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Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, preborn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial  pound250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome, welcome, welcome. We're at another Monday. I hope your Monday is going well, wherever you are, whatever you are doing in May. We are talking about an issue that I am hearing about all over the place. Really. It feels like everybody in church culture, everybody in, you know, in college culture, we're seeing a lot of conversations just in every area that I am. And you're thinking, what in the world is this? I am talking about singleness, about being single, about living single, unmarried. We are living in a moment where marriage is often treated as the finish line of adulthood. You know, you graduate from high school and then you go to college. College or maybe enter the workforce. And then when you get married, that's when you have really arrived. And singleness is seen as kind of a temporary state. Like you're just waiting to meet the right person or you're incomplete. Like your life is incomplete until that moment. And church culture can unintentionally center married life as kind of the norm. As the norm. That's. That's what it is in the church and many single adults. This is where I'm hearing from those single, single adults. I have talked with so many in the last few months, I cannot even tell you, who feel really unseen and feel misunderstood even in faith communities. Now. At the same time, we see more adults who are single than in previous generations. I do believe that Covid had a lot to do with this. I see that singleness spans decades. It's not just seasons. And identity is often confused with relationship status. And we know that from social media because that's how it sets it up, is your identity. Identity is right there in your relationship status. So we're talking to somebody today. We're talking to Doug Hankins. He wrote a book called Still Sting, Still Single, still called A Guide for Christian Singles and those who Love Him. And he offers a reframing in this, that singleness is not a problem to solve. It is not a spiritual holding pattern. It is a m meaningful way of living a life called in Christ. Now, Doug Hankins is senior pastor at First Baptist Church in Winter Park, Florida. He's an associate professor at the Baptist University of Florida, has a PhD from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and he's a longtime pastor to single adults and brings some theological depth, some pastoral experience, and decades of listening to real stories.

Doug Hankins is writing a book about singleness and I am talking about it

Now, before we begin today's conversation and I bring Doug in, I want to name something right up front. There's an irony here that this, that Doug is a married man writing a book about singleness and I am a married woman talking about it. But that matters because sometimes it. The voices in the conversation that we really don't hear talking are, not just those who have lived the experience, but those who have listened long enough and pastored long enough and cared long enough to see what others miss. And what I hear from singles a lot is saying, I wish that other people would know this, I wish they would stop saying this or start saying this. But sometimes they just don't feel like they're in a position to call that out. Well, I feel like I'm going to call that out today. And so we're going to talk about this and how we can really love people who are single and our in our lives really. Well, Doug, welcome. I'm so glad to have you here.

Doug Hankins: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Doug, this is. This really. It can be a sensitive subject to talk about because there is so much social pressure around this. You know, when kids go off to college and they come back, it's like, are you dating someone? Did you find somebody yet? Are you interested in someone? Have you gotten married yet? Are you planning to get married? Like, do you ever want to get married? Like, just this inquisition starts and it can really be kind of off putting.

You write a book about helping single people find churches that are equipped

So let's start at the beginning with you. Tell us why God put this on your heart to write this message.

Doug Hankins: Well, I have a lot of single people in my life. My, wife and I were involved in college and young adult ministry for two decades. And we saw many of our friends grow up and they didn't check all the milestones like some of us did. Getting married, having kids, buying a house, etc. And I watched as they sort of, they, they sort of flailed in their local churches. Their churches didn't have a place for them. And we tried to be part of churches that created spaces for single adults. Who, think they matter. But I watched a lot of my friends struggle to find places like that. And the first point of tension for me was, to ask the theological question, wait a second, wasn't Jesus single as a 30 something? And if he showed up at our churches and was treated, you know, walked in as a single person, would he be treated this way? So, that was the first thing. And then the second thing was just talking to our single friends, hearing their stories of heartbreak and frustration and sometimes trying to give them advice from a city away or a state away. And you know, occasionally in our young adult ministry or any. Anytime I preached, I would talk about the issue of singleness in First Corinthians 7. And I would have people come up to me and say, oh, that's a great message. I wish everybody heard that. And so finally I just decided I need to put this in a book. And in part, like you said, be a married adult pastor with kids who can speak on behalf of my single friends. I'm just kind of cosplaying what they are telling me. And I want to make sure that we can just insert this into the conversation because I really believe the church is the hope of the world. And I think a lot of us in church life just need to understand what our single friends are facing and make the necessary adjustments. So we don't treat them the same way we might treat Jesus, where although we ask him into our hearts, we don't invite him into our living room, we don't invite him into our dinner table. so that's real. The pastoral burden comes from.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And I think the pastoral burden is justified because we do see increasing singleness. We see, you know, this generation who is waiting longer to get married. But I see a lot of people who do want to get married and feel like they just haven't met the right person and God hasn't brought that into their life. And there's other people who are perfectly content, but regardless of wherever they are in that, where they're single and they're content or their discontent, they, the what you said is, is really kind of a hard truth that sometimes when they come into the church we say, oh, we have a singles ministry. But really the whole purpose of the singles ministry is to help you not be single. Like that's kind of what it feels like, you know, like that's the problem. Yes, like that's the problem exactly. Like, okay, the whole goal is to graduate you from this. What have you seen? And, let's just Call it out like it is, like you said, speak on behalf of people that young people that have talked to us. What are things that the church is well intentioned, but perhaps ill equipped for? Singles ministry. What are mistakes that we're making as a church?

Doug Hankins: Great question. The first big one is to recognize Genesis 2 and 1 Corinthians 7 and what they say and don't say, and in particular, I think what they say is that the pro. There is a problem here, but it's not singleness. The problem here is loneliness. And so because that's the problem, the solution for loneliness is the same. It's community. We've got to step into community, away from our isolation. And so in Genesis, God creates, a helper. And in this case it is both community and a marriage. But as you get to the NewSong Testament, Paul says, I wish everybody was as I am, single as Jesus was. And so the problem here is loneliness. The solution is community. The problem is not singleness. The solution is not marriage. And if we can separate those ideas, then I think that puts church people in position to say, oh, you're single, I want to make sure you're not lonely. Because of all the words we associate with singleness, loneliness is often the most common one. I want to make sure you're not lonely. I, want to make sure you have friends. Do you have a place to be over holidays? Do you have a place to be tonight? Is there anything we can do to help you? Rather than try to drive people to a singles class, bring them to your class, bring them to your home, you know, let save a seat for them at church. Single people are like all of us. We just want to have safe friends. But what single people don't have is at times a built in community network in the form of a mate or in the form of a family. And so I think churches would do well to, prioritize community. And so in the book I talk about this, prioritizing community over matrimony. the healthiest people are the ones we want to get married. And community is what makes us healthy. And so even if marriage is the long term goal, community is going to be that intermediate goal to help you get there. So I think churches would do well to embrace the idea of community and really make room in their lives and in their pews and in their Sunday school spaces for their single friends. That's probably the big one.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I would say up front, that's a really helpful paradigm shift. It's looking at the solution is not get married the solution is community. The solution for loneliness is community. And, and you know, sometimes what I see, Doug, is that singles ministries are very isolated from the church. Now this isn't just isolated to singles ministry. Sometimes you have that very siloed approach where the kids have the kids ministry, the youth has the youth ministry, the singles have the singles ministry. But you're really talking about integration and intergenerational families, which is something I know that, that is, is really appealing. I, I remember, you know, my daughter telling me and going to college when she had gone to a church. One of the things she said she missed about going to a college church, a chur, mostly college students, was not seeing the families, not seeing, you know, grandparents and little kids come in with their pictures from Sunday school and just feeling like you're part of a family. It kind of felt like, you know, everywhere else, like that it was college. What are things that churches can do to create that more integrated approach where it's not just, oh, okay, you're single. that's, that's that way, that's down the hall, that's, you know, that event. But really integrate them more holistically into the church life.

Doug Hankins: Well, I'm a fan of the phrase that one on one is how it's done. One on one is how ministry is done. When Jesus wanted to develop somebody, he met one on one with them. Paul, says in second Timothy two, two, you know, what you've seen and heard in me pass on to other people, in 1 Corinthians 11, one imitate me as I imitate Christ. So so much about our relation, relationships, so much about our discipleship and our Christian community is about relationships, I should say. And so I think the more you can break down community to one on one relationships, the better. Or two on two or three on three.

Practicing active listening in small groups can help build community in churches

the math is, not mathing there, but in smaller groups, I, think also there's a key skill that we've lost. It's the lost art and it's the lost art of active listening. Do you know what I mean by this? Where I'm not just waiting for you to talk, I'm actively listening. And if I don't understand, I'm asking questions, I'm giving myself permission to be curious. A lot of times in our age graded approach, which is a really great approach by the way, but a lot of times in this age graded approach to small groups and other things, what we miss out on is the opportunity to regularly be around people who are on different Life stages or, come from different cultures who, have different ways of thinking, and so keeps us from developing that skill of active listening. I'm not really sure where you're coming from, older gentlemen, but rather than judge you and dismiss you and go hang out with my friends, I'm going to stop and say, well, what makes you tick, right? What makes you think that way? And so I think churches, by embracing relationality, by embracing curiosity, and by practicing active listening, could really be a place where not just singles are welcome, but everyone's welcome. And I'll even add this oftentimes how churches treat single people is how they treat everybody. And so if churches won't make room for single people, that's generally a cue or, a signal that they won't really welcome anybody who varies from the norm of what's expected, which is a married couple with 2.3 kids who are coming in and they know how to tithe and they know how to support. And so I think embracing the singles and the people who are a little bit different in your church who maybe don't fit the status quo is. Is. Is God's gift to us to help us become the kind of place where true community can flourish.

 Sometimes people's curiosity can lead to intrusive questions

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, you talked about, you mentioned curiosity, and I think, you know, and that was funny because the way that you, you posed it, it's like, yeah, that's a filtered version of what's going on in their brain. But, yeah, they, they're wanting to know, to engage in that conversation. And we're coming up on our first break, Doug, But I think when we come back, I want to talk about how we can have healthy curiosity and what we should be curious about and what we shouldn't be curious about. Because sometimes what I see and hear from people who are single is that that curiosity sometimes can wander into feeling maybe nosy and sometimes just downright intrusive and asking questions. And I think that we can reframe the way that we are asking questions instead of just asking yes or no questions or closed questions or questions that are really designed to get the kind of information that we need and to help them. And I think this goes back to what you're talking about, Doug, with active listening. So sometimes we're like, oh, okay, single person. Ok, how old are you? Are you working? Do you live here? Like, how are you in a relationship? You know, what kind of guy do you like? Like, just tell me everything so that I can already spin up my matchmaking service and I can have three days lined up for you. And I can tell you exactly what you need to do to do this. And I think that if we treated, you know, people more holistically and didn't focus on that, sometimes I think there's just a hyper focus on that and they feel like that's their identity is that I'm single instead of, you know, I'm an engineer, I'm a writer or I'm, you know, whatever. I'm, I'm a daughter, I'm a granddaughter. Like, look, I'm a daughter of God, you know, that I think that looking at their holistic identity would be so much more helpful. When we come back, we'll talk about true belonging in the church and really talking about affirming Christian singles living a life of purpose. And we'll talk about, about some biblical or historical figures that maybe help Doug rethink how he thought about this. We'll be right back with Doug Hankins after this break. Mother's Day is one of the most beautiful moments of the year to share life changing news. Maybe you've seen it, a family gathered around the table. When someone stands up and says next year there will be a brand new mom in our family, there's nothing like it. But for some women, Mother's Day feels very different. Instead of celebrating, they're carrying a secret. Afraid, unsure, alone. That's why preborn exists, because when a woman sees her baby on an ultrasound and hears that tiny heartbeat, it doubles the chance she'll choose life. I couldn't imagine my life without him because of them. He's here. We're gonna get through it and it's gonna be okay. Preborn empowers women to become mothers. Just 28 dollars provides one ultrasound. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250, baby. Or donate [email protected]/AFR, that's preborn.com/AFR

Jesus, Son Of God by Brandon Heath: You came down from heaven's throne. This earth you form was not your home. A love like this. The world had never known. A crown of thorns to mock your name. Forgiveness fell upon your face. A love like this the world had never known. On the altar of our praise. Let there be no higher name. Jesus, son of God. You lay down your perfect life. You are the sacrifice. Jesus, son of God. You are Jesus, son m of God.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is Jesus, son of God by Brandon Heath. And hey, I'm so glad you've joined us here on this Monday.

Doug Hankins is reframing singleness as a valid calling

We are talking about something that I am seen talked about in so many churches across the country. We're talking about being single and having a singles ministry and what it means to be single and how we support people who are single just like we support people who are married. We're talking to Doug Hankins, the author of Still Singled, Still Called A Guide for Christian Singles and those who Love Them. And Doug is reframing singleness as a valid calling, not a deficiency or a problem that needs to be said to be fixed. It's a present tense identity in Christ, not a waiting season. It is a life that is already meaningful, not waiting to become meaningful after you get married. And he challenges some assumptions that we probably wouldn't say that we had. But if we're really honest, we do hold that the best way to include a single person is to fix them up and help them get married. And it shapes how we treat people, how we welcome and invite them into church communities, into friendships and family expectations and mentoring relationships. And really, Doug and I are talking today about some of the cultural beliefs that says that, hey, you don't really arrive in life in the American dream until you're married and that if you're single, you're some degree incomplete or your, your life is not yet fully formed. And that is not the case. And so he's talking about how do we help cultivate true belonging in the church? And he draws from scripture and church history and lived experience as a singles pastor to talk about how single believers are fully part of God's family. And that may seem really like, yeah, of course they are. But we need to say it because I think that there are a lot of people who don't feel that way. I think about one, after one particular church service, the pastor had mentioned specifically singleness in the end the sermon and talked about how that was a valid calling. And I saw one single person talking about how that really moves them, that he felt seen, like something that seemed so simple needed to be said out loud. And so, Doug, let's talk a little bit about this because you, you did some research. Tell us about some biblical or historical figures that helped you rethink this, how God sees and values singleness.

Doug Hankins: Well, there's a gentleman who was a Catholic teaching deacon, during the Middle Ages in the Netherlands named Gert Groot.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Gert Groot. I like I am Groot the Great.

Doug Hankins: It would be how we would talk about them now.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay, I think I'll go with that.

Doug Hankins: Yeah. If you have any more kids, Gertrude, I'd recommend Them as a name or grandkids.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay.

Doug Hankins: he's a Catholic teaching deacon and he begins teaching on the necessity of imitating Christ in your life. And the church at the time thought that was too radical. So they removed his privileges and basically put a censure on him. He lived next door to his sister who was also single. And he basically couldn't do any ministry for a while. And so they noticed that there were all these little kids, orphans basically, living in their community in Utrecht. And so he decided that they would connect their houses and form basically a little orphanage. And he would teach them how to imitate Christ from Scripture. And he developed a system of educating them and created what's thought of as one of the first education systems in Europe. And the system he creates grows into the education system of the, of Europe, which is the humanism. And Martin Luther and John Calvin likely go through a very similar system as they, are educated into their professions. But at the core of this teaching was the imitation of Christ. He had a student who came along much later, Thomas A. Kempis, who wrote the Imitation of Christ. And Gert Groot didn't let his singleness hold him back at all from living a full life. He had, important ministry. He and his sister both were single people and that, that just didn't seem to factor in to what God called them to do. and I, I think he made an important impact on church history on the American side. I would talk about Henrietta Mears, and you no doubt know who Henrietta Mears is, who was in 1955 the leader of the largest children's Sunday school class in the world, at Hollywood Presbyterian Church. Single lady from Minnesota all her life. Never got married, but, revolutionized and innovated in Sunday school. And one of her big innovations was bringing in college students, teaching them the Bible and training them to be Sunday school teachers for these little kids. She got all the students at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles to come teach these kids the Bible. And her Sunday school class grew into the thousands and grew so big they had to build extra education buildings just for the kids. Sunday school. The kids Sunday school outpaced the adult population of, Hollywood Presbyterian. Again, a single lady all her life, mentored Billy Graham and Bill Bright and Dawson Trotman and all of those great post war evangelical leaders. And so I think those are but two data points. There's a third historical figure named Jesus and one named Paul. And they, they did a pretty good job with, Christianity. And so I just think, the Idea that you have to be married in order to really make an impact in the kingdom is not found in scripture. It's not found in church history. Marriage is a really important thing, and the Bible is clear on that. But singleness is not unimportant by comparison. And I think it would do the church well to just take that in, absorb it, take a breath, and kind of reorient herself to the valuable role that singles bring to our congregational life.

49% of the US population is single according to the latest census

Dr. Jessica Peck: So what are ways that you think that churches communicate this to singles, though, that. That. Not overtly, but subliminally, that subtly, that just kind of undercurrent of expectation. What are ways that you see churches making that, you know, conveying that message without being intentional about it?

Doug Hankins: Yeah, well, it starts at the top. I think pastors and church leaders, would do well to just understand that singleness, again, is not a problem that needs to be solved. It's a unique season of life, and you can, just as Jesus did, you can serve God fully, live a full life, and contribute to the church and bring beautiful gifts into the world as a single person. I think if you can embrace that, then, your church is open to a wonderful world of possibilities. Just again, practically, as of the latest census, 49% of the US population is single. And if you're in a major urban metro area, it's probably at least 50%, if not more. So simply by making room for single people, in your mental model, making room for single people in your pews and in your seats, you are reaching half the mission field. Right. And I think probably it goes beyond that, which is, as God leads, you know, bringing single people into every area of the organization, on leadership, on staff, on stage, in the choir, musicians, and understanding this is not just young single people. This is old single people. This is widows, this is people who've been divorced, who are single again. this is all kinds of folks. And so just making a concerted effort as a leader to not code to your people that being married is the only way you can make an impact here, that it's not some hurdle you have to jump over, that everybody, regardless of marital status, has a place to contribute here, is, I think, in your messaging, in your structure, in, your own relationships. I think leaders would do well as they start small groups to make sure that they involve single people not only in their population, but in leadership. and so, these are ways, I think churches could, strategies for churches to use today.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, you remind me of, of A dear lady that I went to church with for a really long time. And she had been married for a long time, and her husband passed away. And one day I saw her walking in the parking lot after church. And she was walking, across to her car. And I caught up with her and asked her how she was doing. And as she looked at me, Doug, she had tears in her eyes. She was crying as she was walking through the parking lot. I had no idea, because I was approaching her from behind. And I said, what? What.

Dr. Jessica Peck: What's wrong? And she said, I'm, sorry. She said, you know, she apologized, which she shouldn't have, but she felt obligated to do. She said I'd caught her in a vulnerable moment. And she said, you know, leaving church is one of the hardest things that I do every single week. Because I'm used to leaving church with my husband, and I have to leave church alone. And I look around and I see all of the families who are leaving, who are going to lunch together, who have all the kids going in. And she said, for whatever reason, the walk from the church to my car just always feels like the longest walk I take every week. And that stuck with me. I mean, that really stuck with me. And it raised my eyes to look as I was leaving church, you know, not just thinking about, like, my own stage of life. Like, I gotta get my four kids in the minivan, and, you know, what am I gonna feed them for lunch? And please, Lord, let some of them take a nap this afternoon. You know, I'm thinking those kinds of things. Things. But how great to have, you know, somebody come in to that family rather than go and, you know, heat up a TV dinner on their own. And, you know, we were talking earlier, before the break, Doug, about communication that we have, that that's unintentional. What if single people told you that other people have said to them that's been hurtful? Do you have any examples of that? Of things that we can learn from the things that we didn't intend to be hurtful? But that can be, you know, offensive if. If you haven't. If you haven't walked that path, if you don't know what that feels like.

Doug Hankins: Yeah, I think. Let me just say this, leading with marital status in your questions. When someone shows up, if they're single and you go, you look behind them, is your spouse coming? Presuming that everyone is married is probably the big one. because it communicates two things. Number one, you're not fully welcomed unless you're Married. And number two, you're not fully whole unless you're married. and so I would say just in general, maybe it's safer to presume that everybody is single than to presume that everybody is married. the second thing, especially if they're younger, just to ask, hey, are you dating anyone? That's one that, there's an equivalent here. So when students are in high school, especially as they hit 17, 18, every well meaning adult comes up and says, okay, so what are your college plans? Which presumes that they're going to go to college. And not every student has a college plans. And it puts social pressure on them. It communicates you're not fully welcome and you're not fully valued unless you have a college plan. What if you're going into military? Do you feel like a second class person because you're going to military? Military has been historically a great way to prepare young people. So I won't get on that rant. What I'll just say is, I think again, there are these American milestones. So just kind of let me be a professor here. There are five American milestones that typically indicate people are growing up. You know, they complete school, they get a job, they become financially independent, they get married, they have kids. We may even add in, they add a house. That's the sixth one. So I think Americans are on solid ground asking people about those big five, because that's what has been true for the past 50 to 70 years. So I think what I would say is let's all take a step back and consider that perhaps that's not as true anymore. Universally, we are not living in a monoculture where everybody sort of has the same upbringing and same life. we have an incredibly diverse population that makes up the United States right now. And so taking a minute to pause and be curious and ask questions, to get to know somebody and let them tell you their story on their own without presuming that maybe they're trying to achieve these same categories is just a generally a good approach to life. And again, I'm not saying that people who ask about marriage or college are, are wrong in any way, but I just think you have to be prepared for the fact that more and more people are not going to have those answers ready to go. And that's okay. It's the opportunity we have right now to love the mission field in front of us.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, we just had Mother's Day yesterday. And the same can be true for asking married couples if they have children. You Know, just saying, do you have children? And then if the answer is yes or no, you know, yes, you can tell about, you know, how old are they and what are they doing? No, it's always the, the follow up is why. And I think, you know, that that is, that can be painful. And here. So let me let you into my professor mind a little bit and a little, communication tool that we use in nursing. This can be a phrase that can revolutionize your conversation. And now that you know, I, and now that my family knows that I use this as a nurse, they're like, oh, that's nurse speak. I'm like, yes, it is, and I'm very proud of it. So instead of asking yes or no questions like, are you married? Do you have kids? You know, do you, where are you going to college? Like, those are very closed ended questions. Here's the phrase, Doug, tell me about. That's the phrase tell me about. So if you have a single person, you don't know if they're married or not, hey, tell me about your family. Then that leaves it very open ended. They could tell you, oh, I'm married, I have my husband or, oh, you know, my parents live so. And live so so somewhere or that kind of thing, but I have a work family that's here and taking care of me. Or you say, tell me about your future plans. Oh, well, I'm going to school, I'm going to community college, I'm going to join the workforce automatically. Because I think that what happens is when we ask them that questions, they know what the answers are supposed to be. And then if they don't have that answer, then they automatically feel like they're on the back the of and they're having to explain like, okay, well, let me explain why the answer is no. And I feel like you expected it to be yes, but now I'm already starting this conversation feeling less than. So let me just give you that, that nursing phrase that will change your life. Tell me about, tell me about your family. Tell me about your future plans. Tell me about, you know, what else? here, I'll get on the soapbox. Doug, since we've been kind of hopping on and off, let's do it right. Okay. Because I, also say that, like, even in asking about, you know, tell me about your, tell me about your family. Like, tell me about your job. Because you may say, oh, what do you do? What do you do? Well, oh, I say, I'm a stay at home mom. Oh, okay. It's the same I mean, it can be applied to so many people. So the, the phrase that I use there is tell me about how you spend your days. Tell me how you spend your time. What do you, what do you spend most of your time doing? Are you retiring, tired? Are you carting kids around? Like, are you working? You're commuting? You're the nine to five. Like, tell me how you spend your time. So, you can just take that all for free. But one thing that you can get is a copy of Doug's book, Still Single, still called A Guide for Christian Singles and those who Love Him. And it is my prayer that ministry leaders will perk, open their ears and think, what can we do to best serve the singles in our church? We'll talk more about that when we come back. And my father, your great grandfather, fought in World War II. Really? He was a gunner on the big ship out in the Pacific Ocean. Wow. Your great grandmother did her part too. Was she on a ship? Oh, no, she stayed back home. She and a lot of her friends worked really hard in a factory because the men had gone off to war and they held scrap metal drives to help in the war effort. The folks back home were heroes too.

Jeff Chamblee: Here at the American Family association, we consider you the heroes back home as you fulfill your responsibility of caring for your family day to day. Your partnership with us is crucial as we fight the enemies of freedom in America. Thank you for your commitment to the, American Family Association. Grandpa, what's a scrap metal drive? Let's get some cookies and I'll tell you all about it.

One of the things that we're talking about today is welcoming singles in the church

Hold Me Jesus by Rich Mullins: Well, sometimes my life just don't make sense at all when the mountains look so big and my faith just seems so small so hold me Jesus.

Dr. Jessica Peck: welcome m back friends. That is Hold Me Jesus by Rich Mullins. And you know, he has been with the Lord for so long, but still one of my favorites and you know, my favorite top 10 of list of 142 songs that I play. But that is such a timeless truth. And when we're looking around in the world, there are a lot of things that are just seem to be off kilter. And one of the things that we're talking about today that we're trying to align is welcoming singles in the church. And I'm talking to Doug Hankins, pastor from Florida about his book called Still Single, still called A Guide for Christian Singles and those who Love Them. And we're really, really leaning into and those who Love Them. And to catch you up, some of the things that we've talked about is just integrating them into church culture. That singleness is not a problem to be fixed. Loneliness is. And we fix that with community, not marriage. And as Doug and I were talking during the break, you know, I see we have to remember this generation of young people. Although he wisely reminded us that singleness can happen at any stage of life and shouldn't be confined just to that young, post college, 20s ish kind of age range. But we have to remember that this is the generation who, when most people are going to find somebody that they're going to marry, they were in quarantine during COVID and that severely limited social interactions. It also reshaped the way that social interactions happen and people want to meet somebody. But there is just, there's a lot of curiosity. And that's what Doug and I were talking about. That can be perceived as judgment, like, okay, are you single? Why are you single? have you tried dating? Oh, you're dating online? Oh, that's really dangerous. Did you see this documentary about a serial killer who was online? It can go that way or it can go be. Why haven't you gotten online? What have you got to lose? Are you just gonna sit there forever? And we just, we are well intentioned, but we can really overstep. And before the break, I shared my nursing communication tool that I use all the time. Instead of asking those questions like, are you married? Do you have kids? I say, tell me about your family, Just tell me about your future plans, Tell me about your life, tell me about how you spend your time. And people generally will do that. Now, we have been hammering the fact that sometimes people are nosy, people are insensitive, that people can be me sometimes because I have been accused of trying to be an uninvited matchmaker a time or two. I will own up to that. But, Doug, you told me that you can talk all day about churches who are doing this well. And I think that's a direction that we should follow wholeheartedly because that we can always use some good news.

The first place I would look is a church in New York called Redeemer Presbyterian

So tell us who is doing what. Well,

Doug Hankins: great question. The first place I would look is a church in New York called Redeemer Presbyterian that was founded by Tim and Kathi Keller. And they, you know, probably 60, 70% of their church, Tim Keller just passed away. But when they were in the throes of things, probably 60% of their church were single, upwardly mobile folks living in Manhattan. And they just do such a great job integrating all those people into smaller groups. And if you ever go by the website for Redeemer? They're now broken into about five churches. you know, most of their groups are singles groups, groups full of single people. And, they organize either by affinity or by male, female, or those kind of things. And, they hosted a conference years back where they talked about this, and they, for whatever reason, had this, amazing way to integrate all people in. It was like the more they went after singles, the more everybody showed up. And again, I think that's a little bit of the canary in the coal mine for us, that there's something about going and reaching single people that, signals to everybody else that everyone's welcome. And so I think that's a church I would look at. And the pastors there are still doing a really good job. The second church, I'm sorry.

Dr. Jessica Peck: No, go ahead, go ahead.

Doug Hankins: The second church, I would point out, is less known. There's a church in Garland, Texas, which is a suburb of Dallas, called Northeast Church, and it was founded by a guy named Ronnie Worsham. And I guarantee you, none of your listeners have ever been to this church. It is the greatest church in America that nobody knows about. They are this little church that could. And they try to flow low, they fly under the radar, but they just. All they do is love people, love God and love people and make disciples of, the young adults and young professionals and singles in the Dallas Fort Worth metro. And if you ever went to one of their churches, you would probably say, this is the weirdest church service I've ever been to. Because you might sit next to an investment banker on one side and a homeless person on the next side, and they're all singing songs together and listening to the same sermon and taking communion together. And you're like, man, how do these. How does this church reach all of these people? And it's because they really take, generosity and compassion and welcoming the stranger to the fullest expression. and their pastors do a really good job of reaching people. Those are two, I would tell you I have plenty more can talk about, but those are two.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, that is always good to hear good news of people who are doing ministry well. And I know that there are so many examples of that. And even just thinking about, you know, the structural ways that people walk into the church. I mean, you know, you think about, like, sitting by yourself in the pew versus, like, dropping off the kids or having somebody just to go and to walk around you with, with, you know, all of those things and visiting. It reminds me of you know, when my kids were little, one of the things that we did, Doug, was that we made it a practice to go to church wherever we were. So if we were traveling on a Sunday, we were going to go to church wherever we were. And it's a good reminder for. It's important how your website is because that's how people find chur churches these days. They're going to look at the service times and the doctrine and all of those kinds of things. And I think it's really good experience for everybody to be an occasional visitor. We did this even when, I was a part of a search team for a pastor. One time that we were assigned, we had to go and visit five different churches just so that we could see what it felt like to be a visitor. And how do you walk in and how do you feel and how are you greeted and is there a place for you and where do you find that? You know, from the parking lot to finding your place. I think these are great reminders, not just for single people, but for any people. Just like you said to your point. But I'll let you respond to that and if you have other good examples to tell us about, I'm all ears.

Doug Hankins: No, that's, that's right. A car door to car door and really website to car door is the full car wash experience of joining a church. And so I would just affirm you and encourage church leaders from your, if you broadcast on YouTube or Facebook, to your website, to your social media, all that matters. And it matters for people who are kicking the tires on you. You may not be able to see them, they may not like and subscribe, but they're paying attention. And there are different ways you can signal that you're open for business for everybody, by who you place on there and by the language you use. So just be aware of that. But also the in person experience. Car door to card or is someone greeted? are they offered coffee or water? Are they, you know, to some point where the restrooms are, the, the signage, everything. Everything communicates, Right? Everything communicates. you know, there's a really interesting church, so I'll mention other churches that does this really well. It's one of the fastest growing churches in North America and it's in Montreal, Canada, one of the least church places in the world. And it's called La Chapelle. La Chapelle is, a Southern Baptist. I'm Southern Baptist. It's a Southern Baptist church plant. And the pastor David Pottier and his team, they have not ever owned property until this year. So they've been doing this portably the whole time of their existence. And they are reaching thousands of people and they put a premium on graphics and website and signage because aesthetics matter. a lot of people in Canada have this idea that Christians, are just those weird Catholic people who maybe did some bad things years ago and so we can't trust them. And then they show up to La Chapelle and they've got, got first rate graphic design and really good coffee and everyone has the cool black hoodies with the interesting white lettering on it. And they just look beautiful and they look amazing and they look vibrant and they look alive. And it's a stark contrast to some of the Catholic churches in Montreal that, are not that way. And it's a way that La Chapelle is able to pull in a postmodern crowd in one of the darkest cities in North America. And they're doing a really great job. I would also just point out my people, First Baptist Church of Orlando, they do a great job with this as well. Their campus is beautiful. I don't know what the dimensions are, but it's like 200 acres with a lake in the middle. And they've got a school and they've got signage and car door to car door. They just have a first rate experience and it makes people feel welcome. People feel welcome from the time they get out of their car and coming in. And if you're a single person who's been by himself or herself for all these years and you're lonely and you show up, you feel welcomed by that blue tent with the people who want to know your name and want to get your contact information. And you feel welcomed by the welcome bag, and you feel welcomed by the free T shirt and you feel welcomed by the coffee and you feel welcomed by the music and you feel welcomed by the preaching. And so those things are not unimportant. They're not everything, but they're not unimportant. They have a place.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I think this speaks to the, the importance of knowing your local community and serving in that way. Because then, you know, I see communities here where, you know, you could walk in, I, see a young person walk into a, a flashy place with all the screens and all the tech and all the lights and think, this looks like a concert that I'm going to. And so then we see young people who are drawn back to more formal ways of worship or liturgical places. And one of the great things for me, Doug, about having visited churches all over the United States with my family, is that you. You really can tell who was doing it. Well, and to me, it didn't matter about the size. Like, sometimes one of the. The warmest experiences that we had was this tiny little mountain church, just like out in the middle of now, Colorado, and there was no sound system. There was no, There weren't even words. Like, it was just basically, you knew it or you didn't. And when you sang the song and they didn't have any shared hymnals or anything, but the spirit of God was there. And I think that's one of the beautiful things, is knowing your community and being moved to serve the people who are in your community. What is going to engage them, what is going to attract them? And I think making sure that, you know, that, you know, you're communicating, hey, we care about this. This. We're invested in this with whatever capital that we have. If that's relational capital, if that's physical capital, if that's, you know, land capital, whatever it is, if it's political, social, like, whatever investment that we have, we are in this and we care about this.

 I hope churches will be more welcoming of singles in their churches

Doug, I want to know, what do you hope that people will get? What do you hope ministry leaders will get from. From reading your book? And what's one thing that you. You hope that they'll move to do to be more welcoming of singles in their church?

Doug Hankins: Great question. I hope people will feel inspired to be courageous as it relates to community. as you mentioned, the COVID thing really affected all of us. I would love to see churches triple down on community beyond the show, beyond the lights, beyond all those tools that we use, that building community together, having people you can be around, can be safe, can trust, can be developed that really matters. I hope that's a big one, or, that's maybe a big hope. The second is I just hope every church in the world will catch a vision for single adults and just make room and do whatever they have to do and go all in all chips to the middle of the table, investing in our single adults. because I think what will happen is that everybody will win when you reach singles. the singles who move into healthy community will either feel safe there and maybe not get married because they have community and they're fine, or they'll get into community, they'll become the healthiest version of themselves, and they'll get married. And either outcome is a benefit for both the single adult and for the church. And again, I think how you treat singles is how you treat everybody. And so if we can learn what we need to learn from our single friends and apologize for the things we need, to apologize the wrong assumptions and to practice compassion and curiosity, that's going to help us to be better Christians for everybody. And we're going to find that we reach everybody in the community. And that's the end goal, is giving everybody a community that they can be a part of, to enjoy God the most and love neighbor the most. that's the win for me.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, you talked earlier about some historical figures and, of course, some biblical figures. I'm wondering if there's a story from your own personal ministry in singles over a couple of decades. Is there a particular story that stands out to you that's a. That's a testimony of living single life and living that as a calling?

Doug Hankins: Well, yeah, we have a couple of single ladies in our church. They are at the top of their game. Okay. And they were part of our church at first Orlando. They're at the top of their game. They're brilliant. They're amazing. they're just great, great, great people. And I think, what churches have done for the most part is kind of said, oh, you guys are single. Okay, well, you guys can sit in the balcony. And they've been perfectly content to do that because they're at the top of their game. They earn a lot of money, they do well in life, they have lots of friends. They just want to be part of a faith community. And what's been really cool to see them the way our church First Warner park has done, is really embrace them and move them into some leadership development roles and discipleship roles. And, one of them in particular, I will not name her because she will listen to this, and then she will tell me, don't use my name in public. jokingly, she will say that to me, but, she's a little more of an introvert. And so for us, what we do, we believe in hospitality as a core value. So everybody who goes through our membership process is required to serve on the hospitality team for four weeks in a row. they're greeting, they're hosting, they're helping people get coffee, welcoming people, all that stuff. Stuff.

Doug Hankins: So the introvert in her, it's a little bit of a. It's a little bit of a stretch for her, but she said, I'm happy to do this. Is there any place in our church building where I can be hosting where I will have the least amount of people? Because, you know, people can kind of wear out down our social battery. So we said, sure. How about the balcony? Let me tell you, our balcony is a rocking place now. And in part, in part, it's because this single lady got up there and found her place and was able to help welcome people. And. And, I watched not only her come alive, I watched everybody around her come alive. And to be able to give that gift to that person and to the people she impacts, there's nothing like it. It's the best feeling in the world. And I love that for her, and I love that for us, and I love that for the kingdom of God. And so I think I want that for, every church.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, thanks, Doug. I appreciate it so much. I know it's something that's on the heart of many ministry leaders. And I just encourage you to look around when you're at church and just make a new friend, whoever it is, and walk up to them. I dare you. I actually triple dog dare you to say tell me about and then say something. Tell me about your family. Tell me about how you spend your time. And as you do that, I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine. Hey, I'll see you right back here tomorrow.

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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Pastor Doug Hankins talks with Jessica about reclaiming singleness as a God-Honoring calling.

https://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/still-single-still-called/