Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Wednesday morning, and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. Want to talk to you today about our struggle, our ongoing struggle as Christians with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Bible talks about all that is in the world. The lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life is not from the Father, but is from the world. And do not love the world, nor the things in the world. Now, Paul, in his discussion in Romans, says in Romans 6 that we are dead to sin. And then in Romans 7, he talks about the fact that although we're dead to sin on paper, we still deal with the flesh. He says this beginning, in verse 14 of Romans chapter 7. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am a flesh sold into bondage to sin. For what I'm doing, I do not understand. For I'm not practicing what I would like to do, but I'm doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the law, confessing that it is good. So now no longer am, I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh. For the willing is present in me. But the doing of the good is not for the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. He goes on to say, wretched man that I am, who will set me free from the body of this death. Well, to help me in this very important discussion, because every Christian knows what it's like to battle internally with knowing what you want to do, what you need to do, what the Lord says to do, and battling your flesh in wanting to do the opposite. And so to help me with this discussion is my good friend, Dr. Krish Schroeder. Dr. Schroeder is the teaching pastor at First Baptist Church in Texas, and he spends a lot of time in the counseling office helping people through difficulties in the Christian life. Krish, welcome to the program.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Thank you. I mean, we all struggle. We all have sin. So this is the Apostle Paul, which could be considered one of the greatest Christians of all time. And even he is saying that he struggles with this, sin, with the flesh. I almost said sin nature, but he doesn't say sin nature. He says the flesh. Right. You know, so we've always got this battle between the flesh and the spirit. And even Paul is talking about this battle.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, there are some people that don't like to say we have a, sin nature because that has been cut off. but I do have a poem that, talks about that. I heard it even yesterday on American Family Radio, from, David, Jeremiah. Two natures dwell within my breast. One is foul and one is blessed. One I love and one I hate, but the one I feed will dominate. Now, whether that's a nature or just the flesh, the Bible doesn't call it a sin nature, it calls it the flesh.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: I think when you say it's a great. A great discussion, but when you say sin nature, I do think that that kind of denotes a sickness. And, you know, a sickness is something

Pastor Jeff Schreve: that I'm not responsible for.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Exactly. You don't have responsibility. But Paul talks a lot about the battle. And so I like. I like that language better because then you've got a battle between the flesh and the spirit. It kind of reminds me of, like, the cartoon, you know, with the. The angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other shoulder. that's what Paul talks about a lot. So if you just had a sin nature where you just can't help it, you know, it's like Psychology today. It's just a sickness, you know, there's not a choice. It's just, I just got a sickness, you know, I just label it and I can't do anything about it.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: So I do like more the language of flesh and spirit that Paul uses here.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, Krish, it's interesting to me. I've been a Christian now for a long, long time. Since I was 17. I'm 64. you go into the Christian life. If you can think back as a listener, you think back when I first got saved. There's excitement. Everything is new. I want to live for the Lord. I want to, please him in all respects. Those are good things. But, as I shared last week, When I was talking to Mike Courtney, also a counselor. Dr. Mike Courtney. It's like the Israelites when they came into the promised land. They're winning battles, driving out the Canaanites. But then they couldn't drive out a particular group because they had iron chariots. And there are those sins in our lives that are more stubborn and more difficult to defeat than others. now in your own life and in your counseling ministry, did they get the wrong idea? I mean, sometimes we can say, well, good night, I ought to be able to defeat everything. Everything ought to just fall, because now I'm in Christ. But some of those things are not easy to defeat.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yes, I have a lot to say about that. That's a great, great, point. So we have. Maybe they call it a pet sin. Like your pet sin. You've got to be careful that you don't have the mindset that I've got this one sin in my life, and once I defeat that sin, then I'm good.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: You got to be careful of that mindset. And a good word, we use this in celebrate recovery. It's a great word, is a hang up. So we have hang ups, and they're kind of like narratives, you know, that we tell ourselves, like, oh, this is my sin. This is what I struggle with. This is what I believe. And a lot of times it's a lie. A lot of times it's not a truth. It comes from the evil one. And so we have what we call character defects. We all have character defects because we live in a, we do live in a fallen world, a sinful world. So they come from our family of origin, you know, our parents, our upbringing. Because sinful people, raising sinful people, you could have had really godly good parents. But no one, everyone falls short, as Paul says. And then your environment, the environment that you're in, you're in a sinful environment. You're around sinners, you know, we're around broken sinners. And then, our choices, the choices we make, and we, Like a lot of times people come into counseling, they've made a series of bad choices, and now they're wanting to get out of it. But it's probably going to take a series of good choices to get to a better place. So we all have these character defects. So, being aware of that, being aware of that area where Satan hits you, then you could also get into, like, generational things, you know, where Satan will hit. Hit your father with a certain, temptation. He'll Hit you with that same temptation. When he sees that something works, his playbook, he'll stay with the same playbook.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: So I think we do have these pet, sins, if you will. These things. You talk about it. You talk about, like, the power.

 : The.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: What is it? Power, Pride.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, the three things.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah, yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Deuteronomy 17. 17, where the Lord. Or Deuteronomy 17, where the Lord says the king has to watch out for money, sex and power. Those three. Those three areas take down more people, especially men. you know, I don't think. And this is changing. But most of the time, women, because they're not visual, sexual, immorality is not a driving force. You don't see a woman seeing a man on the street corner. And let's just have sex where a man will do that with a prostitute on the street corner.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: I don't. I think the woman is different because. Yeah, you're right. It is changing. The statistics show that it is changing. Changing. The addiction to pornography is growing for females. But I think it's these, novels. These, romance novels. I don't want to be trash novels, but like, romance novels that hit on the emotions, and they're unrealistic. They're very unrealistic of, portrayal. Portrayal of men and so that, you know, fulfilling these kind of fantasies. So it's not visual and physical like it is for men, but it's the emotional component. And so those novels, that addiction to those novels, and it's not maybe seen as, in a way, as pornography for men, but I think it has just the same effect.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, you would not see. I mean, something would have to be really off on a woman to just be driving down the street and see some guy on a street corner, hey, will you have sex with me? I'll pay you $100.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah, that's probably not super common. That is probably, you know, that definitely exists, but it's not as common as men, I think.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, so I think, you know. And Romans 7 is disputed, obviously. Some people say, well, that Paul is talking about himself as a Christian. Some say, no, he's talking about himself before he was a Christian, because now he just lived in the spirit in Romans, chapter eight. But I haven't found that in my own life. I found that, you talk about dealing with the devil. You resist the devil and he will flee from you. But when you deal with the sins of the flesh, you flee youthful lusts. I heard one pastor say, that's interesting that you stand firm against the devil. But when it comes to being tempted lustfully, as Joseph was with Potiphar's wife, that you have to run away from it.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Well, I always ask people, who is your greatest enemy? You know, we know that Satan prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. We know that he comes to kill, steal and destroy. We know that he is a foe. He's an enemy. But I would say that our number one enemy is not Satan. Our number one enemy is self. You know, you look in the mirror, that's your greatest enemy. And I know, I've heard you say it, I've used it before. You, add an H, flip it around, it's the flesh. So that is the greatest enemy. It's our own, self talk. It's our own narrative. It's our own. Just we are our own worst enemy. I, have a quote. Walt Kelly said, we have met the enemy and he is us. So I think that we are our own greatest enemy.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You think about that in the millennial kingdom, when, the devil is defeated and put into the abyss for a thousand years so he can no longer deceive the nations. the Lord is king. He sits on the throne. You can go see him. you still have sin. And it's not blatant because he's going to deal. He rules with a rod of iron. But people, unregenerate people that are in the kingdom, they still have the flesh and the flesh is still an enemy. they're not going to act out on the flesh. Nobody's opening up a pornographic bookstore in the millennial kingd kingdom. but they'll still have lustful thoughts that they deal with and bitterness and all those things that we deal with.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah. And that's why Paul tells us to, make our body a slave, you know, make our, like, take control of the spirit, to take control of the flesh. And that's why it's a good reminder, you know, first Jon 4:4. greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. And so you have a powerful spirit within you. I always saw Romans 7 as Paul talking about what he's currently struggling with. And that helps us to relate because we all have this battle and it really is what's the inside versus the outside? If you're a believer, if you're a Christian, you have the spirit inside of you. If you don't have the Holy Spirit inside of you, then you're just giving into the flesh.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, you have Nothing. And if you can, if you're a super disciplined person, as it says in Romans 8, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. the mind set on the flesh is death. The mindset on the spirit is life and peace. And it says this because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so. God hates the flesh because the flesh is against God. it's pride, it's, I'm going to do it my way. It's Cain versus Abel. Cain coming his own way and then getting angry at the Lord because he didn't accept his sacrifice. God will never accept anything in the flesh. And you know, Krish, we have people that think, if I do well in the flesh, then God will be pleased and he won't. Because our righteous deeds are like a filthy rag before God. Anything done in the flesh is repulsive to him.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah. So we have to decrease and so that he will increase. Yes. And so inside is a, you know, a roaring lion is the power is inside. The spirit is inside. While we're in this world, while we're in this sinful place, we still carry around this, this sinful flesh. The Adam suit. That's what some people say it's called an Adam suit.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, one of the things I love about celebrate recovery at our church and just the ministry in general is people. It forces people to get honest about, hey, I do have struggles. You know, just a human nature. We want to put fig leaves on ourselves. We don't want to expose our nakedness, not even to the Lord, but definitely not horizontally to other people.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah. So, there was a lady yesterday in our church that went up to Rochelle's. This lady is in her 80s and she said something that I had said at a senior adult about confessing to one another. And she had never really thought that much about that. And she said, I need to confess some things. And this is like a really godly lady in our church. And she just never thought of that concept. And it's coming from James 5:16, that healing comes through confession. forgiveness comes from the Lord. That's the forgiveness we need. Not from a priest or any other person. But healing comes when we confess to one another. And we all have things to confess. We all have hurts and hang ups and habits in our life.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, we sure do. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here with my good friend Dr. Krish Schroeder. And, Dr. Schroeder got his doctorate from Liberty University in counseling, biblical counseling, pastoral counseling, and that was last year.

 : Oh, man.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: 2022, I think.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Has it been that long?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Time's flying, man.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And Krish, has the book the Marriage Resurrection that he and his wife Rochelle wrote. Very, very helpful, very practical. So we're talking about Romans 7 and, the battle within. Wretched man that I am, who will set me free from this body of death? Well, the Lord sets us free, and we can walk in the spirit. We're up against a break, but we'll be right back. Don't go away.

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 : This is real truth for today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back. I want to ask you, what are you doing April 2nd through the 11th in 2027, you say, well, that's way off. Well, Dr. Krish Schroeder and I are going to be leading a trip to Israel April 2nd through the 11th, 2027, and we would love for you to join us as we walk where Jesus walked. visiting the land of Israel is truly a trip of a lifetime. And so, we would count it a great blessing and privilege if you would honor, us by joining us on this great trip. You can find out more information by going to from his heart.org from his heart.org and just click the link titled Holy Land 2027. You can get all the particulars and you can email us if you have a question about something. We would love to help you with that, Krish. This will be your first time to

Doctor Chris Schroeder: go, oh, man, I'm so excited. I just hope it's. It happens. I'm so excited.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, we're always at the mercy of geopolitics and conflicts and all those things. Surely things are going to start calming down. Iran, to me, as I've said with Rod Martin on the program and others, there's the famous Monty Python scene where the guy is battling and he gets his arm cut off and another arm cut off and a leg cut off, another leg cut off, and he's like, it's just a scratch. I can keep going.

 : And.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: And, that's Israel's mindset.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, that's. That's, that's Iran, definitely. They're just.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: We're okay. We're all right.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, we're doing great here. It's like Baghdad Bob when we were at war with Iraq, and he was saying, oh, we're doing great, and you see the tanks rolling through behind him. It's like, yeah, I think you're a lion, Baghdad Bob. So, Anyway, go to fromisheart.org and you can find out more about Holy Land 2027, April 2nd through the 11th. We're going to have a great time. Well, we're Talking about Romans 7, about the apostle Paul's discussion, concerning, we both believe, concerning his own life, as a believer and his battle with the flesh. The good that I want to do, I don't do. The evil that I don't want to do, I end up doing. Because, as Galatians 5 says, but I say, walk by the spirit. You'll not carry out the desire of the flesh, for the flesh sets its desire against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, for these are in opposition to one another. So that you may not do the things that you please. Now, Krish, if we think about that, the things that we please, our flesh wants to get revenge. Our flesh wants to lust. Our flesh wants to overindulge. Our flesh wants to just be the boss and do whatever we want. Be selfish, be greedy, all those things.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah. And that's why I think that, we have to starve the flesh. We can't. Just moderation, doesn't work. You tell someone that's an alcoholic, just, why don't you just, you know, drop it down to moderation? Right? That's not going to work. They have to starve the flesh. And, you know, alcohol and drugs, that's a big one. But food, you know, pornography, your phone, the tv, there's all kinds of things that we are addicted to. That we, that our flesh desires. And so sometimes we do have to starve the flesh and say, I'm going to take a period of basically fasting. I'm going to get away from this so that it doesn't have control of my life. I'm going to basically show this thing who's boss.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: And the spirit is the boss, not the flesh.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. I heard this from Bob Lapine one time I was off, on Sunday, this was several years ago. Went to his church, Redeemer Church there in Little Rock. And he said, we like to manage the flesh. And the Bible tells us you have to mortify the flesh. You have to put to death. The flesh is not your friend. You can't manage cancer.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Right.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You have to eradicate cancer from your body because if you let it stay, it's going to kill you.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: It's going to get stronger and stronger and stronger and then it's going to take over. Yeah, it's going to take. You know, I think you've used that illustration before. You give it a room in the house, eventually it's going to take over the whole house.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. There was a little saying that about how sin works. First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. And Krish, as you've dealt with people in cr, a lot of times it's alcohol and drug related, but a lot of other things and really anybody can go to cr. I mean, we all struggle with hurts, habits and hangups. But there are certain kinds of things that we can get involved in that really take their toll quickly. I think alcohol, drugs, gambling, those things can really sink your ship in a short period of time.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: I agree. But I do think that pornography is, underplayed because I think that they call it the silent killer in the church. And so I think it's doing more damage than we realize. especially because the percentage is so high. You know, they say it's like 66% of men have addiction to pornography. And I think it's equal to inside the church and outside the church. And so it's doing a lot of damage that we can't equate because it's in the darkness. It's done in darkness.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Just like someone having, an affair, you know, having an adulterous relationship, it's being done in the darkness. And so where drugs and alcohol are

Pastor Jeff Schreve: much more difficult to hide, are harder to hide.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Although some people have hidden that pretty well functioning. you know, Krish, when we think about like workaholics, you know, you have alcoholics, you have workaholics. 1. Debbie and I had this discussion not too long ago. if you're a workaholic, it's almost like people, admire you for that. Hey, I work 65 hours, 70 hours a week.

 : Look.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Look at what a dedicated employee or boss that I am.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Where you really see that I believe. And we don't talk about it enough. It's something that I'm passionate about, as you see it in the church. So some of our best workers are probably the most unhealthy people because, you know, when you get to the judgment seat, what did you do with my son, Jesus? What did you do with the gifts I gave you? And I think you said this. I got this from you. Why did you. Why did you. What was the motive? Yeah, I think that's. That's huge. I think that's huge. So I think there's a lot of people that are working, working, working for the pats on the back for the approval. They're approval addicts. And so it's underneath the iceberg. We see the iceberg, we see the work, we see what looks pretty on the top, but what's going on underneath is, some hangups, some issues. Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, Krish, in the pastorate, we, can get some guys in there that are not emotionally very healthy. We do have. I'm not calling names, but we do have people across the country that are not very healthy, that are pasturing people. And a lot of times, the motivation for guys, I've seen this over the years, can be those pats on the back. And they get more of that with pastoral care than they do with preaching on a Sunday morning. And so that's what is going to dominate their time. And then the preaching gets starved. Because if you're going to spend hours and hours and hours in people's homes, in the hospitals and nursing homes and things like that, there are only so many hours in a day.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: I look at it like I could equate everything to sports. It's like, It's like the skilled positions, like the wide receiver and quarterback. That's the hospital visits, the. The baptisms, the weddings, the, funerals. Those are the things that people. It really touches people's hearts because you're there at those. Those times, and it's very public. But the counseling with someone that no one sees, or the prep time and preaching, you know, it's the things that people don't see. You know, the offensive line, you don't get the glory for that or the people that are serving in the church constantly, I can't think of things off the top of my head, putting the bulletins out, doing things that nobody sees, you know, cleaning the bathrooms, those kinds of things that don't get the praise. But that's the, that's the hard stuff. That's, that's needed.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, it really is. And you know, I had my preaching professor, Wayne McDill, he told us in preaching class, guys, do not let yourself shortchange your study time.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Uh-huh.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Because on Sunday morning you're going to be speaking to the biggest audience that you have. I mean, most people, their Sunday morning crowd is bigger than a Sunday night service or a Wednesday night service or a Bible study during the week or whatever. And so he said that's where you can hit the most people. So in pastoral care, you can minister to a few. but on Sunday morning you can minister to the whole.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah, they say in seminary they say that the healthiest church is a pulpit driven church. So we have a pulpit driven church. And so, you have a lot of shepherds underneath you on staff, like a lot of shepherds. And so that's getting done. But the church is being led from the pulpit because that's your gift is prophecy and speaking truth. from the pulpit. And yeah, that's when you have the mass of people that they tune in or they come to church to hear that they need to hear the truth.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: They need to hear the word of God.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Krish, and you know this, when, a pastor really has a shepherding gift, he's probably not going to be able to pastor a church over a certain amount because you'll die trying. I mean, one shepherd can only have so many sheep that he's personally taking care of. And some guys have a hard time backing off of that because they want to be there.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: That's the Moses and Jethro situation. You know, Moses is trying to do it himself and his father in law, Jethro says, this is not sustainable. You're going to have to start delegating. And so that's when leadership is needed. Administration. And I mean, that's one of the weaknesses of the bride of Christ, is the church is not equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry. So we right away go to the, the staff and then we have all these spectators that are watching ministry take place instead of participants. And when you participate in ministry, your faith comes alive. And so, We've got to turn that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, well, ministry is exciting and, when you see God, use your life. We're Talking about Romans 7, dealing with the flesh. Well, one way to deal with the flesh is to jump into using your spiritual gift and serving and putting the Lord first and witnessing to people. And, as we say, shine and share. Well, if you're sharing a lot, you're going to be very cognizant of the fact that. Does my life match up to this?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Well, our tendency is to be selfish. And even in this text, the great apostle Paul, there's a lot of selfishness. We see a pattern, I, Me, several times, you see, I, me, my, myself, you see that several times in this passage. And so every time we start just getting so inward focused, that's when we, we lose sight of what we're called to do. That's why Jesus concludes with the Great Commission to go and make disciples. Go out, get your eyes off of yourself. And I always pray, God help me to see the needs around me, to have open eyes and not just look inward at self.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, Krish, I know, in counseling, 2 Corinthians, chapter 10 is a very key passage of scripture. The weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. When people get hung up in a particular sin, typically, and you mentioned this earlier, they believe lies about that or they have accepted that into their person. I am this thing and I can never change. And you know, I've tried to change. I can't change. And you know, I feel for people like that because, it can be very discouraging, whether it's, maybe it's constantly comparing yourself to somebody else or, you know, those are kind of under the radar type of sins. Bitterness, is a huge, huge resentment.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Bitterness.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, that normally shows up in other things too, doesn't it?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the number one jobs for us as Christians is to protect our hearts and not let resentment and bitterness take root. but yeah, we have, we have a tendency to, just focus so much on ourself and let these sins take root in our heart. And so we have these narratives. We all have narratives that we believe and that have been maybe told to us. For whatever reason, we've taken hold of these narratives. And so the Bible says that we can be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

 : Mind.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: And we can capture our thoughts. And so we have to rethink some things. And so in Counseling. We're trying to help people to rethink it. And that's, you know, looking at self, but then vertically, you know, aw, tozer. The most important thing about you is what you think about God.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: And so what are the aspects of God that are true that you believe or that you're focusing on? But there might be other aspects of God that, that you're not focusing on enough. So some people need to really focus on the fact that you're very selfish and very, self focused. And so you need to focus on the holiness of God. And some people are very hard on themselves and critical and so negative towards themselves. And they need to see the love and the grace of God. So God is so multifaceted.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: And so, and maybe it has to do with, like, their family of origin, the way they see their father, their parents. But having a correct view of God, having a correct view of self, and then having a correct view of God is really important, Darre.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, well, as you know, in counseling, one size doesn't fit all. I mean, we've talked about this before, Krish. Everything boils down to will you trust God? I mean, you have all these different on ramps, but it all hits that point because salvation is trusting the Lord to deal with your sins. walking with God is trusting the Lord by grace, through faith. And so everything's got to go back to that. But there are different hangups that get you there.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah. I'd say the number one theological truth that we have to understand, if I could say one, it would be the sovereignty of God, that God is in complete control, that he's in charge. You could trust him because, he has a track record of being faithful.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: And so you can trust him and that he's not ever caught off guard. And so he knows better than we do. And so I do believe in free will and our choice.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: But God is sovereign. He's in complete control.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, I've shared this before. I was listening to it just, the last couple of days, and I think it's one of the best illustrations I've ever heard. How do you, how do you put those two together? God's sovereignty and man's free will. Obviously, the Bible teaches both. Jesus said, you didn't choose me, but I chose you. And then the Bible says, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. And we have to put our faith and trust in Jesus. So both those things are true. And as MacArthur so, wisely pointed out. Just look at the Scripture it's inspired by God, but it's written by man. And, who wrote Romans? Paul wrote Romans, but he didn't write it by himself. The Holy Spirit wrote Romans. And so you're like, well, who did it?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: But we try and put God in a box. We can't put God in a box. God is holy, meaning he's separate from us. And so we will never fully understand until we see him face to face.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I even said, last Wednesday night, you know, I think in heaven, you're going to. Every day is going to be learning new things about God, because God is infinite, right? And he, Even in our glorified state, we're not going to know God from A to Z, because he's every letter in every Alphabet ever devised. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff shreve here with Dr. Krish Schroeder. And we've been talking about Romans, chapter seven. And what do we do with this thing called the flesh as we battle? And how can we walk in the power of the Holy Spirit? When we come back from the break, we'll be taking your calls and 888-589-8840. That's 888-589-8840. If you have a question or comment, we'd love to hear from you. So give us a call, and let's talk.

 : If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastorjeffromhisheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here. And, as is our practice, we like to open up the phone lines in this third segment. 888-589-8840. That's triple 858-98840. If you have a question, if you have a comment, if you have a brief testimony, we would love to hear from you. We've been talking about, the Christian life. What is the Christian life, really all about? Well, we are dead to sin and alive to God. Romans, chapter 6. But we still deal, with the flesh, and every Christian does. And the Christian life, as somebody once said, Krish, they said, well, I thought when I became a Christian, it would be the end of my problems. And as Adrian Rogers pointed out, well, it is the end. It's the front end. your problems have just begun. There are different kinds of problems now. and you're going to have problems with the world, the flesh, and the devil. You didn't really have a problem with the devil before. Because you were going in the direction he wanted you to go. But now you're on the narrow road that leads to life. There's a lot of, resistance against you, growing in the Lord.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Well, especially you have the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit is the hound of heaven, just bringing conviction. Conviction is good, but it's painful. But it leads you towards repentance and then leads you to change. And so, yeah, once you get on the other side of the cross, that's good. You have salvation. But then there's a lot of room to grow, and you'll be growing for the rest of your life. We never arrive, but we continue to grow, and we can't. We have to remind people that, after Romans 7, you know, Romans 8, one says, therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. Christ Jesus. Right? So condemnation meaning that, you are your sin, that you, your identity is in your sin. Paul understood that his identity was not in his sin, but his identity was in Christ. And so that's a huge issue. So conviction is good because conviction comes from the Holy Spirit and leads to repentance and change. But condemnation leads us stuck because it tells us that our identity is our sin. And that's what we see in our culture with people saying, this is who I am.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: This. Yeah, you're going to have to accept me. Krish, I was thinking too, in counseling, it has to be, I would think, almost all the time, where you have to refer people back to who I am in Christ, that they have to keep hammering. Ephesians 1, in him, in him, in him, as the Scripture says, Ephesians

Doctor Chris Schroeder: is one of the best books to counsel through, because the first three chapters talk about your positional truth, who you are in Christ. You have to understand who you are in Christ. And then four through six is how you live it out, the practice of it.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, as Paul said, I've been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. I'm still alive, but I'm dead, but I'm alive. You know that you have that, as we talked about, you have that hard to understand situation. The Lord does live in me. Everything good in me comes from him. Because in me that is in my flesh there dwells no good thing. and as I walk in the light with Him, I can see him do great and mighty things in my life. But if I don't, if I just talk a big game and I'm not living it out, then he knows it. I Know it and other people start to know it.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Man, theology is so important, you know, who study, of God, who you think of God is so, so important. So you weren't worthy, but you've been made worthy, right? You know, so that worthy, that's kind of. It all hinges on that, right? so what? But it's in Christ, not in yourself, though, right? But you were not worthy. Because our sin on contrast to a holy God. But Jesus made us worthy. And so you can't just keep putting him on the cross. You can't have worm theology where you're just total depravity and you can do nothing good. Because Paul did a lot of great, you know, a lot of good, right?

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And, we can please the Lord, you know. And that was his prayer in Colossians, chapter one. To please the Lord in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with all power according to his glorious might, forgive for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience, joyously giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints. In light I like to look at

Doctor Chris Schroeder: also, don't start your theology with Genesis 3. Start your theology with Genesis 1. And Genesis 1:26 says you were created in the image of God. So that still is true. You know, sin enters the picture, but you still are, created in God's image. And then Jesus gives, us our total connection to God, complete connection to God. We see who God is, and we have complete relationship and connection to God through his son, Jesus.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, you know, I remember having a conversation years ago with James Robison, who is now in heaven, and Debbie, and I got to know him, and he invited us out to his place in Colorado one summer for a few days. And I was asking him about, you know, James, you know, a lot of people, you know, big names in Christendom. And I said, does anybody, you know, not struggle with something? And he said, everybody struggles with something. You know, we talk about, as I talked to Mike Courtney about, you know, the sin which so easily entangles us. Well, it's not the same sin for every single person, right? so some people struggle with substance, some people struggle with comparison. Some people struggle with selfishness. Some people struggle with whatever it might be. We talked about pornography. I ran across this. Krish, let me get you to weigh in on this. So I'd never thought about this before. So it says, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, Patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things there is no law. So he names nine characteristics of the fruit of the spirit. Jon Piper said, you know, I like to think about that, as he said, an eight legged octopus, but it would be nine for all the fruit. And he said, you can have some legs that are fully developed where others aren't as developed. I used to always think of it as it's either all or nothing because if they, the Holy Spirit's in charge, then all those things will be present. But as I really think about it, well, there are areas where maybe we're doing really good with love and joy, but we're struggling with peace. Or maybe we're doing good with love, joy and peace, but we're struggling with self control. How do you see that?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah, I agree. Either as an individual or in a marriage. So we will have couples put that on, like the refrigerator or something. Put those nine, the fruit of the spirit and then look at it as a list and see like, where are we falling short, where are we not? So yeah, I don't think it's all together 0 to 10. I think each one you could categorize. Another thing I want to say with the sin is, we don't want to just pull weeds. We don't want to just see weeds and just pick weeds. We want to get to the root. And so the symptom is the pornography, the drugs, the alcohol, the whatever, the gambling. Those are the symptoms. But the hang up is down into the soil. It's that root. So why, why do I have this sin, tendency? Where is this coming from? What narrative have I believed that's not true? You know, so we got to get, we got to dig deeper and I think we need each other to help to get to that, that depth, to get to really to the heart of it.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: And that's really not easy because people know that they have, they know those symptoms. But it's just like going to a doctor. A doctor's got to ask you a lot of diagnostic questions to figure out what's really going on. Just because you have a fever doesn't mean, well, it can only be X. There are a lot of things that could cause that fever.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: why do I do what I do? Not just what am I doing, but why, why do I keep returning to that? I think it'd be good to just have some good self awareness to start identifying why I keep going to that sin.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so in your experience, Krish, let's take pornography for example. Why? What is the why? For a lot of guys, you,

Doctor Chris Schroeder: know a lot of guys, you'd be shocked at how young they were when it was first introduced to them. And a lot of times it's if it was acceptable in the home, you know, like, if the father. Like, there's situations where the father introduced it to them at a very, very young age. So now that's imprinted on their brain. So that's a whole. Pornography is so dangerous because it's neurological. There's. There's a lot of neurological, that dopamine pathways that are the neurons, the way that they connect, like the, deer path, you know, in the brain. And so that happens from a very young age. So that's why visual, like, pornography is so dangerous. So I like to find out, when did you start looking at the pornography? And for some guys, it's not a father, but it's maybe at school. Someone at school showed that to them. And that addiction has been going on for a very long time.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Krish, as it relates to that, you know, parents of younger children, especially boys, but now it affects girls, too. But how, as a parent, do you protect your child from that?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: I mean, I think that, sometimes you have to do behavioral things so that the heart can catch up and heal or the heart can be protected from things. And so that's where we put up, boundaries. That's where we put up, guardrails, you know, and so, not just letting the kids be in the room with the door shut and just on their phone all the time and not knowing what they're watching, like monitoring what they. What they're watching, because things slip in, you know, algorithm, you know, like, I'll be looking at my phone and something will come up, or a friend request will come up. And I don't want to explore that at all. I want to show that to my wife right away. Hey, this just came up. You know, can you take care of this? If a guy already has an addiction to pornography. Got, to have accountability. That's why we need each other. We can't do this alone. So Covenant Eyes is a good program. Little commercial for Covenant Eyes. They will help. That will help. But we've got to have some accountability. And for guys, accountability cannot be your wife. She's called to be your wife, not your accountability partner. So you need accountability with whatever sin that is. You need men that are speaking into your life, that are willing to speak truth into your life and ask you the question, you know, have you sinned lately? Are you struggling? But the best kind of accountability is when you're able to go to them in your time of weakness before you've already given into that sin. So we have all these groups, like these recovery groups, and they meet together and they say, oh, I messed up again this week. I messed up again. What good is that? So being able to have someone that you could call at any time when you know that you're, you gotta, you're walking into a temptation.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. And, what would you say to the person that feels like, well, I'm the only one with this.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Oh, man. And I think that's a big one. You know, Satan will pour on that shame. So when you sin, shame is going to come. Like that is an automatic response to sin. And shame could either be good or bad. If shame leads you to conviction, to Christ, it's good. If it leads you to the world and to more of self, then it's bad. And so don't, let Satan bury you with the shame, but bring it into the light. So when you're in the dark, bring into the light. So you've got to share. You don't stand up in church and just, you know, give your testimony of sin, but find guys that you can share with. And so you now bring it into the light. And the enemy has, Loses power. When you start, sharing, you start sharing your sin. Now he loses power. Yeah, because he has power in the darkness of that shame.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You know, as we think about that, Krish, I think there are lots of people that, you know, what do you think of when you think of God? That's the most important thing about you. As you mentioned from Aw Tozer. But people that are struggling with a particular sin, whether it's alcohol, drugs, pornography, sexual immorality of whatever kind, gambling

Doctor Chris Schroeder: is on the rise. Gambling is really strong, right now, especially with young men.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Especially legalizing it in states.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, they're destroying people. But when you think about, okay, if I were to stand before God right now, he'd be so disgusted with me. I know God loves me, but I don't think God likes me very much. I think a lot of people probably live there.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Yeah. I mean, just remember Luke 15, you know, remember the story of the prodigal. And remember the father's response to the child and how enormous God's grace is, you know, and just remember that Romans 8:1. There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And so don't let Satan Have a field day with you. But, fight back with the truths of God to remind yourself of who God is and who God says that, that you are. You know, read, read Psalm 139. You know, focus on, your identity in Christ.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, and, and to know. I have to remind myself this constantly to know that God's ways are right concerning everything. Our way, you know, as he says in Ezekiel 18, where the house of Israel is saying, the way of the Lord is not right. And the Lord said, is my way not right? No, it's your way that's not right. And so we can get so full of ourselves that we think, well, I can handle this. This is right. This is what's good for me. Divorcing my wife and marrying this other girl, that really floats my boat. That's a good thing. And the Lord's saying, no, that's not.

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Well, that's all temporal perspective too. So having an eternal perspective, we like things right away. We're fast food society, immediate pleasure. But have an eternal perspective, have an eternal focus, a forever focus. And not. Just don't be a prisoner of the moment.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Krish, as we get ready to close, the program, what resource would you encourage people with something that can really help? And we talked about pornography. What would be something that would really help?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Okay, this is a plug for, Heath Lambert. He's a pastor in Florida of Southern Baptist Church. There's a book called Finally Free. And it's one of the, it's very biblical. He's a biblical counselor. and so that one is the best one that I have found on helping guys find freedom from pornography. And there's even a chapter in there that talks to the wife of a man who struggles with addiction to pornography. But it hits the heart, but very grace oriented, but, very spiritual, very biblical. And so finally free is one that I've really, thought is good.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: How about for identity in Christ?

Doctor Chris Schroeder: Identity in Christ, I'd say Neil Anderson. Anderson does a lot of his work. He talks about identity in Christ, Bondage breakers. he talks a lot about how the most important thing is your identity in Christ.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, thanks for listening to Real Truth for today. And Krish, thank you so much for coming on today. You can always reach, me at the program, Pastor jeffromisheart.org pastorjeffromhisheart.org and, maybe you have an issue that's really, burdening your heart and you need to share it, you need to confess it. you need to just get it out in the open. We would keep all that in confidence, but, feel free, Pastor Jeff, from this heart. Or you can call the church. 903-831-6000. Go out today. Shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you. And God will use you as his witness. God bless.

 

Romans 7:14–25.
"Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

In this episode, Pastor Jeff Schreve is joined by Dr. Cris Schroeder for an honest conversation about the daily battle every Christian faces with the flesh. Looking at Romans 6–8, they explain why believers continue to struggle with sin after salvation and how lasting victory comes through walking in the power of the Holy Spirit rather than relying on human effort.

Together, they discuss common areas of temptation, the importance of confession and accountability, the role of biblical counseling, and the hope found in God's grace. They also examine how the enemy exploits our weaknesses and why Christians must intentionally feed the Spirit instead of the flesh.

This encouraging episode reminds listeners that while the battle with sin is real, God has given every believer the strength to live in freedom and experience victory through Jesus Christ.