Hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Here on American Family Radio.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck. Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. I'm just realizing I'm blind here. I can't see. I need to put on my glasses if you're watching here. I, I don't know. Is there anybody else out there who can relate to this? It's like you have a certain birthday and the day before your birthday, you can see just fine. And then all of a sudden you wake up on this birthday and you're blind. That's what I feel like has happened to me. I'm in that life stage. If you're there with me, I appreciate you so much. But wherever you are in your life stage, I hope that you will consider joining the AFA Activate Summit. This is put on by the American Family association as we're starting to look towards summer plans. I know that spring break is in the rearview mirror for a lot of us, but start thinking about your summer. This will be June 12th to 14th at the Cadence Bank Conference center in Tupelo, Mississippi. And the special pricing ends on Friday, April 18th. You can learn all about this at afa.net/summit that is an updated link. So go to afa.net/summit and you can look at the summit for adults. And there's a summit for kids age 6 to 12. It's free for kids five and under. And really learn about why you can trust the Bible and get a renewed desire and love for God's word as you look at a biblical worldview.

We are talking about broken family relationships. And this is on everyone's heart

And we are talking about a biblical worldview today with our guest, but we're talking specifically about an issue that is very near and dear to my heart. And I know that is very near and dear to so many. We are talking about broken family relationships. Now, when I meet people who have experienced that, there is a common understanding of that kind of pain. It is really hard to carry. It is really heavy. And we are talking about a book called Healing Family Relationships, A Guide to Peace and Reconciliation. And this is on everyone's heart. That is the common thread that runs through these conversations that I have. People long for reconciliation but may just feel pessimistic about it and think there's no way that's going to happen. But you know what? In reading this book and preparing to talk with you today and bring this Message to you today. I want to help you reframe your view of reconciliation. That may not be reconciliation in the relationship, but it could be reconciliation with God. It could be reconciliation with yourself and finding peace in the lack of. Of clarity, in that situation and the lack of resolution in that situation. And I have definitely walked that. We have a special treat for you today because the author of this book is Rob Rienow, but we're going to be talking to his wife today, Amy Rienow, and she has been on the show before. We've talked about her ministry for mothers and had such an encouraging conversation. Her first ministry, though, she says, is loving her husband and nurturing faith in their seven children. This automatically makes her an expert, for sure. She and Rob founded and lead Visionary Family Ministries. This is a ministry that's created to equip parents, encourage couples, help families, live for Christ. And she attended the University of Illinois, Wheaton College graduate School. She has a master's in clinical psychology, and she's a licensed clinical professional counselor. Amy, thank you so much for joining us again on the show. We're so glad to have you.

>> Amy Rienow: Thank you, Jessica, for having me. It is always a delight to have a conversation with you.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: It really is. We just share that mom heartbeat, and today we're going to talk about that wife heartbeat and how that looks when we're walking through conflict with extended family. And I so appreciated our conversation and just sharing our struggles as moms. And really, this story, this book is Rob's story, and he shares a very personal story of extended family conflict that he had. And so can you just tell us a little bit about Rob's story and then we'll talk about your role in all of that?

>> Amy Rienow: Well, Rob grew up in, what would be called a broken home by, I think, any day's standards. But his mom, was her. His dad's, I'm going to say this correctly. His dad was his mom's third wife. I'm still getting this wrong. And so basically, his mom was his dad's fourth wife and second husband for her. So that's the home he was born into. A lot of brokenness and dysfunctional relationships. He came into that home, and his mom, then became a Christian when Rob was just a baby, which then set his family, at least part of his family, on a different track. But his father continued to really reject God, which eventually led to the divorce in his home. And that caused a lot of brokenness for Rob in his life, reconciling with his dad, and in some ways drove him into the ministry that he's in because he really firsthand experienced that, brokenness of a broken home and a broken relationship with his father that was really painful. And it's really a beautiful story. you know, he learned a lot about walking forgiveness as a young man through his youth pastor and how to forgive his dad and how to prepare his heart for when his dad wanted to have a relationship, a closer relationship with him, which eventually. This is. I'm, really shortening the story, but eventually led to his dad's salvation when he was in his 90s, right before he passed away.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I just. You're right. That is a short version of the story, Amy. And I just got goosebumps. And if you want to read the whole story, you can read it in the book. Healing Family Relationships. And. And there were so many things that I think that our listeners need to hear, Amy. The first thing is that, you know, for. For Rob, looking at growing up, you're right, you described. He came into a lot of brokenness. A lot of brokenness had already happened even before he was born. And then when he was born, his parents struggled for 15 years. I think that he shared that they divorced when he was 15. And then going forward with all of that. But, you know, to see Rob in your family, him as the husband and father, someone who loves Christ, who is making a new way, who is starting a new generation, who is the first Christian male. And, in his known family tree. And he talks about him and his brother, you know, looking at their family tree. Yeah. And m saying that we're the first Christians that we know. What has that been like for you, Amy, to watch that transformation and to know where he came from and to have watched so much of his story with him and to see where he is today?

>> Amy Rienow: Well, it has given me a sense of perspective that I don't think I would have had. in the sense that what God can do in one. What God can do when he gets a hold of one person's heart, who wants to live wholeheartedly for him and who's willing to listen to his voice and follow his leading, even in this area of painful family relationships. Because it was really Rob and his brothers and even his ex wife. Rob's mom played a role in the way that they loved his dad. Despite the brokenness that really led to his dad's eventual, acceptance of the gospel and the time that we spent with his dad before his dad passed away, we drove out there. When we found out he accepted Lord we're in Chicago. We literally put the kids in the car. We had five kids at the time and said, we're driving to Connecticut tomorrow because we had to be there and to see him. He had been diagnosed with cancer. But to see my husband come back with this sense of God answering all those prayers all those years, and I'll never forget what he said. He goes, I just spent the best day of my life with my dad, with the conversations that they were having. And to see that not to give up on hope, on not only someone's salvation, but also in healing and reconciliation, you know, it's just. It was incredible.

Rob says he waited a really, really long time for reconciliation

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think that's the other thing that I wanted to say that our listeners need to hear, because so often we long for reconciliation. But you said his dad was in his 90s when this happened. I mean, Rob waited a really, really long time for that to happen. And you could look back and think, why didn't God do that earlier? Why didn't that happen earlier? But to turn that into gratitude and to be grateful that it happened, because there are many people who, who that happens. You know, their loved ones die without ever having that. Reconciliation is such a blessing. And Amy, Rob shared a really sweet story about you and your kids. When you found out that his dad had cancer, the kids wanted to write cards. Can you share a little bit about that and what role that played in his dad accepting Christ?

>> Amy Rienow: Yes, yes. Because, I kind of have to back up because we couldn't get everything in the book of that story. But we had been. Had a relationship with his dad. We were very on cordial basis. But, what had happened in the last visit is I, for the first time, I experienced an anger and hostility from his dad towards me that was so uncomfortable. And it all had to do with the fact that we had written. My daughter, had written him a letter about the gospel. And that had made my, father in law very angry at that. And he had been very firm that he never wanted me or the kids to ever talk about the gospel again with him. So when we got the news that, Papa Bill had been diagnosed with cancer, we all. I said kids were going to write them cards. Every one of the kids wrote incredible strong scriptures and gospel messages in these cards. And they were very strong gospel messages. M. not verses that you would normally share. But I felt very convicted not to censor any of it. Just let it be what it is. But it did require this level of faith. Like, you know, he was angry, at the kids Doing my daughter doing this before. So it was an act of faith to say, okay, this is what we're sending and I'm trusting the Lord with this. And it was those cards that my father, in law asked to be read and taped up in his room. And those were the cards that he referred to when he was turning his heart to the Lord and receiving forgiveness for his sins. So it was just a reminder even in those last moments to not respond with his rejection and anger that we'd already received in the previous visit, but to respond with how the Holy Spirit was leading us in the moment. And Rob was actually out of town when this process. He was speaking somewhere and he jokes about that. If he were there, he probably would have censored some of the cards. I think it's a little different, you know, in his role. I think he felt nervous about it. And yet, you know, it's again leading and leaning into the Holy Spirit and trusting him in those moments. But those precious cards were really part of Papa Bill salvation story.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I think that's a beautiful thing about kids. They can say something that an adult really can't. You know, they have that, that kind of freedom to do that. And another beautiful part of the story you can tell. I read this voraciously, Amy, because I'm in a stage in my life, I'm still praying for reconciliation between some family relationships. And so reading this was really encouraging. And the other part of that, all of that happening was it was his ex wife, it was Rob's mom, who was there in the hospital with her current husband. They felt compelled to go and visit and share the gospel. And he said, and his, Rob's dad said, go get these cards. And it all came together and, and he accepted Christ. And I just think that's really beautiful. And to know that we don't give up hope until that dying breath. There is always hope. As long as there is life, there is always hope. And a big part of this, you know, one of the things I love about the book too, Amy, is that it goes through healing through so many different things. Healing through prayer, repentance, listening, acceptance, spiritual warfare, boundaries. But all of these are framed with a healing journey in mind. It's not about resolving the situation. It's not here's a 10 step process to fix this relationship. It's hey, here's how to be okay when things are not okay. Here's how to heal even when that relationship doesn't heal. And I love that. And you start with the power of Forgiveness. And it can be so difficult. And so what did you see as Rob's process in forgiving his dad?

>> Amy Rienow: Mm, well, that is something that, his youth pastor really taught to him and it stuck with him. And it's been transformative for me and for our whole family. But how important it is to first forgive with the will, like, even when you don't feel like forgiving and even when the other person doesn't apologize or feel like they've done anything wrong. Especially with Rob's story, his dad never apologized really for any of his behavior and for, for the things that had really caused the breakup of the family. And Rob really had to work through this forgiveness with the will, meaning that he was choosing to forgive his father, even though his father wasn't asking for forgiveness and even though his emotions were not in line with what he knew he was supposed to do. But his youth pastor rightfully encouraged him to write down everything his dad has done and to forgive him by, and just say, I choose to forgive my dad even though I don't feel like it. He went through that whole list and then he talks about the next phase, which is forgiveness with the heart. And that is something that only God can do. So phase one, he had to do that. He had made the choice with his will at first. And then we'll talk in the next section about what it means, to forgive from the heart.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: We absolutely will, Amy. It is, it's all about that will. That intense saying, okay, I'm going to obey. It's about obedience because God commands us to forgive. And then the heart will follow. We have so much more coming up with Amy Reno and her story and talking about healing family relationships. We're going to give you a five step apology when we come back. You won't want to miss it because of listeners like you. PreBorn helped to rescue over 67,000 babies. Your $28 to sponsor one ultrasound doubled a baby's chance at life. Your tax- deductible gift saves lives. Please join us in this life saving mission. To donate, go to preborn.com/AFR. Will you take a moment and celebrate life with me?

Last year, Preborn helped to rescue over 67,000 babies from abortion

Last year, PreBorn helped to rescue over 67,000 babies from abortion. Hi, this is Jessica Peck, host of the Dr. Nurse Mama Show. And I want to thank you for your partnership. Think about what you did. 67,000 babies are taking their first breath now because of you. Your $28 sponsored one ultrasound that was given to a woman as she was deciding about the future of her child. Once she saw her precious baby for the first time and heard their sweet heartbeat, her baby's chance at life doubled. But preborn's mission is not only to rescue babies lives, but also to lead women to Christ. Last year PreBorn network clinic saw 8,900 women receive salvation. Your help is crucial to continue their life saving work. Your caring tax- deductible donation saves lives. So please be generous. To donate, go to preborn.com/AFR, that's preborn.com/AFR, or dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby, your love can save a life. Preborn's whole mission is to rescue babies from abortion and lead their families to Christ. Last year Preborn's network of clinics saw 8,900 mothers come to Christ. Please join us in this life saving mission. To donate go to preborn.com/AFR Come as You Are by Crowder so. Lay down your burdens lay down your. Shame. All who are broken lift up your face oh wanderer, come home you're not too far so lay down your hurt lay down your heart Come as you are.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That song is Come as You Are by Crowder. And hey, that's what I'm inviting you to do today, to come as you are.

Rob Rienow wrote a book called Healing Family Relationships about forgiveness

Do you have broken family relationships? Do you have a broken heart over the brokenness in your family? I know, I have experienced that and it is so painful. And you can ask God, why, why is this happening? But we know that God loves us. He sees us, he knows us. And we're talking today to Amy Rienow Her husband, Rob wrote a book called Healing Family Relationships, A Guide to Peace and Reconciliation. And if this is you, if you are going through family conflict, if you are having trouble forgiving a family member, whether that's a parent or a child or another extended family member, I really encourage you to get a copy of this book. It's called Healing Family Relationships by Rob Rienow That's R I E N O W. It is a really transformational process and it's all about healing because, because you can heal, even if that relationship doesn't reconcile. And we've learned Rob's powerful story of having a dad who was born into brokenness, who had a son who was born into brokenness, who was married multiple times, divorced, and had just a life of rebellion against God, but came to know the Lord when he was in his 90s, before he died of cancer. And Rob had forgiven him a long time before that though, and waited a time to see that. And so, Amy, you were just talking about. Amy, forgiving his father and looking at all of the things that he had done. It would be easy to say, you know, that Rob was justified in having anger. But. But you talked about he forgave him with this will and the heart. And I'm like, I'm going to let you pick it up from there.

>> Amy Rienow: Well, he. For. Yes, he forgave him with his will, despite his feelings. Like, the feelings were not there. It was a really, what I'd call a gritty choice. His pastor really encouraged him to forgive him, even though there were still all of hurtful feelings and anger and disappointment and, failure, all these feelings in Rob. And yet the next part of that forgiveness phase is what we call forgiveness with the heart, which is really the part of the Holy Spirit. You cannot heal your own heart. You cannot take away that hurt. And I think that's part of people's barriers and forgiveness is they think, oh, I, tried to forgive him. It didn't work. Well, this is the part where you have to. And this is what Rob did. Enter in prayer at a regular basis saying, lord, I have forgiven my dad. Please heal my heart. Please heal my heart of the hurt. And only Jesus has the power to do that, which is exactly what he did. In Rob's heart. He tells the story that one day he got up, in college, and he went to go shave, and he started thinking about his dad. And instead of having hurt and anger there, the emotion was compassion. And he was like, well, that's kind of new. I didn't have that feeling before. He began to see his dad really the way the Lord saw his dad. And God gave Rob the eyes for his dad in a completely different light. That allowed Rob to live many more years in ministry to his dad, reaching out to his dad. And that only can happen through the power of the Holy Spirit. So we always see that second stage of forgiveness of the heart is God's work. So the first stage, forgiving. The first phase, forgiving with the will, is a choice. You have to make that choice. But that second phase, forgiveness with the heart, is God's work in our lives. And we. It can take maybe a few weeks or it could take years. But we trust the Lord, with his ability to heal those wounds because only he can. And then the final phase is reconciliation. And that requires both parties to be involved. And that's the other thing that people often mistaken that, you know, you may have forgiveness in the heart towards someone that's hurt you, but there may never be a reconciled relationship because they've never either acknowledged that or wanted to re enter in a relationship with you. Or for example, with Rob and his dad, the relationship with he had with him was somewhat superficial because his dad had never, you know, confessed really any of his sin or attempted a reconciliation process with Rob. But the beautiful part about that story is when, Rob's dad was ready for that to happen in his 90s, Rob was eager for it because of the work that God had done beforehand. So we want to be responsible for our part that we allow the Lord to work forgiveness so that when the opportunity for reconciliation arises, we are ready. So I can talk further about that. But that is the forgiveness process that.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Is such an important message. Amy, you know, looking at, ah, really it was Rob's obedience meeting God's faithfulness. And when that happened, he was ready for it. And Rob tells a really beautiful story from the Bible about this, about Joseph, who of course his brother sold him into slavery. And it wasn't until years later that he met them and, and they had reconciliation. And he weaves that biblical narrative into his story. But Joseph's heart was ready to forgive his brothers and, and, and just like Rob's heart was ready to forgive his dad. And I think that's really the important thing. I think a lot of people, and myself included, you kind of have this fantasy of this magical moment that's going to happen, that that person who hurt you is going to call and they're going to apologize. They're going to see the error of their ways, see everything they've done, and they're going to weep and say, oh please forgive me, I can't believe I did this. And your heart will instantly, instantly melt. And that's how reconciliation will happen. And Amy, I think that's one of the most powerful things about Rob's story is looking at the years of work that he did to be prepared for that moment to happen and having that happen in such a different way.

Rob writes about how to teach children how to apologize biblically

And one of the other powerful things that's in here is talking about apologizing. And when someone hurts us, you know, we think, oh well they had, they did these awful things that are so much worse than anything that I did to them. But we still have to make that habit of apologizing. And you have this five step apology, these five step conversation, five powerful ingredients when we're asking for forgiveness from a family member. So let's flip the narrative a little bit and I want to talk about this. Tell me about these five steps.

>> Amy Rienow: Yes, I think that what that experience taught Rob is how important to teach our own children and ourselves how to apologize biblically. Biblically, because we have to take responsibility for our actions. And, often families just don't know how, or they just have grown up with I'm sorry, and someone says it's fine, and then you move on. But it hasn't really addressed the situation. So the first step in a biblical apology is to confess the problem, to confess what you did, very humbly and honestly, to confess it. so if you're dealing with a child who just hit a sibling, I confess that I hit you, I hurt you. And the second one, which is really key, is to say, I was wrong to do that.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's tough.

>> Amy Rienow: So many times we want to say we're sorry without saying I was wrong. And that one really, I feel like, is amazing how much it trips adults as well. There's a lot of, I'm sorry if that hurt you. I'm sorry if you were offended. But really being able to say, I'm sorry for talking negatively about you, that was wrong. That was wrong of me. And then you say, you express your regret. You express that your actions hurt them. And that is, where we really get to the words I'm sorry. But it's I'm sorry, then that has a lot more understanding. Like, I understand now, and I. I realize that I've hurt you, and it makes me, You know, I feel. That's the empathy. I feel that. That pain that I've caused you, and I regret causing you that. And then the next part is a statement that says, you know, and I really don't want to do it again. I really am committing to not, you know, to make that same mistake again. I'm not perfect. It doesn't mean that I won't make mistakes. But I want to tell you that, my. My, desire is to not hurt you like that again. And then finally you give that. You say to the person, will you forgive me? And you offer that question as opposed to the mindset, okay, I've apologized, I've done everything. Now you're supposed to forgive me. You end it with, will you forgive me? It's still a place of humility, recognizing that you are in need of that person's forgiveness and that you would appreciate it.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: This is so much easier said than done. But I find that a lot of families who experience trauma, especially as parents, as spouses, you have a really hard time apologizing, because if you apologize, that means I did Something wrong. And then if I did something wrong, that means I'm not worthy of love because I'm trying to perform my way to earn your love. Because I don't know what unconditional love looks like. So, let me review in case you were listening quickly and thinking, what were those, what were those, steps? It's confession, acknowledge I was wrong. And this sentence is in the book, Amy. It says, our pride is like a cork in our mouths that prevents these words from escaping. That was conviction, addicting.

>> Amy Rienow: That is so well written.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Isn't that true? Step three, express regret. Say, I am sorry. I am sorry this happened. and then four, commit to change. Five, ask for forgiveness. I think one of the things you said that's really important, Amy, is teaching your children how to do this. Because we do hurt each other. But having this model of humility and apology, it can really go a long way in preserving your relationships and changing that cycle. And that's one of the things that I've learned. Because you think when you experience trauma like Rob did, you think, okay, well, I'm not going to be a dad like that. I'm going to be faithful to my wife, I'm not going to get divorced, I'm going to love God, I'm going to go to church. But until you learn, relearn new ways to relationally communicate, that cycle has a chance, a greater chance of continuing. And so this is such a beautiful example, I think, of learning a new relationship skill to intentionally do something different. And Amy, I wanna stop here and ask you about your experience as a wife, because this isn't your dad, this is your father in law, which is a different feeling. And I know there's a lot of spouses who support their spouse through difficult family circumstances where there are moments where you feel, feel like it was frustrating, it was taking so long. Is it hard to watch your spouse have so much emotional energy that's expended in this way to see them suffer? What lessons have you learned as a spouse supporting someone through this?

>> Amy Rienow: Oh, well, I think maybe because this is his book and not mine, that there's not, equal stories of my side of, you know, in many ways I would say, say, you know, there's not a family that doesn't experience significant brokenness. And I had difficulty with my parents, who are both believers, but difficult challenges in our relationship. And Rob really, you know, I think was helped steady me through all of these things in some ways because at such a young age he had learned a process of, forgiving his father for such a, major, you know, a major upset in his family that resulted in divorce, resulted in him having to switch schools and move and all of those things that for a teenager is just so traumatizing. He then also, it was a mutual supporting thing because when I was dealing with, in my 20s, just hurts of my own relationships with my parents, he was able to help me with that process of how to forgive them, how to not let that emotion rob my joy out of my, dealing with my own children, you know what I mean? Not let that get caught up in that hurt. So that it had this devastating effect on my daily relationships. We all deal with hurt in close relationships. They go hand in hand. So. So, you know, Rob, actually I felt like it was on, because of his history as a young man, was able to use that very wisely to help me when I was facing a lot of things as a young mother and learning how to forgive my parents with this type of process. And again, when I say forgive my parents, this is not for. They didn't blow up my family. They didn't do the things that he did. But there were things that I needed to learn to forgive them for. And I think there's all things that, you know, that we need to learn. And there's degrees of brokenness and health in all of our relationships. And yeah, so that's beautiful, Amy.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That, that's beautiful. And I know I tell this to my kids all the time. I'll tell them, look, I know that you have a front row seat to see m the areas and your dad and I's lives where we're broken, but hopefully what you see is us walking together towards healing. You see us dependent on God, knowing we cannot do any of this on our own. And I think of the verse, Amy, you know, bear one another's burdens and in so doing fulfill the law of Christ. And that's such a beautiful picture of walking through that together. And I know that prayer is a really big part of this, a part of your family, a part of your journey. How. And sometimes people, you know, they even maybe give up on prayer and they think I'm going to stop even praying for reconciliation because it's never going to happen. How have you used prayer in your family?

>> Amy Rienow: Well, I think first of all is to never, ever give up on a relationship that's important to you and to continue to pray against all odds, I would say. And to, you know, and to pray against your feelings when your feelings are not in line with your prayers. You know, I would say that even when it comes to just the healing that Rob and I have to go through in our own marriage, with our own. I mean, we come into this marriage. He came from a, home that didn't really model how to handle conflict very well. I mean, his parents ended up in divorce. I come from a home that has its own background and history of how my parents handled things. So we had a lot to learn as a couple. And I think one of the most important things is to learn is to pray. Even when we don't want to pray with each other, when we're feeling so hurt, in our own relationship. But when you can pray in those dark moments and you can hold your hands to the person, even when there's so much hurt and anger and you reach out to each other and you seek the Lord, you are inviting the Prince of peace into the situation, and it will bring a softening of your heart. And again, we have to learn to be guided by the Holy Spirit and not by. By our emotions.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Easier said than done, but so encouraging. It's so encouraging to know that you're not alone. That really is encouraging. When we come back, Amy, I want to talk about the difference between acceptance and boundaries. When you have a difficult family situation, really, those are kind of your two choices. And Rob talks about that and the choice that he made. And we'll talk about that when we come back. More with Amy Rienow When we come back. Back. the month of June has been hijacked by the anti Christian culture to show their pride in something God calls an abomination. When you support afr, you help us continue to stand for godly values and provide the resources for you to stay in the know about the enemy's tactics. To say thank you for your gift. This month, we'll give you the booklet inside the the LGBTQ push of the 1990s. To help strengthen your convictions, just go to afr.net/offers afr.net/offers Bring dry bones to life and Do what you are famous for. What you are famous for.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Famous For (I Believe) by Christine D'Clario and Tauren Wells. And I do believe that God can restore broken family relationships. And even if those relationships are not fully restored this side of heaven, I believe he can restore and heal your heart and your soul. So I'm talking to you. If that is you, if you're walking that road, if you have brokenness in your family, if there are relationships that still make your heart squeeze and you think about the tension and the brokenness, the separation there. This show is for you. We're talking about family relationships, a guide to peace and reconciliation. It's written by Rob Rienow, R I E N O W. You can go to their website, he and his wife amy at visionary fam. That's like family visionaryfam.com and I really encourage you to get a copy of this book if that is you. If you are seeking healing from a broken relationship, this book is all about healing. The chapters walk you through different ways of healing, different spiritual exercises, healing through prayer, repentance, listening, acceptance, spiritual warfare, boundaries, compassion, patience, mediators, mercy, and finding healing through the generations. I really encourage you if you've been thinking, I know I've needed to do something about that, but I just haven't done it. This is your sign. This is the, the prompting that you need to do that.

Rob writes about having two choices about accepting his father's brokenness

And Amy, in Rob's story, which he's been sharing about the story of brokenness from his dad and then reconciliation right before his dad died in his 90s, Rob talked about having really two choices. He framed it as in he knew his dad was not ready to change, was not going to change his behaviors, was not going to apologize and he had to accept it or he had to put up boundaries and he chose where he was at, his life in that moment to accept it in some way. Now that didn't mean to endorse his behavior, to say, yeah, it's fine, you can do all of those things, but just to accept that that's the limitations that his dad had and you have shared with me, Amy, you had that same experience. So talk about what does it look like to accept those, those that, that brokenness as is.

>> Amy Rienow: Right, right. Well, I think one of the most powerful script, verses is accept one another, just as Christ accepted you. And Rob writes in the chapter on acceptance, he says every one of your family members comes with baggage. And that is very, very true. And I think there's ways that we have to accept on a, like macro level, accept our other family members, you know where they're at. But there's also micro level things. I want to share a little story from my relationship with my dad. My dad really grew up in a generation where parents did not apologize to their children. That was not in their lexicon. So almost like it was just like that would not be what a good parent would do. And so even though even he was not a Christian, he became a Christian after Rob and I were married and we saw a lot of transformation. But this was an area that was really, I think, kind of rigid for him. And we had gone out. We live in the same community as my parents, and we'd gone through some difficult conversation or something had happened the night before that was extremely hurtful to me. And my mom was able to recognize that what my dad said was very, very hurtful. And I was just very broken by a kind of continued pattern in my. From my dad's, in my relationship with him. And, you know, I would really love a. An apology just like we walked through in the segment. I'm sorry, I confess that was wrong. Like, that would have been nice, you know, but it was so interesting. My dad is not the type of person just to stop by. He literally stopped by my house that week with a Starbucks coffee for me. And he stopped by to say hi, and he stopped by to say hi to the kids, and he handed me this coffee. You know, we weren't talking about anything that had happened, and. But, you know, it was very out of character for him to do it. And then he went on his way to work, and the Lord just. The Holy Spirit convicted me. Like, that is your apology. Are you going to accept it? And it really was my dad's way of apologizing, and it just opened, my eyes. Like, if I have this standard where I think that people have to. If I'm offended and they have to follow a certain set of rules, how is that accepting others as Christ accepted me? so we can have areas of mini acceptance or large acceptance. But I would say that was such a lesson that the Lord told me, this is where your dad is at. This is his apology. Can you go on? Can you accept that and move forward and let this go?

Rob says you always ask who apologizes first in your family

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: One of the things I was going to say, one of the things that Rob shares in the book, that it's in your family, is you always ask who apologizes first? And you think it's the one who did the greater wrong. But you say, the more mature one apologizes first. And I would say the one who is more mature accepts that apology to recognizing the limitations of the other person, whether that be from past trauma or from spiritual immaturity or whatever it is. And that's what I see happening there, that you just. You accept that because you know what God did for you.

>> Amy Rienow: And I also think it's so important that when you are operating in the power of the Holy Spirit and you're trying to change patterns in your family and your behavior, you can only do what God has put Right in front of you to do. You cannot control other people's behavior. So that was my test, Chance, test of obedience to the Holy Spirit. I mean, it was clear that I needed to just forgive my dad and let it go, you know, and that was really eye opening to me. And it's so interesting because now my dad can say, I'm sorry. Fifteen years later, that changed, you know, and we want to have a lot of grace for ourselves in the sanctifying process. And we really need to understand that, God is doing that same sanctifying processes in our other family members, other people in our lives. And we have to be patient with that process in other people. And it feels like we're patient with ourselves, too.

Sometimes relationships are so abusive that you need some distance before accepting boundaries

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's one of the illustrations that stood out to me in the book, is thinking about the wrongs that someone has committed towards you. And Rob instructs people to think of a scale and to start putting pennies or something on that scale to everything that they do. Start seeing the weight of their offense against you, and then on the other side, start putting the weight of your offense against God. Everything that we have done wrong, all of the ways that we have sinned, that we have fallen short, and in those ways, it can become easier to accept the limitations of someone else. But sometimes that's not always possible. And Rob clearly acknowledges that in the book. And I know you feel the same way. And sometimes relationships are so abusive or so toxic or just so emotionally harmful, you need some distance and space to heal before you can go and have that acceptance. And so sometimes you have to put up boundaries. And a lot of people feel like boundaries means I'm rejecting my family. But boundaries can be a tool for healing rather than an instrument of division. So what do you see as the difference between acceptance and boundaries? What are some biblical principles that can guide us?

>> Amy Rienow: That's such a good question, Jessica. You know, you can accept certain things that aren't causing harm to you personally or harm to your children. And that harm can be physical, emotional, it can be spiritual, harm. And there will be occasions where the Lord needs you. You have to learn the skill, I would say, of putting up an appropriate boundary in a toxic relationship like that. Because you know that if you allowed it continue, it's just you're allowing a sinful pattern, a destructive pattern to grow, and you are not doing anything to stop it. And the other thing that Rob and I learned in a pain, in somewhat of a painful way, but, you know, often we're putting up internalized boundaries and the other people don't really know what we're doing. Like, let's say you have a relationship in your family that is causing you a lot of grief every time you get, you know, get together in certain situations. So you, you're not physically. You're not really addressing the situation directly with the person, but you're indirectly operating in new ways. Okay, well, we're not going to let. We're not going to invite that person to our house. Like, we might be willing to go there. So then, you know, just think about how the other person feels on their side of it. It's like, obviously the relationship is changing, but from their perspective, it's very confusing. Like, why is this now not going? Like, why can we not get together here? Or why, you know, they don't understand. And so it's really a loving thing to be very direct. And when you feel like you can't be, let's say you've got grandparents that are, you know, speaking in an abusive way towards your children, and you've tried, you know, and you don't know how to manage it. You have to actually say to them, you know, we need to put a boundary on our time with you right now because of the way that you're speaking to the kids. And it's not that we don't love you and we want to work on this part of the relationship, but we, like you said, need some time to heal and we need to move direct with you that we need to see some of these behaviors change so that we can enjoy a great relationship together. But it's that directness that gives clarity to the boundary. And I just think so many Christians, like you said, they feel. We feel like we're doing something wrong if we put up any kind of restriction on relationship. And that is just not true. And it's not biblical.

Rob says Joseph required a boundary to test relationships to see if they were safe

And you really have to get the book because we don't have much time to talk on this show. But Rob does such a great job with the story of Joseph and really explaining the concept of, boundaries in that story. It is very clear, that Joseph required a boundary in order to test the relationship to see if the relationships were safe. Again, for him to enter into the relationships with his brothers.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's so encouraging because it is biblical and I'm finishing up a Bible study in the book of Numbers, actually, which you think, what can we learn from numbers? But honestly, mostly what I'm learning is boundaries. God is constantly giving the people boundaries, whether that's physical boundaries of their territory, boundaries on their relationship boundaries, on their behavior boundaries, on how they apologize and how, you know, all of those things. Boundaries are biblical. And, you know, one of the things I learned, Amy, is that, you know, when I became a wife and mother, we, in a biblical model of family, we have that greatest responsibility toward our immediate family. My husband is my main priority. My children are my main priority. And when, especially when they're in my home and under my care and they're still young. And what I found was that a lot of those other relationships that I had were very, what I called emotionally expensive. And I only had so much emotional reserve in my bank. Yes, this is what it was like. And. And then those I would allow. I had no boundaries. So those relationships would come in and I'd allow them to make limited, unlimited withdrawals. And then I had no emotional reserve left for my family. And then what I discovered, Amy, is that my kids were bearing the cost of that. They were the ones who were paying the cost. And that's how we carry that through generations. And so I had to put up a boundary that was loving to say, you know what? I have to reserve this emotional energy for my kids that comes first. And if I have whatever I have left over from that, I will put that towards this relationship. But I've got to put the boundary that. That comes first. But I. I hear from people all the time who think that is so scary to go up and put a boundary. Because like you said, Amy, you may have been putting up with. With, behavior that's been going on for years. And then all of a sudden people say, wait, what? This is not. What do you mean? This is not okay. This is how we've done things for 20 years.

>> Amy Rienow: Exactly right. And usually the one putting up the boundary is viewed as the problem child or the one who is. When you're in an unhealthy system and there's an unhealthy pattern, and you are the one putting the stop to it, usually everyone in that unhealthy pattern is going to look at you as the bad guy. And that's something that we really need to accept. We see this also in scripture, even Jesus words of, you know, when he, you know, when the guy calls him to be a disciple and he says, well, I got to go back and say goodbye to my dad or something. No, you have to come with me now. You know, when you're called to a different pattern, sometimes it's going to require a kind of a drastic cutoff in order to, you know, get out of that dysfunctional and toxic system in order to learn a new, healthier way and to learn God's way. And the people around you will probably be upset with you or view you as the bad guy. And that's when you have to really, you know, know that you're walking in step. The Holy Spirit and trust is leading. Pray that you have unity with your spouse. but you need to be able to, you know, grow in a healthy space, I would say. And sometimes you can't do that growth if you can't get into a healthy space.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: So so much of that is being reconciled to God knowing that you're walking, like you just said, in step with the Holy Spirit. So when you lay your head down on the pillow at night, you know that you are walking in obedience to God, no matter what anybody else says.

If you need healing in your family relationships, start with this book

Well, Amy, we. I've said the last time you were on. I feel like this is to be continued. Get the book. Get the copy of the book. Healing Family Relationships A Guide to Peace and Reconciliation by Rob Rienow R I E N O w go to visionaryfam.com Amy, I'd love to give you last minute and a half for a, word of encouragement.

>> Amy Rienow: Yeah, I just want to tell everyone out there that you are. And this may sound. This may sound harsh, but you're not the victim when you are walking with the Lord. The Lord has a way for you. He has a path for you. He promises that he is going to give you abundant life. And it is the enemy that wants to steal, kill, and destroy. So I just want to encourage you, whatever your situation is, if you are feeling like you are a victim or you can't, that you're just, part of a toxic system, God has a way for you, and he's your heavenly Father. He loves you, he accepts you, and he has a path for you. So trust Him. And you are not a victim when you are. You are more than a conqueror when you are a child of the king.

>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Amen. Romans 8, one of my favorite chapters in all of the Bible. It's so true. And I encourage you to read Robin, Amy's really amazing story. And they talk about breaking generational cycles, looking at breaking rocks and pulling weeds. And when you think about the parable of the sower and the seed, I love that. So I encourage and challenge all of you. Break rocks and pull weeds in your family. Don't give up. If you need healing in your family relationships, start with this book, a guide to peace and reconciliation. Wherever you are in that journey, I pray The Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face shine upon you. And can't wait to see you back here tomorrow. We got a great week. Don't miss it. See you then.

>> Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Amy Rienow, co-founder of Visionary Family Ministries, talks with Jessica about healing family relationships

Rx for Hope: Heal Family Relationships

https://visionaryfam.com/