
Katie J. McCoy: Yes. So the, the real linchpin to all of that, to that question is relationship. So what we see in the book of Deuteronomy is first God establishes a covenant before anything else, before he tells them what to do, before he tells them how to live. He tells them who he is to them and who they are to Him. So the covenant is the foundation of everything else that we see in the book of Deuteronomy. And because of that covenant, because of the promises of God's covenant, we have a changed relationship with the Lord. Now, again, before we talk about fulfilling the commands of God for, walking in obedience, this is where we live. If we are in Christ, we have received a covenant that the Lord Jesus purchased for us by his blood. And we are, as a result of that covenant, walking in a new relationship. And what that means is that because we have a new relationship with the Lord, we now have a new relationship with everything else. With our deepest pain, with the heartbreak, with the unexpected sorrows, with the setbacks, with the plans that did not go how we thought they would or wanted them to. What it means is that because we are in this new established relationship with the Lord now, all of the promises of God have been transferred to us. All of the promises of God that He has made for our good are credited to our account, Ephesians describes, sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our down payment. Not only that we have those promises, but we have the promises that we have yet to see realized in, in our real lives. So on that basis, the covenant and the relationship, because of those two things, we respond in faithful obedience. We respond in obedience from a heart of love. And that means sometimes, Jessica, we don't understand. We don't understand all of the why behind God's commands. We don't understand why God would delay. Things are good, the why God would allow certain things in our lives. But. But we do have enough to know in that moment that here's what God has said he is to us in that covenant love that changes our relationship to him. And therefore it changes our relationship to every struggle we have. And then because of that, from that place, even we walk and respond in faith filled obedience. You know, Jesus said in, in the Book of Jon, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. And for the longest time I felt like that was almost a guilt trip, you know, like, well, if you really loved me, you keep my commandments, so you just must not love me enough. You kind of, kind of makes you feel, oh man, now I feel really awful. I didn't just disobey, just feeling horrible. And I think it's far more of a promise now. It's true that in Christ when we disobey God's commands, we're not just disobeying a rule where we're, disconnecting from fellowship with God. but I think it's a promise. If you love me, you will obey my commands. Jesus is giving us the key to living an obedient, blessed goodness of God, receiving life. And it is to love him. So something that we see when we look back in our lives, like you just described in your own history, to say, I didn't understand how that was good and yet God was working things together for my good. And what was the basis of that? Was it dependent on your performance and your obedience? Obedience? Well, no, that would get the formula all flipped around, wouldn't it? No, it was based on the covenant relationship that he established with you. The new or the covenant love, the new relationship that you had with Him. And because of that, you were able to walk in faith. Even when, and especially when things didn't make sense, things didn't seem like they were. You were living that redeemed, victorious life. It allows us to live in the tension of promises that we have received and promises that we have not yet actualized in our experience.
Deuteronomy describes people at a point of decision over many life circumstances
Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the things that I think is so relatable about what you write about in this study is this point of decision. Because you describe, you know, the people in Deuteronomy being at a point of decision. And that is something that's really relatable to today because so many of our life circumstances seem so out of our control. I cannot control war in the Middle East. I cannot control, you know, national. I do not have personal influence over the national election, over, you know, just even the things that are hap. Some of the things that are happening in my family over health. I mean there's so many things we don't have control over much. Like the Israelites didn't have a lot of control over a lot of things that were happening at the time that the book of Deuteronomy was, was written. But Katie you call us to a decision, you give us some action that we have and something that God calls us into. We have a decision to make. Can you talk a little bit more about that decision and how the decision that the people were making in the book of Deuteronomy is so remarkably relatable to the decision that we have to make today?
Katie J. McCoy: Oh, that point of decision, it comes from, the, the last few chapters of Deuteronomy itself, when Moses is standing before the people and saying, saying, choose life, choose life so that you can live. And, and he's putting before them all of these blessings and all of these curses and, and the only thing that is hanging in the balance, the only thing that is up in the air is whether the Israelites will respond with faith filled obedience or they'll just go their own way. One of the most sobering things to realize is that I can't worship God on my own terms terms. I can't worship the Lord my own way. I have to serve something and I'm going to serve something with my life. So this point of choosing, it's ultimately choosing who are you going to serve? And behind that sort of driving all of that, who are you going to believe? Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe what God's word says over and against your feelings, your experience, your culture, your fear? or does some other influence direct and guide your life? You know, we don't have statues that we are bowing down to in the form of, idols, in the form of, you know, stones and wood. But, but our idols are just as present. Anything that we are trusting in, anything that we are leaning on looking to give us security, safety, meaning, significance, happiness, joy, peace, you know, we struggle with them. That's why Jon Calvin called, the human heart an idol factory. We're just, we're constantly producing them. But here's the other amazing thing we see in the book of Deuteronomy far before Israel has a chance to even move into the promised land, way before they have a chance to obey or disobey, even before all of the kinks in Israel's later national history, way before even the exile. So we're talking hundreds and hundreds of years before Israel hits rock bottom. And what the Lord says to them is even in that place. He has already decided to redeem them. He has already decided to forgive them. The Lord has already chosen to restore them them when they call out to him from a pure heart, when they turn back to him. So really our choice, Jessica, that our moment of choosing, it is a response to God's choice of us. And, and when we study the book of Deuteronomy especially, we see the goodness of God on display through his law. We see his justice, his righteousness on display. It is attracting, it is drawing us to this God to want to know and serve this God. And really at the end of it,
Dr. Jessica Peck: I want to hear more about that. We are already at our second break, and I feel like we are on a roll. Don't go away. We'll be right back with more from Katie J. McCoy. And forever for Our Good.
American Family Association stands against enemies of God, the enemies of your family
Buddy Smith Jeff Chamblee: We live in a day when America's families are under attack like never before. Buddy Smith, Senior vice president of the American Family Association. The war against biblical principles rages on numerous fronts. The Internet, Hollywood, Washington, D.C. america's corporate boardrooms. And the list goes on. At American Family Association. We're committed to standing against the enemies of God, the enemies of your family. And we recognize it's an important task without God's favor and your partnership. Thank you for being faithful to pray for this ministry, to give financially and to respond to our calls for activism. What you do on the home front is crucial to what we do on the battlefront. We praise God for your faithfulness and may he give us many victories in the battles ahead as we work together to restore our nation. Biblical foundations
For the Good by Riley Clemmons: who can bend my burdens and make them beautiful? Who can bring the healing to the hurt I hold? Who else could part the waters when I needed a way? Though I'm walking through the valleys I've been believe when you say I believe when you say for the good, for the good you work all things together for the good, for the good. Your promise stands forever. You alone on the greatest hope. I trust you on the broken road you work the.
Dr. Jessica Peck: M. Welcome back, friends. That's for the Good by Riley Clemmons
Jessica: It's important for every family to be studying God's word
And that is exactly what we're talking about today. Forever for Our Good, A study of the book of Deuteronomy. It's by theologian Katie J. McCoy. We are having a great conversation today about how it's so important for every family to be studying God's word. You need to be plugged into a local church. You need to be sitting with some really good Bible teachers who will help you to learn. And this particular study does have video access included. But we need to be studying God's word and sharing those ancient truths with our families, that these are issues that we're facing today, that God is forever for our good. Even through the book of Deuteronomy, we have ancient truth, truths that can be so applicable. And Katie right before the break, you were just on a roll, and I loved it, talking about how we have these m. You know, idols, modern idols. Like you said, the heart is an idol factory and we can look. You know, recently I walked some ancient paths and went to some ancient ruins of temples that were extremely grand. But you look at it and you think, okay, how could people come and worship this? But we're doing the same thing today. How can the book of Deuteronomy help redirect our heart from that idol cult where we're just. So often I think about the. The song, you know, Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. How do we give our hearts to say take and seal it. What teaches us from the book of Deuteronomy to do that?
Katie J. McCoy: You know, Deuteronomy reminds us how, every day, the choice to worship God is because it. It acknowledges, look, there are other gods running around. There are other idols, idols that you could serve. But God calls his people to undivided devotion. And when you also see, Jessica, how extreme, that devotion, required his people to respond in, it is very sobering. So you, you see, commands like, you know, if you even so much as hear about idolatry happening in another town, here's what you're supposed to do. You've got to go investigate it. You've got to go seek it out. You need to physically go there, get rid of it completely. In fact, if there is a family member or even your own spouse who is committing idolatry, you must choose the Lord over your own family member, over your own spouse. And what it was reinforcing is that we can't give an inch. We can't let just a little bit. Bit of idolatry into our lives. You can't get comfortable with something when God says he wants absolute devotion, there, there's no room for it. And of course, that sets us up to just turn the page at the end of Deuteronomy. Read. We read Joshua and Judges. When did Israel. Were they faithful to that? Oh, no, no, no, no. They, they let, just a few of the pagan tribes survive. They.
Katie J. McCoy: They took some of. They took most of the promised land. But they left this pagan tribe there, to live among them. And, and with that, you see, over time it pulls them away. This is one of the perfect examples of how, you know, we, we don't know our own hearts like scripture knows our hearts. We need the wisdom of the Bible to say that no, there really is no room for something that is an idol pulling us away. From who? The Lord? From the Lord and from devoting ourselves to him entirely. And so we've all got them. I don't think there's shame in, you know, going, I struggle with idols in my life. Who doesn't? Of course you do. Because we are all constantly pulled by the world, the flesh and the devil. The only question is, can we recognize it? Can we, we get rid of it, reject it, and choose to serve the Lord only. So what Deuteronomy does, it assumes that we're going to encounter these things. It assumes that Israel is going to count encounter opportunities to compromise. And it tells them in advance what to do. And all of that again is in response to the covenant love, the new relationship. And now they are walking in faith filled obedience.
Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy during his earthly ministry
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, when you talk about that covenant love, one of the things that caught my attention about this was, you know, we talk about Deuteronomy and the, the things that happened and you've been talking about that and one of the things that stands out to me by the way is just that incremental compromise that, oh well, just, just a few things. It's not usually like, okay, they go from we'll worship the Lord to next day, let's build a temple to a false God. You know, it's that incremental allowing in of the culture. And we still see that today. And we see these events of Deute, Deuteronomy happened and you have said God is forever for our good. He was for our good in making those commandments. And then we have a long time that passed before Jesus's earthly ministry. But it intrigued me, Katie to see that you pointed out that Jesus actually quoted from the book of Deuteronomy. So when we say, oh that's Old Testament, oh, there's, there's a little bit to consider. There's a little nuance to consider there. What did you learn about why do you think Jesus would have chosen these passages to quote during his earthly ministry so far after the events of the book of Deuteronomy?
Katie J. McCoy: Yeah, this was so rich to discover. so perfect example. ah, if you remember the story of Jesus being tempted in the Wilderness. Now we're very familiar with that story because from, for, one of the many reasons it teaches us how to respond to temptation. It tells us, okay, we're especially vulnerable to temptation when we are, you know, alone and tired and hungry. And Jesus put, was, put in those very scenarios. And he conquered every single one of Satan's temptations. How did he do it? He responded to his deceptions and the opportunity, unity with the word of God. And we know that, and that is so true. But we have to ask, why is it that out of all the Bible verses that Jesus could have quoted, he quoted three from Deuteronomy? He could have quoted from the Psalms, he could have quoted, from one of the prophets. He, he could have quoted something in Genesis. I mean, he could have quoted, quoted anywhere in the Bible. He knew his Old Testament, but he quoted from Deuteronomy. Why is that? And when I step back and look at why those particular verses, first of all, the context of them is about how the Lord tested Israel in order to reveal what was in their hearts. Now we know that when God tests us, as when he tested Israel, it's not because he's seeking information. It's rather he is providing revelation. He is revealing to us who we are, what is really in our hearts. And that's what in Deuteronomy 6:8, Moses was describing. The Lord allowed Israel to go through. God was testing them. So here Jesus is being tested in the wilderness, and he quotes those particular verses. Verses. And here's what I believe that is signifying to us something that a Jewish reader would pick up immediately. Jesus was quoting the book of the Bible that from the beginning to end was all about the covenant. It was all about God's covenant to his people. So when Jesus was quoting those verses, he wasn't just overcoming Satan's temptations. He was. And he wasn't just overcoming lies with the word of God, which is the truth, although he was. It was something even deeper than that in the grand drama of our salvation. What Jesus was doing was not only fulfilling the covenant that God made with us, he was fulfilling the covenant that we, we were to make with God and we couldn't keep it. He was fulfilling both sides of the covenant. He is the true and better Israel, the fulfillment of everything that God created Israel to be the chosen one who brought God's message to the nations. And so when Jesus was quoting those verses, he was, was fulfilling everything Israel was supposed to have been when they were tested. So this God is not only A covenant keeping God. But he is the God who comes to earth and keeps our side of the covenant for us. What other God? What a God? who, who else but the Lord? Right? Isn't that amazing?
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is absolutely amazing. One of my favorite things right now Katie is seeing the ark of the Bible. You know, seeing all of the Old Testament come, you know, that connects to the NewSong Testament and the curse of sin and then the unwinding of the curse. And you've just described something to me that I hadn't thought about before in that moment. It's exactly like you just said. I'm very familiar with that story of Jesus being tempted. We know we respond with scriptures. But to look at that as a fulfillment, that is, that's something, a new way for it to look at that for me. And I think that that is, that is really exciting to see. Why do you think that's so important? Because even more now Katie I see like just influencers who are giving kind of bite sized scripture snacks, you know, and just oh, here's this story or here's this story. Why is it so important for us to not lose sight of the entire arc of scripture, of the, of the continuous story of the gospel of Jesus? Why do we need to look at it from Old Testament to NewSong Testament and resist that urgent. Just to take, you know, little bite sized pieces from here and there.
Katie J. McCoy: Right. So a couple of things. first when we, when we get into that, I like that phrase, scripture snacking. What we can end up doing, and this isn't wrong but it can, it can lead to a more self centered Christianity is we end up taking Bible verses like pills like to meet an immediate need instead of to be formed. and to really, really approach ah, our Bible study as how God's truth fits into my life instead of, and that's true, that's good and wholesome and right. But instead of how my life is fitting into the big story of who God is and what he is doing in the world. So when we, when we just sort of dip into it and you know, we need those Bible verses, right? We need, you know, Philippians, Philippians 4:19, we need, we need those encouragement verses. We need the Psalm 23. Of course we do. But, but when we, when we just kind of take things plucked here and there, we're not going to be formed in a deep way, one that affects our whole perspective, not just of our situation but of who we are, why we are on earth and who we are in God's.
Forever for Our Good offers an invitation to rediscover God's covenant faithfulness
Story the second is kind of related to that. I think you could sum it up as imagine going into a movie theater and, and you go just for the last 20 minutes. and, and you are, you're hanging with the plot. You, you're, you've got enough to know what's going on. But then towards right before the very end, everybody in the movie theater is gasping and they're thinking, wow, can you believe that? That's amazing. All these dots were being connected and hanging with the story in, in general, despite walking in late, you haven't caught the things that other people have caught. You've not hung with that, with the, the whole story the way that they have. And so often when we skip over, especially the first five books of the, the Bible, the Pentateuch, Genesis, through Deuteronomy, we jump into the New Testament. And the New Testament is drawing on things in those first five books that we don't understand. It's like we're plopping ourselves in the movie theater halfway through and expecting to make all the connections, connect all the dots. So we need to see, as it were, the first half of the movie. We need to know our, Pentateuch, we need to know our book of Deuteronomy. Because when Jesus said, I didn't come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill the law law. Well, that includes these laws. What is it that Jesus fulfilled in his earthly ministry? It's everything that you're going to discover in the book of Deuteronomy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think that's a great analogy, Katie and such a great reminder for us, because you're right. When we. I, had one guest who said before it was the approach of like, we were talking about from a healthcare perspective, but it was take two scriptures and call me in the morning and taking them really almost like pills, like, oh, let me pick out what's exactly for me in this moment and not really getting the whole picture and who God is. And that's so important to face the challenge that we're facing today. It's not just about, oh, let me cherry pick this one scripture that seems like it'll make me feel good in the moment. It's who is God in all of time and how can I trust him? M. And why can I trust him? And you have given us such great reminders of that because in a world that really, really just sees freedom from the absence of boundaries, you have offered us such a better vision through God's word that true freedom is found in walking with the God who made us and knows what is truly for our good. Katie I thank you so much for reminding us that the law is not opposed to God's love. It is one of the clearest expressions of it. And so whether you are a longtime Bible student or someone who is has always found the Old Testament difficult to understand, Forever for Our Good is offering you an invitation to rediscover the beauty of God's covenant faithfulness that Katie has shared with us today. And as Moses challenged Israel, each generation faces the choice of whom it will trust. Whom will you serve? Joshua asked that question. I'm asking that question today. Katie reminded us that when we choose God's ways, it will be forever for our good. I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you. I'll see you right here next time. Katie J. McCoy.
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: Hello and welcome to the doctor nursemama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
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As families wrestle with questions of morality and identity, biblical authority is crucial
We are gonna talk about something today that is probably was probably not on your list when you woke up this morning thinking, okay, I wanna learn some things about deuteronomy today that is on my bucket list on My to do list today, well, you may not have known it, but that is what the Lord has for us today. And I'm so excited to talk about this because there are, especially in this day and age when we have unprecedented access to information, there are increasing influencers who are competing for spe space to tell you how to interpret God's Word. And we need to be really careful and thoughtful and intentional and make sure that we are studying God's Word ourselves. We're not outsourcing the Holy Spirit. We are really seeking God's Word and seeking wisdom and seeking to grow. And God's Word is eternal. It Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And in a culture that is constantly shifting, God's Word is a foundation upon which we can build our family. And when we think about the Old Testament, there are a lot of Christians I'm seeing increasingly. So that's my sense and what I'm seeing that are approaching the Old Testament with some uncertainty, like thinking, okay, the stories are familiar, but the law feels really distant. It's confusing, it's burdensome. I think I'd just rather hang out in Psalms or John or something more comfortable. And in a culture that equates freedom with doing, hey, whatever we want, the idea that God's commands are actually expressions of his love can really seem counterintuitive. But throughout Scripture, God reveals that his boundaries are not designed to restrict human flourishing. In fact, the opposite, it's to protect it and to guide his people into abundant life. And as families are wrestling increasingly with questions of morality and identity and truth and biblical authority, there may be no more timely message than recovering a right understanding of God's character. And that's what brings us back to the book of Deuteronomy. This captures Israel standing on the edge of the Promised Land, facing a defining choice. Will they trust God's ways or will they seek security and meaning somewhere else? And according to theologian and Bible teacher Katie J. McCoy, that same question confronts every generation of believers today. And she has a new seven session Bible study Forever for Our Good. And this particular Bible study invites women to see God's law not as a list of outdated rules, but as an expression of his covenant love, an invitation into a wholehearted devotion. And today's conversation is invitation for everyone to experience the same. Now, Katie holds a PhD in Systematic Theology. She has researched the themes of justice for women in Old Testament law, the intersection of theology and culture. And she is a voice that is helping Christians think biblically about today's biggest issues. So today we're going to explore Katy's own story and calling and talk about the relevance of Deuteronomy. How does God's eternal truth shape the everyday lives of our families? Katie welcome. We're so glad to have you here.
Katie J. McCoy: Thank you so much, Dr. Jessica. thank you for having me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I am so glad to have you because I think these are questions that we're wrestling with. So for us just to be able to have an honest conversation and to be able to talk about these things that families are wondering about, I feel like it's going to be really helpful. And I know having sat behind this microphone now for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of shows that every author has a journey that shapes the message they bring into the world.
Dr. Jessica Peck: How.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Introduce yourself to our listeners and tell a little bit about the path that God brought you here to today to share about, share with us about the Book of Deuteronomy.
Katie J. McCoy: You know, I fell into studying this book, and, and I had never done an in depth study of the Book of Deuteronomy, until embarking on this seven week study forever for our good. What I had done was, and you mentioned it earlier in, in my, my bio is that my research focused on old laws about women and what they tell us about God ultimately, and then about who God's people are called to be in society. It is absolutely remarkable to study these Old Testament laws in their cultural context. Now that's a big, that's a big part of it though, because when we have our 21st century American Western lenses on, we read the Bible and we read it essentially through the wrong set of glasses. So we have to change our glasses prescription, so to speak, to understand everything that the biblical law is revealing. And all throughout Deuteronomy, something that you find is the Lord is saying, this is what a just society looks like. This is what we should do when something happens that never should have happened. And you know, sometimes we read the laws and they seem so obscure, and they're written, thousands of years ago to a culture that is in some ways diametrically opposite of our own culture. And it's really easy to look at it and say, what in the world does this have to do with me? And oftentimes we just kind of power through it. If you're doing that reading through the Bible every year planned, you know, around March, you just got to kind of grin and bear it and get through Leviticus, numbers and Deuteronomy. Right. and, and because of that, we'll just Say, oh, well, that's all Old Testament. I'm not, I'm not under that. Jesus has set us free from that. And that's true. We're no longer under the ceremonial laws or even the civil laws of, of punishments for things that happen in society. But the moral law of God is still in effect even more, even more. the New Testament says we fulfill the law of God by the Spirit. And so it's kind of ironic, isn't it, that we wouldn't at least know what it is that we, that we would pass over it and think, oh, it's just Old Testament. I don't need to, I don't actually need to know what this law is saying. And yet this is what Romans 8 describes. We are fulfilling by the Spirit. And so that is what all throughout this book we're doing. and I absolutely loved studying. I'll tell, I'll tell you, one big takeaway right away is we actually, if you go through the Bible study, you don't actually start going through the commands until a lot later in the study than you might think. Because like all the rest of scripture, Moses first deals with people's hearts. For the first several chapters, he's talking about the heart posture that they have towards the Lord. Chapter, several chapters worth. Before ever talking about, okay, now here's what you're supposed to do. and so one of the things I love about this book is how cohesive it is with the rest of the Bible. It's not. It's not a different gospel, it's not a different God. It's just a different point in God's history of redemption.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm so encouraged by what you're saying because you're reminding me of the scripture. You know, all scripture is useful as God breathed and useful for, reproof, correction, training, depending on which, whatever, pick your version of what you have, but for, for training in righteousness. And all Scripture is useful. And you also reminded me of something my pastor often says that we're trying to read an Eastern book with Western eyes. And so sometimes that impacts the filter with which we look at it. But all scripture is pointing us back to who God is, the character and nature of God. And once we learn more, I found that as I learned more about God, I learn more about who he created me to be. And Katie somebody he created you to be, somebody who's really smart. I'm just going to put it out there and say, you have a PhD in Systematic Theology. Now, I know there's Lots of people, including me, saying, wait, what is that? And you've spent years studying scripture and culture, but one of the encouraging messages that you bring to us today is you want to make theology accessible for everyone, that you don't have to have a PhD in Systematic Theology to read the book of Deuteronomy. Talk to us a little bit about the tension that's in there, because I know people often say the same thing to me, like, you're a pediatric nurse practitioner, you're a professor. You know, how. How do you do this? Well, there's still a big learning curve, and we're here to help share some of those tools, but also make it like this is, this is God's design for everybody. How can you encourage us in that way?
Katie J. McCoy: I love that question.
If you are reading your Bible and making conclusions, you are doing theology.
So, first of all, a couple of preliminary thoughts. First of all, if you are reading your Bible and making conclusions, you are doing theology. You are a theologian, whether or not you realize it, because every time you encounter scripture, you encounter the truth of God and you recognize something, something about who God is, how he created us to live, who we are, what he says about the world, what he says about our lives and our purpose. You are doing theology. We are all living according to theology, and we are all theologians. Now, thankfully, throughout history, God gives, different people at different times to, have the opportunity to study in depth and to be able to serve the churches with that, that sphere of study, that background, if you will. So, for instance, you, in the medical profession, you would probably agree, like most people, if they decided to sit down and learn everything, they could do it. They could learn all of the facts. They could learn how to think like someone who is, a nurse. Most people can also sit down and learn how to think like a theologian. And this is, this is where we have a breadth, just a gluttony of theological resources between podcasts and websites and sermon series and books like this. So I just want to encourage everybody to know you are a theologian. You are doing theology all the time. The only question is how. And so it takes things like digging into scripture, learning how to study that refines, builds that muscle, so to speak. The other thing to encourage your listeners with is this theological knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity. Theological knowledge does not equal spiritual maturity. I, can tell you that I could read all the books, and I've read different whole systematic theologies on everything that the Bible says about different topics. But my spiritual maturity is dependent on the really basic things, like how I respond to God in love and obedience. And so I hope that would encourage your listeners. I, I, like so many people, found something that I loved and kept, going down that, that road. Had the opportunity to, But, but really when it comes down to it, though, Jessica, what the things that, that really shaped me through studying Deuteronomy. Yeah, some things were these really intricate. The, a lot of it. It was just the basics.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That, again, is really encouraging because I think we do live in an age of information overload. And I'm increasingly seeing that you, you mentioned that, Katie in the healthcare profession, I mean, usually now when people have come in, they have not looked in the encyclopedia like that. That used to be the only resource.
Katie J. McCoy: Right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, they, they have already searched, they have asked people, they have looked at AI, they have looked at Internet search engines to figure out, you know, okay, what is, what do I kind of want to come into. Then I partner with them. Okay, all right. Yeah, I've been here a long time. I know which voices are trusted and aren't. And I see a lot of parallels there. Katie for our spiritual growth, because, yes, we should be. It should be both. And like, we should never outsource the reading of our Bible. We need to be reading our Bible in our homes. You need to be asking the Holy Spirit to help you as you read, to give you wisdom, to give you discernment, to give you insight. And you need to be walking in a Bible based, theologically sound church under the teaching of a pastor who's going to help you and do that. Do you, do you agree with that? Do you see that parallel? It's amazing to me, I think, how I see the parallel.
Katie J. McCoy: Yes, a hundred percent. And, and with that too, recognizing that just as there, we have medical professionals who devote their lives to studying so that they can be a resource for other people. it's the same way for some people, they're called to go to seminary, they're going to go get a doctorate and something. The whole point of it is not to stand over people and talk down. It is to be a resource. It is to be l resource for other people in their growth, in their spiritual health. But that doesn't mean you just check your brain at the door and sort of take what somebody else is giving you. We are to be inquisitive. We are to take responsibility for our spiritual and our physical health along with the people that God's given us to help. To help, do that. Well, so I love that correlation. I think it's a really good analogy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, thanks for that.
Everybody should be in some form of Bible study. What Bible study are you in?
Katie and a good resource that you've provided is this Bible study Forever for Our Good. It's by Katie J. McCoy. It's a study of the Book of Deuteronomy and I encourage you to think about it and think about whatever you're studying. What Bible study are you in? Everybody needs to be in some form of Bible study. It's not just academic, it's profoundly personal. Because understanding who God is changes how we understand ourselves, how we see and interpret our choices in the world around us, and the goodness of God. And God's goodness is for us. When we come back, we'll have more conversation about how do we see God's law through the lens of grace. And Katie will share with us more lessons that she has learned from the book of Deuteronomy and how things are for our good. God is for our good. Even a world that seems wildly not good at times. We'll talk about that when we come back.
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Oh But God by Davy Flowers: And I traded my chains for your freedom Cause you were the one that I needed oh but God resurrected my heart from the room ruins and my rescue came through like the morning and now this is my true testimony oh but God oh but God Rich and mercy how you love me too much to let me stay long My salvation heaven.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome m back friends. That is oh but God by Davy Flowers But God are my two favorite words together in the history of ever and I'm so grateful for the grace that God has given me in my life. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be here today with Katie J. McCoy, a theologian who was talking with us about her new Bible study called Forever for Our Good, a study of the book of Deuteronomy. And again, this is not usually a book I think that people gravitate to and people usually will gravitate more toward a topical study. But all ah, scripture is beneficial for us and Katie is here to talk about that.
The title of this study is Forever for Our Good. How did you settle on that title?
And Katie I want to go to the title of this study Forever for Our Good. And I think increasingly we see a culture that is has a counter narrative to that saying that how can that be this world is so bad so far gone, so messed up. How can a, good God be present in a world that seems anything but? How did you settle on that title for, for the study? And how have you seen the goodness of God in your own life?
Katie J. McCoy: Such a great question. So that phrase forever for our good, it is, an adaptation of a phrase that appears in Deuteronomy, and it's describing the law that God has given his people for their good always. So from that phrase, for your good always, I thought forever for our good. That's what God's laws are. And when we see, when we encounter the moral and ethical principles in God's law, we're not only seeing what is righteous and just and good, because it is the law of God, who is himself righteous, just and good, but we're seeing how we were made to live. You know, one of the most humbling realizations that I know I came to is that in my 30, 35, 40, 40 plus years on Earth, how can I possibly know everything that is right for me to do in life? How can I possibly think that with a limited perspective I can know what is going to be the most fulfilling life? Because if I'm following my heart as my culture tells me to, well, my heart changes, my heart is wrong. My heart gets things very off, from what is good for me. And so often I'm, sure other people who are listening can relate to this. We think that we are chasing something that is good. And God will put a roadblock. He will allow it not to work out. The opportunity doesn't come through, the relationship falls apart. Because what God knows is that he is, is always working for our good and that his ways are how we are made to live. So his commands, if they are truly forever for our good, it means that this is how we are supposed to live. This is how we're supposed to walk in this world and to fulfill our purpose as those who are God's ambassadors. You know, we talked earlier about kind of the correlation between the Old and NewSong Testament of the message of it. And we see that in the book of Deuteronomy. We see in Deuteronomy that Moses is reminding the people of Israel that their blessings are not for themselves. They were set apart by God at that point in God's redemption history, to be his messengers, his ambassadors, really, his missionaries. And the same is true with us. We've been given the goodness of God, we've been given the blessing of God. We've been given the Testimony of Romans 8, 28 that he works all things together for our good when we love him and are called according to his purpose. Those are blessings of the goodness of God that we have received by faith those promises. But they are not for ourselves alone. They are for us to be God's messengers, his ambassadors, his missionaries. And so my hope is that by seeing this phrase forever for our good, people would look at it and say, that's not quite as scary or stodgy or, boring as I would have expected a study on the Deuteronomy. On the book of Deuteronomy to sound like. And the truth is, it's not. If you have never studied this book, I can almost guarantee you there are aspects about who God is that are waiting for you to. To discover through his law. even if you've been walking with the Lord for many years, I. I think that you will fall. Fall deeper in love with this God who is the God of the law of the Bible, by the time you are finished reading and studying the law of Deuteronomy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is a pretty bold claim, Katie It really is.
Katie J. McCoy: But I stand by it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I know you do. Because God's word is living and powerful and pierces through this, you know, to joint and marrow. I. I keep thinking about that, and it's so true when I read it. And you learn more about God and especially learning some of the cultural applications that maybe you wouldn't see before. It is a really rich experience.
Katie: Relationship is the foundation of everything else in Deuteronomy
And, you know, Katie as you're talking and even thinking about the title of this book, Forever for Our Good, I think about the song the Goodness of God, which is pretty popular right now, playing on the radio, and. And not too long ago, you know, we were singing in a church service that I was at, and I remember just kind of singing those lyrics, like, without even thinking about it, because sometimes we do that with worship songs and getting to the part. All my life you have been faithful. All my life you've been so, so good. And I remember stopping in that moment and thinking, wait, do I really believe that? Like, I just sang it, but do I really believe that? And I thought about, you know, some of the points in my life that seemed so not good. And now that I've lived long enough, you know, I'm through that, 30s, 40s, you know, that you mentioned earlier, I can see some of the things that, you know, I look back, I think in particular, one relationship restoration that I wanted, thinking, how can God not be for relationship restor. But then recognizing that, you know, that some. The distance that was There was necessary for breaking some generational cycles that were there. What do you see going back? I mean, we're talking about this, but you keep pulling it back to Deuteronomy. How do you see that? Like, I'm standing here, I'm looking for the goodness of God in my life, even in times that aren't good. How do you specifically relate that back? How do you see that come through in learning about God's character and really that this is overflowing? the law is an overflow of his covenant love for us. How does that truth go from Deuteronomy to today?
Katie J. McCoy: Yes. So the, the real linchpin to all of that, to that question is relationship. So what we see in the book of Deuteronomy is first God establishes a covenant before anything else, before he tells them what to do, before he tells them how to live. He tells them who he is to them and who they are to Him. So the covenant is the foundation of everything else that we see in the book of Deuteronomy. And because of that covenant, because of the promises of God's covenant, we have a changed relationship with the Lord. Now, again, before we talk about fulfilling the commands of God for, walking in obedience, this is where we live. If we are in Christ, we have received a covenant that the Lord Jesus purchased for us by his blood. And we are, as a result of that covenant, walking in a new relationship. And what that means is that because we have a new relationship with the Lord, we now have a new relationship with everything else. With our deepest pain, with the heartbreak, with the unexpected sorrows, with the setbacks, with the plans that did not go how we thought they would or wanted them to. What it means is that because we are in this new established relationship with the Lord now, all of the promises of God have been transferred to us. All of the promises of God that He has made for our good are credited to our account, Ephesians describes, sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our down payment. Not only that we have those promises, but we have the promises that we have yet to see realized in, in our real lives. So on that basis, the covenant and the relationship, because of those two things, we respond in faithful obedience. We respond in obedience from a heart of love. And that means sometimes, Jessica, we don't understand. We don't understand all of the why behind God's commands. We don't understand why God would delay. Things are good, the why God would allow certain things in our lives. But. But we do have enough to know in that moment that here's what God has said he is to us in that covenant love that changes our relationship to him. And therefore it changes our relationship to every struggle we have. And then because of that, from that place, even we walk and respond in faith filled obedience. You know, Jesus said in, in the Book of Jon, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. And for the longest time I felt like that was almost a guilt trip, you know, like, well, if you really loved me, you keep my commandments, so you just must not love me enough. You kind of, kind of makes you feel, oh man, now I feel really awful. I didn't just disobey, just feeling horrible. And I think it's far more of a promise now. It's true that in Christ when we disobey God's commands, we're not just disobeying a rule where we're, disconnecting from fellowship with God. but I think it's a promise. If you love me, you will obey my commands. Jesus is giving us the key to living an obedient, blessed goodness of God, receiving life. And it is to love him. So something that we see when we look back in our lives, like you just described in your own history, to say, I didn't understand how that was good and yet God was working things together for my good. And what was the basis of that? Was it dependent on your performance and your obedience? Obedience? Well, no, that would get the formula all flipped around, wouldn't it? No, it was based on the covenant relationship that he established with you. The new or the covenant love, the new relationship that you had with Him. And because of that, you were able to walk in faith. Even when, and especially when things didn't make sense, things didn't seem like they were. You were living that redeemed, victorious life. It allows us to live in the tension of promises that we have received and promises that we have not yet actualized in our experience.
Deuteronomy describes people at a point of decision over many life circumstances
Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the things that I think is so relatable about what you write about in this study is this point of decision. Because you describe, you know, the people in Deuteronomy being at a point of decision. And that is something that's really relatable to today because so many of our life circumstances seem so out of our control. I cannot control war in the Middle East. I cannot control, you know, national. I do not have personal influence over the national election, over, you know, just even the things that are hap. Some of the things that are happening in my family over health. I mean there's so many things we don't have control over much. Like the Israelites didn't have a lot of control over a lot of things that were happening at the time that the book of Deuteronomy was, was written. But Katie you call us to a decision, you give us some action that we have and something that God calls us into. We have a decision to make. Can you talk a little bit more about that decision and how the decision that the people were making in the book of Deuteronomy is so remarkably relatable to the decision that we have to make today?
Katie J. McCoy: Oh, that point of decision, it comes from, the, the last few chapters of Deuteronomy itself, when Moses is standing before the people and saying, saying, choose life, choose life so that you can live. And, and he's putting before them all of these blessings and all of these curses and, and the only thing that is hanging in the balance, the only thing that is up in the air is whether the Israelites will respond with faith filled obedience or they'll just go their own way. One of the most sobering things to realize is that I can't worship God on my own terms terms. I can't worship the Lord my own way. I have to serve something and I'm going to serve something with my life. So this point of choosing, it's ultimately choosing who are you going to serve? And behind that sort of driving all of that, who are you going to believe? Who are you going to believe? Are you going to believe what God's word says over and against your feelings, your experience, your culture, your fear? or does some other influence direct and guide your life? You know, we don't have statues that we are bowing down to in the form of, idols, in the form of, you know, stones and wood. But, but our idols are just as present. Anything that we are trusting in, anything that we are leaning on looking to give us security, safety, meaning, significance, happiness, joy, peace, you know, we struggle with them. That's why Jon Calvin called, the human heart an idol factory. We're just, we're constantly producing them. But here's the other amazing thing we see in the book of Deuteronomy far before Israel has a chance to even move into the promised land, way before they have a chance to obey or disobey, even before all of the kinks in Israel's later national history, way before even the exile. So we're talking hundreds and hundreds of years before Israel hits rock bottom. And what the Lord says to them is even in that place. He has already decided to redeem them. He has already decided to forgive them. The Lord has already chosen to restore them them when they call out to him from a pure heart, when they turn back to him. So really our choice, Jessica, that our moment of choosing, it is a response to God's choice of us. And, and when we study the book of Deuteronomy especially, we see the goodness of God on display through his law. We see his justice, his righteousness on display. It is attracting, it is drawing us to this God to want to know and serve this God. And really at the end of it,
Dr. Jessica Peck: I want to hear more about that. We are already at our second break, and I feel like we are on a roll. Don't go away. We'll be right back with more from Katie J. McCoy. And forever for Our Good.
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Buddy Smith Jeff Chamblee: We live in a day when America's families are under attack like never before. Buddy Smith, Senior vice president of the American Family Association. The war against biblical principles rages on numerous fronts. The Internet, Hollywood, Washington, D.C. america's corporate boardrooms. And the list goes on. At American Family Association. We're committed to standing against the enemies of God, the enemies of your family. And we recognize it's an important task without God's favor and your partnership. Thank you for being faithful to pray for this ministry, to give financially and to respond to our calls for activism. What you do on the home front is crucial to what we do on the battlefront. We praise God for your faithfulness and may he give us many victories in the battles ahead as we work together to restore our nation. Biblical foundations
For the Good by Riley Clemmons: who can bend my burdens and make them beautiful? Who can bring the healing to the hurt I hold? Who else could part the waters when I needed a way? Though I'm walking through the valleys I've been believe when you say I believe when you say for the good, for the good you work all things together for the good, for the good. Your promise stands forever. You alone on the greatest hope. I trust you on the broken road you work the.
Dr. Jessica Peck: M. Welcome back, friends. That's for the Good by Riley Clemmons
Jessica: It's important for every family to be studying God's word
And that is exactly what we're talking about today. Forever for Our Good, A study of the book of Deuteronomy. It's by theologian Katie J. McCoy. We are having a great conversation today about how it's so important for every family to be studying God's word. You need to be plugged into a local church. You need to be sitting with some really good Bible teachers who will help you to learn. And this particular study does have video access included. But we need to be studying God's word and sharing those ancient truths with our families, that these are issues that we're facing today, that God is forever for our good. Even through the book of Deuteronomy, we have ancient truth, truths that can be so applicable. And Katie right before the break, you were just on a roll, and I loved it, talking about how we have these m. You know, idols, modern idols. Like you said, the heart is an idol factory and we can look. You know, recently I walked some ancient paths and went to some ancient ruins of temples that were extremely grand. But you look at it and you think, okay, how could people come and worship this? But we're doing the same thing today. How can the book of Deuteronomy help redirect our heart from that idol cult where we're just. So often I think about the. The song, you know, Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. How do we give our hearts to say take and seal it. What teaches us from the book of Deuteronomy to do that?
Katie J. McCoy: You know, Deuteronomy reminds us how, every day, the choice to worship God is because it. It acknowledges, look, there are other gods running around. There are other idols, idols that you could serve. But God calls his people to undivided devotion. And when you also see, Jessica, how extreme, that devotion, required his people to respond in, it is very sobering. So you, you see, commands like, you know, if you even so much as hear about idolatry happening in another town, here's what you're supposed to do. You've got to go investigate it. You've got to go seek it out. You need to physically go there, get rid of it completely. In fact, if there is a family member or even your own spouse who is committing idolatry, you must choose the Lord over your own family member, over your own spouse. And what it was reinforcing is that we can't give an inch. We can't let just a little bit. Bit of idolatry into our lives. You can't get comfortable with something when God says he wants absolute devotion, there, there's no room for it. And of course, that sets us up to just turn the page at the end of Deuteronomy. Read. We read Joshua and Judges. When did Israel. Were they faithful to that? Oh, no, no, no, no. They, they let, just a few of the pagan tribes survive. They.
Katie J. McCoy: They took some of. They took most of the promised land. But they left this pagan tribe there, to live among them. And, and with that, you see, over time it pulls them away. This is one of the perfect examples of how, you know, we, we don't know our own hearts like scripture knows our hearts. We need the wisdom of the Bible to say that no, there really is no room for something that is an idol pulling us away. From who? The Lord? From the Lord and from devoting ourselves to him entirely. And so we've all got them. I don't think there's shame in, you know, going, I struggle with idols in my life. Who doesn't? Of course you do. Because we are all constantly pulled by the world, the flesh and the devil. The only question is, can we recognize it? Can we, we get rid of it, reject it, and choose to serve the Lord only. So what Deuteronomy does, it assumes that we're going to encounter these things. It assumes that Israel is going to count encounter opportunities to compromise. And it tells them in advance what to do. And all of that again is in response to the covenant love, the new relationship. And now they are walking in faith filled obedience.
Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy during his earthly ministry
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, when you talk about that covenant love, one of the things that caught my attention about this was, you know, we talk about Deuteronomy and the, the things that happened and you've been talking about that and one of the things that stands out to me by the way is just that incremental compromise that, oh well, just, just a few things. It's not usually like, okay, they go from we'll worship the Lord to next day, let's build a temple to a false God. You know, it's that incremental allowing in of the culture. And we still see that today. And we see these events of Deute, Deuteronomy happened and you have said God is forever for our good. He was for our good in making those commandments. And then we have a long time that passed before Jesus's earthly ministry. But it intrigued me, Katie to see that you pointed out that Jesus actually quoted from the book of Deuteronomy. So when we say, oh that's Old Testament, oh, there's, there's a little bit to consider. There's a little nuance to consider there. What did you learn about why do you think Jesus would have chosen these passages to quote during his earthly ministry so far after the events of the book of Deuteronomy?
Katie J. McCoy: Yeah, this was so rich to discover. so perfect example. ah, if you remember the story of Jesus being tempted in the Wilderness. Now we're very familiar with that story because from, for, one of the many reasons it teaches us how to respond to temptation. It tells us, okay, we're especially vulnerable to temptation when we are, you know, alone and tired and hungry. And Jesus put, was, put in those very scenarios. And he conquered every single one of Satan's temptations. How did he do it? He responded to his deceptions and the opportunity, unity with the word of God. And we know that, and that is so true. But we have to ask, why is it that out of all the Bible verses that Jesus could have quoted, he quoted three from Deuteronomy? He could have quoted from the Psalms, he could have quoted, from one of the prophets. He, he could have quoted something in Genesis. I mean, he could have quoted, quoted anywhere in the Bible. He knew his Old Testament, but he quoted from Deuteronomy. Why is that? And when I step back and look at why those particular verses, first of all, the context of them is about how the Lord tested Israel in order to reveal what was in their hearts. Now we know that when God tests us, as when he tested Israel, it's not because he's seeking information. It's rather he is providing revelation. He is revealing to us who we are, what is really in our hearts. And that's what in Deuteronomy 6:8, Moses was describing. The Lord allowed Israel to go through. God was testing them. So here Jesus is being tested in the wilderness, and he quotes those particular verses. Verses. And here's what I believe that is signifying to us something that a Jewish reader would pick up immediately. Jesus was quoting the book of the Bible that from the beginning to end was all about the covenant. It was all about God's covenant to his people. So when Jesus was quoting those verses, he wasn't just overcoming Satan's temptations. He was. And he wasn't just overcoming lies with the word of God, which is the truth, although he was. It was something even deeper than that in the grand drama of our salvation. What Jesus was doing was not only fulfilling the covenant that God made with us, he was fulfilling the covenant that we, we were to make with God and we couldn't keep it. He was fulfilling both sides of the covenant. He is the true and better Israel, the fulfillment of everything that God created Israel to be the chosen one who brought God's message to the nations. And so when Jesus was quoting those verses, he was, was fulfilling everything Israel was supposed to have been when they were tested. So this God is not only A covenant keeping God. But he is the God who comes to earth and keeps our side of the covenant for us. What other God? What a God? who, who else but the Lord? Right? Isn't that amazing?
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is absolutely amazing. One of my favorite things right now Katie is seeing the ark of the Bible. You know, seeing all of the Old Testament come, you know, that connects to the NewSong Testament and the curse of sin and then the unwinding of the curse. And you've just described something to me that I hadn't thought about before in that moment. It's exactly like you just said. I'm very familiar with that story of Jesus being tempted. We know we respond with scriptures. But to look at that as a fulfillment, that is, that's something, a new way for it to look at that for me. And I think that that is, that is really exciting to see. Why do you think that's so important? Because even more now Katie I see like just influencers who are giving kind of bite sized scripture snacks, you know, and just oh, here's this story or here's this story. Why is it so important for us to not lose sight of the entire arc of scripture, of the, of the continuous story of the gospel of Jesus? Why do we need to look at it from Old Testament to NewSong Testament and resist that urgent. Just to take, you know, little bite sized pieces from here and there.
Katie J. McCoy: Right. So a couple of things. first when we, when we get into that, I like that phrase, scripture snacking. What we can end up doing, and this isn't wrong but it can, it can lead to a more self centered Christianity is we end up taking Bible verses like pills like to meet an immediate need instead of to be formed. and to really, really approach ah, our Bible study as how God's truth fits into my life instead of, and that's true, that's good and wholesome and right. But instead of how my life is fitting into the big story of who God is and what he is doing in the world. So when we, when we just sort of dip into it and you know, we need those Bible verses, right? We need, you know, Philippians, Philippians 4:19, we need, we need those encouragement verses. We need the Psalm 23. Of course we do. But, but when we, when we just kind of take things plucked here and there, we're not going to be formed in a deep way, one that affects our whole perspective, not just of our situation but of who we are, why we are on earth and who we are in God's.
Forever for Our Good offers an invitation to rediscover God's covenant faithfulness
Story the second is kind of related to that. I think you could sum it up as imagine going into a movie theater and, and you go just for the last 20 minutes. and, and you are, you're hanging with the plot. You, you're, you've got enough to know what's going on. But then towards right before the very end, everybody in the movie theater is gasping and they're thinking, wow, can you believe that? That's amazing. All these dots were being connected and hanging with the story in, in general, despite walking in late, you haven't caught the things that other people have caught. You've not hung with that, with the, the whole story the way that they have. And so often when we skip over, especially the first five books of the, the Bible, the Pentateuch, Genesis, through Deuteronomy, we jump into the New Testament. And the New Testament is drawing on things in those first five books that we don't understand. It's like we're plopping ourselves in the movie theater halfway through and expecting to make all the connections, connect all the dots. So we need to see, as it were, the first half of the movie. We need to know our, Pentateuch, we need to know our book of Deuteronomy. Because when Jesus said, I didn't come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill the law law. Well, that includes these laws. What is it that Jesus fulfilled in his earthly ministry? It's everything that you're going to discover in the book of Deuteronomy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think that's a great analogy, Katie and such a great reminder for us, because you're right. When we. I, had one guest who said before it was the approach of like, we were talking about from a healthcare perspective, but it was take two scriptures and call me in the morning and taking them really almost like pills, like, oh, let me pick out what's exactly for me in this moment and not really getting the whole picture and who God is. And that's so important to face the challenge that we're facing today. It's not just about, oh, let me cherry pick this one scripture that seems like it'll make me feel good in the moment. It's who is God in all of time and how can I trust him? M. And why can I trust him? And you have given us such great reminders of that because in a world that really, really just sees freedom from the absence of boundaries, you have offered us such a better vision through God's word that true freedom is found in walking with the God who made us and knows what is truly for our good. Katie I thank you so much for reminding us that the law is not opposed to God's love. It is one of the clearest expressions of it. And so whether you are a longtime Bible student or someone who is has always found the Old Testament difficult to understand, Forever for Our Good is offering you an invitation to rediscover the beauty of God's covenant faithfulness that Katie has shared with us today. And as Moses challenged Israel, each generation faces the choice of whom it will trust. Whom will you serve? Joshua asked that question. I'm asking that question today. Katie reminded us that when we choose God's ways, it will be forever for our good. I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you. I'll see you right here next time. Katie J. McCoy.
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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Author Katie J. McCoy talks with Jessica about how the Old Testament Law is relevant to believers today.
https://www.lifeway.com/en/product-family/forever-for-our-good-bible-study
https://giving.preborn.com/preborn/checkout/afa?sc=43490GF2022&campaign=404750
Chapters:
(00:00) American Family Radio thanks Preborn for helping save over 50,000 unborn babies
(02:19) As families wrestle with questions of morality and identity, biblical authority is crucial
(11:09) If you are reading your Bible and making conclusions, you are doing theology.
(15:52) Everybody should be in some form of Bible study. What Bible study are you in?
(16:50) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(18:55) The title of this study is Forever for Our Good. How did you settle on that title?
(23:31) Katie: Relationship is the foundation of everything else in Deuteronomy
(29:48) Deuteronomy describes people at a point of decision over many life circumstances
(34:21) American Family Association stands against enemies of God, the enemies of your family
(36:19) Jessica: It's important for every family to be studying God's word
(40:49) Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy during his earthly ministry
(48:07) Forever for Our Good offers an invitation to rediscover God's covenant faithfulness
(51:29) Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
Author Katie J. McCoy talks with Jessica about how the Old Testament Law is relevant to believers today.
https://www.lifeway.com/en/product-family/forever-for-our-good-bible-study
https://giving.preborn.com/preborn/checkout/afa?sc=43490GF2022&campaign=404750
Chapters:
(00:00) American Family Radio thanks Preborn for helping save over 50,000 unborn babies
(02:19) As families wrestle with questions of morality and identity, biblical authority is crucial
(11:09) If you are reading your Bible and making conclusions, you are doing theology.
(15:52) Everybody should be in some form of Bible study. What Bible study are you in?
(16:50) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(18:55) The title of this study is Forever for Our Good. How did you settle on that title?
(23:31) Katie: Relationship is the foundation of everything else in Deuteronomy
(29:48) Deuteronomy describes people at a point of decision over many life circumstances
(34:21) American Family Association stands against enemies of God, the enemies of your family
(36:19) Jessica: It's important for every family to be studying God's word
(40:49) Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy during his earthly ministry
(48:07) Forever for Our Good offers an invitation to rediscover God's covenant faithfulness
(51:29) Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
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