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Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello

Dr. Rich Griffith: and welcome to the Dr. Nursemama Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio.

Today we're talking about reimagining church as family

Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Today we're talking about one of my favorite things ever. I do love church. I really do. I've grown up in church. I have always been connected to church. And church can be messy and can be beautiful, but it's, it is what God has given us as a gift. And today we're going to talk about reimagining church as family. Now, when you hear the word family, I want you to think for a second what immediately comes to mind. Because for some people, it's an instant connection. It's warmth, it's stability, it's great memories. But for a lot of other people, and if I'm honest, me included, family's complicated. It can be marked by loss, by transition, by longing for a family you kind of imagined that you would have, but just hasn't materialized for whatever reasons, many of which are beyond our control. But the reality is family today looks very different even than it did a generation ago. We have single parents who are carrying extraordinary burdens. We have grandparents who may be stepping back into parenting roles while watching their own kids struggle. We have blended adoptive families, step families that are redefining what it means to belong. And many, especially young people, are quietly walking away, not just from church, but from any sense of spiritual family altogether. And from a holistic health perspective, this concerns me pretty deeply because belonging somewhere is not optional. This is foundational and God's design for us. And when people lack connection, it impacts their mental health, their identity formation, their ability to be resilient in faces of trauma, tragedy, trials, and even long term physical health. We've talked long about the rise in the mental health crisis, but there's also an epidemic of loneliness that is going on. And we see this crisis of people feeling really lonely, disconnected, like no one cares about them, to the point where some even contemplate, would it be better if I'm just no longer here? Like, nobody really cares about me? It wouldn't make a difference. So the question we're asking today is not just, where do people go to church? Where do you truly belong? And perhaps even more importantly, how is the church stepping into a role as family? Because Scripture offers a vision that is far richer than any of our cultural definitions. A family that's defined by adoption, by relationship, and most of all, by shared identity in Christ. So today's conversation is going to challenge me. It's going to challenge you to rethink, what family ministry really is. Not a program, not a demographic strategy, not something that's metric driven, but a way of being the church. And we are rejoined by a friend of the show, Rich Griffith. He is co author of Reimagining Church as Family. I've got it right here in my hands. And with over four decades of ministry experience, Dr. Griffith has spent his life equipping churches and leaders to disciple across generations, which I think is such a beautiful thing. We need that wisdom now more than ever. There's this narrative that, hey, older people can't really understand what younger people and younger families are going, going through today. But that's not true. Solomon said there's nothing new under the sun. And while the modality of delivery, the technology may be different in the way that those challenges present, the heart issues, the character issues are all the same. And Dr. Griffith's work is deeply rooted in helping the church become what it was always meant to be. A place where every generation is seen and valued and spiritually formed. And this book brings together both theological depth, but also practical wisdom and a much needed call to expand. How are we thinking about family? How are we living out that concept of family in the church? And Dr. Griffith has talked about that to us before. So, Rich, welcome back. So glad to have you. Thanks for dropping in and spending some time with us today.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Thank you, Jessica. It's always a privilege to be here. You guys are so encouraging and so thoughtful. I really appreciate your ministry.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I appreciate yours as well. And, and, you know, I appreciate it because you have your own personal experience that you shared a little bit with us before. And before we can rebuild a biblical version of family, we really have to understand the landscape of the reality of what we're facing. And that definition of family is different for everybody. So let's talk a little recap of your own personal story and how that's informed this book that you're Writing, because I'm sure that it has.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah. My short story is Felt the call to Adopt. Fought it for four years. And now, you know, many years Later, I have three adopted sons who are now 26, 23, and 17 as a single dad. And, there was a lot that drove that, looking at statistics and, you know, kids that age out of the foster care system, have like, a 50% chance of winding up being incarcerated, homeless, sex trafficked, or dead. And I'm like, well, I've got to do something about that. I can't just use excuses. So they got me on a path, too. And then realizing, after 30 years exclusively in youth ministry and discipling other people's children, I realized I didn't know how to disciple my own kids. We have professionalized ministry. We have professionalized discipleship, much to the detriment of our generations. We have had separate youth ministries. And this really is a catalyst for the book. you know, there's a concept of a Phoebe phobia and gerontophobia, the fear of the young and the fear of the old. Or like you said, it's like people have this projected message that, well, when you're older and younger, you can't really relate to each other. But we're part of that problem. Because think about church. You go in church on Sunday morning. Kids go one place, youth go another, adults go another, seniors go another. think about the messages when pastors say, we want to reach younger families. Well, that's great, but what about the generational legacy folks that have been there, Right. Who have put the blood, sweat and tears in. So really talking about being more church as family, I know, frankly, if my church did not become family to my boys, I would have had a much, much more difficult struggle and challenge dealing with kids who came from a background of trauma. So we have many authors that are contributing their perspective, grandparents, and like you mentioned, Larry Fowler from Legacy Coalition, Shelley Malia out at Dallas Baptist University. and again, tell me when to stop, because it's just a lot to unpack.

Dr. Jessica Peck: it is a lot to unpack. Go ahead, go ahead. Keep going. You're on a roll.

Church is defining family ministry in a very limited and narrow way, Dr. Griffith says

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, we. We were at a family ministry conference, D6 family ministry, which is a great ministry. Great conference, by the way. and the question was, how are we defining family ministry? And we realized that church is defining family ministry in a very limited and narrow way. Typically it's age and stage. Typically it's kindergarten through fifth grade, as if middle school and high school kids don't have family anymore.

Dr. Jessica Peck: And.

Dr. Rich Griffith: But one of the challenges is we realized we're not defining family ministry theologically. And so it comes out of the question when Jesus is teaching and there's a crowd and someone in the crowd says, jesus, your mother and brothers are here to see you. And Jesus says, well, who are my mothers and who are my brother? Right. Who are my mother, brother? And he looks around, he points to the people listening, he says, those who do the will of God are my mother and brother and sister, right? But when we think about a very constricted mom, dad, 2.5 kids, which is actually nuclear families, actually a Post World War II construct, and the problem is we've idolized it. So you do have people who are trying to do the will of God, adopting kids, helping raise grandparents or grandchildren as grandparents. But we tend to leave them out when we're planning for what we consider the ideal mom, dad, 2.5 kids.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, we really do, Rich, because I think there's this. There's this really big wave of nostalgia that is sweeping across the nation. I mean, we've seen the viral social media trend, like, what were you like in the 90s, dad? And, you know, it's. It kind of hurts my heart a little bit that that's like 40 years ago, because I definitely lived in the 90s. But we have this. This really longing for the world to be as it was, as we perceived it was, or as we long for it to be, instead of facing the reality of where we are now. And there's a time and place for nostalgia. I'm a very nostalgic person. I love tradition. I love, you know, all things old. But at the same time, we've got to face the reality of what we're seeing. And I appreciate what you said because I remember one of the things you saying last time we had a conversation about your family is here you are, a single dad, raising these three boys. And about the women in your church who, see, stepped in and helped provide some of those things that you recognize, okay, I can't provide as a dad because God did create a design for family. But the world is broken and we don't all have those relationships. There are families who don't have godly grandparents who are ready to speak in. We do have single parent families. We do have blended families. And we really need to step in as a church and fill in those broken spaces. So let's start with where we are right now. What are you seeing as these significant cultures, cultural shifts, and defining family why is this important?

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, I think so. I look at it. So my background is a lot more youth ministry. And, you know, did youth ministry in the 90s, 80s, 90s, 2000s. And what we discovered is that a lot of young people who we spend a lot of time, energy, money, finances, we spend a lot of time doing youth ministry. And we were actually part of the problem. And what I mean by that is we had a few. Our ministry is so program based, so affinity based. Right? We put kids with kids, adults with adults. Well, what was happening is we were separating wisdom, and experience from energy and innovation. And we need both. Right? Most churches think about hiring a staff person for youth ministry. You're either going to hire somebody who has experience or you're going to hire somebody who has energy. Rarely can you afford to hire both. But what if we became the church that realized, hey, we need to be family to each other, where we bring energy and innovation together with experience and wisdom and stop dividing it, right? Because young people left the church because they had no ownership, very little accountability. It was like we were going to wait until young people became adults and then they became a leader. But we never did anything to prepare them to be a leader in advance. So, you know, so what I really teach that whatever an adult can do, a child can do too. If they have that adult mentoring them and teaching them, why not put a guitar in the hands of a six year old who has some sort of interest in a guitar or running the AV or whatever it might be, being part of the greeting team, right? So that what we're doing now is we're being intentional about intergenerational relationships and we're discipling each other. It's not just the older person teaching the younger person. The younger person can teach the older person. How many of us, we're, digital immigrants, right? How many of us need digital natives to teach us how to do things sometimes with a new technology, Right? So that's the beauty of bringing older and younger together, to actually do that. So when it comes to family models changing, and I want to say this very clearly, we are not disparaging the nuclear family. We celebrate the nuclear family. We do think mom, dad, we think that's an ideal situation. I will tell you as a single dad, my situation is not ideal, but my situation is much better than those children winding up dead, homeless, sex trafficked or incarcerated. So when I look at that, I go, well, maybe as a church we can learn to come together and learn from each other. Especially for people who really are trying to do the will of God.

 Making the church too professional can hinder discipleship

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I want to go back to this concept that you talked about, making the church too professional, like professionalizing the ministry. And there is something to be said for wanting to do our ministry with excellence and have excellence in that way. But you're right, you know, we have seen this shift where there's an emphasis on programming over people. And what I see, Rich, from my seat, and I'm not, you know, in everyday ministry, I'm a professor in my everyday life. And I know you teach, too. But when I look at this professionalism, the professionalization of the ministry, what I see it, giving the message to families, is that we are encouraging them tacitly to outsource discipleship to the professionals. Leave it to the professionals. This is kind of the phrasing that we use, and we kind of value that professional mindset. We think, oh, well, I can't do that. But, you know, Rich, I remember talking to a young person who was talking about some struggles that they had, and this person's dad was a youth minister. And I remember asking, have you talked to your dad? And they said, yeah, yeah, I talked to my dad. But. But my dad just steps into that youth minister role, and I don't need a youth minister. I already have a youth minister. I want a dad. And I think that we've got to navigate that tension there of, focusing on relationships and making sure that we know that the family they have is the family that is called and equipped for such a time as this to step into that discipleship role. And they may need other family members to help come alongside them. They don't need professional program. They need a committed person, a mentor, someone who's going to step alongside them and walk through life with them to be able to fill the gaps that they have. I really appreciate you acknowledging that tension. Yeah. the idea the nuclear family structure is ideal, but we have a lot of families that don't have that ideal. And I wonder how much they're looking at that gap, thinking, feeling even less equipped. Oh, gosh, Rich, we have so much more to talk about when we come back. We're already at our first break. We'll talk more about this concept of reimagining church's family. I hope that you'll get a copy of the book, especially if you're in ministry, but even if you're not really, really instructive. And when we come back, we'll talk about this biblical vision. How can we be a family. We'll be right back with more from Dr. Rich Griffith.

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Today we discuss how churches can step into broken world of families

God Is Good (All The Time) by Austin French: Lately I've been wrestling with everything Cause everything seems hard Been caught up in the worry and anxiety keeps tearing me apart But I've been down and out before and every time I I cry out to the Lord he meets me at my knee I've seen and I believe God is good all the time Faithful as the sun to rise Walk with me every day of my life I'll sing it again I'll sing it again God is good yes he is through it all I not sure.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome m back friends. That is God Is Good all the Time by Austin French do we have any old school church people out there? You walk up and you say God is good and somebody says all the time. That's what you're supposed to say back. And then all the time God is good and God is good. Today we are talking about God's design for families and how churches can step into the broken world of that. And the truth that we're discussing today is that cultural shifts have created relational gaps and the church is called to step into this place right now. And I encourage you to think about where are you seeing the definition of family shift in your own life or community? How do we have hold that tension of the way that God designed families and and the that we need to step into the brokenness that families experience today? And think about your church. Do people experience your church as a place of belonging or is this a place of professional programs and performance? It's a tough question, but one we need to wrestle with. And so if culture has reshaped family, we have to ask, what has God always intended family to be? And Rich, I want to go back to this issue of, cultural relevance and talk about, you know, just what I was. I'm going to give you a chance to respond to what I said at the end of the last segment. Just talking about this push for professional programs or that we've got to be culturally relevant, we've got to really change our strategy. What do you see as navigating that. That tension in the church space right now?

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, I think the tension is, the reason we do a lot of programs are, frankly, programs are easy to measure. How many people attended, did we have some generated outcomes that we felt like were, you know, worth the effort? Things like that we do after action reports. But what is hard to measure is have we actually discipled people? Right. That's a longer life process. And it's easy to measure a program. It's not easy to measure discipleship. And I think I would go back too, because maybe we have been as a church, as evangelicals, we are taught to think about engaging culture. And so when we think about the cultural definitions of family, one of the things we're missing is the circumstantial definitions of family. So, for instance, what I mean by that is Shelley, Malia, who wrote the chapter on single parents, she wasn't divorced. She didn't anticipate being a single parent. But, her husband was killed, and so she finds herself all of a sudden as a single mom. I think of two or three daughters. I don't remember. Sorry, I know Shelly well, but I forget.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's okay.

Dr. Rich Griffith: And so the problem is, if we're looking for the cultural, definition or the cultural way of defining family, or even the church systems or program, we miss the circumstantial part. And what I mean by that is sometimes instead of making assumptions like, why is this guy a single dad? Or why is she a single mom? Right. Was it divorced? Whatever. And thinking about the negative, what we got to do is. And this starts moving into the practical part, right? How do we become church as family? Part of it. And again, everything I say, whether it's discipleship or how do we become church's family, we really got to simplify it. So one way to simplify that is don't be afraid to ask questions. if there's a Shelley, Molly M. I say her name wrong all the time to Malia. Malia. Oh, gosh. Anyway, she's going to Strangle me.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's okay. You're going to have to do some family repair after this. You know, this is, this is Family Dynamics 101 right here, Rich.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yes. So for Shelley's circumstance, if Shelly were in my church, instead of making, because I'm a part time pastor too, instead of making assumptions, I think what I would rather do is say, hey, let me grab a cup of coffee with you and let's talk. Let me hear your story. And I think you look at that. That's not a program. That is relationship. Exactly what you said. It's getting back to relationships, not just programming. It starts with something simple.

Dr. Jessica Peck: It absolutely do.

You propose a new way of thinking about family ministry

So you are really proposing a new way of thinking about family ministry. So cast a vision for us. What was the vision of this book? And how do you see us stepping into this moment and the church really stepping up?

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, I do think we still need to have some affinity ministries. And what I mean by that is you can't. You're not going to put a sixth grader into a young married couple class and talk about the same things. At least I hope not.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I hope not. That would probably be really boring and probably inappropriate.

Dr. Rich Griffith: It exactly right. So we still need some of that affinity or age segregated, ministries for that. However, I think we can just. Again, it's about intentionality. It's thinking differently outside the box. So one year you might have your youth camps, your children's camps, your whatever. But what if the next year you strategically planned as a church and said, this year, we're going to do a church as family camp. And so you specifically say, hey, this is for our single folks. You don't have to be married, you don't have to have children. We're going to do church. We're going to do a church wide as our church family camp. So you still have some years where affinity and some years that it just meets more as family, being less segregated. Right. What if you did seasonal Bible studies like some more liturgical churches have a thing called confirmation. Right. What if you did a family confirmation or a family Christianity 101 class that you just did for a season. So I think that's the vision is to just move toward more intentionality of intergenerational, where the young and the old actually disciple each other. I shouldn't say old.

Dr. Jessica Peck: The age and wisdom, the experienced, the mature, the seasoned. Yes, because I'm rapidly moving up in this group, at least according to my kids. Because you know, Rich, I was born in literally the previous this century. In the 19 something. So. Which they just find absolutely hilarious.

I think there is a cultural sense of ageism in Christianity

But I want to lean into this because I do think that there is a cultural sense of ageism, and we see a disrespect of older people, really a kind of discarding of their perspective. we see this happening, like, in really, some condescending reels, I mean, which every. Every generation has its own quirks. And we gotta make fun of each other for sure, for all of those things. Things. But this whole even looking at the baby boomer generation and saying, okay, Boomer, and it is not a compliment. Okay. If somebody says that most of the time. And I think that this is. This is something that is really unfortunate to see because there are older people with tremendous life experience. And I'll tell you that for my own kids, some of the most meaningful family experiences they've had are when older people really invest in them. Older people have something that younger people don't have. They have time. Often they have time. If they're reading tired, they. They have an appreciation of the brevity of life. They have experience of going through tough times and recognizing the character, the grit, the resilience, the way that the Lord has been faithful. There's something really beautiful about standing next to somebody, even in their 80s, their 90s, who's standing next to you in church and they're singing It Is well with My Soul. And you're looking at them and thinking, okay, you've been through some stuff in your life, and yet here you are. You are still here. I think those things are really important. How can we really lean into that intergenerational, aspect and really welcome that older perspective into that family that we're creating around our kids.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah. I think you interviewed me for the book voices, where Ms. Harriet, who has mentored my youngest son and all the things that she has done. And I think the real interesting thing about this, too, is that. So what I've done. And there's a second book I wrote called Discipleship is Leadership. And it takes how we disciple through certain ages and putting certain. Certain leadership models with it. And it's based off of. And I didn't know you this in your medical field. I know you know this. The Eric Erickson Psychosocial Development. So you hit the nail on the head. So for older people, that life stage is called generativity versus, stagnation. So older people are asking questions like, did my life matter? You know, nobody. Nobody ever gets on there. I hate to put it this way. Nobody gets the end of their Life and says, I wish I spent more time in the office. Right. Did my life matter? So now you put that with younger people who their stage is identity formation. Right. You mentioned identity earlier. Well, they're so insecure in this world. Right. They have a lot of anxiety, depression. Adolescence is now defined as age 11 to 29. So imagine putting an older person who is asking the question, did my life matter? With a younger person who's struggling with identity. And the resilient older person walking alongside the younger person is saying, your life matters too, and let me help you discover who you are in Christ.

Dr. Jessica Peck: that's so powerful because then, like I said, if you're looking at the age of the parents from 21 to 39, it's intimacy versus isolation. We're seeking to have those connections. And then 40 to 65, that generativity versus stagnation. I mean that. And 65 and older is actually ego and terrorism, integrity versus despair. Like having that confidence that, yes, these are the important things in life. And I think that's so important for us to surround our kids with those kinds of voices. And there are a lot of kids who don't have grandparents or who. And who. That there's people in the church who can really step into that role. How do you envision that happening?

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, I think, first of all, for. I'm going to talk to pastors for a moment. This does require a, it requires a bit of a DNA change. In other words, we can't keep thinking of the siloed ministry, youth ministry, children's ministry, things like that. We have to understand that the way we've been doing things, nostalgia, we may have had a great youth group experience stuff, but the youth of today are not the 80s and 90s and even early 2000 youth ministry. They are looking for belonging and acceptance. So I think as a pastor, we have to change how we think about our church and church's family, how we think about families. So. So as someone who teaches youth ministry, I know there are people going to youth ministry as youth pastors, and they can see it, they can understand why we need to do this, putting the different age groups together. But if the lead pastor doesn't get it and the leadership of the church doesn't get it, it will not happen. And we'll keep hemorrhaging young people out of the church, wondering, why is this happening? Fascinating, though I don't know if you know this or not. Beyond the nones, the N o N E s, as you talked about earlier, the ones who have no religious affiliation. Gen Z and Millennials are actually starting to return to the Catholic Church. Well, think about why. Well, because the Catholic Church offers stability. It, offers consistency. It offers a sense of strong identity. And here's the key. It offers belonging. And so if our non liturgical or liturgical churches could actually become more of understanding why young people are looking for that and how our older people can provide that, that's the start.

I understand why churches say they want to draw younger families in

so a little pet peeve, if you don't mind me going on this.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I, don't.

Dr. Rich Griffith: I understand why churches say, oh, we want to draw younger families in. Right. Because young families seem to be hard to get in now. Right. So we got to draw young families. Well, if I as a pastor say, well, we're going to really focus on drawing in some younger families again, what does that do to our legacy parents? What does it do to the grandparents who are in there? Well, do I not matter anymore? And that's a question again of the. The generativity or the ego. what did you call it again? I forget the last stage. Ego.

Dr. Jessica Peck: yes, that's right. Uh-huh. Yeah. Ego Integrity. Integrity. Integrity.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Integrity.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah. So I think, honestly, this sounds so simple, and it is. Yes, it requires DNA change, which is hard, but it's just how do we come together more naturally? And so, for instance, some of my best memories at a church, and you probably experienced this too, is when everybody gets together, you have a potluck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, yeah, right.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Everybody's together. It's great food, usually. Right. And it's interesting because, Mark Glanville, who's a theologian, I've quoted him many times on this. He says, Jesus ate his way through the Gospels. And, I want us to think about. That's a simple thing. So here's another way to look at it. If you look at your family life, what do you do together as family? Well, you eat together, you play together, you pray together. Well, how do we find ways to do that now in our church, with all generations? And I would say this too, as an older person, you know how life can get. We get busy sometime, we get a little down, maybe cynical. How many of us need to be around a child that reminds us how to play?

Dr. Jessica Peck: I mean, we all do. We absolutely all do. And I think about that scriptural, unless you become like a little child, there are definitely so many ways to learn from that. And I agree with you so much. You remind me of a guest we've had on before, who actually I, I was, presenting with at a Parent Summit just recently, a pastor named Rhyen Rush, who wrote a book called Restore the Table. And he talked about exactly what you're talking about. Riches is how Jesus broke bread at tables. That's how he built relationships. So much happened around a table. And I think back, you know, you think about the potluck. I think back to Wednesday night night's suppers. We used to have that at church, which was great because all the families would come together and then we would eat with everybody else's family. We would eat together as a church family. There's just something about breaking bread together and especially having that intergenerational component. I also want to go back to what you, were talking about. This, you know, ages 65 and older especially that's ego integrity versus despair that we're talking about this Erickson stage of development, which really is helpful for looking at how people interpret, you know, the, their the meaning of life really through a, developmental lens in the way that God made us. But I think about somebody like my father in law, Rich. So my father in law is retired, but he's a greeter at our church. And let me tell you, that man has his pulse on the, on the church. He knows, you know, what families are coming in together. And he told me something that was really. I, had not even thought of because he asked me about a specific family. To be really honest, Rich, I'll confess, I couldn't even figure out who he was talking about. And he's like, they sit like up and to the left in front of us, you know, he said. I, I noticed that the dad hasn't been coming for several weeks now. And I noticed when they walk in, they're not there. Somebody needs to check and make sure that they're okay. And I just thought like, what a gift it was to be able to recognize because that's what people want when they come to church. They want to be seen, they want to be known, they want to be loved. And that is the model of ministry that, you know, that, that really is set forth in the early church. But there's so much more that we are going to talk about when we talk about it. It's not. Church is not just a gathering, not just a place to go. It's a spiritual family with shared responsibility across generations. And I think, Rich, you and I can both look back and think to those people who invested in our life. I can think about people in my own church who, you know, invested in me, who were spiritual fathers to me when I didn't have the presence of an earthly father here. There were so many who stepped into that role and showed me what that was like. And so I think the challenge for everybody listening is what are the generations in your church that are disconnected rather than discipling each other? Because if we truly believe that we are a family, the next question becomes how do we care for every member of that family? Well, when we come back, I'll be talking with Dr. Rich Griffith, one of the co authors of Reimagining Church as Family, and we're going to talk about some practical elements. How do we care for those who are overlooked, who feel unseen and just like maybe that family I just described? We'll talk about that when we come back right after this break.

American Family Radio is dedicated to sharing the gospel and promoting godly values

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I Believe You by Megan Woods: I be lying if I said that I'm okay. Cause right now I'm lost and lost count of the broken prayers I've prayed. And it's true that some days it be easier a doubt but your word has never let me down. so I believe you when you say you're fighting for me. I believe you when you tell me that my story isn't over just yet. I will rise up again. You promise me that I will make it through. And I believe you.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is I believe you by Megan Woods. And that's what we're talking about today. There are some of you out there who feel like maybe you're not okay. You're not as okay as you'd like to be. Maybe you do feel lost and maybe you feel like you need a family. We are talking today to Dr. Rich Grifenhagen about reimagining church as family. He's written a book about it. I Encourage you to get a copy of it. And if. Especially if you're in ministry, and if you're in ministry, you're just an active member of a church, really, to look around you and think about who is lonely. The scripture set. Scripture says that God sets the lonely in families. And we're talking about reimagining that today as church families. And Rich, we've talked about. You shared your own story of being a single dad of three. Of three kids. We have so many different kinds of families who are walking into the church today. And I think that families who don't look like the perfect family, they don't have that mom and dad and 2.6 kids, you know, walking in through the door. maybe they have kids who are struggling. Maybe it's really evident that they're struggling in the way that they dress, the way that they speak, the way that they posture themselves. Maybe there's a dad who says, I'm not going to church with y'.

Dr. Jessica Peck: All.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Y' all go without me. Maybe it's grandparents who are walking in with their grandkids. I mean, maybe it's a single mom whose husband worked shift work. And I can't help but think about the barriers that they must feel walking in when no one knows their story. You kind of talked about this earlier, thinking that people are wondering, like, okay, so what's your story? I'm not going to ask you outright, but I'm going to kind of wonder and kind of, you know, hover around the edges of your story, see if I can pick up what somebody else says. How do we lower those barriers and make it easier for those people who. Who need family probably more than anybody, to be able to access the church environment and to connect to church's family.

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, I think, so here's how I word it. It's like when we're looking at something that we're not used to, we either see it as an oddity with curiosity, or we look away because we can't take it. And so I think when we have these other families that are not the nuclear family, mom, dad, 2.5 kids, I think that's our typical response. And it's sometimes it's not even intentional. It's just sometimes we have a lack of empathy. I don't know what it's like to be a mom. Right. So I don't have that empathy. And I think if we don't have the empathy, it's easier to kind of look away until you become intentional. And the intentionality is you Know what? I know I've got to be willing to make myself feel uncomfortable. I got to be willing to ask a question that might make me be embarrassed, right? I might have to walk up to the single mom and say, hey, there's no judgment, honestly. tell me your story. Just tell me your story. You don't have to lead it anyway. Just tell me your story. Build a relationship. Once you start building a relationship with people, then all of a sudden you get to know them and you hear their heart and you start to have more understanding. Here's the problem with so much progress. Focus on programs. When you put so much focus on programs, you don't hear people's stories because you're just trying to check off the objectives and the goals. Well, I mean, think about it. Even if we come together intergenerationally in worship, where we have a bunch of different people together, we're there participating in something, but we're not necessarily interacting. This is why, even for churches that aren't like a high church, like if you're. I know, a congregational church, but there's something to be said about the beauty of praying the Lord's Prayer together, right? You're together all ages. You're praying the same prayer, and it brings you together. It unifies you. So I think there's some beauty of that.

There's been this worship war before about hymns or contemporary worship

You mentioned something, too, about the hymns, Right. We know there's been this worship war before about hymns or contemporary worship. And I love this because this really, sets the. It helps us to experience in our heart what's going on. The beauty of hymns is that they have stood the test of time, right? Resilience. They've stood the test of time, and they had deeper theological truths. So it speaks to our head. And when you want to teach an adult, you can speak to the head. However, contemporary worship tends to speak to the heart, and it has more emotional. Right. But the Lord says, love the Lord your God, with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Well, it shouldn't be a question of whether we should sing worship contemporary songs or hymns. We need to sing both. Why? Because one speaks to truth and stood the test of time. One speaks the heart. Younger people need to hear heart. But when we bring together the two, like, if I'm an older person, I appreciate hymns. I can also appreciate heart music and vice versa. For the younger person, it's not about my preference. It's about what is good for the body as a whole.

Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, you talked earlier about this flock, this flocking of people, especially young people, to The Catholic Church. And a lot of what I've been reading, just some of it anecdotally, interviews, some emerging research that's coming out. One of the things that is drawing people to that, to that liturgical, environment is because sometimes in the programming that we've had in the modern church, it feels just like any other environment that they go into. It feels like a secular concert, feels like a worship concert. You know, where we have now I, I'm going to get on my soapbox and talk about worship leaders that don't have congregational singing. It's like we cannot follow your vocal riff and the, you know, three minute bridge, the ooze and the O. Like, please do not make me stand by my husband trying to follow that. He cannot do it. It's awkward. You don't know what to do. And there's something that, you know, they're drawn to, something that's different, something that stands out, something that is sacred. And I think that's just something for us to think about in that programming. It's not about the flashiest, what looks best on the screen, but what is really going to build relationships. And we're going to build relationships around singing those timeless truths together. If I know that I'm going to see you every Sunday, that you're faithful in coming, I see you singing those words every. It's really easy to start to build a bridge of relationship with those, with those people. And one of the, you know, the other things that I was thinking about in talking about, since we've been talking about translating some of this, these psychology elements, is really a strengths based approach.

Sometimes we step into families and we look for all of their weaknesses

And I want to, I want to talk about this for a second, Rich, because I think sometimes when we have families who are hurting, who are broken in some way by trauma, by tragedy, by separation, whatever it is, whether they're, you know, it's divorce, it's death, it's, it's, whatever it is, it's, it's poor choices, it's sin. Sometimes we step into those families and we start to cato, you know, catalog them and look for all of their weaknesses. Like, oh, okay. Oh, right. Rich, you're, you're a single dad. You don't have that mom. Oof. That's, that's going to be tough for your boys. Let's step in and fill that gap. I think it's a great opportunity to take a strengths based approach. Yes. Fill in the gap for those weaknesses, but also say to that single mom, hey, I know that you're really worried about not having a male presence in the home. We're going to help you with that. But you know what I do see that you have in your home. I see you bringing your kids here every single week, even when you're tired, even when it's tough. I see you really investing in them. Here are, here's the evidence and that we're seeing in the classroom that tells me that your kid appreciates those things that you see so often in those families. There's such a hurt. They're affirming the strengths that they do have and coming alongside those. It's going to make fill in the gaps so much better because you're going to equalize that power differential. Did you see that? Did you talk about that at all when you were envisioning this work?

Dr. Rich Griffith: I love that you're saying that. And so many folks who feel like fifth wheel families coming in, who are even serving in the church, you know, I think sometimes we feel like the church feels like we're broken. I can't tell you. This is a little funny. I can't tell you how many of the older ladies in the church wanted to fix me up with their niece or whatever.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Yay.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rich Griffith: And yeah. So, and so I think, you hit the nail on the head. It's not about trying to fix what's broken. It's trying to walk along. What family does is trying to walk alongside each other and bring our strengths with each other to produce the best outcome. Paul writes about that, about the different parts of the body. Excuse me. I think that's what we're advocating for. Don't see people as broken. Okay. Maybe you can see them more as the real, not the ideal. Okay, Right. But not a project to be broken with that. Are a project to be fixed. And they're broken. And so we get a program to fix them. No, let's become family. Let's care and nurture for each other. Bring our strengths and our weaknesses. Don't hide our weaknesses, but celebrate the strength. So you had a great point with that. That's awesome. You obviously read the book. You get it.

Dr. Jessica Peck: That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. Because there's so many times, though, where, you know, I've experienced something really hard. I mean, I've been through some tough things. And let me tell you, the way that my church, church family has showed up even when, you know, I did not, I did not have. I'm estranged from my parents, Rich. You know, so in those ways where, you know, parents you would want parents to show up. I had spiritual parents who showed up, who showed up in the emergency room before I even knew that they knew anything about it. You know, they were there, and they were already coordinating resources, saying, okay, we're going to pick up your kids from school. Here's the meals that are coming. Just. And I think, think sometimes, Rich, how do people who don't have church family, how isolated they must feel, how lonely they must feel, and maybe they have people who are helping. But there's something beautiful, as you said, about the body of Christ showing up and each serving from their gifts and just receiving that, but also knowing that you get the chance to serve from your gifts so that power differential is equal. Because, hey, when something happens to you, maybe, you know, I'm not the best, best cook in the whole world. Like, I. I can do, okay, I'm not going to bring the food, but I'm going to be the one who's there, who's praying for you, who's helping lean into those hard conversations. We all get to serve from our gift. That's a really beautiful thing about the body of Christ. So in.

In talking a little bit more about single parents who are bringing their kids to church

In talking a little bit more about especially single parents who are bringing their. Their kids to church, who are coming into church environments, what are other ways that we can start to build that relationship? I love how you talked about just. Just being bold, saying, hey, tell me your story, however much or little of it you want to have. I just want to meet you where you are and be. Be able to walk alongside you and giving them that open door. What are other ways that we can step alongside and do that?

Dr. Rich Griffith: Yeah, I think some of them are so practical. It's just thinking practical. Like, for instance, I know my family. Again, we have family game nights, right? So think about the single mom or single dad, in this case, three kids. And, you know, you can't always take your kids out to the movie. That gets expensive quick, right? And even then, some of the movies you don't want to watch anyway. But what if, again, you had at your church a family game night on a regular basis? Right now you got a place that kids can mingle all ages. I mean, you can bring board games out. You can. So we had, in Georgia, the power had gone out. We had ice storms, if y' all remember that, recently, just this year. And when all the power went out, you know what my kids said, dad, let's get the kerosene lanterns and let's play board games, right? Well, what if we had that mentality at the church to say we don't have to over program. That's, I guess that's what I'm really harping against is over programming. Families are already busy. They don't need one more thing to go to, but they can go take their kids to a, church wide game night and you know, maybe you share a little devotion. But think about that for single parents who don't have a lot of money and they come to the church and play game night and intermingle with other parents, other grandparents, other children. And it's just, there's no cost to it. It's just one of those things like I just experience family beyond my own little family. So there's game nights, there's like, you already mentioned meals. there are actually times together where, you know, we, we talk about, even in your small group, maybe for a season, you do an intergenerational small group. So put your small group, the affinity group on hold for a little bit and maybe during the summer you do an intergenerational small group group. Really, the sky's the limit. It's just whatever you think you could do. One of the most intergenerational things churches do naturally is vacation Bible school, right? So what if every now and then your Wednesday night was a mini vacation Bible school and you just bought people together of all ages. I think that's what we're really pushing for. But not to, not to neglect too the intentionality of, again, I have 5 year olds that at my worship service they take up the offering. Why not, right? Let them walk alongside a parent, they could take up the offering. So there's all these things. We just got to think outside the box. It is hard, honestly, Jessica, it's hard for me to say, this is what you should do because church contexts are different. What everybody can do is think outside the box and say, what brings stability and fun and discipleship to my little family? How can we do those things for the larger church family to bring stability, belonging, identity and fun in learning, what it means to be, to walk in Christ every day.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I love what you're saying, Rich, because what I'm hearing is create an environment where relationships can grow and thrive. That's really what we're doing as the church and everybody using their own gifts. And I think in this day and age of technological excellence, you know, we have churches who, especially children's ministries, who feel really pressured to provide that, that screen based, programming. And man, you know, I, I am not a, ministry professional. Like I'm not in church ministry every day, but as a pediatric expert and as a mom, I'm encouraging people just ditch the screens and go for in person reaction interactions because the truth is kids are going to be able to get screen based interaction pretty much anywhere that they can go. The one thing that cannot be replaced is living, breathing working relationships that are grace infused, that are real life based as a person, a real life human, not an AI chatbot, but somebody who cares about them, who's sitting across from them, looking at them eye to eye, having heart to heart conversations. This is what can't be replicated and you can find that with those to fill in those gaps that you have, whether it's grandparents or parents, parents or siblings. Even for people who have only children who can go and have that sibling kind of interaction, there's so much great there. I'm so grateful and Rich that you have this message. In a world where families are fractured and belonging feels fragile, the church has an incredible, incredible opportunity to be somewhere where no one walks alone. Not because life is perfect, but because love is present. The book is Reimagining Church as Family by Rich Griffith. And may the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. We'll see you next time.

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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Dr. Rich Griffith talks with Jessica about reimagining church as family

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