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Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends. Welcome, welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you, talking about things that give us hope in the world for healthy families. And we've got a show today that is going to be encouraging. Despite what you may see on doom scrolling. The truth is we live in a culture that is increasingly skeptical of institutions. Open your social media, start a conversation with your neighbor and just say words like big tech or big pharma or even higher education which is experiencing its own sort of reckoning. And we See that, that just increasing skepticism of institutions and the church is not immune to that. And for years we've heard younger generations walking away from their faith. We saw really with the millennial generation, a really big upswell and the movement called deconstruction of their faith. And we've watched headlines about declining church attendance and religious disaffiliation and young people walking away from organized religion. And those trends are very real and they deserve our attention. But the good news I'm bringing you today is new research from Lifeway Research. And it gives us a more nuanced and, and frankly a more hopeful picture. Because when we look specifically at Gen Z adults who are already churchgoers, we see that they are showing up, they are attending worship services, they're participating in small groups, they're serving, they're reading books about spiritual growth, they're participating in Bible studies and retreats and conferences. They're looking for spiritual content online. And in fact, Lifeway research found that Gen Z church goers attend worship services more frequently, in fact, than older generations. And they participate in small groups more often. But here's where the research gives us a challenge. Because participation does not automatically equal spiritual transformation or discipleship. And we're seeing this gap in discipleship. And the research found the Gen Z churchgoers can be highly involved in church while lagging somewhat behind other generations in their personal application of biblical truth to everyday life life. And the challenge isn't simply just getting them to come to the church. The challenge is helping them move from, from church participation from being there to growing in spiritual maturity. And that raises a question I think that we need to be talking about. How do we move from evangelism to discipleship? How do we really focus on that? Because we absolutely need evangelism. People need to hear the gospel. People need to encounter Jesus and I pray that they do. But Jesus didn't give the church a great commission to simply make converts. He told us to make disciples. People who learn to follow him, obey him and increasingly reflect him. And that's what we're going to Talk about with to Today.
Scott McConnell has led Lifeway Research's national polling of Americans and Protestant pastors
My guest today, Scott McConnell, the executive director of Lifeway Research. It's an evangelical research organization based in Brentwood, Tennessee. And it specializes in understanding faith and culture and the issues affecting churches. He spent more than 25 years research the church and culture with Lifeway Christian Resources. And for the last 19 years, so two decades, a lot has changed in that time. I'm sure he'll tell us about that. He has led Lifeway Research's national polling of Americans and Protestant pastors. Now, his work isn't simply about collecting statistics. It's about helping church leaders understand what that data means and what we should do about it. So we're going to talk about some of those research trends, and it's easy to get caught up in kind of the doom and gloom. And you know, for me, working in a science profession, as a professor, as a pediatric nurse, nurse practitioner, I'm like, just the facts, please. Can we start with some facts? And, and then we can kind of see what the picture is. And we're going to get those facts today from Scott. Scott, thank you so much for joining us. We're so grateful to have your time today.
Scott McConnell: Thank you, Jessica. Glad to be with you.
Scott's personal testimony of faith is encouraging for Christian families listening
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Scott, I think it's really encouraging always to hear your personal testimony of faith and just how you met the Lord and how he led you to this, to this platform of research and ministry, which is really not one that we talk about a lot. We talk to a lot of ministers and a lot of speakers, maybe authors. But the work that you do is really important and I'd love to hear how it started.
Scott McConnell: yes, I grew up in a Christian home, and so I was hearing the truths about Jesus from a very early age. And actually the. It. God allowed it to make sense. Ah. even before I was in school, I, was laying in bed one night and I realized my parents and my sister were going to heaven and I was not. And I knew enough to know what to do about it. And so I prayed right then, asking Jesus into my heart to be my Lord and my Savior and to forgive me. there were a lot of doubts after that. And so it was, you know, when I started, at the encouragement of a teacher at age 10, started reading the Bible regularly, that was when really my faith started to take off. But, it was, it was really those early seeds planted, by my family and our local church that, that really sent me toward Christ and, appreciate his. His redemption of me. And you know, when you start out following Christ that early, you know, as you just talked about deconstruction and a lot of those questions that come up as a teenager and as a young adult, you know, I think for me, it's a story of, as those questions arose in my life, I found that God was always faithful. And, and so, you know, that's the beauty of my testimony is not so much how early I came to faith because I had very little to do with that. but really just God's faithfulness that the more I explored the more I kicked the tires on this faith. He's the real deal.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's so encouraging for Christian families listening because I know, you know I meet a lot of teenagers, we're going to talk about Gen Z today who think like well I don't have a test, you know, I didn't go through something really horrible or you know, I didn't have a trial or I didn't run away from the Lord. But that testimony of faithfulness is so hope filled because that's what as Christian parents we want our kids to have.
How did you end up in research?
And so how did you end up in research?
Scott McConnell: I studied marketing and strategic management in college and my first job was a market research job. And a couple years in we ended up doing a project for Lifeway and, and I was immediately interviewing pastors, doing qualitative interviews and I said wow, I can use research for, for kingdom purposes, this would be awesome to do. And they had an opening for just a research assistant. And my wife and I picked up and moved across the country. And I've been working at Lifeway ever since.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, like I said, I think having some facts are really important. We can't just go on emotion. Having some facts to inform us is really important.
You recently did some research about Gen Z's level of church participation
And you've doing this for a while now at Lifeway and the world has really changed a lot Scott. And how have you seen that change in the work that you're doing at Lifeway? Have you changed in strategy? Has there been a trend that has surprised you, that has not surprised you? What does that trajectory of your career looked like for research on matters related to the Christian faith?
Scott McConnell: You know so much of research is really describing the context that we're living in and in this case that we're doing ministry within, in the local church or as a believer in your life. And our culture has changed a ton the last 20 and 30 years. And as we've shifted toward being a secular culture, while there's still many Christians in America, the culture really has shifted beyond that and has kind of assumed a secular starting ah point and that can be discouraging for an individual and because the spiritual soil ah in America appears to be less productive, that can be also very discouraging for pastors and ministry leaders as they're serving. They grew up with mentors where if you did this, this and this, you saw a lot of fruit and they're doing those things and they're not seeing the same impact and so they start questioning themselves. And it's a discouraging time for many pastors and chur leaders.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It definitely can be because even looking at some of the secular research that has come out, I know, you know, for me as, as a nurse, I am really, really proud to be a member of the profession that is ranked the most trusted by the public, and we have been since 2001. But when you look at the trust levels and pastors, I can imagine how absolutely disheartening that may be. And so here's a shout out. If you have a great pastor who loves your church and you just love them and you love him and you, you love their family, tell them that, encourage them. That is so important to do. And some of this latest research that you've done actually can be some encouragement not just for pastors, but for any church member, for anybody invested in Gen Z, which Gen Z they're about in their late teenage years, up into their early 30s. Just in case anybody's wondering how old is Gen Z? That's what we're looking at. These are, these are young people who are entering the workplace, who may be in college, who are starting their families, that they're in that young adult stage. And you just recently did some research about Gen Z's level of church participation that may have some encouraging findings for us. Can you tell us about it?
Scott McConnell: Yeah, you know, one of the, the most surprising things is to see just how engaged Gen Z is in church. And I need to quickly remind us of the bigger context when we look at, at some of the, the, the studies that are looking at all Americans and Gen Z is much less likely to identify as Christian, much less likely to participate in church than baby boomers or Gen X. thankfully, there wasn't quite as big of a drop compared to the generation right before them that we were seeing where everything was stair stepping down. but they're much less likely to be in church. Our survey looks at those who are. So among those who are in church in a typical month, it turns out that almost half of them are literally there every time the door's open.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Something.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Wow.
Scott McConnell: And so if they're in church, they tend to be really engaged. And the more we think about it, it actually kind of makes sense that it's such a big decision to say, yeah, I'm going to go to church, I'm going to kind of go against what the majority in my generation is doing. and not Being engaged at all, I'm going to jump in. And so if you're going to jump in, you. You've kind of said, hey, I'm committed. And so that can be really refreshing that you're, you know, as an older adult, you're seeing that same face in church almost every time the doors are open. And, and that's encouraging to see any young people, but then the ones you see, you're seeing them often.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really encouraging. But they're still. It doesn't mean that there's not work to do because a lot of what your research does is to inform application. And we're seeing, you know, what I'm seeing discussed on social media and in spirit circles, that there is a really big gap between participation and application, like going, but then actually engaging in discipleship. What, what does that gap tell us about the difference between being involved and actually pursuing an active discipleship journey?
Scott McConnell: I, I think the first thing is, is we can't assume just because we're seeing somebody at church, that they're believing the same things we believe, that they're desiring to do exactly what scri. Or that they're living out, their faith when we don't see them. and so we can't assume. And so it's a very good thing that they're there. They're going to be hearing truth while they're there. but they're often, especially with young people, a lot of holes in their belief system, in their theology. There's a lot of missing elements where they're not fully on board yet. And some of that could be intentional. They're choosing not to. Other times it can be more ignorance. They haven't learned that yet. And so there's a lot of work to do. just explaining, the beauty of God is that there's so much to explore about him and he has revealed so much about himself in the Word of God. but you don't just pick that up, give it a quick read like you would a social media post and say, I've got it. You've got to really dive in and, and taste and see that the Lord is good.
Scott: When we come back, I want to talk more about theology
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I really want to talk about that. We're coming up on our first break, Scott, but when we come back, I want to talk more about theology, because that's a word even that can be really off putting for some people or just seem very inaccessible. And you think like, well, I'm not a theologian, I'm not going to seminary. And yet we're all called to a personal learning journey in our faith. We're called to work out our faith. And it's so important for us to have really good theology because it can be very easy when trials come our way, when testing comes our way, when difficulties come our way, when bad things happen in the world, to really be thrown about on the waves of culture who are trying to come up with a secular explanation for that. And that is really hard. And so when we come back, we'll talk some more about that, what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. And we're really going to talk a lot about multi generational, generational discipleship and how older generations can teach the younger generations that is biblical. And we'll talk about what the research says, how that will inform church ministry environments and whether you're on staff, whether you are a lay leader, whether you're a church attendee. I encourage you to really look around and look for young people. Pull them under your wing and take them under. Take them under your wing and help to disciple them. We'll talk more about how to do that when we come back.
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Amazing! by Elevation Rhythm and Josiah Queen: But now I see I was dead for every until you rescue me I was stuck in my shame but now I've been set free now it's my own identity I was but now I see I believe in I believe you die on the cross you think my name is I I believe that he walk right out.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is amazing by elevation, Rhythm and Josiah Queen. And we are talking about something that is amazing to me. We are talking about Gen Z, A, generation of young people who are older teenagers and young adults now who are seeking the Lord. We're talking today to the executive director of Lifeway Research. His name is Scott McConnell and he's talking about the work that he has been doing with Lifeway over the last few decades now to really help find out what's going on in the church world and to equip leaders to be able to respond to it. And when we're talking about today research showing there's a gap between church attendance and discipleship. And it's important for us when we are Taking our kids to church even now, not to just ask, like, did you go to church? And even anybody, anybody in our. But what did God teach you? How did you experience God's presence? What are you going to do differently because of it? Where did you struggle with? What'd you learn that was new? What is God asking you to trust him with? Who can you serve this week? What are you struggling to believe? The goal is to connect biblical truth with real life. That really is the heart of where discipling comes into the picture. And parents and grandparents, we do not have to outsource that, that, that process to the church. We, the church is there to equip families. But discipleship is happening in the car, at the dinner table, during difficult conversations, and while serving others and when children are watching adults around them live out their faith. And I talked yesterday to the single parent and blended family minister from Houston's first church, and he was talking about how, there's a lot of generation. There's a generation of Christians who were not discipled themselves as children growing up, and they're learning to disciple. And that's really where the chur can step in and help. And that's what we're talking about today with Scott. What do we. How do we help with this discipleship journey? How do we move people just from simply consuming Christian content to actually applying it to their lives?
Two broad areas that we see Gen Z struggling with are exercising faith and living unashamed of the Gospel
So, Scott, let's pick it up there and see what, what are some of the specific struggles that you see in Gen Z, and what do you think churches should do differently in response to that?
Scott McConnell: Yeah, two broad areas that we see Gen Z struggling with. One is exercising faith and the other is living unashamed of the gospel. when it comes to living out their faith, the indicators that that's not there in their lives is really the presence of a lot of doubts. And, with almost half of them really indicating that, there are doubts present, of whether God loves them and will provide for them, m. Or doubting that God is involved, when things happen in their lives that they can't fully explain. And so obviously those can be kind of spiritually debilitating. We all can experience those doubts. But when they're persistent, when they're frequent, that can really hold a lot of other areas back. And it's probably related to the fact that often they're not speaking up and letting other people in their lives know that they're even a Christian. And so, you know, those two areas kind of related to each other, can really slow down A young person. And while those can be important, sometimes struggles and seasons of suffering that can strengthen their faith for the long term, they really need people in their lives, who are more spiritually mature, really helping them through that seed.
Gen Z is increasingly consuming Christian content from influencers
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know what I see Gen Z doing when they're curious and they're wanting to know is they're seeking out Christian content and they're consuming it from influencers. And I've written about this actually for the Stand magazine, for American Family Radio and talked about how I have so many concerns about that because it's so one directional, you know, it's just, it's passive. And the algorithm is determining your discipleship. And it's usually very niched. It's very, you know, each influencer has one little thing and it can be helpful, but it's not discipleship. And then, then we have a lack of accountability for influencers who feel pressure to build their platform and don't have an accountability structure like a church would, with church leadership and staff and committees and, you know, deacons and other kinds of spiritual leadership structures that are set up naturally for accountability. And it's also not people walking in life with them. An influencer, a TV preacher, is not going to show up at your house with a gas roll when something hard happens. You know, they're not going to answer the questions. When you're having a fight with your spouse and you're thinking, leaving, I mean, I'm thinking about people I've discipled, you know, Scott, who will call me at 2 o' clock in the morning and say, I think I want to leave. What, what should I do? And being able to meet them in that moment, that's not something an influencer can do. And of course people have done that for me as well. How do we move people, young people, especially from just that consumer mentality of content to applying scripture actively with someone who's mentoring you, who's walking you through that, who has good theology and applying it to our everyday.
Scott McConnell: We live in a culture today that doesn't talk very much about the value of relationships. And I think you mentioned earlier the lack of trust in institutions today. And a lot of that is because we have no relationships at those institutions. So when you go into the bank, you don't know any of the people in there. And so you just treat it as a they instead of somebody who you actually know. Whereas in previous generations they probably knew the teller, at the bank. And so they trusted the bank more simply because they had a relationship, Sociologists tell us that behavior change tends to happen when we're influenced by just a couple close relationships. And that's true not only in things like public health, but it's also true in our spiritual journey. A couple people who can really speak into our lives and that we trust are going to encourage us to move in good directions far more than a chunk of content, even if that content is absolutely true. And unfortunately, too often the content that they're consuming, is short form instead of long form. so even though it's good content, they also could be fed. people who are experiencing the same doubts that they are as AI's algorithms will often mirror what you're saying rather than an objective source of truth. and so you start hearing, oh, other people are doubting. And so that starts reinforcing your doubts rather than reinforcing truth into your life. And those close relationships, especially when those relationships are anchored, in scripture, in a discipling relationship that's going to be drawing you to the truth, that's going to be, caring about you as well as, as presenting truth into your life where you need it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, it's easy to see where the gap is occurring because we've had people going to church on Sunday morning. That is a great start. I am so all for that. And I think it is one of the best things that families can do is attend church together on a weekly basis. But that's just a start, isn't it, Scott? I mean, that that's just a start because it's not likely that on, Sunday morning, you know, when they say, okay, turn and greet your neighbor, you're going to greet somebody and say, you know, I'm really not very deep in my discipleship. And really, like, where can I get plugged in further? Like, I very rarely hear that during the greeting time. So how do we encourage young people to actively seek discipleship from people in their community? And how do we encourage older people, and maybe not even older chronologically, just maybe who are older in their faith? How do we encourage them to reach out and to offer discipleship and say, hey, I'd love to meet with you, I'd love to mentor you? How do we push people out of those boxes to connect?
Scott McConnell: I think we all have to be leaning in and creating a culture within our churches that says, this is the normal, this is normal. Discipleship is us investing in other believers. And honestly, young people, people understand that more than older generations, 7 out of 10 Gen Z are saying they intentionally spend time with other believers to help them grow in their faith, whereas less than half of boomers say the same thing. So they're looking for it. They're at least trying, even though, again, there's holes in their faith and in their theology. So they may not be doing really well, but they're at least wanting to. And, and yet the older generations aren't necessarily looking to do the same. And so, you know, the very people who they need to be looking to, to mentor them and to disciple them aren't necessarily looking, to do the same. And so I think if we can create a culture that says, you know, asking, the hard questions of each other, asking about just more, where were you last week? But also, you know, how are specific areas of your walk with Christ going? with just a couple people. pastors tell us that the best discipleship happens in groups of two to five. And so even though they put a lot of emphasis and a lot of work in those large group meetings of sermons and other teaching times, they, believe that it is those intimate conversations where we can be real with each other, and again, still focused on the truths of Scripture, that, that the impact can happen.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I'm really convicted by my own kids. I've got, I got four kids, and they're all Gen Z, although my youngest tends to skew a little more Gen Alpha just because right at that, you know, right at that generational break there. But recently I was with my three older college students, and we had the ability to spend an extended amount of time together this summer. And when we were sitting at dinner, we were having a discussion about discipleship. And, and, and I asked them, I, I said, where do you see gaps in, in my own life? And man, I will tell you, one of them had no problem just saying, I think you need more accountability. I think your generation needs to invest in more accountability. You're about learning, but you're not. And you're about, and, you know, teach me about things, and I want to apply those to my life. But, hey, maybe don't hold me accountable for that. And that was really convicting because they were really talking about how in their generation they seek that. And that is really kind of a normal thing. But I think there are so many things that we can learn from each other in generations and multiple generations. You know, the older teaching, the younger. But really, you know, we, we get encouraged in scripture. Don't let anyone look down on you because you're long young, but set an example for the believer. And so how can we encourage some intergenerational interactions and discipleship here? What, what do you see from the research, Scott? How does that inform you the.
Scott McConnell: Some of the studies we've done, in women's ministry and in men's ministry, you know, highlight this need. because those are settings within the church where we're not sorting by age group. you know, doing some things by age group can be super helpful because at certain stages and ages of our life where we have the same needs. And so those can be very helpful times in a church setting. But when we kind of flip things in the church and we say we're not, we're going to actually have people of all age together, together with just women or just men, we start to see those conversations of both describing the need to build relationships across generations, but also saying, hey, if we actually have intentional activities through our women's ministry, through our men's ministry, we actually see that happening. And so I think, you know, that's one example. It doesn't have to be the only one serving alongside each other. The same thing can happen. but creating opportunities, creating experiences within the church where those, those, those cross generational relationships can happen and are encouraged to happen. I, I think it is a healthy step toward, toward what is missing and what, what young people are looking for.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think of, one particular woman that I worked with in the children's ministry. She was a grandmotherly age and she worked with preteens. And it was so precious, Scott, to see her go to camp because they had this huge, like, really scary swing that, that I did not want to ride on. I really didn't. And the kids were scared of. And we thought, oh, you know, who's going to. They wanted, one of the sponsors to ride it with them. And it was this, this granny, you know, this grandmother kind of figure who was like, I'll ride it with you. And she got on this way. Oh, they had so much fun. And it gave her such an opening to speak into their life because they had had that experience together and kind of lived a little sliver of life together. And I just love it when I see, you know, older generations encouraging the younger and younger generations inspiring and encouraging the older ones. That's a, A beautiful thing. And so what are some ways, what do you see from research that are some practical, effective ways that ministry staff, that ordinary church members even can just intentionally connect those age groups? You mentioned serving together, which is great. You mentioned, you know, having men's Ministry events, women's ministry events. Is there anything else that you can think of that you'd like to talk about?
Scott McConnell: You know, the, the other thing that comes to mind is just, just a reminder that while content is important, important relationship is even more important. and, we see that in some of our research among young adults, how important teenagers, relationships with adults in the church are. and m. If they don't have any relationships with adults in the church, they're not guaranteed, but really close to, statistically, they're really close to not staying in church as a young adult. And so this begins even before they're a young adult adult. it begins as a teenager. And I just think there's so many forces in our culture, that our relationship skills just aren't there. when I travel outside the U.S. simple habits. Like in Latin America, if you walk into the room, you greet every individual in the room before you start what you're going to start doing. We don't do that in America. But that little gesture of you walking in a room and greeting the young people as well as, the others who are in the room sends such a message to them that you care about them, you respect them, and it opens up the relationship possibilities that if you didn't greet them when you walk in the room, may never happen. And when you're remembering what their interests are, when you're caring about what's going on in their lives, that has an impact as a teenager. And then the same, the same is true, as, as you're trying to relate to them as a young adult.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so true. When we come back, I'm going to tell you about my experience that I had in Kenya. I had a very similar experience to you. Deeply convicted and very humbled and really changed the way that I looked at teaching and ministry when I came back and to the United States. And when we come back, we're going to talk some more with Scott McCoy, the executive director of Lifeway Research. And what are the facts? What do we need to know? And how does that need to change the way that we are engaging and interacting with those around us in discipleship, all seeking the Lord. We'll find out more on the other side of this break.
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Dr. Jessica Peck: There's a gap in having discipleship
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Fear is Not My Future by Kirk Franklin and Maverick City Music. And that's really exactly what we're talking about today, that we are not called to be a fearful people. We are called to be a, faithful people. And we're looking at what does the future look like. And someone here who's here to tell us about trends that are impacting future ministry directions is my guest today, Scott McConnell. He's the executive director of Lifeway Research and he's talking about some of the recent research, specifically about Gen Z and how they're attending church more. But there's a gap in having discipleship. So we're talking about what do the facts tell us and how can we respond to those and be wise and be engaged. And right before the break, Scott was talking about how in America we really don't have the, some of the strengths of a relationship based culture and some of the relational skills, we see that diminished a lot, especially in younger generations. That was exacerbated by Covid that drove everyone to isolation and digital devices. And when we go places we don't tend to, you know, focus on greetings. And I told you that I would tell you and I've said this before, but this summer I had the distinct privilege and pleasure of going to Kenya. And Kenya is such a relationship based country and anywhere that I would go and I was often visiting groups of children, so we're Talking about kids 8 to 10 years of age and we would, I would walk in and say, hello, you know, I'm Jessica, and just give a little brief introduction and they're like, okay, we're going to do introductions. And they had so many games, so many little routines, so many Fun ways that everybody would be introduced, and it might be just say your name and your favorite color and. But they would remember that they're like, oh, you're Jessica, who likes pink. And they would remember that. And it was so convicting to me to realize how many times I can walk in and out of a church service and I don't even remember who was sitting next to me. And maybe, you know, somebody in my family would say, yeah, those people sitting to the right. And I'm like, oh, did I look around? Did I even look up? Did I even look from outward of myself? That's so important. So don't underestimate the potential that you have to build relationships when you're going to church and to walk in discipleship in an intergenerational way. And I hear over and over from so many ministry leaders who have come on this program who talk about not to emphasize programs, make sure you're prioritizing people over programs. That is really important because it's not, it's not possible for the church to manufacture every discipleship relationship. But really, sometimes those resources are just sitting in the pews. Discipleship, in it of itself, is so relational. That's the biblical model that we have. And you know what I see now, Scott, is a big emphasis on evangelism, which is great, and there's so many organizations that are doing such great things. But how do we, how do we move from evangelism to discipleship? What does your research show about the difference, between churches that offer discipleship activities and those that actually have an intentional disciple making strategy?
Scott McConnell: Well, it's not surprising that pastors tell us that almost every church has activities that could fall in that discipleship category. They have activities intended to help somebody mature in their walk with Christ. But those same pastors, just half of them, tell us they have an intentional disciple discipleship plant. And a very similar number of pastors, just half, say they're satisfied with the state of discipleship in their church. So there's a lot of activity in a typical church. It's a much smaller number of churches that are being intentional and really are communicating well about it and really linking together the how with that stretch strategy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And so what do we, what do we do about it? What does the research inform? What should. They should have a plan is what I'm thinking that you're saying here. Like, having a plan is really good, but what, where do they even start if they're thinking. Yeah, I, I've talked to a lot of pastors who seem to have this on their heart. How do you practically equip them with that data?
Scott McConnell: One of the ways that Lifeway encourages people to do this is, is really to go to scripture first and, and to really, really talk about as leaders in the church, what does a mature disciple look like. And ah, as you begin to see that in scripture, land on some wording that you will use as a church to describe what that is. And the reason we encourage that is when we ask leaders about discipleship, everybody mentions something different.
Dr. Jessica Peck: So imagine that.
Scott McConnell: So the churchgoer, if they're listening for, for it, they're going to hear something different from everyone and it's going to be really confusing, even though there may be truth in everything that people said. So if we can look at scripture, be talking about what scripture describes as a disciple, somebody who looks like Christ, but let's get some consistent language in our church. So that way they're hearing the same thing over and over again. It's a clear destination that we're trying to shoot for. And yes, it's in one sense it's an impossible destination. Perfection. As Peter said, we're called to be perfect. But that perfection is not something we do on our own strength. It's something that the Holy Spirit enables us to take steps forward and God designed for us to follow him together with other believers who are encouraging and helping us along that journey. And so that's the area where we encourage, encourage, churches to start and that, that begins to, to lay out a more consistent framework that may use a lot of the activities the church already has in place. But when people understand the goal of the activity of making that disciple, the activity can be much more effective. as everybody involved knows what, how it's supposed to work.
Scott: How do we encourage discipleship as a measure of spiritual growth?
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, one of the things that we've been emphasizing during this whole conversation, Scott, is that discipleship is relational. And those relational elements are some of the hardest to measure. I know that in science it's, I want the data that's really easy to measure. Give me the demographics. And church life is no different. They want to be able to measure things how, you know, how many people are attending, how many baptisms, all of those kinds of things, what's the money that's being given? And those things are all important metrics. But what, how do we encourage discipleship as a, measure of spiritual growth? What are some of the things maybe that you're measuring in research that would help the ministry leaders to direct those outcomes toward think, oh yeah, that's a way that we can measure what we're doing, even though, you know, we know that's not the most important thing. It is. It is still important.
Scott McConnell: This may take a little of the air out of the balloon, but there's not a metric as simple as just attendance or something that simple. but the kinds of metrics that we should be caring about are questions that simply reflect Scripture. And so the kinds of questions we've asked on our state of discipleship research are asking about beliefs. They're, asking about desires of people in terms of wanting to follow Christ in certain areas of their life, and then asking about actions that they're doing outside of church that we may not see, we may not know about. And, you know, really, those. Those are not magic questions. They're not, you know, taking our assessment is not the important thing. the important thing is reminding people, finding ways to remind people that that throughout Scripture, God hasn't changed what he's asking for. He wants all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our mind. And so the conversations should be, how are we doing on getting to all? How are we doing in terms of loving God with all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our mind? Because the reality is none of us are there. We are all broken, we are all weak, and we all have a long ways to go. But, this journey is a journey we're supposed to take together, and it's a journey toward following him more closely. And those are the kinds of conversations we need to be fostering and encouraging within our local churches.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Because I see those churches, you know, sometimes it's easy to skew towards those metrics that are really indicators of good evangelism, of good outreach. You had this many new visitors, you had this many new members, you had this many new baptisms, baptism of new believers. And that's always exciting. People love to celebrate that and to see those. Those testimonies of transformation, of really meeting Christ. But how do we move from that mindset to a more of a discipleship mindset, thinking, okay, yeah, those things are important, and we need to make sure that we don't drop the ball and continue to help people become increasingly like Jesus.
Scott McConnell: You know, this. This is where a church, you know, begins to be really intentional about the activities. I'm using that word really broadly, but trying to within the church, where those honest conversations can happen, where you're looking to the word of God together, so that we're seeing what God is expecting and why, if we go straight to just the what we're supposed to be doing or how we're supposed to be doing it and missing that there's actually a loving God behind these paths that he's described in scripture, then we've missed it if we've lost that emphasis because, really our heart as disciplers should be to be examples of people who really enjoy God, that we are seeking to glorify him and enjoy him forever. And that needs to rub off as much as the life advice, of following God's path that we need to pass on to the next generation.
Scott McConnell is executive director of Lifeway Research
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Scott, one of the things I'm most curious about, just thinking about your position being the executive director of Lifeway Research, a pretty massive undertaking. You really have your ear to the ground in a way that local ministry leaders cannot. Sometimes their knowledge, their perspective, can really be siloed. But you are doing, you know, broad research across the country. I want to know what is the, the thing that, you're most concerned about that's coming out of the research? What has you most concerned? And then conversely, what has you most optimistic? What. What are you most hopeful about?
Scott McConnell: let me start with a hopeful piece. the, you know, as. As we've done some qualitative interviews with churches that have been effective at reaching young adults. One of the, the things that. One of the themes that came out of those interviews was that young people are often wanting to be challenged, and that's simply not being offered to them. You know, we have activities scheduled, but, you know, if they're really wanting to understand theology or they're really wanting to step into some spiritual disciplines in their life, you know, is there somebody willing to show me how to study the Bible on my own? Is there somebody willing to take me on a journey? And it might be pretty intensive for a few weeks to really get the hang of it, but there are a lot of young people ready for that step and, and that would be super helpful in their lives to build some of those rhythms and to build some of those skills, to help in their spiritual journey. But oftentimes we're not even offering those. So I think there's a hopeful opportunity, just because of the interest, the zeal of these young people and the fact that they're present. but sometimes we're assuming they're not ready for that. so to me, that's the most hopeful thing. One of the discouraging things is definitely that there are many churches out there that they themselves have very few young people. So they may look longingly across town and see a church with lots of young people at it. But there are churches that are at a spot where they just don't have young families or they don't have young adults. And, you know, a lot of our conversation earlier about just creating those connections and being intentional about those relationships for those churches, they need to start doing that outside the church walls so that they can start those relationships and then invite those young people in, to their church to start to make those inroads. Because if a young person visits and they look around, they're not going to feel like that's a place for them, and they're going to look around and just assume that they're not welcome. And so, if you're in that situation, you're in a church that doesn't have very many young people, you really have to be super intentional, about, welcoming people. But starting that welcoming outside the church walls and showing the love of Christ
Dr. Jessica Peck: and intangible ways, that is a really convicting thing. That's, something I can really relate to, Scott, because I feel that as a pediatric care provider, I always talk about when teenagers come in and everything is just, you know, like teddy bears and like little sheep and, and things that are for babies. They're like, okay, you're, you're not really prepared for me. This is not really a place for me. Like, you'll make a place for me. But, you know, I don't know if you really intended for me to be here. And so I feel that and see that and looking at building those relationships, that's where it is. You know, when you show up for their kids games or you show up, you know, where, where they are or what they need, and you walk up and you, you have food or you ha. Give them a ride or you provide childcare, you're there to cheer their kids on at an award ceremony. Those are the kinds of relationships that are going to be really impactful.
The challenge is to find discipleship in your life
And Scott, I just. Thank you so much for joining us today and providing your perspective. And to our listeners, this is the challenge that I would give every person listening. Instead of thinking, okay, how many people is my church reaching? Instead of saying, you know, how many people attended, think, who am I discipling in my life? If I am in a position to be able to offer discipleship to someone, how am I doing that? How am I walking along somebody? And if you're in a position where you want to be discipled, what are you doing in your life to seek that out? Who are you talking to? What kind of environments are you going to to say, hey, I want to walk with Jesus and I want somebody to show me how to do that, really think about that and pray about that and take a meaningful step forward to find discipleship that is really important. Maybe that's just as simple as inviting somebody to coffee and having a spiritual discussion. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. I'll see you right back here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
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Dr. Jessica Peck: That's pound 250 baby. If you're a business owner, would you consider a larger donation to claim a write off? Your best gift would be appreciated. A stand alone gift of $15,000 will sponsor an ultrasound machine for a needy clinic helping to save countless babies lives for years to come. All gifts are tax- deductible. Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. PreBorn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends. Welcome, welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you, talking about things that give us hope in the world for healthy families. And we've got a show today that is going to be encouraging. Despite what you may see on doom scrolling. The truth is we live in a culture that is increasingly skeptical of institutions. Open your social media, start a conversation with your neighbor and just say words like big tech or big pharma or even higher education which is experiencing its own sort of reckoning. And we See that, that just increasing skepticism of institutions and the church is not immune to that. And for years we've heard younger generations walking away from their faith. We saw really with the millennial generation, a really big upswell and the movement called deconstruction of their faith. And we've watched headlines about declining church attendance and religious disaffiliation and young people walking away from organized religion. And those trends are very real and they deserve our attention. But the good news I'm bringing you today is new research from Lifeway Research. And it gives us a more nuanced and, and frankly a more hopeful picture. Because when we look specifically at Gen Z adults who are already churchgoers, we see that they are showing up, they are attending worship services, they're participating in small groups, they're serving, they're reading books about spiritual growth, they're participating in Bible studies and retreats and conferences. They're looking for spiritual content online. And in fact, Lifeway research found that Gen Z church goers attend worship services more frequently, in fact, than older generations. And they participate in small groups more often. But here's where the research gives us a challenge. Because participation does not automatically equal spiritual transformation or discipleship. And we're seeing this gap in discipleship. And the research found the Gen Z churchgoers can be highly involved in church while lagging somewhat behind other generations in their personal application of biblical truth to everyday life life. And the challenge isn't simply just getting them to come to the church. The challenge is helping them move from, from church participation from being there to growing in spiritual maturity. And that raises a question I think that we need to be talking about. How do we move from evangelism to discipleship? How do we really focus on that? Because we absolutely need evangelism. People need to hear the gospel. People need to encounter Jesus and I pray that they do. But Jesus didn't give the church a great commission to simply make converts. He told us to make disciples. People who learn to follow him, obey him and increasingly reflect him. And that's what we're going to Talk about with to Today.
Scott McConnell has led Lifeway Research's national polling of Americans and Protestant pastors
My guest today, Scott McConnell, the executive director of Lifeway Research. It's an evangelical research organization based in Brentwood, Tennessee. And it specializes in understanding faith and culture and the issues affecting churches. He spent more than 25 years research the church and culture with Lifeway Christian Resources. And for the last 19 years, so two decades, a lot has changed in that time. I'm sure he'll tell us about that. He has led Lifeway Research's national polling of Americans and Protestant pastors. Now, his work isn't simply about collecting statistics. It's about helping church leaders understand what that data means and what we should do about it. So we're going to talk about some of those research trends, and it's easy to get caught up in kind of the doom and gloom. And you know, for me, working in a science profession, as a professor, as a pediatric nurse, nurse practitioner, I'm like, just the facts, please. Can we start with some facts? And, and then we can kind of see what the picture is. And we're going to get those facts today from Scott. Scott, thank you so much for joining us. We're so grateful to have your time today.
Scott McConnell: Thank you, Jessica. Glad to be with you.
Scott's personal testimony of faith is encouraging for Christian families listening
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Scott, I think it's really encouraging always to hear your personal testimony of faith and just how you met the Lord and how he led you to this, to this platform of research and ministry, which is really not one that we talk about a lot. We talk to a lot of ministers and a lot of speakers, maybe authors. But the work that you do is really important and I'd love to hear how it started.
Scott McConnell: yes, I grew up in a Christian home, and so I was hearing the truths about Jesus from a very early age. And actually the. It. God allowed it to make sense. Ah. even before I was in school, I, was laying in bed one night and I realized my parents and my sister were going to heaven and I was not. And I knew enough to know what to do about it. And so I prayed right then, asking Jesus into my heart to be my Lord and my Savior and to forgive me. there were a lot of doubts after that. And so it was, you know, when I started, at the encouragement of a teacher at age 10, started reading the Bible regularly, that was when really my faith started to take off. But, it was, it was really those early seeds planted, by my family and our local church that, that really sent me toward Christ and, appreciate his. His redemption of me. And you know, when you start out following Christ that early, you know, as you just talked about deconstruction and a lot of those questions that come up as a teenager and as a young adult, you know, I think for me, it's a story of, as those questions arose in my life, I found that God was always faithful. And, and so, you know, that's the beauty of my testimony is not so much how early I came to faith because I had very little to do with that. but really just God's faithfulness that the more I explored the more I kicked the tires on this faith. He's the real deal.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's so encouraging for Christian families listening because I know, you know I meet a lot of teenagers, we're going to talk about Gen Z today who think like well I don't have a test, you know, I didn't go through something really horrible or you know, I didn't have a trial or I didn't run away from the Lord. But that testimony of faithfulness is so hope filled because that's what as Christian parents we want our kids to have.
How did you end up in research?
And so how did you end up in research?
Scott McConnell: I studied marketing and strategic management in college and my first job was a market research job. And a couple years in we ended up doing a project for Lifeway and, and I was immediately interviewing pastors, doing qualitative interviews and I said wow, I can use research for, for kingdom purposes, this would be awesome to do. And they had an opening for just a research assistant. And my wife and I picked up and moved across the country. And I've been working at Lifeway ever since.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, like I said, I think having some facts are really important. We can't just go on emotion. Having some facts to inform us is really important.
You recently did some research about Gen Z's level of church participation
And you've doing this for a while now at Lifeway and the world has really changed a lot Scott. And how have you seen that change in the work that you're doing at Lifeway? Have you changed in strategy? Has there been a trend that has surprised you, that has not surprised you? What does that trajectory of your career looked like for research on matters related to the Christian faith?
Scott McConnell: You know so much of research is really describing the context that we're living in and in this case that we're doing ministry within, in the local church or as a believer in your life. And our culture has changed a ton the last 20 and 30 years. And as we've shifted toward being a secular culture, while there's still many Christians in America, the culture really has shifted beyond that and has kind of assumed a secular starting ah point and that can be discouraging for an individual and because the spiritual soil ah in America appears to be less productive, that can be also very discouraging for pastors and ministry leaders as they're serving. They grew up with mentors where if you did this, this and this, you saw a lot of fruit and they're doing those things and they're not seeing the same impact and so they start questioning themselves. And it's a discouraging time for many pastors and chur leaders.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It definitely can be because even looking at some of the secular research that has come out, I know, you know, for me as, as a nurse, I am really, really proud to be a member of the profession that is ranked the most trusted by the public, and we have been since 2001. But when you look at the trust levels and pastors, I can imagine how absolutely disheartening that may be. And so here's a shout out. If you have a great pastor who loves your church and you just love them and you love him and you, you love their family, tell them that, encourage them. That is so important to do. And some of this latest research that you've done actually can be some encouragement not just for pastors, but for any church member, for anybody invested in Gen Z, which Gen Z they're about in their late teenage years, up into their early 30s. Just in case anybody's wondering how old is Gen Z? That's what we're looking at. These are, these are young people who are entering the workplace, who may be in college, who are starting their families, that they're in that young adult stage. And you just recently did some research about Gen Z's level of church participation that may have some encouraging findings for us. Can you tell us about it?
Scott McConnell: Yeah, you know, one of the, the most surprising things is to see just how engaged Gen Z is in church. And I need to quickly remind us of the bigger context when we look at, at some of the, the, the studies that are looking at all Americans and Gen Z is much less likely to identify as Christian, much less likely to participate in church than baby boomers or Gen X. thankfully, there wasn't quite as big of a drop compared to the generation right before them that we were seeing where everything was stair stepping down. but they're much less likely to be in church. Our survey looks at those who are. So among those who are in church in a typical month, it turns out that almost half of them are literally there every time the door's open.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Something.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Wow.
Scott McConnell: And so if they're in church, they tend to be really engaged. And the more we think about it, it actually kind of makes sense that it's such a big decision to say, yeah, I'm going to go to church, I'm going to kind of go against what the majority in my generation is doing. and not Being engaged at all, I'm going to jump in. And so if you're going to jump in, you. You've kind of said, hey, I'm committed. And so that can be really refreshing that you're, you know, as an older adult, you're seeing that same face in church almost every time the doors are open. And, and that's encouraging to see any young people, but then the ones you see, you're seeing them often.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really encouraging. But they're still. It doesn't mean that there's not work to do because a lot of what your research does is to inform application. And we're seeing, you know, what I'm seeing discussed on social media and in spirit circles, that there is a really big gap between participation and application, like going, but then actually engaging in discipleship. What, what does that gap tell us about the difference between being involved and actually pursuing an active discipleship journey?
Scott McConnell: I, I think the first thing is, is we can't assume just because we're seeing somebody at church, that they're believing the same things we believe, that they're desiring to do exactly what scri. Or that they're living out, their faith when we don't see them. and so we can't assume. And so it's a very good thing that they're there. They're going to be hearing truth while they're there. but they're often, especially with young people, a lot of holes in their belief system, in their theology. There's a lot of missing elements where they're not fully on board yet. And some of that could be intentional. They're choosing not to. Other times it can be more ignorance. They haven't learned that yet. And so there's a lot of work to do. just explaining, the beauty of God is that there's so much to explore about him and he has revealed so much about himself in the Word of God. but you don't just pick that up, give it a quick read like you would a social media post and say, I've got it. You've got to really dive in and, and taste and see that the Lord is good.
Scott: When we come back, I want to talk more about theology
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I really want to talk about that. We're coming up on our first break, Scott, but when we come back, I want to talk more about theology, because that's a word even that can be really off putting for some people or just seem very inaccessible. And you think like, well, I'm not a theologian, I'm not going to seminary. And yet we're all called to a personal learning journey in our faith. We're called to work out our faith. And it's so important for us to have really good theology because it can be very easy when trials come our way, when testing comes our way, when difficulties come our way, when bad things happen in the world, to really be thrown about on the waves of culture who are trying to come up with a secular explanation for that. And that is really hard. And so when we come back, we'll talk some more about that, what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. And we're really going to talk a lot about multi generational, generational discipleship and how older generations can teach the younger generations that is biblical. And we'll talk about what the research says, how that will inform church ministry environments and whether you're on staff, whether you are a lay leader, whether you're a church attendee. I encourage you to really look around and look for young people. Pull them under your wing and take them under. Take them under your wing and help to disciple them. We'll talk more about how to do that when we come back.
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Amazing! by Elevation Rhythm and Josiah Queen: But now I see I was dead for every until you rescue me I was stuck in my shame but now I've been set free now it's my own identity I was but now I see I believe in I believe you die on the cross you think my name is I I believe that he walk right out.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is amazing by elevation, Rhythm and Josiah Queen. And we are talking about something that is amazing to me. We are talking about Gen Z, A, generation of young people who are older teenagers and young adults now who are seeking the Lord. We're talking today to the executive director of Lifeway Research. His name is Scott McConnell and he's talking about the work that he has been doing with Lifeway over the last few decades now to really help find out what's going on in the church world and to equip leaders to be able to respond to it. And when we're talking about today research showing there's a gap between church attendance and discipleship. And it's important for us when we are Taking our kids to church even now, not to just ask, like, did you go to church? And even anybody, anybody in our. But what did God teach you? How did you experience God's presence? What are you going to do differently because of it? Where did you struggle with? What'd you learn that was new? What is God asking you to trust him with? Who can you serve this week? What are you struggling to believe? The goal is to connect biblical truth with real life. That really is the heart of where discipling comes into the picture. And parents and grandparents, we do not have to outsource that, that, that process to the church. We, the church is there to equip families. But discipleship is happening in the car, at the dinner table, during difficult conversations, and while serving others and when children are watching adults around them live out their faith. And I talked yesterday to the single parent and blended family minister from Houston's first church, and he was talking about how, there's a lot of generation. There's a generation of Christians who were not discipled themselves as children growing up, and they're learning to disciple. And that's really where the chur can step in and help. And that's what we're talking about today with Scott. What do we. How do we help with this discipleship journey? How do we move people just from simply consuming Christian content to actually applying it to their lives?
Two broad areas that we see Gen Z struggling with are exercising faith and living unashamed of the Gospel
So, Scott, let's pick it up there and see what, what are some of the specific struggles that you see in Gen Z, and what do you think churches should do differently in response to that?
Scott McConnell: Yeah, two broad areas that we see Gen Z struggling with. One is exercising faith and the other is living unashamed of the gospel. when it comes to living out their faith, the indicators that that's not there in their lives is really the presence of a lot of doubts. And, with almost half of them really indicating that, there are doubts present, of whether God loves them and will provide for them, m. Or doubting that God is involved, when things happen in their lives that they can't fully explain. And so obviously those can be kind of spiritually debilitating. We all can experience those doubts. But when they're persistent, when they're frequent, that can really hold a lot of other areas back. And it's probably related to the fact that often they're not speaking up and letting other people in their lives know that they're even a Christian. And so, you know, those two areas kind of related to each other, can really slow down A young person. And while those can be important, sometimes struggles and seasons of suffering that can strengthen their faith for the long term, they really need people in their lives, who are more spiritually mature, really helping them through that seed.
Gen Z is increasingly consuming Christian content from influencers
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know what I see Gen Z doing when they're curious and they're wanting to know is they're seeking out Christian content and they're consuming it from influencers. And I've written about this actually for the Stand magazine, for American Family Radio and talked about how I have so many concerns about that because it's so one directional, you know, it's just, it's passive. And the algorithm is determining your discipleship. And it's usually very niched. It's very, you know, each influencer has one little thing and it can be helpful, but it's not discipleship. And then, then we have a lack of accountability for influencers who feel pressure to build their platform and don't have an accountability structure like a church would, with church leadership and staff and committees and, you know, deacons and other kinds of spiritual leadership structures that are set up naturally for accountability. And it's also not people walking in life with them. An influencer, a TV preacher, is not going to show up at your house with a gas roll when something hard happens. You know, they're not going to answer the questions. When you're having a fight with your spouse and you're thinking, leaving, I mean, I'm thinking about people I've discipled, you know, Scott, who will call me at 2 o' clock in the morning and say, I think I want to leave. What, what should I do? And being able to meet them in that moment, that's not something an influencer can do. And of course people have done that for me as well. How do we move people, young people, especially from just that consumer mentality of content to applying scripture actively with someone who's mentoring you, who's walking you through that, who has good theology and applying it to our everyday.
Scott McConnell: We live in a culture today that doesn't talk very much about the value of relationships. And I think you mentioned earlier the lack of trust in institutions today. And a lot of that is because we have no relationships at those institutions. So when you go into the bank, you don't know any of the people in there. And so you just treat it as a they instead of somebody who you actually know. Whereas in previous generations they probably knew the teller, at the bank. And so they trusted the bank more simply because they had a relationship, Sociologists tell us that behavior change tends to happen when we're influenced by just a couple close relationships. And that's true not only in things like public health, but it's also true in our spiritual journey. A couple people who can really speak into our lives and that we trust are going to encourage us to move in good directions far more than a chunk of content, even if that content is absolutely true. And unfortunately, too often the content that they're consuming, is short form instead of long form. so even though it's good content, they also could be fed. people who are experiencing the same doubts that they are as AI's algorithms will often mirror what you're saying rather than an objective source of truth. and so you start hearing, oh, other people are doubting. And so that starts reinforcing your doubts rather than reinforcing truth into your life. And those close relationships, especially when those relationships are anchored, in scripture, in a discipling relationship that's going to be drawing you to the truth, that's going to be, caring about you as well as, as presenting truth into your life where you need it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, it's easy to see where the gap is occurring because we've had people going to church on Sunday morning. That is a great start. I am so all for that. And I think it is one of the best things that families can do is attend church together on a weekly basis. But that's just a start, isn't it, Scott? I mean, that that's just a start because it's not likely that on, Sunday morning, you know, when they say, okay, turn and greet your neighbor, you're going to greet somebody and say, you know, I'm really not very deep in my discipleship. And really, like, where can I get plugged in further? Like, I very rarely hear that during the greeting time. So how do we encourage young people to actively seek discipleship from people in their community? And how do we encourage older people, and maybe not even older chronologically, just maybe who are older in their faith? How do we encourage them to reach out and to offer discipleship and say, hey, I'd love to meet with you, I'd love to mentor you? How do we push people out of those boxes to connect?
Scott McConnell: I think we all have to be leaning in and creating a culture within our churches that says, this is the normal, this is normal. Discipleship is us investing in other believers. And honestly, young people, people understand that more than older generations, 7 out of 10 Gen Z are saying they intentionally spend time with other believers to help them grow in their faith, whereas less than half of boomers say the same thing. So they're looking for it. They're at least trying, even though, again, there's holes in their faith and in their theology. So they may not be doing really well, but they're at least wanting to. And, and yet the older generations aren't necessarily looking to do the same. And so, you know, the very people who they need to be looking to, to mentor them and to disciple them aren't necessarily looking, to do the same. And so I think if we can create a culture that says, you know, asking, the hard questions of each other, asking about just more, where were you last week? But also, you know, how are specific areas of your walk with Christ going? with just a couple people. pastors tell us that the best discipleship happens in groups of two to five. And so even though they put a lot of emphasis and a lot of work in those large group meetings of sermons and other teaching times, they, believe that it is those intimate conversations where we can be real with each other, and again, still focused on the truths of Scripture, that, that the impact can happen.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I'm really convicted by my own kids. I've got, I got four kids, and they're all Gen Z, although my youngest tends to skew a little more Gen Alpha just because right at that, you know, right at that generational break there. But recently I was with my three older college students, and we had the ability to spend an extended amount of time together this summer. And when we were sitting at dinner, we were having a discussion about discipleship. And, and, and I asked them, I, I said, where do you see gaps in, in my own life? And man, I will tell you, one of them had no problem just saying, I think you need more accountability. I think your generation needs to invest in more accountability. You're about learning, but you're not. And you're about, and, you know, teach me about things, and I want to apply those to my life. But, hey, maybe don't hold me accountable for that. And that was really convicting because they were really talking about how in their generation they seek that. And that is really kind of a normal thing. But I think there are so many things that we can learn from each other in generations and multiple generations. You know, the older teaching, the younger. But really, you know, we, we get encouraged in scripture. Don't let anyone look down on you because you're long young, but set an example for the believer. And so how can we encourage some intergenerational interactions and discipleship here? What, what do you see from the research, Scott? How does that inform you the.
Scott McConnell: Some of the studies we've done, in women's ministry and in men's ministry, you know, highlight this need. because those are settings within the church where we're not sorting by age group. you know, doing some things by age group can be super helpful because at certain stages and ages of our life where we have the same needs. And so those can be very helpful times in a church setting. But when we kind of flip things in the church and we say we're not, we're going to actually have people of all age together, together with just women or just men, we start to see those conversations of both describing the need to build relationships across generations, but also saying, hey, if we actually have intentional activities through our women's ministry, through our men's ministry, we actually see that happening. And so I think, you know, that's one example. It doesn't have to be the only one serving alongside each other. The same thing can happen. but creating opportunities, creating experiences within the church where those, those, those cross generational relationships can happen and are encouraged to happen. I, I think it is a healthy step toward, toward what is missing and what, what young people are looking for.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think of, one particular woman that I worked with in the children's ministry. She was a grandmotherly age and she worked with preteens. And it was so precious, Scott, to see her go to camp because they had this huge, like, really scary swing that, that I did not want to ride on. I really didn't. And the kids were scared of. And we thought, oh, you know, who's going to. They wanted, one of the sponsors to ride it with them. And it was this, this granny, you know, this grandmother kind of figure who was like, I'll ride it with you. And she got on this way. Oh, they had so much fun. And it gave her such an opening to speak into their life because they had had that experience together and kind of lived a little sliver of life together. And I just love it when I see, you know, older generations encouraging the younger and younger generations inspiring and encouraging the older ones. That's a, A beautiful thing. And so what are some ways, what do you see from research that are some practical, effective ways that ministry staff, that ordinary church members even can just intentionally connect those age groups? You mentioned serving together, which is great. You mentioned, you know, having men's Ministry events, women's ministry events. Is there anything else that you can think of that you'd like to talk about?
Scott McConnell: You know, the, the other thing that comes to mind is just, just a reminder that while content is important, important relationship is even more important. and, we see that in some of our research among young adults, how important teenagers, relationships with adults in the church are. and m. If they don't have any relationships with adults in the church, they're not guaranteed, but really close to, statistically, they're really close to not staying in church as a young adult. And so this begins even before they're a young adult adult. it begins as a teenager. And I just think there's so many forces in our culture, that our relationship skills just aren't there. when I travel outside the U.S. simple habits. Like in Latin America, if you walk into the room, you greet every individual in the room before you start what you're going to start doing. We don't do that in America. But that little gesture of you walking in a room and greeting the young people as well as, the others who are in the room sends such a message to them that you care about them, you respect them, and it opens up the relationship possibilities that if you didn't greet them when you walk in the room, may never happen. And when you're remembering what their interests are, when you're caring about what's going on in their lives, that has an impact as a teenager. And then the same, the same is true, as, as you're trying to relate to them as a young adult.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so true. When we come back, I'm going to tell you about my experience that I had in Kenya. I had a very similar experience to you. Deeply convicted and very humbled and really changed the way that I looked at teaching and ministry when I came back and to the United States. And when we come back, we're going to talk some more with Scott McCoy, the executive director of Lifeway Research. And what are the facts? What do we need to know? And how does that need to change the way that we are engaging and interacting with those around us in discipleship, all seeking the Lord. We'll find out more on the other side of this break.
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Fear Is Not My Future by Kirk Franklin and Maverick City Music: just open up in just three streets. Me sweaty pouring out is nothing you ever see. You ever see. Hello peace, hello joy. Hello love, hello, stream is a new horizon. Hello peace, hello joy. Hello love. Hello strength. Hello, hope is a new horizon.
Dr. Jessica Peck: There's a gap in having discipleship
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Fear is Not My Future by Kirk Franklin and Maverick City Music. And that's really exactly what we're talking about today, that we are not called to be a fearful people. We are called to be a, faithful people. And we're looking at what does the future look like. And someone here who's here to tell us about trends that are impacting future ministry directions is my guest today, Scott McConnell. He's the executive director of Lifeway Research and he's talking about some of the recent research, specifically about Gen Z and how they're attending church more. But there's a gap in having discipleship. So we're talking about what do the facts tell us and how can we respond to those and be wise and be engaged. And right before the break, Scott was talking about how in America we really don't have the, some of the strengths of a relationship based culture and some of the relational skills, we see that diminished a lot, especially in younger generations. That was exacerbated by Covid that drove everyone to isolation and digital devices. And when we go places we don't tend to, you know, focus on greetings. And I told you that I would tell you and I've said this before, but this summer I had the distinct privilege and pleasure of going to Kenya. And Kenya is such a relationship based country and anywhere that I would go and I was often visiting groups of children, so we're Talking about kids 8 to 10 years of age and we would, I would walk in and say, hello, you know, I'm Jessica, and just give a little brief introduction and they're like, okay, we're going to do introductions. And they had so many games, so many little routines, so many Fun ways that everybody would be introduced, and it might be just say your name and your favorite color and. But they would remember that they're like, oh, you're Jessica, who likes pink. And they would remember that. And it was so convicting to me to realize how many times I can walk in and out of a church service and I don't even remember who was sitting next to me. And maybe, you know, somebody in my family would say, yeah, those people sitting to the right. And I'm like, oh, did I look around? Did I even look up? Did I even look from outward of myself? That's so important. So don't underestimate the potential that you have to build relationships when you're going to church and to walk in discipleship in an intergenerational way. And I hear over and over from so many ministry leaders who have come on this program who talk about not to emphasize programs, make sure you're prioritizing people over programs. That is really important because it's not, it's not possible for the church to manufacture every discipleship relationship. But really, sometimes those resources are just sitting in the pews. Discipleship, in it of itself, is so relational. That's the biblical model that we have. And you know what I see now, Scott, is a big emphasis on evangelism, which is great, and there's so many organizations that are doing such great things. But how do we, how do we move from evangelism to discipleship? What does your research show about the difference, between churches that offer discipleship activities and those that actually have an intentional disciple making strategy?
Scott McConnell: Well, it's not surprising that pastors tell us that almost every church has activities that could fall in that discipleship category. They have activities intended to help somebody mature in their walk with Christ. But those same pastors, just half of them, tell us they have an intentional disciple discipleship plant. And a very similar number of pastors, just half, say they're satisfied with the state of discipleship in their church. So there's a lot of activity in a typical church. It's a much smaller number of churches that are being intentional and really are communicating well about it and really linking together the how with that stretch strategy.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And so what do we, what do we do about it? What does the research inform? What should. They should have a plan is what I'm thinking that you're saying here. Like, having a plan is really good, but what, where do they even start if they're thinking. Yeah, I, I've talked to a lot of pastors who seem to have this on their heart. How do you practically equip them with that data?
Scott McConnell: One of the ways that Lifeway encourages people to do this is, is really to go to scripture first and, and to really, really talk about as leaders in the church, what does a mature disciple look like. And ah, as you begin to see that in scripture, land on some wording that you will use as a church to describe what that is. And the reason we encourage that is when we ask leaders about discipleship, everybody mentions something different.
Dr. Jessica Peck: So imagine that.
Scott McConnell: So the churchgoer, if they're listening for, for it, they're going to hear something different from everyone and it's going to be really confusing, even though there may be truth in everything that people said. So if we can look at scripture, be talking about what scripture describes as a disciple, somebody who looks like Christ, but let's get some consistent language in our church. So that way they're hearing the same thing over and over again. It's a clear destination that we're trying to shoot for. And yes, it's in one sense it's an impossible destination. Perfection. As Peter said, we're called to be perfect. But that perfection is not something we do on our own strength. It's something that the Holy Spirit enables us to take steps forward and God designed for us to follow him together with other believers who are encouraging and helping us along that journey. And so that's the area where we encourage, encourage, churches to start and that, that begins to, to lay out a more consistent framework that may use a lot of the activities the church already has in place. But when people understand the goal of the activity of making that disciple, the activity can be much more effective. as everybody involved knows what, how it's supposed to work.
Scott: How do we encourage discipleship as a measure of spiritual growth?
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, one of the things that we've been emphasizing during this whole conversation, Scott, is that discipleship is relational. And those relational elements are some of the hardest to measure. I know that in science it's, I want the data that's really easy to measure. Give me the demographics. And church life is no different. They want to be able to measure things how, you know, how many people are attending, how many baptisms, all of those kinds of things, what's the money that's being given? And those things are all important metrics. But what, how do we encourage discipleship as a, measure of spiritual growth? What are some of the things maybe that you're measuring in research that would help the ministry leaders to direct those outcomes toward think, oh yeah, that's a way that we can measure what we're doing, even though, you know, we know that's not the most important thing. It is. It is still important.
Scott McConnell: This may take a little of the air out of the balloon, but there's not a metric as simple as just attendance or something that simple. but the kinds of metrics that we should be caring about are questions that simply reflect Scripture. And so the kinds of questions we've asked on our state of discipleship research are asking about beliefs. They're, asking about desires of people in terms of wanting to follow Christ in certain areas of their life, and then asking about actions that they're doing outside of church that we may not see, we may not know about. And, you know, really, those. Those are not magic questions. They're not, you know, taking our assessment is not the important thing. the important thing is reminding people, finding ways to remind people that that throughout Scripture, God hasn't changed what he's asking for. He wants all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our mind. And so the conversations should be, how are we doing on getting to all? How are we doing in terms of loving God with all of our heart, all of our soul, all of our mind? Because the reality is none of us are there. We are all broken, we are all weak, and we all have a long ways to go. But, this journey is a journey we're supposed to take together, and it's a journey toward following him more closely. And those are the kinds of conversations we need to be fostering and encouraging within our local churches.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Because I see those churches, you know, sometimes it's easy to skew towards those metrics that are really indicators of good evangelism, of good outreach. You had this many new visitors, you had this many new members, you had this many new baptisms, baptism of new believers. And that's always exciting. People love to celebrate that and to see those. Those testimonies of transformation, of really meeting Christ. But how do we move from that mindset to a more of a discipleship mindset, thinking, okay, yeah, those things are important, and we need to make sure that we don't drop the ball and continue to help people become increasingly like Jesus.
Scott McConnell: You know, this. This is where a church, you know, begins to be really intentional about the activities. I'm using that word really broadly, but trying to within the church, where those honest conversations can happen, where you're looking to the word of God together, so that we're seeing what God is expecting and why, if we go straight to just the what we're supposed to be doing or how we're supposed to be doing it and missing that there's actually a loving God behind these paths that he's described in scripture, then we've missed it if we've lost that emphasis because, really our heart as disciplers should be to be examples of people who really enjoy God, that we are seeking to glorify him and enjoy him forever. And that needs to rub off as much as the life advice, of following God's path that we need to pass on to the next generation.
Scott McConnell is executive director of Lifeway Research
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Scott, one of the things I'm most curious about, just thinking about your position being the executive director of Lifeway Research, a pretty massive undertaking. You really have your ear to the ground in a way that local ministry leaders cannot. Sometimes their knowledge, their perspective, can really be siloed. But you are doing, you know, broad research across the country. I want to know what is the, the thing that, you're most concerned about that's coming out of the research? What has you most concerned? And then conversely, what has you most optimistic? What. What are you most hopeful about?
Scott McConnell: let me start with a hopeful piece. the, you know, as. As we've done some qualitative interviews with churches that have been effective at reaching young adults. One of the, the things that. One of the themes that came out of those interviews was that young people are often wanting to be challenged, and that's simply not being offered to them. You know, we have activities scheduled, but, you know, if they're really wanting to understand theology or they're really wanting to step into some spiritual disciplines in their life, you know, is there somebody willing to show me how to study the Bible on my own? Is there somebody willing to take me on a journey? And it might be pretty intensive for a few weeks to really get the hang of it, but there are a lot of young people ready for that step and, and that would be super helpful in their lives to build some of those rhythms and to build some of those skills, to help in their spiritual journey. But oftentimes we're not even offering those. So I think there's a hopeful opportunity, just because of the interest, the zeal of these young people and the fact that they're present. but sometimes we're assuming they're not ready for that. so to me, that's the most hopeful thing. One of the discouraging things is definitely that there are many churches out there that they themselves have very few young people. So they may look longingly across town and see a church with lots of young people at it. But there are churches that are at a spot where they just don't have young families or they don't have young adults. And, you know, a lot of our conversation earlier about just creating those connections and being intentional about those relationships for those churches, they need to start doing that outside the church walls so that they can start those relationships and then invite those young people in, to their church to start to make those inroads. Because if a young person visits and they look around, they're not going to feel like that's a place for them, and they're going to look around and just assume that they're not welcome. And so, if you're in that situation, you're in a church that doesn't have very many young people, you really have to be super intentional, about, welcoming people. But starting that welcoming outside the church walls and showing the love of Christ
Dr. Jessica Peck: and intangible ways, that is a really convicting thing. That's, something I can really relate to, Scott, because I feel that as a pediatric care provider, I always talk about when teenagers come in and everything is just, you know, like teddy bears and like little sheep and, and things that are for babies. They're like, okay, you're, you're not really prepared for me. This is not really a place for me. Like, you'll make a place for me. But, you know, I don't know if you really intended for me to be here. And so I feel that and see that and looking at building those relationships, that's where it is. You know, when you show up for their kids games or you show up, you know, where, where they are or what they need, and you walk up and you, you have food or you ha. Give them a ride or you provide childcare, you're there to cheer their kids on at an award ceremony. Those are the kinds of relationships that are going to be really impactful.
The challenge is to find discipleship in your life
And Scott, I just. Thank you so much for joining us today and providing your perspective. And to our listeners, this is the challenge that I would give every person listening. Instead of thinking, okay, how many people is my church reaching? Instead of saying, you know, how many people attended, think, who am I discipling in my life? If I am in a position to be able to offer discipleship to someone, how am I doing that? How am I walking along somebody? And if you're in a position where you want to be discipled, what are you doing in your life to seek that out? Who are you talking to? What kind of environments are you going to to say, hey, I want to walk with Jesus and I want somebody to show me how to do that, really think about that and pray about that and take a meaningful step forward to find discipleship that is really important. Maybe that's just as simple as inviting somebody to coffee and having a spiritual discussion. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. I'll see you right back here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Scott McConnell, Executive Director of Lifeway Research, talks with Jessica about the recent findings on Gen Z and church participation.
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Chapters:
(00:00) More than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing ultrasound
(05:08) Scott McConnell has led Lifeway Research's national polling of Americans and Protestant pastors
(06:14) Scott's personal testimony of faith is encouraging for Christian families listening
(08:36) How did you end up in research?
(09:22) You recently did some research about Gen Z's level of church participation
(15:19) Scott: When we come back, I want to talk more about theology
(16:48) Without people like you, this podcast would not exist
(20:21) Two broad areas that we see Gen Z struggling with are exercising faith and living unashamed of the Gospel
(21:58) Gen Z is increasingly consuming Christian content from influencers
(34:11) American Family Association is leading organization in biblical worldview training for cultural transformation
(36:01) Dr. Jessica Peck: There's a gap in having discipleship
(42:20) Scott: How do we encourage discipleship as a measure of spiritual growth?
(46:23) Scott McConnell is executive director of Lifeway Research
(50:15) The challenge is to find discipleship in your life
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