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Jeff Chamblee: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Shirive, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Tuesday morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff here wanted to read to you a very familiar passage. First Thessalonians, chapter 4. Beginning in verse 13, Paul says, but we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, those who have died so that you will not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words. That is the classic raptured passage, the rapture of the church that precedes the actual return of Christ by seven years by the tribulation, the duration of the tribulation period. I believe that. And my guest believes that. my guest today is my friend Jeff Kinley. He's a prolific author, over 40 books. his latest book, is called A Visual Guide to the End Times. He has a book on the Book of the Revelation, God's grand finality, wrath, Grace and glory in the earth's last days. And then a book on the olivet discourse, Matthew 24:25, the end of the world according to Jesus of Nazareth. He is the host of the Prophecy Pro podcast and the King Is Coming TV program. And just an all around good guy, Jeff, Kinley, welcome to the program today.
Jeff Kinley: Jeff. Thanks so much, brother. Good to be back with you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I appreciate you coming on My friend, I know you are super busy, and I do want to say congratulations on your doctorate from Liberty University. A Doctor of Ministry. You got it in, the end of 2025, but you walked in 2026.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. As you know, it's a long process, but once you get it done, you're glad that you did it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So what was your thesis?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, my thesis was on the error of replacement theology. And so just explored that, because it's so prevalent today in the church and there's a lot of misinformation, a lot of ignorance about Israel. And so, that was kind of the impetus for me pursuing that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: that's a great topic. So, Jeff, that seems to be m more popular than ever today. And although there are many who say we're not replacement theologians, we're not replacing Israel with the church, but it sure sounds like that's what they're doing.
Jeff Kinley: Well, absolutely. When you look at just practically how people treat Israel, today, how many Christians look at Israel and they don't understand the whole purpose of Israel and what God's plan to do with Israel in the last days. And so all they see and hear is what they hear on the news and, the narrative that's being spun by the mainstream media and even some within the church. And so, once again, instead of getting our information straight from the Bible, they tend to get it from pop culture.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, when you did all the research for that, and I know from personal experience, writing that final paper, mine, was 200 and something pages long. I mean, it's a beast. You just have to keep slugging it out and slugging it out. You, knew going into it that replacement theology is not biblical. Was there anything else you learned as you studied it more deeply that you're like, oh, I didn't realize that before anything jump out at you that way.
Jeff Kinley: I think the biggest thing for me was just the questions. I had a sort of a control group, a Bible study group that, worked with me on this in terms of, you know, getting their feedback from the average Christian. And a lot of the questions that I got, were basically how do I defend, the biblical view of Israel, to my world, to my friends, to my church, that type of thing. And the other thing that really jumped out to me was, was just how much of Revelation is very Israeli centric. I mean, when you read Revelation, through the template of God's plan for Israel in the last days, you see, by some accounts over 400. Allusions to the Old Testament embedded within the book of Revelation. So it seems like to me that if God was done with Israel, he wouldn't end his written revelation to mankind. Talking all about Israel and about things that relate to, the Old Testament and to modern day Israel.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, what do you say to the person, as it relates to replacement theology, which is basically just the church has replaced Israel, all the promises are to the church. Israel is not no longer the people of God, because they rejected the Messiah. That's basically it in a nutshell. Would you add anything to that or is that sufficient?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, there's several little branches of replacement theology. One is what you just mentioned is called punitive supersessionism. The idea that God is punishing Israel for rejecting Messiah, therefore he's cast them off. And therefore all the promises that once accrued to Israel now accrue to us. So in that case, you have to then reinterpret promises about the kingdom, about the land, about David's throne and things like that. but yeah, I mean, it really boils down to has the church become the new Israel? Other branches of replacement theology theologists just say, well, no, you know, Israel was kind of like a rocket booster that burned off that God doesn't need them anymore. And so he kind of used the rejection of Messiah to transition into the church age. but as you read scripture, you see Israel and the church, even in the NewSong Testament being treated as two separate entities. And so what Paul does essentially in Romans 9:11, he answers that question, has God rejected his people Israel? And the answer in Hebrews, excuse me, Romans 11:1, is Meganoito? Absolutely not. And, so Paul really defends that thesis and puts kind of the death knell to me on replacement theology in those chapters.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Jeff, how do you answer the question? And I've had this, floating around in my head before, and it's come back to me, well, does God have two people? are there two people of God, so to speak? So Israel is God's chosen people, but the church is God's chosen people. So how do we put that together?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, so the covenant theologian or the replacement theologian, would say, no, there's one people of God from eternity past to eternity future. And in a sense you can sort of understand that salvifically. But what God did with the nation Israel is he made a covenant with them as a nation, not with individual Jews, but with the nation. And that's what we're talking about when we talk about God's promises to Israel. Now there is obviously a salvific element within that with the NewSong Covenant, and now in the church age, we have Jew and Gentile mixed in the church. But those promises that we talk about related to Israel relate to national Israel. For example, God promised in Ezekiel 36 and 37 that Israel would one day return to the land. Well, he didn't promise an individual Jew that he would return to the land, but the nation. And so that's what we've seen in the regathering of Israel to the land. and so this is a national promise. And so it's, Jeff, it really has a lot of ramifications and implications regarding how does a Christian view national Israel today? in that the majority national Israel is atheistic or agnostic or non religious. And so how's a Christian supposed to respond to Israel's military operations and different things like that? And so to me it boils down to this, is that, you know, while we are in the church age and Jew and Gentile are in the church together as the bride of Christ, national Israel has been regathered first in unbelief. And the progression that we see, in the Scriptures is that they will be regathered as a nation, just physically. God's got to get them in the land first. And then after that there comes a spiritual redemption, at the end of the tribulation period. And so when we say that we support Israel, and I get a lot of questions about that, it's like, how can I support this secularist state? I just say, look, basically what we're saying about Israel when we say we support them is, number one, we support their right to exist. that's fundamental. Secondly, we support their right to be in the land that God had promised to them. thirdly, we support their right to defend themselves, just like we would any nation. and then we also believe that we are to be a blessing to Israel according to Genesis, 12, 3. And then Paul says in Romans 11:11, I want to make Israel jealous of the relationship that I have with God. So we want to get the Gospel to individual Jews, that are both scattered all over the world and living in Israel. So, yeah, I disagree with some of the things that Israel might do, but I disagree with my own government as well. So that has nothing to do with really a biblical or spiritual, connection. It's more we support Israel's right to be there, to exist and to defend themselves.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so Jeff, as we read in Revelation Israel is going to turn to the Messiah during the tribulation period. Do, you see that happening primarily in the second half, in the great tribulation, the last three and a half years, when the Antichrist breaks the treaty with them and declares himself as being God? 2nd Thessalonians, chapter 2. Or do you see a lot of Jews coming to Christ even in those first three and a half years?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I think we're going to see Jews come to Christ in the first three and a half years as well, because of the testimony of the 144,000, Jewish evangelists, in Revelation 7. We also have in Revelation 11, the two witnesses that will be testifying and performing great miracles, calling down fire from heaven, those type of things, on, to give testimony and evidence to the validity of their message. And so I think we'll see some Jews obviously come to Christ in the first half, but as you mentioned, in the second half, it's going to be so acute, they're going to realize that, look, in order to survive, we're going to have to run, as Jesus said in Matthew 24, once the abomination of desolation takes place, it's then at the end of the tribulation period where National Israel will officially call upon Messiah, according to Zechariah 12:14. And they will see, the one whom they have pierced, and they will mourn over him as one mourns over an only son. So, it really matches what Jesus said in Matthew, chapter 23, when he said, you're not going to see me again until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. So a ramping up, I think, some during the first half. but it's going to be that salvation, that calling upon the Lord is going to come to a great, climax at the end of the tribulation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, with the, conflict and the war basically just a war with Iran, and it's cranked back up again. no big shock there. I mean, the Iranian leaders are just a bunch of liars. I don't understand. I, struggle a little bit with, President Trump in that he doesn't realize that, you can't trust anything that they say. I, think it's hard to defeat them unless you go in there and just crush their head. what do you see as far as the ongoing battle with Iran and how does that figure into Bible prophecy?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, that's an interesting question, because what we're seeing is, things that are contributing towards the biblical narrative of the end times. Because as we'll talk about, I'm sure Ezekiel 38, mentions Persia or Iran coming against Israel in the last days with another coalition of nations. But for me, Jeff, I agree. It's so easy for a discerning believer who reads their Bible to see, as Jesus said in Jon 8. 44, that Satan is the father of lies. And, they are, basically, I mean, the Prince of Persia is a demon that is over, controlling, the governmental decisions of Iran. So there's a demonic influence and so they cannot be trusted. If they said it's 10 o' clock in the morning, I wouldn't trust them. And so they're habitual, pathological liars and their Islamic religion, their faith, gives them permission to do that. but yeah, they can't be trusted. The, thing that we know and that I've been saying, as we have seen these attacks on Iran and of course President Trump has, has threatened to, you know, wipe them off the map, we know that's not going to happen, because we know they're going to come against Israel with this other coalition nation. So to me, I just tell people, look, you can't really say anything definitive about this act or this bombing or this skirmish because the story, is still being written. And so we kind of have to have a little bit of a hands off approach as to saying a prophecy has been fulfilled. I think there will be prophetic implications. but, it's kind of a, let's just watch what happens and see how it dovetails into the biblical narrative.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: We're talking to prophecy pro Jeff Kinley, and Jeff is a prolific author and really, does a great job talking about things related to Bible prophecy. I became acquainted with Jeff Kinley when I got his book on Noah. Was that a man called Noah? I'm trying to remember.
Jeff Kinley: Off topic as it was in the days of Noah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, great, great book. I preached a sermon series, use that book, it's extensively in my preaching on Noah. So we're going to talk when we come back from the break. We're going to talk about America and America's future and the rapture of the church. It's exciting stuff. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here with, Jeff Kinley. We'll be right back. Don't go away.
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Jeff Chamblee: This is real truth for today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And I'm talking to my friend Jeff Kinley, the prophecy pro and the host of the King is Coming TV program and a best selling author. Many, books, books on the days of Noah, books on Revelation, books on, the Olivet discourse. Great stuff, really deep stuff. And I, encourage you, pastors out there, Bible teachers, teach about the second coming of Jesus, teach about what the Bible says concerning what the future holds. Because as we just read at the top of the program, 1 Thessalonians 4, comfort 1 another with these words, the promise of the rapture of the church, the Lord coming again in the clouds and drawing us together to himself. That is the comfort of the church. Now Jeff, you've written extensively about the Rapture. The rapture gets a bad rap from many, in Christian circles. For some reason they don't like the idea of the Rapture. I don't get it. It's the blessed hope, but they seem to really push against that. why do people have a problem with the idea of the Lord coming before the Tribulation to rescue us from the wrath that is to come?
Jeff Kinley: Well, I think there are a couple reasons. I think one is just traditional denominationalism. Particular, churches have never really believed in the Rapture because of their interpretive method. they see just one coming of Christ at the second coming somewhere in the future. They, don't know when that's going to be. They, don't typically believe in a literal tribulation or a literal millennial kingdom either. I think a second reason is because of a lot of sensationalism related to the end times and related to Bible prophecy and the Rapture, date setting, you know, movies that have come out, things like that, sometimes they're a little bit on the cheesy side, you know, and people are like, oh gosh, I don't want to be associated with that. but people just making predictions of dates and people kind of getting glassy eyed about the end times and Bible prophecy. And then a third reason I think is because of a false narrative that's been propagated, by people that have had large platforms about the fact that or the idea that the Rapture was really invented by Jon Nelson Darby in the 1830s and that he sort of came up with the idea. And that is a, ah, theory that has been debunked hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. And yet people keep bringing it up. I often say it's kind of like keep saying the moon is made of green cheese. I think we've settled that. It's not made of green cheese. in the same way with this idea that Darby invented the Rapture, when we trace the belief in the imminent return of Christ, we go all the way back to the church fathers. And the church fathers believed in an imminent return, that Christ could come at any time. And then of course, just the scripture, itself and the pattern of God's deliverance throughout scripture and what the NewSong Testament says and the differences between the Rapture and the second Coming as described in Scripture in that passage that you talked about. So to me there are lots of reasons why, but I think too underlying all of that, it's just kind of a low grade fever of biblical illiteracy that's out there in the church today where most people don't know what they believe about anything. I mean, if you were to say when you pray the Lord's Prayer, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Wait a minute, what kingdom are you talking about? and they would go, well, I don't know, I guess just God being in charge somewhere. You know, I mean, they don't know about the Davidic kingdom and the Messianic kingdom that God has promised, Israel and promise for us to be into. So there's a lot of biblical ignorance out there. And Jeff, as you said, you know, just a moment ago, pastors need to know, they need to study about Bible prophecy. And that's one of the great privileges that I have in partnering with people like you, in events and conferences, but also pastors that say, look, I really don't know that much. About this. Here's this guy who does. And we're going to come together and learn together, as a body here through. So, lots of reasons out there, and that's why we keep teaching the truth.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Jeff. When we think about America in Bible prophecy, some people have tried to find America in Bible prophecy. I think it's pretty hard to do. Where's Waldo? I don't think Waldo is on the page. what's your take of America and Bible prophecy?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I wrote a book a few years ago, called the End of America, Bible Prophecy in a country in crisis. And in there I talk about just different ways people think they see America in Bible prophecy. Some, some people think that we're, Babylon in the last days, in particularly NewSong York City. some people think that we are, the one who comes in the eagle that rescues Israel or protects Israel in the last days. Others see us as, you know, part of the, the merchants of Tarshish, you know, in Ezekiel 38 and that type of thing. But, but to be honest, I mean, there are lots of countries that are not mentioned in the Bible in the last days. I mean, Bolivia is not mentioned. Canada is not mentioned. there are other superpowers that are not mentioned. But the countries that are talked about are countries that are really germane to the biblical narrative in the last days. the countries that come against Israel, Israel obviously itself. The nations that are surrounding Israel. And so those nations that are, relevant to the prophetic narrative, obviously God's going to talk about those things because the last days primarily is about Israel. So that's a reason why. And another reason why, I think, Jeff, is because the fact that when we think about the last days, and particularly the Rapture and its impact on America, I believe that America will no longer be a superpower, in the moments immediately following the Rapture, that we will be gutted, pretty much at every level of our culture and society. As believers are taken away and the restraining influence of evil is taken away. I believe this will open us up to vulnerability, to attack from, whether it be Islamic terrorist cells within or countries from without. I think it's going to open us up to a great attack. There's going to be chaos and confusion, there's going to be a leadership void in, the country. And so, lots of reasons why I believe that America is not really a player, in the last days. Now, I will say this. In defense of America, two things that we have been the greatest supporter and propagator of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the last 150 years. In that sense, we have played a part in the last days. And then secondly, with our alliance in support of Israel, at least in this administration, we have also, played a role in the last days in helping to defend and help Israel to survive.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Jeff, I had, Erwin Lutzer on the program some time ago, and I was asking him with the seven letters to the seven churches. You know, some. Some people say, well, those are. That's speaking to specific church ages. I, would. I can't remember if you hold to that or not. I'm thinking you don't. Am I right?
Jeff Kinley: yes, I do not hold to that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so if you had to say, what letter would the USA get? the church in America today? Lutzer said he thought we were, more like Sardis asleep in the light than Laodicea. I can see us being kind of both, depending on which church you're looking at. where do you see America in those letters?
Jeff Kinley: Well, again, these letters were written to churches, and so it's, specifically speaking to the body of Christ. So if we're talking about the body of Christ in America today, then I would say that we would be very similar to Sardis. I wrote a book called Wake the Bride, essentially based on that very verse in Revelation 3, 2. but also see Laodicea as well. There's a lot of cultural Christianity in America today, as I mentioned, just biblical illiteracy. there are also churches that are very doctrinally sound, but they don't love Jesus. And so that's the church at Ephesus. There's, I think, as you see the churches, in Revelation 2 and 3, that you will find parallels in America all throughout American churches, to those seven churches as it relates to America as a country. I see us really found more In Romans, chapter one, verses 18 through 32, where we have rejected God as creator, rejected, His. The worship of Him. We've turned to. To basically worshiping the planet ourselves. There's been a sexual revolution, a homosexual revival, verse, 32. It gets to the point where God just gives us over to a depraved mind. We celebrate evil, we celebrate sin. we have a whole month called Pride Month. there's a lot of parallels in Romans 1 to where I see America today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, did you. You and I are about the same age, and as you begin to study Bible prophecy, you know, this idea. Thessalonians, there is going to be a falling away, an apostasy? I remember learning that when I was in College in the 80s, and it was hard for me to grasp how that could happen, but it seems like we are just seeing it unfold right before our eyes. People that we thought were solid, they are not solid. And, their theology has gone off the rails. I had Seth Gruber on the program a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about guys like Andy Stanley and others where they cave on things. Rick Warren caving on things that are very clear in scripture about the office of the pastor is reserved for men. That doesn't mean women are second class. It just means that's how God set it up. A man is to lead the home, not the wife and things like that. have you been surprised at how fast it seems like we are, we are apostatizing from the truth?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Dr. Mark Hitchcock and I wrote a book called the Coming Apostasy where we address that very issue. And what we found as we studied that very passage in 2 Thessalonians, is that that departure is a willful departure. it's a choice to stand away from the truth. That's what the word apostasy means to stand away from. And what we've seen, as you mentioned, people that were, you know, I went to. I was in seminary with Andy Stanley, I think he was in my class. but just to see people that have basically said this, the word of God is not sufficient. And it is. It really harkens back to Jeff, Genesis 3, where the very first lie about the word of God was a lie about the word of God. It, was. Has God really said. And so this apostasy that we see is all based upon doubting the word of God. and it's just not sufficient anymore, as you mentioned. It's not sufficient to tell us who should be pastors in the church. It's not sufficient about, on sexuality. it's not sufficient on marriage. It's not sufficient on morality. It's not even sufficient on the death of Christ. There's a, a growing conversation now where people are really beginning to doubt the idea of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ. that Christ really didn't die and pay for our sins. it was just a love gift that he gave to the father. And this moral example that he gave. I mean, there's all sorts of ways, ah, doctrinally and morally, that churches and that pastors and that people are apostatizing but we're seeing more and more and it really boils down to this. Not only are people doubting God's word, but I think too, Jeff, the fear of man and the fear of culture has caused a lot of pastors, church leaders, authors, podcasters, you know, TV show hosts to basically look around the world and go, now what's the going narrative here? And if I don't conform to this, I'm going to be so unpopular and canceled, perhaps even canceled in my ministry. So I have to accommodate these things. And so that's where it begins. It begins by just saying, hey, I don't think God's word really was relevant, you know, and we're just going to change it up a bit. And so it just highlights the point. Jeff, you know what Paul said in second Timothy, chapter four, preach the word in season and out of season, there's going to be times it's not going to be popular.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I totally agree. You know, one of the things that I, love about Ken Ham answers in Genesis, he takes the unpopular position. It's a young earth and thus says the Lord, that's how it was created. And even people, you know, William Laine Craig has caved on that. I don't know what his position was maybe 20, 30 years ago, but he comes out and says, yeah, it's billions of years old. And obviously you would never get that from reading the Bible. If you were born on a deserted island somewhere with just mom and dad and a Bible, you would never come up with evolution as how things came into being. So that's totally opposite of what the Bible teaches.
Jeff Kinley: It really is. And yes, I applaud Ken Ham for that. Ken and I actually co wrote a book together here several years ago. And one of the things that we discovered was that in the early stages of a, kid's development in the church is where they begin to stray from the truth of God's word. And so it's no longer the atheist professor that's shaking the faith of the college freshman Christian. That's happening really as early as age 13 or even below that. And so I applaud people like Ken and others. I wrote an autobiography of the man who invented the mri, a brilliant doctor who was up for the Nobel Prize, but they found out that he believed in a literal six day creation and so they blackballed him from getting the Nobel Prize. But as you mentioned, some apologists out there who, who are, some of them are very brilliant at arguing for the defense of the faith. But because they lean so heavily on the principles of logic and of science, they put that template over their Bible. And they fail to realize that God is above science. God invented the laws of science, and sometimes he transcends the laws of science. For example, speaking the entire universe into existence in a millisecond. It's just hard for us to believe, because of our prideful minds. But God's an infinite guy to do anything he wants to, that's for sure.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Jeff, as we think about the rapture of the church, we don't know when that's coming. The Bible doesn't tell us when it's coming. It kind of gives us the season of when it's coming. Just in the last minute and a half that we have before the break. Could you imagine a scenario where we are 50 years away from the Rapture, or do you think it is very imminent?
Jeff Kinley: I always look to Second Peter, three, nine, when I think about the timing of the Rapture, because it says the Lord is not slack concerning his promises. Some count slackness or slowness, but it's patient, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And I always think of it this way, is that everything in the world is pointing towards, the coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation. We're seeing the signs of the tribulation now in formation. But the Rapture hasn't happened yet. And as Dr. Jon Walvoor used to always say, it's like walking through the grocery store and you hear Christmas music playing. But Thanksgiving hasn't come yet. Well, that tells you Thanksgiving is closer than it's ever been before. So in terms of years, it's hard to imagine. God's patience, I think, is holding back the dam of his judgment right now. but the Rapture could come before we end this program, or it could come several years from now. so it's hard to put, just parameters on that. It all boils down to the patience and the plan, the providential plan of God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. We're talking to Dr. Jeff Kinley. We're talking about Bible prophecy, Iran, America, and the Rapture. When we come back from the break, we'll take your calls. 888-589-8840. That's 888-589-8840. If you have a question or comment, give us a call. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve on afr.
Jeff Chamblee: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff. Email Pastor jeffromhishheart.org Now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here I'm talking to my friend Dr. Jeff Kinley, a, ah, leading voice in Bible prophecy. He is the host of the Prophecy Pro podcast and also the King is Coming TV program and written many great books on the second coming of Jesus Christ and all the that the Bible tells us about the future. Jeff, what is the percentage of the Bible that is dedicated, to Bible prophecy? It's a huge percentage.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, it's anywhere from 28 to 30% of the Bible was, prophetic at the time it was written. So almost a third of all Scripture.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, we are doing ourselves a great disservice if we don't study that and learn what is coming. a question I had, Jeff. I preached on a Wednesday night series the book of Zechariah, which is not easy. Zechariah is very, very difficult. Prophets like that, him in particular. How much do you think he understood of what he was writing?
Jeff Kinley: That's a great question. I, think as you put all of Scripture together, you'll find that the prophetic writers were given just a piece of the puzzle. And I always liken it to this. Jeff is like during World War II they had this thing called the Manhattan Project and they had different plants in Tennessee and Chicago and other parts of the country and they were working on, ah, specific aspects of the atomic bomb, but none of them knew it was the atomic bomb. They just knew I'm making some sort of, you know, vacuum glass tube or whatever that contributes toward a process, in that, in that whole development of the bomb. Then eventually when the bomb was released, they knew, okay, we're all working on this thing together. I think that in some ways is how the prophets understood. You know, people talk about how the prophets saw sort of the mountain peaks of Bible prophecy as they looked down through the corridor of time. They couldn't see the valleys of what some of the other prophets were to write ahead of them. And also the valley of the church and this dispensation that we're in right now. So there were a lot of things they couldn't understand, but each of them were given a role to play. and Micah knew about Bethlehem, Isaiah knew about the suffering servant, and Zechariah knew about the second Coming. So there are different ways that it comes together. We now sit in a very privileged place in history where we have the completed revelation of God, the completed scripture, we can see it all. We get the Google Earth view and we get to study the bark on the tree. So we get everything that the prophets didn't get.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so as it relates, and that's a great answer as it relates to the Rapture in the Old Testament, Adrian Rogers preached about Enoch being taken up before the flood. that could be a veiled reference to the Rapture. Do you see any other references to the Rapture in the Old Testament?
Jeff Kinley: I think what we have is we have illustrations of God's deliverance of his people before he brings judgment. Obviously Enoch was one of those. I think Noah in the ark was another indication of that. certainly Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah was perhaps the clearest, preview or pre illustration of what we now know as the Rapture. When Abraham was speaking to the angels in Genesis 18, Abraham argued on the basis of the character of God. He said, God, you cannot punish the righteous with the wicked. It's just against your character. And essentially the angel of the Lord there agreed with him and so then said, okay, well if I find this many righteous, I won't punish, the city. But what he did was he removed the righteous out of Sodom and Gomorrah and then brought the judgment. that is the pattern of God's deliverance in the Old Testament. And it certainly does illustrate what we now see as a pre tribulational rapture.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Okay, so reaching the youth of America, I know that's on your heart. Tell us a little bit about that.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we were invited. Todd Hampson, my other prophecy pro, partner, was invited to come out to Chino Hills, to do a first ever youth prophecy conference. their youth ministry wanted to do that. They're great teaching pastors out there. And we had no idea who would show up or if anyone would show up. Well, 900 students, showed up at this thing. there were dozens of decisions for Christ. Do we deepen them in the scriptures and Bible prophecy and the hope found in the return of Christ? And Jack and his staff said, hey, let's do, let's do it again next year. So last year we came back, 1100 students showed up. 201 students gave their hearts to Jesus Christ. Discipleship was happened. Jeff, they were dialed in from word one. there's a manual they get, they were taking notes. they're asking the most substantive questions during our Q and A time. So we're going back in November to do it a third time. But out of that grew and was launched a vision a M ministry called Future Hope. And Future Hope exists to train students and to train youth pastors on how to understand, eschatology for, youth pastors, how to teach it even for pastors. And so, we are, are developing. We've got conferences scheduled, in grand, Rapids. We got one in Minnesota. we're going to Mark Hitchcock's church next year, Gary Hamrick's church. we'll be in Houston, next year as well, at a church. So, we're doing these youth conferences there. And it's just giving students not only hope for the future in the midst of chaotic and uncertain times, but it gives them a hope to share with their friends, to help them understand, hey, this is not all that there is. Christ is coming back. Here's how you can know him.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, we're going to the phone lines at 888-589-8840 and we have Jim on the line from NewSong Jersey. Jim, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Yeah, the question is, since 70 A.D. has Israel ever repented?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, so in 70 A.D. is essentially when Jerusalem fell under General Titus and the, Jews began to be scattered. And then 135 A.D. hadrian essentially banned all Jews from Israel. no, national repentance of Israel has not happened. the process of their salvation is first to be regathered to the land, which began, really began in the 1800s, but. But 1948 became a nation again. But Scripture indicates that they will call upon the name of the Lord According to Zechariah, 14, at the end of the tribulation period. And at that time, that's when national repentance of Israel I believe, will happen, scripturally. Yeah, good question.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Thank you, Jim. Anything else on that?
Caroline: does that affect our attitude towards Israel today if. If they have not repented, since 70 A.D. or actually before that?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Jeff Kinley: Yes, good. Good question. Yeah, I think it does affect our attitude toward Israel. I think, number one, it ought to give us a sense of urgency to reach Jews with the gospel of Jesus Christ, individual Jews, both in Israel and in our own country and around the world. And then secondly to, reinforce and recommit ourselves to support national Israel's right to exist and to bless them. not to agree with all the things that they do, of course, but according to Genesis 12:3, that God will bless those who bless Israel. Curse those who curse them. So there is I think, and Jim, you highlight an interesting point. The tension that Christians may feel in national Israel that's really agnostic or atheist or secular and our mandate, to bless the Jews and to reach them with the gospel. So we live with that tension. but as I said earlier in the program, we support their right to exist according to God's promise. There are unfulfilled covenants and promises God has made to Israel. and we believe those covenants and that kingdom will come to pass.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Hey Jeff, just curious. I know you spent a good bit of time in Jerusalem and surrounding areas when you wrote the book the End of the World According to Jesus of Nazareth. How were you treated by the Jews as a believer?
Jeff Kinley: it was just amazing. I mean I was treated with, with such kindness, such compassion. I mean there was such an openness because they know we don't hate them and it's like, you know, when you find someone who is actually going to be nice to you. We had an encounter with a young 20 something year old Jewish young man. He said, I came to America. I couldn't believe I was so afraid because I thought I was going to be attacked and I was, was so welcomed by so many people. Of course that narrative fluctuates, but no, we were very welcomed there. While we were there in Israel, we had a chance this past January to go back to Jerusalem to shoot a bunch of video and teaching materials. we had the privilege of interviewing Ambassador, Mike Huckabee and have a private interview with him which we posted on our, on our channel. And but no, it's real welcoming. I mean the shop and stores and restaurants and places you go, Israel is one of the most welcoming places I've ever been to.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, thank you Jim. I appreciate the call. We have Archie on the line from Texas. Archie, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Question, basically asking for comment on the veil, or the eyes of the, of the Jewish people. it kind of, kind of brings in some compassion and patience with me to understand what they're having to go through. And the other half of the question is not related but is the Shema something that a foundation for something that's about to happen or to bring to understanding.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Jeff, could you hear that? He's talking about.
Jeff Kinley: I couldn't quite.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The veil over the eyes of the Jews right now. Should we have compassion on them. So since they are blinded to the Truth?
Caroline: Yeah.
Jeff Kinley: Hebrews, excuse me, Romans 11:25 says that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles will come in. And that fullness of the Gentiles, I believe, refers to the fruition and the maturation of the church at the Rapture. And so, yeah, it's interesting that the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his heart and then God hardened his heart. and so I think what we've seen with the Jewish people, really, beginning with their rejection of Messiah, nationally speaking, there's been a hardness of heart among the Jewish people. And so it ought to just really motivate us to pray, to find effective ways to bless, to serve in a Christian way, Jewish people, and to find the most effective ways to really share the gospel, with them. And then what was the second part
Pastor Jeff Schreve: of the question, Archie, that was about the Shema, correct?
Caroline: Yeah. I wondered what would be the foundation for people to understand the Trinity?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The foundation for people to understand the Trinity in the shema in Deuteronomy 6.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. So basically, you know, the Jewish people as being one of the great monotheistic religions, they probably didn't understand completely the full revelation of the character and the nature of God. because Scripture is a progressive revelation. Of course, we have all the way back in Genesis 1:26, let us, create man, in our own image. but if you would have asked, even Thomas, the disciple who put his hands in the side of Jesus and declared, my Lord and my God, if you would have took a timeout and said, hey, Thomas, explain to us the doctrine of the Trinity. Thomas would have said, what are you talking about? You know, so, you know, I mean, just their understanding and a progression and a procession of understanding. in fact, the word Trinity wasn't even invented until the 4th century. And so our theology, our doctrine, and the history of doctrine throughout the church ages is a progression of understanding. And as we finally got the completed Word of God into the hands of the common people, thanks to people like Wycliffe and Luther and people like that, then more Christians were able to understand and articulate the doctrine that's found in the Bible. And so that's why we say things like, well, the word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the teaching of the triune God is. the word missions is not in the Bible, but we believe in a mandate of missions and, and other things like that. And so, understanding that the Jews were given a partial revelation and it grew over time. They didn't know the name of Messiah, what he would be called. They, didn't know where he would be born until Micah told them. So it's a progression and we have to understand that as we study those passages in the Old Testament.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, what would you say to the person, you know, when you study Bible prophecy, you know that the Lord's kingdom is not of this world. we have people today talk about Christian nationalism and you know, you guys are all promoting, America and wanting to support America when the Lord's kingdom is not America. how do you reconcile those two? Because obviously, if we let America just go away, that has implications and ramifications for the gospel around the world. How do you see that?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I mean as I see the foundation of our country and we see how we were founded upon solid Judeo Christian principles, many of the founders were Christians and the society that we were in, I mean we experienced revivals in our country. There's so much good about the nature of America and its founding. obviously we've seen America really drift from that, dramatically and have a dramatic downturn morally. And so when I talk about my country, I talk about what I want my country to be, not only what I see that my country is right now. So I am a patriot. I love my country, but I don't love it with glassy eyed blank check sort of, perspective. we see the bumps, the bruises, the warts. We see where we're at sliding in so many different areas. So we have to temper that and to realize that the Bible says in Philippians 3 that our citizenship is in heaven and that that's where we're really going to be. We're just visiting America right now, but eventually we're going to be in heaven together. So let's make America as biblical and godly as we possibly can through individuals, coming to Christ and through having impact in our society through government and things like that. But, but in the end, what's going to change America is not government. It's going to be the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, my guest has been prophecy pro Dr. Jeff Kinley. And Jeff, where can they check out your website and materials and things? Yeah, just jeffkinley.com jeffkinley.com with an E in there. K I N L E Y. Well thanks for listening to Real Truth for today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve. I'll be with you again tomorrow. Go out today, shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you, and God will use you as his witness. God bless you.
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Jeff Chamblee: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Shirive, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Tuesday morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff here wanted to read to you a very familiar passage. First Thessalonians, chapter 4. Beginning in verse 13, Paul says, but we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, those who have died so that you will not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words. That is the classic raptured passage, the rapture of the church that precedes the actual return of Christ by seven years by the tribulation, the duration of the tribulation period. I believe that. And my guest believes that. my guest today is my friend Jeff Kinley. He's a prolific author, over 40 books. his latest book, is called A Visual Guide to the End Times. He has a book on the Book of the Revelation, God's grand finality, wrath, Grace and glory in the earth's last days. And then a book on the olivet discourse, Matthew 24:25, the end of the world according to Jesus of Nazareth. He is the host of the Prophecy Pro podcast and the King Is Coming TV program. And just an all around good guy, Jeff, Kinley, welcome to the program today.
Jeff Kinley: Jeff. Thanks so much, brother. Good to be back with you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I appreciate you coming on My friend, I know you are super busy, and I do want to say congratulations on your doctorate from Liberty University. A Doctor of Ministry. You got it in, the end of 2025, but you walked in 2026.
Jeff Kinley: Absolutely. As you know, it's a long process, but once you get it done, you're glad that you did it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So what was your thesis?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, my thesis was on the error of replacement theology. And so just explored that, because it's so prevalent today in the church and there's a lot of misinformation, a lot of ignorance about Israel. And so, that was kind of the impetus for me pursuing that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: that's a great topic. So, Jeff, that seems to be m more popular than ever today. And although there are many who say we're not replacement theologians, we're not replacing Israel with the church, but it sure sounds like that's what they're doing.
Jeff Kinley: Well, absolutely. When you look at just practically how people treat Israel, today, how many Christians look at Israel and they don't understand the whole purpose of Israel and what God's plan to do with Israel in the last days. And so all they see and hear is what they hear on the news and, the narrative that's being spun by the mainstream media and even some within the church. And so, once again, instead of getting our information straight from the Bible, they tend to get it from pop culture.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, when you did all the research for that, and I know from personal experience, writing that final paper, mine, was 200 and something pages long. I mean, it's a beast. You just have to keep slugging it out and slugging it out. You, knew going into it that replacement theology is not biblical. Was there anything else you learned as you studied it more deeply that you're like, oh, I didn't realize that before anything jump out at you that way.
Jeff Kinley: I think the biggest thing for me was just the questions. I had a sort of a control group, a Bible study group that, worked with me on this in terms of, you know, getting their feedback from the average Christian. And a lot of the questions that I got, were basically how do I defend, the biblical view of Israel, to my world, to my friends, to my church, that type of thing. And the other thing that really jumped out to me was, was just how much of Revelation is very Israeli centric. I mean, when you read Revelation, through the template of God's plan for Israel in the last days, you see, by some accounts over 400. Allusions to the Old Testament embedded within the book of Revelation. So it seems like to me that if God was done with Israel, he wouldn't end his written revelation to mankind. Talking all about Israel and about things that relate to, the Old Testament and to modern day Israel.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, what do you say to the person, as it relates to replacement theology, which is basically just the church has replaced Israel, all the promises are to the church. Israel is not no longer the people of God, because they rejected the Messiah. That's basically it in a nutshell. Would you add anything to that or is that sufficient?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, there's several little branches of replacement theology. One is what you just mentioned is called punitive supersessionism. The idea that God is punishing Israel for rejecting Messiah, therefore he's cast them off. And therefore all the promises that once accrued to Israel now accrue to us. So in that case, you have to then reinterpret promises about the kingdom, about the land, about David's throne and things like that. but yeah, I mean, it really boils down to has the church become the new Israel? Other branches of replacement theology theologists just say, well, no, you know, Israel was kind of like a rocket booster that burned off that God doesn't need them anymore. And so he kind of used the rejection of Messiah to transition into the church age. but as you read scripture, you see Israel and the church, even in the NewSong Testament being treated as two separate entities. And so what Paul does essentially in Romans 9:11, he answers that question, has God rejected his people Israel? And the answer in Hebrews, excuse me, Romans 11:1, is Meganoito? Absolutely not. And, so Paul really defends that thesis and puts kind of the death knell to me on replacement theology in those chapters.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Jeff, how do you answer the question? And I've had this, floating around in my head before, and it's come back to me, well, does God have two people? are there two people of God, so to speak? So Israel is God's chosen people, but the church is God's chosen people. So how do we put that together?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, so the covenant theologian or the replacement theologian, would say, no, there's one people of God from eternity past to eternity future. And in a sense you can sort of understand that salvifically. But what God did with the nation Israel is he made a covenant with them as a nation, not with individual Jews, but with the nation. And that's what we're talking about when we talk about God's promises to Israel. Now there is obviously a salvific element within that with the NewSong Covenant, and now in the church age, we have Jew and Gentile mixed in the church. But those promises that we talk about related to Israel relate to national Israel. For example, God promised in Ezekiel 36 and 37 that Israel would one day return to the land. Well, he didn't promise an individual Jew that he would return to the land, but the nation. And so that's what we've seen in the regathering of Israel to the land. and so this is a national promise. And so it's, Jeff, it really has a lot of ramifications and implications regarding how does a Christian view national Israel today? in that the majority national Israel is atheistic or agnostic or non religious. And so how's a Christian supposed to respond to Israel's military operations and different things like that? And so to me it boils down to this, is that, you know, while we are in the church age and Jew and Gentile are in the church together as the bride of Christ, national Israel has been regathered first in unbelief. And the progression that we see, in the Scriptures is that they will be regathered as a nation, just physically. God's got to get them in the land first. And then after that there comes a spiritual redemption, at the end of the tribulation period. And so when we say that we support Israel, and I get a lot of questions about that, it's like, how can I support this secularist state? I just say, look, basically what we're saying about Israel when we say we support them is, number one, we support their right to exist. that's fundamental. Secondly, we support their right to be in the land that God had promised to them. thirdly, we support their right to defend themselves, just like we would any nation. and then we also believe that we are to be a blessing to Israel according to Genesis, 12, 3. And then Paul says in Romans 11:11, I want to make Israel jealous of the relationship that I have with God. So we want to get the Gospel to individual Jews, that are both scattered all over the world and living in Israel. So, yeah, I disagree with some of the things that Israel might do, but I disagree with my own government as well. So that has nothing to do with really a biblical or spiritual, connection. It's more we support Israel's right to be there, to exist and to defend themselves.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so Jeff, as we read in Revelation Israel is going to turn to the Messiah during the tribulation period. Do, you see that happening primarily in the second half, in the great tribulation, the last three and a half years, when the Antichrist breaks the treaty with them and declares himself as being God? 2nd Thessalonians, chapter 2. Or do you see a lot of Jews coming to Christ even in those first three and a half years?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I think we're going to see Jews come to Christ in the first three and a half years as well, because of the testimony of the 144,000, Jewish evangelists, in Revelation 7. We also have in Revelation 11, the two witnesses that will be testifying and performing great miracles, calling down fire from heaven, those type of things, on, to give testimony and evidence to the validity of their message. And so I think we'll see some Jews obviously come to Christ in the first half, but as you mentioned, in the second half, it's going to be so acute, they're going to realize that, look, in order to survive, we're going to have to run, as Jesus said in Matthew 24, once the abomination of desolation takes place, it's then at the end of the tribulation period where National Israel will officially call upon Messiah, according to Zechariah 12:14. And they will see, the one whom they have pierced, and they will mourn over him as one mourns over an only son. So, it really matches what Jesus said in Matthew, chapter 23, when he said, you're not going to see me again until you say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. So a ramping up, I think, some during the first half. but it's going to be that salvation, that calling upon the Lord is going to come to a great, climax at the end of the tribulation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, with the, conflict and the war basically just a war with Iran, and it's cranked back up again. no big shock there. I mean, the Iranian leaders are just a bunch of liars. I don't understand. I, struggle a little bit with, President Trump in that he doesn't realize that, you can't trust anything that they say. I, think it's hard to defeat them unless you go in there and just crush their head. what do you see as far as the ongoing battle with Iran and how does that figure into Bible prophecy?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, that's an interesting question, because what we're seeing is, things that are contributing towards the biblical narrative of the end times. Because as we'll talk about, I'm sure Ezekiel 38, mentions Persia or Iran coming against Israel in the last days with another coalition of nations. But for me, Jeff, I agree. It's so easy for a discerning believer who reads their Bible to see, as Jesus said in Jon 8. 44, that Satan is the father of lies. And, they are, basically, I mean, the Prince of Persia is a demon that is over, controlling, the governmental decisions of Iran. So there's a demonic influence and so they cannot be trusted. If they said it's 10 o' clock in the morning, I wouldn't trust them. And so they're habitual, pathological liars and their Islamic religion, their faith, gives them permission to do that. but yeah, they can't be trusted. The, thing that we know and that I've been saying, as we have seen these attacks on Iran and of course President Trump has, has threatened to, you know, wipe them off the map, we know that's not going to happen, because we know they're going to come against Israel with this other coalition nation. So to me, I just tell people, look, you can't really say anything definitive about this act or this bombing or this skirmish because the story, is still being written. And so we kind of have to have a little bit of a hands off approach as to saying a prophecy has been fulfilled. I think there will be prophetic implications. but, it's kind of a, let's just watch what happens and see how it dovetails into the biblical narrative.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: We're talking to prophecy pro Jeff Kinley, and Jeff is a prolific author and really, does a great job talking about things related to Bible prophecy. I became acquainted with Jeff Kinley when I got his book on Noah. Was that a man called Noah? I'm trying to remember.
Jeff Kinley: Off topic as it was in the days of Noah.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, great, great book. I preached a sermon series, use that book, it's extensively in my preaching on Noah. So we're going to talk when we come back from the break. We're going to talk about America and America's future and the rapture of the church. It's exciting stuff. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here with, Jeff Kinley. We'll be right back. Don't go away.
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Jeff Chamblee: This is real truth for today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: And I'm talking to my friend Jeff Kinley, the prophecy pro and the host of the King is Coming TV program and a best selling author. Many, books, books on the days of Noah, books on Revelation, books on, the Olivet discourse. Great stuff, really deep stuff. And I, encourage you, pastors out there, Bible teachers, teach about the second coming of Jesus, teach about what the Bible says concerning what the future holds. Because as we just read at the top of the program, 1 Thessalonians 4, comfort 1 another with these words, the promise of the rapture of the church, the Lord coming again in the clouds and drawing us together to himself. That is the comfort of the church. Now Jeff, you've written extensively about the Rapture. The rapture gets a bad rap from many, in Christian circles. For some reason they don't like the idea of the Rapture. I don't get it. It's the blessed hope, but they seem to really push against that. why do people have a problem with the idea of the Lord coming before the Tribulation to rescue us from the wrath that is to come?
Jeff Kinley: Well, I think there are a couple reasons. I think one is just traditional denominationalism. Particular, churches have never really believed in the Rapture because of their interpretive method. they see just one coming of Christ at the second coming somewhere in the future. They, don't know when that's going to be. They, don't typically believe in a literal tribulation or a literal millennial kingdom either. I think a second reason is because of a lot of sensationalism related to the end times and related to Bible prophecy and the Rapture, date setting, you know, movies that have come out, things like that, sometimes they're a little bit on the cheesy side, you know, and people are like, oh gosh, I don't want to be associated with that. but people just making predictions of dates and people kind of getting glassy eyed about the end times and Bible prophecy. And then a third reason I think is because of a false narrative that's been propagated, by people that have had large platforms about the fact that or the idea that the Rapture was really invented by Jon Nelson Darby in the 1830s and that he sort of came up with the idea. And that is a, ah, theory that has been debunked hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. And yet people keep bringing it up. I often say it's kind of like keep saying the moon is made of green cheese. I think we've settled that. It's not made of green cheese. in the same way with this idea that Darby invented the Rapture, when we trace the belief in the imminent return of Christ, we go all the way back to the church fathers. And the church fathers believed in an imminent return, that Christ could come at any time. And then of course, just the scripture, itself and the pattern of God's deliverance throughout scripture and what the NewSong Testament says and the differences between the Rapture and the second Coming as described in Scripture in that passage that you talked about. So to me there are lots of reasons why, but I think too underlying all of that, it's just kind of a low grade fever of biblical illiteracy that's out there in the church today where most people don't know what they believe about anything. I mean, if you were to say when you pray the Lord's Prayer, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Wait a minute, what kingdom are you talking about? and they would go, well, I don't know, I guess just God being in charge somewhere. You know, I mean, they don't know about the Davidic kingdom and the Messianic kingdom that God has promised, Israel and promise for us to be into. So there's a lot of biblical ignorance out there. And Jeff, as you said, you know, just a moment ago, pastors need to know, they need to study about Bible prophecy. And that's one of the great privileges that I have in partnering with people like you, in events and conferences, but also pastors that say, look, I really don't know that much. About this. Here's this guy who does. And we're going to come together and learn together, as a body here through. So, lots of reasons out there, and that's why we keep teaching the truth.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Jeff. When we think about America in Bible prophecy, some people have tried to find America in Bible prophecy. I think it's pretty hard to do. Where's Waldo? I don't think Waldo is on the page. what's your take of America and Bible prophecy?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I wrote a book a few years ago, called the End of America, Bible Prophecy in a country in crisis. And in there I talk about just different ways people think they see America in Bible prophecy. Some, some people think that we're, Babylon in the last days, in particularly NewSong York City. some people think that we are, the one who comes in the eagle that rescues Israel or protects Israel in the last days. Others see us as, you know, part of the, the merchants of Tarshish, you know, in Ezekiel 38 and that type of thing. But, but to be honest, I mean, there are lots of countries that are not mentioned in the Bible in the last days. I mean, Bolivia is not mentioned. Canada is not mentioned. there are other superpowers that are not mentioned. But the countries that are talked about are countries that are really germane to the biblical narrative in the last days. the countries that come against Israel, Israel obviously itself. The nations that are surrounding Israel. And so those nations that are, relevant to the prophetic narrative, obviously God's going to talk about those things because the last days primarily is about Israel. So that's a reason why. And another reason why, I think, Jeff, is because the fact that when we think about the last days, and particularly the Rapture and its impact on America, I believe that America will no longer be a superpower, in the moments immediately following the Rapture, that we will be gutted, pretty much at every level of our culture and society. As believers are taken away and the restraining influence of evil is taken away. I believe this will open us up to vulnerability, to attack from, whether it be Islamic terrorist cells within or countries from without. I think it's going to open us up to a great attack. There's going to be chaos and confusion, there's going to be a leadership void in, the country. And so, lots of reasons why I believe that America is not really a player, in the last days. Now, I will say this. In defense of America, two things that we have been the greatest supporter and propagator of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the last 150 years. In that sense, we have played a part in the last days. And then secondly, with our alliance in support of Israel, at least in this administration, we have also, played a role in the last days in helping to defend and help Israel to survive.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Jeff, I had, Erwin Lutzer on the program some time ago, and I was asking him with the seven letters to the seven churches. You know, some. Some people say, well, those are. That's speaking to specific church ages. I, would. I can't remember if you hold to that or not. I'm thinking you don't. Am I right?
Jeff Kinley: yes, I do not hold to that.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so if you had to say, what letter would the USA get? the church in America today? Lutzer said he thought we were, more like Sardis asleep in the light than Laodicea. I can see us being kind of both, depending on which church you're looking at. where do you see America in those letters?
Jeff Kinley: Well, again, these letters were written to churches, and so it's, specifically speaking to the body of Christ. So if we're talking about the body of Christ in America today, then I would say that we would be very similar to Sardis. I wrote a book called Wake the Bride, essentially based on that very verse in Revelation 3, 2. but also see Laodicea as well. There's a lot of cultural Christianity in America today, as I mentioned, just biblical illiteracy. there are also churches that are very doctrinally sound, but they don't love Jesus. And so that's the church at Ephesus. There's, I think, as you see the churches, in Revelation 2 and 3, that you will find parallels in America all throughout American churches, to those seven churches as it relates to America as a country. I see us really found more In Romans, chapter one, verses 18 through 32, where we have rejected God as creator, rejected, His. The worship of Him. We've turned to. To basically worshiping the planet ourselves. There's been a sexual revolution, a homosexual revival, verse, 32. It gets to the point where God just gives us over to a depraved mind. We celebrate evil, we celebrate sin. we have a whole month called Pride Month. there's a lot of parallels in Romans 1 to where I see America today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, did you. You and I are about the same age, and as you begin to study Bible prophecy, you know, this idea. Thessalonians, there is going to be a falling away, an apostasy? I remember learning that when I was in College in the 80s, and it was hard for me to grasp how that could happen, but it seems like we are just seeing it unfold right before our eyes. People that we thought were solid, they are not solid. And, their theology has gone off the rails. I had Seth Gruber on the program a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about guys like Andy Stanley and others where they cave on things. Rick Warren caving on things that are very clear in scripture about the office of the pastor is reserved for men. That doesn't mean women are second class. It just means that's how God set it up. A man is to lead the home, not the wife and things like that. have you been surprised at how fast it seems like we are, we are apostatizing from the truth?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Dr. Mark Hitchcock and I wrote a book called the Coming Apostasy where we address that very issue. And what we found as we studied that very passage in 2 Thessalonians, is that that departure is a willful departure. it's a choice to stand away from the truth. That's what the word apostasy means to stand away from. And what we've seen, as you mentioned, people that were, you know, I went to. I was in seminary with Andy Stanley, I think he was in my class. but just to see people that have basically said this, the word of God is not sufficient. And it is. It really harkens back to Jeff, Genesis 3, where the very first lie about the word of God was a lie about the word of God. It, was. Has God really said. And so this apostasy that we see is all based upon doubting the word of God. and it's just not sufficient anymore, as you mentioned. It's not sufficient to tell us who should be pastors in the church. It's not sufficient about, on sexuality. it's not sufficient on marriage. It's not sufficient on morality. It's not even sufficient on the death of Christ. There's a, a growing conversation now where people are really beginning to doubt the idea of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ. that Christ really didn't die and pay for our sins. it was just a love gift that he gave to the father. And this moral example that he gave. I mean, there's all sorts of ways, ah, doctrinally and morally, that churches and that pastors and that people are apostatizing but we're seeing more and more and it really boils down to this. Not only are people doubting God's word, but I think too, Jeff, the fear of man and the fear of culture has caused a lot of pastors, church leaders, authors, podcasters, you know, TV show hosts to basically look around the world and go, now what's the going narrative here? And if I don't conform to this, I'm going to be so unpopular and canceled, perhaps even canceled in my ministry. So I have to accommodate these things. And so that's where it begins. It begins by just saying, hey, I don't think God's word really was relevant, you know, and we're just going to change it up a bit. And so it just highlights the point. Jeff, you know what Paul said in second Timothy, chapter four, preach the word in season and out of season, there's going to be times it's not going to be popular.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I totally agree. You know, one of the things that I, love about Ken Ham answers in Genesis, he takes the unpopular position. It's a young earth and thus says the Lord, that's how it was created. And even people, you know, William Laine Craig has caved on that. I don't know what his position was maybe 20, 30 years ago, but he comes out and says, yeah, it's billions of years old. And obviously you would never get that from reading the Bible. If you were born on a deserted island somewhere with just mom and dad and a Bible, you would never come up with evolution as how things came into being. So that's totally opposite of what the Bible teaches.
Jeff Kinley: It really is. And yes, I applaud Ken Ham for that. Ken and I actually co wrote a book together here several years ago. And one of the things that we discovered was that in the early stages of a, kid's development in the church is where they begin to stray from the truth of God's word. And so it's no longer the atheist professor that's shaking the faith of the college freshman Christian. That's happening really as early as age 13 or even below that. And so I applaud people like Ken and others. I wrote an autobiography of the man who invented the mri, a brilliant doctor who was up for the Nobel Prize, but they found out that he believed in a literal six day creation and so they blackballed him from getting the Nobel Prize. But as you mentioned, some apologists out there who, who are, some of them are very brilliant at arguing for the defense of the faith. But because they lean so heavily on the principles of logic and of science, they put that template over their Bible. And they fail to realize that God is above science. God invented the laws of science, and sometimes he transcends the laws of science. For example, speaking the entire universe into existence in a millisecond. It's just hard for us to believe, because of our prideful minds. But God's an infinite guy to do anything he wants to, that's for sure.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Jeff, as we think about the rapture of the church, we don't know when that's coming. The Bible doesn't tell us when it's coming. It kind of gives us the season of when it's coming. Just in the last minute and a half that we have before the break. Could you imagine a scenario where we are 50 years away from the Rapture, or do you think it is very imminent?
Jeff Kinley: I always look to Second Peter, three, nine, when I think about the timing of the Rapture, because it says the Lord is not slack concerning his promises. Some count slackness or slowness, but it's patient, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. And I always think of it this way, is that everything in the world is pointing towards, the coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation. We're seeing the signs of the tribulation now in formation. But the Rapture hasn't happened yet. And as Dr. Jon Walvoor used to always say, it's like walking through the grocery store and you hear Christmas music playing. But Thanksgiving hasn't come yet. Well, that tells you Thanksgiving is closer than it's ever been before. So in terms of years, it's hard to imagine. God's patience, I think, is holding back the dam of his judgment right now. but the Rapture could come before we end this program, or it could come several years from now. so it's hard to put, just parameters on that. It all boils down to the patience and the plan, the providential plan of God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. We're talking to Dr. Jeff Kinley. We're talking about Bible prophecy, Iran, America, and the Rapture. When we come back from the break, we'll take your calls. 888-589-8840. That's 888-589-8840. If you have a question or comment, give us a call. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve on afr.
Jeff Chamblee: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff. Email Pastor jeffromhishheart.org Now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here I'm talking to my friend Dr. Jeff Kinley, a, ah, leading voice in Bible prophecy. He is the host of the Prophecy Pro podcast and also the King is Coming TV program and written many great books on the second coming of Jesus Christ and all the that the Bible tells us about the future. Jeff, what is the percentage of the Bible that is dedicated, to Bible prophecy? It's a huge percentage.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, it's anywhere from 28 to 30% of the Bible was, prophetic at the time it was written. So almost a third of all Scripture.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, we are doing ourselves a great disservice if we don't study that and learn what is coming. a question I had, Jeff. I preached on a Wednesday night series the book of Zechariah, which is not easy. Zechariah is very, very difficult. Prophets like that, him in particular. How much do you think he understood of what he was writing?
Jeff Kinley: That's a great question. I, think as you put all of Scripture together, you'll find that the prophetic writers were given just a piece of the puzzle. And I always liken it to this. Jeff is like during World War II they had this thing called the Manhattan Project and they had different plants in Tennessee and Chicago and other parts of the country and they were working on, ah, specific aspects of the atomic bomb, but none of them knew it was the atomic bomb. They just knew I'm making some sort of, you know, vacuum glass tube or whatever that contributes toward a process, in that, in that whole development of the bomb. Then eventually when the bomb was released, they knew, okay, we're all working on this thing together. I think that in some ways is how the prophets understood. You know, people talk about how the prophets saw sort of the mountain peaks of Bible prophecy as they looked down through the corridor of time. They couldn't see the valleys of what some of the other prophets were to write ahead of them. And also the valley of the church and this dispensation that we're in right now. So there were a lot of things they couldn't understand, but each of them were given a role to play. and Micah knew about Bethlehem, Isaiah knew about the suffering servant, and Zechariah knew about the second Coming. So there are different ways that it comes together. We now sit in a very privileged place in history where we have the completed revelation of God, the completed scripture, we can see it all. We get the Google Earth view and we get to study the bark on the tree. So we get everything that the prophets didn't get.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so as it relates, and that's a great answer as it relates to the Rapture in the Old Testament, Adrian Rogers preached about Enoch being taken up before the flood. that could be a veiled reference to the Rapture. Do you see any other references to the Rapture in the Old Testament?
Jeff Kinley: I think what we have is we have illustrations of God's deliverance of his people before he brings judgment. Obviously Enoch was one of those. I think Noah in the ark was another indication of that. certainly Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah was perhaps the clearest, preview or pre illustration of what we now know as the Rapture. When Abraham was speaking to the angels in Genesis 18, Abraham argued on the basis of the character of God. He said, God, you cannot punish the righteous with the wicked. It's just against your character. And essentially the angel of the Lord there agreed with him and so then said, okay, well if I find this many righteous, I won't punish, the city. But what he did was he removed the righteous out of Sodom and Gomorrah and then brought the judgment. that is the pattern of God's deliverance in the Old Testament. And it certainly does illustrate what we now see as a pre tribulational rapture.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Okay, so reaching the youth of America, I know that's on your heart. Tell us a little bit about that.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we were invited. Todd Hampson, my other prophecy pro, partner, was invited to come out to Chino Hills, to do a first ever youth prophecy conference. their youth ministry wanted to do that. They're great teaching pastors out there. And we had no idea who would show up or if anyone would show up. Well, 900 students, showed up at this thing. there were dozens of decisions for Christ. Do we deepen them in the scriptures and Bible prophecy and the hope found in the return of Christ? And Jack and his staff said, hey, let's do, let's do it again next year. So last year we came back, 1100 students showed up. 201 students gave their hearts to Jesus Christ. Discipleship was happened. Jeff, they were dialed in from word one. there's a manual they get, they were taking notes. they're asking the most substantive questions during our Q and A time. So we're going back in November to do it a third time. But out of that grew and was launched a vision a M ministry called Future Hope. And Future Hope exists to train students and to train youth pastors on how to understand, eschatology for, youth pastors, how to teach it even for pastors. And so, we are, are developing. We've got conferences scheduled, in grand, Rapids. We got one in Minnesota. we're going to Mark Hitchcock's church next year, Gary Hamrick's church. we'll be in Houston, next year as well, at a church. So, we're doing these youth conferences there. And it's just giving students not only hope for the future in the midst of chaotic and uncertain times, but it gives them a hope to share with their friends, to help them understand, hey, this is not all that there is. Christ is coming back. Here's how you can know him.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, we're going to the phone lines at 888-589-8840 and we have Jim on the line from NewSong Jersey. Jim, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Yeah, the question is, since 70 A.D. has Israel ever repented?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, so in 70 A.D. is essentially when Jerusalem fell under General Titus and the, Jews began to be scattered. And then 135 A.D. hadrian essentially banned all Jews from Israel. no, national repentance of Israel has not happened. the process of their salvation is first to be regathered to the land, which began, really began in the 1800s, but. But 1948 became a nation again. But Scripture indicates that they will call upon the name of the Lord According to Zechariah, 14, at the end of the tribulation period. And at that time, that's when national repentance of Israel I believe, will happen, scripturally. Yeah, good question.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Thank you, Jim. Anything else on that?
Caroline: does that affect our attitude towards Israel today if. If they have not repented, since 70 A.D. or actually before that?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
Jeff Kinley: Yes, good. Good question. Yeah, I think it does affect our attitude toward Israel. I think, number one, it ought to give us a sense of urgency to reach Jews with the gospel of Jesus Christ, individual Jews, both in Israel and in our own country and around the world. And then secondly to, reinforce and recommit ourselves to support national Israel's right to exist and to bless them. not to agree with all the things that they do, of course, but according to Genesis 12:3, that God will bless those who bless Israel. Curse those who curse them. So there is I think, and Jim, you highlight an interesting point. The tension that Christians may feel in national Israel that's really agnostic or atheist or secular and our mandate, to bless the Jews and to reach them with the gospel. So we live with that tension. but as I said earlier in the program, we support their right to exist according to God's promise. There are unfulfilled covenants and promises God has made to Israel. and we believe those covenants and that kingdom will come to pass.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Hey Jeff, just curious. I know you spent a good bit of time in Jerusalem and surrounding areas when you wrote the book the End of the World According to Jesus of Nazareth. How were you treated by the Jews as a believer?
Jeff Kinley: it was just amazing. I mean I was treated with, with such kindness, such compassion. I mean there was such an openness because they know we don't hate them and it's like, you know, when you find someone who is actually going to be nice to you. We had an encounter with a young 20 something year old Jewish young man. He said, I came to America. I couldn't believe I was so afraid because I thought I was going to be attacked and I was, was so welcomed by so many people. Of course that narrative fluctuates, but no, we were very welcomed there. While we were there in Israel, we had a chance this past January to go back to Jerusalem to shoot a bunch of video and teaching materials. we had the privilege of interviewing Ambassador, Mike Huckabee and have a private interview with him which we posted on our, on our channel. And but no, it's real welcoming. I mean the shop and stores and restaurants and places you go, Israel is one of the most welcoming places I've ever been to.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, thank you Jim. I appreciate the call. We have Archie on the line from Texas. Archie, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Question, basically asking for comment on the veil, or the eyes of the, of the Jewish people. it kind of, kind of brings in some compassion and patience with me to understand what they're having to go through. And the other half of the question is not related but is the Shema something that a foundation for something that's about to happen or to bring to understanding.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Jeff, could you hear that? He's talking about.
Jeff Kinley: I couldn't quite.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The veil over the eyes of the Jews right now. Should we have compassion on them. So since they are blinded to the Truth?
Caroline: Yeah.
Jeff Kinley: Hebrews, excuse me, Romans 11:25 says that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles will come in. And that fullness of the Gentiles, I believe, refers to the fruition and the maturation of the church at the Rapture. And so, yeah, it's interesting that the Bible says that Pharaoh hardened his heart and then God hardened his heart. and so I think what we've seen with the Jewish people, really, beginning with their rejection of Messiah, nationally speaking, there's been a hardness of heart among the Jewish people. And so it ought to just really motivate us to pray, to find effective ways to bless, to serve in a Christian way, Jewish people, and to find the most effective ways to really share the gospel, with them. And then what was the second part
Pastor Jeff Schreve: of the question, Archie, that was about the Shema, correct?
Caroline: Yeah. I wondered what would be the foundation for people to understand the Trinity?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The foundation for people to understand the Trinity in the shema in Deuteronomy 6.
Jeff Kinley: Yeah. So basically, you know, the Jewish people as being one of the great monotheistic religions, they probably didn't understand completely the full revelation of the character and the nature of God. because Scripture is a progressive revelation. Of course, we have all the way back in Genesis 1:26, let us, create man, in our own image. but if you would have asked, even Thomas, the disciple who put his hands in the side of Jesus and declared, my Lord and my God, if you would have took a timeout and said, hey, Thomas, explain to us the doctrine of the Trinity. Thomas would have said, what are you talking about? You know, so, you know, I mean, just their understanding and a progression and a procession of understanding. in fact, the word Trinity wasn't even invented until the 4th century. And so our theology, our doctrine, and the history of doctrine throughout the church ages is a progression of understanding. And as we finally got the completed Word of God into the hands of the common people, thanks to people like Wycliffe and Luther and people like that, then more Christians were able to understand and articulate the doctrine that's found in the Bible. And so that's why we say things like, well, the word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the teaching of the triune God is. the word missions is not in the Bible, but we believe in a mandate of missions and, and other things like that. And so, understanding that the Jews were given a partial revelation and it grew over time. They didn't know the name of Messiah, what he would be called. They, didn't know where he would be born until Micah told them. So it's a progression and we have to understand that as we study those passages in the Old Testament.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Jeff, what would you say to the person, you know, when you study Bible prophecy, you know that the Lord's kingdom is not of this world. we have people today talk about Christian nationalism and you know, you guys are all promoting, America and wanting to support America when the Lord's kingdom is not America. how do you reconcile those two? Because obviously, if we let America just go away, that has implications and ramifications for the gospel around the world. How do you see that?
Jeff Kinley: Yeah, I mean as I see the foundation of our country and we see how we were founded upon solid Judeo Christian principles, many of the founders were Christians and the society that we were in, I mean we experienced revivals in our country. There's so much good about the nature of America and its founding. obviously we've seen America really drift from that, dramatically and have a dramatic downturn morally. And so when I talk about my country, I talk about what I want my country to be, not only what I see that my country is right now. So I am a patriot. I love my country, but I don't love it with glassy eyed blank check sort of, perspective. we see the bumps, the bruises, the warts. We see where we're at sliding in so many different areas. So we have to temper that and to realize that the Bible says in Philippians 3 that our citizenship is in heaven and that that's where we're really going to be. We're just visiting America right now, but eventually we're going to be in heaven together. So let's make America as biblical and godly as we possibly can through individuals, coming to Christ and through having impact in our society through government and things like that. But, but in the end, what's going to change America is not government. It's going to be the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, my guest has been prophecy pro Dr. Jeff Kinley. And Jeff, where can they check out your website and materials and things? Yeah, just jeffkinley.com jeffkinley.com with an E in there. K I N L E Y. Well thanks for listening to Real Truth for today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I'm your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve. I'll be with you again tomorrow. Go out today, shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you, and God will use you as his witness. God bless you.
1 Thessalonians 4:13–18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
In this episode, Pastor Jeff Schreve is joined by Bible prophecy teacher Dr. Jeff Kinley for an insightful conversation about Israel, Iran, the rapture, and the future of America. Together they examine what Scripture says about God's continuing plan for Israel, the rise of apostasy within the church, and how current events may be shaping the stage for the last days.
Dr. Kinley explains the importance of understanding Bible prophecy, addresses common misconceptions about Israel and replacement theology, and discusses why believers should live with hope and expectation as they await Christ's return. The conversation also highlights the growing interest in prophecy among younger generations and the need for Christians to remain grounded in God's Word during uncertain times.
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