Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Monday morning, and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here wanted to read to you from Second Corinthians, chapter 4. The apostle Paul says, therefore, since we have this ministry, as we receive mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel, of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. We want to talk about, the blindness that we see in our world today over so many people. And that is the blindness known as Islam. Islam blinds the minds of the unbelieving. they believe so many with all their heart, something that is not true, that it's not real, that is not going to bring them to paradise, but is going to take them down. Just, as we were, informed yesterday by, my good friend Dr. Dean. he came to first baptist text arcana, and he talked to us about Islam. He, by his own right, would be known, as an Islam scholar. He teaches on Islam. He's been to many Islamic countries. He was, a missionary for many, many years in an Islamic country. He knows a lot about this subject. And he said, you know, it's not unlike how it is with the Jews because as Paul wrote In Romans chapter 10, the Jews, they had the oracles of God, but they pursued a, right relationship with God through works. And, we can't get saved through works. We only get saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. So, Dr. Dean, welcome to the program today. I appreciate you, my friend.

Dr. Dean: Thank you. Great to be with you.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. We had a great Sunday yesterday as, you preached for us at First Baptist Texarkana and then we had a Q and A time. And I believe you used that Second Corinthians, chapter four in your presentation because it's really true. Their minds are blinded. And if we're going to reach people, it doesn't matter what they believe we're called to reach them with the gospel. And you have had the unique ministry of really targeting and focusing in on so many that believe the, the lies of Islam. And so that's a little unique as opposed to just going across the street and talking to your neighbor who doesn't really believe anything.

Dr. Dean: That's right. That's right. And so they truly think they do believe the truth and that we're in error. but we believe the Bible and what the Bible teaches. And if you don't believe the gospel of grace through Jesus Christ, you're blind and you are going in the wrong direction. Yes.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And so I like the way you set it up to where it really, in the big scheme of things, the 30,000 foot view, it's no different than Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism. It's the same kind of lie, just in different clothing, so to speak.

Dr. Dean: That's correct. Anything that argues for something other than the gospel and salvation by faith and the grace Jesus did, yeah, it's a lie. It's leading you in the wrong direction no matter what it is.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And so, Dean, as you know, you had shared last night, grew up Methodist, but it was, ah, maybe not a church that really preached the gospel. It was just kind of, you know, do better and you know, God loves you and that kind of thing. in Christianity we have so many churches that don't preach the gospel. I would say the majority of churches that call themselves Christians don't preach the gospel.

Dr. Dean: Exactly. It's a cultural Christianity. It's just a. Be a nice person. our culture is Christian, so you're automatically Christian. There's no idea of this. Born again, filled with the Holy Spirit and only doing good works that count if you have the Holy Spirit. So it's sad that we even have churches who would not preach the gospel and be as lost people, be as lost as whether they're a Muslim or not. They, they're cultural Christians, not born again. They're lost.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, we had a time last night of, you and I sat down and we had a good crowd here last night. 350, 400 people, whatever it was. But we, were asking. I was asking questions, and we took questions from the crowd. And then we asked people. We said, now text in if you want to text in your questions. Some people aren't comfortable getting up in front of a big group and asking their question. And so we had a lot of text questions that we didn't get to, but because we had so many questions from the floor. But, one of the questions, and Dean, you're really good at this. people don't understand Islam. They kind of look at it as a monolith. If you're Islamic, everyone believes the same thing. And that's not true, is it?

Dr. Dean: No, it's not true. There are different streams, just like we'd have. You know, people think we're all one Baptist. There are 14 different Baptist denominations in America. Islam has streams. The main are the Sunni and the Shia, which are very different. But then you have Sufi. And then even under each of those, you have various streams of Islam. So, where I was in Central Asia, they would describe a certain kind of Islam, and they'd say, we are not like. And then they would compare themselves to other streams. They'd say, we're not like that. So I learned you've got to let that person you're talking to describe their Islam, and validate. That's what Islam is for them, and not put them all in the same box.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Would they all. All those different streams, would they all adhere to the five pillars?

Dr. Dean: Yes. They would all know they're supposed to do the five pillars. Yes. And they would all. You remember I spoke of two untouchables. They would all, honor Muhammad in the Quran. Those are common. But that's core. That's core. But we could say even in Christianity, Jesus and the Bible, every. Even Mormons and, you know, whatever would say, yes, Jesus in the Bible. But then you bury. Burrow on down. You start to find the difference.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. and so when Islam began

Dr. Dean: 612, 610. well, it began when Muhammad fled for his life from, Mecca. He gathered. That's the first gathering of a community of believers. And they consider that the beginning of Islam when he and the community fled and eventually found their way to Medina. So it's roughly. He was in his 40s then. He was born in 570. So about 610. Around. About 610 to 613 is when it began.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So I read a book way back when, from a guy named Anish Sharosh. I don't know if you're familiar with him. I think he was an Egyptian guy. But he said in the book, when Muhammad had the vision and he was visited by an angel, that he went home to his wife. I don't know which one it was, but he said, I don't know if this was an angel or a demon. And she said, you're a good man. It had to be an angel. That is a true.

Dr. Dean: Yes, that's correct. Yes, that's correct. he did. He wasn't sure if this was from God or not, but she affirmed him. It's his. His first wife, Khadija, who was older than.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Older.

Dr. Dean: Yeah, older and a very prominent business lady. But she had. He had been a manager of some of her business, dealings. But she was convinced, and some of the. His close friends were convinced. He is anointed. He, this is from God, not. Not from, a demonic source or anything. They convinced him and he was all in after that. But also, I need to backtrack and say Muslims will say Islam began with Adam and Eve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.

Dr. Dean: They will say it's a continuation of Judaism and then eventually Christianity. But Judaism and Christianity lost their way and Muhammad fixed everything. And the, Quran and Islam brings us back to proper monotheism. So we say it began in 600 with Muhammad in the community. But ultimately they'll say it. No, it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, well, that's quite a leap to try and say that happened. So for us, we would look at that and say, your religion wasn't even here. 609 AD, if you go to Mecca and Medina, they don't have anything like that.

Dr. Dean: No. There was polytheism. So Mecca was covered. They followed idols according to the lunar calendar. 360 idols, one for each day. And it was actually very profitable. People would make pilgrims to go and worship these idols and sacrifice to them. So it was a good place to do business.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So they didn't have the cabal then. The, the big.

Dr. Dean: They. They had it. But around it was. It wasn't prominent. Around it was all these idols.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.

Dr. Dean: And Muhammad's uncle was actually the custodian of that area to keep it clean and, and to make sure that there was Cabal.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Cabal.

Dr. Dean: Kaba. Kaba in English. K, double A, B, A.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.

Dr. Dean: And Muhammad helped his uncle. So he saw all this idol worship growing up, and it disturbed him. And he felt. He felt this can't be right.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, and in his travels, he was hearing from Jews, he was hearing from Christians, and so he'd Pick up like, yes.

Dr. Dean: The sad thing is that Christianity wasn't in a good place at that time.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.

Dr. Dean: And so he met, monks, he met, sages, Jews and Christians who exposed him to monotheism. And that really created an impression on him that these people talk about a God you can't describe. And if there's really a God, he's got to be above everything and beyond our imagination. And that, I think that, rang, a bell with him. And then he thought, yes, those idols can't be right, but this God they talk about. And he. His trading caravans took him all the way to Jerusalem, because when he got that vision of the Quran, when the angels, supposedly Micah and Gabriel, took him to hear the Quran in heaven, he was in Jerusalem under that Dome of the Rock Mosque. There's a cave under there. And he was in that cave, and that's where he got the full Quran in one night. It's about the length of the NewSong Testament. And he heard it all in one shot in one night. That's why that's the third most important site in Islam and why Muslims will defend that with their lives. Because that's where Muhammad got the Quran the first time.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. So it's interesting, Dean, when we think about eschatology and how the Temple, the Third Temple, is going to be built during the tribulation period or be in service during the tribulation period. It's like, okay, what happens to the Dome of the Rock? Is it hit by a meteor?

Dr. Dean: I mean, yeah, yeah. Who knows, right? Because you got the three great monotheistic religions that all worship right there. And, yeah, that's a whole study on itself just to understand all that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, I did have Jeff Kinley on the program. He thinks Ezekiel 38 and 39, that Islam gets so decimated by the Lord when they come after Israel that they're not in a position to fight. And then Israel can rebuild the temple there because.

Dr. Dean: Yeah, he. He's a better scholar than I am of that time. You, Dr. Patterson has his own ideas, too, based on a passage in, Isaiah about talking about a highway of peace that goes from Egypt all the way up through Syria and Damascus through the Middle east. And we've never seen that highway of peace. Right. So is that something that. How is that symbolic? Is it actually going to happen? You know, this is the. All the interpretations people have, so I will yield to those scholars.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Okay. I just thought about this, Dean. So as we talk about those hurdles, when you talk to an individual Muslim. So I mentioned last night, I said we talk about Islam. I'm, not talking about your mother. I'm talking about Islam. This philosophy, this religion. Then you have individual Muslims that believe this. We care for them. We, pull the veil back on. Islam is not from God. And anything not from God, it's going to come from either God or the devil, or the flesh. And both of those things are involved, the flesh and the devil. With Islam, especially when you think about what their paradise is. It's all fleshly, lustful things, 72 virgins and things like that. But now a, big hurdle is the Trinity. And it dawned on me with Jews is a big hurdle.

Dr. Dean: The Trinity, Yeah, as far as I know. With Jews. Well, yes and no. not the same hurdle, I think, as it is for Muslims. But of course the shema would be like the testimony in Islam. Right? The shema. And we know how important in Deuteronomy 6 the Shema is because they supposed to tie it on their heads. The Lord is one. Yes. So that's a big deal. So, I'm also not as much of an expert on the Jewish theology, but I think that is definitely an issue. But the Trinity, that's a hurdle.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, well, I mean, they killed Jesus because he claimed to be the son of God. And you blaspheme.

Dr. Dean: Yeah, exactly.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You can't be. God doesn't have a son in their theology. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here, and I'm talking to my friend Dr. Dean about, Islam pulling the veil back. Because the Bible says if our gospel is veiled, it is to those who are perishing. We don't want people to perish, so we want to speak the truth and speak it in love. You're listening to Real Truth for today on American Family Radio. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program, Pastor Jeff. Here talking to my friend Dr. Dean. We're talking about the subject of Islam, pulling the veil off of Islam so we can see it for what it really is. the Muslims are not our enemy. They're our mission field. But Islam is an enemy. It's an enemy that enslaves people. It's an enemy that has come to, the west and is coming to here in America, and it wants to take over. it is the devil's religion that. That enslaves people and deceives people. And, it is, as we shared yesterday, totally incompatible with the Constitution of the United States of America. It's incompatible with freedom. And, Dean, you made that clear yesterday. Islam means submission. It has nothing to do with freedom.

Dr. Dean: Yeah, they would say there's freedom within the box that you live in. So they're going to make a box which they would call Sharia law. This is the box. Like, no alcohol. You know, women dress modestly to much more strict prohibitions. And they say as long as you live in that box, then you have freedom. But, for example, you have no freedom to consider another religion. That's the hardest one. Like if a young Muslim man or woman thinks, well, I'd like to think through whether I do believe this faith or not. they don't have that freedom. Their. Their parents would go crazy. I was in, Central Asia two years ago and in a taxi talking to a guy, and he was kind of suspicious of us. And he said, I don't like these Americans coming here trying to convert us from Islam. I said, well, people need that. Don't you think people need freedom? He said, oh, yes. No one should force religion on us. You should have freedom. I said, yeah, I believe that even my children need to have freedom. I want them to be Christians, but they need to have freedom. He said, oh, no, not your family. Oh, no. He said, not my children. They may not. They have no freedom to leave Islam. They must be Muslims. I said, but don't you want them to think about it themselves and really choose for themselves? He said, oh, no, no, no, no. My children have no choice. They must be Muslim. And there's the difficulty, that freedom doesn't exist. So they're free to do things, but only within a box.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so what, what do you think motivates that, Dean? They've been t birth that, if they defect, they're going to hell. if their children defect, they're going to. It's just, it's kind of. I know you said, honor shame, but the fear of hell is a big driver, is it not?

Dr. Dean: Yes, yes. And so that they would go to hell. But it's also a, bad mark against you as a parent. You know, if it's a workspace religion, this is a big negative that your child left the faith. What kind of parent were you? how could you have brought them up and they abandoned the faith. That's a huge negative against you. And so they are community based cultures in America. Individual makes decisions. Most of Islam is not like that. It's communal. So, an individual decision affects the whole community. So when an individual leaves Islam, it's not just them leaving Islam, they are affecting that, their whole community. And this shame for that family on the street, on anyone who finds out that that person left Islam, the shame is immense. It's the highest shame that they left that. So.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And they can't cover that up. Like you said, you caught that guy's son drunk and he said, that wasn't my son.

Dr. Dean: Ah, yeah. So they'll try. Typically they'll expel them. They have to leave the city and go somewhere where people won't meet them, won't hear about it. And we found it took about three years before people eventually just sort of forgot that that had happened. And then they could quietly try to have a relationship with the family again. But the shame was so high, it would take a lot of time.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. okay, so we had questions last night. Ah, a Q and a time with Dr. Dean. And, these are the questions we didn't get to. And so, here's the first question. And it says, why does it seem the expansion to the US From Islam? Why, did it take so long? And when did the law after Muhammad's death truly begin?

Dr. Dean: so they codified the law after he died. He was illiterate, so they realized we need to write down, what he said. Now, when he quoted the Quran, people like Allie, one of his main followers, wrote the Quran down. But there were so many versions of it that eventually a leader after him Called Umar said we can't have these various versions, we need to codify one. So they collected all the scraps and recordings of the Quran and codified one only version which they say has lasted until today. And they say that's the strength and proof of, of the Quran.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Only in Arabic.

Dr. Dean: Only in Arabic. Only in Arabic.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So translations in English are not really the Quran?

Dr. Dean: No, the first page will say this is not the Quran but a translation of the Quran only in Arabic. And when it's in Arabic it is actually physically even God's word. So if you go to a mosque, they'll give you an English translation of the Quran as a gift. But if you ask them, could, could I see an Arabic version? Could I hold an Arabic version? They're probably not going to let you do that because even that physical Arabic language copy that is the Quran and you are an unbeliever, you shouldn't touch that. So they codified it. Our argument for the Bible is that all these various texts by Zantian Alexandria and Western texts with many copies actually strengthen the evidence for the Bible. Quran's opposite. No, there are no variations. There's only one codified one. So that that's a big deal. And then they did, they did understand that as the west was expanding and colonizing the world, it was in the 70s and I can't remember the exact year when they came together and said as Islam we need to penetrate the West. So we do need to translate the Quran into Western languages. We do need to start sending students, doctors, business people, all kinds of things. Let's send our people to the west and let Islam just begin to find its way into the societies of the West. And so the real strong movement for that really came out of the 70s.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know Dean, I think that there's probably this perception among a lot of people in America that Muslims aren't necessarily very educated or very intelligent because of the oppression and the oppressive society of. But that's not the case. A lot of them are doctors and.

Dr. Dean: Absolutely. in our dark, so called dark ages, Christianity was more the golden age of Islam. You think of what we study. When you study mathematics, you study something called algebra. Right. Muslim mathematicians came up with algebra. mathematics is massive in Islam. In fact, numbers are huge. They are much bigger on math and numbers than we ever are. Think of a, ah, pharmacy. Alchemy. Alchemy is also an Islamic thing. So we understanding God's common grace and the way that he's put the image in everybody that man can produce intelligent things. So they had great schools of learning pushing forward academia at times when we didn't, we don't document that in the west because that's not our history. Right. And they developed great schools of learning. ah, the, the big one is Al Azhar University in Egypt has an incredible legacy. I think the first universe recorded university was in Morocco. So yeah, they have a legacy of, of academic academia and are trying to re, establish that again, with universities in the Middle east and so on.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, when you have the, the radical Muslims that are blowing themselves up and doing the things that, that you know, we've all seen happen, it really diminishes. Like you guys are Neanderthal, you know, you're cavemen, who would do this, you're not very educated, smart, you know, that kind of thing. Because no rational person would do this stuff.

Dr. Dean: Yes, exactly. And so a lot of them, it's hard for them because a lot of them would also say that. But how do you speak against a fellow Muslim?

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Dr. Dean: You know, so, so we're against that, but we can't make too big a

Pastor Jeff Schreve: deal of it because we're on the same team.

Dr. Dean: Because we're supposed to be on the same team.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Dr. Dean: You know, it was like after 911 there was some sympathy and there were some people who, more than an individual would say it. But, but I was intrigued. After 911 where were the huge voices, right, that officially said our country condemns that and we're against that. But they were in a quandary because we don't agree with that. We don't think what Bin Laden did was right. But how do we speak against someone who's supposed to be a brother in the faith?

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so Bin Laden was a Sunni.

Dr. Dean: He was a Sunni of the Wahhabi sect. Yes. Which was very much influenced by Muslim Brotherhood. there was a, some radicals who were riding, who got into trouble and actually arrested in Egypt for pushing too radical an agenda. But, but they influenced Osama bin Laden. Others to say, unless you follow this very strict Islam that goes back to Muhammad's time, Muhammad, they would say the best time in the world was when Muhammad lived. We need to re establish that kind of Islam. And anyone who's against that is an enemy, whether they are liberal Muslims or Muslims who, who are, who don't agree with what we're doing, then they're part of the enemy. It was us and them. And that was the big agenda he pushed. And then of course America setting up military bases on holy land in Saudi Arabia was like, pushing that over the top. Like, how. How were we allowing these infidels to. To set up military bases on our holy land? For him? That was inexcusable.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So Saudi, because they have. They have the Kaaba, that. That is the place everybody goes. Yeah. They're kind of the leaders of Islam

Dr. Dean: across the world in that sense. In Sunni, yes. For Shia, no. So Iran and the Shia.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: The Shia still have to come to Mecca.

Dr. Dean: They do. They do have to come. And it's controversial because the Shia in Iran are often saying Mecca needs to be taken away from the Saudis. Like, it needs to. Like the vet. It needs to become like the Vatican, almost its own state led by an alliance of Muslim countries who control it. But Saudi will never allow that. They. They control it. And most Sunnis are fine with it because Saudi Arabia does try to accommodate all Muslims. They allocate a quota for Shia to come and do the pilgrimage. But there's a lot of tension with the Shia.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So what is life like for a Christian in Saudi? because they don't necessarily hate Americans, right?

Dr. Dean: No. On a political level and all of that. No. In fact, Saudis pretty much, I would say, like Americans. The Saudis I meet, are very friendly and like America, but again, their country is holy. And so it's very tricky. It's illegal to be a Christian there. And so the hardest thing, if anyone in Saudi Arabia does leave Islam, whether for Christianity or just for atheism, whatever, they pretty much have to leave. They can't stay there anymore.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: They're not going to be killed. Or they would be killed.

Dr. Dean: They would be. Now, different people might have different opinions on whether that would happen. But, if you talk to anybody that say, yeah, there's an honor, it's illegal to leave Islam if you are a Muslim. Arab, Muslim in Saudi Arabia, you may not leave Islam.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so if Christians travel to Saudi Arabia for business or for tourism. Yeah. And they share Christ, they're going to be imprisoned or ushered out.

Dr. Dean: If you have an American passport, you're going to probably be probably warned. Gordon said, look, you don't understand. This is the heart of Islam. We don't want you talking about that here. Please don't do that. And if you do it again, you'll get stamped in your passport. You're not coming back. but they're not going to. It'll be very rare. Unless they trump up some charges against you. It'd be rare for them to physically hurt You. Because that's so politically charged. If they hurt an American, that just does not look good. So the likelihood is you'll be expelled. You're on a list.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So if you'd. If you did the Matthew 1, 2, 3 in Saudi where you said, hey, I have a name.

Dr. Dean: So you could. You could. And we'll see if we can. You could. In this way, where it is in a private conversation in a home, and it's a result of a natural conversation. So if they're talking, they telling you what they believe, you're telling them what you believe, and you use that. A method like that, to share the gospel. And they. They're not offended. Like, oh, you just try to come in here and force me. But they hosted you, and it was just a natural thing to talk about.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.

Dr. Dean: and you just shared. Because they expect you to be a Christian. If you're not a Muslim, they are. Okay. You're from America. You're a Christian.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.

Dr. Dean: So you're talking about your faith. So then it's defined ways, like Matthew 1, 2, 3, to actually share the gospel with them. But if you knocked on a door and said, hey, I'm here to tell you about. No, that would be completely unacceptable.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So there's zero underground church in Saudi.

Dr. Dean: I'm not going to say that. Right. I don't.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: But it's so underground that we don't even talk about it.

Dr. Dean: Yes. Okay. Yes.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. Because we know in other Muslims, especially Iran, you. You had shared yesterday a million. Supposedly a million believers.

Dr. Dean: Yes. Yes. All have to exist in little house groups or little online communities. yeah, very.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: But very marked, by a deep love and appreciation and gratitude for Jesus.

Dr. Dean: Oh, my goodness. Yes. You meet one of them. It's so refreshing. It's so. Wow. They can't believe that they have now found the truth. Yes. I said they become evangelists.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Amen. Well, as we shared yesterday, Muslims, really, the Muslim religion is not a relationship with God.

Dr. Dean: No, not like we do. To call him Father, to be able to get close to him, to say, I have a friend in Jesus.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: No, nothing like that.

Dr. Dean: He's too high and holy and beyond that kind of a relationship. Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here on American Family Radio. I'm talking to my good friend Dr. Dean. We're talking about the religion of Islam and how it blinds the minds of the unbelieving. And when we come back, we have more questions, so don't go away.

 : If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastorjeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Hey, I wanted to let you know, where we are on the Truth for Youth Bible. We had Truth for Youth Bible Week last week on American Family Radio. And our goal was 65,000 to get, 65,000 Bibles out and into the hands of students. And as of 8:00pm last night, the number was 65,250 Bibles, given away. So that is a great, great praise, thanks for your part, that you had in that. And let's pray that God uses those Bibles as the students give them to friends and the friends read them and come, to know Christ. As result, we're talking to Dr. Dean and we're talking about the subject of Islam. And So we had Dr. Dean here yesterday. He preached in the morning service at First Baptist Text Arcana, talking about Romans, chapter 10 and how, there is Christianity and there is everything else a religion of works. And Islam is a religion of works. As Judaism, Old Testament Judaism became a religion of works. It wasn't set up a religion of works, but it became that when Jesus came, and walked the earth, that's what they believed in. Judaism was all about works and Hinduism. Every other religion, every cult is all works based. Christianity is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. And the devil, we have to give the devil his due. He's done a good job in blinding the eyes of the unbelieving. And our job is to pierce through the darkness and speak the truth in love. Okay, so Dean, we had all these questions last night and here's a question. Our Christian high school students, particularly some of the boys, have Islamic friends at their school. They say the Islamic boys are just like us. Their beliefs are not that different. They really like us. How can Christian parents and Christian teachers guide them appropriately?

Dr. Dean: So one part I like about that is the idea that they like us. Let's be friends. Let's not, be enemies, shut down on them, be friends. Great. But, but like I said in this, in, in the message yesterday, the verses in the Quran are very clear. There is no trinity. Jesus did not die and rise again. We were fooled into believing that man does not have original sin that needs somebody to save him from his sins. If, if it outwardly denies that that's the core. Without that, that we are born sinners that need the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. To save us. And that Jesus is God, part of a trinity, you take that away. We don't have our faith. Our faith is gone. Christianity is meaningless. Right. So it denied. Directly denies that. Those verses I shared from the Quran directly deny that. So we can say, are they human beings that deserve dignity because God created them and they have God's image in them. And even people who are lost with God's image can do good things. It's not going to be the norm of their life. But that's God's common grace. Yes. So they deserve the gospel just like anybody else. But are we the same? No, we are not.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, Dean, I think too, what's hard for people is when you see the things. When you know about the suicide bombers and you see the things that are done and the terrorist acts and, you know, Allahu Akbar when they're killing people, it's hard not to lump everybody in that category. And then you're not Islamophobic, but you're just kind of wise. Like, okay, I get if there are a bunch of Middle Easterners on my airplane, there's a part of me that's going to be a little bit sensitive to that because, like, okay, because other religions don't do that, but that one does.

Dr. Dean: Yeah. And so that's where you have to. You've really got to get your theology of God's sovereignty. Right. We lived in a city of 2 million Muslims for 14 years. And there was no time when we thought, oh, should we. Has God lost control of this situation? Should we leave? And actually, as I shared after 9, 11, many, many, many came up to me and said, we're so sorry. that should never have happened. we disagree with that form of Islam. And I got on airplanes and trains and taxis and buses packed with Muslims every day. And I was like, okay, God.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: But they would be. They would be not inclined to blow up their own. They're gonna go to.

Dr. Dean: Unless it's a Sunni Shia conflict. because we don't see it on the news so much. But there's blowings up happening in Pakistan, in Afghanistan places all the time in conflict. Because it's lost people in conflict with lost people. Right. So, but in terms of. Yeah, if they came to the west and were on a plane, I think that's why we have the safeguards we have and the security screenings and all of that type of stuff. And I think governments have to be vigilant about that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. Do they have that in Muslim countries? If I'm going to get on A plane in Saudi. Am I going to go through all the.

Dr. Dean: Yes. Okay. Yes, we had all the. All of that is the same.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Have you been to Saudi Arabia? No. Okay. I did. I had a friend. This was years ago. I had a friend that worked for Aramco in Saudi Arabia. And he said, as Saudi Arabia, you can walk down Main street at 2 o' clock in the morning and you're not concerned about anybody attacking you or robbing you or any. Because the punishment is severe. Yeah. so there is a sense that. Okay, well, there's not a lot of crime here.

Dr. Dean: Yeah, yeah. In places like that. Again, remember, that box of control is tight. In. In Sharia law, you steal, they cut your hand off. so where we were in Central Asia, there was less of that. I felt I would travel to the airport to pick up people in the middle of the night and feel fine. But there were parts of the city I would not go. Just like there are parts of cities in the middle of the night in America I wouldn't go. but that's not, not religious crime as just regular crime. People just looking for an opportunity to steal.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, now what's the. We hear so much like in Germany that these girls are being raped and gang raped and things like that. Is that not a crime?

Dr. Dean: In Islam, it would be a crime. So I think it's how you interpret the laws. So some of them will try and justify that as doing it in the name of Islam. But I think most Islamic scholars and leaders would say, you can't do that. That's an aberration. You can't say, you can't justify that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So I've heard in Iran, when they, they, if somebody is going against the government or doing something they don't like, especially a woman, that they will, they will take her before they kill her, they'll rape her so she's going to be unclean and ensure her eternity in hell. That kind of thing. is that just sensationalized?

Dr. Dean: I think so. I mean, you know, we. You're going to have extremes of abuse all the time. you know, like. And sadly, some of our people have done to some military prisoners. Well, you take an isolated case and generalize that. That's not. Right now in Iran, I don't. I mean, they, they're very harsh about like these protesters they're hanging every week. They seem to hang somebody who was a protester. That's just wrong. in certain cases, would they also rape? Yeah, probably. But I wouldn't generalize it. I think they are the ultimate harsh of hanging someone. Yes. But rape along the way, I'm not sure that would be standard.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so we see. I mentioned this to you yesterday. We see that, in America, it seems like you have the democratic socialist wing of the Democrat Party, which is, moving toward just full blown communism. And they're combining with the Islamists to have these candidates, political candidates. We have the guy running for senator, in Michigan, we have Zoram Mamdani, the mayor of the largest city in America, NewSong York City. And that's a weird combination of them coming together. But, I've always stated that, you know, they come together. The enemy of the enemy is my friend. So they topple the man, so to speak. They topple America. They turn it into a communist country, but it's an Islamic communist country. And if you have to pit the Islamists versus the Marxists, I think the Islamists win on that battle.

Dr. Dean: Yeah. I don't. I don't understand that partnership. I just don't see how they seem polar opposites. and so how they. I think it's the enemy of the enemy is my friend. I think it'll be interesting to see because the young people of the world, control is not a good word, to say I need to have authority over you. There's no young person who wants to hear that. So I think that would be a challenge to Islam, winning that battle. But even where I come, if you look at Africa, South Africa, you had some of that combination of communism trying to come on the liberation, and you would have thought communism would have won, but they didn't. they were used. Communism was used.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Dr. Dean: And I would say my opinion is that Islam is using democratic socialism and democratic socialism is using Islam.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.

Dr. Dean: They are not forging this happy partnership that will sail us into a happy future. I don't believe that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: No. Yeah, it's an evil combo that's going to turn on itself and then who's going to win? I think the Muslims will win because they'll. Like, in Iran, you can beat them almost to death and they're still fighting. I mean, it's like, unless you cut the head off the snake, he's going to keep biting you.

Dr. Dean: Yeah. I think my opinion is, they are in the death rows, they are fighting, they're in a corner, they know the end's coming. They just trying to lash out at it. They are trying to delay their demise.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: M. Okay, the difference here is one of the questions Dean from last night Sunnis and Shias. What's the main difference between those two?

Dr. Dean: So the main difference is who leads Islam. When Muhammad dies, his sons all die young. he only leaves daughters. And at that point, a woman can't lead Islam or leave in. I would say now, but. So who, who becomes the next leader of Islam? And the Sunnis say it's a spiritual decision who's most spiritually qualified to be the next leader. And they choose, Abu Bakr, who's the father of Muhammad's youngest wife, and he becomes the Sunni leader. But the Shia say it's got to be a bloodline. You know, the Shia leaders wear those turbans. So if they wear a black turban, they have Muhammad's blood in them. If you don't, you wear a white turban. So the ultimate ayatollah in Iran has to have a black turban. He has to have Muhammad's blood. So. But now there's no male heir but Allie, one of Muhammad's devoted followers. Allie marries one of Muhammad's daughters. Okay, which means, which means the bloodline will come through them. Therefore, Allie is qualified to be the next leader, okay, because his bloodline will carry on Muhammad's bloodline. And so the split develops and it continues. And the, the rift gets irreparable when some. When the Sunnis martyr, Hussein, one of the. One of the leaders in the line of the Shia, he's martyred. And so the Shia every. Remember that. They actually whip themselves, the men, and remember his death, his great martyrdom by the Sunnis. So that rift now, it'll never heal. That break will never heal.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So if you had the whole world Muslim, the Muslims would fight among themselves, just like Iran and Iraq were constantly fighting among themselves.

Dr. Dean: Yes, because you got Shia and Sunni always.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: She is not going away.

Dr. Dean: Doesn't appear to go away. I don't know. When Iran, When Iran finally falls and Islam loses its influence there, it'll be interesting to see what will happen to Shia. Will it need to quietly just become a religion in the background, a stream of Islam in the background, because it's now lost its military might? it's going to be interesting to see.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So a guy like Osama bin Laden wouldn't have aligned with the Shia?

Dr. Dean: Not at all. Not at all.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: But the Shia would have liked what he did.

Dr. Dean: they would have liked what he did to the US but they still wouldn't have supported him theologically. Uh-huh. They still wouldn't have agreed with what

Pastor Jeff Schreve: he believed theologically okay, here's a question, Dean. How can we stand up for our youth? They are the targets and are getting recruited by Muslims.

Dr. Dean: Okay. yeah, getting recruited would be interesting. the only ones I see that are being recruited, and I don't know everything, but the ones I see are a lot of the youth who grow up in a single parent home without a father figure. The Muslims are very good about appealing to them and saying, you don't have a father. Come to the mosque. We'll offer you that father figure you need.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And it's male dominated, so they male dominated.

Dr. Dean: so as a church, we need to recognize that. Do we have homes? I think even outside of Islam, we need to say, do we have single parent homes? Especially where there's a mother trying to look after all her children and all the challenges with that. How do we offer fatherhood to those? you remember Tony Dungey? He started that kind of a movement, and I think we need to support that. So discipleship of our young people, being real fathers to young men and young women, I think that's a big part of the answer.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, we have about 30 seconds left. tell people how they can audit a course on Islam from the seminary. That would help them with this.

Dr. Dean: Yes. Go to swbts.edu. you can audit any course. Any course. Everyone is online. You can, sign up for any course and audit it. You don't have to do the assignments, just get the information and, yeah, pick a course and we'd love to have you.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Swbts. Edu. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Well, thank you for listening to Real True for today. I'll be with you again tomorrow. Hey, go out today. Shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you, and God will use you as his witness. God bless you.

2 Corinthians 4:3–4
“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

In this episode of Real Truth for Today, Pastor Jeff Schreve talks with Dr. Dean about Islam, its beliefs, history, and the challenges Christians face when sharing the gospel with Muslims. Drawing from 2 Corinthians 4, they discuss spiritual blindness and the importance of proclaiming the truth of the gospel with love.

Dr. Dean explains the differences between Sunni and Shia Islam, the origins and development of Islam, the role of the Quran and Sharia law, and the cultural pressures that can make it difficult for Muslims to question or leave their faith. They also discuss how Christians can build genuine friendships with Muslims while remaining faithful to the truth of Scripture.

The conversation addresses practical questions about witnessing to Muslims, Christian students interacting with Muslim friends, religious freedom, the underground church, and the importance of discipling young people. Pastor Jeff and Dr. Dean emphasize that Muslims should not be viewed as enemies, but as people who need to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The episode also highlights the Truth for Youth Bible outreach and encourages Christians to shine for Christ and share the truth wherever God has placed them.