Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good morning, and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Hope you're having a wonderful Thursday morning. Psalm 90:12 says this, so teach us to number our days that we may present to you a heart of wisdom. It's good to, see that life is brief. And as you number your days, you see, okay, these days are going by, you know, your life is made up of so much time. When we talk about people killing time, well, I'm killing time. killing time is just committing suicide by degrees because you only have so much time. The psalmist moses in Psalm 90, Lord, teach me to number my days. Teach me to see how, how few, hours I have so that I can present to you a heart of wisdom. Now, somebody that helps me have a heart of wisdom is my friend Dr. Phil Cook. He's a media producer. He's a writer, speaker, consultant, founder and CEO of Cook Media Group. And, he sends out emails, every couple of weeks or so, and, about faith, media, and culture. One of the ones I read yesterday really caught my eye. It said, why every church needs a wise gray hair on staff. And so I wanted to talk to him about that and other things. So. Dr. Phil, can you hear me?
Frank Gaffney: I can hear you.
Caroline: I'm good.
Frank Gaffney: Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right. You're the guy that, never ages. You always look like you're getting younger and younger.
Frank Gaffney: Well, I worry sometimes it'll all happen at once. I'll just wake up in the morning and boom. I don't know. It's getting. Things don't work the way they used to, I can tell you that. Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I think you're a couple years ahead of me. Not a whole lot, but a couple. And so, I did, when you sent out in the very first article, you always have, three or four little things for, leaders that are very helpful. So why every church needs a wise Gray hair on staff. I loved that. And, so I read that article and, explained to our listeners, especially our pastors and deacons that are in listening audience, why is that important?
Frank Gaffney: Well, you know, going back to the Bible, if Moses had not listened to his father in law, Jethro, he might have worked himself to death. Jethro actually had a solution because he'd been there before. I think a lot of situations, you know, I love being surrounded by the young guys. I love being surrounded by creativity and innovation. But sometimes there needs to be a voice that says, we've done that before, we've tried it, and it didn't work, or here's the way it could work. That voice of experience really does matter. And so I've seen so many churches lose amazing leaders simply because they hit retirement age and they felt like it was time to move on. And I just think that, it would be a good idea for any. And this could work at a company, it could work at a nonprofit or a ministry church, whatever. Just having that voice, I think is so, so important.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, Phil, it's really interesting. Back in the day, so I was a big UCLA fan. My brother went to ucla and I love Jon Wooden and read, a lot of things about him. So back in the day, he, he retired in 1975. He was almost 65 years old. Because UCLA had a, had a policy that as soon as you hit 65, you were out. And so even a guy, probably the greatest college basketball coach in the history of basketball, had to retire because he was 65. we don't have that anymore. And, so I was going to ask you this. How do you feel about that, especially as it relates to pastors? What is a good rule of thumb as guys get older? you know, some guys, we hear this phrase, hey, he stayed too long.
Frank Gaffney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How do you counsel guys with that?
Frank Gaffney: That's a great question, because I've also written blog posts about recognizing that it's time to step down. And sometimes the greatest act of leadership you can do is to do exactly that. Step down. There are leaders that, you know, you find it often with founding leaders. I've often seen leaders that will hang on until you pry their cold, dead hand off the steering wheel. And, it's just too long. So I do think we need to recognize that. But at the same time, you know, you mentioned Jon Wooden. I'm on the, I've been on. Served on the board of the Salvation army, which I think is one of the Great organizations in the world. My wife has been on their board. And, they have a mandatory retirement age even today of 65. And theoretically, it's to let open doors for younger leaders to step up and do their thing. However, I see these amazing leaders who I think we'd all agree at 65, you're just at the peak of your leadership. They often will have to. They're forced out, and they go to other organizations and they lead other ministries and other organizations. So I just think we need to rethink the whole 65 retirement thing. Anyway. I just think that so many people are so wise at that time. So, anyway, I think experience does matter.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. And then, on the other side of that coin, then you have people. Mitch McConnell comes to mind. I don't know how many years ago he died, but, I mean, his Weekend at Bernie's, not to be rude, but I mean, he needs to retire when you're in that kind of shape. Obviously, Joe Biden was in no position to run for president, and he really didn't run. He had his name out there. But, how do you think an organization. Phil. Should go about that? When you do have the founding pastor, let's say, and he's not thinking about retirement and everybody El. Else is. How do you broach that subject with him?
Frank Gaffney: You know, leadership is hard, as you know, Jeff, it's hard. And very often we need to sit down and have those come to Jesus meetings with. With bosses, leaders, pastors, CEOs, and just talk about. Look, it's time to. We. We need to start thinking about succession. Succession is a part of that conversation, because I think most pastors don't think about it until it's too late. when you're. When you raise up somebody to be the next leader at your church, the congregation needs to know that person. They need to be familiar with that person. They need to like that person, have a relationship. It's not something that you could just say, okay, guess what? Next Sunday we're going to have Bob Thompson step in and be the pastor. Now, that's just too much of a shock for everybody. So I think these things need to be thought out way ahead of time. And in most cases, they're not. I actually had a pastor call me into his office one day. he was theoretically preparing the way for his son to take over the church. And I came in and was helping them update their television ministry and got a great book deal for his son. And the Pastor, who was 88 at the time, called me into his office and was so angry, he was shaking. He said, so you're the guy that's destroyed my ministry? And I said, what are you talking about? He said, you think because you've got this great book deal for my son and you're helping change the television program, there's any room for me in ministry anymore? And I wanted to say, you're 88. You know, maybe it's time to step down, relax, go to pasture. but he was so. He was shaking. He was so angry. So we. There are people that just refuse to let go. And I think sometimes we just need to have that hard conversation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. And you know what I've noticed, Phil, over the years? I'm 64 years old, and I've been at first, Baptist, going on 24 years in February. when you're younger, you're organically connected with kids, organically connected to every area of the church, Children's ministry, student ministry, and things like that. As you get older, your kids are grown and gone. Unless you have grandkids coming through there, you're not as organically connected. And it can make it harder, because you don't relate as well. how do you counsel guys like me that, maybe don't relate as well because we're in our 60s as we did when we were in our 40s?
Frank Gaffney: You know, at that point, you have to be intentional. Jon. Jon Maxwell had a great phrase called walk, the factory floor. And for CEOs, leaders, pastors, the point was, get out there. Be intentional about getting out there, meeting your team, meeting the employees, that sort of thing. And I say, in a situation like you're talking about, you'd have to be intentional about engaging with the younger people. Go in and talk to them, Go in and teach, be casual with them. Show up at summer camp every once in a while. make intentional efforts. Because the truth is, those kids would love you. They will love you. They want the respect and relationship with an older leader like that. And so we just have to be much more. I totally get what you mean, because I'm the same way. I have to be much more intentional in reaching out to younger people and listening to young ideas. And the thing is, the younger people on the team are going to have some dumb things to say, because you and I have been there. We've heard these things before. But they need a voice. We need to let them speak up, have a voice, and we need to be intentional about that, or they're going to feel alienated and not Feel like there's a place for them there.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Phil, you've spent a career on dealing, with optics and situations. And when the house is on fire, what do you do? Those kinds of things? Well, Everybody's talking about Dr. Fauci yesterday on Capitol Hill. He pled the Fifth. 111 times, something like that. give me your opinion on the optics of that, decision.
Frank Gaffney: Well, they're obviously not good. I think even though a lot of the Democrat leaders are standing up for him and trying to defend him, I think even them, when they go home m at night, they talk to their wives and husbands and say, man, this guy is on fire. He's burning. He's crashing. particularly when your diary gives you away, when your own email. This is a real word for leaders, by the way, that, you know, Google says if you have Gmail and many of the other email servers are the same way. Even if you delete an email, it never really goes away. And in a court situation, they can be pulled up text messages the same way. And so a lot of the indictment is not just his personal diary, but his emails. They're pulling emails from years ago that's indicting him. And so we have to be really careful that we are in public, who we are in private. That's so important. And I think what he's showing is that he wasn't that same guy. I mean, he was out trying to book appearance media appearances and make money at it. He had his staff doing it, which is illegal. And so I just think that, he's. He's really setting himself on fire here. It's not so much the investigation. It's his own words. And when they use your own words to indict you, boy, that can be. That could be very, very damning. And I think that's the situation he's in right now.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, in trying to protect his legacy, he's trashing his legacy by not answering the questions. so if he hired Phil Cook, as opposed to all the bank of lawyers that he had, what would you have told him to do?
Frank Gaffney: Well, I always believe in honesty. I always believe in honesty. I think taking the Fifth looks really, really bad. And I'm sure, you know, lawyers are not there to save your reputation. They're there to keep you out of jail. This is a good word for pastors and ministry leaders right now, that if you have a crisis in your church, whether it's some kind of a sexual abuse situation, a financial situation, some other kind of a Crisis lawyers are there to keep you out of jail, not to save your reputation. Communication people, experts in communication, are there to help save your reputation. And so it doesn't mean that saving your reputation is about lying. It's about telling the truth, actually. And I think that I'm not a big. Pleading the fifth guy. I think that you need to get up there and, it's funny, they have clips of him. I've seen that. They're playing from news shows from years ago where he said, hey, I will defend all of my actions. I'm happy to defend them. And yet now he's not doing it. So I think that he should step up. If I was advising him, I would say, look, you need to talk to these guys. And, and, you know, be very, very careful about invoking the fifth. That's just a very dangerous tactic.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I want to play you a clip, Phil, of somebody that you know very well about what, a team, really wants in a leader, because this fits.
Caroline: Okay.
Frank Gaffney: Hi, this is Phil Cook with a quick pro tip for leaders. You know, your team doesn't expect perfection, but they do expect character. They expect integrity. You can show integrity and character in everything you do. Every phone call, every meeting, every task, every project. You don't have to be perfect as a leader. Don't get hung up on that. So often leaders hold back because they're worried about making a mistake. Worry less about making a mistake and think more about how I can show my character, my integrity in this situation, because that's what really inspires them to do remarkable things. Well, that guy's a genius now, whoever that is.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Phil, I had a,
Frank Gaffney: I was working recently with a guy who was. So. He was such a perfectionist as a leader. I was consulting with a big M ministry recently.
Caroline: He.
Frank Gaffney: The leader was such a perfectionist that he was afraid to make a decision he could not. He was paralyzed because he was so afraid of making a mistake. And it, dawned on me that, look, your team and his team, in the meanwhile, is just looking. What do we do? What do we.
Caroline: What do we.
Frank Gaffney: What decisions do we make? What actions do we take? That they were paralyzed as well? So I just think it's more important to realize that character matters, obviously, in life. And, you know, at the end of your days, they're not going to be looking back on the mistakes you made or the, you know, what a perfectionist you were. They're gonna go back and say, wow, that guy had real character. That woman had real character, real integrity. And I think that's, that's what matters for the long haul. If you want to leave a lasting legacy, that's the way to do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, everybody's gonna mess up. There's no perfect leader. And I've always, you know, if you mess up, you fess up. If you lose your temper in a meeting, which can happen, it, can happen to anybody, can happen to pastors, apologize and, you know, whoever is in that meeting say, hey, I lost my cool, I'm sorry. That goes, I've done that personally just in the last six months. And that goes so far in elevating you in the minds of those people because they say, wow, that guy made it right. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to my friend Dr. Phil Cook. And we'll be back with more on American Family Radio.
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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here talking to my friend Dr. Phil Cooke, founder and CEO of Cook Media Group. A media producer, a writer, he's got some great books, speaker consultant, and we're talking about leaders, and leadership and leaders having wisdom. Wisdom is seeing life from God's perspective. The lord says in James 1:5, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all m men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. if a leader doesn't have wisdom, that leader can make some terrible decisions. Now Phil, we were talking at the break cracker Barrel hired a lady relatively young. She looked like she was in her 40s. Julie Fels Massineaux, who went on Good Morning America just a few years ago. We're totally changing Cracker Barrel. We're not your father's Oldsmobile anymore, that kind of thing. what a disaster that was. It was not quite Bud Light, but Bud Light esque. And, found out very quickly that she didn't do her homework to determine who eats here and what do they like about the place. Weigh in on that whole debacle.
Frank Gaffney: Yeah, you know, sometimes you can, First of all, I think she was a DEI hire. I think that was during that era when everybody was trying to hire younger women, minorities, people, you know, out of the ordinary, anything but a white dude. And, I think they overstepped their bounds a little bit and brought in somebody who, to me, she looked like she'd never been in the Cracker Barrel store. She didn't embody the type of customer they have. She didn't look like the type of customer they have. She didn't talk like them. And it's funny when I've seen her on a number of news shows where she. They said, well, did you actually ask customers, did you do surveys? And she kind of hedged that question and said, well, I thought this and I thought that, and I felt like this. And it just seemed to me that she was not out there in the thick of things asking the people that go to Cracker Barrel. And so she obviously over overstepped. She over branded. She got rid of Uncle Herschel, my favorite dish at Cracker Barrel, let me just say that. And, she just went way too far. And we can do that. We can do it in churches, we can do it in nonprofits, we can do it in businesses. We can overstate, you know, in our efforts to try to update and be hip and be contemporary, which I think is important, sometimes we can just overstep and we forget what the DNA of the organization really is and who the members are and what we're representing and what we're doing. So I think she was just insensitive to that. And I think they should have probably gotten rid of her a long time ago. And the reason not to be harsh, but, you know, a leader embodies the organization. The leader is the visual representative of that organization. He or she is the bottom line. And so I think sometimes, if the damage is so great, you've got to remove that person from the equation and bring in somebody new to revitalize the organization. And there have been situations where pastors in a crisis needed to step down to take all the attention because they were just sucking up all the attention. And, it was just too damaging to keep them in place. So sometimes people need to move on.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, let me shift that to, the church world. So in the news, Second Baptist Church of Houston, huge church and doct. Ed Young was the pastor there for 40, I think 47 years, 48 years, something like that. tremendous. Had a lot of credibility, had a lot of trust built up. But they changed the bylaws. People thought they did that in a kind of a clandestine way and gave all the power to just a group, took it away from the church. He installed his son Ben as the pastor. The church didn't get to vote or anything like that. Well, they got sued, a group in the church and not. I, knew one of the guys that was doing that, and he was the CEO of Conoco. He's not some, you know, Joe Blow off the street. He was Ed Young's personal prayer partner. I mean, he was a big time guy. Archie Dunham. Well, they lost in court, which is not surprising because the courts don't want to get involved in church squabbles as they look at it. But Phil, from your perspective, the church wins, but does the church really win?
Frank Gaffney: No, not at all. Not at all. In situations like that, I think transparency is the thing to remember. so often when we're making decisions, policy changes, anything in a church or a nonprofit, we have to remember that when we're not transparent, people start guessing at what's going on. And trust me, they always guess worse than what's really happening.
Caroline: And.
Frank Gaffney: Excuse me, that's why I think so, so strongly about being honest about things. If you're in a crisis, be honest, be up front, be transparent, because that takes the ammo away from your critics. And I think that there was just a lot of stuff going on. As you said, it sounded shady. I don't know all the details of what happened, but from an outsider, it just doesn't sound legitimate. It sounds like something weird is going on here and that makes people start talking, it makes people start wondering. And so I think, my advice is always be transparent. Be upfront in these things. If the congregation doesn't buy into it, you're going to have a split. Things are going to get horrible. And like you say, I think that Ben and the leadership team is going to be in a tough place from this point on.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I was telling my staff just yesterday, you know, bigger is not always better. And you know, he's got a huge shirt. I wouldn't trade with him for anything.
Frank Gaffney: No, no. Bigger is not always better. You're exactly right. Particularly for a second gen. Now let me say this. I've written, I've read on my blog about the fact that a next generation leader that succeeds a legend, you know, if you're succeeding a guy, like Ed Young, Ed Young Senior, let me tell you that that's a tough gig. No matter who you are, you may be a son, you may be a genius, whoever you are. It's always difficult leading, following. Let me say that following a legendary leader. So that, that's, you know, that's part of the situation there too. And it's always very, very tough. They have to be very strategic in how they do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so we've, we've had, in the church world, we've had a lot of really heavy, hitting pastors. Big name Pastor W.A. criswell comes to mind.
Caroline: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Following him didn't go well for Joel Gregory, and it was several. how can that go? Well, if you are the guy that's following a living legend, so to speak, how do you do that? Joshua did a good job following Moses, although he was scared to death.
Frank Gaffney: He did.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But what do you think is the formula for that?
Frank Gaffney: That next generation leader needs to have the trust of the people in the organization. whether it's a church or a ministry or nonprofit or whoever, they need to have that trust. And that trust is only built because he or she came on the scene early and was so called blessed by the founding pastor and they had a relationship ahead of time. And everybody knows this person is going to be the next leader and they have time to adapt to that and get used to that. I can't say enough about bringing on a next generation leader early because it really does build up trust with people. They get used to that person. Makes a dramatic difference. In fact, it happens so little. Very often the guy that succeeds is the third leader. The third leader. Because usually after a legendary leader, the next person crashes and burns and it's just so difficult. And then the leader that comes in after that person appears, to save everything, they get a lot of respect. So it's a tough gig all around. But I think the key is bringing that person on early enough that everybody gets comfortable, get used to them. And that takes some years, to do, but it's often so, so, so
Pastor Jeff Schreve: much better, you know, Phil, I think with younger guys, especially younger pastors, they don't realize about the trust factor. And it takes time.
Frank Gaffney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You, you can't just walk in with trust. People have to get to know you. And, and if you make, if you make major decisions and they don't trust you, the other guy could have done that and they wouldn't have said boo about it.
Caroline: It.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But you do it and they're grilling you.
Frank Gaffney: Yeah. I've often said that a guy like Billy Graham could have committed some pretty terrible sins in his life. He could have done some really dumb things in his career, but the trust factor was so strong about Billy and his ministry that people would have forgiven him. And I think that trust, that bank of goodwill that you build with people really, really does matter. And irrigation, you've hit on a really important thing because we cannot build enough trust. We need to have trust with people. And you're right. New leaders, they don't start it from day one. It doesn't happen from day one. It takes time and maybe a few crisis and difficult times to get through when people start to trust you and they know that your interest is their interest, and they're going to give you a lot more credibility. Makes a big difference.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Phil, I know you, very gracious with your time, but, you got to go tell, our listeners how they can connect with you, especially to get your emails because you have some great stuff in there.
: Sure.
Frank Gaffney: I have a blog at Phil Cook.com, i'm Cook with an E P H I L C O O K e dot com and on that, that homepage, you can sign up every week to get an email of my best blog posts I've written that week. That way you don't even have to visit my website. but yeah, I'm an inventor. I cannot help but write. I write like crazy. I've done 11 books and I'm working on another 12th one. And, I just, I really love it. But everything comes out on my blog first. So that is the place to find out what I'm thinking and, and where everything is. So I'd encourage people go to phil cooke.com and thank you, by the way, Jeff, I always enjoy being on the show. This is fantastic. You, you're you. You ask very great, very timely questions.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, thanks, brother. What's that? So give me a preview of the new book.
Frank Gaffney: it's on things that leaders never notice. maybe it's because I spent the money first part of my career behind A camera. As a media producer, I've seen things that leaders just completely miss. And I think that leaders need to be much more observant, aware, discerning. Discerning is a word we use a lot in the church. We don't use it a lot in the secular world, but it's an important word. Being able to discern things, seeing things that other people miss. I think that really separates a leader from the rest of the pack. And so I want to write a book that's going to help leaders understand what they should be noticing, what they shouldn't be noticing, what they need to see that other people maybe are missing. I think that's a really important issue in this digital distracted world we live in today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. I look forward to reading that, my friend. Thanks so much, Phil. We'll do it again.
Caroline: Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: God bless.
Caroline: Take care.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, everybody is talking about the, Anthony Fauci situation, and it was hard to turn away. I was watching it on YouTube yesterday as I was doing some other things. And you, know, to hear a guy just, over and over 100. I think it was 111. Somebody said 120. I don't know. I didn't count him. It was over 100. To hear him just say, I, plead the fifth. I plead the fifth. I love what, Josh Hawley did with him, concerning pleading the fifth.
: Let's try something. What day of the week is it today?
Frank Gaffney: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution.
: What color tie are you wearing?
Frank Gaffney: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
: What color is the carpet in front of you?
Frank Gaffney: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
: Let's just get one thing straight. You don't have any rights under the fifth amendment because you've been pardoned. As you very well know, as the supreme court has been clear for a century and more. Brown versus Walker, 1896. When he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege. You know that. Your lawyer is sitting behind you now, shifting nervously in their chairs. They know it. This isn't about the Constitution. This isn't about the law. This is about contempt. Contempt for this body and contempt for the American people.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Touche. I like Josh Hawley a lot. He doesn't pull any punches. But you, know, as Phil Cook said, The optics, are terrible. When you're pleading the fifth, you just look guilty. Now, the Fifth amendment is in there to, protect somebody. You can't, you know, incriminate yourself, but, you know, you're 85 years old. you're probably not going to be around too much longer. I mean, how many more years do you got? Ah, life for Anthony Fauci. You need to remember this. For a normal person, the average person, you wouldn't want to be that guy. because you talk about your name being mudd. Now, to the liberals, you know, he's their hero. Somebody, posted, you know, he's. I don't care what you say. Dr. Fauci is still a hero. And I said, in response, I said, well, when you call good evil and evil good, and substitute light for darkness and darkness for light. Isaiah, chapter 5, verse 20. The villains are the heroes, and that's the upside down world we live in. Senator Ted Cruz was asked about Dr. Fauci and, and, his non testimony on Capitol Hill. This is what he had to say.
Steve Jordahl: Years from now, they'll look back and say, what collective madness overtook this country?
Frank Gaffney: If I ask you about Fauci and the effort to hold him in contempt.
Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
Frank Gaffney: Do you support it?
Steve Jordahl: Absolutely. look, I think Anthony Fauci has had contempt for Congress and contempt for the American people for decades. His diary shows that he deliberately lied to the American people over and over and over again. In his diary, he wrote early on that it was clear that the Cove virus did not come from the wet market in Wuhan. And then he turned around and said exactly the opposite thing on national television. In his diary, he brags about convincing. Convincing Democrats in NewSong York and California to shut schools down. And yet he goes on TV and says, oh, I wasn't for shutdowns. That level of contempt and dishonesty is disgraceful. And Dr. Fauci ought to think about what it says about the end of his career, that what he will be remembered for the most is pleading the fifth. More than 100 times, he's been the most damaging bureaucrat in the history of America. And I will say the school shutdowns, which Fauci bragged that he was responsible for, may well be the single most destructive public policy step we've seen in decades. That learning loss will stick with those kids the rest of their lives.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: That was Senator Ted Cruz talking about Dr. Fauci. You know, as far as being a liar, here's what the Lord has to say. The second to the last chapter of the Bible, Revelation, chapter 21. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second, second death. All liars. Lying is a terrible sin. Where you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. When we come back from the break, we'll be taking your calls. 888-589-8840. That's triple 858-9840. If you have a question or a comment, love to hear from you. This is Real Truth for today on American Family Radio. And, the last say segment that we always hold out for calls is always a lot of fun. So give me a call and let's talk.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Have you ever been to Israel? Well, I'm leading a trip to Israel April 2nd through the 11th, 2027, and I'd love for you to, go with me. And so we're going to have a great time walking where Jesus walked. And that's April 2nd through the 11th, 2027. You can find out all the details at from his heart dot org. That's from his heart. Just click on the Holy Land 2027 link. And I look forward to hopefully having you go with us for a great, great time. Well, we're going to the phone lines. 888-589-8840. That's 885-89840. We've been talking to Phil Cook. He had to go, but, we're talking to him about leadership. We're talking to him about Anthony Fauci pleading the fifth over a hundred times. What does that look like? I thought it was very interesting what Phil said. You know lawyers, their only interest is keeping you out of prison. A, consultant, would be trying to protect your reputation. I personally, would rather just come clean on everything. just be, hey, if you messed up, you messed up. If you intentionally lied, you just say, hey, I lied. I was wrong. Jon Fetterman, I, ah, appreciate him. he said, hey, I believe the wet market lie because I trusted, the organization, the CDC and Fauci and the government. I was trusting in that. And it was, I mean, you gotta kind of gouge out your own Eyes. There's a coronavirus lab in Wuhan, China. And as one comedian said, it seems like maybe that's where it would come from. A, lab leak at the Corona Virus lab. pretty simple when you think about it, but, so many people believed the lie that was perpetrated. they believed the lies that were perpetrated by Dr. Fauci. About 6 foot of distance between people, about the masks and all the things that people did, and then about the vaccine that was safe and effective. it's not safe. It's not effective. Most people I know that got the vaccine wish they never had. And so, you know, you do such tremendous damage as an individual and as a leader of an organization if you're lying to people. Because, as Jon MacArthur so aptly said, truth and time go hand in hand. give. Give a statement, enough time, and you'll find out whether it was truthful. Well, the number to call is 888-589-8840. And we have Robin on the line from Virginia. Robin, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Oh, thank you so much. Welcome. I should say welcome to you, Pastor Schrieve. I know I get a little nervous when I call in, but I humbly wanted to call this morning because, first of all, I'm so thankful for AFR. Because, the conversation that you had with Mr. Cook and yourself as a pastor, and even about, Pastor Ed Young's church, who I used to listen to a lot. I so appreciate the transparency, you know, on it on a radio channel where we can listen to programs not only about Bible things, but about news and information, what's going on around the world. But I feel like it's interesting, as I was waiting, I was remembering, you know, my dad was a part of an organization, a nonprofit called International Christian Leadership, which otherwise m people might recognize as the prayer breakfast organization for almost 20 years. And as that fans into and dovetails into Dr. Fauci's, testimony. Because I happened to turn on yesterday right when, Josh Holly was asking the questions about. And, you know, it really made me feel like the difference between repentance and just regret. And that the importance I so appreciate about you, Pastor Schrieve, is that, you know, you are very transparent and authentic. And the power of what Mr. Cook was saying about any leader in a church, any evangelist, that it's ironic. I. You know, I feel like, I knew sort of early on, in early 2020, when they were just waving the flags and doing monetary, incentives to get the Shot. I never did. Never had a vaccine since I was in junior high. But the amazing thing to me is that you could feel a, palatable. Even though I wasn't in the room where he was testifying, the look on his face, you could just feel that he was going down, you know, and if there's any, you know, I can't put a hug around. And as much as I would love to console and comfort all those who lost loved ones because they did take the virus, or maybe from the actual COVID 19, that maybe the sharing and the seeing of the look on his face, and you could see what was coming out of him, that he was feeling awful or whatever that is. Right. So that if there's sometimes the, therapeutic sharing and seeing of that person who helped to cause this, it also made me realize that the beautiful nature of when the Holy Spirit is invisible, maybe we should be thankful for things that are invisible, that I can't see the evilness that's inside of a person like him or anybody else. But the big difference between just regret and repentance is that the most transparent thing we ever saw was Jesus on the cross and his blood. And I just pray that this helps to bring people to the fact that we're all sinners saved by grace.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, you're exactly right, Robin. You know, there are two things at work here. You know, you see somebody that obviously lied, and the lies affected so many lives, and there's righteous indignation. This is wrong. And you saw a lot of those senators that, were upset and congresspeople that were upset about you did this, and this affected so many lives. And, you know, loved ones weren't allowed to get close to their aging relatives and things like that. And, you shut down schools, as Ted Cruz said, you know, you've done damage to kids that will last for their lifetimes. People don't like to take that on. And so, Dr. Fauci is just. I mean, he's just going to lie to himself. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. I wouldn't do that. That's not me. they're just making accusations. They don't know what they're talking about. the things that he has said before to Rand Paul. And, so I don't think he's accepting any of those things. But the other thing you got to remember is, as you've pointed out, you know, it's not our place to string this guy up and, you know, skin him alive. vengeance Is mine. I will repay, says the Lord. Now, if he's broken laws and it seems like he has, and he committed perjury, hey, they need to go after him for that. But, that guy is one day going to have to stand before God, just like you are going to have to stand before God. I am not you, meaning Robin, but you in the plural. All of us are going to do that. I shared last night. I said, listen, I talked about God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, Admah and Zeboiim, two smaller cities there rained, down fire and brimstone on him. He made him example to those who would live ungodly thereafter. And God did not want to do that. God does not want to judge. He wants to save. And, the Lord, in response to Abraham interceding for Sodom, if you find 10 righteous there, Lord, will you spare the city? And he said, if I can find 10 righteous, I will not destroy this city. Why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in such an emphatic way? Is because there weren't 10 righteous people in the whole city. Lot lived there for 20 years. He had zero impact, because he was a compromiser, and God did destroy it. And shall not the judge of all the earth deal justly? That was the question that Abraham asked, in Genesis chapter 18. To the Lord, God will deal justly, and he will judge. And, those who, are living lives of sin and selfishness and lies and abominations, they're going to face the God who is holy, holy, holy. We live in a world today where people, they do not have a fear of God until they have to stand before God. as it says In Revelation chapter 6, during the Tribulation period, the great kings and the commanders and the great and the small, they're going to run to the mountains and say, to the mountains and to the rocks, fall on us and hide us from the presence of him who sits on the throne, the presence of the Lamb. For the day of their wrath has come. And who is able to stand? it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And we need to remember that, that, you're not going to be able to plead the fifth at the Great White Throne judgment. You are going to be judged, with pure justice. You don't want that. You want to settle your case out of court? Come to Jesus while there's still time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And, he takes you from death to life, you pass out of judgment and your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. So I appreciate that Rob, and God bless you. We have Jackie on the line from Texas. Jackie, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Hey Pastor Jeff, I'm kind of going to jump from that subject to one you were speaking on last week or bring up something maybe you're not aware of. Are you aware of the Noah Hyde laws and what they're trying to do with that particular situation?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The no hide laws, know what is that?
Caroline: Okay, there are seven Rebecca laws. The rabbis have brought them up. They're trying to make this a worldwide, I, guess the way of life. It's you will honor only one God. Well the whole problem there is they say if you're blasphemy and this and that, the punishment is beheading. and all of this is there's supposed to be 70 or 60 or 70 leaders of the nations meet in Israel November 6th, second, through the 6th, to try to start implementing this. This was recognized by Reagan back when he was in office. It's been recognized by Clinton, it's been recognized by one of the Bushes and it states that if you. This one God that they want to honor and justify is the old one and before Jesus came and whenever the breaking the law is decapitation by the sword and the only person that they seem to be against is Jesus because we worship Jesus as the God, God himself and the Holy Spirit. So we're basically blaspheming because we worship a three person God. The Muslims are supposedly okay because they are only worshiping one God and their little odeal is, well we're all going to worship really the same God, which is a lie.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I'd have to do some research on that, Jackie, but yeah, I'll take a look at that. And that seems yeah, it seems pretty crazy. So I'll take a look and then I'll comment on it, at a later date. But I appreciate the call. We have Scott on the line from Mississippi. Scott, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Hey Pastor Jeff, thank you for being a discerning, wise leader, for a nation that needs it so desperately. I saw, I wanted to get as angry as probably a lot of other people did at rehashing things from yesterday's testimony. But I've tried to get away from it, take a 30,000 foot view and I see so many blind spots in the congregations of most churches today. Even if their pastors are wise and biblical teachers, they, don't seem to be up at all on what's going on in the world around them at any point in time. The average, parishioner just seems to be oblivious just because of their own day to day distractions. but I saw yesterday, I looked at Fauci as a mirror to our nation of who we are. That is who we are. The Senate got exactly what they have been dishing out to us for all this time. Deception yesterday would have never happened if our government had anybody with any courage to protect us, to keep the oath, to protect our people. Who are the king? The people are the king. Not Fauci, not Trump, not Biden, not any of those. Not Bill Gates, not any of those. We have allowed George Soros, we have allowed Bill Gates, we have allowed Tony Foushee, we have allowed presidents come in and most of them are narcissistic to start with. And they are looking out for no one but their own. And this government, what you saw yesterday was the epitome of no accountability government not elected, the highest paid, even his retirement without would outpace most people's regular pay in a year's time. And we should look at that and say, that is us right now. We are in trouble and we are doomed if we don't do something drastic. And there will, no, nobody will be able to account for any of that. Covid was so early, you could tell early that it was not a vaccine because they had to change the definition. The CDC had to change the definition of what a vaccine was to get an early use authorization. So how in the world could we keep calling it a vaccine when it's not even a vaccine? It was all a hoax and it was early revealed and people ignored it and went along with it. And now we're in an, existential
Frank Gaffney: threat to our nation that we probably
Caroline: won't get out of if I'm really seeing what I'm seeing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, great point, Scott. Yeah. The only hope for America is, is to turn to Jesus. Ah, that's the only hope for the world. This world is a sinking ship. Our nation is a sinking ship. And, Jesus is the hope, that the only hope that we have, there is salvation and no one else. For there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. And that is the name of Jesus. And so, yes, we need to get involved. Yes, we need to pray, yes, we need to do all we can to save America. But at the end of the day, it's going to go to Jesus. He is the only savior, and we need to direct people to him. Well, thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. Shine and share and let God use your life. God bless you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good morning, and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Hope you're having a wonderful Thursday morning. Psalm 90:12 says this, so teach us to number our days that we may present to you a heart of wisdom. It's good to, see that life is brief. And as you number your days, you see, okay, these days are going by, you know, your life is made up of so much time. When we talk about people killing time, well, I'm killing time. killing time is just committing suicide by degrees because you only have so much time. The psalmist moses in Psalm 90, Lord, teach me to number my days. Teach me to see how, how few, hours I have so that I can present to you a heart of wisdom. Now, somebody that helps me have a heart of wisdom is my friend Dr. Phil Cook. He's a media producer. He's a writer, speaker, consultant, founder and CEO of Cook Media Group. And, he sends out emails, every couple of weeks or so, and, about faith, media, and culture. One of the ones I read yesterday really caught my eye. It said, why every church needs a wise gray hair on staff. And so I wanted to talk to him about that and other things. So. Dr. Phil, can you hear me?
Frank Gaffney: I can hear you.
Caroline: I'm good.
Frank Gaffney: Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right. You're the guy that, never ages. You always look like you're getting younger and younger.
Frank Gaffney: Well, I worry sometimes it'll all happen at once. I'll just wake up in the morning and boom. I don't know. It's getting. Things don't work the way they used to, I can tell you that. Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I think you're a couple years ahead of me. Not a whole lot, but a couple. And so, I did, when you sent out in the very first article, you always have, three or four little things for, leaders that are very helpful. So why every church needs a wise Gray hair on staff. I loved that. And, so I read that article and, explained to our listeners, especially our pastors and deacons that are in listening audience, why is that important?
Frank Gaffney: Well, you know, going back to the Bible, if Moses had not listened to his father in law, Jethro, he might have worked himself to death. Jethro actually had a solution because he'd been there before. I think a lot of situations, you know, I love being surrounded by the young guys. I love being surrounded by creativity and innovation. But sometimes there needs to be a voice that says, we've done that before, we've tried it, and it didn't work, or here's the way it could work. That voice of experience really does matter. And so I've seen so many churches lose amazing leaders simply because they hit retirement age and they felt like it was time to move on. And I just think that, it would be a good idea for any. And this could work at a company, it could work at a nonprofit or a ministry church, whatever. Just having that voice, I think is so, so important.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, Phil, it's really interesting. Back in the day, so I was a big UCLA fan. My brother went to ucla and I love Jon Wooden and read, a lot of things about him. So back in the day, he, he retired in 1975. He was almost 65 years old. Because UCLA had a, had a policy that as soon as you hit 65, you were out. And so even a guy, probably the greatest college basketball coach in the history of basketball, had to retire because he was 65. we don't have that anymore. And, so I was going to ask you this. How do you feel about that, especially as it relates to pastors? What is a good rule of thumb as guys get older? you know, some guys, we hear this phrase, hey, he stayed too long.
Frank Gaffney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: How do you counsel guys with that?
Frank Gaffney: That's a great question, because I've also written blog posts about recognizing that it's time to step down. And sometimes the greatest act of leadership you can do is to do exactly that. Step down. There are leaders that, you know, you find it often with founding leaders. I've often seen leaders that will hang on until you pry their cold, dead hand off the steering wheel. And, it's just too long. So I do think we need to recognize that. But at the same time, you know, you mentioned Jon Wooden. I'm on the, I've been on. Served on the board of the Salvation army, which I think is one of the Great organizations in the world. My wife has been on their board. And, they have a mandatory retirement age even today of 65. And theoretically, it's to let open doors for younger leaders to step up and do their thing. However, I see these amazing leaders who I think we'd all agree at 65, you're just at the peak of your leadership. They often will have to. They're forced out, and they go to other organizations and they lead other ministries and other organizations. So I just think we need to rethink the whole 65 retirement thing. Anyway. I just think that so many people are so wise at that time. So, anyway, I think experience does matter.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. And then, on the other side of that coin, then you have people. Mitch McConnell comes to mind. I don't know how many years ago he died, but, I mean, his Weekend at Bernie's, not to be rude, but I mean, he needs to retire when you're in that kind of shape. Obviously, Joe Biden was in no position to run for president, and he really didn't run. He had his name out there. But, how do you think an organization. Phil. Should go about that? When you do have the founding pastor, let's say, and he's not thinking about retirement and everybody El. Else is. How do you broach that subject with him?
Frank Gaffney: You know, leadership is hard, as you know, Jeff, it's hard. And very often we need to sit down and have those come to Jesus meetings with. With bosses, leaders, pastors, CEOs, and just talk about. Look, it's time to. We. We need to start thinking about succession. Succession is a part of that conversation, because I think most pastors don't think about it until it's too late. when you're. When you raise up somebody to be the next leader at your church, the congregation needs to know that person. They need to be familiar with that person. They need to like that person, have a relationship. It's not something that you could just say, okay, guess what? Next Sunday we're going to have Bob Thompson step in and be the pastor. Now, that's just too much of a shock for everybody. So I think these things need to be thought out way ahead of time. And in most cases, they're not. I actually had a pastor call me into his office one day. he was theoretically preparing the way for his son to take over the church. And I came in and was helping them update their television ministry and got a great book deal for his son. And the Pastor, who was 88 at the time, called me into his office and was so angry, he was shaking. He said, so you're the guy that's destroyed my ministry? And I said, what are you talking about? He said, you think because you've got this great book deal for my son and you're helping change the television program, there's any room for me in ministry anymore? And I wanted to say, you're 88. You know, maybe it's time to step down, relax, go to pasture. but he was so. He was shaking. He was so angry. So we. There are people that just refuse to let go. And I think sometimes we just need to have that hard conversation.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. And you know what I've noticed, Phil, over the years? I'm 64 years old, and I've been at first, Baptist, going on 24 years in February. when you're younger, you're organically connected with kids, organically connected to every area of the church, Children's ministry, student ministry, and things like that. As you get older, your kids are grown and gone. Unless you have grandkids coming through there, you're not as organically connected. And it can make it harder, because you don't relate as well. how do you counsel guys like me that, maybe don't relate as well because we're in our 60s as we did when we were in our 40s?
Frank Gaffney: You know, at that point, you have to be intentional. Jon. Jon Maxwell had a great phrase called walk, the factory floor. And for CEOs, leaders, pastors, the point was, get out there. Be intentional about getting out there, meeting your team, meeting the employees, that sort of thing. And I say, in a situation like you're talking about, you'd have to be intentional about engaging with the younger people. Go in and talk to them, Go in and teach, be casual with them. Show up at summer camp every once in a while. make intentional efforts. Because the truth is, those kids would love you. They will love you. They want the respect and relationship with an older leader like that. And so we just have to be much more. I totally get what you mean, because I'm the same way. I have to be much more intentional in reaching out to younger people and listening to young ideas. And the thing is, the younger people on the team are going to have some dumb things to say, because you and I have been there. We've heard these things before. But they need a voice. We need to let them speak up, have a voice, and we need to be intentional about that, or they're going to feel alienated and not Feel like there's a place for them there.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Phil, you've spent a career on dealing, with optics and situations. And when the house is on fire, what do you do? Those kinds of things? Well, Everybody's talking about Dr. Fauci yesterday on Capitol Hill. He pled the Fifth. 111 times, something like that. give me your opinion on the optics of that, decision.
Frank Gaffney: Well, they're obviously not good. I think even though a lot of the Democrat leaders are standing up for him and trying to defend him, I think even them, when they go home m at night, they talk to their wives and husbands and say, man, this guy is on fire. He's burning. He's crashing. particularly when your diary gives you away, when your own email. This is a real word for leaders, by the way, that, you know, Google says if you have Gmail and many of the other email servers are the same way. Even if you delete an email, it never really goes away. And in a court situation, they can be pulled up text messages the same way. And so a lot of the indictment is not just his personal diary, but his emails. They're pulling emails from years ago that's indicting him. And so we have to be really careful that we are in public, who we are in private. That's so important. And I think what he's showing is that he wasn't that same guy. I mean, he was out trying to book appearance media appearances and make money at it. He had his staff doing it, which is illegal. And so I just think that, he's. He's really setting himself on fire here. It's not so much the investigation. It's his own words. And when they use your own words to indict you, boy, that can be. That could be very, very damning. And I think that's the situation he's in right now.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, in trying to protect his legacy, he's trashing his legacy by not answering the questions. so if he hired Phil Cook, as opposed to all the bank of lawyers that he had, what would you have told him to do?
Frank Gaffney: Well, I always believe in honesty. I always believe in honesty. I think taking the Fifth looks really, really bad. And I'm sure, you know, lawyers are not there to save your reputation. They're there to keep you out of jail. This is a good word for pastors and ministry leaders right now, that if you have a crisis in your church, whether it's some kind of a sexual abuse situation, a financial situation, some other kind of a Crisis lawyers are there to keep you out of jail, not to save your reputation. Communication people, experts in communication, are there to help save your reputation. And so it doesn't mean that saving your reputation is about lying. It's about telling the truth, actually. And I think that I'm not a big. Pleading the fifth guy. I think that you need to get up there and, it's funny, they have clips of him. I've seen that. They're playing from news shows from years ago where he said, hey, I will defend all of my actions. I'm happy to defend them. And yet now he's not doing it. So I think that he should step up. If I was advising him, I would say, look, you need to talk to these guys. And, and, you know, be very, very careful about invoking the fifth. That's just a very dangerous tactic.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: I want to play you a clip, Phil, of somebody that you know very well about what, a team, really wants in a leader, because this fits.
Caroline: Okay.
Frank Gaffney: Hi, this is Phil Cook with a quick pro tip for leaders. You know, your team doesn't expect perfection, but they do expect character. They expect integrity. You can show integrity and character in everything you do. Every phone call, every meeting, every task, every project. You don't have to be perfect as a leader. Don't get hung up on that. So often leaders hold back because they're worried about making a mistake. Worry less about making a mistake and think more about how I can show my character, my integrity in this situation, because that's what really inspires them to do remarkable things. Well, that guy's a genius now, whoever that is.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Phil, I had a,
Frank Gaffney: I was working recently with a guy who was. So. He was such a perfectionist as a leader. I was consulting with a big M ministry recently.
Caroline: He.
Frank Gaffney: The leader was such a perfectionist that he was afraid to make a decision he could not. He was paralyzed because he was so afraid of making a mistake. And it, dawned on me that, look, your team and his team, in the meanwhile, is just looking. What do we do? What do we.
Caroline: What do we.
Frank Gaffney: What decisions do we make? What actions do we take? That they were paralyzed as well? So I just think it's more important to realize that character matters, obviously, in life. And, you know, at the end of your days, they're not going to be looking back on the mistakes you made or the, you know, what a perfectionist you were. They're gonna go back and say, wow, that guy had real character. That woman had real character, real integrity. And I think that's, that's what matters for the long haul. If you want to leave a lasting legacy, that's the way to do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, everybody's gonna mess up. There's no perfect leader. And I've always, you know, if you mess up, you fess up. If you lose your temper in a meeting, which can happen, it, can happen to anybody, can happen to pastors, apologize and, you know, whoever is in that meeting say, hey, I lost my cool, I'm sorry. That goes, I've done that personally just in the last six months. And that goes so far in elevating you in the minds of those people because they say, wow, that guy made it right. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to my friend Dr. Phil Cook. And we'll be back with more on American Family Radio.
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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here talking to my friend Dr. Phil Cooke, founder and CEO of Cook Media Group. A media producer, a writer, he's got some great books, speaker consultant, and we're talking about leaders, and leadership and leaders having wisdom. Wisdom is seeing life from God's perspective. The lord says in James 1:5, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all m men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. if a leader doesn't have wisdom, that leader can make some terrible decisions. Now Phil, we were talking at the break cracker Barrel hired a lady relatively young. She looked like she was in her 40s. Julie Fels Massineaux, who went on Good Morning America just a few years ago. We're totally changing Cracker Barrel. We're not your father's Oldsmobile anymore, that kind of thing. what a disaster that was. It was not quite Bud Light, but Bud Light esque. And, found out very quickly that she didn't do her homework to determine who eats here and what do they like about the place. Weigh in on that whole debacle.
Frank Gaffney: Yeah, you know, sometimes you can, First of all, I think she was a DEI hire. I think that was during that era when everybody was trying to hire younger women, minorities, people, you know, out of the ordinary, anything but a white dude. And, I think they overstepped their bounds a little bit and brought in somebody who, to me, she looked like she'd never been in the Cracker Barrel store. She didn't embody the type of customer they have. She didn't look like the type of customer they have. She didn't talk like them. And it's funny when I've seen her on a number of news shows where she. They said, well, did you actually ask customers, did you do surveys? And she kind of hedged that question and said, well, I thought this and I thought that, and I felt like this. And it just seemed to me that she was not out there in the thick of things asking the people that go to Cracker Barrel. And so she obviously over overstepped. She over branded. She got rid of Uncle Herschel, my favorite dish at Cracker Barrel, let me just say that. And, she just went way too far. And we can do that. We can do it in churches, we can do it in nonprofits, we can do it in businesses. We can overstate, you know, in our efforts to try to update and be hip and be contemporary, which I think is important, sometimes we can just overstep and we forget what the DNA of the organization really is and who the members are and what we're representing and what we're doing. So I think she was just insensitive to that. And I think they should have probably gotten rid of her a long time ago. And the reason not to be harsh, but, you know, a leader embodies the organization. The leader is the visual representative of that organization. He or she is the bottom line. And so I think sometimes, if the damage is so great, you've got to remove that person from the equation and bring in somebody new to revitalize the organization. And there have been situations where pastors in a crisis needed to step down to take all the attention because they were just sucking up all the attention. And, it was just too damaging to keep them in place. So sometimes people need to move on.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, let me shift that to, the church world. So in the news, Second Baptist Church of Houston, huge church and doct. Ed Young was the pastor there for 40, I think 47 years, 48 years, something like that. tremendous. Had a lot of credibility, had a lot of trust built up. But they changed the bylaws. People thought they did that in a kind of a clandestine way and gave all the power to just a group, took it away from the church. He installed his son Ben as the pastor. The church didn't get to vote or anything like that. Well, they got sued, a group in the church and not. I, knew one of the guys that was doing that, and he was the CEO of Conoco. He's not some, you know, Joe Blow off the street. He was Ed Young's personal prayer partner. I mean, he was a big time guy. Archie Dunham. Well, they lost in court, which is not surprising because the courts don't want to get involved in church squabbles as they look at it. But Phil, from your perspective, the church wins, but does the church really win?
Frank Gaffney: No, not at all. Not at all. In situations like that, I think transparency is the thing to remember. so often when we're making decisions, policy changes, anything in a church or a nonprofit, we have to remember that when we're not transparent, people start guessing at what's going on. And trust me, they always guess worse than what's really happening.
Caroline: And.
Frank Gaffney: Excuse me, that's why I think so, so strongly about being honest about things. If you're in a crisis, be honest, be up front, be transparent, because that takes the ammo away from your critics. And I think that there was just a lot of stuff going on. As you said, it sounded shady. I don't know all the details of what happened, but from an outsider, it just doesn't sound legitimate. It sounds like something weird is going on here and that makes people start talking, it makes people start wondering. And so I think, my advice is always be transparent. Be upfront in these things. If the congregation doesn't buy into it, you're going to have a split. Things are going to get horrible. And like you say, I think that Ben and the leadership team is going to be in a tough place from this point on.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I was telling my staff just yesterday, you know, bigger is not always better. And you know, he's got a huge shirt. I wouldn't trade with him for anything.
Frank Gaffney: No, no. Bigger is not always better. You're exactly right. Particularly for a second gen. Now let me say this. I've written, I've read on my blog about the fact that a next generation leader that succeeds a legend, you know, if you're succeeding a guy, like Ed Young, Ed Young Senior, let me tell you that that's a tough gig. No matter who you are, you may be a son, you may be a genius, whoever you are. It's always difficult leading, following. Let me say that following a legendary leader. So that, that's, you know, that's part of the situation there too. And it's always very, very tough. They have to be very strategic in how they do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so we've, we've had, in the church world, we've had a lot of really heavy, hitting pastors. Big name Pastor W.A. criswell comes to mind.
Caroline: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Following him didn't go well for Joel Gregory, and it was several. how can that go? Well, if you are the guy that's following a living legend, so to speak, how do you do that? Joshua did a good job following Moses, although he was scared to death.
Frank Gaffney: He did.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But what do you think is the formula for that?
Frank Gaffney: That next generation leader needs to have the trust of the people in the organization. whether it's a church or a ministry or nonprofit or whoever, they need to have that trust. And that trust is only built because he or she came on the scene early and was so called blessed by the founding pastor and they had a relationship ahead of time. And everybody knows this person is going to be the next leader and they have time to adapt to that and get used to that. I can't say enough about bringing on a next generation leader early because it really does build up trust with people. They get used to that person. Makes a dramatic difference. In fact, it happens so little. Very often the guy that succeeds is the third leader. The third leader. Because usually after a legendary leader, the next person crashes and burns and it's just so difficult. And then the leader that comes in after that person appears, to save everything, they get a lot of respect. So it's a tough gig all around. But I think the key is bringing that person on early enough that everybody gets comfortable, get used to them. And that takes some years, to do, but it's often so, so, so
Pastor Jeff Schreve: much better, you know, Phil, I think with younger guys, especially younger pastors, they don't realize about the trust factor. And it takes time.
Frank Gaffney: Yes.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: You, you can't just walk in with trust. People have to get to know you. And, and if you make, if you make major decisions and they don't trust you, the other guy could have done that and they wouldn't have said boo about it.
Caroline: It.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: But you do it and they're grilling you.
Frank Gaffney: Yeah. I've often said that a guy like Billy Graham could have committed some pretty terrible sins in his life. He could have done some really dumb things in his career, but the trust factor was so strong about Billy and his ministry that people would have forgiven him. And I think that trust, that bank of goodwill that you build with people really, really does matter. And irrigation, you've hit on a really important thing because we cannot build enough trust. We need to have trust with people. And you're right. New leaders, they don't start it from day one. It doesn't happen from day one. It takes time and maybe a few crisis and difficult times to get through when people start to trust you and they know that your interest is their interest, and they're going to give you a lot more credibility. Makes a big difference.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Phil, I know you, very gracious with your time, but, you got to go tell, our listeners how they can connect with you, especially to get your emails because you have some great stuff in there.
: Sure.
Frank Gaffney: I have a blog at Phil Cook.com, i'm Cook with an E P H I L C O O K e dot com and on that, that homepage, you can sign up every week to get an email of my best blog posts I've written that week. That way you don't even have to visit my website. but yeah, I'm an inventor. I cannot help but write. I write like crazy. I've done 11 books and I'm working on another 12th one. And, I just, I really love it. But everything comes out on my blog first. So that is the place to find out what I'm thinking and, and where everything is. So I'd encourage people go to phil cooke.com and thank you, by the way, Jeff, I always enjoy being on the show. This is fantastic. You, you're you. You ask very great, very timely questions.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, thanks, brother. What's that? So give me a preview of the new book.
Frank Gaffney: it's on things that leaders never notice. maybe it's because I spent the money first part of my career behind A camera. As a media producer, I've seen things that leaders just completely miss. And I think that leaders need to be much more observant, aware, discerning. Discerning is a word we use a lot in the church. We don't use it a lot in the secular world, but it's an important word. Being able to discern things, seeing things that other people miss. I think that really separates a leader from the rest of the pack. And so I want to write a book that's going to help leaders understand what they should be noticing, what they shouldn't be noticing, what they need to see that other people maybe are missing. I think that's a really important issue in this digital distracted world we live in today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. I look forward to reading that, my friend. Thanks so much, Phil. We'll do it again.
Caroline: Thank you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: God bless.
Caroline: Take care.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, everybody is talking about the, Anthony Fauci situation, and it was hard to turn away. I was watching it on YouTube yesterday as I was doing some other things. And you, know, to hear a guy just, over and over 100. I think it was 111. Somebody said 120. I don't know. I didn't count him. It was over 100. To hear him just say, I, plead the fifth. I plead the fifth. I love what, Josh Hawley did with him, concerning pleading the fifth.
: Let's try something. What day of the week is it today?
Frank Gaffney: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution.
: What color tie are you wearing?
Frank Gaffney: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
: What color is the carpet in front of you?
Frank Gaffney: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
: Let's just get one thing straight. You don't have any rights under the fifth amendment because you've been pardoned. As you very well know, as the supreme court has been clear for a century and more. Brown versus Walker, 1896. When he has been pardoned, he may not stand upon his privilege. You know that. Your lawyer is sitting behind you now, shifting nervously in their chairs. They know it. This isn't about the Constitution. This isn't about the law. This is about contempt. Contempt for this body and contempt for the American people.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Touche. I like Josh Hawley a lot. He doesn't pull any punches. But you, know, as Phil Cook said, The optics, are terrible. When you're pleading the fifth, you just look guilty. Now, the Fifth amendment is in there to, protect somebody. You can't, you know, incriminate yourself, but, you know, you're 85 years old. you're probably not going to be around too much longer. I mean, how many more years do you got? Ah, life for Anthony Fauci. You need to remember this. For a normal person, the average person, you wouldn't want to be that guy. because you talk about your name being mudd. Now, to the liberals, you know, he's their hero. Somebody, posted, you know, he's. I don't care what you say. Dr. Fauci is still a hero. And I said, in response, I said, well, when you call good evil and evil good, and substitute light for darkness and darkness for light. Isaiah, chapter 5, verse 20. The villains are the heroes, and that's the upside down world we live in. Senator Ted Cruz was asked about Dr. Fauci and, and, his non testimony on Capitol Hill. This is what he had to say.
Steve Jordahl: Years from now, they'll look back and say, what collective madness overtook this country?
Frank Gaffney: If I ask you about Fauci and the effort to hold him in contempt.
Steve Jordahl: Yeah.
Frank Gaffney: Do you support it?
Steve Jordahl: Absolutely. look, I think Anthony Fauci has had contempt for Congress and contempt for the American people for decades. His diary shows that he deliberately lied to the American people over and over and over again. In his diary, he wrote early on that it was clear that the Cove virus did not come from the wet market in Wuhan. And then he turned around and said exactly the opposite thing on national television. In his diary, he brags about convincing. Convincing Democrats in NewSong York and California to shut schools down. And yet he goes on TV and says, oh, I wasn't for shutdowns. That level of contempt and dishonesty is disgraceful. And Dr. Fauci ought to think about what it says about the end of his career, that what he will be remembered for the most is pleading the fifth. More than 100 times, he's been the most damaging bureaucrat in the history of America. And I will say the school shutdowns, which Fauci bragged that he was responsible for, may well be the single most destructive public policy step we've seen in decades. That learning loss will stick with those kids the rest of their lives.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: That was Senator Ted Cruz talking about Dr. Fauci. You know, as far as being a liar, here's what the Lord has to say. The second to the last chapter of the Bible, Revelation, chapter 21. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second, second death. All liars. Lying is a terrible sin. Where you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. When we come back from the break, we'll be taking your calls. 888-589-8840. That's triple 858-9840. If you have a question or a comment, love to hear from you. This is Real Truth for today on American Family Radio. And, the last say segment that we always hold out for calls is always a lot of fun. So give me a call and let's talk.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Have you ever been to Israel? Well, I'm leading a trip to Israel April 2nd through the 11th, 2027, and I'd love for you to, go with me. And so we're going to have a great time walking where Jesus walked. And that's April 2nd through the 11th, 2027. You can find out all the details at from his heart dot org. That's from his heart. Just click on the Holy Land 2027 link. And I look forward to hopefully having you go with us for a great, great time. Well, we're going to the phone lines. 888-589-8840. That's 885-89840. We've been talking to Phil Cook. He had to go, but, we're talking to him about leadership. We're talking to him about Anthony Fauci pleading the fifth over a hundred times. What does that look like? I thought it was very interesting what Phil said. You know lawyers, their only interest is keeping you out of prison. A, consultant, would be trying to protect your reputation. I personally, would rather just come clean on everything. just be, hey, if you messed up, you messed up. If you intentionally lied, you just say, hey, I lied. I was wrong. Jon Fetterman, I, ah, appreciate him. he said, hey, I believe the wet market lie because I trusted, the organization, the CDC and Fauci and the government. I was trusting in that. And it was, I mean, you gotta kind of gouge out your own Eyes. There's a coronavirus lab in Wuhan, China. And as one comedian said, it seems like maybe that's where it would come from. A, lab leak at the Corona Virus lab. pretty simple when you think about it, but, so many people believed the lie that was perpetrated. they believed the lies that were perpetrated by Dr. Fauci. About 6 foot of distance between people, about the masks and all the things that people did, and then about the vaccine that was safe and effective. it's not safe. It's not effective. Most people I know that got the vaccine wish they never had. And so, you know, you do such tremendous damage as an individual and as a leader of an organization if you're lying to people. Because, as Jon MacArthur so aptly said, truth and time go hand in hand. give. Give a statement, enough time, and you'll find out whether it was truthful. Well, the number to call is 888-589-8840. And we have Robin on the line from Virginia. Robin, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Oh, thank you so much. Welcome. I should say welcome to you, Pastor Schrieve. I know I get a little nervous when I call in, but I humbly wanted to call this morning because, first of all, I'm so thankful for AFR. Because, the conversation that you had with Mr. Cook and yourself as a pastor, and even about, Pastor Ed Young's church, who I used to listen to a lot. I so appreciate the transparency, you know, on it on a radio channel where we can listen to programs not only about Bible things, but about news and information, what's going on around the world. But I feel like it's interesting, as I was waiting, I was remembering, you know, my dad was a part of an organization, a nonprofit called International Christian Leadership, which otherwise m people might recognize as the prayer breakfast organization for almost 20 years. And as that fans into and dovetails into Dr. Fauci's, testimony. Because I happened to turn on yesterday right when, Josh Holly was asking the questions about. And, you know, it really made me feel like the difference between repentance and just regret. And that the importance I so appreciate about you, Pastor Schrieve, is that, you know, you are very transparent and authentic. And the power of what Mr. Cook was saying about any leader in a church, any evangelist, that it's ironic. I. You know, I feel like, I knew sort of early on, in early 2020, when they were just waving the flags and doing monetary, incentives to get the Shot. I never did. Never had a vaccine since I was in junior high. But the amazing thing to me is that you could feel a, palatable. Even though I wasn't in the room where he was testifying, the look on his face, you could just feel that he was going down, you know, and if there's any, you know, I can't put a hug around. And as much as I would love to console and comfort all those who lost loved ones because they did take the virus, or maybe from the actual COVID 19, that maybe the sharing and the seeing of the look on his face, and you could see what was coming out of him, that he was feeling awful or whatever that is. Right. So that if there's sometimes the, therapeutic sharing and seeing of that person who helped to cause this, it also made me realize that the beautiful nature of when the Holy Spirit is invisible, maybe we should be thankful for things that are invisible, that I can't see the evilness that's inside of a person like him or anybody else. But the big difference between just regret and repentance is that the most transparent thing we ever saw was Jesus on the cross and his blood. And I just pray that this helps to bring people to the fact that we're all sinners saved by grace.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, you're exactly right, Robin. You know, there are two things at work here. You know, you see somebody that obviously lied, and the lies affected so many lives, and there's righteous indignation. This is wrong. And you saw a lot of those senators that, were upset and congresspeople that were upset about you did this, and this affected so many lives. And, you know, loved ones weren't allowed to get close to their aging relatives and things like that. And, you shut down schools, as Ted Cruz said, you know, you've done damage to kids that will last for their lifetimes. People don't like to take that on. And so, Dr. Fauci is just. I mean, he's just going to lie to himself. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. I wouldn't do that. That's not me. they're just making accusations. They don't know what they're talking about. the things that he has said before to Rand Paul. And, so I don't think he's accepting any of those things. But the other thing you got to remember is, as you've pointed out, you know, it's not our place to string this guy up and, you know, skin him alive. vengeance Is mine. I will repay, says the Lord. Now, if he's broken laws and it seems like he has, and he committed perjury, hey, they need to go after him for that. But, that guy is one day going to have to stand before God, just like you are going to have to stand before God. I am not you, meaning Robin, but you in the plural. All of us are going to do that. I shared last night. I said, listen, I talked about God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, Admah and Zeboiim, two smaller cities there rained, down fire and brimstone on him. He made him example to those who would live ungodly thereafter. And God did not want to do that. God does not want to judge. He wants to save. And, the Lord, in response to Abraham interceding for Sodom, if you find 10 righteous there, Lord, will you spare the city? And he said, if I can find 10 righteous, I will not destroy this city. Why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed in such an emphatic way? Is because there weren't 10 righteous people in the whole city. Lot lived there for 20 years. He had zero impact, because he was a compromiser, and God did destroy it. And shall not the judge of all the earth deal justly? That was the question that Abraham asked, in Genesis chapter 18. To the Lord, God will deal justly, and he will judge. And, those who, are living lives of sin and selfishness and lies and abominations, they're going to face the God who is holy, holy, holy. We live in a world today where people, they do not have a fear of God until they have to stand before God. as it says In Revelation chapter 6, during the Tribulation period, the great kings and the commanders and the great and the small, they're going to run to the mountains and say, to the mountains and to the rocks, fall on us and hide us from the presence of him who sits on the throne, the presence of the Lamb. For the day of their wrath has come. And who is able to stand? it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And we need to remember that, that, you're not going to be able to plead the fifth at the Great White Throne judgment. You are going to be judged, with pure justice. You don't want that. You want to settle your case out of court? Come to Jesus while there's still time. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And, he takes you from death to life, you pass out of judgment and your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. So I appreciate that Rob, and God bless you. We have Jackie on the line from Texas. Jackie, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Hey Pastor Jeff, I'm kind of going to jump from that subject to one you were speaking on last week or bring up something maybe you're not aware of. Are you aware of the Noah Hyde laws and what they're trying to do with that particular situation?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: The no hide laws, know what is that?
Caroline: Okay, there are seven Rebecca laws. The rabbis have brought them up. They're trying to make this a worldwide, I, guess the way of life. It's you will honor only one God. Well the whole problem there is they say if you're blasphemy and this and that, the punishment is beheading. and all of this is there's supposed to be 70 or 60 or 70 leaders of the nations meet in Israel November 6th, second, through the 6th, to try to start implementing this. This was recognized by Reagan back when he was in office. It's been recognized by Clinton, it's been recognized by one of the Bushes and it states that if you. This one God that they want to honor and justify is the old one and before Jesus came and whenever the breaking the law is decapitation by the sword and the only person that they seem to be against is Jesus because we worship Jesus as the God, God himself and the Holy Spirit. So we're basically blaspheming because we worship a three person God. The Muslims are supposedly okay because they are only worshiping one God and their little odeal is, well we're all going to worship really the same God, which is a lie.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, I'd have to do some research on that, Jackie, but yeah, I'll take a look at that. And that seems yeah, it seems pretty crazy. So I'll take a look and then I'll comment on it, at a later date. But I appreciate the call. We have Scott on the line from Mississippi. Scott, welcome to Real Truth for today.
Caroline: Hey Pastor Jeff, thank you for being a discerning, wise leader, for a nation that needs it so desperately. I saw, I wanted to get as angry as probably a lot of other people did at rehashing things from yesterday's testimony. But I've tried to get away from it, take a 30,000 foot view and I see so many blind spots in the congregations of most churches today. Even if their pastors are wise and biblical teachers, they, don't seem to be up at all on what's going on in the world around them at any point in time. The average, parishioner just seems to be oblivious just because of their own day to day distractions. but I saw yesterday, I looked at Fauci as a mirror to our nation of who we are. That is who we are. The Senate got exactly what they have been dishing out to us for all this time. Deception yesterday would have never happened if our government had anybody with any courage to protect us, to keep the oath, to protect our people. Who are the king? The people are the king. Not Fauci, not Trump, not Biden, not any of those. Not Bill Gates, not any of those. We have allowed George Soros, we have allowed Bill Gates, we have allowed Tony Foushee, we have allowed presidents come in and most of them are narcissistic to start with. And they are looking out for no one but their own. And this government, what you saw yesterday was the epitome of no accountability government not elected, the highest paid, even his retirement without would outpace most people's regular pay in a year's time. And we should look at that and say, that is us right now. We are in trouble and we are doomed if we don't do something drastic. And there will, no, nobody will be able to account for any of that. Covid was so early, you could tell early that it was not a vaccine because they had to change the definition. The CDC had to change the definition of what a vaccine was to get an early use authorization. So how in the world could we keep calling it a vaccine when it's not even a vaccine? It was all a hoax and it was early revealed and people ignored it and went along with it. And now we're in an, existential
Frank Gaffney: threat to our nation that we probably
Caroline: won't get out of if I'm really seeing what I'm seeing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, great point, Scott. Yeah. The only hope for America is, is to turn to Jesus. Ah, that's the only hope for the world. This world is a sinking ship. Our nation is a sinking ship. And, Jesus is the hope, that the only hope that we have, there is salvation and no one else. For there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. And that is the name of Jesus. And so, yes, we need to get involved. Yes, we need to pray, yes, we need to do all we can to save America. But at the end of the day, it's going to go to Jesus. He is the only savior, and we need to direct people to him. Well, thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. Shine and share and let God use your life. God bless you.
Psalm 90:12
"So teach us to number our days, that we may present to You a heart of wisdom."
Explore the daily struggle every believer faces against the world, the flesh, and the devil. Drawing from key passages such as Romans 7–8, Psalm 90:12, James 1:5, and 1 John 2:15–17, this lesson examines spiritual warfare, living by the Spirit, the importance of wisdom, integrity in leadership, confession, repentance, and standing firmly on God's truth in a culture of deception. Participants will discover practical biblical principles for overcoming sin, leading with character, and faithfully following Christ.
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