Juror's Doubt and Defense Attorney's Attack on Holdout Juror in Clancy Case
Nancy Grace: Bombshell tonight. A Lindsay Clancy juror actually says, maybe I still believe she's guilty. What? Then she goes on to say, we had to find her not guilty by reason of insanity so she could get the treatment she needs, and she would never get that behind bars. What about intent to murder, three children?
Discussing the Sensational Lindsay Clancy Case and Its Cultural Implications
This, as Clancy's defense attorney, Kevan Reddington, puts a bullseye on the holdout juror, basically saying, here he is. Go and get him.
Sandy Rios: All right. Sandy Rios with you. That was Nancy Grace Of course, only Nancy can say the way things she did the way she did. And actually, we're going to talk about the Lindsay Clancy case today. I have. I have to tell you that I have kind of an aversion to these long trials that are on television every day, because my. My thinking on that is that it's just. It's too sensational. And this one is such a dreadful story, that I just didn't want. I don't like to subject myself to it. And I figure enough people, everybody is talking about it, but there are some things in this situation that I think we need to discuss. And Bruce is going to join me today.
Preborn Ministry Contrasted with Abortion and the Clancy Case's Cultural Impact
of course, he's an attorney and was a former FBI agent, so he has some keen observations about what happened in this trial. And, we're going to talk about that, all of that in just a few minutes. But first, interestingly enough, you know, for me to talk about preborn right now, in light of the woman's murder of her three children, strangling them, it's against God and against nature's God. It's the opposite of what. How God created women to handle their babies. And, of course, abortion's been around for such a long time, so that women have gotten used to killing their babies. And maybe that's a precursor to why Lindsay Clancy was, so favored among women. It's just amazing. PreBorn's the opposite. It's the standard of life, the standard. God standard, in trying to just persuade women to keep their babies. And they do that through ultrasound. They. They. They show the women little photos of, inter. Inter. Uterine of their babies, you know, moving around, sucking their thumbs, whatever. And most women just cannot bring themselves to terminating the life of their baby when they see that. And so when we've had really good success with that, I say we, because I've been working with preborn for a long time, and, just have such respect for the way. And it's the fact that it's successful. I always say I think it's God's way. It's God's way. And so if you'd like to help preborn, so many of you already do, and I thank you so much for that. Go to preborn.com Sandy$28 will provide one ultrasound, and the life of a baby could be saved. So go to preborn.com sandy and make your most generous donation.
Turning Points in Culture: Seeking God's Justice, Not Social Justice
All right, Well, I don't think there's any sitting back and relaxing on today's discussion. I just want to give you some food for thought, because this is, I think, maybe a turning point in our culture. And we'll talk about that Today on Sandy Rios, 24 7, from American Family Radio. Sandy Rios, we are not called to be nice. We are often called to be confrontational. And here with me in D.C. is
Sandy Rios: Fox News contributor Sandy Rios. I think the most important thing we need to demonstrate to our children is genuineness, that we actually believe what we say we believe. Our longtime Fox News contributor, Sandy Rios. Thanks very much for being with us.
Sandy Rios: Seek justice. Not social justice, but God's justice. What's right and what's wrong. Sandy Rios is with the American Family Association, a pro life radio talk show host.
Sandy Rios: We've got to say, this is the line. Life is sacred. Director of Governmental affairs for the American Family Association.
Sandy Rios: Step up, speak up. Say something, do something.
Juror Deliberations and the Tragic Case of Lindsay Clancy Strangling Her Three Children
Speaker C: New details, meanwhile, about the jurors in the Lindsey Clancy murder trial as we learn what was going through their minds as they sat down to deliberate the verdict.
Paula Devlin: Even though we didn't know what was going on outside of our little bubble that we were in, we knew that this was a turning point and this would be something that could change, something to make it better for other women in the future for other families, you know, justice for those children. Is this never happening again?
Sandy Rios: Okay, that's Paula Devin. She's, one of the jurors on, the murder trial of Lindsay Clancy. And, perhaps you think that remark is a little off. And we will discuss that, I promise. But I want to give you just as an example of the precursor, of what happened, it seems, in that jury trial when it was a hung jury, 11 to 1. So I've asked Bruce to join me. I, always like to frame, to join me, but he is an attorney and he was a prosecutor in Chicago and Cook county, before he became an FBI agent. And so, Bruce, could you just. Good morning, sweetheart.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Good morning.
Sandy Rios: Yeah, could you just give us, ah, an overview? Because some people like me don't like to watch this stuff every Day. There's better ways to spend your time. but. So can you just lay out the case and what we're talking about here?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, Lindsay Clancy is a 36 year old mother. she was, employed as a nurse. She lives in Massachusetts, and she was the mother of three children. And in January of 2023, she strangled all three of her children. A five year old, a three year old and an eight month old. And she did that by using exercise bands. And she strangled the oldest one first because in her words, he was a handful.
Discovery of the Clancy Murders and the Intersection of Justice and Mental Health Systems
And then she strangled the other two. then she allegedly, tried to commit suicide. and the way this was, discovered is, Lindsay had sent her husband on an errand. And when he returned home and drove up, he found his wife laying on the sidewalk outside their home, outside the second floor window. She had apparently jumped and she had wounds to her wrists and her neck. when he entered the home, he found the three children dead. And so this started, a, I would call it almost a crusade across this country as to what should be done with people who commit these kinds of crimes. because, you have the intersection of the criminal justice system and the mental health systems. And Lindsay was charged with first degree murder. She went on trial.
The Insanity Defense in Massachusetts and the Hung Jury in the Clancy Trial
what happened is they, they stipulated, or the defense agreed, that Lindsay had killed the three children. But the issue became, was she criminally responsible for, or was she, should she be found not guilty by reason of insanity? And, in Massachusetts, it's the government's burden to prove whether or not someone was mentally, capable of understanding the crime when they committed it. And so a hearing was held. there were 12 jurors at that hearing. the choices were that, Lindsay Clancy had committed the murders and knew what she was doing, even though she may have been depressed or had some social or mental problems. the defense was alleging that she was completely incapable of, not of understanding what she had done because she was hearing voices and the voices told her to commit these murders. there. The jury could not reach a decision after 38 hours of deliberation. and really this is where the trouble, I would call it starts, is the jury is dismissed, it's declared a mistrial. In other words, nothing is settled. We don't know what will happen to Ms. Clancy, whether she will be retried, or whether they will plead guilty to some kind of lesser charge. It's up in the air. But what happened is after the jury was dismissed, some of the jurors, started, Notes had been sent out during the trial that 11 of the jurors had agreed that Ms. Clancy was not guilty by reason of insanity. But there was one holdout juror, and the note was complained to the judge that this holdout juror was not applying the law, was not applying the standard of reasonable doubt.
Defense Attorney's Actions and Jurors' Post-Trial Statements in the Clancy Case
And the defense attorney, man, by the name of Reddington, really went at the judge saying that this juror should be dismissed and that, his client should be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Well, that's a very unusual remedy, I can tell you, from the criminal system. Once you impanel a jury, you do everything you can to keep the jury together and have them come to a unanimous decision. Well, after the judge decided we're going to make a mistrial of this, jurors started making, public appearances. In fact, this woman named Paula Devlin went, on the Gayle King Show. I mean, she goes on a national show and basically lays out the, holdout juror, does everything but. But give you his name, gives you his race, his sex. and there was only one person fitting that description on the jury. So now we have this maelstrom of. Of, what looks like these jurors became activists while they were on the jury. in other words, they weren't deciding this case on its merits. They were deciding this case on. They felt sorry for Ms. Clancy and felt she had not been given proper psychological, treatment before the murders. And that they. And that this,
Assessing Clancy's Actions: Husband's Errand, Exercise Bands, and Apparent Suicide Attempt
That the medical, treatment or lack thereof was the reason that she committed these murders.
Sandy Rios: Okay, so here we are with a hung jury, and, it's up in the air about whether she will be tried again. But, Bruce, let's go back, as an attorney. Well, here. Here's the thing. You mentioned this. She asked her husband to go on an errand, and she had the exercise bands already on the door. You know, the door handles. he actually called her, I think, while he was out, and I think she encouraged him to delay. And so she did all of this. And I heard. I saw two of the policemen that came to the address, right after it had happened. And the first one, upon Lindsay Clancy, said. They both said that she had red marks on her neck and on her wrists, but there was no blood. And so, it looked like she tried to commit suicide. But one wonders how seriously she tried to commit suicide. I think that's what would go through my mind.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Yeah, I don't. I don't know. and really, while that is relevant.
Criminal Intent vs. Mental Incapacity and the Nuances of Postpartum Depression Claims
It's really not the deciding factor as to whether or not she was mentally capable of, forming what we call mens rea, which means intent, the criminal intent to kill these children. lots of people, ah, are suicidal. It doesn't mean that they cannot control or do not know what they're doing. most people that commit suicide understand what they're looking at doing. because in a criminal case, it's a very high burden if you try to put forth an insanity defense. Because everyone would put that forth if it wasn't so difficult. You know, anyone that's a criminal would say, well, I'm just insane. That's the reason I commit my crimes. And we can't allow that in this society. We have to have objective standards. And one of the things that was being claimed by the defense in this case is, postpartum depression. and, you know, look, I've not been a mother. I have not gone through anything like that. but I, you know, I understand that there are things called the baby blues. most women go through. it's some. Some kind of depression. Not all, but many. but many of us are depressed. But it doesn't mean that we're allowed to strangle three young children.
Premeditation in the Clancy Case and the Suspicious Claim of Hearing Voices Once
It doesn't relieve us of our responsibility. And when you have this kind of a case, what you have to look at as an investigator is what Sandy was just alluding to, the circumstances around which it was done. And in this case, the defendant, Ms. Clancy, sent her husband on an errand. So in other words, he would be out of the house. She had already arranged for these exercise bands to be available to strangle the children. these are things that show premeditation.
Sandy Rios: Absolutely. Doesn't sound like, you know, just, she's out of control. If you're out of control, you do it in the moment. I would think, not like you think through everything.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): She also claimed that she heard voices. However, she claimed that she only heard the voice on one occasion, and that was telling her at the time of the murder, telling her to murder her children. If you look, at psychiatric care, usually if people hear voices, they don't just hear them once. They hear them on multiple occasions.
Sandy Rios: Yes, yes. I mean, I felt that really stood out to me too, Bruce, about the voice. She heard a voice one time in her life. Her psychologists, the people that were working with her, all knew that. I mean, she'd never talked about voices before. And suddenly she claims that before doing this, she heard a commanding Male voice, you know, sort of commanding her to do this.
Jury Demographics and Concerns About Feminist Ideology Influencing Verdicts
And so that's suspicious to me, too. That just sounds like planning and plotting. I'm sorry. So, then we go to the jurors. Bruce. And I've watched several of their comments. The foreman is a special ed teacher. and I saw three of them together, and they just strike me as feminists. They just do. And I think they were pretty sure about what they wanted to do before they went into that jury. Jonathan Turley was on Fox yesterday, and he basically said that, too. He said, we, we lost that case, or that case was lost in jury selection because, these women were. Had a propensity. They had a propensity to sympathize with the murderer, because of their feminist past. And I'm going to go into feminism a little bit later. But, also just being a teacher. Teachers are so liberal now. And this is Massachusetts, you know.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, you know, having gone back to 1982, my experience in the criminal justice system as a prosecutor, I witnessed it even back then. That's, you know, 40 years ago, what we would call jury nullification.
The Voir Dire Process and the Oath Jurors Take to Uphold Facts and Law
When a panel of jurors is selected, they go through what is called voir dire. In other words, a panel of jurors is brought in. Both the defense and the prosecutors are allowed to question them about certain things. And usually both sides have some background information on each juror before they get there. there's a system of challenges. Depending on the severity of the crime, each side is allowed to dismiss a certain number of jurors, what we call without cause. In other words, I just don't think this person is right for the jury. I think they have a bias. So I'm going to dismiss them. Okay, so you go through that process, and eventually you settle on 12 people that will be the actual jurors. And then usually there's at least two alternates. In this case, I think there were six alternates. And here's the rub, though, is after the jury is selected, they are given an oath, and the jury is sworn. It's just like a witness is sworn in, the jury is sworn in. And what do they swear to? They swear to follow the facts in the case. only the facts in that particular case. Not any biases that they bring in, not any past experiences. You can use your past experience to make a judgment, but you can't bring a bias in that. Like, in this case, what we're seeing is it looks like these women on this jury came in Almost like activists for, this condition, this postpartum. And you know, they've talked in the interviews since they were given the mistrial, that they feel like they were turning the page, they were bringing a new beginning for women. and that this, you know, basically they were activists and pioneers for the wrongs that have been done to women over the years. You know, there is a time and a place for something like that. If you feel that way, you can go through other avenues, but you do not use the jury system to do that. how can this person get a fair trial or the government get a fair trial if everyone is going into the jury box as an activist, right,
Jury Activism and Examples of Jury Nullification in Criminal Cases
Sandy Rios: with a political thing in mind or an outcome in mind that's different than the trial itself?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): And I can tell you I have very strong feelings about the jury system. I don't like it. I've seen it on too many occasions where I'll tell you what would. I'll tell you what happened in one of my trials. We had a dead bang winner. Armed robbery of a gas station. Threatened to shoot the, clerk. Gun shoved in his face. absolute trauma. But the witness was great, identified the two men that did it. They were apprehended shortly thereafter with proceeds of the robbery. On and on and on. The case was rock solid. And when the jury went to deliberate, two of the jurors locked themselves in the bathroom because they were holding out that these guys were innocent. And I won't get into the racial complications of it, but basically they were saying, you know, I look at these two men and they could be my sons and I'm not going to find them guilty of this crime.
Sandy Rios: So that's the same kind of thing.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Yes, it's totally the same thing. It's the same thing. It's activism.
The Overwhelming Evidence Case and the Dangers of Sympathy in Jury Deliberations
It's, you know, my mother was foreman of a, of a murder case and she said it was absolute dead bang winner. My mother had a lot of compassion, but she said this thing was so clear, it was unbelievable. And they had one holdout juror, and every time they asked her, you know, why she was holding out, she couldn't give him a reason other than just, I just don't think he did it. And like I say, the evidence was overwhelming. She finally came, around and they had a unanimous verdict. But it's, you know, we can't have that in society. If we're going to let, everyone loose just because we feel sorry for them, well, then we're going to have a lot of murderers running around the streets.
Sandy Rios: Well, case in point. you know what? I'm going to play that clip from Paula Devon one more time, and then I want to talk about as a result of.
Revisiting Juror Paula Devlin's Statements on the Clancy Trial's Turning Point
Just give an example. And this, the Chicago incident I'm going to ask for. So this is clip 8. Let's listen to it again. This is, one of the jurors, and she's probably the one that's been on television the most. This is clip eight.
Speaker C: Again, new details, meanwhile, about the jurors in the Lindsay Clancy murder trial as we learn what was going through their minds as they sat down to deliberate the verdict.
Paula Devlin: Even though we didn't know what was going on outside of our little bubble that we were in, we knew that this was a turning point and this would be something that could change, something to make it better for other women in the future, for other families, you know, justice for those children. Is this never happening again?
Sandy Rios: Yeah.
The Absurdity of Finding a Mother Not Guilty to Help Other Children
So this never. Justice would be for those kids, that this would never happen again. So we're going to find her not guilty because, you know, all women suffer when they have children, and we're going to make sure this never happens again. So, Bruce, what happened?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, when you have people that think like that, I mean, that is completely ridiculous. like, by finding the mother not guilty, we're going to help other children. in fact, you could do just the opposite. And I think that's what happened. on the same day that the Clancy jury was deliberating in Chicago, in Frankfort, Illinois, there was a copycat murder. And this is what you always have to be wary of, is that people, if they see someone get away with something, they often do copycat crimes just like that.
Copycat Murder in Frankfort, Illinois, Linked to the Lindsay Clancy Trial
And what happened here is we had a mom, Corrie Walsh, 40 years old, with four children. She killed her two year old after spending hours online in these chat rooms that were dedicated to the Lindsay Clancy trial. And, what she claimed is that she heard a, voice of the devil calling Barrett the antichrist and the devil, and that she needed to kill him. So what did she do? She took her young child, two, year old, I believe, and hung him from the rafters in the basement. Ah.
Sandy Rios: And she was a devotee to everything that was happening in the Lindsey Clancy trial.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): And you talk about trauma. She has other children. They came home from school and they found their sibling hanging in the basement.
The Horrific Scene at the Walsh Home and Chat Room Discussions on the Clancy Trial
They got a neighbor to come over. The neighbor found the child, tried to give it CPR, was unsuccessful, went upstairs. The mother, Corrie Walsh, was in the bathtub with some Self inflicted wounds.
Sandy Rios: Oh my gosh, this is a copycat for sure.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Yeah. And they have an 8 month old child was left unsupervised while all this was going on. and again this occurred while the Clancy jury was deliberating. And after all kinds of research done by this mother, Corrie Walsh, about what was going on in the Clancy, trial, she was in a chat that believed that Lindsay Clancy had not been the one that killed her children. She believed that the husband had killed. Kill the children.
Precedent Set: The Dangers of Justifying Child Murder Due to Depression and Social Media Influence
so anyway, that's the problem is now you have a precedent possibly set that you know, it's okay to kill your children if you're depressed after you have a baby or if you're depressed for other reasons.
Sandy Rios: Yeah. Well, Bruce, you know, right when the, when the trial started on TikTok and other social media platforms, women were weighing in, about how miserable they were and how they all, they agree. I think some even said they wish they could kill their babies. And it was like a plethora, wasn't like one or two. the TikTok, was filled with women who were unhappy and didn't want to have their children anymore. So I look for more of this to happen, I think, and that's the danger of it. But back to this particular trial. There were nine women and three men. There was one black juror and initially, as I recall, three, three juror jurors thought she was guilty, that she had killed her children and willfully, you know, knew what she was doing.
Jury Dynamics: Persuasion Tactics and the System's Perceived Failure in the Clancy Case
And these women that we've just described and played, we played the voice of one of them. We have some other clips, but I don't know that we'll get to them. they talked very freely about how they persuaded and how they. And then one of them said everybody knows she killed them. That's what she says. But the issue is that she, you know, she had all of these drugs and you know, and she people the, the system is responsible because they failed her. That's what they said. And so outside the courtroom there were women, throngs of women every day dressed in pink, waving signs for Lindsay Clancy. That's how sick this thing became. But Bruce, we should talk about.
Gayle King's Reaction to the Holdout Juror's Race and Accusations of Racism
They pressured two of the three that thought Lindsay Clancy was guilty, but they could not pressure this one juror. And I wish we had this clip, but Gayle King, was interviewing, Paula Devlin on her show and she pressed her a little bit about this juror and finally she said was Gayle King said, hey, he was black. And Paula Devin said yes, and Gayle King just was back at her chair and she said, I've got to think about this. Because she never thought, how could it possibly a black man not, believe that this woman was guilty and hold out like that? I don't know why she thought that, Bruce.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): I don't know. She said, I have to sit with this for a moment.
Sandy Rios: I have to sit with this for a moment.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): I mean, to me, that was so racist. It was unbelievable, you know, that she thinks just because a gentleman is black, I have no idea why she thinks that equates to he will find this person not guilty.
Doxing Jurors: A Threat to the Judicial System and Civic Duty
I have no idea why she thinks that way, but she does. And I'm telling you, Sandy, this could unlock Pandora's box. we've seen this in all kinds of venues, doxing of people identifying people. If you start to dox jurors, in other words, give their identity m. You know, it's hard enough to get people to serve on a jury as it is. I can tell you that people will try anything to get off a jury. and you hope that there's enough, what I would call civic minded people that will actually serve on these juries. But now if you put the fear of, you know, if I rule the way, people don't want me to, my life is going to be destroyed. Because I'll guarantee you this juror is going to have hell to pay.
Sandy Rios: You know, Bruce, let me say in one of the interviews with the women, the jurors, they described this man as, ah, very well dressed. He's in his 30s, I believe, very well dressed.
Defense Attorney Kevin Reddington's Attacks on the Holdout Juror
They thought maybe he was a professor at a university. That's how, I guess sophisticated his affect was. And so, But I'm going to read to you, you have alluded to this, and I want to know your response to this. The defense attorney, Kevan Reddington, came after that holdout jury juror. And I want to read you a couple of things he did. This is from Jonathan Turley. Reddington went outside the courthouse and attacked the holdout juror. He said it was a repugnant and unprofessional venting by counsel who should be reaffirming the right of every juror to stand with their conviction against not just the other jurors, but the world. Now, previously, Reddington had lit up the courtroom, which was being aired nationally with his attacks on the juror. Reddington only knew that the other jurors were unhappy with the juror and said that he refused to follow the law. He slammed into the juror, who was already identified as just one of three males. he said that he shredded the juror as presumptively anti disability and akin to a racist on the jury. I hope that guy can sleep well at night, he said. And then he came back. He said what he did was the juror is unethical and contemptible.
Attorney's Ethical Obligations and the Need for Juror Sequestration
And he suggested Redington. This is the last thing Bruce suggests, that no reasonable juror could have reached such a view, despite many in this country who saw his client as a troubled murderer, but a murderer nonetheless. Okay, so what's the deal with that? What are the rules, that apply to attorneys, Attorneys in a case like that?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, first of all, he should be brought before the bar committee, because when you are an attorney and you're sworn into the bar of a state, you are considered what they call an officer of the court. In other words, you are there as a defense attorney to give a vigorous defense of your, of your client. But you are not there to blow up the system. You are when you agree to join the bar, when you swear in, you will follow certain rules, and those rules are, however, the jury rules. That's what you have to live with. Now, you can, again, you can give a vigorous defense, but this was an attack.
The Influence of Outside Information on Jurors and the Problem of 'Outside Noise'
This was an absolute out of court, attempt to influence the outcome of this case. And, you know, the problem with a jury is if they are there deliberating for more than a day, usually they're allowed to go home. Sometimes they're sequestered. And I always thought that all juries should be sequestered. In other words, they're put into a hotel. They're not given access to their phones, they're not given access to tv, they're not given access to outside news. And they're only there to decide this case based on what they've heard, not on news reports. And that, because what happens is when jurors are allowed to go home, if they haven't reached a verdict by the end of the night, they go home, they talk to their families, they get text messages, they see television reports, radio reports, now the Internet. I never had to deal with this. But now the Internet is full of people like these chat rooms.
Interviews with Jurors: Focusing on the Holdout Juror and the 'Doxed' Juror
And now how are you going to know how to rule? Because all this information is coming at you. And it's not the facts that were presented in the case. It's all this outside noise. And I'll tell you, I don't think these interviews should be allowed after the case is over, I don't know how you stop them. A person is free to do what they want when they cut loose from the jury. But I just think this is despicable. And the way they're going about this, they're not. see, if these women were just on a crusade to make the system better, why would they spend so much time talking about the holdout juror? That would be irrelevant. If they want to say, look, we listened to how this woman was treated, and we think it's wrong, that's one thing. But to put the blame on this juror, that doesn't help anything.
Sandy Rios: Yeah, they villain. He's been doxed. And one one channel in Boston, Bruce showed his picture.
Jurors' Statements on the Holdout Juror and the Sympathetic Reaction to Lindsay Clancy
I've seen it. so, no, it's just a terrible thing. It really is. And it just really is a perversion of our judicial system. Now, one thing that they said, these women jurors, they talked about him being the holdout, and they said, he just kept saying, basically, I'm. I am blending two or three different statements. First of all, everyone knows that she killed her children. Everyone knows that. That's what a juror said. But then another one said, but he just kept holding on to the fact that he couldn't get over that this woman had murdered her children. He would not get off of that. And, then they thought it was such an injustice to Lindsey, so they started this whole sympathetic thing to Lindsey, which is having great effect. But this juror now has been doxxed. And, I don't know, Bruce. He's probably in danger.
Governor DeSantis Offers Sanctuary to Juror; Blaming Jurors Hinders Systemic Improvement
I don't know.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, Ron DeSantis here in Florida, the governor has offered him sanctuary here. That's how serious he thinks the situation involving this juror is. and again, I'm telling you, if these women want to go on a crusade to make the system better,
Sandy Rios: blaming,
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): this juror is not the way to do it. This juror listened to the evidence, and he made his decision. He has nothing to do with how Lindsey, Clancy was treated medically, how she was treated by the police. Nothing. It has nothing to do with that, Bruce.
Sandy Rios: The way they characterize how they feel. We're for Lindsay. We're for Lindsay. Which is not. That's a stupid thing to say.
The Difference Between Supporting a Person and Supporting Innocence or Guilt
I mean, you could really like a, ah, person that you are considering their crime. but it doesn't. You're not for that person. You're for their innocence or their guilt.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): You know what happens in these cases. Think of the O.J. case, he basically cuts the head off of two people, Ron Goldman and his wife. And I was living in Los Angeles when that case was going on. And I worked with all kinds of people who went to the University of southern California where O.J. simpson played football.
The O.J. Simpson Case and the Dangers of Fascination Derailing Justice
And it was amazing to me how they let their fascination with OJ the football player completely derail the fact that, yeah, that's all great, he was a great football player, but he cut the heads off two people. And doesn't that M matter more than, gee, we think OJ's a great guy. I'm for OJ, I'm for OJ, I'M for OJ. I mean, this is the same situation. this mother strangled three children, I think in cold blood. She has problems. look, this is a terrible situation. She was medically treated with all kinds of drugs, tried different therapies. But that does not excuse you cold bloodedly putting ligatures, putting those exercise bands around your children's throats and killing them. Think about that.
The Unexcusable Nature of Clancy's Murders Despite Her Personal Struggles
And these women think, oh, well, you know, it's not her fault.
Sandy Rios: Well, Bruce, let's talk about, I want to talk now. This is something about which I know a lot about. I'm a woman, first of all. And, I've watched these things develop through the decades, really.
The Evolution of Feminism: From Reaction to Victimhood and Perversion
And the first one that came along was, well, feminism really was first started. Gloria Steinem just died. But this whole, victim thing, that women are victims now, I know that back in the, Even in the 50s, women were still, in many cases not treated well, but not in all cases, but certainly in the workplace. And I could tell you stories, and there are reasons why there was frustration about their ability to work and do jobs that men did and all of that. I understand that when my sister, who's, older than I was growing up, women could be nurses, teachers and what. There was one other thing, secretaries. And that was it. Really and truly, that was it. And I remember my sister was a secretary, three major corporations, the executive secretary to the chairman. And she told me lots of stories about how they were treated. And so I, know that that was a problem. And so this was a reaction. Feminist feminism was a reaction to that. But it became a, ah, hobby horse. And it really became perverted.
Generations of Feminism: Teaching Daughters Independence Over Domestic Responsibilities
Rather than just speaking the truth with shades of gray or shades of whatever, women, all women now are victims. And now we've had several generations of women who feel that they, they don't want to cook, because they're not, they're not housemaids they don't really want to clean. They. And I think this bleeds over into taking care of children because trust me, it's a lot of work. I guess your mom's noticed that. But we deserve better because we're women and we're smarter than men and we are more capable. We could do everything they can do. This is the kind of thing that has been taught to our daughters and handed down since the 60s. And I've seen the fruits of that. I'm sure you have too. And then out of that came abortion. And because 1973, that's when Roe versus Wade was passed. And the Supreme Court legalized abortion at that time for all nine months. And so where did that come. The country was not pro life, and it was a shock, the court to the top down, thing for this country.
Roe v. Wade and the Hardening of Hearts Through Abortion
It was a horrible thing that they did. But abortion over the years has hardened. You've heard me talk about this before. Has hardened the hearts of women. I've seen it, in my generation, and I see it in younger women. I saw that in the faces of the girls standing behind the, the, governor of Massachusetts that she signs this horrific abortion for all nine months bill. And they're all young women and they're just smiling. they think this is great. I see, you know, the manifestation of the, the, abortion pill, the abortion RU486 is what we used to call it, that, kills the baby and then expels it. And it is now 80% of abortions in this country. So girls at home are taking the lives of their own baby. They are giving birth at home. You understand that, there's nothing magic about that baby moving through the canal. It's giving birth and they're happily doing that at home. I know some have regrets.
The Psychological Impact of Abortion and the Nature of Women's 'Rights'
I can't even imagine the psychological effect of that on women in the future. Maybe. We're already seeing that. And so it's so against nature. God created women to love their babies so much that they would give their own lives. There's lots of stories in history about women sacrificing themselves to save their babies, but no more women. Women deserve, you know, they deserve this, they deserve that. They deserve everything because they're women and they're smarter and they're bigger and they're greater. Not bigger, but they're greater. And so they, they've just been, angry.
Marxist Oppressor/Oppressed Ideology and its Effect on Women's Hearts
They've been the oppressed class. And this is really our, Marxism. It's the, the oppressor and the oppressed and so Gloria Steinem and the feminists took that on. Women are the oppressed, and women are men, are the oppressors. And so it has hardened the heart of women, on abortion, because they've done something that is so unnatural, it is against nature, and it is against nature of God.
Confessing Abortion: The Path to Forgiveness and a Clear Conscience
And the only way they can excuse it is to get hard about it. Because I know many, if they're. If they ever come to grips with what they actually did, they can't bear it. And I always say to those of you listening who had an abortion, the best, most healthy thing that will help you. Many of you are depressed. Maybe you've never been able to have children since that time. and the best way to handle this is really confess it to the Lord. Just confess it. Confess what you've done. Don't say, I made a mistake.
The Culture of 'My Way' and the Fear of More Tragic Incidents
I. I killed my child, is the more appropriate thing to say to God, because he knows and beg and ask for forgiveness, and he will forgive you. You'll feel so much of that weight lifted off of you. But obviously, we're living in a culture that, you know, is intent on doing it my way. I'll have it my way. I deserve this.
The Consequences of Societal Sympathy Over Accountability for Crimes
I deserve that. And that's how I think this happened. And I'm afraid for our future. I look for us to have more of these, incidents like we just had in Chicago. Copycat incidences of women killing their children. I dread it. But I'm afraid that's the can of worms we just opened up. Anything else you want to say, honey, before we say goodbye here?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, I may sound a bit hard in the way I talk today, and that's always a problem. when you act as a law enforcement person is you're trying to balance empathy for people with the fact that they've committed a crime.
Justice, Accountability, and the Role of Government in Maintaining Order
I don't wish any bad on Lindsey Clancy. I. I'm not out to, you know, fry her or anything, but we can't have a society where because you feel sorry for someone, they're forgiven for their crimes. you can have empathy, you can have sympathy, but there must be accountability. And sometimes when you're the one that has to seek accountability, you. You come off as the bad guy.
Sandy Rios: That's true.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): And you just have to accept that if you're going to do that kind of job.
Sandy Rios: Well, you know what? I'll close by saying, I start the show every day, and you hear me talking about justice, real justice, God's justice. God's justice is what's right.
The Dangers of Present-Day Evil and Its Predicted Unfolding
And what's wrong. And, just as God has to be severe sometimes on us and on countries and nations, and he expects us to be severe as a. Not personally. We're not allowed to kill people or punish them personally for, crimes they've committed. But as corporately as Romans 13 talks about very clearly, we have to bring justice. That's the only thing that brings order and prevents what they've done with Lindsay. I'm. I'm telling you, this is giving permission to all of these women to do the same. And I'm. I just fear that's what we're looking at.
Repentance and the Path to a Clear Conscience for Those Who Had Abortions
But, we realize that evil is getting more powerful, and we're watching it happen. And so, God told us it was going to be that. And if one positive thing about this horrible thing is that we're seeing things unfold as he predicted. So, I just really do. My heart goes out to any of you who've had an abortion. I've never felt superior about the fact that I have not. But for God's grace. I was a Christian early, and I knew God and knew his ways, and I was protected by that. It wasn't because I was a superior person. I don't know where you were in your life when you had an abortion, but you need to repent.
Teaching Children About Life's Preciousness and Rejecting Demands for Rights
I beg you to repent. Certainly I've committed other sins, and I've had to repent for all of them. All of them, in order to be right with God and have a clear conscience and really then be able to speak to children, your children, as you're raising them, about. You speak from experience about what you've done and the bad choices you've made. And so, I'm not saying you should tell your children every mistake you've made. I'm not suggesting that. But by that experience and by having a clear conscience, you can speak with conviction to your children and train them differently, teaching them the preciousness of life. And the fact that, we don't deserve anything. Women or men cannot demand their rights. And, so because we don't have rights, God is the one who judges, us and not.
The Possibility of a Retrial for Lindsay Clancy and Jury Conviction Challenges
Not men to women and men and women to men. there's no difference in Christ. There is neither bond nor free, male nor female. So there's an equality that we can't forget. Well, I think we've said enough on this. Lindsey Clancy may have a retrial. We'll see if that happens. I heard, Jonathan Turley say he doesn't think that she'll get a she. They won't be able to find a jury in Massachusetts that will convict her. He might be right, but we'll see what happens.
Supporting Preborn Ministry: Saving Lives Through Ultrasounds and Generous Donations
Well, I want to thank you for listening today, and I want to remind you that preborn, the one that is the business of saving lives, is our sponsor. And if you'd like to provide for one ultrasound or two or three or four, it's $28 for each one provided to a mom who's in a pregnancy that she's not sure about, just go to preborn.com sandy, that's preborn.com/sandy, and make your most generous donation. And, honey, thank you for joining me.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Thank you for having me.
Sandy Rios: Thank you, honey.
Thank you for listening to today's edition of Sandy Rios, 24 7
All right. Thank you for listening. Oh, yeah. And thank you for listening to today's edition of Sandy Rios, 24 7. Sam m.
Juror's Doubt and Defense Attorney's Attack on Holdout Juror in Clancy Case
Nancy Grace: Bombshell tonight. A Lindsay Clancy juror actually says, maybe I still believe she's guilty. What? Then she goes on to say, we had to find her not guilty by reason of insanity so she could get the treatment she needs, and she would never get that behind bars. What about intent to murder, three children?
Discussing the Sensational Lindsay Clancy Case and Its Cultural Implications
This, as Clancy's defense attorney, Kevan Reddington, puts a bullseye on the holdout juror, basically saying, here he is. Go and get him.
Sandy Rios: All right. Sandy Rios with you. That was Nancy Grace Of course, only Nancy can say the way things she did the way she did. And actually, we're going to talk about the Lindsay Clancy case today. I have. I have to tell you that I have kind of an aversion to these long trials that are on television every day, because my. My thinking on that is that it's just. It's too sensational. And this one is such a dreadful story, that I just didn't want. I don't like to subject myself to it. And I figure enough people, everybody is talking about it, but there are some things in this situation that I think we need to discuss. And Bruce is going to join me today.
Preborn Ministry Contrasted with Abortion and the Clancy Case's Cultural Impact
of course, he's an attorney and was a former FBI agent, so he has some keen observations about what happened in this trial. And, we're going to talk about that, all of that in just a few minutes. But first, interestingly enough, you know, for me to talk about preborn right now, in light of the woman's murder of her three children, strangling them, it's against God and against nature's God. It's the opposite of what. How God created women to handle their babies. And, of course, abortion's been around for such a long time, so that women have gotten used to killing their babies. And maybe that's a precursor to why Lindsay Clancy was, so favored among women. It's just amazing. PreBorn's the opposite. It's the standard of life, the standard. God standard, in trying to just persuade women to keep their babies. And they do that through ultrasound. They. They. They show the women little photos of, inter. Inter. Uterine of their babies, you know, moving around, sucking their thumbs, whatever. And most women just cannot bring themselves to terminating the life of their baby when they see that. And so when we've had really good success with that, I say we, because I've been working with preborn for a long time, and, just have such respect for the way. And it's the fact that it's successful. I always say I think it's God's way. It's God's way. And so if you'd like to help preborn, so many of you already do, and I thank you so much for that. Go to preborn.com Sandy$28 will provide one ultrasound, and the life of a baby could be saved. So go to preborn.com sandy and make your most generous donation.
Turning Points in Culture: Seeking God's Justice, Not Social Justice
All right, Well, I don't think there's any sitting back and relaxing on today's discussion. I just want to give you some food for thought, because this is, I think, maybe a turning point in our culture. And we'll talk about that Today on Sandy Rios, 24 7, from American Family Radio. Sandy Rios, we are not called to be nice. We are often called to be confrontational. And here with me in D.C. is
Sandy Rios: Fox News contributor Sandy Rios. I think the most important thing we need to demonstrate to our children is genuineness, that we actually believe what we say we believe. Our longtime Fox News contributor, Sandy Rios. Thanks very much for being with us.
Sandy Rios: Seek justice. Not social justice, but God's justice. What's right and what's wrong. Sandy Rios is with the American Family Association, a pro life radio talk show host.
Sandy Rios: We've got to say, this is the line. Life is sacred. Director of Governmental affairs for the American Family Association.
Sandy Rios: Step up, speak up. Say something, do something.
Juror Deliberations and the Tragic Case of Lindsay Clancy Strangling Her Three Children
Speaker C: New details, meanwhile, about the jurors in the Lindsey Clancy murder trial as we learn what was going through their minds as they sat down to deliberate the verdict.
Paula Devlin: Even though we didn't know what was going on outside of our little bubble that we were in, we knew that this was a turning point and this would be something that could change, something to make it better for other women in the future for other families, you know, justice for those children. Is this never happening again?
Sandy Rios: Okay, that's Paula Devin. She's, one of the jurors on, the murder trial of Lindsay Clancy. And, perhaps you think that remark is a little off. And we will discuss that, I promise. But I want to give you just as an example of the precursor, of what happened, it seems, in that jury trial when it was a hung jury, 11 to 1. So I've asked Bruce to join me. I, always like to frame, to join me, but he is an attorney and he was a prosecutor in Chicago and Cook county, before he became an FBI agent. And so, Bruce, could you just. Good morning, sweetheart.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Good morning.
Sandy Rios: Yeah, could you just give us, ah, an overview? Because some people like me don't like to watch this stuff every Day. There's better ways to spend your time. but. So can you just lay out the case and what we're talking about here?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, Lindsay Clancy is a 36 year old mother. she was, employed as a nurse. She lives in Massachusetts, and she was the mother of three children. And in January of 2023, she strangled all three of her children. A five year old, a three year old and an eight month old. And she did that by using exercise bands. And she strangled the oldest one first because in her words, he was a handful.
Discovery of the Clancy Murders and the Intersection of Justice and Mental Health Systems
And then she strangled the other two. then she allegedly, tried to commit suicide. and the way this was, discovered is, Lindsay had sent her husband on an errand. And when he returned home and drove up, he found his wife laying on the sidewalk outside their home, outside the second floor window. She had apparently jumped and she had wounds to her wrists and her neck. when he entered the home, he found the three children dead. And so this started, a, I would call it almost a crusade across this country as to what should be done with people who commit these kinds of crimes. because, you have the intersection of the criminal justice system and the mental health systems. And Lindsay was charged with first degree murder. She went on trial.
The Insanity Defense in Massachusetts and the Hung Jury in the Clancy Trial
what happened is they, they stipulated, or the defense agreed, that Lindsay had killed the three children. But the issue became, was she criminally responsible for, or was she, should she be found not guilty by reason of insanity? And, in Massachusetts, it's the government's burden to prove whether or not someone was mentally, capable of understanding the crime when they committed it. And so a hearing was held. there were 12 jurors at that hearing. the choices were that, Lindsay Clancy had committed the murders and knew what she was doing, even though she may have been depressed or had some social or mental problems. the defense was alleging that she was completely incapable of, not of understanding what she had done because she was hearing voices and the voices told her to commit these murders. there. The jury could not reach a decision after 38 hours of deliberation. and really this is where the trouble, I would call it starts, is the jury is dismissed, it's declared a mistrial. In other words, nothing is settled. We don't know what will happen to Ms. Clancy, whether she will be retried, or whether they will plead guilty to some kind of lesser charge. It's up in the air. But what happened is after the jury was dismissed, some of the jurors, started, Notes had been sent out during the trial that 11 of the jurors had agreed that Ms. Clancy was not guilty by reason of insanity. But there was one holdout juror, and the note was complained to the judge that this holdout juror was not applying the law, was not applying the standard of reasonable doubt.
Defense Attorney's Actions and Jurors' Post-Trial Statements in the Clancy Case
And the defense attorney, man, by the name of Reddington, really went at the judge saying that this juror should be dismissed and that, his client should be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Well, that's a very unusual remedy, I can tell you, from the criminal system. Once you impanel a jury, you do everything you can to keep the jury together and have them come to a unanimous decision. Well, after the judge decided we're going to make a mistrial of this, jurors started making, public appearances. In fact, this woman named Paula Devlin went, on the Gayle King Show. I mean, she goes on a national show and basically lays out the, holdout juror, does everything but. But give you his name, gives you his race, his sex. and there was only one person fitting that description on the jury. So now we have this maelstrom of. Of, what looks like these jurors became activists while they were on the jury. in other words, they weren't deciding this case on its merits. They were deciding this case on. They felt sorry for Ms. Clancy and felt she had not been given proper psychological, treatment before the murders. And that they. And that this,
Assessing Clancy's Actions: Husband's Errand, Exercise Bands, and Apparent Suicide Attempt
That the medical, treatment or lack thereof was the reason that she committed these murders.
Sandy Rios: Okay, so here we are with a hung jury, and, it's up in the air about whether she will be tried again. But, Bruce, let's go back, as an attorney. Well, here. Here's the thing. You mentioned this. She asked her husband to go on an errand, and she had the exercise bands already on the door. You know, the door handles. he actually called her, I think, while he was out, and I think she encouraged him to delay. And so she did all of this. And I heard. I saw two of the policemen that came to the address, right after it had happened. And the first one, upon Lindsay Clancy, said. They both said that she had red marks on her neck and on her wrists, but there was no blood. And so, it looked like she tried to commit suicide. But one wonders how seriously she tried to commit suicide. I think that's what would go through my mind.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Yeah, I don't. I don't know. and really, while that is relevant.
Criminal Intent vs. Mental Incapacity and the Nuances of Postpartum Depression Claims
It's really not the deciding factor as to whether or not she was mentally capable of, forming what we call mens rea, which means intent, the criminal intent to kill these children. lots of people, ah, are suicidal. It doesn't mean that they cannot control or do not know what they're doing. most people that commit suicide understand what they're looking at doing. because in a criminal case, it's a very high burden if you try to put forth an insanity defense. Because everyone would put that forth if it wasn't so difficult. You know, anyone that's a criminal would say, well, I'm just insane. That's the reason I commit my crimes. And we can't allow that in this society. We have to have objective standards. And one of the things that was being claimed by the defense in this case is, postpartum depression. and, you know, look, I've not been a mother. I have not gone through anything like that. but I, you know, I understand that there are things called the baby blues. most women go through. it's some. Some kind of depression. Not all, but many. but many of us are depressed. But it doesn't mean that we're allowed to strangle three young children.
Premeditation in the Clancy Case and the Suspicious Claim of Hearing Voices Once
It doesn't relieve us of our responsibility. And when you have this kind of a case, what you have to look at as an investigator is what Sandy was just alluding to, the circumstances around which it was done. And in this case, the defendant, Ms. Clancy, sent her husband on an errand. So in other words, he would be out of the house. She had already arranged for these exercise bands to be available to strangle the children. these are things that show premeditation.
Sandy Rios: Absolutely. Doesn't sound like, you know, just, she's out of control. If you're out of control, you do it in the moment. I would think, not like you think through everything.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): She also claimed that she heard voices. However, she claimed that she only heard the voice on one occasion, and that was telling her at the time of the murder, telling her to murder her children. If you look, at psychiatric care, usually if people hear voices, they don't just hear them once. They hear them on multiple occasions.
Sandy Rios: Yes, yes. I mean, I felt that really stood out to me too, Bruce, about the voice. She heard a voice one time in her life. Her psychologists, the people that were working with her, all knew that. I mean, she'd never talked about voices before. And suddenly she claims that before doing this, she heard a commanding Male voice, you know, sort of commanding her to do this.
Jury Demographics and Concerns About Feminist Ideology Influencing Verdicts
And so that's suspicious to me, too. That just sounds like planning and plotting. I'm sorry. So, then we go to the jurors. Bruce. And I've watched several of their comments. The foreman is a special ed teacher. and I saw three of them together, and they just strike me as feminists. They just do. And I think they were pretty sure about what they wanted to do before they went into that jury. Jonathan Turley was on Fox yesterday, and he basically said that, too. He said, we, we lost that case, or that case was lost in jury selection because, these women were. Had a propensity. They had a propensity to sympathize with the murderer, because of their feminist past. And I'm going to go into feminism a little bit later. But, also just being a teacher. Teachers are so liberal now. And this is Massachusetts, you know.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, you know, having gone back to 1982, my experience in the criminal justice system as a prosecutor, I witnessed it even back then. That's, you know, 40 years ago, what we would call jury nullification.
The Voir Dire Process and the Oath Jurors Take to Uphold Facts and Law
When a panel of jurors is selected, they go through what is called voir dire. In other words, a panel of jurors is brought in. Both the defense and the prosecutors are allowed to question them about certain things. And usually both sides have some background information on each juror before they get there. there's a system of challenges. Depending on the severity of the crime, each side is allowed to dismiss a certain number of jurors, what we call without cause. In other words, I just don't think this person is right for the jury. I think they have a bias. So I'm going to dismiss them. Okay, so you go through that process, and eventually you settle on 12 people that will be the actual jurors. And then usually there's at least two alternates. In this case, I think there were six alternates. And here's the rub, though, is after the jury is selected, they are given an oath, and the jury is sworn. It's just like a witness is sworn in, the jury is sworn in. And what do they swear to? They swear to follow the facts in the case. only the facts in that particular case. Not any biases that they bring in, not any past experiences. You can use your past experience to make a judgment, but you can't bring a bias in that. Like, in this case, what we're seeing is it looks like these women on this jury came in Almost like activists for, this condition, this postpartum. And you know, they've talked in the interviews since they were given the mistrial, that they feel like they were turning the page, they were bringing a new beginning for women. and that this, you know, basically they were activists and pioneers for the wrongs that have been done to women over the years. You know, there is a time and a place for something like that. If you feel that way, you can go through other avenues, but you do not use the jury system to do that. how can this person get a fair trial or the government get a fair trial if everyone is going into the jury box as an activist, right,
Jury Activism and Examples of Jury Nullification in Criminal Cases
Sandy Rios: with a political thing in mind or an outcome in mind that's different than the trial itself?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): And I can tell you I have very strong feelings about the jury system. I don't like it. I've seen it on too many occasions where I'll tell you what would. I'll tell you what happened in one of my trials. We had a dead bang winner. Armed robbery of a gas station. Threatened to shoot the, clerk. Gun shoved in his face. absolute trauma. But the witness was great, identified the two men that did it. They were apprehended shortly thereafter with proceeds of the robbery. On and on and on. The case was rock solid. And when the jury went to deliberate, two of the jurors locked themselves in the bathroom because they were holding out that these guys were innocent. And I won't get into the racial complications of it, but basically they were saying, you know, I look at these two men and they could be my sons and I'm not going to find them guilty of this crime.
Sandy Rios: So that's the same kind of thing.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Yes, it's totally the same thing. It's the same thing. It's activism.
The Overwhelming Evidence Case and the Dangers of Sympathy in Jury Deliberations
It's, you know, my mother was foreman of a, of a murder case and she said it was absolute dead bang winner. My mother had a lot of compassion, but she said this thing was so clear, it was unbelievable. And they had one holdout juror, and every time they asked her, you know, why she was holding out, she couldn't give him a reason other than just, I just don't think he did it. And like I say, the evidence was overwhelming. She finally came, around and they had a unanimous verdict. But it's, you know, we can't have that in society. If we're going to let, everyone loose just because we feel sorry for them, well, then we're going to have a lot of murderers running around the streets.
Sandy Rios: Well, case in point. you know what? I'm going to play that clip from Paula Devon one more time, and then I want to talk about as a result of.
Revisiting Juror Paula Devlin's Statements on the Clancy Trial's Turning Point
Just give an example. And this, the Chicago incident I'm going to ask for. So this is clip 8. Let's listen to it again. This is, one of the jurors, and she's probably the one that's been on television the most. This is clip eight.
Speaker C: Again, new details, meanwhile, about the jurors in the Lindsay Clancy murder trial as we learn what was going through their minds as they sat down to deliberate the verdict.
Paula Devlin: Even though we didn't know what was going on outside of our little bubble that we were in, we knew that this was a turning point and this would be something that could change, something to make it better for other women in the future, for other families, you know, justice for those children. Is this never happening again?
Sandy Rios: Yeah.
The Absurdity of Finding a Mother Not Guilty to Help Other Children
So this never. Justice would be for those kids, that this would never happen again. So we're going to find her not guilty because, you know, all women suffer when they have children, and we're going to make sure this never happens again. So, Bruce, what happened?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, when you have people that think like that, I mean, that is completely ridiculous. like, by finding the mother not guilty, we're going to help other children. in fact, you could do just the opposite. And I think that's what happened. on the same day that the Clancy jury was deliberating in Chicago, in Frankfort, Illinois, there was a copycat murder. And this is what you always have to be wary of, is that people, if they see someone get away with something, they often do copycat crimes just like that.
Copycat Murder in Frankfort, Illinois, Linked to the Lindsay Clancy Trial
And what happened here is we had a mom, Corrie Walsh, 40 years old, with four children. She killed her two year old after spending hours online in these chat rooms that were dedicated to the Lindsay Clancy trial. And, what she claimed is that she heard a, voice of the devil calling Barrett the antichrist and the devil, and that she needed to kill him. So what did she do? She took her young child, two, year old, I believe, and hung him from the rafters in the basement. Ah.
Sandy Rios: And she was a devotee to everything that was happening in the Lindsey Clancy trial.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): And you talk about trauma. She has other children. They came home from school and they found their sibling hanging in the basement.
The Horrific Scene at the Walsh Home and Chat Room Discussions on the Clancy Trial
They got a neighbor to come over. The neighbor found the child, tried to give it CPR, was unsuccessful, went upstairs. The mother, Corrie Walsh, was in the bathtub with some Self inflicted wounds.
Sandy Rios: Oh my gosh, this is a copycat for sure.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Yeah. And they have an 8 month old child was left unsupervised while all this was going on. and again this occurred while the Clancy jury was deliberating. And after all kinds of research done by this mother, Corrie Walsh, about what was going on in the Clancy, trial, she was in a chat that believed that Lindsay Clancy had not been the one that killed her children. She believed that the husband had killed. Kill the children.
Precedent Set: The Dangers of Justifying Child Murder Due to Depression and Social Media Influence
so anyway, that's the problem is now you have a precedent possibly set that you know, it's okay to kill your children if you're depressed after you have a baby or if you're depressed for other reasons.
Sandy Rios: Yeah. Well, Bruce, you know, right when the, when the trial started on TikTok and other social media platforms, women were weighing in, about how miserable they were and how they all, they agree. I think some even said they wish they could kill their babies. And it was like a plethora, wasn't like one or two. the TikTok, was filled with women who were unhappy and didn't want to have their children anymore. So I look for more of this to happen, I think, and that's the danger of it. But back to this particular trial. There were nine women and three men. There was one black juror and initially, as I recall, three, three juror jurors thought she was guilty, that she had killed her children and willfully, you know, knew what she was doing.
Jury Dynamics: Persuasion Tactics and the System's Perceived Failure in the Clancy Case
And these women that we've just described and played, we played the voice of one of them. We have some other clips, but I don't know that we'll get to them. they talked very freely about how they persuaded and how they. And then one of them said everybody knows she killed them. That's what she says. But the issue is that she, you know, she had all of these drugs and you know, and she people the, the system is responsible because they failed her. That's what they said. And so outside the courtroom there were women, throngs of women every day dressed in pink, waving signs for Lindsay Clancy. That's how sick this thing became. But Bruce, we should talk about.
Gayle King's Reaction to the Holdout Juror's Race and Accusations of Racism
They pressured two of the three that thought Lindsay Clancy was guilty, but they could not pressure this one juror. And I wish we had this clip, but Gayle King, was interviewing, Paula Devlin on her show and she pressed her a little bit about this juror and finally she said was Gayle King said, hey, he was black. And Paula Devin said yes, and Gayle King just was back at her chair and she said, I've got to think about this. Because she never thought, how could it possibly a black man not, believe that this woman was guilty and hold out like that? I don't know why she thought that, Bruce.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): I don't know. She said, I have to sit with this for a moment.
Sandy Rios: I have to sit with this for a moment.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): I mean, to me, that was so racist. It was unbelievable, you know, that she thinks just because a gentleman is black, I have no idea why she thinks that equates to he will find this person not guilty.
Doxing Jurors: A Threat to the Judicial System and Civic Duty
I have no idea why she thinks that way, but she does. And I'm telling you, Sandy, this could unlock Pandora's box. we've seen this in all kinds of venues, doxing of people identifying people. If you start to dox jurors, in other words, give their identity m. You know, it's hard enough to get people to serve on a jury as it is. I can tell you that people will try anything to get off a jury. and you hope that there's enough, what I would call civic minded people that will actually serve on these juries. But now if you put the fear of, you know, if I rule the way, people don't want me to, my life is going to be destroyed. Because I'll guarantee you this juror is going to have hell to pay.
Sandy Rios: You know, Bruce, let me say in one of the interviews with the women, the jurors, they described this man as, ah, very well dressed. He's in his 30s, I believe, very well dressed.
Defense Attorney Kevin Reddington's Attacks on the Holdout Juror
They thought maybe he was a professor at a university. That's how, I guess sophisticated his affect was. And so, But I'm going to read to you, you have alluded to this, and I want to know your response to this. The defense attorney, Kevan Reddington, came after that holdout jury juror. And I want to read you a couple of things he did. This is from Jonathan Turley. Reddington went outside the courthouse and attacked the holdout juror. He said it was a repugnant and unprofessional venting by counsel who should be reaffirming the right of every juror to stand with their conviction against not just the other jurors, but the world. Now, previously, Reddington had lit up the courtroom, which was being aired nationally with his attacks on the juror. Reddington only knew that the other jurors were unhappy with the juror and said that he refused to follow the law. He slammed into the juror, who was already identified as just one of three males. he said that he shredded the juror as presumptively anti disability and akin to a racist on the jury. I hope that guy can sleep well at night, he said. And then he came back. He said what he did was the juror is unethical and contemptible.
Attorney's Ethical Obligations and the Need for Juror Sequestration
And he suggested Redington. This is the last thing Bruce suggests, that no reasonable juror could have reached such a view, despite many in this country who saw his client as a troubled murderer, but a murderer nonetheless. Okay, so what's the deal with that? What are the rules, that apply to attorneys, Attorneys in a case like that?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, first of all, he should be brought before the bar committee, because when you are an attorney and you're sworn into the bar of a state, you are considered what they call an officer of the court. In other words, you are there as a defense attorney to give a vigorous defense of your, of your client. But you are not there to blow up the system. You are when you agree to join the bar, when you swear in, you will follow certain rules, and those rules are, however, the jury rules. That's what you have to live with. Now, you can, again, you can give a vigorous defense, but this was an attack.
The Influence of Outside Information on Jurors and the Problem of 'Outside Noise'
This was an absolute out of court, attempt to influence the outcome of this case. And, you know, the problem with a jury is if they are there deliberating for more than a day, usually they're allowed to go home. Sometimes they're sequestered. And I always thought that all juries should be sequestered. In other words, they're put into a hotel. They're not given access to their phones, they're not given access to tv, they're not given access to outside news. And they're only there to decide this case based on what they've heard, not on news reports. And that, because what happens is when jurors are allowed to go home, if they haven't reached a verdict by the end of the night, they go home, they talk to their families, they get text messages, they see television reports, radio reports, now the Internet. I never had to deal with this. But now the Internet is full of people like these chat rooms.
Interviews with Jurors: Focusing on the Holdout Juror and the 'Doxed' Juror
And now how are you going to know how to rule? Because all this information is coming at you. And it's not the facts that were presented in the case. It's all this outside noise. And I'll tell you, I don't think these interviews should be allowed after the case is over, I don't know how you stop them. A person is free to do what they want when they cut loose from the jury. But I just think this is despicable. And the way they're going about this, they're not. see, if these women were just on a crusade to make the system better, why would they spend so much time talking about the holdout juror? That would be irrelevant. If they want to say, look, we listened to how this woman was treated, and we think it's wrong, that's one thing. But to put the blame on this juror, that doesn't help anything.
Sandy Rios: Yeah, they villain. He's been doxed. And one one channel in Boston, Bruce showed his picture.
Jurors' Statements on the Holdout Juror and the Sympathetic Reaction to Lindsay Clancy
I've seen it. so, no, it's just a terrible thing. It really is. And it just really is a perversion of our judicial system. Now, one thing that they said, these women jurors, they talked about him being the holdout, and they said, he just kept saying, basically, I'm. I am blending two or three different statements. First of all, everyone knows that she killed her children. Everyone knows that. That's what a juror said. But then another one said, but he just kept holding on to the fact that he couldn't get over that this woman had murdered her children. He would not get off of that. And, then they thought it was such an injustice to Lindsey, so they started this whole sympathetic thing to Lindsey, which is having great effect. But this juror now has been doxxed. And, I don't know, Bruce. He's probably in danger.
Governor DeSantis Offers Sanctuary to Juror; Blaming Jurors Hinders Systemic Improvement
I don't know.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, Ron DeSantis here in Florida, the governor has offered him sanctuary here. That's how serious he thinks the situation involving this juror is. and again, I'm telling you, if these women want to go on a crusade to make the system better,
Sandy Rios: blaming,
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): this juror is not the way to do it. This juror listened to the evidence, and he made his decision. He has nothing to do with how Lindsey, Clancy was treated medically, how she was treated by the police. Nothing. It has nothing to do with that, Bruce.
Sandy Rios: The way they characterize how they feel. We're for Lindsay. We're for Lindsay. Which is not. That's a stupid thing to say.
The Difference Between Supporting a Person and Supporting Innocence or Guilt
I mean, you could really like a, ah, person that you are considering their crime. but it doesn't. You're not for that person. You're for their innocence or their guilt.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): You know what happens in these cases. Think of the O.J. case, he basically cuts the head off of two people, Ron Goldman and his wife. And I was living in Los Angeles when that case was going on. And I worked with all kinds of people who went to the University of southern California where O.J. simpson played football.
The O.J. Simpson Case and the Dangers of Fascination Derailing Justice
And it was amazing to me how they let their fascination with OJ the football player completely derail the fact that, yeah, that's all great, he was a great football player, but he cut the heads off two people. And doesn't that M matter more than, gee, we think OJ's a great guy. I'm for OJ, I'm for OJ, I'M for OJ. I mean, this is the same situation. this mother strangled three children, I think in cold blood. She has problems. look, this is a terrible situation. She was medically treated with all kinds of drugs, tried different therapies. But that does not excuse you cold bloodedly putting ligatures, putting those exercise bands around your children's throats and killing them. Think about that.
The Unexcusable Nature of Clancy's Murders Despite Her Personal Struggles
And these women think, oh, well, you know, it's not her fault.
Sandy Rios: Well, Bruce, let's talk about, I want to talk now. This is something about which I know a lot about. I'm a woman, first of all. And, I've watched these things develop through the decades, really.
The Evolution of Feminism: From Reaction to Victimhood and Perversion
And the first one that came along was, well, feminism really was first started. Gloria Steinem just died. But this whole, victim thing, that women are victims now, I know that back in the, Even in the 50s, women were still, in many cases not treated well, but not in all cases, but certainly in the workplace. And I could tell you stories, and there are reasons why there was frustration about their ability to work and do jobs that men did and all of that. I understand that when my sister, who's, older than I was growing up, women could be nurses, teachers and what. There was one other thing, secretaries. And that was it. Really and truly, that was it. And I remember my sister was a secretary, three major corporations, the executive secretary to the chairman. And she told me lots of stories about how they were treated. And so I, know that that was a problem. And so this was a reaction. Feminist feminism was a reaction to that. But it became a, ah, hobby horse. And it really became perverted.
Generations of Feminism: Teaching Daughters Independence Over Domestic Responsibilities
Rather than just speaking the truth with shades of gray or shades of whatever, women, all women now are victims. And now we've had several generations of women who feel that they, they don't want to cook, because they're not, they're not housemaids they don't really want to clean. They. And I think this bleeds over into taking care of children because trust me, it's a lot of work. I guess your mom's noticed that. But we deserve better because we're women and we're smarter than men and we are more capable. We could do everything they can do. This is the kind of thing that has been taught to our daughters and handed down since the 60s. And I've seen the fruits of that. I'm sure you have too. And then out of that came abortion. And because 1973, that's when Roe versus Wade was passed. And the Supreme Court legalized abortion at that time for all nine months. And so where did that come. The country was not pro life, and it was a shock, the court to the top down, thing for this country.
Roe v. Wade and the Hardening of Hearts Through Abortion
It was a horrible thing that they did. But abortion over the years has hardened. You've heard me talk about this before. Has hardened the hearts of women. I've seen it, in my generation, and I see it in younger women. I saw that in the faces of the girls standing behind the, the, governor of Massachusetts that she signs this horrific abortion for all nine months bill. And they're all young women and they're just smiling. they think this is great. I see, you know, the manifestation of the, the, abortion pill, the abortion RU486 is what we used to call it, that, kills the baby and then expels it. And it is now 80% of abortions in this country. So girls at home are taking the lives of their own baby. They are giving birth at home. You understand that, there's nothing magic about that baby moving through the canal. It's giving birth and they're happily doing that at home. I know some have regrets.
The Psychological Impact of Abortion and the Nature of Women's 'Rights'
I can't even imagine the psychological effect of that on women in the future. Maybe. We're already seeing that. And so it's so against nature. God created women to love their babies so much that they would give their own lives. There's lots of stories in history about women sacrificing themselves to save their babies, but no more women. Women deserve, you know, they deserve this, they deserve that. They deserve everything because they're women and they're smarter and they're bigger and they're greater. Not bigger, but they're greater. And so they, they've just been, angry.
Marxist Oppressor/Oppressed Ideology and its Effect on Women's Hearts
They've been the oppressed class. And this is really our, Marxism. It's the, the oppressor and the oppressed and so Gloria Steinem and the feminists took that on. Women are the oppressed, and women are men, are the oppressors. And so it has hardened the heart of women, on abortion, because they've done something that is so unnatural, it is against nature, and it is against nature of God.
Confessing Abortion: The Path to Forgiveness and a Clear Conscience
And the only way they can excuse it is to get hard about it. Because I know many, if they're. If they ever come to grips with what they actually did, they can't bear it. And I always say to those of you listening who had an abortion, the best, most healthy thing that will help you. Many of you are depressed. Maybe you've never been able to have children since that time. and the best way to handle this is really confess it to the Lord. Just confess it. Confess what you've done. Don't say, I made a mistake.
The Culture of 'My Way' and the Fear of More Tragic Incidents
I. I killed my child, is the more appropriate thing to say to God, because he knows and beg and ask for forgiveness, and he will forgive you. You'll feel so much of that weight lifted off of you. But obviously, we're living in a culture that, you know, is intent on doing it my way. I'll have it my way. I deserve this.
The Consequences of Societal Sympathy Over Accountability for Crimes
I deserve that. And that's how I think this happened. And I'm afraid for our future. I look for us to have more of these, incidents like we just had in Chicago. Copycat incidences of women killing their children. I dread it. But I'm afraid that's the can of worms we just opened up. Anything else you want to say, honey, before we say goodbye here?
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Well, I may sound a bit hard in the way I talk today, and that's always a problem. when you act as a law enforcement person is you're trying to balance empathy for people with the fact that they've committed a crime.
Justice, Accountability, and the Role of Government in Maintaining Order
I don't wish any bad on Lindsey Clancy. I. I'm not out to, you know, fry her or anything, but we can't have a society where because you feel sorry for someone, they're forgiven for their crimes. you can have empathy, you can have sympathy, but there must be accountability. And sometimes when you're the one that has to seek accountability, you. You come off as the bad guy.
Sandy Rios: That's true.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): And you just have to accept that if you're going to do that kind of job.
Sandy Rios: Well, you know what? I'll close by saying, I start the show every day, and you hear me talking about justice, real justice, God's justice. God's justice is what's right.
The Dangers of Present-Day Evil and Its Predicted Unfolding
And what's wrong. And, just as God has to be severe sometimes on us and on countries and nations, and he expects us to be severe as a. Not personally. We're not allowed to kill people or punish them personally for, crimes they've committed. But as corporately as Romans 13 talks about very clearly, we have to bring justice. That's the only thing that brings order and prevents what they've done with Lindsay. I'm. I'm telling you, this is giving permission to all of these women to do the same. And I'm. I just fear that's what we're looking at.
Repentance and the Path to a Clear Conscience for Those Who Had Abortions
But, we realize that evil is getting more powerful, and we're watching it happen. And so, God told us it was going to be that. And if one positive thing about this horrible thing is that we're seeing things unfold as he predicted. So, I just really do. My heart goes out to any of you who've had an abortion. I've never felt superior about the fact that I have not. But for God's grace. I was a Christian early, and I knew God and knew his ways, and I was protected by that. It wasn't because I was a superior person. I don't know where you were in your life when you had an abortion, but you need to repent.
Teaching Children About Life's Preciousness and Rejecting Demands for Rights
I beg you to repent. Certainly I've committed other sins, and I've had to repent for all of them. All of them, in order to be right with God and have a clear conscience and really then be able to speak to children, your children, as you're raising them, about. You speak from experience about what you've done and the bad choices you've made. And so, I'm not saying you should tell your children every mistake you've made. I'm not suggesting that. But by that experience and by having a clear conscience, you can speak with conviction to your children and train them differently, teaching them the preciousness of life. And the fact that, we don't deserve anything. Women or men cannot demand their rights. And, so because we don't have rights, God is the one who judges, us and not.
The Possibility of a Retrial for Lindsay Clancy and Jury Conviction Challenges
Not men to women and men and women to men. there's no difference in Christ. There is neither bond nor free, male nor female. So there's an equality that we can't forget. Well, I think we've said enough on this. Lindsey Clancy may have a retrial. We'll see if that happens. I heard, Jonathan Turley say he doesn't think that she'll get a she. They won't be able to find a jury in Massachusetts that will convict her. He might be right, but we'll see what happens.
Supporting Preborn Ministry: Saving Lives Through Ultrasounds and Generous Donations
Well, I want to thank you for listening today, and I want to remind you that preborn, the one that is the business of saving lives, is our sponsor. And if you'd like to provide for one ultrasound or two or three or four, it's $28 for each one provided to a mom who's in a pregnancy that she's not sure about, just go to preborn.com sandy, that's preborn.com/sandy, and make your most generous donation. And, honey, thank you for joining me.
Bruce (Sandy Rios' husband): Thank you for having me.
Sandy Rios: Thank you, honey.
Thank you for listening to today's edition of Sandy Rios, 24 7
All right. Thank you for listening. Oh, yeah. And thank you for listening to today's edition of Sandy Rios, 24 7. Sam m.
In this gripping episode, we delve into the controversial Lindsay Clancy murder trial, where a juror's shocking belief in her guilt raises questions about justice and mental health. Join Sandy Rios and former FBI agent Bruce as they discuss the implications of the jury's decision and the societal issues surrounding the case. With insights into the intersection of law, mental health, and feminism, this episode offers a thought-provoking exploration of a case that has captured national attention.
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