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Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection and the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, Pediatric Nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. Listen, I want you to buckle in today. We have got a very complex day topic that I am going to dive into head first today to equip you. We all know we are living in a moment where science is moving faster than most families can process. I think about when I was in nurse practitioner school in the literal previous century. As my kids like to tell me, that was in the last century, Mom. But right around the turn of the century I was started school before the human genome was even mapped. So I think about the rapid evolution of science just in my healthcare career and technologies that once sounded like science fiction and were presented in popular culture as science fiction. Things like gene editing or embryo screening or even the idea of designing children. These topics are now entering everyday conversations with wide access to information, with everyday people becoming more savvy consumers of healthcare information. These are everyday conversations, especially for families who are walking through the deep PA of infertility. And for many Christian families, this is not a theoretical issue. This is something that's deeply personal. The longing for a child, the grief of waiting, the hope offered by modern medicine. It can collide with deeply held beliefs about life and dignity and God's design. These are very sacred, sensitive spaces and conversations like this can feel overwhelming sometimes and maybe even divisive. I've seen this even within Christian communities as we we grapple with the ethics of science. So today we're approaching this topic with care. We acknowledge that this is complex, that faithful believers will wrestle with these things. And as medical advances become more accessible and widely discussed, we must grow in discernment. We've got to hold tightly to a biblical worldview while also recognizing the limits of our own understanding. And Psalm 139 reminds us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made knit together by God himself. But what does that mean in a modern age where humans can intervene earlier and more precisely than ever before? There's some benefits and there's some real danger spots. I also, before I introduce my guest, I want to make sure that you know about the program Hannah's Heart, right here on American Family Radio. There is a great community with continued compassionate conversation around issues of infertility and faith. And so today's goal is not to give you easy answers, because some things that we talk about, there will be some easy answers. Some of them will just make you think deeply and biblically and wisely. And we have got some brilliant minds here today. With us to do that, we have two guests. Our first is Dr. James L. Sherley He is a Harvard trained physician, scientist and CEO of Asymmetrics. And Dr. Sherley is a leading voice in adult stem cell research and a founding member of the Science alliance for Life and Technology, called salt, working at the intersection of cutting edge science and human dignity. We also have Dr. Tara Sander Lee. Now, she is a biochemist with other with over 30 years of experience in research, clinical medicine, public policy. She has advised lawmakers, testified before Congress, is a national leader in ethical science, and she brings both professional expertise and personal experience with infertility and IVF. So, Dr. Sherley Dr. Sander Lee, thank you so much for the work that you do and thank you for joining us today. We're so glad to have you here.
Dr. James L. Sherley: Thank you, Dr. Peck so much for having us.
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: For having us.
Discussion. When does human life begin? Dr. Sander Lee says development begins with fertilization
Dr. James L. Sherley: Discussion.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, as science advances, one of the oldest questions remains. When does human life begin? And this is something that we're seeing discussed, I think, even more and more and more. And when we look at how scientific discovery really is reflective of, of biblical truth, we've got an intersection on the value and dignity of every, every human life. We all know, most of us know the, the, the verse from Psalm139 that we're knit together in our mother's womb. But what does that mean? Dr. Sander Lee, I'll stop with you. I'll start with you. What does current science reveal from your perspective about where human life actually begins?
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: Well, we're not in the Middle Ages anymore. we know exactly when human life begins. The dynamics of fer and human development are absolutely well established. So we know exactly, and, you know, science confirms what we already know to be true. So when we look at the world's leading textbooks on embryology, it clearly states that human development begins with fertilization. we know this also because the Carnegie stages of development that were established decades ago are used as the method to explain the different stages of development within the early embryo, embryonic period. And the very first stage is fertilization, right? When the sperm fertilizes, when the sperm and the egg actually fuse together and create, an absolutely unique human being that is alive from that very first stage. And it's just, it's amazing like how much, how much development happens just within the first days, few days of development. And some of the terms that are used to describe human development, like a zygote, right, when that sperm and the egg fuse and then a blastocyst five days later, these are just terms that are used to describe that early nascent human being. No different than the terms we use to describe infant or toddler. But these are human beings. They are no different than a human being outside the womb. They're just at a different stage of development. I just want to remind the listeners that the first organ to form and function in a human being is the heart. It is actually beating rhythmically and pumping blood just 20 days after conception. So these are facts. and I just want to also remind your, your listeners that I think it's so beautiful how you reminded people of Psalm139 and how we're knit together in the mother's womb. You know, when King David wrote those, you know, words and that beautiful psalm thousands of years ago. We know now because of the work of Watson and Crick, when they, when they determine the structure of DNA, the DNA is literally woven together like two strand. And that's what, like, it would. One of the main tools that God uses to make us all so unique. And so it's just, it's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful what we know. And the facts are absolutely clear.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, you know, Dr. Sander Lee as I said in the setup here in the introduction, some things that we're going to talk about today are blessedly clear. And like you talked about, you know, from my perspective too, it doesn't matter what source you look at if we're talking about secular science or not. This is, like you said, what is in the textbooks, and this is something that is more, more clear.
Question of when human life begins has persisted for almost 50 years
Dr. Sherley what would you add to that and what are some of the conversations that you're seeing today to debate what, what Dr. Sander Lee has, has so beautifully laid before us?
Dr. James L. Sherley: So I would say that, one of the challenges that you have with information that is so apparent is that it can still be confused by people who wish to or people for the public not to know the truth. And we saw the beginning of that with Roe. Roe, which gave us this question of when this life began, when there was no need for a question, persisted for almost 50 years. As a scientist, it's mind boggling that we could have such fundamental information known and yet the court system not have it. So one of the most powerful things that happened recently is the Dobbs ruling because it takes the information that Dr. Sander Lee just described and it puts it into the legal system. So you know, they're, they're back when Roe was deleted, our knowledge about the start of human life. We knew back then that all animals on the planet are formed by the format, the, the fusion of, of egg and sperm. Fertilization is fundamental for animals on this planet and for human beings. And yet the court ignored that. If you look in the court ruling for Roe, there's no science there. And so one of the things that Saud is about, is trying to make sure that the science that we know is incorporated into our lives, into our legal decisions. and so I think that there's this information that we just simply need to make sure that everybody has it. Education is a very important part of this. That we teach this in our schools, that we teach this in our churches, that we teach this in our representative meetings. again it's a fundamental. And the one last thing I'll add, Dr. Practice this, this question about does life really begin, does human life begin fertilization? We have definitively shown that now we're going to talk later about in vitro fertilization. But that's what fertilization teaches us, that the moment that we put the two together, that a human being starts, is conceived. And so this is fundamental knowledge and we shouldn't, we shouldn't obscure it, we shouldn't confuse it is clear and simple.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Dr. Sherley it's amazing to think about that every human being sitting here listening to this program today, their life started in the way that you both have just described. That is where all human life begins, at fertilization. And we were all at that stage and now here we all are. One of the common, you know, critiques I hear is about, ah, considering equitable ethics across the human lifespan. How do we look at the, what we believe about life beginning at conception and apply the principles of sanctity of human life across the spectrum, Especially when we're looking at all of these advances in medical technology that are really very quickly opening the door to some, some really slippery slopes, honestly, where we're saying, okay, just because we can, does it mean we should? Dr. Sherley I'll let you go first on that.
Dr. James L. Sherley: Yeah. So this is a real challenge. I think the thing we have to look at is this. The only thing that matters about how we treat each other is that we're human beings. It doesn't matter how old we are. It doesn't matter whether we're nascent. We're. That first zygote is what we. We call the first fusion of egg and sperm that develops into a child that's born and grows up as an adult. Our Christian teaching is that, we should love our neighbor, that we should do good unto others. We just need to apply that principle across the entire development spectrum of human beings. We have to take a look too, at how science develops. We have to make sure that the research that's being done also respects human life. One of the big challenges that we've had with nascent human beings was in 2001 with the development of embryonic stem cells. And the fundamental problem with the production, the ethical problem, the moral problem with the embryonic stem cell research is the destruction of human beings for that research. M. And so I think if we can learn that we are human beings at all times, then that changes how we treat human beings at any time.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Dr. Sander Lee, what, what do you want to add to this? And you know, I'm thinking about especially some families who, as we're. We're going to talk about in vitro fertilization in just a little bit and some designer babies. But generally speaking, there are some people who feel like they're well intentioned, they're trying to start their own. But how. How do we really look at some of the ethical dilemmas that can come up in that? And does the end really justify the means?
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: Yeah, and I think, and that's why salt is here, to help, to help people understand the complexities and the complexities of the science and then the ethics where that line is drawn. And I just want to. I want to say that as salt, we are. We are, we are pro science, right? We think science offers incredible promise to heal the human condition. Right? But science is going to fail when research and advancements rely on the intentional harm and destruction of human life. So that's why, as salt, we are pro science, but we are unequivocally pro life because we believe that destroying any human life, whether inside or outside the womb, right? So within vitro fertilization that occurs, that that conception that fertilization of the sperm and the egg coming together, that happens outside the womb. That's no lesser a human being than it is inside the womb when it happens under natural reproductive, you know, when it happens through natural reproduction. So we believe that, yes, any destroying any human being, whether inside or outside the womb at any stage, from the beginning of life until natural death is absolutely unethical or wrong. So our goal is to help people, understand that when it comes to science, there is an ethical way to do science. And that is always going to be the best way to do science. And there are.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm going to hold you right there. I'm going to hold you right there, Dr. Sander Lee, because that is a great place to go into our first break. And when we come back, we'll talk about how exactly Salt is doing that. We'll also talk about in vitro fertilization and the Christian family. We'll be right back. Stay with us. We'll see you after this break.
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SALT stands for Science alliance for Life and Technology
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Speak Life by TobyMac And that's what we're doing today. We are speaking life with SALT scientists. Now, SALT stands for Science alliance for Life and Technology. And we are talking today to Dr. James Sherley and Dr. Tara Sander Lee. Dr. Sherley is a Harvard trained physician scientist. Dr. Tara Sander Lee is a biochemist. And they both have incredible credentials. And we're talking about the meaning, the beginning of human life. And Dr. Sander Lee, we were right in the middle when we were rudely interrupted by the break here of talking about the ethical implications of research across the lifespan and what ethical lines might be blurred and what SALT is doing to help. And so I'm going to give it back to you there and we'll pick up right where we left off.
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So SALT is here to help people navigate these very challenging decisions. some of them are pretty easy, but some of them are complex like you said, within vitro fertilization. But at the end of the day, we are helping people understand that there is hope, that there is a better path forward where life can be respected and science can move forward and advancements can be made. So we point them to. There are several examples in history currently where alternatives are moving forward and where, advancements are being made and where no human life has to be harmed or exploited in the process from any stage. and so that's, that's really what SALT is here to do. And we're excited, we're excited. We want people to know that we're here to help. We're, we encourage people go to our website. We encourage people to stay informed and to really use us as a resource. And so I know we're going to be digging into some of these topics in detail, but we really want to help, let people know that we're here to help.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And I think people are more and more looking for answers because every day it seems like there's a new possibility for technology. And these just weren't conversations that were had every day. And Now I hear them a lot.
One of the most emotionally charged intersections of faith and science is infertility and IVF
And Dr. Sander Lee, I'll start with you, because when we understand when life begins, that shapes everything. Like you said, how we treat the unborn, how we approach medicine, how we define ethical responsibility and medical research. But one of the most emotionally charged intersections of faith and science that I'm seeing right now is infertility and ivf, because there are a lot of Christian families who really have a godly desire to have a family. They want to have biological children. And there are couples who are walking through this who see, you know, medical advancements. Like this is a miracle. And it's also a moral maze. Like, you know, we. It's hard to navigate that, because when you're accessing, you know, the point of care, there, there's different interests that different entities have in giving you a product. I mean, that's just the honest thing. And so that's where theology really meets personal longing and where a lot of faithful families wrestle. And so, Dr. Sanderly, I know you've testified in Congress before this. You had a lot of, personal, professional experience. Can you just walk us through a little bit? For those who maybe think, you know, I kind of know what that is, but I don't. Can you just give us a. In a nutshell, as much as that is possible, what is IVF and why the dilemma about it?
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: Yes, absolutely. So IVF stands for in vitro fertilization. It was initially designed and developed specifically for individuals that were struggling with fertility. And so it was meant to be kind of seen as a last resort, a quick fix. but I will tell you it is a workaround. It doesn't get into the actual root of the problem of infertility, but it is now being used as a method that anyone is experiencing any type of delay in getting pregnant naturally, that they are now swept into in vitro fertilization. Let me give you just a quick synopsis of what in vitro fertilization it is in which, like I mentioned earlier, these nascent human beings are conceived by this artificial reproductive, technology outside the womb. Okay? So in a test tube, in a Petri dish. So what they do is they will, they will give the mother drugs. She will have to give herself shots that were going to stimulate her ovaries to produce multiple eggs. They will then have to go in and then surgically remove those eggs, and then they will then take them back to the lab, they will collect sperm, and they will combine those eggs with the sperm in the lab and then. And then allowing fertilization to take place. Not all of them will fertilize. but then you will then be growing these embryos actually in a lab dish. Okay. And they will be growing for about five that stage. Then the embryos, they have different fates. often they are always graded. They're always looked at and seen, well, which ones appear to be the best, the ones that are going to have the best chance of survival. And there are many different ways that they do that, and we can get into the specifics of that. But sometimes they even look genetically and see which ones even have the best traits, which ones are devoid of disease. Then they pick what they consider to be the best embryos, and they transfer those first. The remaining ones are either frozen and maybe they go back to them later, or they are discarded if they're not wanted, or they're donated to research, where they will absolutely be discarded in the process and destroyed. What we're seeing within vitro fertilization is that there are many different pitfalls along the way. Two of the main ones that I want to focus on really quickly is that it's a very inefficient process. I think people think, oh, well, IVF creates babies in the lab. We want babies, right? So IVF is very pro life and acceptable. What's so wrong with ivf? I, think people need to understand that it's very efficient. A new study in 2026 just said that as IVF is becoming more and more popular, it's actually becoming less and less efficient. This study suggested that, it could be as low as 7% and maybe as high as just 7, 22% efficient, depending on the clinic. And so what that means is that a lot of these embryos are going to die. And we know just by conservative estimates and some of the studies that have been done, that it's leaving a trail of death and destruction. So over 90% of the embryos m. That are generated by in vitro fertilization, they're die. They destroy. They die. They're destroyed. They are frozen, or they're. Or they're, dis. Or they're discarded. They're just completely thrown away. So we think the conservative estimate estimates are that over 100 million embryos have actually died just from IVF alone. and that conservative estimates are that over 1.5 million embryos have been abandoned to the freezer. So it's inefficient. It doesn't even get to the heart issue. It's very destructive. These embryos are dying, and it's very eugenic. I mean, it fosters eugenic. This idea that certain people and their genes are somehow better and that they deserve a better chance at life. And so there's just. Maybe I'll stop there because I could talk forever. And that's not even, you know, so.
Dr. Jessica Peck: But Dr. Sander Lee, that's you. You really set it up very well, though, all along the way, like, from even before you step into that process until after that process is done. And like you said, you have embryos abandoned to the freezer. Dr. Sherley let's turn to you now and talk some more about this ethical tension. I want to go back to something specific that Dr. Sander Lee said. Let's. Let's take this for example. I remember the very first time I'm, a pediatric nurse practitioner, and I work in primary care. And I really. When I was working full time in primary care, I had very strong relationships with my families. And I remember this mother coming in who had done in vitro back when it was first coming onto the scene, and she brought me this piece of paper with a genetic profile of all of the embryos and ranking them from, you know, least desirable to most desirable. Their. Their sex was there. On. On the profile, asked me, which one do you think I should choose? And I, Honestly, I was completely unprepared for that moment. Just unprepared. I. I felt extremely overwhelmed. I didn't know. I didn't have the knowledge, I didn't have the experience to be able to meet her in that moment. But there is an ethical tension that is there in some ways. You know, some of the desires are. Are God given or God honoring? Some of the means are not. What do you see in navigating that ethical tension and what we call designer babies.
Dr. James L. Sherley: So at Salt, since our role is to educate the public so that they can have a full understanding of what's going on in these processes. There's sort of two main things we concern ourselves with. One is this question. In our efforts to do things that we clearly see have elements of good. The question is, is anyone being injured? When that good thing is going on, is anyone being injured? And as you've heard from doctor, Sandra Lee, the problem that we see happening in in vitro fertilization is there's a lot of injury going on. And that injury was more accepted when we have this rogue question of. Of when this life began. Because people could say, well, I'm not really sure that those embryos that I'm freezing, that I'm throwing away, even though they can turn into human beings. I'm not so sure if they're human beings now. The truth is they are. So we have to ask ourselves about this balance between having my own children and the injury that I do to my own children, the ones that were made by individual fertilization that are not going to be born into the world. I said the other thing that SALT wants to inform the public about is alternatives. Is there something else we could do that would achieve a similar good or an equal good? And we know what some of those are for parenting. We know adopting children. We know of that process. and so I think the important thing that salt's role is not to say you should or shouldn't do ivf, is to make sure the public is aware of all of what's going on in the ivf. We could make the IVF industry better. We could ask for greater efficiency. We could ask for not so many cycles. We could ask the clinics that do this to do a better job of giving patients, parents good information. That's the work that we can only do if we're all educated about what the process is. And so that's what we're trying to do at SALT to help with that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm so appreciative of organizations like you that do provide that information.
Dr. Sander Lee says there are many God honoring options for IVF
Dr. Sander Lee, what have you seen in the country or even in the world as a positive outcome of, getting education, like you're providing it Salt, like, okay, I learned this, and now we can modify the practice to be more. And God honoring to be more in line with respecting human life from fertilization all the way until the time of death. What do you see that's encouraging and, and how people are, are responding to this from a scientific lens?
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: Yeah, I think there are, when it comes to in vitro fertilization, just, I mean, there are, there are many God honoring choices that can be done. and maybe I'll end this by talking about my own personal experience with this, but just with. If somebody that's struggling with infertility alone, as I mentioned, IVF does not treat the root cause. So there is adoption, right? Embryo adoption is a beautiful option. Adoption itself, or even embryo adoption, if somebody desires to actually go through the process of pregnancy where those embryos that are abandoned to the freezer can actually be adopted to another couple. I also want to point out that there are, throughout the world, you know, when it comes to this complex issue of ivf, Germany is one example where they have a very, protective law, a very Embryo protective law in which it is against the law to destroy any human embryos. So if somebody is going to go through in vitro fertilization, it limits the ability to be able to freeze those embryos for storage. They want to protect that life and they believe that all embryos created in that cycle must be protected and they should try to transfer them, you know, in a healthy way to those women if they can. L.A. you know, has. We know that they consider a viable in vitro fertilized human, being a juridical person.
Dr. James L. Sherley: Right.
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: That has legal status. We know that Alabama, while IVF is not banned in Alabama, considered that these were legal children under the law. Right. And there's now. Because that's a whole nother legal battle battle. But I just want to point out that there are ways that things that can be done to kind of help to people in these moments, but then to also be protective of the human life and respect them. I mean these are human lives that have dignity and they should not be discarded or destroyed or disposed just treated like products like you said. And I think when it comes down to the ethics of, especially with the, the pre implantation genetic testing, I just want to point out like what, what Dr. Sherley was saying that I really think from a spiritual perspective we are creating then human beings in man's own image. If we don't accept them as, you know, if we go ahead and then they're created by our hands by actually, you know, doing that fertilization, but then we also pick some out, then we're saying okay, we're going to choose think in our own eyes are right that are good. and it just further treats them like products and not living human beings like they are. And there's this drive then to try to say that suffering and any imperfection, you know, is, is, Is somehow bad. It's like it's trying to achieve this perfect utopian. and it's just that, that ability as a parent to be able to accept the beautiful child that God has provided you with. And I think that's what's really miss all of this. It's really putting people into boxes and trying to create them in the way that we think is best and ignoring the fact, you know, I, I go back to ignoring the fact of what God said. you know, in.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm gonna hold you right there. I'm gonna hold you right there.
The loss of a child through abortion, miscarriage or stillbirth affects emotional health
Dr. Sander Lee, we are already at the, we are already at our second break. It is flying by. I do want to circle back to your personal experience and continue to look at this in the lens of what God said. And I think the question here for us is am I seeking God's wisdom, not just a fast cultural solution when you're facing these really difficult, deeply personal decisions. And I see this impacting the end of life care as well. We'll have more about that and gene editing when we come back.
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Abide by Aaron Williams and Dwell Songs: for my waking breath. Ah. For my daily bread. I depend on you. I depend on you. For the sun to rise. For my sleep at night. I depend on you. Yes, I depend on you. You're the way, the truth and the life You're the well it never runs dry. I'm the branch and you are the vine
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is abide by Aaron Williams and Dwell Songs And that's what we're talking about. Depending on the Lord for his wisdom in very difficult, difficult circumstances. I'm talking today to the founding member and members of Salt alliance, the science alliance for life and technology. It's called salt. We've linked the website in our show notes and this is a tremendous resource for families who are walking through issues of life and infertility. And we're talking, we've been, we're right in the middle of a really good conversation. And Dr. Sander Lee, I want to go back to you, you and talk a little bit about your personal experience. And before I do that, I'll say that in my experience clinically as a nurse, I see those issues of beginning of life and defining, starting to have medicine say what determines quality of life. Who, who deserves to go on and to have life and to have their human life Experience to live and to die. I see those, those issues coming in. End of life issues too. I see this in nursing care. And just recently I was talking to a physician who is in Canada and is part of the, the maid, the medical assisted end of life, basically, physician assisted suicide is what that is. And you see these same kind of arguments happening at the beginning of life and the end of life. These are very difficult situations for Christians to navigate. But Dr. Sander Lee, I want to go back to your personal, personal experience because it's easy to talk about these things in the theoretical and kind of debate the science and make it impersonal, but when you walk that road yourself, it changes your perspective. So I would love for you to share whatever you'd like to share of your personal experience with us.
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: Thank you for the opportunity. So I just want to say that I do personally understand the pain and suffering of infertility and the roller coaster of emotions and trying to conceive and and wondering is it God's will to have children or not? And when you see every, every month that you're not pregnant again, you know, really, and how far do you go then to try to have your own biological child? I will say that, you know, we were, my husband and I were swept in quickly to in vitro fertilization after experiencing any delay. And for part, and for us, because we did, we didn't get married until later in life. And so we were being told, oh, you have less than a 2% chance of getting pregnant. There's no other way for you to get pregn. This is the only way. And we believed them, but yet we were heartbroken. Like I remember when we were told this, we went in and we were just, you know, we were devastated and, but we believed them and we went through, and unfortunately we went through one IVF cycle and it failed. three human embryos were produced, but all three, and all three were immediately transferred because they didn't think that they were of high quality at all. And so they transferred them all. but unfortunately we didn't get pregnant. And in fact what happened is that and this could have contributed to maybe why the in vitro fertilization failed and we didn't get pregnant because I ended up getting really sick from the progesterone shots. They thought that, they think that I, they still to this day don't know exactly why I was considered a case study that they said, but I got this really rare form of pneumonia that put me in the hospital. and I was really, really sick. And so just going through that experience that. And, you know, they kept telling, saying, just go back to reproductive medicine. We can help you in other ways. And I can tell you that our journey was one and that nothing good ever came out of reproductive medicine. It wasn't, in all these artificial methods. It wasn't until I literally had to lay everything at the cross of Christ and had to surrender to his will and say, lord, I need to stop trying to do this in our way and on our time. And I am just begging and pleading for you to just show me your will and to help me to lay this down. If this is not our will, right? To look at your will, to look at other options. Adoption, or maybe just that we weren't supposed to have children, that God had other plans for us. Well, after. And, you know, and I turned 40 and I was like, that's it. I guess that's the answer. God doesn't want me to be pregnant. You know, I'm in my 40s now. Well, he laughed and laughed. And then two weeks later, we were pregnant. And now. And, naturally. And so we have a son. And it was. It was a huge miracle. It was. And for me, just going, my husband and I going through that journey, it was just a reminder that, you know, I know with. Everybody is on their own journey when it comes to this. And I. And that's why I think for salt, we don't want. We know that. And everybody's situation is unique. Everybody's situation, everybody's biology is unique. I guess from a Christian perspective, we would say just, you know, we want to help you understand, we want you to be informed first so that you understand the serious risks and problems with this technique. That even myself as a scientist, I was so swept away with wanting to have my own biological child and just listening to what they said that I didn't even stop and really think about this. And so we want you to be informed, but we also want you to just seek the will of Jesus and seek him above all else. That's. That's the most important thing.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, praise God for your miracle baby. That. That is a beautiful thing. And, and so many of the things that you said, it struck me, Dr. Sander Lee, even as you, they weren't determined to be of high quality. It just reduces human life to such a medical term.
There is a fragile trust right now between the public and healthcare system
And Dr. Sherley I want to come to you because I'm going to, say something that may be unpopular. You can feel free to push back if you like, but I I know. My experience of being in the healthcare field is that it's very intervention driven. It's very, look at all of these advances and you're trained to fix something. You're trained to, to try another medication, try another procedure, like push the boundaries of science so that you can create these miraculous things. And I, there is a very fragile trust right now between the public and between the, healthcare system. And I don't want people to be afraid of going to their healthcare providers. And by the way, this is where I always, always put in a disclaimer. It's so important for you to have a primary care provider you trust literally with your life, who will help you navigate, not just somebody that you barely, you barely know, so you don't trust their opinion. You really need now more than ever somebody who's going to walk through those decisions with you trying to navigate, you know, what you're finding on the Internet. Dr. Sherley what do you see as you know that, that fragile balance of trust and what should Christian families, what do they need to be informed about asking when they go to the healthcare system about their options?
Dr. James L. Sherley: Yeah. You know, you're not going to get any pushback from me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Okay, I'm relieved.
Dr. James L. Sherley: Good. Because biotechnology, technology is always racing forward and ethics is always trying to catch up. And you're going to hear me say it again. The way we catch up, the ethics, the way we enable, the public is with education, knowledge is where it is. And so one of the things with patients that they have to, I don't know if they have to learn or again be enforced is that they have a right to know what's happening to them. The medical system is a very top down kind of system. But for instance, as a physician, when I go into my physician for care, I am informed. I realize I have a right to ask him, about anything he's doing for me. Right. Or the same thing is true for everyone else. But I want to, I just want to highlight two recent developments in our federal government that really represent this process of why it's so important for the public to be informed. Because then the public can ask for explanations of why things are being done. The National Institutes of Health, which is our major federal organization that funds biomedical research in this country, has made two new developments that are really the result of education of the public. 1. In early this year, the NIH has instituted a new policy that it will no longer fund research that is done with cells from fetal tissue from abortions. This is a major change in the way our country is thinking about nascent human beings, beings, pre born human beings, that's from educating Congress people, is from educating government agencies. The newest one, as you know, one of the biggest problems I mentioned at the beginning is embryonic stem cell research, the use of babies, embryonic human beings to do research. And now at this moment, this NIH administration is reviewing the use of public funds for imprinting stem cell research. With the idea being that we now have, again because of technology, moving forward, we have alternatives that we didn't have, you know, 20 years ago, 10 years ago. so I think that the most important contribution we think we make is salt. And we are five scientists and two public policy experts. Because this is about educating the public to improve the policies around how we treat human beings in our country, whoever they are, whatever age they are.
How do you see financial motivators as a player in this space?
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Dr. Sherley I want to ask a question that, you know, is really, I think about it as a policy. I teach health policy myself and you know, it's not polite to ask about policy, but it's always about the money when you come down to public policy. And so this may be impolite to ask, but how do you see financial motivators as a player in this space?
Dr. James L. Sherley: It's a real problem, especially for in vitro fertilization, for a lot of the research we're talking about. And the only way to mitigate that is to, to be transparent about it, to require that people tell us what are your financial motivations in this? What are your financial gains in this? Right. Because then the public, is in a better position to make demands about what that process is. You know, so I think, that's, that's the key that we. These are clearly problematic issues that drive a lot of the new technology, tech. And we talk about design of babies. If you look at that, if you ask who's asking for design of babies, people who think they can make money by giving people the impression. And it is just an impression that they can choose who's going to be a better child.
Dr. Jessica Peck: These are just some of the realities that I think we need to be very clear eyed about and not, not afraid, not, you know, panicking, but just, but just wise. We need some wisdom about this because the average everyday person is not, you know, up to their eyeballs in the science. Like, like, you know, you two definitely are like, I am just trying to keep apprised of what is the research, what is being said, what is true. You know, where are the financial players here? It's really hard. Dr. Sander Lee let's go back to you. What do you hope that people. What. What do you hope that salt will be able to accomplish? What do you hope that people interacting with salt will come away with? What difference do you. In this organization?
Dr. Tara Sander Lee: what we see. Well, we're going to be publishing a lot of information. We already have published a lot of information as Dr. Sherley So, you know, we are scientists, we are policymakers. We have worked together, some of us, for decades. So we really hope to get information out so that people are equipped with the tools so that they know not only how the science works, like, for example, with in vitro fertilization or. But what are the points of controversy and what are the points of real ethical concern where a human being is either risked or harmed or where there's risk to you, right, As a person going through this. So that's one thing we hope to equip people with lots of information and also cutting edge, right? So we're keeping a really close eye on the news. We're keeping a really close. We're reading the literature, we're getting in, and we're digging deep to understand the science. I think one perfect example of this is when, Dr. Sherley mentioned. Mentioned the human fetal tissue and how this is, you know, such a problem. And we even saw how it affected, you know, while, you know, when it comes to vaccines, people are confused. Well, is it using fetal tissue or not? You know, what's going on? Well, even just a current therapy that people were getting all excited about, because now we can do these. We can do, like, surgeries on babies inside the womb that have some defects, like for, that have some fetal anomalies like spina bifida. It's remarkable, right? But then there's like a study that comes out and says, says, oh, we have a new trial called the cure trial, where we can use stem cells to treat these babies inside the womb from the placenta. They make it sound so great. People get all excited, and then we dig deep into the literature and we're like, you know what? They actually use cells from aborted babies. So it's like. So we're. We're there on the cutting edge. We're helping people understand the new science that's coming out the news. If there's a lot of infamous information, because a lot of people will give absolute false information just to try to push their agend agenda forward. and, you know, we saw that with abortive fetal tissue and vaccines because they, wow, they point back to. But we need fetal tissue for vaccines. It's like, no, that's absolutely not true. Like, first of all, you know, fetal tissue is not the same as, as the cell lines that are used for vaccines. And if we stopped fetal tissue today, it wouldn't stop anybody from getting treated.
Dr. Jessica Peck: So, you know, Dr. Sander Lee information there is so yes, there is so much information to be had. I hate that we have to leave it there because that just. I know I can see all these question marks above the heads of my listeners saying, wait a second, I want to go back to that. We will. We will continue to talk about these issues. And as the science continues to advance, our calling remains the same, to walk in truth, guided by God's word, with wisdom, humility and courage. And the future will bring more questions, but more opportunities to stand for the dignity of every human life. And we will continue to help you do that here, as we do. I pray, as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. We'll see you right here next time. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion. And every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR the views and
Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Jessica is joined by SALT (Science Alliance for Life and Technology) scientists Dr. Tara Sander Lee and Dr. James Sherley to discuss how biomedical progress does not require the destruction of human life.
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Sponsors:
Jessica is joined by SALT (Science Alliance for Life and Technology) scientists Dr. Tara Sander Lee and Dr. James Sherley to discuss how biomedical progress does not require the destruction of human life.
Chapters:
Sponsors:
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