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: and welcome to the Dr. Nursemama show, prescribing hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Every family struggles with exhaustion
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And I have a convicting but encouraging word for you today from my guest who is going to talk to you about something that that every family struggles with. We live in a culture. I'm going to tell you something you already know. We live in a culture that celebrates exhaustion. Busyness is a badge of honor when we look at our calendars, our schedules, the notifications that are constantly going off. Families are running today at a pace that previous generations never imagined. Humans were not designed to live at the speed of a smartphone. And yet that's exactly what we're trying to do, live in a world, world that is on 24 7. And yet even in the church leaders, parents, grandparents, even our kids, we just feel overwhelmed, burned out and exhausted, and we intuitively kind of know why. And yet we seem stuck in this inertia, like we just can't make a difference.
Now, recent research shows that more than half of pastors say their role is often overwhelming
Now, recent research shows that more than half of pastors say their role is often overwhelming. I believe that that is probably true for all pastors. It is tough. It is very tough. And time and rest are some of their greatest challenges. And here's the deeper question for all of us, not just pastors. If spiritual leaders are struggling to rest and this is what they're trained to do, it's what their job is, what does that mean for everyday families? So today we're reframing a powerful idea. What if Sabbath isn't just a church practice, It's a family lifeline. Because. Because whether you lead a congregation or you lead your household and you are discipling children who are under your care, you are discipling someone. And the way you rest or don't rest really teaches your family what you believe about God. So we're going to talk about shifting from survival to a Rhythm of rest, from exhaustion to trusting God to take care of things and from activity just being busy to, to being intentionally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally present with your family. How do we rest and lead? Well, starting at home. Well, I have no one better to talk about this than Dr. Mark Dance. He is the executive director of the Arkansas Baptist Convention. He pastored and planted churches for 30 years before leading pastoral ministries at Guidestone and LifeWay. And he has earned a lot of degrees and he has written this book called Rest well, Lead well why Sabbath matters to your ministry. I have it right here. And let me just say before we dive in, if you have a pastor who is just amazing, you think he is leading well, he is loving our people well, he is doing such a great job. would you do me a favor and would you just reach out and tell him that today, Send him a card, send him an email, send HM him a text message. Let them know that you appreciate what they're doing that is so important. Mark, so glad to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Mark Dance: Honored to be here, I appreciate.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Absolutely.
Mark came to know the Lord at a camp when he was 15
Well, I would love for you just to introduce yourself to our listeners, tell them a little bit about you, how you came to know the Lord and how you came to be sitting with us today with this message. It's very timely, important message about Sabbath.
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, I grew up in a church in East Texas, Tyler, Texas. And I, am a deacon's kid, son and grandson of deacons. I married a pastor's kid and so I switched teams and I've been a past. I've been pastoring churches for 30 years and then after that been pastoring pastors for the last dozen, years currently in Arkansas, but came to know the Lord here in Arkansas when I was 15 at a camp. And so I was born in Dallas, but I was born again in Arkansas. And so, yeah, we have two kids, Janet and I have two kids, one in Tulsa and one in
Dr. Jessica Peck: Waco that I love. I love that you came to know the Lord at camp. I have a special, ah, affection for camp. I served as a camp nurse for many, many, many summers and I think there's just something really special about being able to have a dedicated time away and even today from. So to all the parents out there who are thinking about sending your kids to camp, of course, do your homework, vet it, make sure it's theologically, ah, sound and that it's a safe, thriving, nurturing place for your kids. But send your kids to camp if you can. I think it's such a great experience. But you know, Mark, in ministry today, there's just this kind of quiet assumption. I think that if you're faithful, then you're going to be tired. And we've kind of normalized like it used to be. We would say, how are you? And you'd say, I'm fine. How are you? I feel like everybody today says, how are you? I'm tired. How are you? I'm tired. And it's just. Oh, it just makes my heart just kind of sad. And that, belief hasn't stayed in churches. It's, it's everywhere that we see.
Christian leaders believe exhaustion comes with the territory
And let's talk about some leaders first, though, because leaders in the church, leaders in the ministry, they believe exhaustion just comes with the territory. That's just that mindset. Can you talk about that? And then talk about how that shows up in everyday family life?
Dr. Mark Dance: You hit, the nail on the head. This is a, badge. A business is a badge of honor. You said in the intro, and I can't say it better, and you're right, it's not just ministers. It is a badge of honor. Culturally, we kind of gain our significance from it. And yet that's not the norm in God's word. That's not what God modeled for us in Genesis, commanded, for. Commanded us to do in Exodus and Leviticus and Jesus modeled in the Gospels. I mean, we are a go go culture. so kudos to all the driven ministry leaders and parents. God's designed you to be driven. But, there's another big word besides go in the Bible, and it's called stop. And that's what Sabbath means. It means stop. So they're both neither negotiable. they're both good. Work is good, rest is good. They don't compete with each other. But if you do one and exclude the other, your life is not going to experience, the fulfillment that God planned for you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Mark, one of the things that I've seen is that there's a real blurred boundary. And you see this in ministry especially. It used to be, you know, work was at the church and, and our work was at work, but now families, ministry or just bring that home with them. We have this always on, always accessible culture. And it's really hard to, to have those distinct boundaries where this is my rest time, this is my work time, this is my home time, this is my family time. Everything just seems kind of thrown in the pot together. And I think that's really hard when we're trying to rest because now what's also normal culturally is to feel guilty if you're resting. But like parents this summer, they're going to feel guilty if their kids are doing nothing. They're going to feel guilty if they haven't over scheduled every moment. How did that become so normal and how do we push against that with a biblical worldview?
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, I'm not sure how it became normal, to be honest with you. There was a bit of a panic in the, during the pandemic about people who were afraid of losing their jobs. That kind of actually started after the real estate recession led to the the Great Recession, 2008, 2009. People thought if I take the foot off the gas pedal, I'll lose my job, somebody's going to outwork me. And pastors and Ms. Missionaries and ministers kind of feel the same way that you know, we, we need to, as I would hear growing up, I'd rather rest out than burnout. Like those are the only two options out there. And I don't think you have to choose between. Yeah, yeah. And really the, the work from anywhere is a, is a great option. And we, we can't get or keep good help if we don't have some of these options. But the work from anywhere mindset can turn easily into work from anywhere, anytime. Because we can work anywhere anytime. And so stopping is not as simple, as just having a 24 hour cease and desist, on the weekend, although it does include a weekly day of rest. we have to figure this Sabbath thing out every day because we not only can work too many days, we can work too many hours, we can sleep too little.
Paul tells Timothy to pay attention to his life and to his teaching
And somewhere along the way for a minister and a Christian, a serious Christian, they can easily confuse, denying ourselves with neglecting ourselves. And they're very different in scripture
Dr. Jessica Peck: denying. I want to hear more about that. Yeah, tell us more about that. Because I think, you know, you contrast this really interestingly because you're denying yourself a sacrifice. That's good. You know, men are called to deny themselves to, you know, to lead their families. Every, every Christian is called to deny themselves, pick up their cross, but also the self neglect, like that's, that can be, that's, that's not good. So tell us more about this from the, from the lens of scripture.
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, if you have a, an authority figure in your life that tells you something over and over again, you're going to listen up. You know, it starts with your parents in my home. It was a double clap, so it might be a double snap. You know, they're saying your, your full name, right? So Paul tells Timothy. Paul tells Timothy as his father in the faith, you know, to his. To. In this mentoring relationship, two times he tells me to pay attention. And, first. First time is in Acts 20:28. He's telling Timothy and the other elders, from Ephesus. He says, pay attention to your life and to your teaching. persevere in these things. For in doing this, you saved not only yourself, but also your hearers. So he's at the context there is that he starts the conversation, I'll never see you again. I'm finishing the race God's given me. And, so they all start crying, and that gets awkward. Then they start hugging. And at the end, he gets on the ship and they kiss. And it's just one big, you know, awkward moment. But he says, okay, I'm going to finish the race God gave me, but I want you to pay attention. Pay attention first to your life and to your teaching. Or your translation may say doctrine. Then he writes him a letter, writes him a couple of letters, first and second Timothy. And, he tells him, again, pay attention. actually in Acts says, pay attention to your life and your flock. And then in first Timothy says, pay attention to your life and your teaching. And in most of the schools, our colleges, seminaries and so forth will teach us to pay attention to our teaching and to our flock, but not so much to pay attention to our life, which he puts there first, on purpose. Because if, if the enemy can get our lives upside down, it's not hard that hard to get the, the church upside down. And so pay attention to your life. He says, persevere in this, not only for yourself, but in First Timothy 4:16, he says, not only for yourself, but also for your hearers, the, the collateral blessing of you practicing soul care, practicing self care, and soul and self is the same word. And, and, that helps other people. And so, that's why I wrote the book. That's why I encourage pastors to practice self care. But obviously self care can become selfish if you obsess over yourself, right? And so you don't want to go to that extreme of just obsessing over yourself. And yet you don't want to go the other extreme of, of neglecting yourself because that's poor stewardship of your physical health, mental health, spiritual health, relational health. And that's where a lot of pastors goes wrong. Go Wrong is, is they stop paying attention to the things God says, pay attention to their life.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a really great reframe is thinking about stewarding it because we do have our lives to steward and there's, it seems there's the balance to self care can become toxic if you are, you know, pursuing that above all other things and not looking at that in a biblical worldview. But self neglect can be sinful and not taking care of the body, the life, the relationships that God has given us. And I really see this happening a lot for families, Mark, especially just feeling this guilt if we're not over scheduling every single moment to try to get ahead, to try to make sure our kids have, you know, the best experiences. And a lot of it is well intentioned. But we do have this burnout that's there when we come back. We're at our first break here, Mark, but when we come back, I want to talk about how culture rewards exhaustion. I think this will make us feel a little bit better to know that hey, the world, we're up against it. It's not just, it's not just us. we have external forces at work. But God has given us the power. He's told us we are overcomers and I am convinced that we can overcome. And so if exhaustion is not the goal, which clearly I think no one would agree that it is, we'll explore some countercultural perspectives. What if rest isn't quitting, it's leading? That would be exciting. The book is called Rest well Lead well why Sabbath matters to your ministry.
An ultrasound provided by preborn helped Candace hear her unborn baby's heartbeat
We'll be right back with Dr. Mark Dance
: Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by preborn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside, I mean that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom. Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love.
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Walk With Jesus by Consumed by Fire: So many people trying to fill void inside. So many questions asking how, asking why I might not have all the Answers. But I've tasted and I've seen There's a better path for Jesus. There's no going back for me. I'm gonna live the way he says to live. Do what he says to do. You can choose whatever road you choose. But I'm gonna love the the way he says to love trust the way he says to trust. This world alone will never be enough. So I'm going to walk with Jesus I'm going to walk I'm going to walk I'm going to walk with Jesus I'm going to walk with Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is walk with Jesus by Consumed by fire. And that's what we're talking about today, walking with Jesus. And part of that is our instruction to honor the Sabbath, to have Sabbath rest in our lives.
Dr. Mark Dance talks about ways that culture rewards exhaustion in ministry
And I'm Talking today to Dr. Mark Dance, the executive director of the Arkansas Baptist Convention. He is author of a new book called Rest well, Lead well Why Sabbath Matters to your ministry. And this is so important. We are seeing such burnout everywhere in ministry, in families, and we're going to look at a different way. But before we do that, Mark, I said before the break, we talk about the ways that culture rewards exhaustion. Sometimes I think it can be a little gratifying to think that, okay, there are forces at work against us. Honestly, primarily, those are marketing forces in the attention economy that want to keep our attention 247 for greater potential for being consumers, being able to sell advertisements, sell products. There are forces that work against us, that are rewarding our exhaustion. And it's become kind of culturally just normal for everybody to walk around and say, I'm tired. How. What do you see as some of those forces that are at work against us and how can we resist them?
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, that's a great question. I mean, first of all, applause is addicting. You know, everybody likes. Likes it. You know, I mean, I like it when people are happy. And, And so it's a, one of the life's dopamine hits. When you say yes to somebody, it makes them happy. It makes you happy. And then you add up all those yeses, and then you have another kind of hit, which is what we're trying to avoid on this show today, right, Is, exhaustion that can lead to burnout, which can lead to other things. And so, in terms of outside voices, these aren't voices that are trying to blow up your life or ministry. I mean, there might be some. And yet, these are people who are not responsible for managing your life in Your calendar, if I understand scripture right, that's my job. there's no one else to blame. the devil's doing his part. World, the flesh, the devil, all that. But honestly, I like applause and I like to make people happy. And so sometimes I'm not practicing discipleship by saying yes to everybody actually can disciple people better by saying no or wait to them, which is, not their favorite thing to hear. Nobody likes to hear that. But everyone I talk to is, I, I realize, is trying to use and steward their limited time and energy wisely and lead their family and lead their lives. And so if I can in some way help them figure out, maybe by example, disciple them and show them that you don't have to strive and limp through life, that you don't have to please everybody, but that you can steward that limited time with, in a way that, that does glorify God and does build up the kingdom, but also helps you finish the race that God set you out on.
What do you think are early warning signs that you're running at an unsustainable pace?
Dr. Jessica Peck: What do you think are the early warning signs that you're just running at an unsustainable pace? Because I think we have also normalized turning off our early warning systems because we just run at a baseline of just be feeling exhausted and kind of low level, burned out. And what I see often happen, Mark, is that people don't realize it until a point of crisis. They have a mental health crisis, a relationship crisis, a financial crisis because of, you know, something that fell through the cracks or whatever it is. What do you think that we should look for as early warning signs that, hey, we are really in need of some rest?
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, great question. And honestly, you could answer this. I'd like your opinion on it as well. If I could turn the table, I'm not going to avoid it. But the fact, the fact is, well, I'm just saying out of the gate, Jesus, said the most important scripture. When he was asked the most important scripture, he quoted the Shema, and everybody in the room knew it. The guy that asked the question knew it. they in fact quoted it every morning, every night, as did their parents and grandparents. but it pretty much wraps up the holistic, view of, of how God created us a heart, soul, mind, and strength. And so you're looking for cues about burnout and exhaustion. Just look there is it. I don't. You know, Western thinking compartmentalizes everything. It's hard to compartmentalize a comprehensive covenant like that. And so if Jesus and Moses are right, and we believe they are, then the most Important thing I can do today is love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. So when, in any of those areas, things start to deplete, which by the way, the second commandments. But the relational, the relationships. And so that depletion also can be there. But for example, if I'm not sleeping well, well, what's that got to do with your soul? Well, a lot. I mean, because you're not sleeping well, you're not thinking right now you, you know why Most, most of us don't. But they're connected, right? And if your mood's going sour, if your fuse is getting, if you're gaining weight or losing weight and you can't explain why you're not thinking straight, then don't try to just, you know, go to the people who've been to more classes than you have, that have degrees and, and I tell this to pastors all the time. You don't have to be proficient in everyone else's profession. Listen to your doctor, listen to healthcare professionals, and listen to believers who are mental health professionals. listen to financial, advisors, you know, who know more about, help you with, manage money. I've received help as a disciple maker. My lane is not just to pour into people, but also to allow them to pour back into me. Which is the beautiful picture of the interdependent body of Christ, right, is that no one's an expert at everything, no one's gifted in everything. But when, when, when I start to avoid people, when I start to not sleep well, eat well, my relationships begin to experience, erosion. Then I need to take a breath and stop and ask God to maybe do a self audit on it. Help me, help me audit where I am. Because a lot of times when I experience that exhaustion, which as you said, you know, more than half pastors say they listen sick to Barna and Lifeway research, rarely agree. their research rarely lines up. But on this one area of two separate research projects, they did, six out of ten pastors in both research projects said that they experience, that they're overwhelmed frequently, which, which means that 4 out of 10 pastors are lying about it. That's what that means.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I was thinking that. I wasn't gonna say it, but I'll let you call it out for sure.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I agree.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Parents would be the same.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, yeah. So really the, those are some of the things. But here's what we all have in common. If we can, if we could take the king of one liners here, which I think is Jon the Baptist. He's got the best one liners by Mr. M bumper sticker. Right. But, but the, the one thing he said, the most often, at least recorded in scripture that we need to all hear today is I am not the Christ. If you don't believe that, then you're not going to sleep well, you're not going to rest well, you're not going to let yourself rest well because you think that you, all your family's problems depend on you to solve them. That you are the hero of your church or your ministry. And if you don't show up, if you're not there, if you don't call them back immediately or text them back, then their life's going to fall apart as if you are in charge of everything and you're not. And you're not created to be. You're not the hero of your family or your ministry, nor did God intend you for you to be. And so not only resting is important, but resting cease striving is also what Sabbath means. And it's it, it really does come down to whether you believe that you are the hero or whether God is the hero.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that's really convicting, Mark. I, I remember a time early on in my marriage where my husband and I were having some, what another guest called intense fellowship. We were having a disagreement. And I remember my husband looking at me right in the middle of it and saying, you do realize that I'm not Jesus, right? Like I really need to know that you realize that. And I realized, yeah, my expectations were there. And sometimes we can have expectations to someone else in our family or ourselves being the hero of our own story like you talked about. I think that is, that's really convicting to think about. And you know, you had told me, Mark, that you would ask what I think. And I think everything that you said was really helpful in thinking about that. You know, your heart, mind and soul, because they are all interconnected. God made us a body, mind and soul. But I think that often when we're experiencing burnout, other people around us notice it before we name it and claim it. And you know, your kids kind of start to shrink away from you a little bit. They start to maybe hide in their room a little bit more. Maybe your staff hides in their church offices a little bit more like, oh, let's just. That's kind of a little easily triggered there. Let's just kind of give that some space. And if they say something about it, then what I see is that the person who's being called out is like, offended. You know, how could you say that about me? You don't support me. Rather than really stopping and recognizing that. Mark, I think all of us can imagine that, you know, you've probably been in that situation where you're just kind of grumping around the kitchen or slamming things around and, and somebody in your family says, what are you angry about? And you're like, I'm not angry. And then if you stop and realize it, you're like, I am angry. And you have described Sabbath as a leadership discipline. How do we accept accountability from other people as leaders, leaders of our family leaders, leaders of our church, to see that, hey, we are, we are burning out. And even more than that, how do we be proactive in seeking Sabbath before that, those friction points, those tension points start to hit.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, well, you know, creating boundaries is the obvious answer. and, and much easier for us to talk about than to do. But if we don't have someone holding us account for those boundaries, then they're just simply great ideas or whiteboard moments where like, you know, maybe write an article about it, but they're just ideas until we verbalize them, until we formalize them somehow. And everyone would have a different way of, of applying that. But in, in my life, the, you know, I, I have a team, a small team that helps me know when to say yes, or when to wait and maybe say yes later or, or, or say no. This is not a fit.
Dr. Mark Dance says his team consists of Jesus and Janet
And the chairman of that committee is. My wife. Is.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I love her.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah. So, so basically my little team is Jesus and Janet. And those are, those are the, that's my king and queen right there. And I run everything by them. Now, I haven't always done that. And so when somebody says, are you Busy on, June 28th at 4:00'?
Jeff Chamblee: Clock?
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, that's not, that's not enough information, you know, or are you available? Are you preaching anywhere on this Sunday? Or are you, can you write that? And so what I've, I've learned to do is to, not just stall, but to be more intentional about my, my yeses and my boundaries. And again, it's a discipleship opportunity to, to explain. Well, let me get back to you on this. I want to talk to my team and I'll tell them, you know, Jesus,
Dr. Jessica Peck: your king and queen.
Dr. Mark Dance: Accountability. I have, yeah. My king and queen is this, this is my first love and my second Love, you know, these are. These are my top two covenants. And nobody wants to. Nobody wants me to succeed, more than they do. And m. They're also the ones that I have to put in my calendar so I can talk about Jesus and Janet. But if, if they're not on my calendar, then again, there's another whiteboard idea or blog post. But, so how I do that. And again, everyone's context is different. if you're, if you're a mother of preschoolers right now, don't, don't tune us out, because I know you're going to have to do Sabbath differently. All right? We know that. Don't feel guilty, right? Don't let somebody say, hey, you need to have a date every single week, and you've got two, three preschoolers, okay? You do it once a month, and you are a rock star. You're good, you know? Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. And, so. But for me, I, I had this, My boundaries are pretty simple. I don't have breakfast meetings. My first love is Jesus. I start every day with him, and I don't need to rush past the throne of God. every day. I don't do anybody any good, if I haven't walked with him first. And, and then after, usually after work. For me, my first conversation, a real conversation, uninterrupted by people or devices, is with Janet. she's, she's not a morning person. So, Jesus, the only one, wants to talk to me anyway in the morning, and then in the, in the evening, she gets the best of my attention. And I learned that at 6 o'. Clock. We usually eat at 6 o', clock, whether we eat out or eat at home. Most time we eat at home. And that's my cutoff point. I. I'm not trying to change the world after 6pm for one. I'm a morning person. So I don't, you know, my melatonin kicks in fast and I, I'm useless anyway. And so that starts the Sabbath cycle for me. I can. I'm, gonna run hard from six to six. But then after six, man, I'm out.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I have more questions about this. Listen, the book is called Rest well, Lead well why Sabbath Matters to Your Ministry by Mark Dance. And I got more questions when we come back and we'll talk more about how to lead a family that flourishes under rest. It's countercultural, but it's what we're called to do. We'll be right back.
: Here's Dr. Ligon Duncan from the American
Dr. Ligon Duncan: Family Studios documentary the God who Speaks. I think the most striking thing to me about the Bible is that it not only reveals God to me, it is God speaking to us, revealing himself to us, but in the process of teaching us about himself, he reveals so much about, who we are. I often tell people that one of the ways that, that I know that the Bible is true is the way that it diagnoses my sin. I'm often reading through a passage and I'm thinking, this was written 3,000 years ago, and yet it perfectly diagnoses the state of the sin of my heart. The only way that can happen is if my creator is actually the author of the book. Visit thegodwhospeaks.org
Perfectly by Micah Tyler: I would be perfect if it wasn't for the little ways I, fall short every day of my life. I would be perfect if it wasn't for the million things that I never can seem to get right? But I got this peace inside? Cause I know that every time I give you failures? And you give me grace? All of my problems don't push you away? And somehow you love somebody like me? Don't know how you do it? But you do it perfectly? You do it perfectly?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Perfectly by Micah Tyler. And in a world full of social media, I think we feel pressured to do everything perfectly, even rest well. And you see, there's actually rising marketing forces that are converging on the sleep field. You've got mattresses, you've got supplements, you've got sleep trackers, you've got all kinds of things that are looking at sleep. But really what we're talking about today is, is taking Sabbath is the habit of Sabbath. I'm talking to Dr. Mark Dance about his new book, Rest well, Lead well. Why Sabbath matters to your ministry. And in this world that awards busyness is a badge of honor where we're all running at the speed of a smartphone. We feel guilty for any moment that we might not be doing anything. And then you fill the void with doom scrolling or some sort of electronic entertainment. We've got to be more intentional about resting. And Mark, right before the break, you were giving us some great advice about the king and queen of your life. That would be Jesus and Janet, which I will never forget your wife, who have say into your schedule. And as you were talking, it made me think about the fact that, you know, we are made body, mind and soul, and we only have a finite amount of time and energy. Everybody has the same time in the day. Everybody has a finite amount of physical, mental, spiritual, emotional energy. And when you over commit your time or your energy, somebody else in your circle is going to pay for that. Those things are are often expensive emotionally or time wise. They're expensive. And so that's a question that I've learned to ask myself is okay, if I say yes to this, who's going to pay the cost of it? Is it going to cost my family something? Are they going to miss out on time with me? Because I'm going to need more time than I think or more emotional energy and I'll come home exhausted. And those boundaries are really important. You talked about boundaries and really you described the Sabbath as more. You know, we talk about this elusive pursuit of work life balance and all of that. Like, right, that's what everybody wants. We want the work life balance. But you have suggested that a rhythm is more realistic. How do we take all those things that we've talked about and really pursue a realistic, healthy rhythm of Sabbath?
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, you know, balance. Balance is a bit of a popular word, but it's, it's, it's not, it's not real. Yeah, it's a lie.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It is.
Dr. Mark Dance: It's a pipe dream. Yeah. Well, the fact is you'll feel even more guilty, when you face an inevitable crisis. Right? When, when because you're going to, at work or home, your parents, your kids, your spouse, somebody's going to need you in a certain time. And that's that's important to be present. Jesus went through those same sprints. That's why he was asleep in the boat during the storm, because he was tired. If you look at his schedule before a few verses before that, his cousin was beheaded, fed a bunch of people. You know, it's like, you know, they got so busy that they didn't even take time to eat. And we, we will have those, their sprints. If your life's always a sprint, then that's not really a sprint anymore. It's a lifestyle. And so we can change rhythms in that, you know, like, because the rhythm is, is a pattern that, that adjusts. And so when, when you have as a norm in your, in your week, a time to stop, even if it doesn't happen at the same time every week. The fact is you sewn it into your life just like God's put it into the fabric of our DNA. And to work hard and to stop. Work hard and to stop. He's also sewn it into the fabric of our day. we can't go without sleep. And, you know, some people say I only need, four or five hours of sleep. Well, nobody that's been to medical school told them that. Right? There's nobody with superhero DNA that only needs four or five hours sleep. No, we all need seven, eight hours of sleep. We all need rest. We all need food. We all need people in our lives. We all need Jesus. And so there's some universal things that we can. We can build our life around and build a rhythm to where it's not, where it's normal to stop.
Dr. Mark Dance: Turn your cell phone off when you're not working
You mentioned something very important earlier that, you know, embrace boredom sometimes, you being bored, your kids being bored, there's nothing to do with. They're going to have to be creative. It's like, that's. That's where a lot of creative ideas come from. It's where a lot of connection happens. And so part of what rhythm looks like in my life is that I have to disconnect before I can connect. And so I don't walk into the house on a phone call. you know, I don't take messages. I don't return messages after six that aren't a real emergency. And by the way, church members are the worst at defining what a real emergency is. You know, you're not wrong. Yeah, I was like, come on it. And, one of the best ways that I create rhythm is, on the nights, weekends, especially vacations. And this is pretty radical. I know it's scarred. Hard to believe this, but, I started practicing it some years ago is that I will turn my phone on airplane mode when I'm not working. And pastors go into panic when they hear that because someone, you know, a donkey might end up in the ditch. An oxen in the. You know, it's like, listen, if. If there's always a donkey in the ditch, you're the donkey. Okay, but, but, but what I've told the people in my life is that, if there is a real emergency, this is Janet's cell phone number. And it. Janet's cell phone's always on. So whether I'm out of town or it's on the night or a weekend or in the middle of the night, if there's a real emergency, call Janet's cell phone. Now you're already thinking it. There are. Naturally, they're going to think two, three, four times before they called Janet's cell phone to get me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah. So all you're doing is just making sure you know that because it, it is, and it takes a little bit of courage and faith to turn your cell phone off. And whether it's your phone or tablet or whatever, there's so many ways to reach us right now, and we feel compelled to just get back to people right away. And that's just not normal. It's not natural. It's not how God wired us. It's not what he modeled in scripture and taught us. It says Sabbath is a clear cease and desist order that was originally, enforced by the death penalty in Sinai, desert. This shows you how serious God is about still. It's still in the, it's still in the Ten Commandments. And yet it's more than just a command. Just, it's, it is also a gift. Right? It is, is something that Isaiah calls, three times. He calls it Sabbath, a delight. So, you know, when, when people want, the, the people in your life who want to connect with you and the people that need something from you, you, you, you have to discern whether they're calling Dr. Peck or they're calling Jessica. Right?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah.
Dr. Mark Dance: And, and whether this, this is a real emergency. Yeah. Because then there's, part of the rhythm is how many people am I, giving to and how many people are pouring into me and having some, relevant, you know, some balance there as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're throwing some truth bombs here, Mark. And you speak with, but you speak with such confidence. And it's a little sad to me that, you know, that would be considered radical. It's like having healthy boundaries that we had. And actually this is a great preview of the show that I'm going to do on Friday where we're talking about tech tracking and tracking, how many notifications are actually pulling you away and burning you out. But this comes from a real personal place for you, Mark, and I appreciate you sharing your own personal story. And that definitely has a way of changing you and giving you a different perspective to speak from that lived experience.
Can you share a little bit about your experience with burnout?
Can you share a little bit about your own experience with burnout and how it made you so passionate about these boundaries and following the biblical mandate for Sabbath?
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, happy to. Well, when I, when I first started, in ministry almost 40 years ago as a young pastor, my first year as a pastor, I was also married that year. I was taking seminary classes, including second year Greek and so it was a very hard year. It was the first time, my first year ministry, the first time I realized I didn't have a cape you know, and I, I was just ignoring the Sabbath. I thought that was people that were old or lazy, and. And then 20 years. But ministry was rewarding and fulfilling and I got, I got some rhythm. And until, about 20 years ago, or between, 15, 20 years ago, it was the middle of a relocation, pastoring this, this thriving church. The church was growing. we, we moved from 5 acre to 50 acre, property. And we're going to keep both, to do ministry. And But I just, I completely ran out of gas. I was that overwhelmed guy and also the driven guy who just thought, hey, you know, I'm just going to, you know, for the kingdom. And you know, I just had a, A little, Overvalued my, My role in the, in the advance of the gospel, I guess. So the warning signs came. The warning signs of that you mentioned, and I've mentioned, the erosion in relationships, the people avoiding and me avoiding them. And no meltdowns, or train wrecks. But I, was just. I was different. Like not for a few days or weeks, but for months. I was not the same person. decisions that used to come natural, were very hard. sleeping was hard. Eating was hard. I'm 6:1. I weighed 167 pounds. I could not gain weight. I didn't know why. And I could still do because pastors have an on button. I could still turn it on and smile and preach and just. But, So I did something radical for a caregiver. I asked for help. I reached out to my family doctor and I said, something's different about me. I don't know what it is. And so he asked me a bunch of questions. Questions that your doctor would ask you, that a, mental health professional would ask you, which, Ah, what are you thinking? How are you thinking? What are you eating, sleeping, all these things. I don't remember all the questions. And he just. Yeah, yeah. And he knew me well because he was a member of my church and we've been on a couple of mission trips together. And so. Yeah, and so he said, this is very normal for a driven guy in your early 40s. And so he diagnosed me very casually, has been, clinically depressed. And so I said, well, I actually don't. I don't have time for that, but if you get anything else, I'm open to it, you know. And so anyway, within a week of, that diagnosis, a licensed therapist that was new to our church, that didn't know very well she Said appointment came to my office and she only had two questions. do you know that you're clinically depressed and are you taking anything for it? And I said, yes, ma', am, I do. And she said, oh good. I said, well, I just found out last week, you know, she said, are you taking anything for it? And I said, well, yeah, I picked something up Wednesday. I don't know if it works or not, but I said, hey, would you mind meeting my doctor? You guys kind of become part of my dance team here. And, and so they, they got together and a couple of, my leaders in my church became, that the advocates for me that helped me get healthy again. And I did, I listened to what they said. I went to that counselor, that therapist for five years until I moved to Nashville to start Lifeway Pastors. I met with her, every month even, and I took that. I needed that medication for almost a year until the doctor said I didn't, because I'd burned through my serotonin. And I learned a lot about mental health and my own physical health and just self care and, and. But I'd stop stopping. In my case, I, I didn't inherit depression. I know that, that there's different kinds of, you know, of depression just like there's different kinds of cancer. So I'm not encouraging anybody to self diagnose, but if, if people would care for you, I mean, if you'll ask for help, people listen to the people that are called to and prepared to help you because they're, they're rooting for you. And so in my case, my burnout left untreated, evolved or devolved into a season of clinical depression that lasted probably, four years. And I did become, I did get the old Mark back, which I think everybody was happy about that. But it wasn't overnight, it wasn't easy. And I had to reset my rhythm so that I, I started stopping again, and taking care of myself better. And I became, continued pastoring there. We finished a relocation and I'm now a member of the church. I used to pastor.
Dr. Jessica Peck: So I love that. What a great way to end our time together and such a challenge for people out there listening. Maybe this is your moment that you need to reach out for help and go to your primary healthcare provider. I say that all the time. Or get a copy of Rest well, lead well. Mark. Thank you for your transparency and your grace and sharing hope with us. I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
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: and welcome to the Dr. Nursemama show, prescribing hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Every family struggles with exhaustion
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And I have a convicting but encouraging word for you today from my guest who is going to talk to you about something that that every family struggles with. We live in a culture. I'm going to tell you something you already know. We live in a culture that celebrates exhaustion. Busyness is a badge of honor when we look at our calendars, our schedules, the notifications that are constantly going off. Families are running today at a pace that previous generations never imagined. Humans were not designed to live at the speed of a smartphone. And yet that's exactly what we're trying to do, live in a world, world that is on 24 7. And yet even in the church leaders, parents, grandparents, even our kids, we just feel overwhelmed, burned out and exhausted, and we intuitively kind of know why. And yet we seem stuck in this inertia, like we just can't make a difference.
Now, recent research shows that more than half of pastors say their role is often overwhelming
Now, recent research shows that more than half of pastors say their role is often overwhelming. I believe that that is probably true for all pastors. It is tough. It is very tough. And time and rest are some of their greatest challenges. And here's the deeper question for all of us, not just pastors. If spiritual leaders are struggling to rest and this is what they're trained to do, it's what their job is, what does that mean for everyday families? So today we're reframing a powerful idea. What if Sabbath isn't just a church practice, It's a family lifeline. Because. Because whether you lead a congregation or you lead your household and you are discipling children who are under your care, you are discipling someone. And the way you rest or don't rest really teaches your family what you believe about God. So we're going to talk about shifting from survival to a Rhythm of rest, from exhaustion to trusting God to take care of things and from activity just being busy to, to being intentionally, emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally present with your family. How do we rest and lead? Well, starting at home. Well, I have no one better to talk about this than Dr. Mark Dance. He is the executive director of the Arkansas Baptist Convention. He pastored and planted churches for 30 years before leading pastoral ministries at Guidestone and LifeWay. And he has earned a lot of degrees and he has written this book called Rest well, Lead well why Sabbath matters to your ministry. I have it right here. And let me just say before we dive in, if you have a pastor who is just amazing, you think he is leading well, he is loving our people well, he is doing such a great job. would you do me a favor and would you just reach out and tell him that today, Send him a card, send him an email, send HM him a text message. Let them know that you appreciate what they're doing that is so important. Mark, so glad to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Mark Dance: Honored to be here, I appreciate.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Absolutely.
Mark came to know the Lord at a camp when he was 15
Well, I would love for you just to introduce yourself to our listeners, tell them a little bit about you, how you came to know the Lord and how you came to be sitting with us today with this message. It's very timely, important message about Sabbath.
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, I grew up in a church in East Texas, Tyler, Texas. And I, am a deacon's kid, son and grandson of deacons. I married a pastor's kid and so I switched teams and I've been a past. I've been pastoring churches for 30 years and then after that been pastoring pastors for the last dozen, years currently in Arkansas, but came to know the Lord here in Arkansas when I was 15 at a camp. And so I was born in Dallas, but I was born again in Arkansas. And so, yeah, we have two kids, Janet and I have two kids, one in Tulsa and one in
Dr. Jessica Peck: Waco that I love. I love that you came to know the Lord at camp. I have a special, ah, affection for camp. I served as a camp nurse for many, many, many summers and I think there's just something really special about being able to have a dedicated time away and even today from. So to all the parents out there who are thinking about sending your kids to camp, of course, do your homework, vet it, make sure it's theologically, ah, sound and that it's a safe, thriving, nurturing place for your kids. But send your kids to camp if you can. I think it's such a great experience. But you know, Mark, in ministry today, there's just this kind of quiet assumption. I think that if you're faithful, then you're going to be tired. And we've kind of normalized like it used to be. We would say, how are you? And you'd say, I'm fine. How are you? I feel like everybody today says, how are you? I'm tired. How are you? I'm tired. And it's just. Oh, it just makes my heart just kind of sad. And that, belief hasn't stayed in churches. It's, it's everywhere that we see.
Christian leaders believe exhaustion comes with the territory
And let's talk about some leaders first, though, because leaders in the church, leaders in the ministry, they believe exhaustion just comes with the territory. That's just that mindset. Can you talk about that? And then talk about how that shows up in everyday family life?
Dr. Mark Dance: You hit, the nail on the head. This is a, badge. A business is a badge of honor. You said in the intro, and I can't say it better, and you're right, it's not just ministers. It is a badge of honor. Culturally, we kind of gain our significance from it. And yet that's not the norm in God's word. That's not what God modeled for us in Genesis, commanded, for. Commanded us to do in Exodus and Leviticus and Jesus modeled in the Gospels. I mean, we are a go go culture. so kudos to all the driven ministry leaders and parents. God's designed you to be driven. But, there's another big word besides go in the Bible, and it's called stop. And that's what Sabbath means. It means stop. So they're both neither negotiable. they're both good. Work is good, rest is good. They don't compete with each other. But if you do one and exclude the other, your life is not going to experience, the fulfillment that God planned for you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Mark, one of the things that I've seen is that there's a real blurred boundary. And you see this in ministry especially. It used to be, you know, work was at the church and, and our work was at work, but now families, ministry or just bring that home with them. We have this always on, always accessible culture. And it's really hard to, to have those distinct boundaries where this is my rest time, this is my work time, this is my home time, this is my family time. Everything just seems kind of thrown in the pot together. And I think that's really hard when we're trying to rest because now what's also normal culturally is to feel guilty if you're resting. But like parents this summer, they're going to feel guilty if their kids are doing nothing. They're going to feel guilty if they haven't over scheduled every moment. How did that become so normal and how do we push against that with a biblical worldview?
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, I'm not sure how it became normal, to be honest with you. There was a bit of a panic in the, during the pandemic about people who were afraid of losing their jobs. That kind of actually started after the real estate recession led to the the Great Recession, 2008, 2009. People thought if I take the foot off the gas pedal, I'll lose my job, somebody's going to outwork me. And pastors and Ms. Missionaries and ministers kind of feel the same way that you know, we, we need to, as I would hear growing up, I'd rather rest out than burnout. Like those are the only two options out there. And I don't think you have to choose between. Yeah, yeah. And really the, the work from anywhere is a, is a great option. And we, we can't get or keep good help if we don't have some of these options. But the work from anywhere mindset can turn easily into work from anywhere, anytime. Because we can work anywhere anytime. And so stopping is not as simple, as just having a 24 hour cease and desist, on the weekend, although it does include a weekly day of rest. we have to figure this Sabbath thing out every day because we not only can work too many days, we can work too many hours, we can sleep too little.
Paul tells Timothy to pay attention to his life and to his teaching
And somewhere along the way for a minister and a Christian, a serious Christian, they can easily confuse, denying ourselves with neglecting ourselves. And they're very different in scripture
Dr. Jessica Peck: denying. I want to hear more about that. Yeah, tell us more about that. Because I think, you know, you contrast this really interestingly because you're denying yourself a sacrifice. That's good. You know, men are called to deny themselves to, you know, to lead their families. Every, every Christian is called to deny themselves, pick up their cross, but also the self neglect, like that's, that can be, that's, that's not good. So tell us more about this from the, from the lens of scripture.
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, if you have a, an authority figure in your life that tells you something over and over again, you're going to listen up. You know, it starts with your parents in my home. It was a double clap, so it might be a double snap. You know, they're saying your, your full name, right? So Paul tells Timothy. Paul tells Timothy as his father in the faith, you know, to his. To. In this mentoring relationship, two times he tells me to pay attention. And, first. First time is in Acts 20:28. He's telling Timothy and the other elders, from Ephesus. He says, pay attention to your life and to your teaching. persevere in these things. For in doing this, you saved not only yourself, but also your hearers. So he's at the context there is that he starts the conversation, I'll never see you again. I'm finishing the race God's given me. And, so they all start crying, and that gets awkward. Then they start hugging. And at the end, he gets on the ship and they kiss. And it's just one big, you know, awkward moment. But he says, okay, I'm going to finish the race God gave me, but I want you to pay attention. Pay attention first to your life and to your teaching. Or your translation may say doctrine. Then he writes him a letter, writes him a couple of letters, first and second Timothy. And, he tells him, again, pay attention. actually in Acts says, pay attention to your life and your flock. And then in first Timothy says, pay attention to your life and your teaching. And in most of the schools, our colleges, seminaries and so forth will teach us to pay attention to our teaching and to our flock, but not so much to pay attention to our life, which he puts there first, on purpose. Because if, if the enemy can get our lives upside down, it's not hard that hard to get the, the church upside down. And so pay attention to your life. He says, persevere in this, not only for yourself, but in First Timothy 4:16, he says, not only for yourself, but also for your hearers, the, the collateral blessing of you practicing soul care, practicing self care, and soul and self is the same word. And, and, that helps other people. And so, that's why I wrote the book. That's why I encourage pastors to practice self care. But obviously self care can become selfish if you obsess over yourself, right? And so you don't want to go to that extreme of just obsessing over yourself. And yet you don't want to go the other extreme of, of neglecting yourself because that's poor stewardship of your physical health, mental health, spiritual health, relational health. And that's where a lot of pastors goes wrong. Go Wrong is, is they stop paying attention to the things God says, pay attention to their life.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a really great reframe is thinking about stewarding it because we do have our lives to steward and there's, it seems there's the balance to self care can become toxic if you are, you know, pursuing that above all other things and not looking at that in a biblical worldview. But self neglect can be sinful and not taking care of the body, the life, the relationships that God has given us. And I really see this happening a lot for families, Mark, especially just feeling this guilt if we're not over scheduling every single moment to try to get ahead, to try to make sure our kids have, you know, the best experiences. And a lot of it is well intentioned. But we do have this burnout that's there when we come back. We're at our first break here, Mark, but when we come back, I want to talk about how culture rewards exhaustion. I think this will make us feel a little bit better to know that hey, the world, we're up against it. It's not just, it's not just us. we have external forces at work. But God has given us the power. He's told us we are overcomers and I am convinced that we can overcome. And so if exhaustion is not the goal, which clearly I think no one would agree that it is, we'll explore some countercultural perspectives. What if rest isn't quitting, it's leading? That would be exciting. The book is called Rest well Lead well why Sabbath matters to your ministry.
An ultrasound provided by preborn helped Candace hear her unborn baby's heartbeat
We'll be right back with Dr. Mark Dance
: Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by preborn allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat. The sonogram sealed the deal for me. My baby was like this tiny little spectrum of hope and I saw his heart beating on the screen and knowing that there's life growing inside, I mean that sonogram changed my life. I went from just Candace to mom. Thank you to everybody that has given these gifts. You guys are giving more than money. You guys are giving love.
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Walk With Jesus by Consumed by Fire: So many people trying to fill void inside. So many questions asking how, asking why I might not have all the Answers. But I've tasted and I've seen There's a better path for Jesus. There's no going back for me. I'm gonna live the way he says to live. Do what he says to do. You can choose whatever road you choose. But I'm gonna love the the way he says to love trust the way he says to trust. This world alone will never be enough. So I'm going to walk with Jesus I'm going to walk I'm going to walk I'm going to walk with Jesus I'm going to walk with Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is walk with Jesus by Consumed by fire. And that's what we're talking about today, walking with Jesus. And part of that is our instruction to honor the Sabbath, to have Sabbath rest in our lives.
Dr. Mark Dance talks about ways that culture rewards exhaustion in ministry
And I'm Talking today to Dr. Mark Dance, the executive director of the Arkansas Baptist Convention. He is author of a new book called Rest well, Lead well Why Sabbath Matters to your ministry. And this is so important. We are seeing such burnout everywhere in ministry, in families, and we're going to look at a different way. But before we do that, Mark, I said before the break, we talk about the ways that culture rewards exhaustion. Sometimes I think it can be a little gratifying to think that, okay, there are forces at work against us. Honestly, primarily, those are marketing forces in the attention economy that want to keep our attention 247 for greater potential for being consumers, being able to sell advertisements, sell products. There are forces that work against us, that are rewarding our exhaustion. And it's become kind of culturally just normal for everybody to walk around and say, I'm tired. How. What do you see as some of those forces that are at work against us and how can we resist them?
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, that's a great question. I mean, first of all, applause is addicting. You know, everybody likes. Likes it. You know, I mean, I like it when people are happy. And, And so it's a, one of the life's dopamine hits. When you say yes to somebody, it makes them happy. It makes you happy. And then you add up all those yeses, and then you have another kind of hit, which is what we're trying to avoid on this show today, right, Is, exhaustion that can lead to burnout, which can lead to other things. And so, in terms of outside voices, these aren't voices that are trying to blow up your life or ministry. I mean, there might be some. And yet, these are people who are not responsible for managing your life in Your calendar, if I understand scripture right, that's my job. there's no one else to blame. the devil's doing his part. World, the flesh, the devil, all that. But honestly, I like applause and I like to make people happy. And so sometimes I'm not practicing discipleship by saying yes to everybody actually can disciple people better by saying no or wait to them, which is, not their favorite thing to hear. Nobody likes to hear that. But everyone I talk to is, I, I realize, is trying to use and steward their limited time and energy wisely and lead their family and lead their lives. And so if I can in some way help them figure out, maybe by example, disciple them and show them that you don't have to strive and limp through life, that you don't have to please everybody, but that you can steward that limited time with, in a way that, that does glorify God and does build up the kingdom, but also helps you finish the race that God set you out on.
What do you think are early warning signs that you're running at an unsustainable pace?
Dr. Jessica Peck: What do you think are the early warning signs that you're just running at an unsustainable pace? Because I think we have also normalized turning off our early warning systems because we just run at a baseline of just be feeling exhausted and kind of low level, burned out. And what I see often happen, Mark, is that people don't realize it until a point of crisis. They have a mental health crisis, a relationship crisis, a financial crisis because of, you know, something that fell through the cracks or whatever it is. What do you think that we should look for as early warning signs that, hey, we are really in need of some rest?
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, great question. And honestly, you could answer this. I'd like your opinion on it as well. If I could turn the table, I'm not going to avoid it. But the fact, the fact is, well, I'm just saying out of the gate, Jesus, said the most important scripture. When he was asked the most important scripture, he quoted the Shema, and everybody in the room knew it. The guy that asked the question knew it. they in fact quoted it every morning, every night, as did their parents and grandparents. but it pretty much wraps up the holistic, view of, of how God created us a heart, soul, mind, and strength. And so you're looking for cues about burnout and exhaustion. Just look there is it. I don't. You know, Western thinking compartmentalizes everything. It's hard to compartmentalize a comprehensive covenant like that. And so if Jesus and Moses are right, and we believe they are, then the most Important thing I can do today is love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. So when, in any of those areas, things start to deplete, which by the way, the second commandments. But the relational, the relationships. And so that depletion also can be there. But for example, if I'm not sleeping well, well, what's that got to do with your soul? Well, a lot. I mean, because you're not sleeping well, you're not thinking right now you, you know why Most, most of us don't. But they're connected, right? And if your mood's going sour, if your fuse is getting, if you're gaining weight or losing weight and you can't explain why you're not thinking straight, then don't try to just, you know, go to the people who've been to more classes than you have, that have degrees and, and I tell this to pastors all the time. You don't have to be proficient in everyone else's profession. Listen to your doctor, listen to healthcare professionals, and listen to believers who are mental health professionals. listen to financial, advisors, you know, who know more about, help you with, manage money. I've received help as a disciple maker. My lane is not just to pour into people, but also to allow them to pour back into me. Which is the beautiful picture of the interdependent body of Christ, right, is that no one's an expert at everything, no one's gifted in everything. But when, when, when I start to avoid people, when I start to not sleep well, eat well, my relationships begin to experience, erosion. Then I need to take a breath and stop and ask God to maybe do a self audit on it. Help me, help me audit where I am. Because a lot of times when I experience that exhaustion, which as you said, you know, more than half pastors say they listen sick to Barna and Lifeway research, rarely agree. their research rarely lines up. But on this one area of two separate research projects, they did, six out of ten pastors in both research projects said that they experience, that they're overwhelmed frequently, which, which means that 4 out of 10 pastors are lying about it. That's what that means.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I was thinking that. I wasn't gonna say it, but I'll let you call it out for sure.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I agree.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Parents would be the same.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, yeah. So really the, those are some of the things. But here's what we all have in common. If we can, if we could take the king of one liners here, which I think is Jon the Baptist. He's got the best one liners by Mr. M bumper sticker. Right. But, but the, the one thing he said, the most often, at least recorded in scripture that we need to all hear today is I am not the Christ. If you don't believe that, then you're not going to sleep well, you're not going to rest well, you're not going to let yourself rest well because you think that you, all your family's problems depend on you to solve them. That you are the hero of your church or your ministry. And if you don't show up, if you're not there, if you don't call them back immediately or text them back, then their life's going to fall apart as if you are in charge of everything and you're not. And you're not created to be. You're not the hero of your family or your ministry, nor did God intend you for you to be. And so not only resting is important, but resting cease striving is also what Sabbath means. And it's it, it really does come down to whether you believe that you are the hero or whether God is the hero.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that's really convicting, Mark. I, I remember a time early on in my marriage where my husband and I were having some, what another guest called intense fellowship. We were having a disagreement. And I remember my husband looking at me right in the middle of it and saying, you do realize that I'm not Jesus, right? Like I really need to know that you realize that. And I realized, yeah, my expectations were there. And sometimes we can have expectations to someone else in our family or ourselves being the hero of our own story like you talked about. I think that is, that's really convicting to think about. And you know, you had told me, Mark, that you would ask what I think. And I think everything that you said was really helpful in thinking about that. You know, your heart, mind and soul, because they are all interconnected. God made us a body, mind and soul. But I think that often when we're experiencing burnout, other people around us notice it before we name it and claim it. And you know, your kids kind of start to shrink away from you a little bit. They start to maybe hide in their room a little bit more. Maybe your staff hides in their church offices a little bit more like, oh, let's just. That's kind of a little easily triggered there. Let's just kind of give that some space. And if they say something about it, then what I see is that the person who's being called out is like, offended. You know, how could you say that about me? You don't support me. Rather than really stopping and recognizing that. Mark, I think all of us can imagine that, you know, you've probably been in that situation where you're just kind of grumping around the kitchen or slamming things around and, and somebody in your family says, what are you angry about? And you're like, I'm not angry. And then if you stop and realize it, you're like, I am angry. And you have described Sabbath as a leadership discipline. How do we accept accountability from other people as leaders, leaders of our family leaders, leaders of our church, to see that, hey, we are, we are burning out. And even more than that, how do we be proactive in seeking Sabbath before that, those friction points, those tension points start to hit.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, well, you know, creating boundaries is the obvious answer. and, and much easier for us to talk about than to do. But if we don't have someone holding us account for those boundaries, then they're just simply great ideas or whiteboard moments where like, you know, maybe write an article about it, but they're just ideas until we verbalize them, until we formalize them somehow. And everyone would have a different way of, of applying that. But in, in my life, the, you know, I, I have a team, a small team that helps me know when to say yes, or when to wait and maybe say yes later or, or, or say no. This is not a fit.
Dr. Mark Dance says his team consists of Jesus and Janet
And the chairman of that committee is. My wife. Is.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I love her.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah. So, so basically my little team is Jesus and Janet. And those are, those are the, that's my king and queen right there. And I run everything by them. Now, I haven't always done that. And so when somebody says, are you Busy on, June 28th at 4:00'?
Jeff Chamblee: Clock?
Dr. Mark Dance: Well, that's not, that's not enough information, you know, or are you available? Are you preaching anywhere on this Sunday? Or are you, can you write that? And so what I've, I've learned to do is to, not just stall, but to be more intentional about my, my yeses and my boundaries. And again, it's a discipleship opportunity to, to explain. Well, let me get back to you on this. I want to talk to my team and I'll tell them, you know, Jesus,
Dr. Jessica Peck: your king and queen.
Dr. Mark Dance: Accountability. I have, yeah. My king and queen is this, this is my first love and my second Love, you know, these are. These are my top two covenants. And nobody wants to. Nobody wants me to succeed, more than they do. And m. They're also the ones that I have to put in my calendar so I can talk about Jesus and Janet. But if, if they're not on my calendar, then again, there's another whiteboard idea or blog post. But, so how I do that. And again, everyone's context is different. if you're, if you're a mother of preschoolers right now, don't, don't tune us out, because I know you're going to have to do Sabbath differently. All right? We know that. Don't feel guilty, right? Don't let somebody say, hey, you need to have a date every single week, and you've got two, three preschoolers, okay? You do it once a month, and you are a rock star. You're good, you know? Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. And, so. But for me, I, I had this, My boundaries are pretty simple. I don't have breakfast meetings. My first love is Jesus. I start every day with him, and I don't need to rush past the throne of God. every day. I don't do anybody any good, if I haven't walked with him first. And, and then after, usually after work. For me, my first conversation, a real conversation, uninterrupted by people or devices, is with Janet. she's, she's not a morning person. So, Jesus, the only one, wants to talk to me anyway in the morning, and then in the, in the evening, she gets the best of my attention. And I learned that at 6 o'. Clock. We usually eat at 6 o', clock, whether we eat out or eat at home. Most time we eat at home. And that's my cutoff point. I. I'm not trying to change the world after 6pm for one. I'm a morning person. So I don't, you know, my melatonin kicks in fast and I, I'm useless anyway. And so that starts the Sabbath cycle for me. I can. I'm, gonna run hard from six to six. But then after six, man, I'm out.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I have more questions about this. Listen, the book is called Rest well, Lead well why Sabbath Matters to Your Ministry by Mark Dance. And I got more questions when we come back and we'll talk more about how to lead a family that flourishes under rest. It's countercultural, but it's what we're called to do. We'll be right back.
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Perfectly by Micah Tyler: I would be perfect if it wasn't for the little ways I, fall short every day of my life. I would be perfect if it wasn't for the million things that I never can seem to get right? But I got this peace inside? Cause I know that every time I give you failures? And you give me grace? All of my problems don't push you away? And somehow you love somebody like me? Don't know how you do it? But you do it perfectly? You do it perfectly?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Perfectly by Micah Tyler. And in a world full of social media, I think we feel pressured to do everything perfectly, even rest well. And you see, there's actually rising marketing forces that are converging on the sleep field. You've got mattresses, you've got supplements, you've got sleep trackers, you've got all kinds of things that are looking at sleep. But really what we're talking about today is, is taking Sabbath is the habit of Sabbath. I'm talking to Dr. Mark Dance about his new book, Rest well, Lead well. Why Sabbath matters to your ministry. And in this world that awards busyness is a badge of honor where we're all running at the speed of a smartphone. We feel guilty for any moment that we might not be doing anything. And then you fill the void with doom scrolling or some sort of electronic entertainment. We've got to be more intentional about resting. And Mark, right before the break, you were giving us some great advice about the king and queen of your life. That would be Jesus and Janet, which I will never forget your wife, who have say into your schedule. And as you were talking, it made me think about the fact that, you know, we are made body, mind and soul, and we only have a finite amount of time and energy. Everybody has the same time in the day. Everybody has a finite amount of physical, mental, spiritual, emotional energy. And when you over commit your time or your energy, somebody else in your circle is going to pay for that. Those things are are often expensive emotionally or time wise. They're expensive. And so that's a question that I've learned to ask myself is okay, if I say yes to this, who's going to pay the cost of it? Is it going to cost my family something? Are they going to miss out on time with me? Because I'm going to need more time than I think or more emotional energy and I'll come home exhausted. And those boundaries are really important. You talked about boundaries and really you described the Sabbath as more. You know, we talk about this elusive pursuit of work life balance and all of that. Like, right, that's what everybody wants. We want the work life balance. But you have suggested that a rhythm is more realistic. How do we take all those things that we've talked about and really pursue a realistic, healthy rhythm of Sabbath?
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, you know, balance. Balance is a bit of a popular word, but it's, it's, it's not, it's not real. Yeah, it's a lie.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It is.
Dr. Mark Dance: It's a pipe dream. Yeah. Well, the fact is you'll feel even more guilty, when you face an inevitable crisis. Right? When, when because you're going to, at work or home, your parents, your kids, your spouse, somebody's going to need you in a certain time. And that's that's important to be present. Jesus went through those same sprints. That's why he was asleep in the boat during the storm, because he was tired. If you look at his schedule before a few verses before that, his cousin was beheaded, fed a bunch of people. You know, it's like, you know, they got so busy that they didn't even take time to eat. And we, we will have those, their sprints. If your life's always a sprint, then that's not really a sprint anymore. It's a lifestyle. And so we can change rhythms in that, you know, like, because the rhythm is, is a pattern that, that adjusts. And so when, when you have as a norm in your, in your week, a time to stop, even if it doesn't happen at the same time every week. The fact is you sewn it into your life just like God's put it into the fabric of our DNA. And to work hard and to stop. Work hard and to stop. He's also sewn it into the fabric of our day. we can't go without sleep. And, you know, some people say I only need, four or five hours of sleep. Well, nobody that's been to medical school told them that. Right? There's nobody with superhero DNA that only needs four or five hours sleep. No, we all need seven, eight hours of sleep. We all need rest. We all need food. We all need people in our lives. We all need Jesus. And so there's some universal things that we can. We can build our life around and build a rhythm to where it's not, where it's normal to stop.
Dr. Mark Dance: Turn your cell phone off when you're not working
You mentioned something very important earlier that, you know, embrace boredom sometimes, you being bored, your kids being bored, there's nothing to do with. They're going to have to be creative. It's like, that's. That's where a lot of creative ideas come from. It's where a lot of connection happens. And so part of what rhythm looks like in my life is that I have to disconnect before I can connect. And so I don't walk into the house on a phone call. you know, I don't take messages. I don't return messages after six that aren't a real emergency. And by the way, church members are the worst at defining what a real emergency is. You know, you're not wrong. Yeah, I was like, come on it. And, one of the best ways that I create rhythm is, on the nights, weekends, especially vacations. And this is pretty radical. I know it's scarred. Hard to believe this, but, I started practicing it some years ago is that I will turn my phone on airplane mode when I'm not working. And pastors go into panic when they hear that because someone, you know, a donkey might end up in the ditch. An oxen in the. You know, it's like, listen, if. If there's always a donkey in the ditch, you're the donkey. Okay, but, but, but what I've told the people in my life is that, if there is a real emergency, this is Janet's cell phone number. And it. Janet's cell phone's always on. So whether I'm out of town or it's on the night or a weekend or in the middle of the night, if there's a real emergency, call Janet's cell phone. Now you're already thinking it. There are. Naturally, they're going to think two, three, four times before they called Janet's cell phone to get me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah.
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah. So all you're doing is just making sure you know that because it, it is, and it takes a little bit of courage and faith to turn your cell phone off. And whether it's your phone or tablet or whatever, there's so many ways to reach us right now, and we feel compelled to just get back to people right away. And that's just not normal. It's not natural. It's not how God wired us. It's not what he modeled in scripture and taught us. It says Sabbath is a clear cease and desist order that was originally, enforced by the death penalty in Sinai, desert. This shows you how serious God is about still. It's still in the, it's still in the Ten Commandments. And yet it's more than just a command. Just, it's, it is also a gift. Right? It is, is something that Isaiah calls, three times. He calls it Sabbath, a delight. So, you know, when, when people want, the, the people in your life who want to connect with you and the people that need something from you, you, you, you have to discern whether they're calling Dr. Peck or they're calling Jessica. Right?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah.
Dr. Mark Dance: And, and whether this, this is a real emergency. Yeah. Because then there's, part of the rhythm is how many people am I, giving to and how many people are pouring into me and having some, relevant, you know, some balance there as well.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're throwing some truth bombs here, Mark. And you speak with, but you speak with such confidence. And it's a little sad to me that, you know, that would be considered radical. It's like having healthy boundaries that we had. And actually this is a great preview of the show that I'm going to do on Friday where we're talking about tech tracking and tracking, how many notifications are actually pulling you away and burning you out. But this comes from a real personal place for you, Mark, and I appreciate you sharing your own personal story. And that definitely has a way of changing you and giving you a different perspective to speak from that lived experience.
Can you share a little bit about your experience with burnout?
Can you share a little bit about your own experience with burnout and how it made you so passionate about these boundaries and following the biblical mandate for Sabbath?
Dr. Mark Dance: Yeah, happy to. Well, when I, when I first started, in ministry almost 40 years ago as a young pastor, my first year as a pastor, I was also married that year. I was taking seminary classes, including second year Greek and so it was a very hard year. It was the first time, my first year ministry, the first time I realized I didn't have a cape you know, and I, I was just ignoring the Sabbath. I thought that was people that were old or lazy, and. And then 20 years. But ministry was rewarding and fulfilling and I got, I got some rhythm. And until, about 20 years ago, or between, 15, 20 years ago, it was the middle of a relocation, pastoring this, this thriving church. The church was growing. we, we moved from 5 acre to 50 acre, property. And we're going to keep both, to do ministry. And But I just, I completely ran out of gas. I was that overwhelmed guy and also the driven guy who just thought, hey, you know, I'm just going to, you know, for the kingdom. And you know, I just had a, A little, Overvalued my, My role in the, in the advance of the gospel, I guess. So the warning signs came. The warning signs of that you mentioned, and I've mentioned, the erosion in relationships, the people avoiding and me avoiding them. And no meltdowns, or train wrecks. But I, was just. I was different. Like not for a few days or weeks, but for months. I was not the same person. decisions that used to come natural, were very hard. sleeping was hard. Eating was hard. I'm 6:1. I weighed 167 pounds. I could not gain weight. I didn't know why. And I could still do because pastors have an on button. I could still turn it on and smile and preach and just. But, So I did something radical for a caregiver. I asked for help. I reached out to my family doctor and I said, something's different about me. I don't know what it is. And so he asked me a bunch of questions. Questions that your doctor would ask you, that a, mental health professional would ask you, which, Ah, what are you thinking? How are you thinking? What are you eating, sleeping, all these things. I don't remember all the questions. And he just. Yeah, yeah. And he knew me well because he was a member of my church and we've been on a couple of mission trips together. And so. Yeah, and so he said, this is very normal for a driven guy in your early 40s. And so he diagnosed me very casually, has been, clinically depressed. And so I said, well, I actually don't. I don't have time for that, but if you get anything else, I'm open to it, you know. And so anyway, within a week of, that diagnosis, a licensed therapist that was new to our church, that didn't know very well she Said appointment came to my office and she only had two questions. do you know that you're clinically depressed and are you taking anything for it? And I said, yes, ma', am, I do. And she said, oh good. I said, well, I just found out last week, you know, she said, are you taking anything for it? And I said, well, yeah, I picked something up Wednesday. I don't know if it works or not, but I said, hey, would you mind meeting my doctor? You guys kind of become part of my dance team here. And, and so they, they got together and a couple of, my leaders in my church became, that the advocates for me that helped me get healthy again. And I did, I listened to what they said. I went to that counselor, that therapist for five years until I moved to Nashville to start Lifeway Pastors. I met with her, every month even, and I took that. I needed that medication for almost a year until the doctor said I didn't, because I'd burned through my serotonin. And I learned a lot about mental health and my own physical health and just self care and, and. But I'd stop stopping. In my case, I, I didn't inherit depression. I know that, that there's different kinds of, you know, of depression just like there's different kinds of cancer. So I'm not encouraging anybody to self diagnose, but if, if people would care for you, I mean, if you'll ask for help, people listen to the people that are called to and prepared to help you because they're, they're rooting for you. And so in my case, my burnout left untreated, evolved or devolved into a season of clinical depression that lasted probably, four years. And I did become, I did get the old Mark back, which I think everybody was happy about that. But it wasn't overnight, it wasn't easy. And I had to reset my rhythm so that I, I started stopping again, and taking care of myself better. And I became, continued pastoring there. We finished a relocation and I'm now a member of the church. I used to pastor.
Dr. Jessica Peck: So I love that. What a great way to end our time together and such a challenge for people out there listening. Maybe this is your moment that you need to reach out for help and go to your primary healthcare provider. I say that all the time. Or get a copy of Rest well, lead well. Mark. Thank you for your transparency and your grace and sharing hope with us. I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Mark Dance, Executive Director, Arkansas Baptist State Convention: Rest Well Lead Well: Why Sabbath Matters to Your Ministry
https://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/contributors/mark-dance/
Chapters:
(00:00) American Family Radio thanks sponsor, Preborn for supporting pro life advocacy
(00:44) Every family struggles with exhaustion
(01:49) Now, recent research shows that more than half of pastors say their role is often overwhelming
(03:54) Mark came to know the Lord at a camp when he was 15
(05:55) Christian leaders believe exhaustion comes with the territory
(10:01) Paul tells Timothy to pay attention to his life and to his teaching
(15:17) An ultrasound provided by preborn helped Candace hear her unborn baby's heartbeat
(17:46) Dr. Mark Dance talks about ways that culture rewards exhaustion in ministry
(21:01) What do you think are early warning signs that you're running at an unsustainable pace?
(29:46) Dr. Mark Dance says his team consists of Jesus and Janet
(40:02) Dr. Mark Dance: Turn your cell phone off when you're not working
(44:00) Can you share a little bit about your experience with burnout?
(50:24) Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
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