: America's 250th birthday. It's a great excuse to have some extra cake and ice cream, but we can help your celebration go well beyond that. Show your patriotism with America 250 apparel that will become a memento of this special year. We also have special episodes on AFA Stream to help underscore that America is a Christian nation and help you find God in the Constitution. Find all of this and more in one place. Afa.net topics250. Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Thursday morning and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. I want to talk to you today about a subject. I preached on, this, some time ago when I was going through the Book of Judges. It's the subject of iron chariots, those, as it says in Hebrews 12, those sins that so easily entangle us, those besetting sins, the sins, as King James says, that so easily besets us. Now, this is what it says in Judges, chapter one. It says, as they were taking the land, you know, they came into the land, and in the Book of Judges starts off that they're conquering the land as God told them to do, driving out the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites said. Then Judah went with Simeon, his brother, and they struck the Canaanites living in Zephath and utterly destroyed it. So the name of that city was called Hormah. And Judah took Gaza and its territory and Ashkelon with its territory, and Ekron with its territory. Now the Lord was with Judah and they took possession of the hill country. But they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. Iron chariots. You know, there are issues in your life, in my life and our lives, as in the Christian life, you start out and there are enemies that you fight, so to speak, with the flesh. And for me it was, okay, I have an X rated mouth. And the Lord, began to work on that and clean that up. And, Jeff, you can't go out with your buddies and go drinking and carousing. And so we clean that up, work on this, work on that, work on the other. But there typically is an area, and for most men, it has to deal. It deals with the lust of the flesh. That's an iron chariot sin. It's a difficult area for others. For many women, it is comparison and living constantly in this state of Comparison and feeling inferior, jealousy, those kinds of things. for some guys it's with money and greed. others it becomes substance abuse and that becomes that iron chariot sin. Well, I have a friend that I've come to know and love over the years. And, his name is Dr. Mike Courtney. And Mike, has a book. It's one of my favorite books. It's called Failure and How I Achieved A Journey From Addiction to Hope. And Mike, tells his story in this book, Failure and How I Achieved It. Such a great title. And, he talks about it does end on a hopeful note. And just how God. It's a Romans 8:28 story. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose. And Mike, was led by God through the valley as, his life cratered. And then God restored him. And he is the founder of Branches, counseling center is called Branches Health in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And Mike is a teaching pastor at Family Worship Center. And so we are working to get him. I see him on our, zoom feed. But, we're working to get the audio worked out. And so we will go to Mike, shortly, as soon as we get that going. but I was thinking about that, you know, Romans chapter six tells us that we're dead to sin. And Romans chapter seven tells us, yeah, but we still have to deal with the flesh we have died with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, Paul said, who loved me and delivered himself up for me. So we have a brand new life in Jesus. Dead to sin, alive to God. But every Christian knows there is the Romans 7 experience, as Paul said. The good that I want to do, I don't do. The evil that I don't want to do, I do, wretched man that I am, who will set me free from this death. And then we read in Romans 8, there is power in the Holy Spirit. How do you live the Christian life? Not by grunting it out in the flesh. Not by trying to conquer the flesh with the flesh, but by yielding yourself to the Holy Spirit of God and, trusting him, day by day by day. And so we're going to talk about that today. How can we live in Romans 8 and how can we deal with those iron chariot sins? Because I know from personal experience and those listening as a Christian, you know, that it can be Discouraging when you run up against that one area of life where you can't seem to get the victory. And, so we want to talk about that today. I believe this program will be very, very helpful. And so, Mike, are you ready?

Mike Courtney: I am. Finally. I'm sorry, I'm obviously not the technological wizard that I thought I was.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, you know, I was looking at you on the screen, and I said, man, that guy, he must age backward. you look great.

Mike Courtney: Thanks, Jeff. Thank you. Good to see you. Always.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, thanks, my brother. And so, for our listeners that don't know, you had, quite a. Quite a health issue with pneumonia and really getting knocked back.

Mike Courtney: Yeah. You know, today is my birthday. Speaking of aging. All right. About three months ago, went into. Done a lot of speaking. I was a little tired, went to my physician, and he did some X rays, said, you have pneumonia. And it's interesting, when you're 50 and you hear you have pneumonia, you think that's okay. How about when you're 73 and you hear that, you think, well, this could be serious. So it was about a two and a half month journey to get over that. But I'm fine. I feel great. I've been playing with my grandkids for two days now. So, I'm good. I'm doing good, thanks.

 : Okay.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: You, are a big tennis player. Still playing tennis at 73?

Mike Courtney: I am. I am, yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: All right. So the knees and everything are good.

Mike Courtney: They are. You know, the nice thing about playing at 73 is that you play so many people younger than you. If you lose, you know, they're younger than you. If you beat them, it's just absolutely morally defeated.

Caroline: Okay.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: I always said this with, you know, we have this transgender insanity, and these biological males want to play against women. Well, when I was growing up, I played basketball. You never wanted to play against a girl in basketball because you. You were supposed to beat her. If she scored on you or was beating you, that was like the. The worst embarrassment of all. So it's like, I'm not guarding that person. You guard them. So.

Mike Courtney: Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Mike, I don't know if you got to hear the intro, but I. I was reading from judges. Chap. You could hear it.

Mike Courtney: Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay.

Mike Courtney: Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So as a counselor, as somebody who's. Who's put your life out in print with one of my favorite books, Failure and How I Achieved It, I would buy the book just for the title. it's such a great, great title. But, you have dealt with people for many, many years that have these iron chariot sins. I heard something the other day from Jon Piper. I'd never quite heard this before, but he said he views the fruit of the sp almost like as, tentacles from an octopus. And he said, you can be strong in love and joy and peace, but maybe not so strong in gentleness. Maybe not so strong in kindness. That hasn't really grown before. I'd never thought about it quite like that. But, I think about the fruit of the spirit, self control. And you deal. When you deal with people with addictions, self control is a big. A big issue there. to say no to certain things, substances and things. in your experience, Mike, why do we tend to have trouble in one area where a lot of times as Christians, we say, I just can't seem to get the victory here.

Mike Courtney: Yeah, good. That's good. you know, and not every case is the same. I need to start out by saying we're kind of talking in generality, and not every has the same exact experience. But many times, and I would say most of the time, we have found something, comes up that we realize was lacking in our early development. I never was made to feel safe. I never knew for sure that I was loved. I didn't have a firm identity. there was never anyone to put boundaries in my life. And we can develop around that perfectly. We can be intellectually sound, we can be, you know, career wise, we can excel. We can develop in so many areas, but we remain stunted in that place where that need was. And so the iron chariots, you know, the sin that besets us, very often I would have to believe that the enemy of our souls is aware of those things and attacks us in that particular area. I'm a great pastor. I have a great love for God. I'm theologically sound and intellectually well developed, But I've never known how to have appropriate relationships with people. I've never known how to set boundaries in those relationships. And so I think that's where the besetting sin comes from. In that. In that place where we are stunted based on the need that we had that was never met. and, you know, one of the frightening things is very often that is decided or not decided by the time we're three or four years old. So, it's a. It's. It's the way God created us, but it's also the weapon the enemy uses against us.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Mike, your story, your family was very dysfunctional. Your father was very dysfunctional. And he was a pastor, which makes it even harder for a kid to reconcile. How does that work? okay. You, and your wife, Doris, Two boys. I mean, obviously you share in the book. There are some issues there in your own life, but the dysfunctionality that you experienced as a little boy growing up was not the same that your boys experienced, correct?

Mike Courtney: Yeah, that's correct. My father was. Was bipolar, and that. What that created for me was, chaos and a lack of safety. the world didn't feel like a safe place. I would. People who have lived with that understand this. when my dad was on, he was great. He was fun and funny and a good pastor. But you could walk. Literally, as this disease progressed, you could. You could be sitting, talking to him, walk out of the room to get a sandwich, and when you came back, he would be a different person. You would. You would see that, and it exhibited itself in rage. And, he could become violent in that. And so that lack of safety for me created this need of. You know, I think I was relatively smart. My wife might disagree with that. I think I was relatively bright. I was driven. in my career, I felt a call. I had a love for God, but because I could never feel safe, on the one hand, it's helpful. It drove me to try to be a successful pastor. If I could preach to enough people, then perhaps the world would be a safe place. It drove me to that, but it also, since that was not enough, also drove me to relationships that would make me feel safe. That was the. That was the need for me. I, on the other hand, went out of my way to make sure my boys felt safe. I wanted to make sure they were safe, that they knew they were loved, that they knew that the world was a safe place for them. And I think I did that. What they experienced from me was, a lack of integrity, because I'm making them feel safe, but I'm not acting in a safe way. They're making me. They're experiencing that from me. And that creates in them then an uncertainty about, About truth, about faith, about. About who God is. And so their struggles and their. That they've handled really well. But their struggles were about that and knowing what we can believe and what we can't believe.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Very good. We're talking to counselor Dr. Mike Courtney. Mike wrote the book Failure and How I Achieved A Journey from Addiction to Hope. He's the founder of Branches Health in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. He has helped, countless numbers of people overcome those iron Chariot sins that we talking about. Sins associated with, substance abuse, addiction, pornography, insecurity, negative, self image. All those things that can really wreck and ruin and cripple a person's life. judges, chapter one talks about they couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the land because they had iron chariots. We're talking about how to overcome those iron chariots sins. You're listening to Real Truth today, and I'm, your host, Pastor Jeff Schrieve. And you're listening to American Family Radio. We're up against a break, but we'll be right back. Don't go away.

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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here. I'm talking to my friend, Dr. Mike Courtney. He is the founder of, Branches Health in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And, Mike Branches is how old now?

Caroline: 20 years old.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: M. Wow.

Caroline: Yes. Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so give me the date when you're in. Was it NewSong Mexico when you're at that clinic in NewSong Mexico.

Caroline: Right. I was in, Phoenix, Arizona.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, Arizona. Okay.

Caroline: Arizona. Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Scottsdale. What year is that?

Caroline: Yeah, that was in, 2004. and, early part of 2004. God did a great work, brought about healing. Doris and I started the journey of getting back together, and we were separated for about another seven months. We knew we were going to be okay, but we knew we had some work to do. he brought reconciliation. I. We all relocated back to Middle Tennessee. the boys and I were doing Well, I was becoming a real estate magnet, which is not true. I was becoming a broke real estate person. That's what I was becoming. But, in. In, early 2005, we had begun to receive calls. I had been on James Robinson's Life Today. James passed away not long ago. And, and he had kind of touted this, promoted the book. I began to receive calls from pastors all over the country saying, hey, I've heard your story. Can I come talk to you? And God very clearly said, I want you to start a counseling ministry with two things in mind. Number one, there would be a marriage between state licensed therapists and pastoral counselors. That you bring the best of both together. And secondly, that you would never turn anyone away because of finances. And so in 2006, Branches was born. And, we've somehow. I don't know how, but somehow we've never turned anyone away. Someone calls and says, I need to come, and we don't have any money. We'll say, okay, we'll make that happen. So God's been good.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, Mike, you're. There's infidelity. Your wife finds out about it, it's the last straw. She says, I'm done. That was right after Easter, right? Didn't you have some big. You had a big Easter service?

Caroline: yes, I. I was pastoring in Orlando, Florida. We had a. We had a big circus tent that we had pitched to do Easter. I always say, you can do that in Orlando. You can't do that in Ohio. But, yeah, and a great day. And Doris and I had moved to Orlando to escape an affair that I had had. And she. It was just more than she could bear. And she called me on Monday. Josh was in college. My oldest son was in college. my youngest son was still at home. And she said, jacob and I are leaving. We can't take this anymore. And I jumped in the car and drove to the apartment, but she was already gone. And that was, you know, kind of the beginning of the beginning. I lost the church, lost my career, lost my children. My oldest son said, dad, I don't ever want to see you again. Don't ever come talk to me again. I don't ever want to see you. And God started this amazing healing process that involved counseling, obviously, and going to a clinic. And so it was out of that, as our healing came, it was out of that, that this passion for, as. As Doris would say, people would say to her, was Mike dealing with sin or Sickness. And Doris says, yes, that it's both of those. And that besetting sin, those. Those iron chariots, very often, what makes them so difficult? It is. It's. It's sin. And when it needs to be dealt with from a spiritual standpoint. But on the other hand, it has to do with. With behavioral health and with emotional needs and with a stunted development. And it. And it requires both of those. It takes both of those. So that's how all of this was born.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So, Mike, you, get that call from your wife, you go home, she's gone, you lose everything kind of in one. It all just kind of hit.

Caroline: Yeah.

Mike Courtney: Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. It would have been easy. And guys have done this to just say, I'm going to go drive off a cliff. I've run my life. Did that go through your mind?

Caroline: You know, it did, but in all honesty, it was not. we, in counseling, we use what we call a slap test. You know, is it, Is it. Is your need real? is it lethal? Is it available? do you have a plan? All those. I wouldn't have passed the slap test, but I. It did go through my mind. Well, what really was more likely of me saying, I'm not going to drive off a cliff. I'm just going to start driving and. And go and disappear and never be seen again? That was. That was the more likely scenario. Yeah.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So I've heard. And no doubt you've heard this. People talk about. I wrote about this in my book. And when it comes to this besetting sin, the illustration of, you know, lord, clean out the cobwebs in my life. Lord, clean out the cobwebs of my life. As this one man was telling this pastor at revival, every night, he'd come and clean, and the guy finally prayed, lord, kill the spider in his life. Okay, so when the bottom dropped out in your life, you'd been preaching the word of God for a long time. Were you able to trace on your own what is causing this in me? Why do I keep falling in this area? Because it's Romans 7, the good that I want to do. I don't. You didn't want to do that, but you kept falling back into it. I think that's the story for so many of us. How long did it take you to connect the dots? This is why this is happening.

Caroline: Yeah. you know, your first question was, was I able to do this on my own? And the answer is, no, I could not do it on my own. This Isn't a paid political announcement for counseling. But I would say that most of us need someone with a trained eye that can stand on the outside and look in and say, do you see how these pieces fit together? Within a week from that phone call, I was at a clinic, in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I would say within a week of being there, maybe within three days of being there. In fact, it was because it was Wednesday, I had that breakthrough moment where I saw, oh, this is it, this is the connection. Now, it's only taken 21 years since then to try to learn how to heal that. but seeing it, recognizing it, making that connection helped me, first of all, to be truthful, to be honest about it. Secondly, to put aside the shame. I am absolutely guilty of everybody. Dumb decision I've ever made, Pastor Jeff. But I am. But the shame is not there because I do see some of the root causes for this. And so I can lay that aside. And then third thing, to develop a consistent, plan of how to watch for that and to know what the triggers are and to avoid that. So in my case, it was a relationship coming up with, ah, a woman that would begin to meet this need of me, this need of not feeling safe. And she began to talk to me about how wonderful I was. By the time I'm five minutes into that, I tell you today, by the time I'm five minutes into that commercial, I mean into that conversation, I'm done. I'm over the cliff. So I've learned to back way up before that and not allow those conversations to get started and not allow my mind to go those places that entertain that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Mike, I've always, been under the, thinking that I, had a friend of mine was telling me, this was years ago, he's telling me about, these situations and married guy with kids and how these women would come on to him. And I thought to myself, I've never had that a woman come on to me like that. And then it dawned on me, well, you're giving her subtly, you're giving her a green light. Because if they know there's a red light, that women don't want to be rebuffed. So they're not going to come to you unless they sense there could be a welcome mat there. Do you think you were subtly doing that?

Caroline: Absolutely. I will never forget in my counseling there at PCs, Dr. Earl, who was the director, he sat with me one day and he, and he used his word. He said, you're a predator. You, you, you Prey on these women. You're a predator. And I. Pastor Jeff, I said, that is not true. These. These women came on to me. I did not do that out. and then I began to recognize how I was opening the door and entertaining those conversations and being. Being kind in inappropriate ways. And, yes, I absolutely believe that one of the important steps is for that person to recognize my part in this, that I. Again, I'm. I am, I'm both being run over by the iron chariots, and I'm driving the iron chariot at the same time. And so, yes, that was. That was crucial for me to understand that.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so the illustration. Lord, don't clean out the cobwebs. Kill the spider. How can people figure out what the spider is?

Caroline: Well, there is a, here's a tool that people can use. there are patterns. If we can kind of go back and look at our story. There are patterns where needs arise. And so a tool that I very often use. I have someone take a large piece of paper and just begin to tell your life story. To draw pictures. Start with the earliest memory and just begin to draw the pictures of your life and fill that up. one of the interesting things in doing that, I, have big old burly masculine men that come in and say, I'm not going to do that. That's crazy. And he'll come back the next week, and he is crying, his eyes are red, and snot all over the place. It just breaks. I began to tell all these stories about, you know, how we moved here and this happened, and it's not difficult as I begin to lay that out again with the help of kind of a trained eye, it's not difficult to begin to see these threads that wind through that. Do you see that in your story? Every time you had a figure in your life that made you feel valuable, they either left or died. You know, your father and your parents divorced.

Caroline: Your.

Caroline: Your second grade teacher moved away. Yeah. And so we begin to see these threads, and I. And I try to trace that back to those. To those great needs that I still feel today. and usually that's the start of the spider. That's where the spiders are in those places. I could not watch.

Caroline: you know, I guess rom com would read the words. I could not watch those movies where the boy and the girl would walk off into the sunset and everything would be good, and they're all summed up and life is good. I could not watch those. It would break my heart to watch those. And I just passed it off as, oh, that's. I'm too manly for that. But I recognized. I could not bear to see those lives that looked whole and safe because there was such a hunger in my life for that. I needed that. That was the spider for me, that there's some kind of safe life out there that I. That I'm not finding. Even though people who. Who looked at me would say, oh, you have a wonderful life.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. Okay, so, Mike, you have, how many? Two siblings, right, and one that passed away.

Caroline: I had three. Three sisters. I was the oldest. The sister right under me was killed in an automobile accident. a few months after that, my father ran off with another woman. And then a few months after that, the baby sister, contracted leukemia and died. So our family went from six to three in just a few months.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Oh, wow. When you have siblings growing up in the same family with the same hurts, and the same dysfunction, that doesn't necessarily manifest itself in the same way as they get older, though, does it?

Caroline: No. I think, to hold true to our illustration, I think the spiders are the same. I think the cobwebs look completely different. And so my. And, we've had these conversations publicly and privately. So my sister and I carry the same pain. And. And really, when you get to the root of it, we're probably looking for very similar things in trying to have those that pain met. Now, she happened to choose a path, by the way, where she could tell funny stories and make a ton of money because of her dysfunction. I'm still a little bit bitter about that. That's another healing that I haven't worked on yet. But, yeah, they. They look completely, completely different. And. And, you know, my own dysfunction led to infidelity, to not being faithful to, interestingly enough, to destroying the very thing I wanted to create. I wanted to create this safe family environment, and I'm destroying it. And her and her issues kind of took her in a whole different direction.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, would you say it's, fair to say that people just. It's kind of like the drug of choice, Whether it's sexual immorality, whether it's alcohol, whether it's drugs, whether it's money, whether it's workaholism. Is it all kind of the same, trying to fill the same hole?

Caroline: Yes. I mean, again, the name of the hole might be different, but there is. There are three or four things that are basic needs for us. We can start with the, you know, hierarchy of needs, but we need to be. We need to Feel secure. We need to have some sense of identity. We need there to be purpose. We need to know that we matter. We need to be those. Those kind of four basic needs. By the way, your believing listeners would say, all that's found in Jesus. Well, I know, I know. But when we don't find it in Jesus, we're looking for one of those four things. And usually our addiction comes out of that.

 : Yes.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Fascinating conversation. we're talking to Dr. Micah Courtney. He is the founder of Branches Health in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. He is the author of the book Failure and How I Achieved A Journey from Addiction to Hope. Mike, that book, you wrote it in 2004, it still sells like crazy. Doesn't.

Caroline: Does it? Does like you say, it might just be cause of the title. People buy it because of the title.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I encourage everybody to get it. It is a book of hope. It definitely is. And, when you read Mike's story, he's very transparent. When you read his story and you say, if God can do that in Mike's life, he can do that in my life, too. You're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here with Dr. Mike Courtney. We're up against a break, but we'll be back with more on American Family Radio. Don't go away.

 : If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back. Pastor Jeff here talking to Dr. Mike Courtney. We're talking about those sins that so easily beset us, those iron chariot sins. the experience that Paul had in Romans 7. the good that I do, I don't do. The evil that I don't want to do, I do. Ah, wretched man that I am, who. Who will set me free from this body of death? I think every Christian who loves the Lord and desires to serve him with all his or her heart. We've experienced that cry in Romans 7 because we know that, hey, I'm failing in this area, and I don't want to keep failing. and it's hard to break through, those iron chariot sins. In this, segment, Mike and I are going to continue talking, but we'll also be taking your calls. 888-589-8840. That's triple 858-9840. If you have a question, of Dr. Mike, I know he's here to, help you with that. So, Mike, tell us. we were talking a little bit at the break, tell us what you have going on. it's exciting stuff. About this new book that you're putting together.

Caroline: Well, let me back up a little bit and say, in the last segment we talked about that, my oldest son saying, dad, don't ever come back again. I don't ever want to see you again. about two years ago, I retired from Branches, and Josh is now the director of Branches. He's taking over Branches. So that's kind of, that's kind of neat. He's my boss. The son that said, I don't ever want to see you again is my boss. He's, done a. He's done a marvelous job. He's really done a great job. And I've told people so many times, I don't know if he had it in him to kind of start from scratch and take it to where it was. I certainly didn't have it in me to take it where he's taken it, the branches, to a whole new level and, reaching people in lots of different ways. One of those is he's very adamant about, social media, about connecting through the things that young people know that old people don't. So we've started a podcast and he asked, he said, dad, I want you to do it because you like to talk. So, we've started a podcast called Extending Branches. And so that's fun and kind of gives a little creative, vent for me. But he also has encouraged me to get back to writing. And so I have two projects that are both kind of doing at the same time, close to being finished. I'm writing the second story, of failure and how I achieved it the last 20 years and what God has done. The miraculous, the miraculous stories of Branches. Just, just unbelievable. if I can tell one quick story about four years ago now, three years ago maybe, we woke up in middle Tennessee to a very tragic event. a school shooting at a, at a Christian school in Nashville. The Covenant School shooting. Branches was called right into the middle of that. We were the, we were the primary counseling group on the ground ministering to the first responders to, to families. That kind of branch is called right in the middle of that. The reason we were called is because of our work with trauma that we have spent so much time. The reason we worked with trauma is because we have a lady in our life, Marilyn Murray, who is a, ah, ah, renowned trauma expert. And the reason she's in our life, Pastor Jeff, is because she was my counselor at PCs 22 years ago when I was there.

Caroline: Wow.

Caroline: Isn't it interesting that God 22 years ago will say, you're going to be needed here. So we're going to put all these pieces together so you can. So I'm writing that story of how many times God has used that, and I'm excited about finishing that and then writing for pastors and performers and people on the stage about how to avoid the besetting sin about doing, Hebrews 6:14 says, we have this hope as an anchor in Christ who for our sakes went behind the curtain. And I'm talking about the work you have to do behind the curtain. So when you step in front of the curtain, you have the healthy, flourishing life that God desires for you.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, let me ask you this. it seems, in my experience, it seems like, I mean, nobody goes through this life unscathed. We all have hurts, habits, hang ups, you know, like celebrate recovery. Talks about. That's everybody. that would be the apostle Paul. I mean, he had hurts habits and hangups. we have victory Romans 8 in Jesus, but we do go back and forth between Romans 7 and Romans 8. in your experience with people, have you ever met somebody that really didn't have any kind of an iron chariot?

Caroline: You know, I'm sure I have. I just didn't believe them when they said that. So an interesting story on that. My wife grew up in an incredibly godly home. Her father was genuinely a saint. They were in church, on the door. They were just wonderful godly people.

Caroline: Not.

Caroline: There's no flaw that you can find. And her sisters are incredible, incredible people. And in some ways that became the iron chariot for them, that they had these incredible godly parents that they could not live up to. And so even, you know, I think having to, we have a family that's been unscathed and having to live up to that, that can become a besetting sin. but more often than not, somewhere along the way, we either have, we're just coming out of, ah, trauma, we're headed into trauma, or we're in the middle of trauma. M. More often than not, that's the case. Jesus said, in this world you will have trouble. So yeah, we're going to face it.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, what do you say to the person who says, well, I have this issue in my life, it disqualifies me. maybe it's with. I'm constantly comparing myself and I just can't beat that. That seems to be, that's a big problem for a lot of people. It's a big problem for women. They constantly kind of look at that. how do they go on even though they know this? Continually defeats me, or holding on to grudges seems to continually defeat me or worry. I just worry about everything. How does that person move forward with that kind of plaguing them?

Caroline: Yeah, that's good. It seems to me that there are kind of four basic needs for healing. From any kind of besetting sin, any kind of struggle, but especially the kind that you're talking about. Where it is about my vision of myself, my self image, I don't measure up. I think these four things, it requires absolute honesty that I have to be willing to tell the truth about, where I'm strong, about where I'm weak. We say in recovery, every time you tell your story, your shame is cut in half. And so I just tell my story over and over and over again. You know, my sister was smarter than me and she was prettier than me. But, you know, God has been good. Every time I tell that story, I cut the shame in half. So absolute honesty. The second is making space in your life for pain of recognizing that life is. Life is hard. the Buddha says life is hard and then you die. glad we don't follow the Buddha, but life is hard. Jesus said, in this world, you will have trouble. and just. And making space for that. So I'm not surprised or derailed by that. The third thing is opening yourself to the image of God in you, genuinely having that moment and rehabbing that moment where I say, it is Christ in me. That's the hope of glory. And I'm not as nice looking as I'd like to be. I'm not as smart as I'd like to be. I'm not as successful. But Christ in me, open yourself to that. And then here's the fourth thing that's maybe the hardest of all, is living a lifestyle of forgiveness, of constantly forgiving myself, forgiving others, forgiving my father for not being the father he should have been, and just. And saying, I will be a person of forgiveness. If I can do that, I can tell the truth. If I can see myself as Jesus sees me, if I can be willing to accept pain and I can forgive, then I can usually set aside these things and run the race that's set before us.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Mike, let me ask you this as it relates to your wife, Doris. How long did it take her to be able to trust you again?

Caroline: She has and such. And, you know, it's Interesting. In my old age, I quote Doris now more than anybody else. She's just amazing. Doris was very quiet, shy and reserved. Not, not the speaker. and man, our roles have reversed. She's just, she's the talker. She just, she says great things. So Doris says two things. She says, number one, I had a transfer of trust. I began to put my trust in Jesus that I'm going to be okay no matter what Mike does. If he does well, I'm going to be okay if he fails again. so she had a transfer of trust. The second thing that she recognizes that as she began to focus on herself and on her own healing and on seeing the image of God in her. Doris will testify. She said, there wasn't a moment where I just said, okay, I'm going to. On focus, forgive. I just woke up one morning and realized I've forgiven this thing. I haven't thought about this. She gave me a card a few years ago, and she wrote on the card, you are the most wonderful husband in the whole world. And I started laughing. I said, have you read my book? No, that's not true. But, so I think doing that, putting your trust in God, focusing on yourself, then brought her to a place where forgiveness was possible.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Well, we have Marty on the line from Iowa. Marty, welcome to Real Truth for today.

Caroline: Thank you, gentlemen. I asked God not to let me cry. I'm amazed in this topic. I am a smoker, and I battled many other things such as pornography and, alcoholism. And God has brought me out of these things like alcohol. You could throw me in a pool of beer and I'll never swallow swim in it. But that's it. He's taking it away from me completely. And, the pornography is something that I have to be outrageously careful with. And having commute conversation with my wife for protection, with other brothers, smoking, I go back to my grandfather. I loved him to death in the late 60s, and it was not a stigma at that time. And he handed me one. And he was a Christian man, a wonderful man. And he, passed away. And I've never been able to let go of smoking. And it just drives me crazy to call myself a follower of Jesus. And, if you two met me, you'd smell me before I got to you because of the tobacco. And it's embarrassing. And I've always asked God, is there some linkage way back, that I just refused to let go of? And I don't understand it. I know he loves Greek, right?

Caroline: It's an embarrassing thing.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: I appreciate honesty, Marty.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, Mike, what would you say to that?

Caroline: Yeah, Marty, first of all, I would say don't let go of all the things you have accomplished, man. You've overcome alcoholism, you've overcome addiction, all pornography. Don't let go of those things. Don't let the devil beat you up. Well, this one thing I'm doing, hold on to that and see yourself in Christ based on those things you have done. But the second thing, it does seem there's the possibility of this emotional tie, this person in your life that meant so much to you. So here's an idea to try. I would sit down. Write yourself a letter from your grandfather. write yourself a letter and tell yourself how proud you are. Your grandfather would, as if he were saying this to you, how proud he is of you, how proud he is of the man you've become, how grateful of all the things you've overcome, remind you of those, and then say, you know what? I should have never started you with this. So I give you permission right now to let go of that. I give you permission and just, and just. See, I'm not suggesting that's just absolute fail safe. But see, if that doesn't release you emotionally from this, then do the things you need to do. Wear the patch and carry a pencil and all those other things that you do. But, but I would, I would start with that emotional break. Let your grandfather set you free from this.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. That's a great, bit of counsel there, Mike. Marty, thanks so much for calling in and thank you for just, your transparency and be encouraged. I always go back, Mike, to, the verse in Proverbs, a righteous man falls seven times and rises again. We can't stay down in the Christian life. We have to keep confessing our sins to the Lord and walking with him. as David said, for you, Lord, are good and ready to forgive an abundant and loving kindness to all who call upon you. So thank you, Marty. Mike, real quick, tell our listeners how they can, how they can connect with you. Maybe get a copy of the book.

Caroline: Oh, absolutely. the easiest thing is branches.org. just go to our website, branches.org all, all one word. also, I do a regular thing, on social media called, Extension Extending Branches podcast that comes out regularly. So those kind of, those are the two best ways. if you'd like to call, people still use phones. our Number here is 61590. 49170.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen. Well, you've been listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here, talking to my friend Dr. Mike Courtney. killing spiders, dealing with those iron chariot sins. Share this with podcast with somebody that could really benefit from it. God bless you.

Judges 1:19
"Now the Lord was with Judah, and they took possession of the hill country; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots."

Why do some struggles seem so difficult to overcome? In this episode, Pastor Jeff Schreve welcomes counselor and author Dr. Mike Courtney to discuss the "iron chariots" and besetting sins that can keep believers trapped in cycles of defeat. Using examples from Judges 1, Romans 7, and Romans 8, they explore the spiritual and emotional roots behind recurring struggles such as addiction, pornography, insecurity, comparison, and unhealthy relationships.

Dr. Courtney shares his powerful testimony of failure, restoration, and God's redeeming grace, explaining how unresolved wounds and unmet needs can fuel destructive behaviors. He also offers practical guidance for identifying the root causes of persistent struggles and finding lasting freedom through honesty, forgiveness, biblical truth, and dependence on the Holy Spirit.

This encouraging conversation reminds listeners that no failure is beyond God's ability to redeem, and that true healing and victory are found in Jesus Christ.