Hello, and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And if you are like me, you're feeling the pressures of Maycember. This is a new term that I heard that's saying that May is a lot like December, where there are pressures. We have all of the school things, all of the graduations, we have weddings. We have just so much going on and there's so much busyness. And in all of that busyness, you may have missed the fact that May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month. And at the beginning of this year, I promised you that from time to time we would have what I'm calling Mental Health Mondays. We are just taking some time to focus on mental health. There is a mental health crisis among young people. There is an epidemic of loneliness. We are seeing sky rake skyrocketing rates. That's hard to say. Skyrocketing rates of anxiety and depression. These things are very real. And today we're joined by someone whose voice is really resonating deeply with a generation that is longing for honesty and hope and healing. I am so glad to welcome back Taylor Joy Murray. She's a therapist in training and recently graduated, so congratulations are in order, Taylor. We're going to want to hear all about that. She is an author and she is a host of the Faith and Feelings podcast. She has a passion for integrating faith and psychology, and she brings a fresh, compassionate perspective to mental and emotional health. And so we're so glad to have you back, Taylor. So glad to have your book Stop Saying I'm Fine. I read this when it came out. I'm continuing to read it, continuing to recommend it. It's such a great resource, for people who are struggling. So thanks so much for joining us.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Thank you for having me. It's so good to be here.
Stop Saying I'm Fine is about healing from mental health struggles
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, as I said, this is Mental Health Monday. We are going to get real about things that are weighing heavy on a lot of families. And you are such a great testament to the fact that healing is possible. It's not about perfection. It's just about healing. And where you talk in your book about how Gen Z can move from anxiety to authenticity and from pretending to presence. And your book is called Stop Saying I'm Fine Finding Stillness When Anxiety Screams. And so let's start at the beginning, maybe for people who missed the previous shows where you were on. Tell us about what led you to write this book and what the title means to you personally.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, when I think about Stop saying I'm fine, it really is just the outworking of my own story. and I think we can go into that more in a little bit, but specifically during high school. You know, I grew up in a Christian home. I was a committed follower of Jesus, committed to my faith. And during high school, I began to experience some pretty severe mental health struggles. And in a lot of Christian circles, those two realities can't coexist. And so I remember in high school, I just didn't have a lot of language for what I was experiencing. And when we don't have language for the pain that we carry, we can so often create other names for it. Names like not good enough, unworthy, broken, or wrong. And for me, I'm fine really became, Became the way that I masked the shame of those labels that I had internalized, about myself. And so I, from the time I was like four, I've always processed through writing. And so m. As I wrote stop saying I'm fine, those words actually became, I think, an invitation to more accurately name what I was experiencing, which I discovered was actually, one of the first steps towards healing.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That is so encouraging. I love the way that you said that. I'm writing it down as you said it. You said I'm a committed follower of Jesus, and I also had some mental health struggles. And you're so right. There is a, common misconception, but also a common struggle that we carry and a pressure that we put on ourselves that we think it's this if, then proposition, like, if I follow Jesus and if I do all of the right things, and if I read my Bible and go to church and, you know, I follow God in all of the ways I'm commanded to do, then I shouldn't have any mental health struggles. But sometimes that is there. And we are experts at, pretending we're fine. I mean, so often we say this. We are acculturated in saying this in American society. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm fine. When we're the farthest thing from, from fine.
Why do you think so many in Gen Z struggle with this and feel that pressure
Why do you think that so many in Gen Z struggle with this and feel that pressure to wear the mask you were describing?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I love this question. And I think there are so many, different factors that can kind of contribute into this pressure that we feel to wear the mask. But I think there are three ones that really come to mind. I think the first one is, our digital culture and social media. So Gen Z is the first generation to grow up fully immersed in social media. And I think a lot of these online spaces often reward curated perfection. And so so many of us can carry this pressure to perform by creating this false sense of normal, quote, unquote normal. I think another one is fear of rejection or judgment. Authenticity can feel so risky, and especially in communities and faith communities that stigmatize mental health or emotion, it can be really, really difficult. I've struggled with that fear of rejection and judgment so much, in my journey. And so I think the mask can become a kind of social armor. If I seem okay, maybe I'll be accepted. And I think that the third reason is, so many of us, and this is a huge part of my story as well, is that we are disconnected from ourselves. And sometimes we can pretend to be fine because we don't know how we really feel. And so this numbness or overthinking or distraction can disconnect us from our own inner world. And the mask becomes a way to keep functioning when our inner worlds feel too messy or confusing to share.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I cannot write notes fast enough as you're talking because this is such great insight, Taylor. let's go back and take those a little bit more slowly. This false sense of normal that you describe, I think that's the paradox because you said the word normal. So Gen Zers today feel like this is normal, this is our new norm. And, and yet it feels inherently false, it feels counterfeit, it feels hollow. How do you even begin to push out, push back on that, realizing that the reality is social media is here to say technology is here to stay, and yet you're dissatisfied with it. Where do you sit in the space with that and what do you do with that?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I think when I think about Gen Z and kind of even see our engagement in social media spaces like Instagram or TikTok or, Facebook, I've been seeing, I don't know if you can connect with this term, but this curated vulnerability, like we're this mask of authenticity, like we're trying to be authentic. And when we're trying to be authentic, that's not really authenticity. And what is it? I think it really is a bid for connection, it's a bid for belonging, for community. But trying to be authentic by sharing maybe certain parts of our stories is not true authenticity. And what I've really begun to you know, thinking about what actually is authentic authenticity, I think how I've come to kind of define it is authenticity is the courage to be yourself without distortion or disguise, even when it's uncomfortable or risky.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a great definition. And I do connect with what you're saying, because this curated authenticity, it's okay. I'm going to share my story. I'm going to be real, I'm going to be raw. But I also have a ring light and, you know, a studio setup that I'm going to use to be authentic, to share that. And it's just this really strange sort of tension that I think we're trying to navigate. And Taylor, you and I have talked about this before. It's so hard as parents to advise in this because we. This is a completely foreign world to us. We don't understand it. And I think, as parents, as grandparents, we tend to have this kind of condescending, dismissive approach to all of that. Just like. Well, we oversimplify it. We're like, just stop. Because we don't know where even to start. I mean, we know how to teach our kids how to drive a car because we learned how to drive a car. But it would be like if we had never, ever driven a car and one showed up in the driveway. And our kids are learning, but we've never driven one. It's just really hard. And we have this kind of cautious apathy that we just kind of have an uneasy truce, hoping everything will go okay. Right. But it won't.
Taylor talks about wearing social armor during mental health struggles
And so that leads to the second point where you talked about fear, this social armor that you wear. Talk more about that and tell us what it's like to live that experience.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I remember. I think it was probably during the most, in high school, when my mental health struggles were at the. Probably the most severe point. I remember literally wearing the words, I'm fine. Like an armor. Like, someone would ask me, are you okay? I'm fine. Was just like. I would just say it all day long every day. And there is so much shame connected to the mental. The struggles that I was experiencing that I'm fine, just began. Became a way to almost create distance between other people and myself. And, like, the armor really began. It became, what I was kind of hoping would protect me, became the thing that really disconnected me from other people and became the source of so much shame.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I really admire you for sharing that because I know as you're talking, Taylor, there are so many who relate, who think, yes, that is the Way that I feel. There's so much fear of how you'll be perceived as you're faith not strong enough or your emotions not strong enough. As parents we think, did we not parent well enough that we raised an emotionally healthy child? And there's so much shame and stigma with that. But when we look at emotions in the Bible, emotions are things to be named and claimed. And when we look at the range of emotions that Jesus felt, I mean he was stressed to the point of sweating blood, he wept when Lazarus died, he overturned tables in the temple when he was angry, he was overwhelmed and needed to get away from the crowds. I mean we see all of those emotions and yet somehow we feel this pressure to have this mask, this social armor, this prism of Christian perfection, really faith based perfection. And that leads to the third point where you talk about being disconnected from ourselves. Can you talk about the pressure to disconnect from our, the disconnect between our digital lives, but also our internal emotional worlds? It's like these are two, two completely different worlds running on parallel tracks.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yes. Yeah. I think one of the beliefs that, so I grew up as a missionary kid, and one of the beliefs that I internalized growing up was that demonstrating holiness is demonstrating happiness. So I began to learn to disconnect from any emotion that wasn't happy. And so when I began to experience anxiety in high school, I really didn't know what anxiety felt like. And so I didn't even know. I didn't have language for this is what anxiety feels like in my body because it wasn't talked a lot about in the Christian circles that I was in. So I began to learn to disconnect from so many different emotions that were distressing or more difficult to feel because I thought that they were bad or something that I shouldn't be feeling. And so when I began to actually go into scripture and to see the range of emotions that Jesus felt, it felt like an invitation to reconnect to so many of the emotions that I had distanced myself from because of that, because I was trying to be a quote unquote good Christian. But I think there is such a disconnect between our digital lives and these, this internal emotional world. and I think when I think about digital platforms, I see this tendency, especially in Gen Z, to present this version of ourselves that is edited and filtered. But the truth is internally humans are complex. We're contradictory, we're messy. And I think that gap or that disconnection can create this emotional dissonance and the sense that we have to hide our real selves.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: We absolutely do. And we hide those behind those curated social media feeds. And you know, Taylor, that's what it all comes back to. We're talking about image crafting and we feel this pressure, I think, through social media to craft for ourselves an image of how we want the world to see us. But the truth is, Taylor, no image that we could ever craft from our human brain is going to be as beautiful as the image that God created us in. That's his image. We are created in the image of God. And that is the message that we need to keep giving Gen Z. And when we come back, Taylor, I want to hear more about your story. There is one particular moment, a moment that happened behind a locked bathroom stall that I can tell you I've witnessed similar moments from so many people. And we will find talk about that. But we will also give you some hope for the faith that holds, us. Don't go away. We'll be back with more from Taylor Joy Murray Stop saying I'm fine Finding Stillness When Anxiety Screams.
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>> That's The Thing About Praise by Benjamin William Hastings and B: When the rain you want is a flood instead and the roses bloom but they're not quite red When I reach the edge of my bravery I'll still be singing at the banks of an unparted sea Sometimes the only way through, it is a hallelujah Sometimes the only thing to do is just to hand it to ya and though my troubles shake me I, know they will never move ya Sometimes the only way through it is a hallelujah.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That's The Thing About Praise by Benjamin William Hastings and Blessing Offor. And sometimes it does feel like the only way through it is a hallelujah.
May is mental health awareness month, and we're talking to Taylor Joy Murray
We're talking about mental health today on Mental Health Monday. May is mental health awareness month, and we're talking to Taylor Joy Murray. I had the privilege of meeting Taylor virtually some time ago, and, she's written a book called Stop saying I'm Fine Finding Stillness when anxiety Screams. And it is such an authentic reflection of a Gen Z struggle in this world that is constantly on with anxiety and depression and epidemic levels. And I think for parents, especially of young girls who are struggling with this, teen girls, and this book is written gently enough that it would be very helpful to see that they are not alone in their struggles. We are seeing, rising levels of anxiety and depression especially. And in this book, instead of offering quick fixes or spiritual bypasses, Taylor really points us towards something deeper. We're talking about stillness and honesty and the presence of God even in the middle of the message. And she is calling some truth on the lies that we le live, that we live about anxiety that we believe. And she has been sharing her story and even not even disconnecting herself from emotions that weren't happy. And sometimes I think kids feel pressured to do this because they want to please their parents. They want to give them that immediate feedback loop that I'm fine, you're fine, everyone's fine when they're not fine. And as parents especially, we need to make sure that it's okay for our kids to not be okay. We need to give them that grace and space to not be okay. It's not necessarily a reflection on parenting. It's just the middle of being human is messy m as Taylor has been talking about. So, Taylor, one of the stories that you have shared of your own anxiety just leaving you paralyzed is a moment that happened behind a locked bathroom stall. And I can tell you, as just a mom, as a worker in a church, as a pediatric nurse practitioner, I can't tell you how many people I've met in crisis locked behind that bathroom stall. You are not alone. And if that is you and Taylor, I would love for you to share your story and how God met you there.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I remember. I think it was probably my sophomore year of high school. I remember I started struggling with anxiety and, disordered eating that quickly, trend or increase in severity to an eating disorder. And I remember graduating from high school and I was, getting ready to go to college, but, but before I went to college, I went to a gap year program, a Bible college, and Friedrichshafen, Germany. And you know, I remember packing and getting ready to go to Germany and hoping that, you know, and it sounds funny now talking about it, but my mindset was really hoping that a change of scenery would, Would take me away from these, this, these really deep struggles of anxiety and this disordered eating that I'd been experiencing for the last several years. And I remember getting to Germany and my mental health really spiraled really quickly. And it got to a point where one of the directors at the school, confronted me about, what she saw and the mental health struggle she was seeing. So we ended up going to the hospital that day. And I remember coming back to the school. No one knew about what had just happened. And I remember, just needing to be alone. And so I went upstairs to the only bathroom, stall with the full door and the lock. And I remember being in a fetal position on the bathroom floor for over an hour. And as I remember just sitting, sitting there, just spiraling in anxiety and shame and just envisioning God so distant from me. And in that moment, I, I think I was confronted with the reality of what was happening in my body and what was happening, in my mind. And in that moment I began a very, very long journey of healing.
Taylor, your mom provided a pivotal moment in your recovery with an email
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, I want to talk more about that physical reaction that you had. But before we do that, I know from your story, from talking with you before and reading your book, Taylor, that your mom really provided a pivotal moment in your recovery by the response that she showed you when you disclose these struggles that you were having. And I think that would be really encouraging for other parents to hear. Can. So can you share how you shared with her and how she responded?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I remember. I don't know if it was that night or the following night. the directors of the school had asked me to tell my parents about what was going on. I hadn't told them anything about, what had happened. And so I remember it was late at night, maybe 11:11, 11:30, and everyone was in bed and I was sitting in the hallway like crisscross applesauce, like on the, on the ground. And I had my laptop out and with, my parents were in a different country and I was feeling so much shame and I didn't really want to get on the phone. And so I remember pulling out my laptop and opening up my email, opening up my email and just typing to my mom what was going on. And I remember going up to the subject line, having no idea what to say in the subject line for an email like this. And so I wrote prayer request and sent the email. And then I went to bed. And the next morning, I remember opening up my email and I don't really even remember the exact words that she said to me, but it felt like she was reaching through the screen and taking up the space next to me and promising to shoulder whatever was going to come with me. And I remember feeling so much like she was literally, her presence was beside me. And that moment was what really helped me move forward and, go into treatment a few weeks later.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I can't imagine what your mom felt, Taylor, when she got that, knowing that you were half a world away. And I just can only imagine, you know, receiving an email like that and thinking all of the things that you could think. The things that you could think, like, what's wrong? Why did this happen? And was I not a good enough mom? And, you know, what's, what else is going on that I don't know about? I could be angry, I could be scared, I could be all of those things. But for her to put those aside and to respond first with empathy and support is just absolutely beautiful. And I'm so grateful. I know that your mom walks very closely with the Lord, and I'm sure that the Holy Spirit guided her in responding to you and just hearing from your side, I think that's so important to hear what a pivotal moment that was and what a difference that made for you. Because for so many, that cold tile moment that you were describing, it's not just a metaphor. I, mean, that's daily reality. I know, Taylor, there are people who are listening who think, yeah, my cheek is on the bathroom floor a lot more than I would like for it to be, as I'm just trying to cope with this. So help us understand mental health struggles in a spiritual and emotional context.
Taylor: What does anxiety actually feel like in your body and your mind
So what does anxiety actually feel like in your body and your mind? You described how you didn't have language, but that you had all these feelings, you didn't know what it was. What does it actually feel like? Can you describe it for us?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I love this question, because anxiety isn't just a thought. And I think so often we can, can think of anxiety as just like a battle in the mind, and it truly is a battle in our minds, but it's, it's a full body experience. And so in our mind, it can feel like racing thoughts, overthinking, a sense of dread that something wrong is going to happen even if we don't know what that is. We can replay conversations, we can imagine worst case scenarios or we can feel, paralyzed by decision making in our bodies. It can show up like tightness in the chest, shallow breathing, a lump in our throat, restlessness, nausea, fatigue, trembling. Anxiety is really, and it's, it's beautiful how God created our bodies in this way because anxiety is really our body's alarm system. It's our nervous system kind of going off and, and it's like our body's natural alarm system. And so, the, the hard thing is when we minimize anxiety, it doesn't go away. Right? It just gets louder. Just like any other alarm system, like on a house. Like if a smoke detector starts going off, it' it's going to get louder and louder until we get curious about what might be causing it. So I think, it's so important when we feel anxiety to not minimize the feeling, but to get really curious about why we're feeling that way. Because anxiety is often giving us a lot of really good data about what's happening internally or externally.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: That's a great way to put it. It is a full body experience and it can feel really scary and it's so physical. Taylor, I know you know this, you've lived this, that sometimes people really can be afraid because they think, surely this is not what I've learned is anxiety. Because as you described, you think that's just in your mind. On the same, at the same time, there are, a lot of kids who experience just general anxiousness, feelings of anxiety, feelings of sadness. And it can be really hard. I find that parents especially, they have a really hard time thinking, okay, what is normal on the human continuum of emotion? Like what's normal on this spectrum of human experience? And what is clinical? Where should we be concerned? How do you help parents and mentors and faith leaders navigate that difference? Because there is an important difference. We can't over clinicalize, over medicalize every human emotion, but we can't ignore those alarm bells that are going off.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, yeah. When I think about the difference between sadness and what would be considered clinical depression, you know, I think about sadness as a normal human emotion. It comes and goes and it's usually in response to something specific, like a specific change, a disappointment or a loss. It ebbs and flows. Right. But clinical depression is deeper and more persistent and it often doesn't have a Clear cause. So one way to recognize the difference between the two is duration and intensity. So if someone is feeling low almost every day for more than two weeks, especially if they've lost interest in things they used to enjoy, they're withdrawing from relationships, struggling to sleep or eat, or maybe expressing feelings of worthlessness, those are often signs of clinical depression. another key difference is sadness still allows for moments of joy. Right. but with depression, even good things can feel flat or meaningless. And so, for parents or mentors or faith leaders, I think so much of the invitation, I think even when trying to discern the differences between clinical depression and sadness is the invitation is to not fix, but to notice, to pay attention to patterns, ask questions, and encourage professional support. I think so many of us can feel really uncomfortable because we don't know what to say or how to engage. And it can be really, uncomfortable or overwhelming to know how to help or what to do. But, when I think about compassion, compassion doesn't require expertise. Right. It requires presence. And if we can be present with those who are. Who we are really concerned about, I think that's the most important thing that we can do.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes. and early intervention is so important, recognizing those signs early, because the longer that you wait, the more your body is going to respond, the more severe it is, the more difficult it can be to treat. But it's so hard to get over that first hurdle.
You shared about someone who cared enough about you to confront you
And you talk about, you know, people feeling hesitant to say something, but you shared earlier about someone who cared enough about you to confront you. You actually used the word confront. Talk to us more. Looking back at that retrospectively, do you think that your path would have been the same if she hadn't had the courage to say something to you about what she had been noticing and what she had been seeing? How do you think that changed your trajectory? And what lessons can we learn about that, about showing compassion, but also speaking up when we have concern?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I think. I think that intervention from the director at my school changed everything. I was so sick to the point that I didn't realize how sick I actually was. And so having someone to bring awareness to what was happening and what she was seeing, she was so compassionate. She, to the best of her ability, she tried to help, and. And it really changed. I mean, I remember being so sick. I honestly, I don't know if I would be here today if not for that intervention.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Wow.
>> Taylor Joy Murray: And the fact that she was willing to, step into the discomfort and not knowing exactly how to navigate that moment, but doing it anyway. I mean change the trajectory, I think of my life.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Wow.
Taylor Joy Murray writes about eating disorders and how to heal from them
Well, when we come back from our next break, Taylor, I want to talk a little bit more specifically about eating disorders. But what would you say right now to someone who's listening, who thinks I'm m struggling. I want to have that healing journey that you are describing. I should be over this by now. But they're just still feel stuck. What would you say to them as a word of encouragement?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I would say I have said that so many times. I have so much compassion to the person who might be thinking that right now. but I would just invite you into so much gentleness towards yourself because healing doesn't have a timeline and it can be a really slow journey. I think the question that we can ask that has been helpful for me is what is needed right now for the journey?
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Yes. And these are, these are really big journeys that are taken in small steps and you have to give yourself grace and space for the journey. I think in a world where we live in such instant gratification, where we can get anything we want, how we want it, when we want it, we feel the same way about mental health that God didn't assign us like that. Well, we'll have more with Taylor Joy Murray when we come back. And she's the author of Stop saying I'm Fine Finding Stillness When Anxiety Screams. If you have a child and Gen Z generation, a teenager teenager who's struggling, especially a teen daughter, they really might find encouragement in Taylor's journey and in the hope that she's found in healing. When we come back, we'll talk more and give you some more practical tools and encouragement. We'll see you on the other side of this break.
The American Family Association's mission is to strengthen the moral foundations of our culture
>> Ed Vitagliano: The American Family Association's mission is to inform, equip and activate individuals to strengthen the moral foundations of our culture. We also support the church. Our goal is to be a leading organization in biblical worldview training for cultural transformation. AFA aims to evangelize the lost and disciple the believer. We aim to strengthen biblical marriages and equip parents to raise godly children. Thank you for standing with the American Family Association. When you hear this. This is American Family News. You know, what follows is the truth. Your news from a Christian perspective. Hundreds of teachers are going to have to walk into that school building and they are forced to swallow political ideology that in many cases violates their very faith and conscience. If you miss it at the top of the hour, American Family News podcasts are available at afn.net and sign up for our daily news brief at afn.net.
>> Jesus Does by We The Kingdom: Who holds the orphan, comforts the widow, cries for injustice, feels every sorrow, carries the pain of his children? Jesus does. So we sing praise to the Father who gave us the Son, praise to the Spirit who's livin' in us When I was a sinner, he saved me from who I was. 'Cause That's what Jesus does.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That's Jesus Does by We The Kingdom. And that is what Jesus does. And today on this Mental Health Monday, if you are struggling with mental health problems with challenges, know that Jesus knows, He sees, he cares, and there is hope for healing for you. We are talking today to Taylor Joy Murray. She's the author of Stop saying I'm Fine. Finding stillness with anxiety screams. This is for anyone. For the young adult who feels trapped inside their anxiety, for the parent or caregiver who aches to understand, for the wounded heart who can't seem to move on, or for the weary one who has tried and failed a thousand other ways. She shares her journey and a beautiful reminder that healing isn't about fixing everything, it's about becoming whole.
Taylor, what did Jesus mean when he promised me full life
And so, Taylor, you've shared such powerful wisdom and you, we've been talking about your moment of crisis, and you asked a powerful question in that moment. You said, what did Jesus mean when he promised me full life? What kind of answer have you found to that question?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, it's been such a, ah, journey, especially since I wrote that question three, four years ago and continuing to sit with that question and sitting, with God. And what does full life actually mean? What does this whole life look like that you've promised? And I think what I'm learning is that, you know, I used to think that full life was, a specific destination or full life was maybe the absence of pain or the absence of suffering. But I'm learning that full life really isn't contingent on what's happening around me or in me. Full life is offered to us because Jesus promised his presence would always be with us. His face is always turned towards us, always attentive and always connected. And, full life is offered to us because, and when we learn what it looks like and we can receive this whole life when we learn what it looks like, that we are seen, soothed, safe and secure in his attentive gaze and learning what it looks like to live in that gaze. So for me, think that the invitation to full life has looked like and looks like learning what it means to be fully present with a God who is always present with me where I don't have to hide or pretend or numb. And I'm learning, that this full life that Jesus offers us is a life where joy and pain can coexist, they can exist together, and where I can bring my whole self, even all the messy, questioning, anxious parts of me m into relationship with God.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I think people listening think, I want what you have, Taylor. I want that full life. I want that joy, that peace, that wholeness, that healing. But I think there are a lot of gen zers who really feel disconnected from their faith communities. How would you encourage them to make spirituality a part of their healing? Because I think so often they, they really want to extract that part of themselves and say, I want to heal every of, my emotional health, my mental health, physical health. I'm about that. But spiritual health is so integral. And so what encouragement would you give to that gen zer who feels really disconnected from the faith you just so beautifully described?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I think, you know, when I think about my. My spiritual journey, I. I think I've seen how so much spirituality, maybe even religiosity today can be tied to performance. And I have, I'm. I'm unlearning a lot of performance when it comes to spirituality and in my own faith. And, and I think, you know, when I look at all the interactions that, that Jesus had in the gospels, I see these interactions that Jesus had with individuals in their sickness and woundedness and shame. And. And I see Jesus engaging with them with kindness, with dignity, with presence. He was curious. He asked questions. And I think one of the things I'm learning about, when it comes to my faith is it's not about performance. It's not about pretending like I'm fine. And like, like I said before, like the belief that I had internalized was, growing up was that demonstrating holiness is demonstrating happiness. And so it was always my faith was often a performance that felt really disconnected from my internal world. But I think it's been this process over the years of healing and of learning to position myself, to actually encounter God in these. In my own places of woundedness and pain and not disconnecting my faith from. From my emotional health or mental health struggles.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I think there's a lot of parents, a lot of caregivers, teachers, other people who interact with kids who maybe just haven't experienced any mental health struggles and they don't understand what their child is going through. You have shared part of your journey and having disordered eating. And there's a lot of parents who just think, I can't understand this, like, why can't you just stop? Why can't you just turn it off? How can they show up with compassion like you described your mom doing?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I think eating disorder specifically, can often be really misunderstood. and I think what's really important to understand about eating disorders is that it's not. It's. It's called an eating disorder, but it's really not about food or even really body image. It's about pain. It's about, oftentimes trauma. It's about, a way that we're trying to cope with something that feels overwhelming. You know, I've even sat with clients over the last couple of days who have just vocalized so much shame over eating disorders often being associated with image or vanity. And I've heard clients tell me like two, three days ago, like, it's so much deeper than that for me. And so I think we can learn, to engage, in conversations about eating disorders with more compassion when we can kind of see this bigger picture that eating disorders are not just about food. They're about pain and being able to, sit with the person who's struggling and learning to hold space and just holding space, for whatever comes up in conversation and listening without having to fix. I think presence is such an important word. If we can be present with, the pain that that person's experiencing. I mean, that's been so transformative for me.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I think that most people don't know that eating disorders are actually the most deadly mental health disorder. And some of the behaviors associated with disordered eating, like calorie restriction, I mean, these are things that are celebrated in society. And so it can be hard to have early intervention and to recognize, like, this is a problem. Because a lot of people who struggle with eating disorders are high achievers. They're highly intelligent. They have the image of, I've got this under control, I've perfected wearing the mask, everything's fine, and you kind of start to doubt yourself. And so I think that's really important for parents to know that if your child is experiencing any signs of anxiety, depression, eating disorder, just like Taylor described earlier, that are rising to the level of. They're impacting your everyday life. There are, duration, it's lasting a long time. It's the free, the intensity, it's severe. And you're having to modify your daily activities. That's a sign that you really need to go to your primary care provider at a minimum, for a start. For some health, there also is a national hotline. You can call for mental health. That's 988. It's kind of like 911 for physical emergencies but 988 for mental health, emergencies. And that that hotline is available 247 and I have it in my phone. And Taylor, you know, looking back at so far your journey, you know we've covered this and in an hour or so but we're talking about years of healing for you. And I want you to go back to that bathroom floor to that 18 year old that was halfway across the world, scared, afraid, alone. And what would you say to yourself today? What would you say to that girl who was there on the bathroom floor?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I love this question so much and just thinking about what I would say to 18 year old me, you know, I think she knew cognitively that she wasn't alone. She knew cognitively that everything was going to be okay. I don't think she believed those things. but I think what I would, I think what I would, how I would be with 18 year old would be is that I would want to get down on the bathroom floor with her and I think if she would let me I would cry with her and I think that's what I would do to 18 year old me.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: I think that's so important to show yourself empathy and compassion and look at where you were and to celebrate where you've come. And so often we take these mental health struggles on as a personal weakness or something like that when it really is just a complex interaction of genes and environment and, and other influences that are there other factors, some that we can control and some that we can't control. And so for that young person listening today who just feels stuck, they feel like I'm still there on the bathroom floor. What is the first thing that you would tell them today to move toward healing? Taylor?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I think mental health struggles are so often they, they get worse in isolation and it can be this like cycle of feeling shame and not wanting to tell anyone and then it gets worse and then you feel more shame so you don't want to tell anyone. And so I think what I would tell that person is talk to someone that you trust. It doesn't matter if it comes out messy, if it just, just talk to someone that you trust and tell them what's going on. And yeah, I think that's what I would say.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Yeah. And we know that that often doesn't happen. And so just yes, creating those open doors is so very important and you're learning so much as a clinician yourself and looking at things like journaling, like prayer, like breath work and other therapy that intersects our faith lives. There's a lot of people who are afraid of therapy and think, think, well how could this be compatible with my faith? Or they're just going to try to give me a prescription. How can you decrease some of the stigma and mystery that's associated with that? And speak as someone who clearly loves Jesus, who clearly walks with the Lord, how therapy is congruent with your faith journey?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: Yeah, I love this question. I think, I, I'm in therapy right now. I every Wednesday at 1, you know, I go see my therapist and I really see it as another form of discipleship. You know, all of these different things that we can do, whether it's journaling or prayer or breath work or therapy, it's all formational. Right. And if we're being formed into the image of Christ, then all of these things can, can contribute to the formation of our bodies, minds and souls towards Christ likeness. And so I think for me it's been, it's kind of removing this sacred secular dividend that like therapy and all the, there's so many different ways that we can pursue healing. And therapy in particular can really move us towards wholeness and transformation and healing in Christ, when we view it as another means of discipleship and healing in that way.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: And you can also go to the American association of Christian Counselors that their website is aacc.net and you can look for a counselor that might be a good starting place to see, to find someone who has who shares your biblical worldview and that can be a starting place. But just like Taylor said, talk to somebody you trust, share with someone what is going on, be willing to take a healing journey because we are not going to have healing by hiding. Healing doesn't happen in hiding. And you know, especially for Gen Z Taylor there is. We tend to, Gen Z tends to self medicate and now other generations are adopting this by numbing out, by just scrolling, by disconnecting. But there's a difference between that and true stillness. So what last encouragement that can you give us to learn to be with ourselves in the choir?
>> Taylor Joy Murray: It. Yeah, I love this question. I think it's something I'm learning right now and it takes a lot of practice and, and I think, you know, when I think about the struggle to be with ourselves in quiet, I think about the inability to be with really hard emotions because so often with what comes up in quiet is emotions that feel really scary or hard to feel. And so one of the things I'm learning about healing is that healing isn't eliminating distressing emotions, but transforming our relationship to distressing emotions. And the more that we can strengthen and enlarge our emotional capacity, the more capacity we have to be present with ourselves in quiet. I'm learning what it looks like to befriend scary emotions, befriend distressing emotions, because when we can enlarge our capacity to feel a full range of emotions, then we have so much more capacity to be with ourselves.
>> Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Taylor, thank you so much. It's always a joy, and no pun intended, it's always a joy to talk with. Taylor Joy Murray. I just love her story, her testimony, her work. Her book is Stop Saying I'm Fine Finding stillness when anxiety screams. And I hope that you will find her online and listen to her podcast, Faith and Feelings. And listen wherever you are in your mental health journey, I pray that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. And I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
>> Jeff Chamblee: The views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
