Dr. Jessica Peck: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But they can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside them. One ultrasound is just $28. To donate, dial pound 250 and say the keyword BABY or visit preborn.com/AFR hello and welcome to the Doctor Nursemama Show Prescribing Hope for Healthy Families here on American Family Radio.

 : Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, my favorite part of the afternoon, getting to spend time with you prescribing Hope for Healthy Families. And if you've been listening all throughout November, I have been very good. I have not told you to put up your tree. You can put up your tree whenever you want to. You can turn on the Christmas music whenever you want to. But one thing I am asking you to do is to participate in Operation Christmas Child and to pack a shoebox to send a gift to a child somewhere in the world. I have already packed my shoeboxes. I always pack one for each one of my kids to just reflect what I'm, preparing at home to send out into the world. And this year I even did a bonus and it was, it was that much fun. My husband thought, what are you saying? That we need another child? We can always have another child. I'm always going to be okay with that. But, but I am asking you to please participate in Operation Christmas Child. You can go to samaritan's purse.org occ now next week we'll have a special guest from Operation Christmas Child to share some information and testimony about that. Super exciting. Always one of my favorite, favorite shows of the year, just to hear of the miracles that God is doing all over the world through a simple shoebox. So please prayerfully consider participating in that. It would make a great family project, a great project for your life group, great project for your church. You might, your church might be participating, but please check that out. And today we are also talking about preparing our hearts for the holidays because during the holidays we are going to see a lot of family, probably most of us, you may see some friends that you haven't seen in a while. And we are living in an age of unprecedented connection, but we are connected digitally and disconnected relationally and AI artificial intelligence, or al as My mother in law likes to say has entered nearly every corner of our lives. And it promises things that are not true. Honestly. It promises I'm going to make your life easier, I'm going to make task faster, I'm going to make it more efficient. And now it's continuing to cross boundaries. And I'm very concerned about this because now it's not just promising ease, quickness, efficiency, it's promising companionship. And it's saying we can make the world less lonely. And I use we kind of not sure what to say because it's a computer, it's a robot. But I've been talking a lot about AI companions and they are literally marketed as friends, as therapists, even soul mates. I have seen videos of men with VR goggles who have AI girlfriends who walk around the house thinking that they are there. And these AI companions, they are promising to listen without judgment, to never argue, to always please.

Dr. Jessica Peck: But here's the problem.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Those relationships are designed for, for our satisfaction, not our sanctification. They're built to please us, not to make us more like Christ. God's design for relationship is entirely different. We were made in his image, Imago dei, created for community. We were created to reflect God's nature through human characteristics like love and humility and compassion. And those emotions are not real on AI. They are only mental mimicked. And true relationship refines us, it stretches us, it draws us closer to God and to each other. Now my guest today knows that truth through both the lens of heartache and redemption. I'm talking today to Jim Putman. He's a pastor of Real Life Ministries in Post Falls, Idaho. And he was once a prodigal who ran away from his faith and from every meaningful relationship. And his book, the Power of Together reminds us that the gospel has always been relational and that discipleship and healing and purpose are found only in authentic God centered community. And as we read about the rise of people reading their Bible, people with an interest in faith, one of my concerns is being discipled by content creators. Now there are great content creators who are producing some information that is really beneficial, that is instructive, that's encouraging, but that is really different. And it should never replace walking in real relationship, being discipled by someone and having those real human relationships, these are important in a world that's increasingly content with artificial ones. So Jim, welcome, we are so glad to have you all the way from Idaho. Thank you for joining us.

Jim Putman: Well, it's my privilege. And Jessica, I think you should write a book because Everything you just said, I, I absolutely agree with. And you probably said it better than I did in my book. So in, in that book. So, yeah, that was great. Hey, I just want to say one thing. We're really involved in Operation, Christmas Child here. Thousands of boxes, and we actually get to work with them and go over there and partner with them and train the churches on how to disciple people when the kids come, their parents get connected and how those churches disciple people to spiritual maturity and So Compassion. Excuse me, Operation Christmas Child. In this case, we work with Compassion too, but amazing work they're doing. What great doors and what a great way to disciple your kids on other centeredness in your home.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Jim, we're already getting along like peas and carrots. Yes, I actually have. I've adopted children through Compassion International as well. And you know, the heart even for all of that is through relationship. Even when I've interviewed people that have given, gotten gifts from Operation Christmas Child or children who have been adopted from Compassion International, there is a hunger in the human heart for relationship and, and your own personal story that you have shared really is like a prodigal son journey. One of brokenness, one of repentedness, repentance. But ultimately, Jim, restoration through relationship.

You grew up in a pastor's home and eventually left the church

Can we just start there with your personal story? And thank you so much for sharing that with us because I think so many people are going to relate to what you've been through.

Jim Putman: Well, you know, I grew up in a, in a pastor's home. And and so, you know, my dad was, my dad got saved late, wasn't really discipled, went to Bible college, decided going to ministry. and so he, his version of a pastor's role was really about taking care of a lot of people and ministering to them and not really understanding the balance between family and church. And as time went on, he grew. But, you know, he and my mom both sort of started with not saying no to the church, which then meant you were saying no to your own family. And so I resented the church. I resented the people in the church. The pastor's role was sort of to take, you know, fix everybody's tragedy, but, but nobody, really had time for the really deep stuff until there was a problem. So there wasn't a lot of preventative sort of relationships and things that keep you, walking with Jesus and strengthen you and support. Discipleship was really about content and transfer of information and, and a place you go, a box you check and. And so anyway, the form of Christianity That I got involved in or was involved in was really a difficult, thing, for me and my family. And so eventually I sort of left the church, and I blamed God for the church because it must be his idea to run it like this, and this isn't working, and so it's God's fault. And then maybe there isn't a God at all. And. And as my father and mother grew and they started to realize where they had sort of gotten off track, they started to make changes. And so when I went out into the world, I had no relational ropes that kept me to the church. I had, you know, a lot of questions, that were being answered by the secular world. And I sort of bought into that. And I actually had better friendships in the secular world than I had in the church. And, so it got to the point where I didn't believe in God. And I did addiction issues and all kinds of issues and destroyed myself and others. And. And it was, my father, the pastor, who reached out to me in relationship. The one that I had sort of rebuffed and had no time for was the one who was still standing when, I had no one left because I. I lived for myself and I was dangerous to everybody else. And he continued to pursue me. And it was through that relationship that I was willing to hear what he had to say about God, about if there was a God, about which God about. I don't remember a sermon he really ever preached. I remember what happened in relationship. And so once I kind of sort of came to, believe in God. And I said, okay, I believe in God, but I don't believe in the church. I'm not having anything to do with that. And it was in relationship that he sort of took me as a spiritual infant, born again infant now. And he helped spiritually parent me through relationship all the way to God's version of the church's family. And this is what it's supposed to look like. And then now you're not just saved. It's in family that you find support. It's in family that you find, wise counsel. It's in family that you're educated, that you learn new things and then know how to actually practice those in real life. It's in relationship. And. And you know what he really did is he said, listen, listen. When Jesus said, go make disciples, he didn't mean, go do it any way you want. He meant, go do it the way I did it. And so I, He really helped me go, okay, here's how disciples are made in relationship. And somewhere along the line, again, discipleship became something you learned in a classroom from a talking head. And people didn't really have time for relationships. And so, and then pastors think, well, I got to fit everything into an hour. You know, I've got to, I've got to kind of shrink down what's expected to, what people are willing to do. Rather than calling people to follow Jesus and change their life, they were sort of trying to teach people how to fit Jesus into their co. Their existing life. And so anyway, I, I went on this long journey to say, okay, no, God. Okay, God. Which God? Oh, it's Jesus. Okay, I'll take Jesus. but not the church. Okay, I'll be in the church, but I'll never be a pastor. And, but it's in relationship that all that happened. And then when you get into the world and you find out most people, they, they've sort of redefined discipleship to mean education. And you, can know all mysteries and if you, you can speak in the tongues of angels of a man, but if you have not loved, if you don't have relationship, it's nothing. It doesn't mean anything. Jesus said all the law and the prophet saying on two commands, love God, love others. It's all about relationship. Some people say, it's me and Jesus. It's me and God. I don't need people. Well, God didn't think God was enough. In the garden, he said, it's not good for man to be alone. But man wasn't alone. He was with God. and so God's really saying, I made you for relationship with me, but also others. You need people, and so sin separates you from God. And then when that happens, that domino falls. And now it separates you from others. And part of the.

Jim Putman: We've sort of allowed Christianity to be redefined

God's plan was to restore relationship with himself. But then as you walk in the light, as he is in the light now, you have fellowship with one another, deep koinonia relationship with one another. And so we've sort of allowed Christianity to be redefined. And when we take a recipe of something and we redefine it, you know, when it comes to God's standards, God has no obligation whatsoever to bless our recipe. He only blesses his. So what is, what is the church? What is Christianity? What is love? Love isn't just affirmation. Love doesn't rejoice with unrighteousness, but it rejoices with the truth. Love tells each other the truth. And that's part of the problem with AI because of the algorithms, it's sort of built around you. And that's not wise counsel. That might be different information, but real love says, man, I love you, but that's not right. What you're believing here isn't right. God's word is right. Your feelings are something different or your thoughts are something. We don't trust in that anymore, but we. We trust in the Lord with our whole heart. And God's idea was godly. People would invest in you, not just to educate you on the facts, but help you live that out in practical ways. It's support. So in my life, I wrote a book called Hope for the Prodigal. And it was. It was, the story of my own son who went his own way. And I'll be honest with you, after being sober for years, closest I ever went back to drinking was watching what my son was doing. And if it wasn't for my ability to share with friends, to have people in the church who knew what I was dealing with and it was okay for me to be angry and let me vent and then process and then walk through it with me anyway and help me and my wife, I would have been out of ministry if it wasn't for real relationship. That comes from real, discipleship. I don't survive doing the things I should do.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Jim, I'm gonna hold you right there. You just preached a sermon, and I'm not mad about it at all. It was such. I have so many questions and so many more things to talk about. You really point down to the. We need to build those real relationships. It is through relationships that families can navigate these kinds of things. And I think the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy. And one of those things that he seeks, especially to destroy, is relationships. And we got so much more to talk about with Jim Putman when we come back about the power of together.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Don't go away.

Dr. Jessica Peck: We'll be right back. On the other side of this break.

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Big God by Terrian : yeah yeah. With foes on my left and fears on my right they think that I'm all by myself in this fight but they do not know the infinite size of the God who is by my side under fire but my Goliath standing in the shadow of the Almighty I ain't lying to fire man M I'm talking about a big God Big God when trouble comes around the way Only remedy for big odds is a big God Ain't nobody going to shake my faith no, I'm not afraid Throw my hands up and praise for the times that he pulled me through I'm counting on a big God that they can't stop He's a big God

Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Big God by Terrian and that's exactly what we're talking about today. A big God who can do more than you ask or imagine. Now, I know there are many of you out there listening. I know I've heard from you who are living with the pain of broken relationships in your family as we head into the holidays. I know that is starting to loom on the horizon. For some of you that is just an all the time everyday reality. And today I'm talking to Jim Putman about his miraculous story of restoration to his father being a prodigal himself, of having a son who ran and now is back just a generational restoration. His book we're talking about today is the Power of Together why Real Relationships Are Vital for Spiritual Growth. He also does have a book called Hope for the Prodigal. So if you wanna know more about that story, if that's something that you are struggling with, I know that is a resource that may encourage you and may give you some hope. And we are living right and what many are calling the loneliest generation. And despite being constantly connected, we are just deeply isolated. I see this even in families who live in digital silos because you are in the same room. Maybe Even on the same couch, but engrossed in your own little world, in your own technological silo. Maybe you even have earbuds on that. You don't even hear what's going on around you. And we're just living life coexisting rather than walking in relationship. Now, technology is intentionally made to make that connection effortless because there's opportunity for marketing there, and AI is offering companionship that never argues, never disagrees, never inconveniences us. As I said, I've been following this very closely. There's even a case now where AI influenced and had a conversation with a child who ended up taking his own life, and his parents are bringing his story forward through the courts to ask for accountability. These are serious things that we were talking about. And Jim, I was so moved by your story. I just think it's. It's such a, you often hear about family brokenness. You don't often hear about those miraculous restorations and those kinds of stories like you're sharing. They give us all hope to think, okay, we, we serve a big God who can do big things. Would you like to just say any more? I know we were talking a little bit during the break about the restoration of your son and just what that has looked like for three generations of men to be restored in relationship with God and with each other.

Jim Putman: Well, because my dad wasn't discipled. His dad never told him he was loved. Never, you know, none of that. my dad sort of swung the pendulum to I love you and really became overly affirmative, affirming, you know, in the sense of no discipline. He had reached, you know, had all discipline. Now there's no discipline. Right. And as that started to go where that goes, right. he, was wise enough to go, you know, this isn't working. I need mature, godly people to help me know what it's supposed to look like. So I really am thankful to my, to my parents for being humble enough to go. A multitude of counselors, is what brings wisdom, which is going back to the AI situation, when all you have is something that's designed to tell you what you want to hear or affirm you, or give you misinformation. It leads to a mess. You need mature, godly people who love you enough to tell you the truth. Love does not rejoice with unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. Love is an act of the will to lay down your life for the other. And sometimes that means, no, you're wrong. That's not going to work. And, and so my dad didn't know how to be in a good marriage either. And so he allowed people to speak into his life. Then he became a voice into my life and taught me what it looks like to ask. And so, and then I had people around me that helped keep me and my wife together because I, I, we could not figure out what to do and we could not get on the same page. And it was godly people in our church. You know, even as a pastor, I had people that, that were on my staff, and I'm the head pastor, but they raised kids and I, I might have the role, but they know more about parenting than I know. And inviting them to go, hey, I need to know what's true here. I need to know what works. I need to know where I'm wrong here. And and so those people helped my wife and I get through this and then also surrounded him. And so, you know, he's in ministry now. And all my kids are walking with the Lord now because they got to see the beauty of the church. Not just the church event, which the church event has never been enough. It's never going to be enough.

Dr. Jessica Peck: M. Absolutely. I keep thinking, you know, the thief comes to steal and kill and destroy. And I, I know that the enemy works in distortions and has from the very beginning in the garden. And I think there is a particular target for families who are in ministry to distort that reality and to distort those relationships. And when you have relationships that, that are distorted and that are unhealthy, you start to project that on your feelings of God. I shared with you. That was my own experience, which is really hard. But one of the concerns that I have, Jim, is that people are leaning on AI to tell them whatever it is they want to hear. And even in addition to AI, there are a lot of people who le on content creators. Now. There is a time and place for those. As I said, they can provide very, helpful information, encouragement. But that's very different than someone walking with you in everyday life having the courage to tell you the things, tell you the truth, and maybe not what you want to hear. I remember really specifically when one of my family members had called me and was having, you know, some marriage struggles. And, you know, I think that if you say what the, what the world wants you to hear, it's, oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, that's so unfair. Oh, I, I can't believe that. But instead you say, no, you are going to go back there right now and you are going to lay down your pride and you are going to apologize and you're going to listen and you're going to go to your pastor. Those kinds of things are hard to do, but that's the path that leads to life.

Jim: We've created sort of the wrong definition of spiritual maturity

What do you think it is that keeps people from walking in those real relationships and having success in doing so?

Jim Putman: Well, first of all, I work with a lot of pastors. I wrote a book called Relationship 2 Pastors on the same subject. Pastors were taught, keep everybody at an arm's distance. Don't tell them the truth about what you're got going on, because you got to have your life in order. And plus, if you tell them, they won't follow you. So what we celebrate people aspire to. When the pastor's always got it together, then everybody's, that's what it means to be mature. And I can't tell anybody different, then they'll judge me or I won't. I'll be, you know. And pastors are some of the loneliest people I've ever known. And as the head goes, the body follows. So it starts with saying, hey, here's God's plan, and I'm going to live that out. And I'm not asking you to do something I'm not doing. And it's okay to struggle. It's okay to confess your sins one to another, to carry one another's words. How can you carry my burden if I don't tell you? And we've created sort of the wrong definition of spiritual maturity. And we've created a, an event around what people can fit into their life. 1.2 times a month is the national average. And only 20 center in some sort of real life group. And in, even if you're in a life group, it's a Bible study where we're talking about content and information. And there's really no practical living out this sort of life in front of anybody so that you can see what those words actually mean. In practice, we can use a word, but you. Oftentimes we use the same words. We mean different things. And so my history sort of helps me filter what you're saying. And oftentimes you're absolutely wrong on what I'm saying. And so the problem with content creators alone as a form of discipleship is, first of all, the Bible says, you know, a tree by its fruit. If you, if you can't see the fruit and all you're doing is looking at the content, you don't know if they're really living that out to begin with. And you don't even know what they mean by half of what they say. secondly, the hard part isn't always to know what the Bible says. It's to know what it looks like in practicality. Again, I can't. When Jesus said, go do what I did, he had said, listen, you know my way of life. You've seen it. Paul said the same thing. You've seen my life. Now go do what I, believe both in word and content. Thirdly, a lot of times the real struggle is not to know what to do, but to be able to do it in the worst of conditions. The support you need to do hard things comes from relationship. We carry each other's burdens. You know, Ecclesiastes 4, there's a man who, was all alone. He had neither friend or brother. Where do I spend my life? What a miserable business. Two are better than one. Why, they can carry each other's burdens, right? With woe to the man who falls alone. Has no one to help him up. One can, not, defeat an enemy, but two can. And three are better than two. We've just created this lifestyle that leads us to be isolated. And the devil, that's his job. He wants to isolate you so that he can twist your thinking and mess with you. And we do it for him. We even create church processes and systems that help you do it. And so it just until we change the definition and we're willing to follow Jesus and change our life around what he says, not try to make him change around what we're doing. Until we, we preach a gospel. That's discipleship gospel. We live a discipleship church. We live maturity, in Christ as a disciple is your ability to love God and, and let them love you. Until we start celebrating that we're going to live in sort of a broken down model of Christianity.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I couldn't agree more, Jim.

One of the concerns about AI about content discipleship is loneliness

And one of the other concerns that I have about AI about content discipleship, is, I think it is driving this feeling of loneliness because you even talked about it when you were on your prodigal journey. You start to look for friends who are going to tell you what they want to hear, what you want to hear. And then it turns out those are not real friends at all. They're just, just telling you what you want to hear. And we're doing the same thing with AI. We're teaching AI to say, oh, yeah, let me just learn your preferences. And then it seems like it's more caring than a human relationship because it's a program. It doesn't forget your birthday. It doesn't forget about the big test you were studying for. It doesn't forget about that thing you were talking about. It prompts, it mimics human emotion, yet it still feels so empty. And I think the same thing with content discipleship. It's a one way street. You're just, you can look for someone who's telling you what you want to hear, who's saying those things that are very siloed, very narrow just from their platform. But there's no walking in relationship, there's no two way street about that. And I think we need to walk with people, with real people. Just like you're saying that God gave us that gift. Ah. And to carry bear one another's burdens in so doing fulfill the law of Christ. And there's, there is, that is a remedy for loneliness. And so how do you see the difference in, you know, finding those counterfeit friends versus having friends that are going to encourage you in your discipleship journey, even when that's hard?

Jim Putman: Yeah. I just want to say this. Most churches, even if, if they don't do AI or whatever, or they don't read books or whatever, it's still content. There's a guy up on stage talking. It's still content. it's still content discipleship. So to have a church where you sort of, we're going to do this this way. We're gonna, we're gonna meet together in temple courts, but it's from house to house daily. Acts 2, 42. Right. we're going to be devoted to the, to the, the apostles, teaching to fellowship. That that's coining a deep abiding relationship. How does that happen? It takes time. Daily they met together in one form or another. There's a. They knew who had need and they sold their possessions and goods to give it. There's a model of the church right there in scripture. So when you take AI for instance, that I think it can be a useful tool when it's used correctly. But even that's programmed, you know, it's being programmed either by programmers behind the scenes or by you because it's learned, what you want and it's meant to be centered around you and your preferences and your worldview versus, we're told to not follow our heart because it's the most wicked of all things. We're to deny ourselves, take up our cross daily and follow Jesus. It's actually built around us.

Jim Putman says disciple makers need to teach people what real friendship is

So I think when it comes to friends, one of the things that pastors will tell me is they don't, they don't have any good friends and they're looking for a good friend. Well, I, if you're a disciple maker and people are coming from the world, their version of friendship is the world's version. Part of being a disciple maker isn't just to preach the gospel and teach the gospel and, and teach about, you know, all scriptures God breathed, and it's used for training, correcting righteousness. Your job is to teach them what a real friend is and show them what a real friend is and allow them to be a real friend. And you start building friendships or if you don't really know what a real friend is, you don't even know what to look for to find one that is. And you might be going, well, you did, you didn't tell me what I wanted to hear. So you're not a real friend because your definition of a real friend is you always got to back my play no matter what. That's not biblical. So you got to go to the Word and determine what is a real friend. And then you got to, to start becoming that. And you got to start looking for people who do that, who are willing to do that. You got to talk about, here's what I expect in relationship. This is what I need from you. I need the truth now. I want you to do it in a loving way and that's what you're going to get from me. And we're going to start working on what this looks like in the church, because again, discipleship is. Do you know the story of Jesus? Do you know Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, you know, Genesis, Acts, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy? Do you know the story of Israel, the kings, the church history? You know, do you know, know what communion is? Where the Bible talks more about love, the one another's anything. Where is that actually being taught and unpacked and lived out? And so you got to start looking for something different if it's not around you. And, and then you, you start finding that and you start building that around yourself. Hopefully you have a church that's, that's helping you do that. A lot of them aren't though. I'll just be honest with you. So you got to start rather than being a victim and throw the baby out with the bathwater. No, I'm going to be a part of the church, but I'm going to start building a spiritual community around me and looking for that and, and, and living that out and build that around yourself. Because again, in ministry, the only person I ever had that was like that with me is my dad. I had to come, I had to come and start building that and, and allowing that. And it's painful. People hurt you, and you got to be like Jesus, who was hurt, and go, but I'm going to love you anyway. And I'm going to press in. I'm not going to take my ball and go home. And, and you gotta start living that out. And then pretty soon people start living it out as well or better than you at times, because there's always. They're strong at a time when you're weak. And then you gotta be reminded, you gotta have that.

Dr. Jessica Peck: We're already at our second break. I have so many more questions. We're being rudely interrupted by live radio. I'll be right back with more from Jim Putman on the power of together. You won't want to miss the rest of this conversation. Come back and see us after the break.

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God Is Good (All The Time) by Austin French: Lately I've been wrestling, with everything. Cause everything seems hard Been caught up in the worry and anxiety Keep staring me apart But I've been down and out, before. And every time, time I cry out to the Lord he meets me in my need I've seen and I believe God is good all the time Faithful as the sun to rise Walk with me every day of my life I'll sing it again I'll sing it again God is good yes, he is through it all I I'm sure of this safe inside My father's hands I'll sing it again

Dr. Jessica Peck: welcome back, friends. That is God Is Good all the Time by Austin French. Are there any of you out there who want to say. If I say God is good, are you saying all the times you're driving in your car down the road and I say all the time? You can say it back. God is good. I, My granny raised me to say that. And it's a good reminder that God is good all the time. No matter what kind of life struggles you're going through, no matter what kind of trials or traumas or tragedies or conflicts that you are facing, God is good all the time. And God designed us in his image to walk in relationship with each other throughout our lives, pursuing sanctification until we are reunited with Him. And I'm talking today, I'm having a fascinating, very inspiring conversation with Jim Putman. And he, we're talking about his book today, the Power of Together why Real Relationships Are Vital for Spiritual Growth. And we, we've been talking about how AI is shaping our world and it is giving us this counterfeit friendship, even a, counterfeit discipleship. And that is really concerning to me and Jim. One of the things that you talk about in the book is this, this concept of being. Having these relationships be transactional versus transformational. And I definitely see this as we're walking out because we live in a world of instant gratification. If we, I mean Jim, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, you're probably in a gener me that grew up before Google. Like we did not have the Internet. I grew up in literally the previous century. But one of the things about growing up in that time was that we didn't have the Internet. We had to go to people that we trusted to get information. Now sometimes that wasn't great information if you got it from your peers, but you're walking through that in relationship. But now, I mean Google now is transformed by AI and even giving you even more interaction, more of that transaction even. I think, I think Covid to some extent changed the churches to be more transactional. We consume them, we watch them online, we go, I want to like the worship. I want to get a good sermon that, you know, makes me feel good from the pastor and, and then I'll give them some money. And it's all transactional. And then we even see how a lot of platforms are gamifying use. So we use a platform, we get a notification back, we hit, get a hit of dopamine. Everything is so transactional. And the truth is that relationship are messy and spiritual growth is messy. And you contrasted so well, Jim, the cultural messages of follow your heart, which scripture says the heart is wicked above all things. Who can trust it? And scripture says treat yourself, you deserve it. Scripture says deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. These aren't attractive, compelling messages on the surface. That's why we've got to Walk in relationship to know that we're pursuing a greater good, we're pursuing the narrow road. So how do we keep, keep these relationships from being transactional? Because I feel like a lot of people are saying when they don't get that that transaction isn't satisfactory, I'm just going to walk away. Unfriend, ghost, all of these things that have crept into culture. What do you think?

Jim Putman: There's a marriage book out there that I actually like the best. It's called Sacred Marriage. And his statement in that marriage is, marriage isn't to make you happy, it's to make you holy. And that's sort of a principle of this, understanding that, that the relationships around us point us back to God and God points us to those relationships. And, and biblical relationships point us back to God and to one another. But the source of that is your, your relationship with Jesus. So what makes a marriage not transactional? Well, if you go through the book of Ephesians out of reverence for Christ, submit therefore one to another. In other words, because of Jesus, if you're really walking with Jesus, you're going to submit yourself to others needs and minister, right? Husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church, right? as you go through for an employer here, remember you have a master in heaven. As you abide in Christ, the fruit of your life becomes. I do this because of what Jesus has already done for me. There's the strength, there's the direction. And if you, if you're doing the dishes so that you can, you know, get something for that for your wife, right? Or you're okay. The question is, what's the motivation? You're really, you're really doing it even, even in your, you know, I'll give so God will give me. I'm really trying to maneuver, maneuver and man manipulate God to get what I want by giving him a little something, hoping I'll get what I want. I'm trying to buy him off. Transactional relationships is not what we were made work for. That's not how it works. That's not a godly relationship. It's not 50, 50. It's 100% because of what Jesus has done. I've been bought for a price. So now, now that your flesh, the world says only do it as long as you're, if that's the way you're going to live, you're actually immature. Don't call it Christianity. But you know, you're an infant in Christ at best. Maybe not a Christian at all. If you follow Jesus so you can have hell insurance and then go do whatever you want, it's in view of his mercy. We're transformed by the renewing of our mind. Right. And, and so, so this whole transactional mindset is very human. And I, I have people say to me all the time, you know, I did that and it didn't work, so I'm not doing it anymore. So you did it so it would work. What does working mean? No, you do it because of what God has already done, whether it works on planet Earth or not. And if you don't abide in Christ and you're not really soaking in that, that everything becomes transactional. Scripture says the pagans are kind to people who are kind to them. What makes that makes you any different? So understanding what the Bible means by all of this and then living in abiding relationship with Jesus produces fruit. But apart from, him, you can do nothing. So that's really the sort of the key of remembering who you are, who you belong to, what your role is, why you do what you do. If you get away from the word of God on any of this, you become like the peers you become. Your sinful nature starts to take over, and you've got to die to that every day.

Jim, what makes your testimony so compelling is your personal testimony

Dr. Jessica Peck: Jim, I think what makes your testimony so compelling is your personal testimony. Because on the surface, some of these things that you're saying, like that doesn't sound appealing, like, who's going to say, yeah, oh yeah, I want to deny myself and take up my cross and, you know, I want to be transformed and I want to be holy and I to want. I won't pursue being happy. You know, on the surface, some of those things can sound counterintuitive to our sinful human nature. But the thing that sticks out to me about you is that you shared very clearly. You've lived both ways. You've lived pursuing your own happiness, and you have lived pursuing sanctification, pursuing holiness through a relationship with God. And clearly you are sitting here on the side saying, this is better. And at some point you had to come to a decision where you. I think there's a lot of people who are just kind of sitting in whatever misery they're. They're sitting in, sitting in whatever relational conflict they are, whether that's loneliness or, or separation or whatever it is. And they're just kind of waiting for something magical to happen. But at some point, you've got to make a decision. What does that decision look like? And what would you say to compel people to take something up. That seems so difficult.

Jim Putman: Well, you. You kind of said it. I. I lived doing exactly what I wanted to do, and then I got to live in the consequences of it. And I wanted to get saved. I didn't want to just be saved from hell. I knew that's where I was going. I wanted to be saved from my own perspective. That had led to misery in every possible way. Way. And so for me, it was, Was there a time where it was fun? Yeah. I always look at it like if you were to go on top of a. You know, a tower and you jump off, it's kind of a thrill for a little bit. It's like, wow, what a rush. But the. The ground's coming, so they may not be in that place yet. It's still a little bit fun. It's still. It's still great, you know, for a little bit, it's fun, but in the end, that's where it leads to by, the way. Which is why parents need to stop trying to keep their kids from hitting the bottom if they never have to experience it. They don't know how bad it is. But, what does it look like to go, all right, God's way is better? And to go. I'll use this example. I used to abuse my father. Could care less. Could care less what he said about anything. And I'd even intentionally hurt him. And then when he was the only one left standing and loved me anyway and walked me back, back. My heart was changed. I understood that everything he said was actually because he loved me and he cared about me, and he was actually right. Now. Now that I understand that, I. I'm thankful for what he tried to teach me. And on this side of that, do I still make mistakes and sometimes hurt his feelings? Yes. But I don't want to anymore. And he's not irrelevant anymore. He. He matters to me now. And it's the same thing with the gospel. I rejected God. I rejected all of that. And, I wrestled with God about everything. I don't agree with this. This isn't right. Now that. That I understand his heart for me on the cross and his love for me and the goodness he has for me. I still make mistakes. But then I'm like, man, I can't believe I heard him like that. And I can't. Boy, I did that again. And now I don't wrestle with God anymore. I wrestle with my sin nature with God's help. And, there's just a change that has to happen. And, and some people just aren't there yet. Some people may never get there. but the truth is denying yourself, it really means that God takes over and his commands are for your good in every possible way. So if I don't see it as good, it's not him that's wrong, it's my perspective. And I may not know how you yet, but he's proven himself on the cross and in my life doing it his way is just It's so much more fulfilling. It's so much more than the other side was. And it's still not going to, not right now what it's going to be. There's still suffering and struggle. I'm not in heaven yet. On this side of heaven, I'm not in heaven. But I now have a taste of it. I now seen the difference of it. And I know when I get there, all of it will be as it was supposed to be in the beginning before, so.

Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Jim, I'm sure that it wasn't easy for your father to love you like that and to love you unconditionally. And he was learning as he went, just as you said. And then you saw that as you loved your son and you've shared how difficult that was. Speak to those people who are not the prodigals themselves, but who are seeking relationship. How do they have relationship with someone, someone who's running. How do you have the courage to fight for those relationships while still speaking truth and putting up healthy boundaries, but still showing a love that you've described, you know, from your father to you and you to your son. That just seems so counter to human nature.

Jim Putman: Well, again, some of us are righteousness people. You deserve this, you did that. And, and you know, and others of us are grace people. With my wife, she was like, oh, we just gotta love him. And I was like, hey, there's rules here. There's gotta be consequences. Each of us sort of have a bent. And if we're not really abiding in Christ or we're in pain or whatever we go to, our limbic system kicks in. Fight. Freeze. Fight to understand that you need a round of counsel when you're suffering and you don't know what to do, do. So first, you got to have somebody who's not so in it that they can be on top of it. Just understand when you're in it, you're very likely not seeing all the outside perspective objectively. You need the Lord's perspective and, and godly people can come and help you work through all of that. And so seeking counsel on how to deal with that, even if you're a mature believer, you can give somebody else wise advice. You put it in on your own kid's situation where you have loved that kid their whole life. Things get wonky in your own mind, and you either take too much blame or, you know, for me and my wife, the, counselor said to us, we each had a plan. And we. And, I had a plan, but the plan, from my wife's perspective, only worked as if my son appreciated it, right? And, and so we couldn't figure it out. And my counselor, he was just a friend, staff member of our church, said, guys, you're trying to argue with a fool and win. You can't argue with a fool and win. There's no way you're going to come up with a godly plan for a fool that he's going to appreciate. So you need to come together and stop making that the thing and go, what's the right thing? And you need to listen to each other. And he walked us through that. Both her and I thought we were doing the godly thing, but we were so in it, we couldn't get on it. And so that sort of help from a paid, counselor, from real friends from, you know, people who could help you be objective and point to Jesus got us through all that. And we need that as a part of being a Christ follower in every aspect of our life, in my opinion.

Dr. Jessica Peck: I, I agree. Jim, thank you so much for sharing this with us. I think this is something that resonates so deeply with every human living on the planet and relationship, whether that's their family relationships, whether it's friendships that you're struggling with. And I just thank you for sharing with us from your book. Again, the book is by Jim Putman. It's called the Power of Together. Why Real Relationships Are Vital for Spiritual Growth. And I encourage you to get a copy of it. And remember, as you're going about your week, as you're going into the holidays AI can replicate conversation, but not creation. AI can copy language, but it doesn't copy love. You were made in the image of God. You were designed for real relationships that shape you, for your good and for God's glory. And because life isn't meant to be lived alone, no machine can ever replace the miracle of being known and being deeply loved by God. And wherever you are, I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you. And be gracious to you. And I'll see you right back here tomorrow.

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Jeff Chamblee: opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.

Pastor and Author Jim Putman talks with Jessica about how to build real relationships in a digitally distracted world. 

Rx for Hope: Build Real Relationships in Community

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