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Prescribing Hope For Healthy Families Exploring Mental Health Faith And The Messy Middle
Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the
: Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends. Welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing hope for healthy families. And we have a great talk on hope today. We're talking about it through the lens of mental health. Now, mental health is actually kind of a contentious conversation these days. And I always see in everything there's always a pendulum swinging where, you know, we were, we went through the suck it up gener, like the you're fine, just, you know, put, put a band aid on it and go about your Business to the over medicalizing every emotion. But there is a healthy, balanced balance in the middle. It is one of the most discussed topics in our culture, but it is honestly one of the most misunderstood. We know that we are seeing anxiety and depression impact people. It also impacts marriages and families and children and teenagers and communities and even churches. And for Christians, there's another layer to the conversation makes mental health discussions so complex. Because sometimes the question isn't simply, what's happening to me, what am I experiencing? But it's what's wrong with my faith? If I really trusted God, would I feel this way? Shouldn't prayer be enough? Does my faith need to be stronger? Is seeking help or therapy? Does that mean that I don't trust God? These questions can leave people suffering not only from anxiety or depression, but also shame about having those experiences of anxiety or depression. Now, millions of Americans experience these conditions each year. The CDC data tells us that almost 20%, about 1 in 5, just a little less than 1 in 5 of U.S. adults, have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. And the same for a depressive disorder. And it is happening. And when we look at the world today, it's no wonder it's a tough place to be. It's a broken world. And there's wisdom in finding the middle ground between two extremes. A culture that sometimes medicalizes every difficult emotion or turns ordinary sadness or stress or grief or disappointment into a, diagnosis or a reason for therapy. There's that side of the equation and the Christian response on the other side that sometimes says, hey, therapy is inherently always harmful and faith should be the only answer always. And that is where we're going to talk about in the messy middle of that. And just as we use healthcare providers to care for our bodies, there are skilled mental health care professionals, especially those with a Christian worldview or those who respect that of yours. Under can help you understand patterns and develop healthy skills and process trauma and address genuine mental health conditions and recognize that normal range of human emotion, but also seeking appropriate care when we need to. And that's why I was so interested in this new book that is coming out tomorrow, I believe is the launch date. It's called Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A Biblical and Practical Guide for Christians Walking through the Darkness. And we have today, with us both authors, we have Hope Blanton, a licensed clinical social worker. She is a co founder of At His Feet Studies and Councils in Private practice in San Antonio, Texas. And Christine Gordon, a theologian, a Bible teacher, and the co founder of At His Feet Studies and she's an adjunct professor at Covenant Theological Seminary. So we're going to talk about this health and faith and this intersection. Hope and Christine, I'm delighted to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Christine Gordon: Oh, we're so glad to be here.
Christine Gordon: Yeah. What a great intro. Thank you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, this is a space where I am, you know, I mean really, you've got the social worker, you've got like the primary care provider, we've got the theologian in the room. Kind of sounds like it's the start of a joke, but mental is no joke for sure. I'm not going to tell any jokes about that because there is a really real tension there. So let's just hear a little bit of each one of your personal stories and Hope, I'm going to pick you first just because your name is Hope. So let's start there with some M. Hope, tell us your story and your calling and then Christine will hear from you.
Christine Gordon: Yeah, so,
My journey with mental health started in my early 20s
my journey with mental health started, you know, really in my early 20s and I just kind of didn't know what was happening. And as a Christian, I'd become a believer a couple years before that. And so I really spent a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on with me. And then I had a lot of great believers around me, a Christian psychologist that walked me through it and so many people that poured into me and helped me take my faith in this struggle and make sense of it. and that laid a foundation for years and years and years of up and down struggle and all of that. And so it would, you know, and then now obviously as a therapist, I walk a lot of Christians through this. so that's really been the journey. And Krish and I, you know, we always joke. I'm the anxiety part of the book, she's the depression part of the book. So we really understand the whole spectrum. personally and also then as Christians, me as a clinician and her as a theologian.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, thanks for sharing so transparently. Christine, what, what has your story been of the, of the sadness part of this duo here?
Christine Gordon: that's right. I'm like the little blue ball that you've all seen. So, so a little bit similar in that I didn't have words, I didn't know how to articulate what was happening when I was young and in adolescence. And then when I got through college and to seminary, actually I had some people who really helped me, great Christian counselor, shout out to her, who gave me some language and helped me understand what was happening. And what was so helpful for me is I had lots of people around me who gave me a framework to start to understand, and it gave me a good biblical theology of anxiety and depression. Like, how did we get here in the first place? And therefore, what can we do to push back against the effects of the fall? All that was very, very helpful. And, you know, I never necessarily thought we would be talking or writing about anxiety and oppression. I just love to teach the Bible. But Hope and I have been friends for a really long time. This has always been part of our conversation and part of our friendship. And so this book sort of just evolved over time out of our personal lives and our friendship together. And we, like she said, we've both been given so much encouragement, so much help from clinicians, theologians, pastors, friends, and we. We want to give that help to other people and that Hope, you know, Christine, it's so.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's so strange to me because if someone gets strep throat and they say, oh, I have strep throat. I can't, you know, come to church today. People don't automatically say, oh, you have strep throat. Like, aren't you gonna pray that away? Like, what's wrong with your face? How did you. How did you get that? Because obviously something's wrong with your faith, but yet we do that with anxiety or depression. And I find in my clinical practice, people get excited when they get strep throat because it's a definitive diagnosis. It turns, you know, that little strip positive. You get the pink stuff and you're feeling better by tomor.
But anxiety and depression are so much more in the messy middle
But anxiety and depression is so much more in the messy middle. And I think, especially for parents, if you're going to. If I. If I start to approach that space and say, you know, I can see some signs of anxiety or depression. It's like we take it on immediate, like, well, I'm not being a good parent, or I'm not being a good Christian. Like, I don't have a good faith. Why do you think, Christine, that we jump to that so fast?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, I think there are a couple reasons, and that's for a long time why I. I was really hesitant to take medication for a really long time or to do any kind of treatment for depression myself. I think it's several things. One of them is there's still a stigma and has been for a really long time, but still stigma, around anything that has to do with mental health in the church. I think another is because of exactly what you said. Anxiety doesn't grow in a petri dish. And there's not one specific antibiotic that you can give it to kill it. And so it. I think those two things kind of come together, and they make us, they make us nervous. They make it kind of this mysterious part of life. It has to do with the mind and the heart, which we always put in the faith category, which we should. They are. But because of that, we're scared to walk into places that don't feel like they originated in the church. And I think one of the most helpful things to think about is just like you would give a patient that, antibiotic. That antibiotic is a gift from God, just like you would talk about blood pressure medication or any other kind of treatment. And if we can start thinking about tools in the mental health world like we do tools in the medical world, then we get a whole new kind of freedom, and we unleash them from this mysterious, scary. They're going to pull us away from God, make us weak Christians. And then they start being in the category which they should be, which is these are tools from a good God who can comfort us through lots of means.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's really well said. And Hope. You're the clinician, part of this duo, and I'm sure that you see new patients who walk in, and it feels like just that barrier of just going the first time. Like, once you go, then people can figure out sometimes it's not a good fit, and you really have to work to find that good fitness fit for you. But that first barrier of even just saying, like, okay, I'm gonna go for professional counseling, that feels like it's a, about a wall that's like 12ft tall. What do you want people to know to lower the barrier to that, to make it more accessible and easy to reach out and say, okay, maybe I'll. I'll give this a try and see if I need to get some help.
Hope Blanton: Well, I think for Christians in particular, where I see the resistance is usually because they feel like they're going to dishonor God somehow, that they're either dishonoring him, that they're struggling with depression or anxiety in the first place, because they feel like, isn't that a heart issue? Or is my thoughts not right? That's. That's my own problem. Right? Because we see that so much of the scripture, the scripture encouraging us to submit those things to Christ. And so I think sometimes they feel like going to a therapist feels like they're. They're dishonoring the Lord. Somehow, or they're jumping into some area that's. That's not under his umbrella, as opposed to seeing that God uses all these things in order to bring redemption and push against things that are broken in us. Just like he uses you, you know, in your practice. and in that moment with the, with the patient who has strep, you know, they were so thankful for those antibiotics. God is doing the same work when he equips, you know, Clint. Clinicians, mental health professionals with skills and tools and understanding the human heart and mind and how to help it in this particular area of suffering. So helping them to see that, oh, this isn't some weird, you know, thing that's, like, not okay or unsanctioned. It's like, it's just God blesses it and uses it just as much as he uses that dentist that cleans your teeth or, you know, that doctor who helped identify your heart issue. and then I think it kind of takes away, like, Krish is saying, some of that, that weird miss, you know, mystery part of it, but kind of lowering that barrier and helping believers see that this is a tool that the Lord is giving because he loves you and he wants to help you in your suffering and seeing it as that, as opposed to it's a way to dishonor him while you're suffering.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Hope.
What are some ways that you would advise families to seek counseling?
Dr. Jessica Peck: What are some ways that you would advise families to seek counseling? Because there's so many different places that they can go. I mean, you're a licensed clinical social worker, and I think there's still a lot of. Who don't realize that, you know, licensed clinical social workers are very engaged in the counseling space. But there are counselors, there's psychologists, there's psychiatrists, there's primary care physicians, there's, primary care other clinicians, there's nurse practitioners in mental health. I mean, there's all kinds of. Of, you know, help. I personally recommend people start with their primary care provider because hopefully that's somebody they can trust and know what they recommend. But there's a lot of parents especially, who are really afraid. Like, I'm going to encounter some crazy person who's going to tell my kids something, you know, that's really terrible. Yes, yes. So how do you. How do you help them to take some practical steps to vet that source of help and to, you know, put some of that fear, down a little bit.
Christine Gordon: That makes sense. And first of all, the fear makes sense. And it's okay that we have that fear, but we need to push past it. Two things I Recommend is for people, yes, to ask their doctors if they trust their doctors. I also usually really, suggest that they ask people in their church community, ask their pastors, ask their small group leaders, do they know of any, therapists or counselors that people have trusted that have gone to and have felt like they've given good counsel. and I usually try to have them work in those networks if they can. And also the second thing I would say is most therapist. And yes, you're right, there's a lot of different words and a lot of different names and usually that means just different types of training. Some people like myself who have a license, I've done 3,000 hours of supervision before I was allowed to have my license versus maybe someone who had didn't have to do any supervision. There's just all those little things that can get confusing, which we do talk about in the book. But the second thing I suggest is most people will do a 10 to 15 minute free phone call with you to before you even step into their office. And sometimes I will get people on the phone who will say to me, listen, I'm a believer, I'm a Christian. Like, I'm a real, like for real. Like it's really important to me.
Christine Gordon: I love it.
Christine Gordon: Is it important to you in that way? You know, and I always say them, yes, Jesus is the most important person to me. But you know, I think that's fair. You know, they get to ask whatever they want to ask in that phone call and then they can see, okay, let me see if I. And then they go in for that one session and then they can see how that feels and go from there. But I think that like asking your network, your faith network, your doctor, if you trust them, but you know, hey, has anybody gone to anybody here? Did they trust them? Do they like them? How did they deal with their faith in the intersection with mental health? And the second thing is make a phone call first and then even say something like, hey, I'm gonna send my 13 year old and I'm a little concerned about.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm gonna hold you right there, Hope because. Because I'm gonna hold you right there because we're already at our first break. But that is exactly the kind of question that we, they are asking. We'll be right back with more from Hope Blanton and Christine Gordon. Hope for the anxious and depressed. See you right after this break. Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. Ah. Did you know that this content is listener supported
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Oh But God by Davy Flowers : I needed oh, but God resurrected my heart from the ruins and my rescue came through like some morning and now this is my sure testimony Over God over God Mention my mercy how you love me too much to let me stay long.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is oh, but God by Davy Flowers. But God are, my two favorite words together ever. And the history of the English language. Oh, but for God. But for the grace of God. We live in a world that is messy and broken and where we are sick and our spirits can be broken, our minds can be broken, our bodies can be broken. But here's the good news. Experiencing emotional or mental health struggles is not automatically evidence of spiritual failure. And really, one of the most compassionate things the church can do is create an environment where people don't have to hide their pain or their struggle. Because when shame enters that conversation, people may become less willing to tell someone they're struggling. And that can keep them from getting the support they need. And that can lead to all kinds of things that are just a road of heartache. And we're talking today. I'm talking to Hope Blanton and Christine Gordon. I said the book launches tomorrow, but good news, it went out into the world yesterday, so you can get a copy of it today. It is Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A, biblical and practical guide for Christians walking through the darkness. And I really appreciate this because I think there are a lot of secular resources out there, but
There's not a lot of Christian resources that integrate mental health and faith
there's not a lot of Christian resources that integrate mental health and faith. And so, Hope, I'm going to go back to you because you were right in the middle of saying something about, you know, parent being worried about their 13 year old and walking in and, and saying it's okay to ask, like, what is your worldview? I need to know if we're aligned before we engage on this, adventure together. I'm gonna let you finish your thought exactly.
Hope Blanton: So if you, let's say you make a phone call about your 13 year old, you can say on that 10 to 15 phone call the therapist, hey, this area is really, faith is really important to me particularly I want to know your framework for what do you do if the kid says this or what are you going to do if they bring up this? Like, tell me a little bit about how you handle that, you know, whatever area that is hot button. Pick a hot button topic. and that's a fair question to ask. And then you as a parent can weigh what that means for you, what it means for your kid, and whether that's the right fit.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Christine, let's go back to you and talk about kind of the holistic matter of it. Because we do often compartmentalize ourselves. Like we. We treat the body with this person, we treat our spiritual life. We're gonna talk about that at church. We address emotions, maybe, you know, with a counselor, maybe at home with somebody we care about. But human beings, God made body, mind, and spirit. And I tell you, it'll be very easy for me to nerd out on brain science, because I feel like I can't even learn. I can't learn enough. The more that I learn, I'm like, wow, God is amazing. The way that he created our brains for survival, for coping, for repair, the way that he protects us. But that all goes together. I would love for you to give us a theologian's perspective on, not compartmentalizing that, on treating it. It's. It's faith and, and emotions and physical health and psychological health. You can't separate those out one from the other.
Christine Gordon: That's right.
Christine Gordon: Yeah.
Christine Gordon: I. The first time talk about nerding out, the first time I learned about neuroplasticity and the fact that our brains can change, I just was like, I mean, I just thought, what is happening right now? How do we not know about this? It is amazing. Our brains are amazing. And I think in order to truly understand, before we get all the way to treatment or even in naming things and diagnosis, we got to go all the way back to creation and think about the fact that God did create us as. As embodied humans, and he doesn't separate these things in creation. He doesn't talk about, now I'm going to create the spiritual part of you. Now I'm going to create the physical part of you. Now I'm going to work on your neurotransmitters. Right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's kind of funny.
Christine Gordon: Stage by stage. Right, Right. He creates Adam from the dust and then Eve, and we are whole creatures just like that. We come in all of our nuance and complexity. And so if that is true, and if his jurisdiction and his power is as wide as creation, then that means next that the consequences of the fall are also as wide as creation.
So it wasn't just our hearts that fell: it was our neurotransmitters...
So it wasn't just our hearts that fell. It was our neurotransmitters. It was Our hormonal systems, it was our autonomic nervous systems. It was every part of that creation that you put on that flannel graph on Sunday morning. All of it fell to the atomic level. And we have to think about the wide stretch of the fall in order to really understand and have, have a biblical view of mental illness and what happened. Especially when we talk about anxiety and depression because, we think about them just as a heart falling. And it's much broader than that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It is much broader than that. It does involve our brains. And sometimes we need those clinical practices, like what HOPE provides. And there's certain therapies that are shown to be really effective. Like, for example, for children. The, the first line therapy for anxiety and depression is something called cognitive behavioral therapy. Now, that's not an explicitly Christian practice, but when I look at it, I think this is a biblical worldview. It's talking about taking every thought captive and it's talking about renewing your mind, and that's really where it's going. So sometimes you need some of those skills, but you also do need the spiritual healing. You do need the faith part of it. Having a mental health struggle can really shake your faith. And sometimes, you know, I talked with, with Hope about the barriers being high to accessing mental health care, but sometimes you feel like, okay, well, that's just something separate that I'm doing. But I can't talk about this at church. I don't want people to know I'm in therapy. I don't want them to judge me. And so I just kind of am, I'll work on that on my own, but I don't talk about it.
The Church's Role In Supporting Mental Health Care And Vetting Professional Help
And that's a disservice to what can the church do better to help support people who do need some level of professional therapy and still feed them spiritually?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the, one of the biggest things the big C church can do is first to have this conversation. What you're doing right now is to name it for what it is and, and to acknowledge that it's not a lack of faith. When you come to your pastor or your Bible study leader or your whoever in your church and say, hey, I'm really struggling with anxiety. That is actually a step of faith. Because what you're doing is saying to this person, I want to, I want help from the Lord in this place, in whatever form he wants to give it to me. And I know that I am an embodied human. And so part of that help is going to come as spiritual help. Some of it might come as physical help, some of it might come in another way. Some of them might come in Hope's office. And I think one of the best pieces of news we have as the church for the world wide world is that we don't have to separate those things. We don't have to choose one or the other or say, you know, you can get physical help, but you're not really allowed to talk about this in church because redemption and Jesus's work of healing, pushing back the effects of the fall, which includes so much suffering in every way. His help is as wide as the world, which means we can accept every, we can use so many different tools. And we don't have to hide because like you said at the beginning of the show, I would never hide or be embarrassed about the fact that I have. I am on an antibiotic, whatever it is. My husband had a heart attack at 43. He takes 13 pills a day. He doesn't have to hide that at church. It's, it's a sign of weakness. Yes, because he's a weak, fragile human living in a body that's broken by the fall. And I think part of the good news of the gospel is that the, the church is for broken people and we forget that.
Christine Gordon: Right.
And the church is for all kinds of brokenness...including spiritual, physical, all the things
Christine Gordon: And the church is for all kinds of brokenness, including spiritual, physical, all the things. So we have the best news ever because we actually have an explanation for what has gone wrong with these magnificent bodies that Jesus put together. And we have compassion to give to people who are hurting in this particular kind of suffering, which. It is a particular kind of suffering. So I think, how can the church help? They can name this as suffering because it is. And they can say, I'm so glad you're here and there's help for you. I think it's one of the, one of the best things that I ever heard is when someone told me, Jesus is not ashamed of you in your suffering because we experience so much shame already. And to know that the great physician not only has compassion on you, but has, you know, in his hand ten different ways at any moment that he can offer comfort to you is just really good news for a lot of people who are hurting.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That, that's really encouraging hope. Let's swing it back to the clinical way because, you know, we talked about the spiritual side of it, but let's talk about what happens when you know, you need help but you wait and you don't get help early. And I know you see people like this all the Time. One of the things I love about being a nurse practitioner is, is looking at holistic health. So when, you know, even when my kids come to me and they say, like, oh, I'm feeling anxious, you know, I had had four teenagers at once, so that happened a lot. And I start saying, okay, are you, are you well hydrated? Are you drinking enough water? No, they're drinking caffeine. Are you sleeping well? No, I'm not sleeping enough at night. I'm like, are you practicing sleep hygiene? Are you, you know, looking at your screen before you go to sleep? Yes, I'm doing that. Well, what are you eating? Are you eating nutritious foods? Are you moving your body? Are you talking to people? Are you going outside and touching grass in the morning? And they're saying, no, no, no. And I'm like, well, that makes sense that you would feel that way. But once you move past those, you do a holistic health assessment and you've tried, maybe you've tried some faith things, thinking, okay, I need to give this to the Lord, I need to pray about this. Like, I need to, you know, be more serious about my health. And yet these symptoms persist. And you, what you're seeing is the emergence of really a clinical diagnosis. It's disrupting your everyday life. But you don't go to get help. What are the consequences of waiting and what are the advantages of just going earlier?
Hope Blanton: Yeah. I mean, you've made a great point, by the way. All of those rhythms you mentioned do help with anxiety and depression, whether you have a diagnosable anxiety or depression disorder or whether you just are struggling as a human. But the consequences of waiting is just like it is waiting, you know, to go get that tooth checked out in your mouth. By the time you get there, you might need a root canal. Right? We just, we've exacerbated and expanded. I know we've expanded the problem sometimes and, but not even that. It also, it's just, it is, it is burdening you in a way that the Lord doesn't want. Like, it is, it is pressing on you in a way that he wants to alleviate. So in some ways it's like some of the biggest consequences that you're missing out on. Some of that comfort from the Lord that He gives through counseling or intervention with a doctor, all those things, but it absolutely can exacerbate it. But if you go and you take that, that brave step of meeting with someone or all those different things, then you find relief and joy and refreshment. Not immediately, but Just comfort. I mean, I can't tell you how helpful it is or how for myself, but even with my clients, when I'm like, hey, this is what's going on. Here's, here's it. And God's here with us and he's going to help you. I mean, they're just like, like, that's hope, right? They just feel a sense of hope and comfort. And so it's just like a relief in the midst of. So instead of just feeling lost in your own mind and so sad or so heavy or so anxious and on edge, it takes that down and it calms it down a little bit. Not all the way, but it calms it down. And so that's the beauty of getting that help is that it, it makes a difference. And then not getting it just makes, exacerbates it and also just prolongs suffering that you don't have to prolong.
Dr. Jessica Peck: The other thing that I see hope is that when people are suffering, they will try to cope, they will try to self medicate. Now sometimes that's, you know, just numbing out. Like sometimes it's an addiction, sometimes it's alcohol, sometimes it's, you know, prescription medications, sometimes it's risk taking behaviors. You know,
There are all kinds of ways that we can cope in an unhealthy way
there are all kinds of ways that we can cope in an unhealthy way. And the longer that you do that, the more your brain is going to be wired to say like, okay, well this is what we do when we feel anxious and that unhealthy pattern become entrenched and it impacts your relationships with your family. That's the other thing from a science perspective, right, about why it's good to go early, even if it's just for a season, just for a little tune up. Maybe you just need a few sessions just to get realigned. You can do that, right?
Hope Blanton: Yeah, yeah. I've been, I've been amazed when I get certain, men in my office who are struggling with some addiction issues, how much it's rooted in anxiety. You know, they thought it was rooted in this and they're like, oh, I didn't even know there was such a thing as anxiety, let alone that. Like, that's what was driving me to this. Oh my goodness. So then when we start treating the anxiety, this issue, it changes. And so absolutely, people will do something to manage. Right?
Understanding Mental Health From A Clinical And Spiritual Perspective God's Plan For Healing
That's what humans do. We're very creative. But a lot of times the management is not good. it's kind of whatever we can get our hands on. And right now we know it's our phones for sure. So absolutely. It's just, it's like you have this problem. You can manage it this way or this way. Let's get over here. So this doesn't turn into a secondary problem that's causing all kinds of havoc in your life because your, your primary problem was just that you were anxious.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, really hearing you speak about that like a clinician, hope is really, is really helpful because sometimes when we're just in our own situation, your, your vision is really clouded, you can't see yourself very well. And to have somebody objective, you know, really walking through some of those things and be able to uncover some root causes. The other thing that I see a lot, hope, and I'm sure you see this too, is that sometimes it uncovers like family trauma, generational trauma that's happened, and you cope like your dad coped or you cope like your mom coped, and you don't even realize that it's dysfunctional because that's just what we do. And we see these kinds of generational playbook lines, you know, passed down from parent to parent. Like we all intuitively know that asking a kid, screaming in their face, what were you thinking? Is not really helpful. And yet we all do it. So having, you know, some intentional therapy, I think is really important. Well, listen, we're already coming up on our second break, but when we come back, Christine, I want to dive in and talk more about the spiritual practices that are science based, that are evidence based, they're science supported to really be able to help with mental health struggles. And that is something that's discussed even in secular literature. You can say that those faith practices, generally speaking, really do make a difference. And so we can pray and we can see a therapist, we can open scripture and we can talk with a counselor. We can trust God and also trust that he has put people on this earth to help us in our point of need. And we can recognize that asking for help doesn't mean that we've lost our faith or that we've stopped trusting God. The goal isn't to create this competition or separation between faith and clinical care. It's just to see us as God made us, body, mind and spirit. So when we come back, we'll talk more about spiritual practices and how families can really show up well for someone who is struggling.
We'll be right back with hope for the anxious and depressed
We'll be right back with hope for the anxious and depressed. See you on the other side of this break.
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Speak Life by TobyMac: Some days life feels perfect. Other days it just ain't working. The good, the bad, the right, the wrong and everything in between. Yo, it's crazy, amazing, amazing. We can turn our heart through the words we say Mountains crumble with every syllable broken Live or die so speak life, speak life to the dead and darkest night Speak life, speak light when the sun will shine and you don't know why look into the eyes of the brokenhearted Watch them come alive as soon as you speak Hope you speak Speak love you speak you speak. M.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Speak Life by TobyMac and that's what we're talking about today. How do we speak life? How do we speak life to someone who feels like maybe the life is just draining out of them? Someone who's struggling with mental health, health conditions? I'm talking today to Hope Blanton and Christine Gordon, the co authors of a new book that just came out yesterday called Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A Biblical and Practical Guide for Christians Walking through the Darkness. And I love this collaborative approach. I love the spiritual health of it and also the mental health and sometimes hope and Christine, you know, we're not walking through our own anxiety or depression journey. And you know, I've never experienced anxiety personally and in this kind of way. And sometimes it can be really hard. Like, I know I can see what it looks like, but I haven't walked in those shoes. But maybe I'm watching it happening and maybe you're watching it happen to your spouse or your friend or your parent or your child or someone who's sitting beside you in church and you're asking like, what do I say? Because you don't want to minimize their pain, but you don't want to make everything about fixing them and what I see a lot of times is that when we, somebody discloses a health, a mental health struggle to us, they say, yeah, I, I'm, under treatment for anxiety or depression or whatever else it might be, whatever numerous kinds of mental health conditions. I find that all of a sudden we just are, we become toddlers and the whole world is about us. And we're like, oh, this is the pop quiz moment. I'm supposed to say something super spiritual right here. I'm supposed to have the right verse and say something really wise and really sage and not anything that's going to make them feel bad or feel worse. And, and so then we just give the best that we have, but it's often not very good. It's well intentioned, but that just is a tough position for people to be in. Christine, let's start with you from a spiritual perspective. Let's say somebody, you know, discloses to, to us in the context of a, A, close relationship, a friendship, a family relationship, that you have a mental health struggle. What is a good response in that moment?
Christine Gordon: I think first maybe to just treat them like a human and say, wow, thanks for telling me. I probably took some courage. And then just be quiet. You know, I think it's. They don't, they're not asking you to be their therapist. They just are trusting you to hold something about them. And so I think it's dignifying to just say, hey, thanks for telling me. or you can just say, I'm sorry it's been a struggle, you know, and I don't know that you have to say a whole lot more than that. Part of what they will know is how they're accepted by your actions. Beyond that, you know, and that you don't signal them out, you single them out, you don't avoid them, you don't get real awkward every time you see them after that, but that you just treat them like a human who's living with a certain kind of struggle. Like all their other struggles. I think that's one of the best responses.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It really is. And if anything else, if you ask them any questions,
The question that I recommend is how can I pray for you?
the question that I recommend is just how can I pray for you? I, haven't walked through that. I, I bet it looks like it's really hard. How can I pray for you? How can I support you and just ask and just listen. Because you said something really important just now, Christine, because sometimes we do, we feel like, oh, gosh, we have to be a therapist in this moment, but we don't. You have to Remember, like, they're reaching out to me as their friend, as their spouse, as their parent, and they need to know, like, yeah, I see this struggle in you, and God is still good and you are still worthy of love, and I am not going to leave you. That's really what they're looking for.
Christine Gordon: Hope.
Dr. Jessica Peck: what would you add to that? What do you think? What are practical ways that someone can support someone who's maybe even seeking a therapy journey? What is. What are ways that we can provide support for that?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, just kind of extensions of what you guys said, which is basically saying, what. What's helpful for me to do for you right now? How can I help you? Do you. Or what's not helpful? Is it unhelpful if I ask you every day if you're feeling depressed still? What do you need from me? What do you not need from me? And they may not know, so then you can give them some options. Would it be helpful for you if I asked our pastor or small group leader, whoever, about a recommendation for a therapist? Or what if we go see if it's, you know, let's go see your pediatrician, or maybe we, you know, that if it's a kid living in your household, or even if it's an adult child or even your spouse, would it be helpful for you if I went with you to the doctor or I went with you to, you know, drove with you in the car to counseling, or do you need me to cook you a meal, do laundry for you, or, you know, mow your lawn, depending if it's a friend. I mean, there's all these ways, you know, that we can come in in these practical ways. So it might be like, I can't be your counselor, but I can take your kids for a couple hours if you need a break because you're so anxious, or I can make you a meal. and just those are practical ways where we can enter in. And sometimes I think people think, oh, it's mental health. So I can't really enter in, in helpful ways. And that's not true. Just your presence. Just your presence. For someone who's struggling in this inside their head feels grounding to people and good and comforting. Yeah.
Christine Gordon: Because part of what they're asking is, will you still be with me if this is what's going on? And, and part of what you need them to know is, I'm not going anywhere. I'm right here with you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. I think that is a really important piece of it because there is so much shame that is associated with it and hope. Let's take it to another level. Let's. So let's say that when somebody is disclosing something to you, they're disclosing something to you that's really frightening. There may be disclosing thoughts of self harm. They are, you know, really, you can see that they're very distressed and maybe they'll even say they don't want help at what point? What, what does it look like to say, okay, this is the kind, loving, responsible thing to do. I'm going to connect you to help maybe even if you, you don't want it?
Christine Gordon: Yeah.
Hope Blanton: I think you make a great point. Anytime anyone's talking about harming themselves, whether they're saying that they feel suicidal or they've had thoughts of it or plans of it, what if they, if they even hint to any of that, you need to ask some questions and then just know that there's some immediate resources at your fingertips. There is a suicide hotline that you can Google quickly. I think they've recently changed the number. Someone's gonna pick up. 988. Thank you. Gonna pick up no matter what, any time of day. And so always make sure that you know. So if you're sitting there with your loved one or their friend, hey, let's call right now. Or also you can always take into a local er, any ER and say that we're here because of a mental health situation, this person is having some suicidal thoughts or you know, or is thinking about that behavior. But if you're not trained in that, just go to the people that are. That's why I recommended that the suicide hotline or the er, if you feel like they're immediate danger and if you' I don't know if they're immediate danger, then, then call and find people that can help you with that information. Whether it's a, like a doctor or someone you know that's trained that they know or anything like that to help you get that answer. But if you know, if you don't know, when in doubt, take them to, to a place that does know, like a local ER or phone number, you know, like calling the, the, the suicide hotline. But it's just one of those things that it's like people like, well, I tried to assess or I couldn't really tell or I didn't know what to ask them. Great, then get to them to someone who can. So that way you can keep them safe. and don't leave them alone until you have that conversation and, you know, make sure that they're in an environment where they can be kept safe until you figure out what the next steps are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes, I'm really glad that you said that, Hope, because I do know that sometimes people find themselves like that in a church situation. Whether it's maybe you're facilitating a youth group, you know, a life group or a women's, Bible study, and somebody's going to approach you. I just really want to say that it is okay if you're really concerned to. You need to access some form of help, whether that's going to your church leadership and saying, what is our policy here? What do we do? Or reaching out to a family member. And I'm always really honest with that person about it. And I say, you know, I really care about you, and what you shared with me is. Is really concerning, and I just will not rest until I make sure that you have access to some help and resources. So don't ever feel about doing that and making sure that people are safe. And especially if they mention, you know, if they mention having any suicidal thoughts, that that is always something that is urgent or even emergent, that you need to make sure that you don't leave them alone and you connect them to help. And if that's through the local emergency room, then that's where that is.
The Church's Role In Mental Health Care Embracing Lament And Holistic Healing
Christine, going back to the spiritual side of it, there is a real help, I think, when. When people disclose or that they're having a mental health struggle and a church environment in a church setting, and the church provides spiritual support, and they say, hey, yeah, we'll pray for you. Yeah, we will, you know, minister to your family, we will help you in some tangible ways. But when the church gives the, immediate connection to counseling services, whether that's a list of counselors, a personal recommendation, a celebrate recovery program that they run out of the church, a it when that. That. That connection is there, I find that people are much more likely to take that step and go because it has that. That blessing, so to speak, from the church.
Christine Gordon: What do you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: What do you think about that?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, I. I actually was an intake coordinator for a large counseling practice here in St. Louis for three years. And so I was the person who, when you called the number that your pastor gave you, I was the one who would answer and try to connect you with somebody. And so part of what I heard a lot of times was my pastor gave me this number, my ministry leadership gave me this number, my women's coordinator gave me this number. And so you have all these questions about, like we talked about earlier, is this going to be okay for my 13 year old daughter? And what you're asking is, have you vetted this person, are they safe? And when you're in a crisis and you don't know what is going to happen in the next 24 hours with your kid, what you want to know is this is a safe person, you can call them. Which is why if there are pastors listening, you know, you need to have all that network established before the crisis comes so that you have the number to give. And I think it's, it's such a comfort because then part of what the church is free to do, once they have said, hey, we're not, we're not licensed counselors, we're not the one who can prescribe you medicine, then they're free to do what the church is good at, which is offer lots of comfort and a bunch of other things that we don't necessarily think of as helpful when it comes to anxiety and depression. one of my favorite things to talk about is lament, which we don't always think of as a helpful practice. Yeah, but if you think about someone has gone, we talked a little bit about trauma before, someone who's gone through a traumatic event. Part of I think what the message we sometimes get in our churches is, well, you better be quiet about that. Because Christians are called to be full of joy and full of hope and to live by faith. All that is true. But also the Bible gives us, in the book of the Psalms, a third of the Psalms are lament psalms because God knows we're living in a world that is broken. And we're going to need templates of prayers and songs for when terrible things happen that we have words to say to him about all the carnage and the disappointment and the pain. And that's what those lament psalms are. So I think, you know, hope has used lament in her clinical practice sometimes. We've done retreats where we teach people to write their own laments. We, we did a Bible study on the book of Lamentations where they, we walk them through. Writing your own lament to God because is part of what that is, is being honest with your God who can handle your pain, who's not afraid to hear what's happened and all the anger behind it. And that is a spiritual practice that I don't think we have. We get permission to do enough in the church to take our pain somewhere so good.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Christine, what I see sometimes is Especially Christians who have gone through something traumatic and God really meets them where they are, and they see this as, this is my story, this is my testimony. You know, I went through this. Oh, but God, you know, like, we would listen to the song earlier by Davy Flowers, but I think it's okay to recognize that, hey, yeah, you can say, God is there with me. God saved me. But the way that our brains work, sometimes when we go through trauma, you can have a setback. You can grieve about that. You know,
I think about the story of Joseph in the Bible who endured much trauma, right?
I think about the story of Joseph in the Bible who endured much trauma, right? He was. Was sold as a slave by his brothers and then put in prison. And, you know, just all of this deception, animosity. And then when he sees his brothers, it's not like a made for TV moment. It says he withdrew to his rooms because he was overcome with emotion. He was sobbing. he was so upset. So he can see God at work, and yet he can also have a little emotional breakdown about it and cry about it and then come back and say, you know what. What you intended for evil, God intended for good, for the saving of many lives. So we'll hope. And, Christine, I think one of the most important messages that you have given families today is that we don't have to choose between compassion and truth. You don't have to choose between prayer and professional care. You don't have to choose between taking suffering seriously or holding on to hope. You can do both. And because sometimes faithfulness looks like praying, and sometimes it's just sitting quietly listening to someone who's hurting. Sometimes it looks like making the phone call to the counselor for yourself or someone else. Sometimes it looks like helping someone to get to an appointment or find that appropriate treatment or resource, or just refusing to let them walk through that dark season alone. And sometimes the most spiritual thing that we can say is, as we've all said in some way today, hey, I'm here. I see that you're hurting. You don't have to carry this by yourself. And the Christian response doesn't have to be fear or shame. It can be just presence and compassion and wisdom and community and professional care and prayer, and most of all, hope. Because hope doesn't require us to say, hey, those things that we struggle with aren't real. Hope means believing that darkness is not gonna get the final word. Hope. And, Christina, I'm so grateful for the way that you've helped us to have a more honest and compassionate, passionate conversation about these issues. And to parents and families listening, if someone you love or you're struggling. Don't underestimate the power of your presence. You can be there for somebody and you can seek help. The book is called Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A Biblical and Practical Guide for Christians Walking through the Darkness. I pray as you're walking through whatever you're walking through today, that the Lord will bless you and keep you, make his face to to shine upon you and give you peace. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
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Prescribing Hope For Healthy Families Exploring Mental Health Faith And The Messy Middle
Together we can save lives one heartbeat at a time. preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the
: Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there friends. Welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing hope for healthy families. And we have a great talk on hope today. We're talking about it through the lens of mental health. Now, mental health is actually kind of a contentious conversation these days. And I always see in everything there's always a pendulum swinging where, you know, we were, we went through the suck it up gener, like the you're fine, just, you know, put, put a band aid on it and go about your Business to the over medicalizing every emotion. But there is a healthy, balanced balance in the middle. It is one of the most discussed topics in our culture, but it is honestly one of the most misunderstood. We know that we are seeing anxiety and depression impact people. It also impacts marriages and families and children and teenagers and communities and even churches. And for Christians, there's another layer to the conversation makes mental health discussions so complex. Because sometimes the question isn't simply, what's happening to me, what am I experiencing? But it's what's wrong with my faith? If I really trusted God, would I feel this way? Shouldn't prayer be enough? Does my faith need to be stronger? Is seeking help or therapy? Does that mean that I don't trust God? These questions can leave people suffering not only from anxiety or depression, but also shame about having those experiences of anxiety or depression. Now, millions of Americans experience these conditions each year. The CDC data tells us that almost 20%, about 1 in 5, just a little less than 1 in 5 of U.S. adults, have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. And the same for a depressive disorder. And it is happening. And when we look at the world today, it's no wonder it's a tough place to be. It's a broken world. And there's wisdom in finding the middle ground between two extremes. A culture that sometimes medicalizes every difficult emotion or turns ordinary sadness or stress or grief or disappointment into a, diagnosis or a reason for therapy. There's that side of the equation and the Christian response on the other side that sometimes says, hey, therapy is inherently always harmful and faith should be the only answer always. And that is where we're going to talk about in the messy middle of that. And just as we use healthcare providers to care for our bodies, there are skilled mental health care professionals, especially those with a Christian worldview or those who respect that of yours. Under can help you understand patterns and develop healthy skills and process trauma and address genuine mental health conditions and recognize that normal range of human emotion, but also seeking appropriate care when we need to. And that's why I was so interested in this new book that is coming out tomorrow, I believe is the launch date. It's called Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A Biblical and Practical Guide for Christians Walking through the Darkness. And we have today, with us both authors, we have Hope Blanton, a licensed clinical social worker. She is a co founder of At His Feet Studies and Councils in Private practice in San Antonio, Texas. And Christine Gordon, a theologian, a Bible teacher, and the co founder of At His Feet Studies and she's an adjunct professor at Covenant Theological Seminary. So we're going to talk about this health and faith and this intersection. Hope and Christine, I'm delighted to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Christine Gordon: Oh, we're so glad to be here.
Christine Gordon: Yeah. What a great intro. Thank you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, this is a space where I am, you know, I mean really, you've got the social worker, you've got like the primary care provider, we've got the theologian in the room. Kind of sounds like it's the start of a joke, but mental is no joke for sure. I'm not going to tell any jokes about that because there is a really real tension there. So let's just hear a little bit of each one of your personal stories and Hope, I'm going to pick you first just because your name is Hope. So let's start there with some M. Hope, tell us your story and your calling and then Christine will hear from you.
Christine Gordon: Yeah, so,
My journey with mental health started in my early 20s
my journey with mental health started, you know, really in my early 20s and I just kind of didn't know what was happening. And as a Christian, I'd become a believer a couple years before that. And so I really spent a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on with me. And then I had a lot of great believers around me, a Christian psychologist that walked me through it and so many people that poured into me and helped me take my faith in this struggle and make sense of it. and that laid a foundation for years and years and years of up and down struggle and all of that. And so it would, you know, and then now obviously as a therapist, I walk a lot of Christians through this. so that's really been the journey. And Krish and I, you know, we always joke. I'm the anxiety part of the book, she's the depression part of the book. So we really understand the whole spectrum. personally and also then as Christians, me as a clinician and her as a theologian.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, thanks for sharing so transparently. Christine, what, what has your story been of the, of the sadness part of this duo here?
Christine Gordon: that's right. I'm like the little blue ball that you've all seen. So, so a little bit similar in that I didn't have words, I didn't know how to articulate what was happening when I was young and in adolescence. And then when I got through college and to seminary, actually I had some people who really helped me, great Christian counselor, shout out to her, who gave me some language and helped me understand what was happening. And what was so helpful for me is I had lots of people around me who gave me a framework to start to understand, and it gave me a good biblical theology of anxiety and depression. Like, how did we get here in the first place? And therefore, what can we do to push back against the effects of the fall? All that was very, very helpful. And, you know, I never necessarily thought we would be talking or writing about anxiety and oppression. I just love to teach the Bible. But Hope and I have been friends for a really long time. This has always been part of our conversation and part of our friendship. And so this book sort of just evolved over time out of our personal lives and our friendship together. And we, like she said, we've both been given so much encouragement, so much help from clinicians, theologians, pastors, friends, and we. We want to give that help to other people and that Hope, you know, Christine, it's so.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It's so strange to me because if someone gets strep throat and they say, oh, I have strep throat. I can't, you know, come to church today. People don't automatically say, oh, you have strep throat. Like, aren't you gonna pray that away? Like, what's wrong with your face? How did you. How did you get that? Because obviously something's wrong with your faith, but yet we do that with anxiety or depression. And I find in my clinical practice, people get excited when they get strep throat because it's a definitive diagnosis. It turns, you know, that little strip positive. You get the pink stuff and you're feeling better by tomor.
But anxiety and depression are so much more in the messy middle
But anxiety and depression is so much more in the messy middle. And I think, especially for parents, if you're going to. If I. If I start to approach that space and say, you know, I can see some signs of anxiety or depression. It's like we take it on immediate, like, well, I'm not being a good parent, or I'm not being a good Christian. Like, I don't have a good faith. Why do you think, Christine, that we jump to that so fast?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, I think there are a couple reasons, and that's for a long time why I. I was really hesitant to take medication for a really long time or to do any kind of treatment for depression myself. I think it's several things. One of them is there's still a stigma and has been for a really long time, but still stigma, around anything that has to do with mental health in the church. I think another is because of exactly what you said. Anxiety doesn't grow in a petri dish. And there's not one specific antibiotic that you can give it to kill it. And so it. I think those two things kind of come together, and they make us, they make us nervous. They make it kind of this mysterious part of life. It has to do with the mind and the heart, which we always put in the faith category, which we should. They are. But because of that, we're scared to walk into places that don't feel like they originated in the church. And I think one of the most helpful things to think about is just like you would give a patient that, antibiotic. That antibiotic is a gift from God, just like you would talk about blood pressure medication or any other kind of treatment. And if we can start thinking about tools in the mental health world like we do tools in the medical world, then we get a whole new kind of freedom, and we unleash them from this mysterious, scary. They're going to pull us away from God, make us weak Christians. And then they start being in the category which they should be, which is these are tools from a good God who can comfort us through lots of means.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's really well said. And Hope. You're the clinician, part of this duo, and I'm sure that you see new patients who walk in, and it feels like just that barrier of just going the first time. Like, once you go, then people can figure out sometimes it's not a good fit, and you really have to work to find that good fitness fit for you. But that first barrier of even just saying, like, okay, I'm gonna go for professional counseling, that feels like it's a, about a wall that's like 12ft tall. What do you want people to know to lower the barrier to that, to make it more accessible and easy to reach out and say, okay, maybe I'll. I'll give this a try and see if I need to get some help.
Hope Blanton: Well, I think for Christians in particular, where I see the resistance is usually because they feel like they're going to dishonor God somehow, that they're either dishonoring him, that they're struggling with depression or anxiety in the first place, because they feel like, isn't that a heart issue? Or is my thoughts not right? That's. That's my own problem. Right? Because we see that so much of the scripture, the scripture encouraging us to submit those things to Christ. And so I think sometimes they feel like going to a therapist feels like they're. They're dishonoring the Lord. Somehow, or they're jumping into some area that's. That's not under his umbrella, as opposed to seeing that God uses all these things in order to bring redemption and push against things that are broken in us. Just like he uses you, you know, in your practice. and in that moment with the, with the patient who has strep, you know, they were so thankful for those antibiotics. God is doing the same work when he equips, you know, Clint. Clinicians, mental health professionals with skills and tools and understanding the human heart and mind and how to help it in this particular area of suffering. So helping them to see that, oh, this isn't some weird, you know, thing that's, like, not okay or unsanctioned. It's like, it's just God blesses it and uses it just as much as he uses that dentist that cleans your teeth or, you know, that doctor who helped identify your heart issue. and then I think it kind of takes away, like, Krish is saying, some of that, that weird miss, you know, mystery part of it, but kind of lowering that barrier and helping believers see that this is a tool that the Lord is giving because he loves you and he wants to help you in your suffering and seeing it as that, as opposed to it's a way to dishonor him while you're suffering.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Hope.
What are some ways that you would advise families to seek counseling?
Dr. Jessica Peck: What are some ways that you would advise families to seek counseling? Because there's so many different places that they can go. I mean, you're a licensed clinical social worker, and I think there's still a lot of. Who don't realize that, you know, licensed clinical social workers are very engaged in the counseling space. But there are counselors, there's psychologists, there's psychiatrists, there's primary care physicians, there's, primary care other clinicians, there's nurse practitioners in mental health. I mean, there's all kinds of. Of, you know, help. I personally recommend people start with their primary care provider because hopefully that's somebody they can trust and know what they recommend. But there's a lot of parents especially, who are really afraid. Like, I'm going to encounter some crazy person who's going to tell my kids something, you know, that's really terrible. Yes, yes. So how do you. How do you help them to take some practical steps to vet that source of help and to, you know, put some of that fear, down a little bit.
Christine Gordon: That makes sense. And first of all, the fear makes sense. And it's okay that we have that fear, but we need to push past it. Two things I Recommend is for people, yes, to ask their doctors if they trust their doctors. I also usually really, suggest that they ask people in their church community, ask their pastors, ask their small group leaders, do they know of any, therapists or counselors that people have trusted that have gone to and have felt like they've given good counsel. and I usually try to have them work in those networks if they can. And also the second thing I would say is most therapist. And yes, you're right, there's a lot of different words and a lot of different names and usually that means just different types of training. Some people like myself who have a license, I've done 3,000 hours of supervision before I was allowed to have my license versus maybe someone who had didn't have to do any supervision. There's just all those little things that can get confusing, which we do talk about in the book. But the second thing I suggest is most people will do a 10 to 15 minute free phone call with you to before you even step into their office. And sometimes I will get people on the phone who will say to me, listen, I'm a believer, I'm a Christian. Like, I'm a real, like for real. Like it's really important to me.
Christine Gordon: I love it.
Christine Gordon: Is it important to you in that way? You know, and I always say them, yes, Jesus is the most important person to me. But you know, I think that's fair. You know, they get to ask whatever they want to ask in that phone call and then they can see, okay, let me see if I. And then they go in for that one session and then they can see how that feels and go from there. But I think that like asking your network, your faith network, your doctor, if you trust them, but you know, hey, has anybody gone to anybody here? Did they trust them? Do they like them? How did they deal with their faith in the intersection with mental health? And the second thing is make a phone call first and then even say something like, hey, I'm gonna send my 13 year old and I'm a little concerned about.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm gonna hold you right there, Hope because. Because I'm gonna hold you right there because we're already at our first break. But that is exactly the kind of question that we, they are asking. We'll be right back with more from Hope Blanton and Christine Gordon. Hope for the anxious and depressed. See you right after this break. Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. Ah. Did you know that this content is listener supported
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Oh But God by Davy Flowers : I needed oh, but God resurrected my heart from the ruins and my rescue came through like some morning and now this is my sure testimony Over God over God Mention my mercy how you love me too much to let me stay long.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is oh, but God by Davy Flowers. But God are, my two favorite words together ever. And the history of the English language. Oh, but for God. But for the grace of God. We live in a world that is messy and broken and where we are sick and our spirits can be broken, our minds can be broken, our bodies can be broken. But here's the good news. Experiencing emotional or mental health struggles is not automatically evidence of spiritual failure. And really, one of the most compassionate things the church can do is create an environment where people don't have to hide their pain or their struggle. Because when shame enters that conversation, people may become less willing to tell someone they're struggling. And that can keep them from getting the support they need. And that can lead to all kinds of things that are just a road of heartache. And we're talking today. I'm talking to Hope Blanton and Christine Gordon. I said the book launches tomorrow, but good news, it went out into the world yesterday, so you can get a copy of it today. It is Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A, biblical and practical guide for Christians walking through the darkness. And I really appreciate this because I think there are a lot of secular resources out there, but
There's not a lot of Christian resources that integrate mental health and faith
there's not a lot of Christian resources that integrate mental health and faith. And so, Hope, I'm going to go back to you because you were right in the middle of saying something about, you know, parent being worried about their 13 year old and walking in and, and saying it's okay to ask, like, what is your worldview? I need to know if we're aligned before we engage on this, adventure together. I'm gonna let you finish your thought exactly.
Hope Blanton: So if you, let's say you make a phone call about your 13 year old, you can say on that 10 to 15 phone call the therapist, hey, this area is really, faith is really important to me particularly I want to know your framework for what do you do if the kid says this or what are you going to do if they bring up this? Like, tell me a little bit about how you handle that, you know, whatever area that is hot button. Pick a hot button topic. and that's a fair question to ask. And then you as a parent can weigh what that means for you, what it means for your kid, and whether that's the right fit.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Christine, let's go back to you and talk about kind of the holistic matter of it. Because we do often compartmentalize ourselves. Like we. We treat the body with this person, we treat our spiritual life. We're gonna talk about that at church. We address emotions, maybe, you know, with a counselor, maybe at home with somebody we care about. But human beings, God made body, mind, and spirit. And I tell you, it'll be very easy for me to nerd out on brain science, because I feel like I can't even learn. I can't learn enough. The more that I learn, I'm like, wow, God is amazing. The way that he created our brains for survival, for coping, for repair, the way that he protects us. But that all goes together. I would love for you to give us a theologian's perspective on, not compartmentalizing that, on treating it. It's. It's faith and, and emotions and physical health and psychological health. You can't separate those out one from the other.
Christine Gordon: That's right.
Christine Gordon: Yeah.
Christine Gordon: I. The first time talk about nerding out, the first time I learned about neuroplasticity and the fact that our brains can change, I just was like, I mean, I just thought, what is happening right now? How do we not know about this? It is amazing. Our brains are amazing. And I think in order to truly understand, before we get all the way to treatment or even in naming things and diagnosis, we got to go all the way back to creation and think about the fact that God did create us as. As embodied humans, and he doesn't separate these things in creation. He doesn't talk about, now I'm going to create the spiritual part of you. Now I'm going to create the physical part of you. Now I'm going to work on your neurotransmitters. Right.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's kind of funny.
Christine Gordon: Stage by stage. Right, Right. He creates Adam from the dust and then Eve, and we are whole creatures just like that. We come in all of our nuance and complexity. And so if that is true, and if his jurisdiction and his power is as wide as creation, then that means next that the consequences of the fall are also as wide as creation.
So it wasn't just our hearts that fell: it was our neurotransmitters...
So it wasn't just our hearts that fell. It was our neurotransmitters. It was Our hormonal systems, it was our autonomic nervous systems. It was every part of that creation that you put on that flannel graph on Sunday morning. All of it fell to the atomic level. And we have to think about the wide stretch of the fall in order to really understand and have, have a biblical view of mental illness and what happened. Especially when we talk about anxiety and depression because, we think about them just as a heart falling. And it's much broader than that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It is much broader than that. It does involve our brains. And sometimes we need those clinical practices, like what HOPE provides. And there's certain therapies that are shown to be really effective. Like, for example, for children. The, the first line therapy for anxiety and depression is something called cognitive behavioral therapy. Now, that's not an explicitly Christian practice, but when I look at it, I think this is a biblical worldview. It's talking about taking every thought captive and it's talking about renewing your mind, and that's really where it's going. So sometimes you need some of those skills, but you also do need the spiritual healing. You do need the faith part of it. Having a mental health struggle can really shake your faith. And sometimes, you know, I talked with, with Hope about the barriers being high to accessing mental health care, but sometimes you feel like, okay, well, that's just something separate that I'm doing. But I can't talk about this at church. I don't want people to know I'm in therapy. I don't want them to judge me. And so I just kind of am, I'll work on that on my own, but I don't talk about it.
The Church's Role In Supporting Mental Health Care And Vetting Professional Help
And that's a disservice to what can the church do better to help support people who do need some level of professional therapy and still feed them spiritually?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the, one of the biggest things the big C church can do is first to have this conversation. What you're doing right now is to name it for what it is and, and to acknowledge that it's not a lack of faith. When you come to your pastor or your Bible study leader or your whoever in your church and say, hey, I'm really struggling with anxiety. That is actually a step of faith. Because what you're doing is saying to this person, I want to, I want help from the Lord in this place, in whatever form he wants to give it to me. And I know that I am an embodied human. And so part of that help is going to come as spiritual help. Some of it might come as physical help, some of it might come in another way. Some of them might come in Hope's office. And I think one of the best pieces of news we have as the church for the world wide world is that we don't have to separate those things. We don't have to choose one or the other or say, you know, you can get physical help, but you're not really allowed to talk about this in church because redemption and Jesus's work of healing, pushing back the effects of the fall, which includes so much suffering in every way. His help is as wide as the world, which means we can accept every, we can use so many different tools. And we don't have to hide because like you said at the beginning of the show, I would never hide or be embarrassed about the fact that I have. I am on an antibiotic, whatever it is. My husband had a heart attack at 43. He takes 13 pills a day. He doesn't have to hide that at church. It's, it's a sign of weakness. Yes, because he's a weak, fragile human living in a body that's broken by the fall. And I think part of the good news of the gospel is that the, the church is for broken people and we forget that.
Christine Gordon: Right.
And the church is for all kinds of brokenness...including spiritual, physical, all the things
Christine Gordon: And the church is for all kinds of brokenness, including spiritual, physical, all the things. So we have the best news ever because we actually have an explanation for what has gone wrong with these magnificent bodies that Jesus put together. And we have compassion to give to people who are hurting in this particular kind of suffering, which. It is a particular kind of suffering. So I think, how can the church help? They can name this as suffering because it is. And they can say, I'm so glad you're here and there's help for you. I think it's one of the, one of the best things that I ever heard is when someone told me, Jesus is not ashamed of you in your suffering because we experience so much shame already. And to know that the great physician not only has compassion on you, but has, you know, in his hand ten different ways at any moment that he can offer comfort to you is just really good news for a lot of people who are hurting.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That, that's really encouraging hope. Let's swing it back to the clinical way because, you know, we talked about the spiritual side of it, but let's talk about what happens when you know, you need help but you wait and you don't get help early. And I know you see people like this all the Time. One of the things I love about being a nurse practitioner is, is looking at holistic health. So when, you know, even when my kids come to me and they say, like, oh, I'm feeling anxious, you know, I had had four teenagers at once, so that happened a lot. And I start saying, okay, are you, are you well hydrated? Are you drinking enough water? No, they're drinking caffeine. Are you sleeping well? No, I'm not sleeping enough at night. I'm like, are you practicing sleep hygiene? Are you, you know, looking at your screen before you go to sleep? Yes, I'm doing that. Well, what are you eating? Are you eating nutritious foods? Are you moving your body? Are you talking to people? Are you going outside and touching grass in the morning? And they're saying, no, no, no. And I'm like, well, that makes sense that you would feel that way. But once you move past those, you do a holistic health assessment and you've tried, maybe you've tried some faith things, thinking, okay, I need to give this to the Lord, I need to pray about this. Like, I need to, you know, be more serious about my health. And yet these symptoms persist. And you, what you're seeing is the emergence of really a clinical diagnosis. It's disrupting your everyday life. But you don't go to get help. What are the consequences of waiting and what are the advantages of just going earlier?
Hope Blanton: Yeah. I mean, you've made a great point, by the way. All of those rhythms you mentioned do help with anxiety and depression, whether you have a diagnosable anxiety or depression disorder or whether you just are struggling as a human. But the consequences of waiting is just like it is waiting, you know, to go get that tooth checked out in your mouth. By the time you get there, you might need a root canal. Right? We just, we've exacerbated and expanded. I know we've expanded the problem sometimes and, but not even that. It also, it's just, it is, it is burdening you in a way that the Lord doesn't want. Like, it is, it is pressing on you in a way that he wants to alleviate. So in some ways it's like some of the biggest consequences that you're missing out on. Some of that comfort from the Lord that He gives through counseling or intervention with a doctor, all those things, but it absolutely can exacerbate it. But if you go and you take that, that brave step of meeting with someone or all those different things, then you find relief and joy and refreshment. Not immediately, but Just comfort. I mean, I can't tell you how helpful it is or how for myself, but even with my clients, when I'm like, hey, this is what's going on. Here's, here's it. And God's here with us and he's going to help you. I mean, they're just like, like, that's hope, right? They just feel a sense of hope and comfort. And so it's just like a relief in the midst of. So instead of just feeling lost in your own mind and so sad or so heavy or so anxious and on edge, it takes that down and it calms it down a little bit. Not all the way, but it calms it down. And so that's the beauty of getting that help is that it, it makes a difference. And then not getting it just makes, exacerbates it and also just prolongs suffering that you don't have to prolong.
Dr. Jessica Peck: The other thing that I see hope is that when people are suffering, they will try to cope, they will try to self medicate. Now sometimes that's, you know, just numbing out. Like sometimes it's an addiction, sometimes it's alcohol, sometimes it's, you know, prescription medications, sometimes it's risk taking behaviors. You know,
There are all kinds of ways that we can cope in an unhealthy way
there are all kinds of ways that we can cope in an unhealthy way. And the longer that you do that, the more your brain is going to be wired to say like, okay, well this is what we do when we feel anxious and that unhealthy pattern become entrenched and it impacts your relationships with your family. That's the other thing from a science perspective, right, about why it's good to go early, even if it's just for a season, just for a little tune up. Maybe you just need a few sessions just to get realigned. You can do that, right?
Hope Blanton: Yeah, yeah. I've been, I've been amazed when I get certain, men in my office who are struggling with some addiction issues, how much it's rooted in anxiety. You know, they thought it was rooted in this and they're like, oh, I didn't even know there was such a thing as anxiety, let alone that. Like, that's what was driving me to this. Oh my goodness. So then when we start treating the anxiety, this issue, it changes. And so absolutely, people will do something to manage. Right?
Understanding Mental Health From A Clinical And Spiritual Perspective God's Plan For Healing
That's what humans do. We're very creative. But a lot of times the management is not good. it's kind of whatever we can get our hands on. And right now we know it's our phones for sure. So absolutely. It's just, it's like you have this problem. You can manage it this way or this way. Let's get over here. So this doesn't turn into a secondary problem that's causing all kinds of havoc in your life because your, your primary problem was just that you were anxious.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, really hearing you speak about that like a clinician, hope is really, is really helpful because sometimes when we're just in our own situation, your, your vision is really clouded, you can't see yourself very well. And to have somebody objective, you know, really walking through some of those things and be able to uncover some root causes. The other thing that I see a lot, hope, and I'm sure you see this too, is that sometimes it uncovers like family trauma, generational trauma that's happened, and you cope like your dad coped or you cope like your mom coped, and you don't even realize that it's dysfunctional because that's just what we do. And we see these kinds of generational playbook lines, you know, passed down from parent to parent. Like we all intuitively know that asking a kid, screaming in their face, what were you thinking? Is not really helpful. And yet we all do it. So having, you know, some intentional therapy, I think is really important. Well, listen, we're already coming up on our second break, but when we come back, Christine, I want to dive in and talk more about the spiritual practices that are science based, that are evidence based, they're science supported to really be able to help with mental health struggles. And that is something that's discussed even in secular literature. You can say that those faith practices, generally speaking, really do make a difference. And so we can pray and we can see a therapist, we can open scripture and we can talk with a counselor. We can trust God and also trust that he has put people on this earth to help us in our point of need. And we can recognize that asking for help doesn't mean that we've lost our faith or that we've stopped trusting God. The goal isn't to create this competition or separation between faith and clinical care. It's just to see us as God made us, body, mind and spirit. So when we come back, we'll talk more about spiritual practices and how families can really show up well for someone who is struggling.
We'll be right back with hope for the anxious and depressed
We'll be right back with hope for the anxious and depressed. See you on the other side of this break.
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Speak Life by TobyMac: Some days life feels perfect. Other days it just ain't working. The good, the bad, the right, the wrong and everything in between. Yo, it's crazy, amazing, amazing. We can turn our heart through the words we say Mountains crumble with every syllable broken Live or die so speak life, speak life to the dead and darkest night Speak life, speak light when the sun will shine and you don't know why look into the eyes of the brokenhearted Watch them come alive as soon as you speak Hope you speak Speak love you speak you speak. M.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Speak Life by TobyMac and that's what we're talking about today. How do we speak life? How do we speak life to someone who feels like maybe the life is just draining out of them? Someone who's struggling with mental health, health conditions? I'm talking today to Hope Blanton and Christine Gordon, the co authors of a new book that just came out yesterday called Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A Biblical and Practical Guide for Christians Walking through the Darkness. And I love this collaborative approach. I love the spiritual health of it and also the mental health and sometimes hope and Christine, you know, we're not walking through our own anxiety or depression journey. And you know, I've never experienced anxiety personally and in this kind of way. And sometimes it can be really hard. Like, I know I can see what it looks like, but I haven't walked in those shoes. But maybe I'm watching it happening and maybe you're watching it happen to your spouse or your friend or your parent or your child or someone who's sitting beside you in church and you're asking like, what do I say? Because you don't want to minimize their pain, but you don't want to make everything about fixing them and what I see a lot of times is that when we, somebody discloses a health, a mental health struggle to us, they say, yeah, I, I'm, under treatment for anxiety or depression or whatever else it might be, whatever numerous kinds of mental health conditions. I find that all of a sudden we just are, we become toddlers and the whole world is about us. And we're like, oh, this is the pop quiz moment. I'm supposed to say something super spiritual right here. I'm supposed to have the right verse and say something really wise and really sage and not anything that's going to make them feel bad or feel worse. And, and so then we just give the best that we have, but it's often not very good. It's well intentioned, but that just is a tough position for people to be in. Christine, let's start with you from a spiritual perspective. Let's say somebody, you know, discloses to, to us in the context of a, A, close relationship, a friendship, a family relationship, that you have a mental health struggle. What is a good response in that moment?
Christine Gordon: I think first maybe to just treat them like a human and say, wow, thanks for telling me. I probably took some courage. And then just be quiet. You know, I think it's. They don't, they're not asking you to be their therapist. They just are trusting you to hold something about them. And so I think it's dignifying to just say, hey, thanks for telling me. or you can just say, I'm sorry it's been a struggle, you know, and I don't know that you have to say a whole lot more than that. Part of what they will know is how they're accepted by your actions. Beyond that, you know, and that you don't signal them out, you single them out, you don't avoid them, you don't get real awkward every time you see them after that, but that you just treat them like a human who's living with a certain kind of struggle. Like all their other struggles. I think that's one of the best responses.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It really is. And if anything else, if you ask them any questions,
The question that I recommend is how can I pray for you?
the question that I recommend is just how can I pray for you? I, haven't walked through that. I, I bet it looks like it's really hard. How can I pray for you? How can I support you and just ask and just listen. Because you said something really important just now, Christine, because sometimes we do, we feel like, oh, gosh, we have to be a therapist in this moment, but we don't. You have to Remember, like, they're reaching out to me as their friend, as their spouse, as their parent, and they need to know, like, yeah, I see this struggle in you, and God is still good and you are still worthy of love, and I am not going to leave you. That's really what they're looking for.
Christine Gordon: Hope.
Dr. Jessica Peck: what would you add to that? What do you think? What are practical ways that someone can support someone who's maybe even seeking a therapy journey? What is. What are ways that we can provide support for that?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, just kind of extensions of what you guys said, which is basically saying, what. What's helpful for me to do for you right now? How can I help you? Do you. Or what's not helpful? Is it unhelpful if I ask you every day if you're feeling depressed still? What do you need from me? What do you not need from me? And they may not know, so then you can give them some options. Would it be helpful for you if I asked our pastor or small group leader, whoever, about a recommendation for a therapist? Or what if we go see if it's, you know, let's go see your pediatrician, or maybe we, you know, that if it's a kid living in your household, or even if it's an adult child or even your spouse, would it be helpful for you if I went with you to the doctor or I went with you to, you know, drove with you in the car to counseling, or do you need me to cook you a meal, do laundry for you, or, you know, mow your lawn, depending if it's a friend. I mean, there's all these ways, you know, that we can come in in these practical ways. So it might be like, I can't be your counselor, but I can take your kids for a couple hours if you need a break because you're so anxious, or I can make you a meal. and just those are practical ways where we can enter in. And sometimes I think people think, oh, it's mental health. So I can't really enter in, in helpful ways. And that's not true. Just your presence. Just your presence. For someone who's struggling in this inside their head feels grounding to people and good and comforting. Yeah.
Christine Gordon: Because part of what they're asking is, will you still be with me if this is what's going on? And, and part of what you need them to know is, I'm not going anywhere. I'm right here with you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. I think that is a really important piece of it because there is so much shame that is associated with it and hope. Let's take it to another level. Let's. So let's say that when somebody is disclosing something to you, they're disclosing something to you that's really frightening. There may be disclosing thoughts of self harm. They are, you know, really, you can see that they're very distressed and maybe they'll even say they don't want help at what point? What, what does it look like to say, okay, this is the kind, loving, responsible thing to do. I'm going to connect you to help maybe even if you, you don't want it?
Christine Gordon: Yeah.
Hope Blanton: I think you make a great point. Anytime anyone's talking about harming themselves, whether they're saying that they feel suicidal or they've had thoughts of it or plans of it, what if they, if they even hint to any of that, you need to ask some questions and then just know that there's some immediate resources at your fingertips. There is a suicide hotline that you can Google quickly. I think they've recently changed the number. Someone's gonna pick up. 988. Thank you. Gonna pick up no matter what, any time of day. And so always make sure that you know. So if you're sitting there with your loved one or their friend, hey, let's call right now. Or also you can always take into a local er, any ER and say that we're here because of a mental health situation, this person is having some suicidal thoughts or you know, or is thinking about that behavior. But if you're not trained in that, just go to the people that are. That's why I recommended that the suicide hotline or the er, if you feel like they're immediate danger and if you' I don't know if they're immediate danger, then, then call and find people that can help you with that information. Whether it's a, like a doctor or someone you know that's trained that they know or anything like that to help you get that answer. But if you know, if you don't know, when in doubt, take them to, to a place that does know, like a local ER or phone number, you know, like calling the, the, the suicide hotline. But it's just one of those things that it's like people like, well, I tried to assess or I couldn't really tell or I didn't know what to ask them. Great, then get to them to someone who can. So that way you can keep them safe. and don't leave them alone until you have that conversation and, you know, make sure that they're in an environment where they can be kept safe until you figure out what the next steps are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes, I'm really glad that you said that, Hope, because I do know that sometimes people find themselves like that in a church situation. Whether it's maybe you're facilitating a youth group, you know, a life group or a women's, Bible study, and somebody's going to approach you. I just really want to say that it is okay if you're really concerned to. You need to access some form of help, whether that's going to your church leadership and saying, what is our policy here? What do we do? Or reaching out to a family member. And I'm always really honest with that person about it. And I say, you know, I really care about you, and what you shared with me is. Is really concerning, and I just will not rest until I make sure that you have access to some help and resources. So don't ever feel about doing that and making sure that people are safe. And especially if they mention, you know, if they mention having any suicidal thoughts, that that is always something that is urgent or even emergent, that you need to make sure that you don't leave them alone and you connect them to help. And if that's through the local emergency room, then that's where that is.
The Church's Role In Mental Health Care Embracing Lament And Holistic Healing
Christine, going back to the spiritual side of it, there is a real help, I think, when. When people disclose or that they're having a mental health struggle and a church environment in a church setting, and the church provides spiritual support, and they say, hey, yeah, we'll pray for you. Yeah, we will, you know, minister to your family, we will help you in some tangible ways. But when the church gives the, immediate connection to counseling services, whether that's a list of counselors, a personal recommendation, a celebrate recovery program that they run out of the church, a it when that. That. That connection is there, I find that people are much more likely to take that step and go because it has that. That blessing, so to speak, from the church.
Christine Gordon: What do you.
Dr. Jessica Peck: What do you think about that?
Christine Gordon: Yeah, I. I actually was an intake coordinator for a large counseling practice here in St. Louis for three years. And so I was the person who, when you called the number that your pastor gave you, I was the one who would answer and try to connect you with somebody. And so part of what I heard a lot of times was my pastor gave me this number, my ministry leadership gave me this number, my women's coordinator gave me this number. And so you have all these questions about, like we talked about earlier, is this going to be okay for my 13 year old daughter? And what you're asking is, have you vetted this person, are they safe? And when you're in a crisis and you don't know what is going to happen in the next 24 hours with your kid, what you want to know is this is a safe person, you can call them. Which is why if there are pastors listening, you know, you need to have all that network established before the crisis comes so that you have the number to give. And I think it's, it's such a comfort because then part of what the church is free to do, once they have said, hey, we're not, we're not licensed counselors, we're not the one who can prescribe you medicine, then they're free to do what the church is good at, which is offer lots of comfort and a bunch of other things that we don't necessarily think of as helpful when it comes to anxiety and depression. one of my favorite things to talk about is lament, which we don't always think of as a helpful practice. Yeah, but if you think about someone has gone, we talked a little bit about trauma before, someone who's gone through a traumatic event. Part of I think what the message we sometimes get in our churches is, well, you better be quiet about that. Because Christians are called to be full of joy and full of hope and to live by faith. All that is true. But also the Bible gives us, in the book of the Psalms, a third of the Psalms are lament psalms because God knows we're living in a world that is broken. And we're going to need templates of prayers and songs for when terrible things happen that we have words to say to him about all the carnage and the disappointment and the pain. And that's what those lament psalms are. So I think, you know, hope has used lament in her clinical practice sometimes. We've done retreats where we teach people to write their own laments. We, we did a Bible study on the book of Lamentations where they, we walk them through. Writing your own lament to God because is part of what that is, is being honest with your God who can handle your pain, who's not afraid to hear what's happened and all the anger behind it. And that is a spiritual practice that I don't think we have. We get permission to do enough in the church to take our pain somewhere so good.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, Christine, what I see sometimes is Especially Christians who have gone through something traumatic and God really meets them where they are, and they see this as, this is my story, this is my testimony. You know, I went through this. Oh, but God, you know, like, we would listen to the song earlier by Davy Flowers, but I think it's okay to recognize that, hey, yeah, you can say, God is there with me. God saved me. But the way that our brains work, sometimes when we go through trauma, you can have a setback. You can grieve about that. You know,
I think about the story of Joseph in the Bible who endured much trauma, right?
I think about the story of Joseph in the Bible who endured much trauma, right? He was. Was sold as a slave by his brothers and then put in prison. And, you know, just all of this deception, animosity. And then when he sees his brothers, it's not like a made for TV moment. It says he withdrew to his rooms because he was overcome with emotion. He was sobbing. he was so upset. So he can see God at work, and yet he can also have a little emotional breakdown about it and cry about it and then come back and say, you know what. What you intended for evil, God intended for good, for the saving of many lives. So we'll hope. And, Christine, I think one of the most important messages that you have given families today is that we don't have to choose between compassion and truth. You don't have to choose between prayer and professional care. You don't have to choose between taking suffering seriously or holding on to hope. You can do both. And because sometimes faithfulness looks like praying, and sometimes it's just sitting quietly listening to someone who's hurting. Sometimes it looks like making the phone call to the counselor for yourself or someone else. Sometimes it looks like helping someone to get to an appointment or find that appropriate treatment or resource, or just refusing to let them walk through that dark season alone. And sometimes the most spiritual thing that we can say is, as we've all said in some way today, hey, I'm here. I see that you're hurting. You don't have to carry this by yourself. And the Christian response doesn't have to be fear or shame. It can be just presence and compassion and wisdom and community and professional care and prayer, and most of all, hope. Because hope doesn't require us to say, hey, those things that we struggle with aren't real. Hope means believing that darkness is not gonna get the final word. Hope. And, Christina, I'm so grateful for the way that you've helped us to have a more honest and compassionate, passionate conversation about these issues. And to parents and families listening, if someone you love or you're struggling. Don't underestimate the power of your presence. You can be there for somebody and you can seek help. The book is called Hope for the Anxious and Depressed, A Biblical and Practical Guide for Christians Walking through the Darkness. I pray as you're walking through whatever you're walking through today, that the Lord will bless you and keep you, make his face to to shine upon you and give you peace. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
In this episode, Jessica engages in a profound discussion about mental health and faith with authors Hope Blanton and Chris Gordon. Together, they explore the complexities of anxiety and depression, particularly within the Christian community. They unpack the stigma surrounding mental health, and how seeking help can coexist with faith. With insights from their new book, "Hope for the Anxious and Depressed," they provide listeners with practical advice on navigating these challenging topics while fostering hope and compassion.
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