Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR friend we're living in a defining moment today. A woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can order the abortion pill online, often before anyone has the chance to tell her she is loved, that she's not alone, or that there is hope. That's why you are needed right now. You were made for this moment. At, PreBorn Network clinics, mothers are welcomed with compassion, practical support and a free ultrasound. And when she sees her baby and hears that tiny heartbeat for the very first time, feeling fear often gives way to hope. In fact, more than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing their baby on an ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic. That one moment can save a baby's life and open a mother's heart to the hope of Jesus Christ. This is our moment to stand. For those who cannot speak for themselves. Just $28 provides one life saving ultrasound. $140 helps rescue five babies. Please don't wait. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. If you're a business owner, would you consider a larger donation to claim a write off? Your best gift would be appreciated. A stand alone gift of $15,000 will sponsor an ultrasound machine for a needy clinic helping to save countless babies lives for years to come. All gifts are tax- deductible. Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. Preborn.com afr hello and welcome to the
Dr. Jessica Peck: Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for healthy families. We are going to talk about something today that is so on my heart, on my mind. That is really something that is my primary focus of work as a professor. When are talking about something that you need to hear about now if you're getting curious, stick with me because this is important. Over the last few decades now I am a bit of a dinosaur in pediatric nursing. I've been in pediatric Nursing now for more than three decades. And I have seen over those decades, we have become increasingly aware that childhood experiences do not seem simply stay in childhood, they imprint us for life. What happens to children shapes the architecture of their brains. It shapes the biology of their bodies, it shapes the course of their relationships, and often even shapes the character of their faith. Now, researchers in the 1990s, in a landmark study called Adverse Childhood Experience Experiences, this was researchers Felidian and Anda, who for the very first time on a large scale in research showed a correlation between adverse childhood experiences. We're talking about things like trauma, abuse, neglect, family separation or dysfunction. They were those things are associated with long term adult health outcomes. Now that might seem increasingly understandable. Today we're starting to understand that more. But, but I'm telling you, back in the 90s, this was something that was met with a lot of skepticism and saying, really? But it's really the way that our brains are made, the way that our bodies are made by God. And we see that when we experience adversity in childhood, in a broken world as adults, we're more likely to have depression, anxiety, even physical things like chronic disease like heart disease, stroke, also coping mechanisms that aren't healthy like substance use and relationship difficulties and even shorter life expectancy. Now, anyone who believes that people are made in the image of God and values human life, that should cause us to sit up and take notice. And we often hear statistics about specifically, difficulty in childhood being in foster care. We hear less about what happens when those children grow up. We often hear, yes, adopt, we talk about the little kids. But those kids do become adults. And today there are more than 330,000 children, children who are in foster care in America. But listen, behind every number, and 330,000 is a big one. Behind every number is a story. And behind that story is a child made in the image of God who is wrestling with questions that don't disappear magically when they become adults and graduate out of quote, unquote the system. These are questions like who am I? Where do I belong? Why do I still carry grief that others don't understand? Now, for me, as a pediatric nurse practitioner, I have seen firsthand how early adversity, trauma, tragedy, trial affects children's physical health, their emotional regulation, their attachment, their learning, their development. It affects them as a holistic person because that's how they were made by God. But we now understand that trauma isn't just something that you remember, it's something that your body and your brain carry. It's A lens through which you look at the rest of your life. But neuroscience also offers tremendous hope because the brain, especially in childhood, remains capable of healing throughout the lifetime. Now, how does it heal? Through God given goodnesses, like safe relationships and secure attachments and consistent caregiving and supportive communities. And for Christian families, this conversation carries another very important dimension, because Scripture tells us that God is near to the brokenhearted. He also tells us one of my favorite verses, that he places the lonely in families. And the church has often responded very generously to foster care and adoption. But maybe you're being called to walk alongside families after that placement day. Maybe you're walking in friendship or relationship with adults who experienced foster care adoption. As a child, you, wherever you are, I promise you that God has put you in a place where you can bring healing and grace and belonging to someone around you. And today I'm joined by someone who is very uniquely qualified to help us understand this journey, not only as a researcher, as a professor, someone with a doctoral degree in education, but as someone who has lived it herself. I am so honored to welcome Mary Ann McMillan. She's a professor, a researcher, and a powerful advocate whose work focuses on trauma and justice and vulnerable children and healing. But before any of those titles, she was a child in foster care and later an adoptee. And so she has written a new book called Bridging Resilience, a guide to healing for adoptees and former foster youth, families and the leaders who walk with them. This combines lived experience, therapeutic insight, biblical reflection, and years of research to help adoptees and former foster youth and caregivers and churches and families. I guarantee you see you fall into one of those categories if you're listening to help you better understand both the wounds of early separation, but most importantly, the hope of healing. Mary Ann welcome. So grateful for you spending time with us today.
Mary Ann McMillan: Thank you so much. I appreciate being here today.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Mary Ann before we talk about research or parenting or practical strategies or the science, I really want our listeners to meet the little girl behind this book. Because so often when I talk to listeners, they have that personal, When I talk to authors, they have that personal lived experience that God has given them. And your story really gives a face to what a lot of children experience. But maybe don't explain that very often. We don't often hear someone's whole story. So can you take us back to the beginning of your own experience that started in this road to your writing? Bridging Resilience.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes. so, as Jessica shared, I am a former foster youth and Adoptee. I was placed in foster care at around five months old. I had the opportunity to live with my birth mom up until then. and then I was placed in foster care, all 11 of us. I'm the youngest of 11 in my biological family. We were all placed in foster care at several different times in life. but only two of us were adopted. A sister, of mine that's a year older than I am. We were, adopted together by our loss, by our last foster mom. And so, adopted. We moved to Georgia from Philadelphia. And I struggled a lot growing up. Foster care was really hard. Being adopted into the family that I was adopted into was really hard as well. And so I, I knew that there was more to life. I saw just from watching my family members and the choices that they were making in life. I knew as a young child that I wanted to make a different, different light choices and just have a different life. And so, went to college, became a believer in college and really started growing in my faith. And the Lord during that season really placed just some incredible people in my life to invest into, import into me. And I feel like every season after that there's been someone that has been a believer or a non believer that has just invested and poured into me and has just basically, directed me on this path that I am on today. and so.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Mary Ann if I could pause for just a minute because we hear a lot of negative things that happen on college campuses, especially today. But to know that you came to faith in college, can you share with us, really briefly, a little bit more about how that happened? Did somebody step into your life? It's always encouraging, I think, to hear how God can use people to introduce other people to the gospel. How did that happen for you?
Mary Ann McMillan: Absolutely. So I never really desired to get an education. I knew that college, was a place where you could live on campus. There, was food and there was fun. And so I knew that I wanted to get out of the situation that I was in. And so I used education as a way for me to get out of, just my tough childhood, environment. And so I thought that going to college, everybody parties and drinks. And so I'd never done any of that beforehand. And I was like, that's what I'm going to do. And my first week in college, I met my campus pastor, who was involved with the Baptist Collegiate Ministries and was invited to a Monday night service. And from there on out I, became a believer. My first Semester of college. Every spring break, every summer, I went on a mission trip. And when I look back on that time, I think about just how much I just grew in my faith. and he was in my life. His wife was in my life as well. And then my supervisor that I had at the time, I was an ra, and a resident director during that season. And I just had a great, supervisor during that time that was also a believer, who just invested important to me during that season as well, and made sure that I got great grades so that I could graduate and move on from that season.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, shout out to all the campus pastors and all of the campus college ministries, because my goodness, what fruit those seeds have borne in your life. Mary Ann that just. That really just encourages me and gives me so much hope. Thank you for sharing that and, and going back to your story and thinking about man one of 11 and only two of 11 adopted. And I think sometimes in foster care, you know, we. We want the pretty version of the commercial. We want the happy ending. We want to think about, you know, we. We often honestly romanticize some of those things. And while God is definitely at work and he is in restoring things that are broken, it doesn't mean that it's not hard. And we know that from scripture that, you know, in this world we will have trouble, but we can take heart because of all of the hope that God provides. But you have described this book as being written from the inside out. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and why that personal lived experience and a realistic look at what it looks like for kids who are like you in the foster care system? Why is that so important?
Mary Ann McMillan: Definitely important. when writing this book, I really struggled with who my audience would be, because I told myself, well, this may be the only time in life I have the opportunity to write a book, or write a book like this. And so I originally wanted to just focus on adoptees and former foster youth because there are a lot of materials out there that are written for parents, for caregivers, and there's not a lot of materials for adoptees written by adoptees for adoptees. There are. but we need more. Yeah, but as I was writing. As I was writing this book, I think my first draft of it was more like a memoir. and, I think, as my editor and I were working through it, there's just so much that came out in that first version. She's, like, this is not a memoir. This is a trade book. And so you've got to add more stuff to this. So this can be not just a story, your story, but also a teaching resource as well. And so as I went through the different drafts of this manuscript, I, realized that I wanted to not just focus on one audience, but I had to focus on all three. and so you have to. For someone like me, I'm like, my voice has to be heard with all different audiences from former foster youth, adoptees, parents, and then those that are just working in the world with vulnerable children from those overseas to those within the church. And so I wanted to just give a little something to each area, because it all just needs to be discussed.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you talk in the book about grief and gratitude going hand in hand. And as you shared your story, Mary Ann you didn't say, oh, I was adopted, and that was my happy ending. I mean, I'm sure your adopted family, just like any family, any family anywhere, it is really difficult, and there are challenges that come along with that. I think the clear thing that I could. From your stories, that Jesus is your happy ending, you know, that's all of our happy ending. But grief and gratitude can exist together, and God can work in those broken places. And we are already coming up on our first break, but when we come back, that's where we're going to pick up is how do grief and gratitude exist? And I think that's really important when we're talking with kids who are in a foster care journey, who are in an adoption journey, not thinking, oh, the foster care placement is the happy ending, or the adoption is the happy ending, Jesus is the happy ending. And we'll also talk about identity and belonging, which is one of the biggest questions that's on the hearts of every child, but particularly children who are on a journey of foster care adoption. Every family carries a story, but some stories do begin with profound loss. And that is the case for children who find themselves in foster care, no matter the circumstances. Understanding that reality helps you move from assumptions about what that's like, especially if you haven't experienced it, toward compassion and meeting them where they are. So still much more to talk about, about how science and scripture teach us about healing after childhood trauma and how families can become places where resilience truly grows. If you are a foster child, an adoptee, you know one, you are a leader who walks with them. We're talking about the book called Bridging Resilience by Mary Ann McMillan. And we'll be right back with her and more after this break. Hello. I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Fight On My Knees by Evan Craft: In heaven is love don't give up don't give up on the ones you love oh, just a little faith is enough help me to remember my help comes from heaven God when I surrender I find all I need Strength in every week Weakness in the name of Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is Fight on My Knees by Evan Craft. And it's such a great reminder that one of the greatest resources that we have in fighting our battles is access to a heavenly father who loves us, who knows us, who cares for us, who made us for such a time as this. Even in a world that seems ear irreparably broken and we have kids who go through stuff we wish that they wouldn't have to go to through. And that's what and who what we're talking about and who we're talking to today. We're Talking to Mary Ann McMillan, author of Bridging Resilience, a guide to healing for adoptees and former foster youth families and the leaders who walk with them. And one of the greatest gifts I have seen in healthcare and psychology over the past two decades is recognizing how early experiences become biologically embedded. This is a beautiful reflection of intelligent design because kids are made with neuroplastic brains. And just as harm occurs, healing is possible. Trauma does impact the, the developing brain, but we also are given common graces and wisdom on how healing relationships can reshape it too. So, Mary Ann let's start with those families who maybe have not experienced foster care or adoption. They would say, I don't feel called to that. We haven't fostered a kid. We haven't adopted a kid. Let's talk about maybe what that looks like. Maybe they know someone who has experienced that but have never really thought about their experience. What are some of the lifelong effects of a separation, wounds that happen that people often overlook or just maybe don't understand.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, one of those areas is just early loss, early loss of losing our, our first families, our birth families, but not just losing them, losing like our culture, a little bit of our identity. you know, the. And for some it's even the language. so they're born in a different country, and then they're adopted, brought to a different country, and they're, basically have to learn a different language. And so there's parts of them that they have lost from the beginning. And, I think people need to realize that, that. That early loss of losing family culture and whatnot is going to affect their identity. yeah, that's one. That's a big area that people need to understand.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think it can be hard because especially if you're an adoptive family, if you've waited for a long time for a child, it doesn't feel like loss at all. It feels like gain. This is a miracle. This is what you've prayed for. But realiz loss of that in biology, like we were talking about, Mary Ann like I talked about at the beginning, even infants, they need consistent caregivers. And when they don't have that in foster care, that can really result in neurological dysregulation. And. And it expresses itself in a lot of ways. And so I think recognizing that, okay, that's a reality, there is loss, there is grief, but there's also hope. So that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Holding grief and gratitude at the same time. What does that look like for you and what have you learned about it as you've grown in your journey as a scholar to help other families?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, I think giving myself permission to grieve. I think for so long, I felt like I had to be grateful, to be adopted. I always played the good child, the quiet one, the one that was just, basically hiding in life because I wanted to be loved, to be accepted, and to be grateful for the life that I had. But as I got older and started processing my adoption, I realized, why do I have to be grateful? Like, I went through this loss of losing my family. I had an open adoption. Not sure if I shared that. but I knew my birth family. I knew some of my birth siblings. And before we moved from Philadelphia to Georgia, we had monthly visits with that family, with my family. And once we move, that relationship ended. And I didn't realize that I was grieving not having them in my life until I got older and some of my, siblings started passing away, from just tragic, situations. And I had to grieve that. And how do you grieve someone that you don't know? and so started in therapy, started walking through, just my. My past and how it was really affecting me. And, But it was. It was hard because I'm living in this state of I have to be grateful, but I'm also grieving. But there are so many parts of my life that I am grateful for, like my education, being able to work and serve in 30 different countries, and I'm publishing a book. And so some of the things that not a lot of other people get to do, I have that opportunity to do. But then there's this other side of, well, my siblings didn't get adopted. I didn't get to grow up with them. And so just living in this state of, grief and gratitude, I realized I'm going to be in this state forever.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is, that is a really tough statement, Mary Ann I think, you know, I, I did not grow up in the foster care, have an adoption journey, but I did grow up in a family with generational trauma. And I remember one time praying with the Lord, like, okay, when is this going to be okay? Like, when am I going to be over this? When am I going to be past this? How long know do you grieve, like, certain losses? And I remember so clearly the Lord saying to me, when are you going to be okay with not being okay? Like, when are you going to give this grief journey up? And like, just recognize that, yes, this is the lens through which you will see this life, but have hope, in a, in a permanent healing and a healing that I can't understand, that would happen in this world. And I think, Mary Ann that's one of the hardest things to reconcile because we can look at secular psychology and there is a lot of wisdom and things like attachment and trauma and resilience, and we throw around those words a lot. But there's also a faith based reframe. How do you take those things that we're learning about the ways that God made us for attachment, the ways that we are wounded when we experience trauma, and the ways that God has wired us for resilience. How do we look at those in the context of the gospel and God's story for us?
Mary Ann McMillan: I know for me, I was thinking about this probably a few months ago. I don't want to be completely healed with an ed, because I will never be perfect. I want to constantly be healing one, because if I am healed, then I won't need a savior. and for me, I cannot live my life without having a relationship with the Lord and always constantly relying on him and having him in my life. I wouldn't be where I am today without my relationship with the Lord. And so for me, I'm just constantly learning, growing, having people invest and pour into me, and constantly just growing in my faith. and so I. I just. I. I want to always be healing. Yeah. I'm not sure if that answered your question. it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, it does. We're. We're not gonna. We're not gonna get any Nobel Prize for this, you know, and. And figuring out world peace. Like, these are tough things to wrestle with. But your honesty is refreshing, and it comes back to issues of identity and belonging and even just listening to your story. Mary Ann you told me, I'm the youngest of 11. I'm adopted. But you also talked about loss and having a new family. You have this biological family. You lived in Philadelphia. Now you have a new adopted family, but with only one or one or two. Only two. one other one of your siblings. Right. Just one. Just two of you were adopted, and now you have this new family in Georgia. And that doesn't mean, like, that you're no longer the youngest of 11. You still are, but that's gotta be really hard to live with a foot in both of those worlds. Like, which. Which face do you like when you go and you do introductions, like, okay, I'm one of 11. No, I'm one of two. Like, these are my parents. No, these are my parents. Like, that is really hard. How do you take those issues of identity and belonging? And how is the Gospel reframed that? Do you have a before and after? Like, where you struggled with your identity and one way before you knew Christ? And did you have a different understanding after you came to know the Lord?
Mary Ann McMillan: I think I'm still working through that, to be honest.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'd be disappointed if you weren't.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, I do. I'm living in two. I feel like I'm living in two different worlds. My, birth family, there's 11 of us, and I'm the youngest. And then in my adopted family, my biological mom had three, biological children that are actually 30 years older than me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, wow.
Mary Ann McMillan: And so. So, yeah, so they're older enough to be my parents. Parents. Wow. And so trying to navigate both worlds, it is very complicated. You know, my. My identity is in Christ, but that's not all of who I am. and so, this, There's just so much more of who God created me to be that I needed to learn more about who I am. Like, embracing my black culture. I, was adopted by, my same race, family. but I grew up in predominantly white spaces. And so I've walked through life of wanting to be white, but knowing that I am black, and God made me black on purpose. And really loving who God created me to be has been a big part of my story. Really loving and embracing my culture, and didn't really get that until probably my late 20s, early 30s. I'm now in my 40s, so it took me that long to really start embracing who I am. And so there's so many different parts of my identity that I'm still learning and growing in. but firsthand, I am, I am a child of God. My identity is in Christ. But he also wants me to explore all of these other areas of who he created me to be.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And how does that connect to your sense of belonging? Do you feel what is. What is. What was that journey like for you? Just, growing up into where you are today? I'm sure you've had ebbs and flows and messy backs and forths. And, you know, I think sometimes people look at this journey like it's just linear, like you just start here and then you end up up here. But I'm sure that it's. That it's more loopy than that. What, how. Does, how. How has your journey impacted your view of belonging? And what do you want other people to know about how to help people feel a sense of belonging?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, belonging for me is, is me wanting to be seen and heard. and so I have, ah, probably in the last 15 or so years, I have surrounded myself with people who can see me for who I am and will actually listen to me, listen to my voice. And that is one thing that adoptees really want people to know, is to listen to our stories, learn from our experiences. because we want to be fully known not who we were in the past, but who we are today. yes, our past still affects us, and we need to know, know that. But there's so much more of who we are today. but for me, I just am a fierce advocate for making sure I am seen and heard, but also making sure others are seen and heard also, which is why I'm, always doing either mission trips or humanitarian trips, to help people, to help vulnerable populations be seen and heard. And so for me, that is what belonging means for me, is for me to be seen and heard in spaces or with people that are in my life. And there have been times where I have had to let go of friendships or move away from certain people because they weren't able to see me or embrace me for, for who I am. and so that has been really hard for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really hard for a lot of kids who experience trauma, whether that's adoption, loss, you know, foster care, whatever. Whatever kind of childhood trauma that can be. But especially for kids in. In foster care, what I see just from my experience in m. Interacting with people, with kids as a healthcare professional, is that these kids almost become chameleons, Mary Ann Like, if they have different placements, you. You get into a home and you think, okay, this is this home, this community, this social ecosystem, like this sibling structure, whatever it is. And you immediately, you're wired to start thinking about your safety. Like, what do I need to say? What do I need to do here? How do I need to blend in so that I can feel safe? And then you may have these different ident. Like, okay. And then you don't even know. Like, I see a lot of kids who become adults, and you'll think, like, what is your. Who are you really? What's your favorite food? Like, what's your favorite movie? And they're like, what's your favorite food? What's your favorite movie? Because I like what you like. Because that's how they've learned to keep them safe. How can we help kids who are in foster care to discover who they are and to be seen and known and loved just as God created them to be? Be.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes. So my. One of my favorite verses is, just kind of being the voice for the voiceless. and we have, I say we, as adoptees and former foster youth, we. We've gone through season. So m. So much of our life, people are speaking for us, making decisions for us, being our voice. But there comes a time and place where we have to learn and, we have to find our own voice. we have to know how to advocate for ourselves. And so I think parents, advocates, those that are working with, this population, help them find their voice early, help them stand up for themselves, advocate for themselves and learn who they are early so that later on in life they're not trying to figure out who I am. Where do I fit in in this world? Where do I fit in in this life? Because they already know who they are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Are.
Mary Ann McMillan: and so I didn't. I. I didn't get that as a child, but I got that as an adult from being in therapy or having people within church settings, you know, let me know what my spiritual gifts are. where can I, you know, serve in the world just based off of things that they were seeing in my life. And that has been really helpful for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I appreciate your honesty. With that, Mary Ann because what I see, a lot of kids, they. They feel if they're in a foster care and adoption journey, they feel like, oh, I can't say, like, like, oh, I actually, the. The favorite meal that I came into this family, I actually really, really don't like. But I can't say that because I'm supposed to be grateful that I have a placement, that I have a family that loves me, and I don't want to say anything to disrupt that. And that's just like any family with any kids, because every kid is made beautifully, wonderfully unique in the image of God. And so embracing each kid's strengths, like saying, that's part of resilience, that's such a big part of resilience, is helping kids to be confident and competent, gifts and skills that they bring to the family. And you just brought up such a great way that we can do that by talking about their spiritual gifts. I see God equipping you with this gift. I see this is something that you can serve your family, you can serve your community and serve the world with that. That's a really exciting thing to hear, no matter what your, childhood background is. And the thing is, healing rarely happens because somebody in your life, life just says, oh, the perfect thing at the perfect time. It happens through consistent love and safe relationships, honest conversations, and most of all, the faithful presence of people who are just willing to stay and reflect that God does that. After the break, we'll talk about what parents and churches and grandparents and teachers and even entire communities can do to become one of those healing places will be right with more from Mary Ann McMillan. Do you believe in the absolute inerrancy of God's holy word? Do you believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to radically change lives and empower us to live like Christ? At Wesley Biblical Seminary, we believe God is raising up a movement of people across our nation and across the world who hold fast to the authority of the Bible and. And the hope of holiness. We are working today to equip tomorrow's pastors and Christian leaders through biblical and theological education in practical ministry that's accredited, affordable, online, and highly personal. Our programs include undergraduate, masters and doctoral degrees, certificate programs, and even training for lay people. So whatever your next step is in being equipped for ministry, we're here for you. And if you believe these are the kinds of pastors we need leading our churches in the future, we invite you to learn more about partnering with us through giving. Learn more about Wesley Biblical Seminary by visiting us at wbs.edu today.
Waymaker by Michael W. Smith and Vanessa Campagna: I worship you. I worship you. You are here working in this place. I worship you. I worship you. You are way make miracles, miracle work, promise keep light in the darkness, my God, that is who you are. M way make miracle work, promise keeper light in the darkness, my God, that is who you are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is way Waymaker by Michael W. Smith and Vanessa Campagna And that's what we're talking about today is God being a waymaker and making things beautiful from broken places. I'm talking today to Mary Ann McMillan. She's the author of Bridging Resilience, a guide to healing for adoptees and former foster youth families and the leaders who walk with them. And I'm speaking very honestly and very candidly and telling you, you the beginning of my pediatric nursing career, I saw a lot of well intentioned families who have a heart for adoption. That is God's heart. That is definitely a beautiful picture of gospel restoration. But at the same time we can't over romanticize it and make it super simplistic like it is a, happy ending. It still carries different burdens with it. Those burdens can be beautiful and God can use for good and to become blessings as he has a journey of restoration. And whether your family has experienced adoption or foster care or not, or maybe even this is one of those things where you just turned on the radio and thought, oh no, God is not telling me about foster care or adoption again. If that's you, well, hey, that's between you and the Lord. But every child everywhere, in every situation needs emotional safety. They need secure attachment. They need a place of belonging, to thrive and to fully step into who God has created them to be. And so the principles we're discussing today apply far beyond foster care. So for any kid that's experienced any hardship, maybe they've lost a parent, maybe they have gone through a divorce, maybe they've had a tragedy happen in their community, maybe they've witnessed violence or abuse or any number of things. Things. Mary Ann let's talk about what are some practical ways that parents can create emotional safety and secure attachment? Because I know I came from Gen X and basically the parenting strategy was summed up in three words, suck it up. Like that was what, that was what we did. And there was some good to that because we're pretty tough. But you know, now we see the pendulum swinging towards gentle parenting and maybe the other way. It's always like we're trying to find that balance in the middle, middle. What does every kid need for ideal emotional safety and secure attachment? Are you there, Mary Ann? Can you hear me?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, I can hear you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay.
Mary Ann McMillan: All right, great. Okay. All right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Just making sure. How can parents create emotional safety and secure attachment for their kids?
Mary Ann McMillan: Listening without judging, for one, but also just being willing to allow your child to share what they're going through, if they miss their birth family, being able to listen to them if they don't know their birth family, just listen to their stories. that's one thing that I, did not have growing up. My mom was really sweet. She never said anything negative about my birth family or my birth parents. It was always just positive, positive, wording, age appropriate conversations that we had when we did have them. but I think raising, children in the 90s, with her starting foster care in the 80s, she didn't have the tools and resources that we have today. there was no mention of trauma, none of that in her training. but those of you that are fostering now, you now have those resources. And so creating those spaces for your child to be able to speak freely, to share how they're feeling. But know that a lot of their trauma is going to show up in their behaviors and you have to know how to handle that. But know that their behaviors are acting out of the things that they're feeling that they can't necessarily, communicate.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Mary Ann you talked about your mom being well intentioned, your adopted mom being well intentioned, but perhaps ill equipped, as many were. You know, when we, when we do the best with what we know, and then when we know more, we do better. And so if there's anybody listening who feels like, oh, goodness, you know, maybe I didn't do the best that I could, just rest your head on your pillow knowing if you are doing the best that you can with what you know, God is faithful even in those places. And it's encouraging to me to see us know better and be equipped better and have just more of this vocabulary, be more mainstream to talk about how kids brains are wired and how we can really meet them in that space. And, and one of the things that's hard, I think, Mary Ann that all parents are wired today for immediate gratification. We want our kids to give us that immediate feedback loop that we're doing a good job as a parent. And when our kids experience trauma that's not easily fixed, that's not something that may ever be fully fixed this side of heaven. And when they have things like grieving for their birth parents, it, when those emotions come up, can feel really uncomfortable. For the adopted parents, thinking, am I not enough? Am I not doing enough? Am I failing at this? And all of a sudden it's like it just becomes about you. In that moment, the adult, instead of keeping the focus on the kid, like this is about the kid. And it's normal to have those things. You could be the best, the most trained, the most aware, the most divinely equipped adoptive parent in the whole world. And that loss and that grief is still going to be there. How do we get intentional in that space to recognize that those things can hurt and be comfortable in that healing space?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, that's a great question and a hard one. because a lot of times parents are not going to get that instant gratification. Honestly, they may never get it. They may never get the praise or the thank you, the. But you're not going to get that from a biological child either. you may have.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Sorry, Mary Ann all. And all the parents said, amen. That is so true. That's very rare. Good point.
Mary Ann McMillan: Don't expect us to be grateful if you're not going to get that from your biological. Biological children. But also, I tell parents this a lot. Please do, the job of walking through your own pain and hurt or things that you have gone through before. You step into the pain of your adopted or foster child because a lot of your, just struggles of, you know, infertility or, you know, childhood trauma that you may have gone through, work through that first so that you're not putting all of that on that child who's not going to be able to love and care for you the way that you need to be loved and cared for. And so growing up, my mom would always, call me weird or call me unique or, would have, some. Some negative words to describe me. And as I got older, I realized it was just her way of expressing that she wasn't able to connect with me. And we did have a conversation about it probably a couple years ago. I asked her, why did you always call me weird or tell me that I. I'm unique? And she actually admitted that. She was like, you're just so different from all of my other children. And she said, I just didn't know what to do with you. she said, you needed more guidance than you needed parenting. And, she said that was hard for me. And I think it was coming from a place of some. Maybe control, things that she has worked through in her life. And you can't parent all of your children the exact same way. And for me, I just didn't need that. And so she never really found the way to connect with me. And that's one thing I tell parents. Find different ways to connect with that child, child. If it's something that they love, a book, traveling, something like that, find way to connect with that child. You'll have a better relationship with that child.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. Adoption journey or no, you're. You're talking about struggles that all parents face. And that is, that's a really hard thing to do. And just figure out, okay, what do you need from me in this moment? And that's why I think prayer is such a big part of this journey. Mary Ann you've got to pray every day is very humbling. And know that, that, that his grace is sufficient for our weaknesses, for sure. And this extends from parenting Mary Ann to the church. And you really challenge churches to think beyond that placement day. Everybody gets really excited about that. I see lots of videos. I, I have lots of personal friends who have had their church really involved in that placement day, the journey up to that. We have the baby shower, we have the welcome, and then afterwards, like, kind of like, oh, this is not, not going how I thought it would be. This is a lot harder than I thought it would be. what does long term support look like from a church setting? What. Where do you see opportunity to really step in and minister?
Mary Ann McMillan: So interesting because you just listed off all of the things that we do for new parents. But there are so many adopted and foster parents where they don't get that baby shower, they don't get, you know, gifts or whatnot, and so show up in that way. find out who in your church is adopting or fostering and figure out what their needs are and to be there for them. 2. I know a lot of churches have special needs ministries, but does your special need ministry, equip. Are they equipped and trained to care for, children from traumatic backgrounds, those that are walking through foster care or have been adopted? Do you have, have training, to train your leaders on how to care for those families and for that child? otherwise you just take that child, put them in a special needs class, and then you just kind of move on. And it's like, wait, we need to take the opportunity to step back and figure out how to care for that population of children. and also, can we stop praising adopted families? Stop putting them on pedestals and telling them that, you know, they're perfect and they're great. And you know, on the outside they can. Parents are smiling and thanking them, but on the inside, they are struggling so much. And so figure out what those struggles are and how to come alongside those families and be with them long term, not just on that adoption day.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so right, Mary Ann I talk about this all the time where we put families up on a pedestal and then all of a sudden their fear, their greatest fear is falling off the pedestal that we put them on and having those social injuries that happen. And it can make the barrier just saying, hey, this isn't as beautiful or as miraculous as, you know, as you think that it is. Yes, it is beautiful. Yes, it is miraculous. But it's also broken and it's messy. And that is really important. M. And speaking of that brokenness and messiness, Mary Ann you. You talked from the very beginning how you originally wanted to write this book for kids, for adults who have been through the foster care system, who have been through an adoption journey. I think there's probably, I know there's people listening who have experienced this, that. And maybe to some extent, Mary Ann they're. They're wearing a little bit of a mask. Like, okay, yeah, like I can't, you know, walk into every circle in every space and drag this out. Like, you know, that's only like, oh, here, here, let me unpack all of the things that have happened to me. And to some extent you just kind of carry that with you in whatever circle you go. And maybe they're thinking, I've never really dealt with this adequately or never really felt an invitation to do that. That. What words of hope from a faith based reframe would you give to people who are walking with any variation of that, of that burden?
Mary Ann McMillan: Well, for one to know that you're. You don't have to do life alone. if you are plugged in with a local church, church, or if you have just a great community that you're involved with, rely on that community. share, if you feel safe enough, share what you're walking through. That's what, that's what the church is for. That's what your community is for. And I think that we, just as humans, feel like, we have to hide, the things that we're walking through. Are we going through, through. And it's like, you don't have to hide that. Share that with people. get plugged in with a local church, get plugged in with a, fitness gym or something so that you have some type of outlet to help you during these hard seasons. but just know that you don't have to do this alone.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a beautiful thing. I really appreciate your authenticity. You can tell Mary Ann this really comes from your. Your heart. This is a journey that you have walked yourself. What is the thing that you've learned about God the most in this journey? In your own personal journey, what have you learned about God's character?
Mary Ann McMillan: Loving. So. Loving, so caring. Incredible provider. and that, he just. He loves me. He cares so much for me. and during those hard seasons, that he's still just here for me. and. And one thing I want people to know is that I'm not a success story. I am still grieving. I'm still in therapy every week. I'm, taking anxiety meds from the things that I'm struggling with in life. But God is just constantly reminding me that I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to live this life on my own. And when I'm in the space of. Of feeling lonely, feeling isolated, that he is by my side every single step. Well, Mary, constantly trusting him.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Amen to that. People might get mad at me because, you know, I love to mention Christmas year round, but I'm thinking of a verse from Isaiah that says that God is that he sent us Jesus as a wonderful counselor, everlasting father, mighty God, and the Prince of peace. And I can see that, that influence in your life. Thank you so much, Mary Ann for your scholarship, but your courage and sharing your own story so that other people can find the language for theirs. And one of the most encouraging truths to me from today's conversation is that resilience is not pretending that wounds never happened or some instant healing. It's discovering that healing is possible because we were never meant to walk alone. And maybe the greatest gift that we can give our kids as parents is the not perfection. It is presence and consistency. Remember that God sets the lonely and families. And whatever your situation, I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. I'll see you next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com/AFR friend we're living in a defining moment today. A woman facing an unexpected pregnancy can order the abortion pill online, often before anyone has the chance to tell her she is loved, that she's not alone, or that there is hope. That's why you are needed right now. You were made for this moment. At, PreBorn Network clinics, mothers are welcomed with compassion, practical support and a free ultrasound. And when she sees her baby and hears that tiny heartbeat for the very first time, feeling fear often gives way to hope. In fact, more than 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing their baby on an ultrasound at a PreBorn Network clinic. That one moment can save a baby's life and open a mother's heart to the hope of Jesus Christ. This is our moment to stand. For those who cannot speak for themselves. Just $28 provides one life saving ultrasound. $140 helps rescue five babies. Please don't wait. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby. If you're a business owner, would you consider a larger donation to claim a write off? Your best gift would be appreciated. A stand alone gift of $15,000 will sponsor an ultrasound machine for a needy clinic helping to save countless babies lives for years to come. All gifts are tax- deductible. Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. Preborn.com afr hello and welcome to the
Dr. Jessica Peck: Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for healthy families here on American radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for healthy families. We are going to talk about something today that is so on my heart, on my mind. That is really something that is my primary focus of work as a professor. When are talking about something that you need to hear about now if you're getting curious, stick with me because this is important. Over the last few decades now I am a bit of a dinosaur in pediatric nursing. I've been in pediatric Nursing now for more than three decades. And I have seen over those decades, we have become increasingly aware that childhood experiences do not seem simply stay in childhood, they imprint us for life. What happens to children shapes the architecture of their brains. It shapes the biology of their bodies, it shapes the course of their relationships, and often even shapes the character of their faith. Now, researchers in the 1990s, in a landmark study called Adverse Childhood Experience Experiences, this was researchers Felidian and Anda, who for the very first time on a large scale in research showed a correlation between adverse childhood experiences. We're talking about things like trauma, abuse, neglect, family separation or dysfunction. They were those things are associated with long term adult health outcomes. Now that might seem increasingly understandable. Today we're starting to understand that more. But, but I'm telling you, back in the 90s, this was something that was met with a lot of skepticism and saying, really? But it's really the way that our brains are made, the way that our bodies are made by God. And we see that when we experience adversity in childhood, in a broken world as adults, we're more likely to have depression, anxiety, even physical things like chronic disease like heart disease, stroke, also coping mechanisms that aren't healthy like substance use and relationship difficulties and even shorter life expectancy. Now, anyone who believes that people are made in the image of God and values human life, that should cause us to sit up and take notice. And we often hear statistics about specifically, difficulty in childhood being in foster care. We hear less about what happens when those children grow up. We often hear, yes, adopt, we talk about the little kids. But those kids do become adults. And today there are more than 330,000 children, children who are in foster care in America. But listen, behind every number, and 330,000 is a big one. Behind every number is a story. And behind that story is a child made in the image of God who is wrestling with questions that don't disappear magically when they become adults and graduate out of quote, unquote the system. These are questions like who am I? Where do I belong? Why do I still carry grief that others don't understand? Now, for me, as a pediatric nurse practitioner, I have seen firsthand how early adversity, trauma, tragedy, trial affects children's physical health, their emotional regulation, their attachment, their learning, their development. It affects them as a holistic person because that's how they were made by God. But we now understand that trauma isn't just something that you remember, it's something that your body and your brain carry. It's A lens through which you look at the rest of your life. But neuroscience also offers tremendous hope because the brain, especially in childhood, remains capable of healing throughout the lifetime. Now, how does it heal? Through God given goodnesses, like safe relationships and secure attachments and consistent caregiving and supportive communities. And for Christian families, this conversation carries another very important dimension, because Scripture tells us that God is near to the brokenhearted. He also tells us one of my favorite verses, that he places the lonely in families. And the church has often responded very generously to foster care and adoption. But maybe you're being called to walk alongside families after that placement day. Maybe you're walking in friendship or relationship with adults who experienced foster care adoption. As a child, you, wherever you are, I promise you that God has put you in a place where you can bring healing and grace and belonging to someone around you. And today I'm joined by someone who is very uniquely qualified to help us understand this journey, not only as a researcher, as a professor, someone with a doctoral degree in education, but as someone who has lived it herself. I am so honored to welcome Mary Ann McMillan. She's a professor, a researcher, and a powerful advocate whose work focuses on trauma and justice and vulnerable children and healing. But before any of those titles, she was a child in foster care and later an adoptee. And so she has written a new book called Bridging Resilience, a guide to healing for adoptees and former foster youth, families and the leaders who walk with them. This combines lived experience, therapeutic insight, biblical reflection, and years of research to help adoptees and former foster youth and caregivers and churches and families. I guarantee you see you fall into one of those categories if you're listening to help you better understand both the wounds of early separation, but most importantly, the hope of healing. Mary Ann welcome. So grateful for you spending time with us today.
Mary Ann McMillan: Thank you so much. I appreciate being here today.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Mary Ann before we talk about research or parenting or practical strategies or the science, I really want our listeners to meet the little girl behind this book. Because so often when I talk to listeners, they have that personal, When I talk to authors, they have that personal lived experience that God has given them. And your story really gives a face to what a lot of children experience. But maybe don't explain that very often. We don't often hear someone's whole story. So can you take us back to the beginning of your own experience that started in this road to your writing? Bridging Resilience.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes. so, as Jessica shared, I am a former foster youth and Adoptee. I was placed in foster care at around five months old. I had the opportunity to live with my birth mom up until then. and then I was placed in foster care, all 11 of us. I'm the youngest of 11 in my biological family. We were all placed in foster care at several different times in life. but only two of us were adopted. A sister, of mine that's a year older than I am. We were, adopted together by our loss, by our last foster mom. And so, adopted. We moved to Georgia from Philadelphia. And I struggled a lot growing up. Foster care was really hard. Being adopted into the family that I was adopted into was really hard as well. And so I, I knew that there was more to life. I saw just from watching my family members and the choices that they were making in life. I knew as a young child that I wanted to make a different, different light choices and just have a different life. And so, went to college, became a believer in college and really started growing in my faith. And the Lord during that season really placed just some incredible people in my life to invest into, import into me. And I feel like every season after that there's been someone that has been a believer or a non believer that has just invested and poured into me and has just basically, directed me on this path that I am on today. and so.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Mary Ann if I could pause for just a minute because we hear a lot of negative things that happen on college campuses, especially today. But to know that you came to faith in college, can you share with us, really briefly, a little bit more about how that happened? Did somebody step into your life? It's always encouraging, I think, to hear how God can use people to introduce other people to the gospel. How did that happen for you?
Mary Ann McMillan: Absolutely. So I never really desired to get an education. I knew that college, was a place where you could live on campus. There, was food and there was fun. And so I knew that I wanted to get out of the situation that I was in. And so I used education as a way for me to get out of, just my tough childhood, environment. And so I thought that going to college, everybody parties and drinks. And so I'd never done any of that beforehand. And I was like, that's what I'm going to do. And my first week in college, I met my campus pastor, who was involved with the Baptist Collegiate Ministries and was invited to a Monday night service. And from there on out I, became a believer. My first Semester of college. Every spring break, every summer, I went on a mission trip. And when I look back on that time, I think about just how much I just grew in my faith. and he was in my life. His wife was in my life as well. And then my supervisor that I had at the time, I was an ra, and a resident director during that season. And I just had a great, supervisor during that time that was also a believer, who just invested important to me during that season as well, and made sure that I got great grades so that I could graduate and move on from that season.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, shout out to all the campus pastors and all of the campus college ministries, because my goodness, what fruit those seeds have borne in your life. Mary Ann that just. That really just encourages me and gives me so much hope. Thank you for sharing that and, and going back to your story and thinking about man one of 11 and only two of 11 adopted. And I think sometimes in foster care, you know, we. We want the pretty version of the commercial. We want the happy ending. We want to think about, you know, we. We often honestly romanticize some of those things. And while God is definitely at work and he is in restoring things that are broken, it doesn't mean that it's not hard. And we know that from scripture that, you know, in this world we will have trouble, but we can take heart because of all of the hope that God provides. But you have described this book as being written from the inside out. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and why that personal lived experience and a realistic look at what it looks like for kids who are like you in the foster care system? Why is that so important?
Mary Ann McMillan: Definitely important. when writing this book, I really struggled with who my audience would be, because I told myself, well, this may be the only time in life I have the opportunity to write a book, or write a book like this. And so I originally wanted to just focus on adoptees and former foster youth because there are a lot of materials out there that are written for parents, for caregivers, and there's not a lot of materials for adoptees written by adoptees for adoptees. There are. but we need more. Yeah, but as I was writing. As I was writing this book, I think my first draft of it was more like a memoir. and, I think, as my editor and I were working through it, there's just so much that came out in that first version. She's, like, this is not a memoir. This is a trade book. And so you've got to add more stuff to this. So this can be not just a story, your story, but also a teaching resource as well. And so as I went through the different drafts of this manuscript, I, realized that I wanted to not just focus on one audience, but I had to focus on all three. and so you have to. For someone like me, I'm like, my voice has to be heard with all different audiences from former foster youth, adoptees, parents, and then those that are just working in the world with vulnerable children from those overseas to those within the church. And so I wanted to just give a little something to each area, because it all just needs to be discussed.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you talk in the book about grief and gratitude going hand in hand. And as you shared your story, Mary Ann you didn't say, oh, I was adopted, and that was my happy ending. I mean, I'm sure your adopted family, just like any family, any family anywhere, it is really difficult, and there are challenges that come along with that. I think the clear thing that I could. From your stories, that Jesus is your happy ending, you know, that's all of our happy ending. But grief and gratitude can exist together, and God can work in those broken places. And we are already coming up on our first break, but when we come back, that's where we're going to pick up is how do grief and gratitude exist? And I think that's really important when we're talking with kids who are in a foster care journey, who are in an adoption journey, not thinking, oh, the foster care placement is the happy ending, or the adoption is the happy ending, Jesus is the happy ending. And we'll also talk about identity and belonging, which is one of the biggest questions that's on the hearts of every child, but particularly children who are on a journey of foster care adoption. Every family carries a story, but some stories do begin with profound loss. And that is the case for children who find themselves in foster care, no matter the circumstances. Understanding that reality helps you move from assumptions about what that's like, especially if you haven't experienced it, toward compassion and meeting them where they are. So still much more to talk about, about how science and scripture teach us about healing after childhood trauma and how families can become places where resilience truly grows. If you are a foster child, an adoptee, you know one, you are a leader who walks with them. We're talking about the book called Bridging Resilience by Mary Ann McMillan. And we'll be right back with her and more after this break. Hello. I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Fight On My Knees by Evan Craft: In heaven is love don't give up don't give up on the ones you love oh, just a little faith is enough help me to remember my help comes from heaven God when I surrender I find all I need Strength in every week Weakness in the name of Jesus.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is Fight on My Knees by Evan Craft. And it's such a great reminder that one of the greatest resources that we have in fighting our battles is access to a heavenly father who loves us, who knows us, who cares for us, who made us for such a time as this. Even in a world that seems ear irreparably broken and we have kids who go through stuff we wish that they wouldn't have to go to through. And that's what and who what we're talking about and who we're talking to today. We're Talking to Mary Ann McMillan, author of Bridging Resilience, a guide to healing for adoptees and former foster youth families and the leaders who walk with them. And one of the greatest gifts I have seen in healthcare and psychology over the past two decades is recognizing how early experiences become biologically embedded. This is a beautiful reflection of intelligent design because kids are made with neuroplastic brains. And just as harm occurs, healing is possible. Trauma does impact the, the developing brain, but we also are given common graces and wisdom on how healing relationships can reshape it too. So, Mary Ann let's start with those families who maybe have not experienced foster care or adoption. They would say, I don't feel called to that. We haven't fostered a kid. We haven't adopted a kid. Let's talk about maybe what that looks like. Maybe they know someone who has experienced that but have never really thought about their experience. What are some of the lifelong effects of a separation, wounds that happen that people often overlook or just maybe don't understand.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, one of those areas is just early loss, early loss of losing our, our first families, our birth families, but not just losing them, losing like our culture, a little bit of our identity. you know, the. And for some it's even the language. so they're born in a different country, and then they're adopted, brought to a different country, and they're, basically have to learn a different language. And so there's parts of them that they have lost from the beginning. And, I think people need to realize that, that. That early loss of losing family culture and whatnot is going to affect their identity. yeah, that's one. That's a big area that people need to understand.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I think it can be hard because especially if you're an adoptive family, if you've waited for a long time for a child, it doesn't feel like loss at all. It feels like gain. This is a miracle. This is what you've prayed for. But realiz loss of that in biology, like we were talking about, Mary Ann like I talked about at the beginning, even infants, they need consistent caregivers. And when they don't have that in foster care, that can really result in neurological dysregulation. And. And it expresses itself in a lot of ways. And so I think recognizing that, okay, that's a reality, there is loss, there is grief, but there's also hope. So that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Holding grief and gratitude at the same time. What does that look like for you and what have you learned about it as you've grown in your journey as a scholar to help other families?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, I think giving myself permission to grieve. I think for so long, I felt like I had to be grateful, to be adopted. I always played the good child, the quiet one, the one that was just, basically hiding in life because I wanted to be loved, to be accepted, and to be grateful for the life that I had. But as I got older and started processing my adoption, I realized, why do I have to be grateful? Like, I went through this loss of losing my family. I had an open adoption. Not sure if I shared that. but I knew my birth family. I knew some of my birth siblings. And before we moved from Philadelphia to Georgia, we had monthly visits with that family, with my family. And once we move, that relationship ended. And I didn't realize that I was grieving not having them in my life until I got older and some of my, siblings started passing away, from just tragic, situations. And I had to grieve that. And how do you grieve someone that you don't know? and so started in therapy, started walking through, just my. My past and how it was really affecting me. And, But it was. It was hard because I'm living in this state of I have to be grateful, but I'm also grieving. But there are so many parts of my life that I am grateful for, like my education, being able to work and serve in 30 different countries, and I'm publishing a book. And so some of the things that not a lot of other people get to do, I have that opportunity to do. But then there's this other side of, well, my siblings didn't get adopted. I didn't get to grow up with them. And so just living in this state of, grief and gratitude, I realized I'm going to be in this state forever.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is, that is a really tough statement, Mary Ann I think, you know, I, I did not grow up in the foster care, have an adoption journey, but I did grow up in a family with generational trauma. And I remember one time praying with the Lord, like, okay, when is this going to be okay? Like, when am I going to be over this? When am I going to be past this? How long know do you grieve, like, certain losses? And I remember so clearly the Lord saying to me, when are you going to be okay with not being okay? Like, when are you going to give this grief journey up? And like, just recognize that, yes, this is the lens through which you will see this life, but have hope, in a, in a permanent healing and a healing that I can't understand, that would happen in this world. And I think, Mary Ann that's one of the hardest things to reconcile because we can look at secular psychology and there is a lot of wisdom and things like attachment and trauma and resilience, and we throw around those words a lot. But there's also a faith based reframe. How do you take those things that we're learning about the ways that God made us for attachment, the ways that we are wounded when we experience trauma, and the ways that God has wired us for resilience. How do we look at those in the context of the gospel and God's story for us?
Mary Ann McMillan: I know for me, I was thinking about this probably a few months ago. I don't want to be completely healed with an ed, because I will never be perfect. I want to constantly be healing one, because if I am healed, then I won't need a savior. and for me, I cannot live my life without having a relationship with the Lord and always constantly relying on him and having him in my life. I wouldn't be where I am today without my relationship with the Lord. And so for me, I'm just constantly learning, growing, having people invest and pour into me, and constantly just growing in my faith. and so I. I just. I. I want to always be healing. Yeah. I'm not sure if that answered your question. it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, it does. We're. We're not gonna. We're not gonna get any Nobel Prize for this, you know, and. And figuring out world peace. Like, these are tough things to wrestle with. But your honesty is refreshing, and it comes back to issues of identity and belonging and even just listening to your story. Mary Ann you told me, I'm the youngest of 11. I'm adopted. But you also talked about loss and having a new family. You have this biological family. You lived in Philadelphia. Now you have a new adopted family, but with only one or one or two. Only two. one other one of your siblings. Right. Just one. Just two of you were adopted, and now you have this new family in Georgia. And that doesn't mean, like, that you're no longer the youngest of 11. You still are, but that's gotta be really hard to live with a foot in both of those worlds. Like, which. Which face do you like when you go and you do introductions, like, okay, I'm one of 11. No, I'm one of two. Like, these are my parents. No, these are my parents. Like, that is really hard. How do you take those issues of identity and belonging? And how is the Gospel reframed that? Do you have a before and after? Like, where you struggled with your identity and one way before you knew Christ? And did you have a different understanding after you came to know the Lord?
Mary Ann McMillan: I think I'm still working through that, to be honest.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'd be disappointed if you weren't.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, I do. I'm living in two. I feel like I'm living in two different worlds. My, birth family, there's 11 of us, and I'm the youngest. And then in my adopted family, my biological mom had three, biological children that are actually 30 years older than me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Oh, wow.
Mary Ann McMillan: And so. So, yeah, so they're older enough to be my parents. Parents. Wow. And so trying to navigate both worlds, it is very complicated. You know, my. My identity is in Christ, but that's not all of who I am. and so, this, There's just so much more of who God created me to be that I needed to learn more about who I am. Like, embracing my black culture. I, was adopted by, my same race, family. but I grew up in predominantly white spaces. And so I've walked through life of wanting to be white, but knowing that I am black, and God made me black on purpose. And really loving who God created me to be has been a big part of my story. Really loving and embracing my culture, and didn't really get that until probably my late 20s, early 30s. I'm now in my 40s, so it took me that long to really start embracing who I am. And so there's so many different parts of my identity that I'm still learning and growing in. but firsthand, I am, I am a child of God. My identity is in Christ. But he also wants me to explore all of these other areas of who he created me to be.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And how does that connect to your sense of belonging? Do you feel what is. What is. What was that journey like for you? Just, growing up into where you are today? I'm sure you've had ebbs and flows and messy backs and forths. And, you know, I think sometimes people look at this journey like it's just linear, like you just start here and then you end up up here. But I'm sure that it's. That it's more loopy than that. What, how. Does, how. How has your journey impacted your view of belonging? And what do you want other people to know about how to help people feel a sense of belonging?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, belonging for me is, is me wanting to be seen and heard. and so I have, ah, probably in the last 15 or so years, I have surrounded myself with people who can see me for who I am and will actually listen to me, listen to my voice. And that is one thing that adoptees really want people to know, is to listen to our stories, learn from our experiences. because we want to be fully known not who we were in the past, but who we are today. yes, our past still affects us, and we need to know, know that. But there's so much more of who we are today. but for me, I just am a fierce advocate for making sure I am seen and heard, but also making sure others are seen and heard also, which is why I'm, always doing either mission trips or humanitarian trips, to help people, to help vulnerable populations be seen and heard. And so for me, that is what belonging means for me, is for me to be seen and heard in spaces or with people that are in my life. And there have been times where I have had to let go of friendships or move away from certain people because they weren't able to see me or embrace me for, for who I am. and so that has been really hard for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That is really hard for a lot of kids who experience trauma, whether that's adoption, loss, you know, foster care, whatever. Whatever kind of childhood trauma that can be. But especially for kids in. In foster care, what I see just from my experience in m. Interacting with people, with kids as a healthcare professional, is that these kids almost become chameleons, Mary Ann Like, if they have different placements, you. You get into a home and you think, okay, this is this home, this community, this social ecosystem, like this sibling structure, whatever it is. And you immediately, you're wired to start thinking about your safety. Like, what do I need to say? What do I need to do here? How do I need to blend in so that I can feel safe? And then you may have these different ident. Like, okay. And then you don't even know. Like, I see a lot of kids who become adults, and you'll think, like, what is your. Who are you really? What's your favorite food? Like, what's your favorite movie? And they're like, what's your favorite food? What's your favorite movie? Because I like what you like. Because that's how they've learned to keep them safe. How can we help kids who are in foster care to discover who they are and to be seen and known and loved just as God created them to be? Be.
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes. So my. One of my favorite verses is, just kind of being the voice for the voiceless. and we have, I say we, as adoptees and former foster youth, we. We've gone through season. So m. So much of our life, people are speaking for us, making decisions for us, being our voice. But there comes a time and place where we have to learn and, we have to find our own voice. we have to know how to advocate for ourselves. And so I think parents, advocates, those that are working with, this population, help them find their voice early, help them stand up for themselves, advocate for themselves and learn who they are early so that later on in life they're not trying to figure out who I am. Where do I fit in in this world? Where do I fit in in this life? Because they already know who they are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Are.
Mary Ann McMillan: and so I didn't. I. I didn't get that as a child, but I got that as an adult from being in therapy or having people within church settings, you know, let me know what my spiritual gifts are. where can I, you know, serve in the world just based off of things that they were seeing in my life. And that has been really helpful for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I appreciate your honesty. With that, Mary Ann because what I see, a lot of kids, they. They feel if they're in a foster care and adoption journey, they feel like, oh, I can't say, like, like, oh, I actually, the. The favorite meal that I came into this family, I actually really, really don't like. But I can't say that because I'm supposed to be grateful that I have a placement, that I have a family that loves me, and I don't want to say anything to disrupt that. And that's just like any family with any kids, because every kid is made beautifully, wonderfully unique in the image of God. And so embracing each kid's strengths, like saying, that's part of resilience, that's such a big part of resilience, is helping kids to be confident and competent, gifts and skills that they bring to the family. And you just brought up such a great way that we can do that by talking about their spiritual gifts. I see God equipping you with this gift. I see this is something that you can serve your family, you can serve your community and serve the world with that. That's a really exciting thing to hear, no matter what your, childhood background is. And the thing is, healing rarely happens because somebody in your life, life just says, oh, the perfect thing at the perfect time. It happens through consistent love and safe relationships, honest conversations, and most of all, the faithful presence of people who are just willing to stay and reflect that God does that. After the break, we'll talk about what parents and churches and grandparents and teachers and even entire communities can do to become one of those healing places will be right with more from Mary Ann McMillan. Do you believe in the absolute inerrancy of God's holy word? Do you believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to radically change lives and empower us to live like Christ? At Wesley Biblical Seminary, we believe God is raising up a movement of people across our nation and across the world who hold fast to the authority of the Bible and. And the hope of holiness. We are working today to equip tomorrow's pastors and Christian leaders through biblical and theological education in practical ministry that's accredited, affordable, online, and highly personal. Our programs include undergraduate, masters and doctoral degrees, certificate programs, and even training for lay people. So whatever your next step is in being equipped for ministry, we're here for you. And if you believe these are the kinds of pastors we need leading our churches in the future, we invite you to learn more about partnering with us through giving. Learn more about Wesley Biblical Seminary by visiting us at wbs.edu today.
Waymaker by Michael W. Smith and Vanessa Campagna: I worship you. I worship you. You are here working in this place. I worship you. I worship you. You are way make miracles, miracle work, promise keep light in the darkness, my God, that is who you are. M way make miracle work, promise keeper light in the darkness, my God, that is who you are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back friends. That is way Waymaker by Michael W. Smith and Vanessa Campagna And that's what we're talking about today is God being a waymaker and making things beautiful from broken places. I'm talking today to Mary Ann McMillan. She's the author of Bridging Resilience, a guide to healing for adoptees and former foster youth families and the leaders who walk with them. And I'm speaking very honestly and very candidly and telling you, you the beginning of my pediatric nursing career, I saw a lot of well intentioned families who have a heart for adoption. That is God's heart. That is definitely a beautiful picture of gospel restoration. But at the same time we can't over romanticize it and make it super simplistic like it is a, happy ending. It still carries different burdens with it. Those burdens can be beautiful and God can use for good and to become blessings as he has a journey of restoration. And whether your family has experienced adoption or foster care or not, or maybe even this is one of those things where you just turned on the radio and thought, oh no, God is not telling me about foster care or adoption again. If that's you, well, hey, that's between you and the Lord. But every child everywhere, in every situation needs emotional safety. They need secure attachment. They need a place of belonging, to thrive and to fully step into who God has created them to be. And so the principles we're discussing today apply far beyond foster care. So for any kid that's experienced any hardship, maybe they've lost a parent, maybe they have gone through a divorce, maybe they've had a tragedy happen in their community, maybe they've witnessed violence or abuse or any number of things. Things. Mary Ann let's talk about what are some practical ways that parents can create emotional safety and secure attachment? Because I know I came from Gen X and basically the parenting strategy was summed up in three words, suck it up. Like that was what, that was what we did. And there was some good to that because we're pretty tough. But you know, now we see the pendulum swinging towards gentle parenting and maybe the other way. It's always like we're trying to find that balance in the middle, middle. What does every kid need for ideal emotional safety and secure attachment? Are you there, Mary Ann? Can you hear me?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, I can hear you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay.
Mary Ann McMillan: All right, great. Okay. All right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Just making sure. How can parents create emotional safety and secure attachment for their kids?
Mary Ann McMillan: Listening without judging, for one, but also just being willing to allow your child to share what they're going through, if they miss their birth family, being able to listen to them if they don't know their birth family, just listen to their stories. that's one thing that I, did not have growing up. My mom was really sweet. She never said anything negative about my birth family or my birth parents. It was always just positive, positive, wording, age appropriate conversations that we had when we did have them. but I think raising, children in the 90s, with her starting foster care in the 80s, she didn't have the tools and resources that we have today. there was no mention of trauma, none of that in her training. but those of you that are fostering now, you now have those resources. And so creating those spaces for your child to be able to speak freely, to share how they're feeling. But know that a lot of their trauma is going to show up in their behaviors and you have to know how to handle that. But know that their behaviors are acting out of the things that they're feeling that they can't necessarily, communicate.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Mary Ann you talked about your mom being well intentioned, your adopted mom being well intentioned, but perhaps ill equipped, as many were. You know, when we, when we do the best with what we know, and then when we know more, we do better. And so if there's anybody listening who feels like, oh, goodness, you know, maybe I didn't do the best that I could, just rest your head on your pillow knowing if you are doing the best that you can with what you know, God is faithful even in those places. And it's encouraging to me to see us know better and be equipped better and have just more of this vocabulary, be more mainstream to talk about how kids brains are wired and how we can really meet them in that space. And, and one of the things that's hard, I think, Mary Ann that all parents are wired today for immediate gratification. We want our kids to give us that immediate feedback loop that we're doing a good job as a parent. And when our kids experience trauma that's not easily fixed, that's not something that may ever be fully fixed this side of heaven. And when they have things like grieving for their birth parents, it, when those emotions come up, can feel really uncomfortable. For the adopted parents, thinking, am I not enough? Am I not doing enough? Am I failing at this? And all of a sudden it's like it just becomes about you. In that moment, the adult, instead of keeping the focus on the kid, like this is about the kid. And it's normal to have those things. You could be the best, the most trained, the most aware, the most divinely equipped adoptive parent in the whole world. And that loss and that grief is still going to be there. How do we get intentional in that space to recognize that those things can hurt and be comfortable in that healing space?
Mary Ann McMillan: Yes, that's a great question and a hard one. because a lot of times parents are not going to get that instant gratification. Honestly, they may never get it. They may never get the praise or the thank you, the. But you're not going to get that from a biological child either. you may have.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Sorry, Mary Ann all. And all the parents said, amen. That is so true. That's very rare. Good point.
Mary Ann McMillan: Don't expect us to be grateful if you're not going to get that from your biological. Biological children. But also, I tell parents this a lot. Please do, the job of walking through your own pain and hurt or things that you have gone through before. You step into the pain of your adopted or foster child because a lot of your, just struggles of, you know, infertility or, you know, childhood trauma that you may have gone through, work through that first so that you're not putting all of that on that child who's not going to be able to love and care for you the way that you need to be loved and cared for. And so growing up, my mom would always, call me weird or call me unique or, would have, some. Some negative words to describe me. And as I got older, I realized it was just her way of expressing that she wasn't able to connect with me. And we did have a conversation about it probably a couple years ago. I asked her, why did you always call me weird or tell me that I. I'm unique? And she actually admitted that. She was like, you're just so different from all of my other children. And she said, I just didn't know what to do with you. she said, you needed more guidance than you needed parenting. And, she said that was hard for me. And I think it was coming from a place of some. Maybe control, things that she has worked through in her life. And you can't parent all of your children the exact same way. And for me, I just didn't need that. And so she never really found the way to connect with me. And that's one thing I tell parents. Find different ways to connect with that child, child. If it's something that they love, a book, traveling, something like that, find way to connect with that child. You'll have a better relationship with that child.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. Adoption journey or no, you're. You're talking about struggles that all parents face. And that is, that's a really hard thing to do. And just figure out, okay, what do you need from me in this moment? And that's why I think prayer is such a big part of this journey. Mary Ann you've got to pray every day is very humbling. And know that, that, that his grace is sufficient for our weaknesses, for sure. And this extends from parenting Mary Ann to the church. And you really challenge churches to think beyond that placement day. Everybody gets really excited about that. I see lots of videos. I, I have lots of personal friends who have had their church really involved in that placement day, the journey up to that. We have the baby shower, we have the welcome, and then afterwards, like, kind of like, oh, this is not, not going how I thought it would be. This is a lot harder than I thought it would be. what does long term support look like from a church setting? What. Where do you see opportunity to really step in and minister?
Mary Ann McMillan: So interesting because you just listed off all of the things that we do for new parents. But there are so many adopted and foster parents where they don't get that baby shower, they don't get, you know, gifts or whatnot, and so show up in that way. find out who in your church is adopting or fostering and figure out what their needs are and to be there for them. 2. I know a lot of churches have special needs ministries, but does your special need ministry, equip. Are they equipped and trained to care for, children from traumatic backgrounds, those that are walking through foster care or have been adopted? Do you have, have training, to train your leaders on how to care for those families and for that child? otherwise you just take that child, put them in a special needs class, and then you just kind of move on. And it's like, wait, we need to take the opportunity to step back and figure out how to care for that population of children. and also, can we stop praising adopted families? Stop putting them on pedestals and telling them that, you know, they're perfect and they're great. And you know, on the outside they can. Parents are smiling and thanking them, but on the inside, they are struggling so much. And so figure out what those struggles are and how to come alongside those families and be with them long term, not just on that adoption day.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You're so right, Mary Ann I talk about this all the time where we put families up on a pedestal and then all of a sudden their fear, their greatest fear is falling off the pedestal that we put them on and having those social injuries that happen. And it can make the barrier just saying, hey, this isn't as beautiful or as miraculous as, you know, as you think that it is. Yes, it is beautiful. Yes, it is miraculous. But it's also broken and it's messy. And that is really important. M. And speaking of that brokenness and messiness, Mary Ann you. You talked from the very beginning how you originally wanted to write this book for kids, for adults who have been through the foster care system, who have been through an adoption journey. I think there's probably, I know there's people listening who have experienced this, that. And maybe to some extent, Mary Ann they're. They're wearing a little bit of a mask. Like, okay, yeah, like I can't, you know, walk into every circle in every space and drag this out. Like, you know, that's only like, oh, here, here, let me unpack all of the things that have happened to me. And to some extent you just kind of carry that with you in whatever circle you go. And maybe they're thinking, I've never really dealt with this adequately or never really felt an invitation to do that. That. What words of hope from a faith based reframe would you give to people who are walking with any variation of that, of that burden?
Mary Ann McMillan: Well, for one to know that you're. You don't have to do life alone. if you are plugged in with a local church, church, or if you have just a great community that you're involved with, rely on that community. share, if you feel safe enough, share what you're walking through. That's what, that's what the church is for. That's what your community is for. And I think that we, just as humans, feel like, we have to hide, the things that we're walking through. Are we going through, through. And it's like, you don't have to hide that. Share that with people. get plugged in with a local church, get plugged in with a, fitness gym or something so that you have some type of outlet to help you during these hard seasons. but just know that you don't have to do this alone.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a beautiful thing. I really appreciate your authenticity. You can tell Mary Ann this really comes from your. Your heart. This is a journey that you have walked yourself. What is the thing that you've learned about God the most in this journey? In your own personal journey, what have you learned about God's character?
Mary Ann McMillan: Loving. So. Loving, so caring. Incredible provider. and that, he just. He loves me. He cares so much for me. and during those hard seasons, that he's still just here for me. and. And one thing I want people to know is that I'm not a success story. I am still grieving. I'm still in therapy every week. I'm, taking anxiety meds from the things that I'm struggling with in life. But God is just constantly reminding me that I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to live this life on my own. And when I'm in the space of. Of feeling lonely, feeling isolated, that he is by my side every single step. Well, Mary, constantly trusting him.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Amen to that. People might get mad at me because, you know, I love to mention Christmas year round, but I'm thinking of a verse from Isaiah that says that God is that he sent us Jesus as a wonderful counselor, everlasting father, mighty God, and the Prince of peace. And I can see that, that influence in your life. Thank you so much, Mary Ann for your scholarship, but your courage and sharing your own story so that other people can find the language for theirs. And one of the most encouraging truths to me from today's conversation is that resilience is not pretending that wounds never happened or some instant healing. It's discovering that healing is possible because we were never meant to walk alone. And maybe the greatest gift that we can give our kids as parents is the not perfection. It is presence and consistency. Remember that God sets the lonely and families. And whatever your situation, I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. I'll see you next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Dr. Mary Ann McMillan joins Jessica to talk about her lived experience as a foster child and
an adoptee and what she has learned about bridging resilience.
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