Bert Harper I know our regular listeners hear me say this a lot. We are thankful for the guest we have today. It is someone who we've interviewed before, but today I'm excitedly more so than before. Nathan. We're really seeing God operate around the world because of technology and everything like that and fast way of communication. We find out what God's doing a lot of times. Pretty close right after it happens, don't we?
Nathan Harper Yeah, that's a very good advantage, I guess, a positive of living in our, I guess connected and high tech world. Some people have said the world is flat. In other words, news and everything can travel quickly. Sometimes it's the bad news that travels faster than the good news. But today we're excited to hear about some good news.
Bert Harper We really are. And so I'll not, take any more time. I want to introduce our guest today. It's Don Shank. He's with the Tide Ministries. The Tide Ministries. And listen, it is an awesome ministry and if you want to find out more about it, you can go to the Tide ministry and it'll come up and you'll find out more about that. But Don is the executive director. He's been with them since 2011.
And if you don't know about the TIDE ministry, it's been around for 80 years. It's a ministry that we've kept, up with, that we encourage people to know about, about their mission and what they're doing. So, Don, thank you for joining us today on, exploring Missions.
Don Shank Well, thank you for the opportunity, Bert. It's always a joy to chat with you and Nathan and share what God's doing around the world.
Nathan Harper So the website, I think thetide.org so thetide.org and we are excited to be talking with Don Shank today. Don, tell us a little bit about the broad vision of ministry that you have. What does the TIDE do around the world?
Don Shank Certainly, what we do is we work with indigenous groups around the world just to help enable them and equip them to share the gospel with their own people in their own language. And we're not a translation service, but we are helping to coach them and enable them, as I said, to preach the gospel in their own language.
So somebody who has been touched by Christ and who has experienced salvation, to be able to share that with their own people in a very culturally relevant manner. And God has opened doors for us to be able to do that. Currently, we have active ministry outreaches in 14 countries or regions and over 40 different languages.
Bert Harper Wow. And recently, and we're going to get to this because this is what we really struck a note with Nathan and me both. Where you've recently been, you've been recently at a very difficult place for Christians. It's called Pakistan. I understand it is very difficult there. And those of you that are not geographically knowledgeable, get a globe out, get a map out and find Pakistan and put it on your list to be praying for them. But recently you returned from Pakistan, Don, and I was really wanting to know about your visit. What did you observe there at your visit?
Don Shank Well, I had a, wonderful time. Despite what all you hear about Pakistan, the people there are friendly, engaging, very hospitable, and, even people who didn't know me, people who, you know, from the airport on into the hotel, we were there to visit with some friends and to engage in some conferences that were going on there. It's overall very, very wonderful, a beautiful place to be. Now, that's the one side of it. And the activities that we were engaged in were very inspiring and encouraging. We participated as guests in a major, evangelistic campaign put on by a theological seminary there in Lahore, Pakistan. And there were thousands of people who attended that. The one evening Service, they said there were 4,500 people. another one of the services, there was around 35.
They estimated 3,500. And we also got to engage with students at the Bible School, and I was there specifically to talk about some partnering initiatives where the Bible School wants to initiate a media training program into their curriculum. And so we're going to be working with them on that. But overall, I'd say it was a very, very positive experience for me.
Nathan Harper So, Don, as we talk about Pakistan and your recent trip there, many of us are, I would include myself, not well informed about maybe the cultural or religious background or even the lay of the land, if you will. So there are Christians in Pakistan, and apparently there is. You can meet publicly. Everything doesn't have to take place underground like in some countries. It might. What is the openness, the cultural, religious situation like in Pakistan?
Don Shank Overall, it does depend to some degree on what community you're in or a specific region. Because historically Pakistan used to be part of India. India was a much larger country. And Pakistan, when the British kind of gave independence, they carved it up a little bit by religious boundaries. And so Pakistan was predominantly Islamic and continues to be Islamic. And in fact it is an Islamic republic. So its official religion is Islam and the majority of the population are practicing Muslims. But the Constitution of Pakistan, guarantees religious freedom. So anyone is free to practice, to live out, profess their faith. So Christians can legally exist, and they do, and they have the freedom to practice their faith.
Even to evangelize is not illegal. What is illegal? There are books in the law that say it is illegal to say anything against the Quran or anything against the Prophet Muhammad. And so that's where, where it becomes difficult for believers is in the expression of their faith. They have to be very careful. It's okay to practice your faith, to express your faith, but you cannot really debate against another religion. And you know, that's the beautiful thing about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You present the light and shine the light. People are attracted to that.
Bert Harper Amen. When I hear that, I just can't help but think of the Book of Acts overcoming all the barriers that were there in the different locations. And what you said about the regions in Pakistan, and, there were places that Paul would go in the Book of Acts that were more difficult than others. But the Bible college, that intrigued me. There is a Bible college there in Pakistan?
Don Shank Yes. And it's not the only Bible college in Pakistan.
Bert Harper Wow. This is information.
Don Shank And I'd taken some photo and, a few little video clips and I said, do I need to be careful? Do I need to blur faces on this, you know, if I post it or share it? And he said, no, you don't. He said, we're not doing anything. We're just here sharing the gospel, we're practicing our faith, we're doing nothing illegal. So from a, from a legal government standpoint, that's fine.
Nathan Harper So, Don, to kind of dig down a little deeper into this, because I think it's helpful for all of us to understand how our brothers and sisters live in different parts of the world and what they have to, deal with and how they face potential persecution and different things like that. So in Pakistan, it's one of maybe 80 to 90 countries in the world that currently have what are known as blasphemy laws that are in the books. And so, even in a place that like Pakistan has constitutional guaranteed freedom of religion, there are still those laws that you mentioned that would be called blasphemy laws. What are the kind of dangers, maybe in Pakistan, but maybe just generally in any country that has blasphemy laws on the books, and they can vary from various religions, have these, most of the harsh penalty places where you find like the death penalty, those are, Islamic regimes that are kind of, enforcing those. But how, in a practical sense, what are blasphemy laws have to do with practicing your faith and following Jesus?
Don Shank Well, as long as, as you're only sharing Jesus, here's how this works out. I visited with a gentleman. I've become friends with him over the years in Pakistan. He works for the Pakistan center for Law and justice, and he helps to get representation and aid for people who have been accused of blasphemy. And a couple cases that he's working with right now are people that have shared a post on social media. And one of the posts that was shared was a side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad. And that was treated as blasphemy. Somebody saw it, reported it, and said this is blasphemous because it was putting Muhammad in a negative light. So that's where the risk, like I said, the risk comes in sharing your faith.
The best way to reach Muslims is to actively debate. And so in that active debate, you have to be very careful what you say. You have to, in your debate be arguing for Christ, not against anything else, not against Muhammad.
Bert Harper When I hear this and understand it, I do know more about India because the connection that we've had with India, but the similarities are just really real, although they're two separate countries, they were joined together in one, as you said. But I see that regionally area. And is Pakistan, is it governmentally retold by regions, or is it by the whole nation itself? Or do they have city states? Or how is that organized? Which would help me to understand, I hope, our, listeners too. Okay. Why would one area be more difficult than another area?
Don Shank Yeah, it is divided up into regions. I don't think they use the term states there. I think they use regions or territories, but there are different territories. And so in some of those areas, the number of Christians is lower and the dedication to Islam is even higher.
And we see this in the responses that we get to some of our programs. We do help with a Christian ministry there that is reaching out in four different languages in Pakistan. One of those, the Pashto language, is very, the Pashtun people are very, very devout Muslims. And some of the responses, we get some positive responses for them. We start with the Old Testaments, because that is the prophets, because that's commonality. There's commonality there. And try to show how the prophecies point to Christ, but they don't accept that, and they will argue and push back. So we don't always get positive feedback from our listeners. If I can just share one here. I pulled one out of a recent report, and one of the listeners said, we believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a holy prophet of Allah. We believe that the law he brought has now been superseded and that today there is only one religion accepted by the Almighty throughout the Word, and that is Islam as stated in the Holy Quran. Indeed, the religion with Allah is Islam. Therefore, please understand that even if you spend your entire life telling us these things, not a single person would convert to Christianity. That came from a listener. Now, of course, our boots on the ground there.
Push back a little bit on that, on the nature of who Jesus Christ is. I won't read their response. Some of the things that they explained, how they explained, are you back against that? But there's this mindset that Jesus is not the Messiah, he is a prophet. And what we are trying to do is to get people to understand he is the Son of God. And despite this guy saying not, one person would convert, I can tell you people do convert. There are large Christian communities in Pakistan and thriving, growing congregations. But they do have that risk. They have that constant weight over their heads. And anything I say or do in public might be misinterpreted as blasphemy.
Nathan Harper Well, thank you, Don, for, Clearing that up, that really helps us to understand the pressure that our brothers and sisters are faced with. Something that is really not even on our, on our radars. And now it is. And so we know how to be praying a little bit more specifically for them in Pakistan. And let me ask this as a follow up really about follow up if you will. So let's say a listener to one of the radio programs that you guys help facilitate and train and lean into, maybe they do respond with some curiosity or some interest and tell me more about Jesus. How does follow up from a radio program like that happen?
Don Shank It happens. A lot of it is now happening online because more and more people are using text Messaging or WhatsApp and some of these messaging apps and even a lot of these programs are on social media. So the interaction is taken on there. So there is a written kind of a. Develop a relationship, a communication relationship there. But it does progress to in person connections and what we call seekers conferences where some curious listeners or those who really seem to be willing to engage are invited to gather for a time of teaching and serious question and answer time. So there is that personal element. And I often tell people that the media is sort of the tip of the iceberg.
The work on the ground is the meat m of what we're doing around the world to help people to embrace the message they're hearing and understand what it means to be a follower of Jesus, to really understand the Christian faith.
Bert Harper A thing that really because I see this happen in other religions, not just in difficult places, but even here, someone that does start asking these questions and they begin to respond, maybe Internet or they may have known a believer and they go to them and they talk. If this person comes to Christ and becomes a follower of Christ, is he disowned by the immediate family or is there. That's a tendency in all Muslim. But I didn't know if Pakistan was that severe or not.
When it was concerning family, how would they respond? I, I didn't know if you talked to anyone like that or heard of anything like that in Pakistan or not. Don?
Don Shank Yeah, that is a huge. Converting from Islam to Christianity is a huge risk. It carries with it the potential of being ostracized from the family. And even worse than that, that in itself can be interpreted as blasphemy. I don't know if that would legally be interpreted as blasphemy. But a, ah, Muslim would believe if someone from their family converted to Christianity they were committing blasphemy. And if they did not recant. Some families feel like it's their duty to actually kill that person. So the risk of death is there. And we have had, some listeners respond like they've gone into hiding because their family is after them because they're following Christ.
Nathan Harper So today we are speaking with Don Shank, who is with the Tide. You can check out their [email protected] we have several more minutes with Don.
Don, can you give us. You've kind of touched on it already at the beginning of this program, but can you maybe give us some specifics? What is some of the impact that the Tide is seeing that the gospel of Jesus Christ is making in Pakistan right now? What either numbers or maybe even a story or two, something that you are seeing as just God glorifying, just an impact that you're seeing.
Don Shank I'll just say, you know, we were talking about the Pashto language program just to share a little bit about that. You know, I gave a couple of negative responses there. There are also positive responses and a lot of that is on social media. They now have on the social media pages over 2,700 followers. And that's been a significant increase recently showing an impact and the, actual audience interactions. They had over 1,000 people either making a comment or liking their content. So there is, we're seeing a growing level of engagement to the programs that are posted on social media. And everybody has cell phones around the world. Everybody is on social media. We're finding that actually becoming a more impactful channel than radios. It depends. next door in India, we still have a much larger response to our shortwave radio broadcast there. We have, in a three month, every three month period, we have 4,500 to 5,000 people responding to the radio broadcast. But yeah, in Pakistan we're getting a, much higher response from the social media postings that we have
Bert Harper with the broadcast radio hours. Is it 247 or at, specific times? And the language, do they have different? I know how India is with their dialect. So many. Is the dialects in Pakistan as varied as it is in India? I know that's a compound question, but take a stab at it, Don. Whichever one you want to answer.
Don Shank Okay, I'll start with the number of languages. There's not as many languages in Pakistan, but there are a variety of languages. And some are much larger people groups, some are smaller people groups. But the, going back to the broadcast radio broadcasts actually in Pakistan right now, we don't have.
I think I'm speaking right. I, Double check with my partners. I think they have actually stopped broadcasting and are only posting on social media and distributing on handheld audio devices. These ones that are locked content, that the content can't be changed, but that allows people to go into a private place and listen quietly out of the public to teaching programs. But in places like India next Door, where we are broadcasting, that is usually, just on a set time schedule. So they know every week what time the program's coming on.
Nathan Harper It's good to hear that you guys are responsive to what the needs are of the people on the ground, where there needs to be kind of a ongoing set program and people can tune in to the radio program or maybe keep it in a private setting. That's good to hear that you guys are flexible in that way. Speaking of flexibility, the Tide does a lot of different things. How can our listeners learn more?
I know we want to send them to the tide.org but when they go there, there's ways to get involved, whether it's prayer or giving. But there's other things that you guys are involved in. Can you tell us a little bit about one or two of those, ways that our listeners might be involved with the Tithes ministry?
Don Shank Certainly. You have mentioned, being a prayer partner, financial partner. That's huge for the ministry. There's also opportunities to volunteer as an advocate for the Tide. We're looking to get people in different communities, congregations, being somebody who can help share about the Tide ministry. Share prayer requests. Share.
When we have events going on, we do an annual race to share the gospel, which when we do that in the spring, it's an in person event, but then it is also a virtual event. So anybody, anytime throughout the year can go online and sign up to do one of our races. And it's a unique experience where you do it at your own pace, however you want, but it'll take you around a route around a certain country with prayer points. It's fun to do, but that's a way to engage and to learn more about the countries where we're ministering and to have specific prayer points there. For that. We do coordinate some promotion events called Taste of the Tide. we also have something here called have you heard where we're asking people here in the US Bring spiritual elements into your everyday conversations. Instead of asking people about their favorite sports, about their work, ask how they are spiritually and what are their beliefs, where are they headed, what do they believe? And if they are a believer, rejoice with them. If they are not, share the Gospel with them.
This is what the Tide exists to do to tell people about Jesus.
Bert Harper Amen. We were talking about the countries Asia and Africa. Those are the two main places you will find the tide ministries operating. Am I right there, Don?
Don Shank You are correct. We do have a presence in the Balkan region. So we do have. We started in Albanian, Kosovo. We're now in the Republic of North Macedonia, have programming in Serbia.
Now looking to go into all the former Yugoslavia countries. So we are trying to expand in that area. But currently, yeah, our. Our largest presence is in Africa and Asia, mostly South Asia, but reaching also into Central Asia.
Nathan Harper So, Don, I was just checking out the website thetide.org and there's a prayer guide already out for this coming winter. I'm not sure where you're listening from today, but where I'm recording, from, it's not winter yet. However we can.
Bert Harper It's still summer where we are.
Nathan Harper Yeah, it's still pretty warm, honestly. But, there's a day. There's a day set aside to pray for Pakistan. Can I just read that? And this will be a good way our listeners can begin praying to join what the tide is doing, what God is already doing, how the gospel is being carried out throughout Pakistan. Let me just read this for us as a prayer point. He says, pray for our boots on the ground partners who share these thoughts in a recent report. We have now begun sharing stories from the Old Testament with the hope that these narratives will help build trust within the Pashtun community. Since many of these stories are also found in Islamic teachings, we believe this shared familiarity can serve as a bridge to connect with them and foster greater openness toward the Christian message. So our prayer point is to ask God to open the heart and mind of each listener today.
Bert Harper Wow. When I hear that, Don, the first thing that came to my mind was Paul in Athens walking through the streets.
He is looking for something, a commonality, and it was to the unknown God. So this relationship of having something in common to launch from really is effective, isn't it?
Don Shank And that's why we don't speak against other religions, but to find if there is comm. Commonality and to lead them down from that path of commonality into the light of Christ.
Bert Harper Well, we're going to be praying for this, Nathan. And what we're hearing and what we're seeing, and we've talked to people who are involved in international missions around the world, is the gospel of Jesus Christ is greater than. And that's the joy we have that we can share Christ. Because honestly, Nathan, I want you to respond. Christ stands alone, doesn't he?
Nathan Harper Absolutely. You don't have to call attention to any faults. You don't have to point to the darkness. Right? You just lift up Jesus and he will do the drawing of all peoples to himself.
And so that's our job. Point to Jesus, make much of Jesus. And I thank you, Don, for leading the way in that.
Don Shank Thank you. It's a huge support base that keeps the Tithe ministry going. They deserve the thanks more than me.
Bert Harper Again, thank you, Don. Thank you, Nathan. And we pray that you who are listening would know that you can be involved in missions by praying, by giving. And one of those ministries is the Tide ministries.
Thank you again for listening and let's stay on mission with God.
Bert Harper I know our regular listeners hear me say this a lot. We are thankful for the guest we have today. It is someone who we've interviewed before, but today I'm excitedly more so than before. Nathan. We're really seeing God operate around the world because of technology and everything like that and fast way of communication. We find out what God's doing a lot of times. Pretty close right after it happens, don't we?
Nathan Harper Yeah, that's a very good advantage, I guess, a positive of living in our, I guess connected and high tech world. Some people have said the world is flat. In other words, news and everything can travel quickly. Sometimes it's the bad news that travels faster than the good news. But today we're excited to hear about some good news.
Bert Harper We really are. And so I'll not, take any more time. I want to introduce our guest today. It's Don Shank. He's with the Tide Ministries. The Tide Ministries. And listen, it is an awesome ministry and if you want to find out more about it, you can go to the Tide ministry and it'll come up and you'll find out more about that. But Don is the executive director. He's been with them since 2011.
And if you don't know about the TIDE ministry, it's been around for 80 years. It's a ministry that we've kept, up with, that we encourage people to know about, about their mission and what they're doing. So, Don, thank you for joining us today on, exploring Missions.
Don Shank Well, thank you for the opportunity, Bert. It's always a joy to chat with you and Nathan and share what God's doing around the world.
Nathan Harper So the website, I think thetide.org so thetide.org and we are excited to be talking with Don Shank today. Don, tell us a little bit about the broad vision of ministry that you have. What does the TIDE do around the world?
Don Shank Certainly, what we do is we work with indigenous groups around the world just to help enable them and equip them to share the gospel with their own people in their own language. And we're not a translation service, but we are helping to coach them and enable them, as I said, to preach the gospel in their own language.
So somebody who has been touched by Christ and who has experienced salvation, to be able to share that with their own people in a very culturally relevant manner. And God has opened doors for us to be able to do that. Currently, we have active ministry outreaches in 14 countries or regions and over 40 different languages.
Bert Harper Wow. And recently, and we're going to get to this because this is what we really struck a note with Nathan and me both. Where you've recently been, you've been recently at a very difficult place for Christians. It's called Pakistan. I understand it is very difficult there. And those of you that are not geographically knowledgeable, get a globe out, get a map out and find Pakistan and put it on your list to be praying for them. But recently you returned from Pakistan, Don, and I was really wanting to know about your visit. What did you observe there at your visit?
Don Shank Well, I had a, wonderful time. Despite what all you hear about Pakistan, the people there are friendly, engaging, very hospitable, and, even people who didn't know me, people who, you know, from the airport on into the hotel, we were there to visit with some friends and to engage in some conferences that were going on there. It's overall very, very wonderful, a beautiful place to be. Now, that's the one side of it. And the activities that we were engaged in were very inspiring and encouraging. We participated as guests in a major, evangelistic campaign put on by a theological seminary there in Lahore, Pakistan. And there were thousands of people who attended that. The one evening Service, they said there were 4,500 people. another one of the services, there was around 35.
They estimated 3,500. And we also got to engage with students at the Bible School, and I was there specifically to talk about some partnering initiatives where the Bible School wants to initiate a media training program into their curriculum. And so we're going to be working with them on that. But overall, I'd say it was a very, very positive experience for me.
Nathan Harper So, Don, as we talk about Pakistan and your recent trip there, many of us are, I would include myself, not well informed about maybe the cultural or religious background or even the lay of the land, if you will. So there are Christians in Pakistan, and apparently there is. You can meet publicly. Everything doesn't have to take place underground like in some countries. It might. What is the openness, the cultural, religious situation like in Pakistan?
Don Shank Overall, it does depend to some degree on what community you're in or a specific region. Because historically Pakistan used to be part of India. India was a much larger country. And Pakistan, when the British kind of gave independence, they carved it up a little bit by religious boundaries. And so Pakistan was predominantly Islamic and continues to be Islamic. And in fact it is an Islamic republic. So its official religion is Islam and the majority of the population are practicing Muslims. But the Constitution of Pakistan, guarantees religious freedom. So anyone is free to practice, to live out, profess their faith. So Christians can legally exist, and they do, and they have the freedom to practice their faith.
Even to evangelize is not illegal. What is illegal? There are books in the law that say it is illegal to say anything against the Quran or anything against the Prophet Muhammad. And so that's where, where it becomes difficult for believers is in the expression of their faith. They have to be very careful. It's okay to practice your faith, to express your faith, but you cannot really debate against another religion. And you know, that's the beautiful thing about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You present the light and shine the light. People are attracted to that.
Bert Harper Amen. When I hear that, I just can't help but think of the Book of Acts overcoming all the barriers that were there in the different locations. And what you said about the regions in Pakistan, and, there were places that Paul would go in the Book of Acts that were more difficult than others. But the Bible college, that intrigued me. There is a Bible college there in Pakistan?
Don Shank Yes. And it's not the only Bible college in Pakistan.
Bert Harper Wow. This is information.
Don Shank And I'd taken some photo and, a few little video clips and I said, do I need to be careful? Do I need to blur faces on this, you know, if I post it or share it? And he said, no, you don't. He said, we're not doing anything. We're just here sharing the gospel, we're practicing our faith, we're doing nothing illegal. So from a, from a legal government standpoint, that's fine.
Nathan Harper So, Don, to kind of dig down a little deeper into this, because I think it's helpful for all of us to understand how our brothers and sisters live in different parts of the world and what they have to, deal with and how they face potential persecution and different things like that. So in Pakistan, it's one of maybe 80 to 90 countries in the world that currently have what are known as blasphemy laws that are in the books. And so, even in a place that like Pakistan has constitutional guaranteed freedom of religion, there are still those laws that you mentioned that would be called blasphemy laws. What are the kind of dangers, maybe in Pakistan, but maybe just generally in any country that has blasphemy laws on the books, and they can vary from various religions, have these, most of the harsh penalty places where you find like the death penalty, those are, Islamic regimes that are kind of, enforcing those. But how, in a practical sense, what are blasphemy laws have to do with practicing your faith and following Jesus?
Don Shank Well, as long as, as you're only sharing Jesus, here's how this works out. I visited with a gentleman. I've become friends with him over the years in Pakistan. He works for the Pakistan center for Law and justice, and he helps to get representation and aid for people who have been accused of blasphemy. And a couple cases that he's working with right now are people that have shared a post on social media. And one of the posts that was shared was a side by side comparison of Jesus and Muhammad. And that was treated as blasphemy. Somebody saw it, reported it, and said this is blasphemous because it was putting Muhammad in a negative light. So that's where the risk, like I said, the risk comes in sharing your faith.
The best way to reach Muslims is to actively debate. And so in that active debate, you have to be very careful what you say. You have to, in your debate be arguing for Christ, not against anything else, not against Muhammad.
Bert Harper When I hear this and understand it, I do know more about India because the connection that we've had with India, but the similarities are just really real, although they're two separate countries, they were joined together in one, as you said. But I see that regionally area. And is Pakistan, is it governmentally retold by regions, or is it by the whole nation itself? Or do they have city states? Or how is that organized? Which would help me to understand, I hope, our, listeners too. Okay. Why would one area be more difficult than another area?
Don Shank Yeah, it is divided up into regions. I don't think they use the term states there. I think they use regions or territories, but there are different territories. And so in some of those areas, the number of Christians is lower and the dedication to Islam is even higher.
And we see this in the responses that we get to some of our programs. We do help with a Christian ministry there that is reaching out in four different languages in Pakistan. One of those, the Pashto language, is very, the Pashtun people are very, very devout Muslims. And some of the responses, we get some positive responses for them. We start with the Old Testaments, because that is the prophets, because that's commonality. There's commonality there. And try to show how the prophecies point to Christ, but they don't accept that, and they will argue and push back. So we don't always get positive feedback from our listeners. If I can just share one here. I pulled one out of a recent report, and one of the listeners said, we believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is a holy prophet of Allah. We believe that the law he brought has now been superseded and that today there is only one religion accepted by the Almighty throughout the Word, and that is Islam as stated in the Holy Quran. Indeed, the religion with Allah is Islam. Therefore, please understand that even if you spend your entire life telling us these things, not a single person would convert to Christianity. That came from a listener. Now, of course, our boots on the ground there.
Push back a little bit on that, on the nature of who Jesus Christ is. I won't read their response. Some of the things that they explained, how they explained, are you back against that? But there's this mindset that Jesus is not the Messiah, he is a prophet. And what we are trying to do is to get people to understand he is the Son of God. And despite this guy saying not, one person would convert, I can tell you people do convert. There are large Christian communities in Pakistan and thriving, growing congregations. But they do have that risk. They have that constant weight over their heads. And anything I say or do in public might be misinterpreted as blasphemy.
Nathan Harper Well, thank you, Don, for, Clearing that up, that really helps us to understand the pressure that our brothers and sisters are faced with. Something that is really not even on our, on our radars. And now it is. And so we know how to be praying a little bit more specifically for them in Pakistan. And let me ask this as a follow up really about follow up if you will. So let's say a listener to one of the radio programs that you guys help facilitate and train and lean into, maybe they do respond with some curiosity or some interest and tell me more about Jesus. How does follow up from a radio program like that happen?
Don Shank It happens. A lot of it is now happening online because more and more people are using text Messaging or WhatsApp and some of these messaging apps and even a lot of these programs are on social media. So the interaction is taken on there. So there is a written kind of a. Develop a relationship, a communication relationship there. But it does progress to in person connections and what we call seekers conferences where some curious listeners or those who really seem to be willing to engage are invited to gather for a time of teaching and serious question and answer time. So there is that personal element. And I often tell people that the media is sort of the tip of the iceberg.
The work on the ground is the meat m of what we're doing around the world to help people to embrace the message they're hearing and understand what it means to be a follower of Jesus, to really understand the Christian faith.
Bert Harper A thing that really because I see this happen in other religions, not just in difficult places, but even here, someone that does start asking these questions and they begin to respond, maybe Internet or they may have known a believer and they go to them and they talk. If this person comes to Christ and becomes a follower of Christ, is he disowned by the immediate family or is there. That's a tendency in all Muslim. But I didn't know if Pakistan was that severe or not.
When it was concerning family, how would they respond? I, I didn't know if you talked to anyone like that or heard of anything like that in Pakistan or not. Don?
Don Shank Yeah, that is a huge. Converting from Islam to Christianity is a huge risk. It carries with it the potential of being ostracized from the family. And even worse than that, that in itself can be interpreted as blasphemy. I don't know if that would legally be interpreted as blasphemy. But a, ah, Muslim would believe if someone from their family converted to Christianity they were committing blasphemy. And if they did not recant. Some families feel like it's their duty to actually kill that person. So the risk of death is there. And we have had, some listeners respond like they've gone into hiding because their family is after them because they're following Christ.
Nathan Harper So today we are speaking with Don Shank, who is with the Tide. You can check out their [email protected] we have several more minutes with Don.
Don, can you give us. You've kind of touched on it already at the beginning of this program, but can you maybe give us some specifics? What is some of the impact that the Tide is seeing that the gospel of Jesus Christ is making in Pakistan right now? What either numbers or maybe even a story or two, something that you are seeing as just God glorifying, just an impact that you're seeing.
Don Shank I'll just say, you know, we were talking about the Pashto language program just to share a little bit about that. You know, I gave a couple of negative responses there. There are also positive responses and a lot of that is on social media. They now have on the social media pages over 2,700 followers. And that's been a significant increase recently showing an impact and the, actual audience interactions. They had over 1,000 people either making a comment or liking their content. So there is, we're seeing a growing level of engagement to the programs that are posted on social media. And everybody has cell phones around the world. Everybody is on social media. We're finding that actually becoming a more impactful channel than radios. It depends. next door in India, we still have a much larger response to our shortwave radio broadcast there. We have, in a three month, every three month period, we have 4,500 to 5,000 people responding to the radio broadcast. But yeah, in Pakistan we're getting a, much higher response from the social media postings that we have
Bert Harper with the broadcast radio hours. Is it 247 or at, specific times? And the language, do they have different? I know how India is with their dialect. So many. Is the dialects in Pakistan as varied as it is in India? I know that's a compound question, but take a stab at it, Don. Whichever one you want to answer.
Don Shank Okay, I'll start with the number of languages. There's not as many languages in Pakistan, but there are a variety of languages. And some are much larger people groups, some are smaller people groups. But the, going back to the broadcast radio broadcasts actually in Pakistan right now, we don't have.
I think I'm speaking right. I, Double check with my partners. I think they have actually stopped broadcasting and are only posting on social media and distributing on handheld audio devices. These ones that are locked content, that the content can't be changed, but that allows people to go into a private place and listen quietly out of the public to teaching programs. But in places like India next Door, where we are broadcasting, that is usually, just on a set time schedule. So they know every week what time the program's coming on.
Nathan Harper It's good to hear that you guys are responsive to what the needs are of the people on the ground, where there needs to be kind of a ongoing set program and people can tune in to the radio program or maybe keep it in a private setting. That's good to hear that you guys are flexible in that way. Speaking of flexibility, the Tide does a lot of different things. How can our listeners learn more?
I know we want to send them to the tide.org but when they go there, there's ways to get involved, whether it's prayer or giving. But there's other things that you guys are involved in. Can you tell us a little bit about one or two of those, ways that our listeners might be involved with the Tithes ministry?
Don Shank Certainly. You have mentioned, being a prayer partner, financial partner. That's huge for the ministry. There's also opportunities to volunteer as an advocate for the Tide. We're looking to get people in different communities, congregations, being somebody who can help share about the Tide ministry. Share prayer requests. Share.
When we have events going on, we do an annual race to share the gospel, which when we do that in the spring, it's an in person event, but then it is also a virtual event. So anybody, anytime throughout the year can go online and sign up to do one of our races. And it's a unique experience where you do it at your own pace, however you want, but it'll take you around a route around a certain country with prayer points. It's fun to do, but that's a way to engage and to learn more about the countries where we're ministering and to have specific prayer points there. For that. We do coordinate some promotion events called Taste of the Tide. we also have something here called have you heard where we're asking people here in the US Bring spiritual elements into your everyday conversations. Instead of asking people about their favorite sports, about their work, ask how they are spiritually and what are their beliefs, where are they headed, what do they believe? And if they are a believer, rejoice with them. If they are not, share the Gospel with them.
This is what the Tide exists to do to tell people about Jesus.
Bert Harper Amen. We were talking about the countries Asia and Africa. Those are the two main places you will find the tide ministries operating. Am I right there, Don?
Don Shank You are correct. We do have a presence in the Balkan region. So we do have. We started in Albanian, Kosovo. We're now in the Republic of North Macedonia, have programming in Serbia.
Now looking to go into all the former Yugoslavia countries. So we are trying to expand in that area. But currently, yeah, our. Our largest presence is in Africa and Asia, mostly South Asia, but reaching also into Central Asia.
Nathan Harper So, Don, I was just checking out the website thetide.org and there's a prayer guide already out for this coming winter. I'm not sure where you're listening from today, but where I'm recording, from, it's not winter yet. However we can.
Bert Harper It's still summer where we are.
Nathan Harper Yeah, it's still pretty warm, honestly. But, there's a day. There's a day set aside to pray for Pakistan. Can I just read that? And this will be a good way our listeners can begin praying to join what the tide is doing, what God is already doing, how the gospel is being carried out throughout Pakistan. Let me just read this for us as a prayer point. He says, pray for our boots on the ground partners who share these thoughts in a recent report. We have now begun sharing stories from the Old Testament with the hope that these narratives will help build trust within the Pashtun community. Since many of these stories are also found in Islamic teachings, we believe this shared familiarity can serve as a bridge to connect with them and foster greater openness toward the Christian message. So our prayer point is to ask God to open the heart and mind of each listener today.
Bert Harper Wow. When I hear that, Don, the first thing that came to my mind was Paul in Athens walking through the streets.
He is looking for something, a commonality, and it was to the unknown God. So this relationship of having something in common to launch from really is effective, isn't it?
Don Shank And that's why we don't speak against other religions, but to find if there is comm. Commonality and to lead them down from that path of commonality into the light of Christ.
Bert Harper Well, we're going to be praying for this, Nathan. And what we're hearing and what we're seeing, and we've talked to people who are involved in international missions around the world, is the gospel of Jesus Christ is greater than. And that's the joy we have that we can share Christ. Because honestly, Nathan, I want you to respond. Christ stands alone, doesn't he?
Nathan Harper Absolutely. You don't have to call attention to any faults. You don't have to point to the darkness. Right? You just lift up Jesus and he will do the drawing of all peoples to himself.
And so that's our job. Point to Jesus, make much of Jesus. And I thank you, Don, for leading the way in that.
Don Shank Thank you. It's a huge support base that keeps the Tithe ministry going. They deserve the thanks more than me.
Bert Harper Again, thank you, Don. Thank you, Nathan. And we pray that you who are listening would know that you can be involved in missions by praying, by giving. And one of those ministries is the Tide ministries.
Thank you again for listening and let's stay on mission with God.
How are Christians sharing the gospel in places where faith can carry serious personal risk? On this episode of Exploring Missions, host Bert Harper and co-host Nathan talk with Don Shank, executive director of The Tide, about the ministry’s work equipping local believers to share the message of Jesus in their own languages and cultural contexts.
Shank describes his recent visit to Pakistan, where he attended a large evangelistic gathering and met with students at a Bible school exploring media training. He explains how Christians can legally practice their faith there, while blasphemy laws and the possibility of family rejection or violence create real risks for those who share their beliefs or convert from Islam.
The conversation explores how The Tide’s partners use social media, messaging apps, and private audio devices to connect with listeners and continue conversations in person. Shank also shares encouraging signs of growing engagement, including thousands of social media followers, and explains how listeners can support the work through prayer, giving, advocacy, and the ministry’s “Race to Share the Gospel.”
Hear how local believers build trust, find points of common ground, and keep pointing people to Jesus. The episode closes with a practical invitation to pray for open hearts in Pakistan and to stay on mission—at home and around the world.
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