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: and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families.
We live in a culture that prioritizes comfort over everything
And today we have a message that's a little bit hard. It. It's a little bit murky, it's a little bit difficult. I am not going to sell you a quick fix or an easy answer or a life hack that's going to fix everything. We're going to sit in the messiness of life for a little bit today. And I have some food for thought for you because really, I've been thinking a lot lately about how we live in a culture that prioritizes comfort over everything. Comfort is our highest good. Anything that makes us uncomfortable, you can ghost, you can block, you can walk away, or you can buy that miracle product. Maybe it's the right medication, the right supplement, the right treatment, the right habits, maybe even just the right mindset that just can solve nearly any problem. We are all powerful humans, and while we do have a lot of modern conveniences, we do have miracles in modern medicine. And those things can be an incredible gift from God.
There are still millions of people who wake up every morning carrying some sort of pain
There are still millions of people who wake up every morning carrying some sort of pain that doesn't seem like it's going away. Now, specifically, sometimes people experience chronic illness that comes with chronic pain. And this can be a lonely form of suffering because unlike, a broken bone or surgery or something that has a predictable mechanism, people know what happened. They know the route of recovery. Chronic pain doesn't come with an expiration date. Maybe this is mental health pain. Maybe this is physical health pain. And maybe it's the kind of pain that's just quietly there all the time, reshaping things in the background. Your relationships, your work, your ministry, your parenting, your conversations with God, even your faith. And many faithful Christians wrestle with very difficult questions, as I said. And the messiness here. Why hasn't God healed me? Does he still hear my prayers. How do I trust a God who says he's good when my circumstances seem anything but good? The beautiful news of scripture, friends, is that God never asks us to pretend that suffering isn't real. And throughout the Psalms especially, we meet saints who cry out honestly before the Lord. They have questions, they have grief, they have really gut wrenching fear and even confusion. And remarkably, God preserved those prayers for us in His Word, not as examples of weeping, weak faith, but of enduring faith. And today we're joined again by Glenna Marshall. She's the author of Praying in pain, how to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. And she has lived herself with chronic pain for more than a decade. And she's discovered that while suffering may leave us speechless, Scripture does give us words to pray. God gives us words. And drawing deeply from the Psalms, she offers biblical hope for anyone who's walking through a season of prolonged and reminds us that God's silence is not the same as God's absence. Glenna, so glad to have you back here. Thank you so much for joining us for really to tackle a very tough topic. We are not going to solve world peace in the next 47 minutes, but I know that we're going to have a conversation that will point people towards hope and help and healing. Thanks so much for being able, being willing to step in the messy middle.
Glenna Marshall: oh, well, I'm so glad to be back, so thanks for having me.
Glenna started dealing with chronic pain about 16 years ago
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Glenna, we talked with you before, but we didn't talk about your journey with chronic pain. And really, this is a struggle that I see a lot. Of course, I'm a nurse practitioner. I see this in healthcare. and we see physical pain, but we also see emotional pain, mental pain, spiritual exhaustion, and that can be a hard place to be. But we find some remarkable honesty in the Bible, and we also find some remarkable honesty in your book, sharing your own journey. What would you like to share with us today about your own personal experience that led you to write this book and to share the message that God laid on your heart?
Glenna Marshall: I started dealing with chronic pain about 16 years ago. So I was 29 years old, so you can do the math. I just turned 45. So we're inching closer to two decades of living with chronic pain. And like a lot of women in their 20s and 30s, I developed an autoimmune disease. And, you know, I have a genetic predefined predisposition to it. I didn't know that at the time, but I Started experiencing what seemed like a lot of disparate symptoms. So chronic back pain waking me up in the night, and then skin rashes and then digestive issues and headaches and brain fog and just things I could sort of chalk up to other reasons, you know, stress or the wrong running shoes or needing a new mattress. You know, different things that didn't seem like any of these things were connected, but as time passed that they got worse and worse until my pain ramped up to levels. I mean, honestly, I would probably average about 3 hours of sleep a night. And that went on for a very long time. I chased a diagnosis for about six years, and it wasn't until I began having trouble with my vision that I ended up in, my eye doctor's office trying to figure out why the whole world looked like I was looking through fog and my eyes actually were in pain. Like eye pain was really strange and kind of a chronic headache behind my eyes. And my eye doctor looked at me and said, said, I only see this in systemic diseases. And so I think I know what's wrong with you, because he asked me a bunch of questions about my health and I was like, well, I just have this chronic spine pain that no one can figure out because I look very healthy on paper. And so he sent me to my GP for a genetic test, actually. And my gp, who I will tell you, I know for a fact Dr. Welton is a, listener of your show. So he will shout him out, no pressure. That's right, because he, he took that very seriously and sent a genetic test off to Mayo Clinic for me. And I'll never forget the notes that he left in my chart which said, you know, we're testing her for a disease called ankylosing spondylitis, and I really hope that's not what it is. And, unfortunately, yeah, because he knew, he knew that was a really painful disease. And unfortunately my test came back positive. And in the years since, my siblings also have the same genetic issue and different expressions of the disease and not very severe. But I have seem to have lived in a pretty chronic flare up for the last 16 years. Took me a long time to find a treatment that helped. And even so, I have breakthrough pain and flare ups from time to time. And I decided I needed a resource that I could give to people because people would ask me, how do you do it? How do you just live with pain all the time? And honestly, it's just day by day and it's a lot of prayer and I needed a resource 16 years ago when this started, and as many writers do, and I know you probably have done as well. You write the resource that you need, that you want to be able to give to other people. And so that led to this book
Dr. Jessica Peck: that Is the Way God Works. And, Glenna, I'm really blown away by your transparency. And just actually this week, I saw in the news you may have seen this story, too, about a meteorologist named Janice Dean, who has stepping away from her, national platform because she has a diagnosis of Ms. She has shared publicly. And it seems like that message just resonated with so many people, because there are a lot of people who suffer in silence. I definitely see this in healthcare myself, as I said, you know, in the intro. And sometimes it can be really hard when things look fine on the outside, like, you don't see any obvious physical manifestation, no obvious disfigurement or something that, you know, other people's brains could wrap their minds around. And I have. I've seen, Glenna, that a lot of people suffer in silence with this. They don't want to talk about it because they maybe don't know how to talk about it. They're afraid they'll be judged or thought they're crazy. Honestly, in some way. Why do you think it is so often that this kind of suffering just leaves us speechless before other people and even before God. Like, you just don't even know that. How that pain can impact your speech and your prayer life. What have you experienced?
Glenna Marshall: You know, I think that specifically for people who have diseases like I do, which they're classified as invisible illnesses. So, like you were saying, you can't see a, manifestation. If you met me, you thought, I'm perfectly healthy person, and yet my body, I just has so many issues. Well, I don't want to walk around and complain all the time to everybody. You know, you don't want to be that person. And yet if you've got pain running through your body, kind of like a news ticker tape just kind of rolling in the background at all times, it's in your thoughts all the time. And so you don't want to be the person who complains all the time, and yet you can't ignore it. And there's something really isolating about experiencing pain that no one else can see or that they might look at you and say, well, she looks perfectly fine to me. I don't know what she. What she's talking about. It just. You feel alone in it. And so I think trying to put words to it without being someone who's just complaining all the time or grumbling. We know we're not supposed to grumble and complain. but then what do you do? Because this is your lived reality. And so it's disheartening every day to come to the Lord and say, I am in pain. Help me get through this day. And yet I do think that is what we're supposed to do, because the encouraging thing is, no one else may see, no one else knows what it's like to live in your body, but the Lord does. He is intimately acquainted with all your ways. And so I think we should take our, complaints to the Lord. And I don't mean, like, complaining about him, but complaining to him, kind of like the psalmists do, and the many lament psalms where I don't know what to say except, lord, help me, but I think that's what we're supposed to do. I think Scripture's laid out that path and sort of a. A path of lament for us to follow when we don't know what to pray.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm reading through the Psalms this summer
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, let's talk a little bit about that path. I'm actually reading through the Psalms this summer. I'm calling it A Summer in the Psalter. That's what a pastor had, a series not too long ago, and it just had a nice ring to it. But honestly, when you read some of the Psalms, Glenna, I mean, you're talking about. And I've read the Psalms my whole life, but this time I'm doing a really different kind of deep dive into them. And you're talking about some really raw emotions that God did preserve in Scripture for us to read. What do you see? Why do you think that the Psalms are this powerful guide, this powerful roadmap for those who especially are suffering and perhaps m. Even unjustly? I'm sure you felt that way, Glenna. I mean, if. If your physician is writing that, I hope this is not what it is, and then you have this.
Glenna Marshall: This.
Dr. Jessica Peck: This diagnosis. Like, you. You don't want that. Where do we see the path in the Psalms go from despair to hope.
Glenna Marshall: Yeah. So what I love about the Psalms, the lament Psalms, and really, I think it's. The percentage is something like almost 50% of the Psalms are lament psalms. And that should tell us something. First of all, that when you are in despair or in pain or discouragement, you go to the Lord, because that's what the psalmist did. And the Lord brought those psalms into part of his inspired word for us. So I think what it does is it gives room for us to mourn our situation before the Lord very honestly. And, you know, you're right. Like, think of Psalm 13, for example. How long, O Lord, will you forget me forever? I mean, those. Those are dark words, you know, but in despair, it can feel like that. What I love about most of the Laments Psalms, though, is that they give room for that complaint, what we would call a biblical complaint, where you are mourning your situation to the Lord and talking to him about it. Then they give you, like, they make you take a turn. Almost all of the Lament psalms do this. They take a turn and then they move to kind of crying out for help and asking the Lord to intervene. So that might be, help me, help me endure. Heal me, you know, do something, Lord. And. And for some of the psalmists who were in situations where they were being attacked by enemies, it was just defeat my enemies for me. And then they almost always take another turn where they pause and they remember the past faithfulness of the Lord. And I love this because so often you'll be reading this Psalms and these types of psalms, and you're thinking, okay, why are we talking about Egypt and passing through the Red Sea? Like, what is the point? But this is Israel's big story of redemption. It's like their Christmas, so to speak. It is the big story that they were supposed to tell to themselves and to their children, the next generations, over and over again to remind them of what God had done for them and rescuing them from slavery in Egypt. And so when you get to this turn in the Lament psalms, you often hear that story retold in some kind of poetic way, remember what the Lord has done for us. And I think the point of that is to help you take the final turn in the Lament Psalm, which is to say, okay, I have looked back and remembered the deeds of the Lord and how he has carried us. Therefore, I believe he will carry me through this current trial. And so that's where you sort of resolve to trust in his future faithfulness. And that's not because you have deep, stalwart faith, necessarily. Your faith can feel so weak when you're suffering, but because you have sort of laid that faith on top of the profoundly faithful acts of God, and you have remembered how he has worked. And so that's what you're anchoring your faith to. Not that you can. Yeah. Not that you can get through it, but because God has brought you through.
Dr. Jessica Peck: God has brought us through it. When we come back Glenna, I'm gonna talk about this some more, because we look at this, I want to talk about something called self efficacy and compare that to what God offers us. I'm sure you already feel encouraged. Much more. Help and hope, right? On the other side of this break, with Glenna Marshall praying in pain. See you on the other side.
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Healing Rain by Michael W. Smith: healing rain is coming down it's coming closer to the lost and found Tears of joy and tears of shame A wash forever in Jesus name Healing rain it comes with fire so let it fall and take us high your healing rain not afraid m to be washed
Dr. Jessica Peck: in Heaven's rain welcome back, friends. That is Healing Rain by Michael W. Smith. That's what we're talking about today. There are so many people who are suffering with a chronic illness and chronic pain. Maybe that is emotional m pain, mental health pain, physical pain of, ah, a physical diagnosis. Maybe it's more than that. And today we're talking to author Glenna Marshall, who wrote a book about her own experience with almost two decades of chronic pain. Her book is Called praying in pain. How to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. And this is a really encouraging conversation. I told Glenna during the break that when she told me her diagnosis for me as a healthcare professional, it definitely caught my attention because is something that's hard to live with, and yet I know you can hear the same thing I am hearing. She's speaking with a smile in her voice. How do people do that? But God. That is my answer. And before the break, we were talking about, About God's faithfulness. We were talking about the laments and how the author of the lament of the psalm, pours out their pain. Glenna, you mentioned Psalm 13, especially that. How long, oh, Lord. That is underlined multiple times in my Bible with multiple dates saying, I'm still praying this. I'm still pray the same prayer. I'm still experiencing the same thing. But you talked about the turn, the turns that are there to point us toward hope, to point us towards God's faithfulness in the past. And I said I was going to talk about something called self efficacy. This is something that we use in. In, contemporary practice and contemporary. All kinds of contexts and clinical contexts where we help people look at the past and think, what have you done in the past that has been difficult? And that can remind you you can do hard things. Things. That is not a bad message that I can do hard things. An infinitely better message is that I can do hard things through him who gives me strength. I can do hard things because God is faithful and his strength is made perfect. In my weakness. That's where. That's where to me, the ultimate hope comes in. And, you know, I would love for you to introduce our listeners, just like you introduced in your book, Glenna, to the sufferer's lament. Talk a little bit. We mentioned it briefly, but talk about what is lament and why sometimes we're so uncomfortable with it. I think in this environment of self efficacy and you can do anything.
Glenna Marshall: I do think some of that is a little bit American. You know, like, we really pride ourselves on taking care of business, doing things, ourselves, you know, kind of that boost bootstrap. I'm going to take care of myself. And, in a way, talking about a, weakness or a struggle is really equated with just being weak overall. And so I remember years ago talking about, I also have a background of infertility and talking about that with an older woman in my church, and she was just horrified that I would even bring that up because you should just deal with that yourself. We don't let our troubles be known like that. And I just remember thinking, if it depends on me to be strong, I'm sunk. You know, I just don't have it in me to carry myself through my trials. And so that's one of the reasons I love the Lament psalms so much, is because I think it, it gives us room to be weak and to recognize human limitations. Because there's a lot of character attributes of God that He, you know, puts in us to reflect his image to the world. But there are some that are distinctly his and that are distinctly divine. And it is good for me in, in my human limitations to verbalize those things in the lament to the Lord. He is the source of all strength. He's omnipotent, he's omniscient. He is sovereign. He is all good. He is trustworthy. And I'm in a body that doesn't work that great. And, and yet I'm thankful that none of this depends on me being strong, because there are days that I struggle to get out of bed. And so that can't be it. That can't be the answer. It cannot be me. And so I love having the Psalms where I'm able to. I mean, I love to pray through the Psalms. I try to do that each morning, just kind of working my way through the Psalms. I'm in the, the 80s right now and just verbalizing back to the Lord. I'm, you know, I'm weak. I can count all my bones today. My bones hurt, you know, and just say to the Lord, this is where I am, because that will redirect me to lean on his strengths rather than my own. And as a type A driven person, it is very tempting. I can do this myself, you know. And so an illness has really shattered self sufficiency for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I, I'm. I'm actually in the 90s in the Psalms and Psalm 91. Psalm 91 is great because Psalm 91:1 is like my 9:1:1. You have a spiritual emergency run to, to God, who was our refuge and our strength. A very present help in time of trouble. And, you know, I think sometimes in this day and age, you know, we're getting a little more comfortable in American culture talking about the struggles that we have, being transparent in a healthy way, you know, not trauma dumping. We're, we're learning about the boundaries of all of that. But we do have this expectation and this entitlement. We're really honest Glenna. I think even when we think, when we pray, like, okay, we live in a world of instant fixes. We live in a world of, okay, I, I can find a cure. I can find, you know, something like, we're never going to give up. Like, I'm just going to rely on my own power.
Glenna says you can know God hears your prayers even when you're not healed
But one of the book central themes and one of the things that you have learned spiritually that you're sharing is that you can know that you're heard by God even when you're not healed. And I think that's a really countercultural message. And people wonder, how can we believe in a God that would let you continue to suffer? How do we know that we're heard even when we're not healed?
Glenna Marshall: Well, I love that, you know, thinking of different places in Scripture, the psalms specifically speak over and over. David's Psalms. A lot of times I, I cried out and you heard me, and you answered me and you delivered me. So you have scriptures that talk about that. But then when you go over to the New Testament and you look at the roles of the Father, the Son and the Spirit, we have even more confirmation that the Lord hears our prayers. If you are in Christ, then you have some really big things going for you. You have Jesus, who the author of Hebrews tells us in chapter 10, verses 19 and 20ish. I think that. But when Jesus died to reconcile you to God, he also gave you free access to the Father to draw near to him in prayer. That is something you are able to do, and so you should do it. And so we know that the Lord hears us. That's something that Jesus accomplished for us at the cross. But then also we have these other verses in Hebrews. I'm thinking of chapter four and chapter seven, verse 25, specifically, where we're told that Jesus right now. So if your kids are asking you, where is Jesus? Jesus is seated right now at the right hand of the Father. And what is he doing? He is interceding. He is praying for you. That is incredible. And it just changes the way I pray when I think about the fact that Jesus is praying for me. And then if that's not enough, you have, In Romans, we learned that the Holy Spirit is also taking our prayers and making them better and right before the Father. So he is interceding with groans that are too deep for words. So if I don't know how to pray, I will pray God's word back to him. But I will also depend on the fact that the Son and the Spirit are praying with Me. And for me, that is powerful. That is so encouraging to me. I sometimes don't know what to say, but I know that the Lord is saying it for me. And if. If God's going to listen to anyone, if the Father's going to listen to anyone, he's going to listen to the Son and the. The Spirit. And so, even though I may languish in a disease that, there's no real cure for, it doesn't mean that he's not hearing me. It means that, like Paul, he's going to say no to my request to remove the thorn in the flesh because he has purpose for it. Because God doesn't do anything arbitrarily. And his grace will carry me today and then tomorrow, and then, the next tomorrow, and then the next tomorrow after that. And so knowing that I'm not alone in my prayers has really encouraged me. Know the Lord hasn't healed me, but I know he has heard me, because the Bible tells me so. Just as simply as that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That. And that's why you speak with a smile in your voice, Glenn. That is why. Because how can you not when you hold on to that kind of hope? And I think about, you know, the verses from James. We're even commanded to rejoice in various trials because the testing of our faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complet. Lacking nothing. And if any of you lacks wisdom, ask the Lord, because He gives freely to those who ask. And there's been so many times, Glenna, that I, you know, I've been facing a particular trial, or I've been walking closely with someone facing a trial. And that is something I feel like I have learned about the Lord, that God does not waste pain. It is precious to Him. It has purpose. And if God was small enough to be understood, he wouldn't be big enough to be worshiped. And I don't always understand it, but, Glenna, I mean, this is a hard question to ask and a hard question to answer, but what good purposes have you seen God accomplish from your lack of healing, even though you aren't healed, but you are heard? What has God done in your life? What have you seen his hand do that you think maybe wouldn't have happened if he had answered your prayer the way that you had asked? I'll tell you.
Glenna Marshall: First and foremost, he has kept me really dependent upon him in prayer. And as a person who does, like, try to do everything on her own, and I am that very type A personality I just have to come back to Him. I see my neediness when I'm in pain. I'm always needy for the Lord every day in every way. But I really see it more when my body is really struggling. And so there's a humility that I need that the Lord has provided through a chronic pain disease. So there is that and there is an intimacy somehow. I mean, just recently I've had a bit of a flare up and have been in pretty severe pain. And I was up in the night last week one night and I mean just kind of in teeth chattering pain. It was really rough night. And I remember sitting and just breathing and praying and, and saying to the Lord, I know you're here. And there is intimacy in knowing that the Lord is with me when no one else can see it. And he's not going to leave me. He's in me. He's with me in the valley of the shadow of death. You know, on those really hard nights, I know that he's with me. There's confidence there even if I'm in pain. And so there's just a sweet intimacy and knowing that in my suffering the Lord never leaves me. but additionally, one of the things that I have really been learning in recent years is if I will look for the ways that God has carried me through my pain, then I will continue to see the ways that he will carry me. So kind of like what we were talking about earlier, but I mean like an actual list, like keeping a journal. And I'm a prolific journaler and have been my whole life, so this is easy for me. But I am going to write down all of the ways that the Lord provides for me in my pain. And the more I do it, the more I see it. And I think that developing gratitude for how the Lord has carried me today, it helps me endure tomorrow, it just does.
Glenna says she finds joy in suffering because God is preserving her
And I think that is the path to having joy in a trial. Now you don't have to be joyful about the pain itself because pain and disease are a result of the fall. But like you quoted James1aminute ago, it's like James says, you know what God does with suffering? Count it all joy when you encounter trials of various kinds. For you know, he says, it's like it's common knowledge. This is what God does with trials. He develops steadfastness in you. He doesn't waste it. And so I've seen that, you know, speaking to the self efficacy thing, I, I know I can do hard things, but it's not because of me. It's because the Lord is just sort of ringing steadfastness out of, my pain. And I, I. I'm so grateful because more and more, and the older I get and the longer I deal with this disease, more and more I see that is him that is preserving me and not me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And.
Glenna Marshall: And that's the point of my life. You know, I am not the man. I am the one who points to the man, you know, to. To the Son of God. And so I. I don't know, I find joy in knowing that he is wringing something purposeful out of this. It just has to be, you know, I don't know how people who deal with pain without Christ get through it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, I just have to be here to attest to the fact that I hear joy in your voice. I see joy on your face, and none of that makes sense. And anybody who has a healthcare background is saying, yeah, we know your diagnoses. Like, we know you have kids. You have a life. You're young, you know, and it makes. Makes no sense. It makes no sense for you to have joy. But you clearly have been in the Lord's presence. You clearly have experienced God's faithfulness, and you clearly have found strength in that. And that is a beautiful thing. You're not saying, oh, yes, because I was miraculously healed or because, oh, I found this, you know, wonderful answer of why. And this is the miraculous story. You're still sitting in the messy middle of it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And, gosh, we're already coming up on our second break. Glenna, I need more time because I have so many more questions, but when we come back, I think what I want to talk about a little bit is other people who are around you, who are in your circle.
Glenna Marshall shares her perspective on chronic pain and how caregivers can help
I think when you haven't walked a path of chronic pain, whether that, again, that's emotional pain, mental health pain, whether that's physical pain, you know, that you're living with from a chronic disease or illness. It is really hard when other people are walking through and you can't see it, and you feel like all of a sudden, oh, it's this pop quiz. Like, I have to give them some super spiritual answer, and, you know, just to say something that's overly spiritual or overly simplistic. And I know that you have some advice for how caregivers and family members, especially, who are walking alongside that journey, how they can provide encouragement, what they can say. And healing is one way that God demonstrates his love, and he does do that sometimes through miraculous healing. But his presence, as you have so beautifully illustrated for us, Glenna, is the promise that he never, ever withholds from anyone. And in our final segment with Glenna, I want to talk more about living faithfully in the waiting and how do we find hope that extends beyond this present life? That is the kind of hope that I want to hold on to. The Christian hope is never rested in having an easy life. It results in a risen savior, as Glenna said, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross scorning its shame, and now is seated at the right hand of God. And he is interceding for you. Suffering does not have to have the final word in your story. More help and hope on the other side of this break with Glenna Marshall. Praying in pain. We'll see you in just a minute.
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Keep Me in the Moment by Jeremy Camp: I've been thinking about time and where does it go
: how can I I stopped my life from passing me by I don't know I've been thinking about family now it's going so fast Will I wake up one morning just wishing that I could go back I've been thinking about lately maybe I can make a change and let it change me so with all of my heart this is my face singing Oh keep me in the moment Help me live with my eyes wide open I don't wanna miss what you have for me singing oh, show me what matters Throw away what I'm chasing after I don't wanna miss what you have for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Keep Me in the Moment by Jeremy Camp. And that's what we're talking about today, staying in the moment even when that moment may be filled with chronic pain. We're talking today to author Glenna Marshall. We've had her on the show before. Today she is sharing her very personal experience with a pretty devastating medical diagnosis that's left her in chronic pain. And her book is called Praying in Pain, how to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. And she is talking with radical transparency about a hope that is greater than herself. I mentioned Psalm 91:1. That's my 9:1:1. Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. And that's where we are in this, this moment. Sometimes God doesn't answer our prayers the way that we want him to or, expect him to, but he's not a genie in the sky, and he's given us, such hope in his word. I think of, the story of Joseph, who was really abused and mistreated and sold into slavery by his brothers. And what did he say to that? What you meant for evil, God meant for good, for the saving of many lives. And I'm convinced that Glenna's testimony is giving people hope, and I hope that it is saving lives. So, Glenna, let's jump right back in.
One of the best things you can do for a chronic pain condition is prayer
We talked about, let's step outside of ourselves for a second. Step outside of your journey. And there's a lot of people who don't walk a journey of chronic pain. It's really difficult to understand that, have empathy for that when you don't have lived experience. What encouragement would you give to those people about walking with someone? Because I know there's a lot of emotional and relational tension that can come from being really well intentioned, but just giving pat answers, easy answers for questions that are not so easy at all.
Glenna Marshall: I think one of the best things you can do for a friend or a family member who has a chronic pain condition is to faithfully pray for them and tell them that. My husband would tell you that for many years of my experience with chronic pain, he just thought he needed to fix it, so he would troubleshoot it. So let's do this. Or he would. Would almost rush to the Romans 8, 28 of it all, you know, for God works all things together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. But what he's learned is that sanctification is slow and pain is hard. And he would say if he were sitting here, what you don't need to do is try to gauge how much your loved one is hurting to gauge the seriousness of it. He would say, it's just enough to know that they're in pain. And so what you should do is acknowledge that as a real valid thing and not try to one up it, you know, like, oh, your back hurts. Well, oh, my back hurts today because I worked in the yard, you know, never happens, right? And your loved one who's, you know, can't get out of bed is like, I want to punch you. If I could just reach you right there. And so I think sometimes that one upmanship, we do it, like to try to show that we understand their suffering, but you're not in their body and so you can't really understand. So the best thing, the ways that I have been loved the most by the people in my life are, when they just believe me when I'm saying I'm having a bad day. And they're like, okay, here's how. I'm specifically praying for you today and tonight. And I've had people tell me I didn't sleep last night, so I prayed for you overnight because I know nights are hard for you. Oh, it can. It gets me choked up. Like, that makes me feel so loved because I know they can't fix it. But when I know that they're praying for me, I feel carried and supported in that way. And I know prayer seems like just such a simple thing, but it's never nothing. It is never nothing and it means a lot. So I think just expressing, acknowledging that you understand not how they feel, but that their condition is real. Because a lot of people feel dismissed in the medical community and where they feel dismissed by people who are like, oh, that's not that bad. It could be worse. Like, please don't ever say that. yes, of course it could be much worse. But the pain they feel is the pain they feel. And so I think just acknowledging it and interceding for them faithfully is such a, such a kindness.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, that is really good advice. I hope everybody's listening because we want to be helpful. We want to do something. We don't want to see our friend, our family member in pain. So you do you want to fix it. So you say, oh, well, have you tried this supplement, this coffee, this exercise, this, you know, like, whatever it is. And you have to know that somebody with a chronic illness, let me tell you, they are up to their elbows in the Internet every single day. They are researching, they are insane support groups, they are finding the best specialists in the world. Like that, that is usually not going to be so helpful. I'm saying that with all the tact that I have. Just if, if you're asked for advice, give it. But I think if you're not asked, just offering prayers, would you agree with that? Glenna, back me up here. I feel like I went out on a limb.
Glenna Marshall: Everyone means so. They're so well intentioned. But I have, I don't know if anyone knows my disease as well As I do. So I have researched. And when I say I've tr. I've tried everything. And so. And I would say that's true for most people with a chronic condition. so what you said is important. If they ask for recommendations, then feel free, but don't try to troubleshoot it as much as just be Job's friends for the first seven days. You know, just sit it. Don't start trying to come up with reasons why it might happen.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's where it went off the rails.
Glenna believes that God always heals, but healing looks different for different people
Well, one place that you have not gone off the rails, Glenna, is keeping your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of your faith. You have such an unshakable faith. You have an eternal hope, and you are confident in your healing. Talk to us more about that. Lift our eyes to the hope that seems impossible.
Glenna Marshall: Yeah, I think it's going to sound presumptuous to say this, so I hope your listeners will hang on for just a second so I can explain. But I do believe that God always heals. Now, I think that healing looks different for different people in different situations. Sometimes he heals miraculously. My dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer 18 months ago, and a year ago, my dad was miraculously healed. Praise God. I mean, I. We cannot explain, is it was miraculous, and he's doing so well. So. So there are situations like that, and then there are situations like mine where I have not been healed, but I have been treated. And so. So for. For right now, I am in a much better quality of life than I was a few years ago. I have experienced some temporary healing through the gift of modern medicine. I think medicine and medical, intervention is God's common grace to us and the way he has gifted people and their minds to research and develop things that help us. I'm so thankful. So temporary healing. You know, I know that my medications can fail, and sometimes they do. So. So there's that kind of healing, and then there's healing that's eternal. And I think of a good friend of mine, who fought cancer for two years, and we prayed and prayed for the Lord to heal her, and he took her home and he healed her in heaven. And so I think the encouragement for us here is that God does heal. Just. It may not be the kind of healing that you were. You were banking on, but the hope here is that you will be healed eternally in Christ. You have a future that stretches through eternity with no end date where you're never going to suffer again. We have this promise in 2nd Corinthians 5 where Paul talks about, you know, the bodies that we're in. He calls them tents, like a tent dwelling. And they're not created to last forever. And I know that is so true. This body is not going to last very long. And I'm so glad that I am not taking this body to heaven, because when Jesus returns, he's going to raise us and he's going to give us new tents. I mean, Paul says, and he's really kind of fighting against the philosophy of his day that people thought in the afterlife they wouldn't have bodies. They just be kind of ethereal, floaty, gauzy, you know. And a lot of people still believe that we're just kind of see through in heaven. But Paul says, absolutely not. We are going to put on new tents, new bodies that are created to last forever. And that's what we're waiting on. And so I look to forward, forward to that day that I'm going to get a new body that will never, ever hurt. My bones will never hurt again. And if you're in Christ, if you've believed in Jesus, that's what awaits you. And like, that is, the encouragement throughout most of the NewSong Testament is looking to the return of Christ. That is what helps us persevere. They always, the NewSong Testament writers, they anchor their endurance passages on the return of Jesus. This. And so should we, because there is so much that awaits us.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That, just gave me goosebumps just thinking about that and thinking about, yeah, that is the hope to which we're called, a hope that doesn't disappoint. And there are so many things in the world that do disappoint us.
Glenna, you love talking about the hope of the resurrection
And Glenna, tell us about the hope that doesn't disappoint. I know you said when we were talking, you love talking about the hope of the resurrection. I'd love for you just to lean into that and to give whoever is listening, whoever needs that word of eternal hope, can you give it to them?
Glenna Marshall: One day I was sitting in church with my kids and my younger son, who was about 9 at the time, we were, we were taking communion. So the pastors were walking through the elements of communion and talking about Jesus's crucified body. And this is his body broken for you. This is his blood poured out for you. And my young son started asking me questions. And he said, he said, mom, will we have these bodies when we're in heaven? And I said, no, we're going to get new bodies. That's the hope of the resurrection. And so he had a little scar on his face, and he tapped it, and he said, I know Jesus had scars in his hands. Will he have those scars? And I said, yeah. I mean, in his resurrected body, Thomas was able to put his hands into Jesus's scars and touch them. And so my son tapped his little scar on his face, and he said, well, I have this scar in heaven. And I just looked at him, and it completely took me, overwhelmed me that, no, you won't, because the only one with scars in heaven will be Jesus. We are going to get new bodies. And. And it is because of what Jesus did for us at the cross. You know, without the hope of the resurrection, then we should be most patient, pitied. Paul said in First Corinthians 15, but the resurrection was real, and it's coming for us. And the last enemy to be. To be destroyed is death. And I just want to encourage your listeners that if Jesus is your treasure, the best is yet to come. And. And we hold fast, because this is a, I know it doesn't feel light and momentary, but compared to what awaits us, us, it's just a breath. Just a breath.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, you made me have tears in my eyes because I'm picturing you just in what you said, sitting in that church pew, taking communion with your children. And, Glenna, I know that your children probably know better than anybody on the planet except your husband, the realities of the pain. Pain that you face and the limitations that you have, and they are most intimately acquainted. I can't stop crying with the suffering that you have and have your son look up into your face and ask that question. And for you to give him such hope with confidence. What else can we do? As moms and dads, as parents, that is the kind of confidence that God instills in us and to share with him. I cannot imagine the power of your testimony that will come to fruition and your children seeing that kind of faith. Because we have a choice. Galena and suffering. We have a choice. We can. We can turn toward bitterness. We can turn toward despair. We can turn to ourselves. We can turn to thinking we're just going to be a floaty kind of ghosty thing in the, afterlife. Or we can hold on to the hope of Jesus. Jesus. What makes you choose that every day, Glenna, and be such a good steward of your suffering to the point is bringing me to tears.
Glenna Marshall: I follow a savior who suffered, and it makes a lot of sense that in order to follow him, I'm going To walk through suffering myself. I think so many times we think the blessing of following the Lord is an escape from trials and. But we know from Scripture that God uses our suffering to make us like Jesus, who suffered more than we ever will. And no one knows suffering like him. And so there is a sweetness in drawing near to him in our pain. And I think that's the gift of trials. The Lord's not going to waste it. He's going to use it to make you like Christ.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, thank you so much for sharing with us. Thank you for reminding us, us that our faith is not measured by our circumstances and what God does to improve those or not, or where healing comes. If it doesn't come, if it's temporary, it doesn't come in this life, it's temporary, or if it comes in heaven. You have reminded us that our faith is measured by the one to whom we cling, and that is Jesus. Again, the author and perfecter of our faith. And your words have offered such tremendous encouragement to me and to anyone, I'm sure, who has wondered whether God still hears them in those seasons of prolonged suffering. And friends, perhaps you're listening today, carrying a burden that is invisible, that no one else sees. Maybe few people know that you're carrying pain, that you're walking that journey. Maybe you prayed the same prayer hundreds or even thousands of times. But be encouraged by this truth. Your father has never stopped listening. God has never stopped listening. Stop listening. Even when healing is delayed, his love is not. His purposes are good, his promises are true. And if you'd like more encouragement, you can read Praying in pain. How to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. It's by Glenna Marshall. And until next time, remember, God does not waste our suffering. He doesn't waste our pain. And Christ, even our deepest pain, can become a place where his grace, grace shines most brightly, just like it has through Glenna today. And I pray wherever road you're walking, as I always do, the Lord will bless you and keep you. Make his face to shine upon you. I'll see you tomorrow.
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: and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show, prescribing Hope for healthy Families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner, and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, hey there, friends, and welcome to my favorite time of day, getting to spend time with you, prescribing Hope for Healthy Families.
We live in a culture that prioritizes comfort over everything
And today we have a message that's a little bit hard. It. It's a little bit murky, it's a little bit difficult. I am not going to sell you a quick fix or an easy answer or a life hack that's going to fix everything. We're going to sit in the messiness of life for a little bit today. And I have some food for thought for you because really, I've been thinking a lot lately about how we live in a culture that prioritizes comfort over everything. Comfort is our highest good. Anything that makes us uncomfortable, you can ghost, you can block, you can walk away, or you can buy that miracle product. Maybe it's the right medication, the right supplement, the right treatment, the right habits, maybe even just the right mindset that just can solve nearly any problem. We are all powerful humans, and while we do have a lot of modern conveniences, we do have miracles in modern medicine. And those things can be an incredible gift from God.
There are still millions of people who wake up every morning carrying some sort of pain
There are still millions of people who wake up every morning carrying some sort of pain that doesn't seem like it's going away. Now, specifically, sometimes people experience chronic illness that comes with chronic pain. And this can be a lonely form of suffering because unlike, a broken bone or surgery or something that has a predictable mechanism, people know what happened. They know the route of recovery. Chronic pain doesn't come with an expiration date. Maybe this is mental health pain. Maybe this is physical health pain. And maybe it's the kind of pain that's just quietly there all the time, reshaping things in the background. Your relationships, your work, your ministry, your parenting, your conversations with God, even your faith. And many faithful Christians wrestle with very difficult questions, as I said. And the messiness here. Why hasn't God healed me? Does he still hear my prayers. How do I trust a God who says he's good when my circumstances seem anything but good? The beautiful news of scripture, friends, is that God never asks us to pretend that suffering isn't real. And throughout the Psalms especially, we meet saints who cry out honestly before the Lord. They have questions, they have grief, they have really gut wrenching fear and even confusion. And remarkably, God preserved those prayers for us in His Word, not as examples of weeping, weak faith, but of enduring faith. And today we're joined again by Glenna Marshall. She's the author of Praying in pain, how to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. And she has lived herself with chronic pain for more than a decade. And she's discovered that while suffering may leave us speechless, Scripture does give us words to pray. God gives us words. And drawing deeply from the Psalms, she offers biblical hope for anyone who's walking through a season of prolonged and reminds us that God's silence is not the same as God's absence. Glenna, so glad to have you back here. Thank you so much for joining us for really to tackle a very tough topic. We are not going to solve world peace in the next 47 minutes, but I know that we're going to have a conversation that will point people towards hope and help and healing. Thanks so much for being able, being willing to step in the messy middle.
Glenna Marshall: oh, well, I'm so glad to be back, so thanks for having me.
Glenna started dealing with chronic pain about 16 years ago
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, Glenna, we talked with you before, but we didn't talk about your journey with chronic pain. And really, this is a struggle that I see a lot. Of course, I'm a nurse practitioner. I see this in healthcare. and we see physical pain, but we also see emotional pain, mental pain, spiritual exhaustion, and that can be a hard place to be. But we find some remarkable honesty in the Bible, and we also find some remarkable honesty in your book, sharing your own journey. What would you like to share with us today about your own personal experience that led you to write this book and to share the message that God laid on your heart?
Glenna Marshall: I started dealing with chronic pain about 16 years ago. So I was 29 years old, so you can do the math. I just turned 45. So we're inching closer to two decades of living with chronic pain. And like a lot of women in their 20s and 30s, I developed an autoimmune disease. And, you know, I have a genetic predefined predisposition to it. I didn't know that at the time, but I Started experiencing what seemed like a lot of disparate symptoms. So chronic back pain waking me up in the night, and then skin rashes and then digestive issues and headaches and brain fog and just things I could sort of chalk up to other reasons, you know, stress or the wrong running shoes or needing a new mattress. You know, different things that didn't seem like any of these things were connected, but as time passed that they got worse and worse until my pain ramped up to levels. I mean, honestly, I would probably average about 3 hours of sleep a night. And that went on for a very long time. I chased a diagnosis for about six years, and it wasn't until I began having trouble with my vision that I ended up in, my eye doctor's office trying to figure out why the whole world looked like I was looking through fog and my eyes actually were in pain. Like eye pain was really strange and kind of a chronic headache behind my eyes. And my eye doctor looked at me and said, said, I only see this in systemic diseases. And so I think I know what's wrong with you, because he asked me a bunch of questions about my health and I was like, well, I just have this chronic spine pain that no one can figure out because I look very healthy on paper. And so he sent me to my GP for a genetic test, actually. And my gp, who I will tell you, I know for a fact Dr. Welton is a, listener of your show. So he will shout him out, no pressure. That's right, because he, he took that very seriously and sent a genetic test off to Mayo Clinic for me. And I'll never forget the notes that he left in my chart which said, you know, we're testing her for a disease called ankylosing spondylitis, and I really hope that's not what it is. And, unfortunately, yeah, because he knew, he knew that was a really painful disease. And unfortunately my test came back positive. And in the years since, my siblings also have the same genetic issue and different expressions of the disease and not very severe. But I have seem to have lived in a pretty chronic flare up for the last 16 years. Took me a long time to find a treatment that helped. And even so, I have breakthrough pain and flare ups from time to time. And I decided I needed a resource that I could give to people because people would ask me, how do you do it? How do you just live with pain all the time? And honestly, it's just day by day and it's a lot of prayer and I needed a resource 16 years ago when this started, and as many writers do, and I know you probably have done as well. You write the resource that you need, that you want to be able to give to other people. And so that led to this book
Dr. Jessica Peck: that Is the Way God Works. And, Glenna, I'm really blown away by your transparency. And just actually this week, I saw in the news you may have seen this story, too, about a meteorologist named Janice Dean, who has stepping away from her, national platform because she has a diagnosis of Ms. She has shared publicly. And it seems like that message just resonated with so many people, because there are a lot of people who suffer in silence. I definitely see this in healthcare myself, as I said, you know, in the intro. And sometimes it can be really hard when things look fine on the outside, like, you don't see any obvious physical manifestation, no obvious disfigurement or something that, you know, other people's brains could wrap their minds around. And I have. I've seen, Glenna, that a lot of people suffer in silence with this. They don't want to talk about it because they maybe don't know how to talk about it. They're afraid they'll be judged or thought they're crazy. Honestly, in some way. Why do you think it is so often that this kind of suffering just leaves us speechless before other people and even before God. Like, you just don't even know that. How that pain can impact your speech and your prayer life. What have you experienced?
Glenna Marshall: You know, I think that specifically for people who have diseases like I do, which they're classified as invisible illnesses. So, like you were saying, you can't see a, manifestation. If you met me, you thought, I'm perfectly healthy person, and yet my body, I just has so many issues. Well, I don't want to walk around and complain all the time to everybody. You know, you don't want to be that person. And yet if you've got pain running through your body, kind of like a news ticker tape just kind of rolling in the background at all times, it's in your thoughts all the time. And so you don't want to be the person who complains all the time, and yet you can't ignore it. And there's something really isolating about experiencing pain that no one else can see or that they might look at you and say, well, she looks perfectly fine to me. I don't know what she. What she's talking about. It just. You feel alone in it. And so I think trying to put words to it without being someone who's just complaining all the time or grumbling. We know we're not supposed to grumble and complain. but then what do you do? Because this is your lived reality. And so it's disheartening every day to come to the Lord and say, I am in pain. Help me get through this day. And yet I do think that is what we're supposed to do, because the encouraging thing is, no one else may see, no one else knows what it's like to live in your body, but the Lord does. He is intimately acquainted with all your ways. And so I think we should take our, complaints to the Lord. And I don't mean, like, complaining about him, but complaining to him, kind of like the psalmists do, and the many lament psalms where I don't know what to say except, lord, help me, but I think that's what we're supposed to do. I think Scripture's laid out that path and sort of a. A path of lament for us to follow when we don't know what to pray.
Dr. Jessica Peck: I'm reading through the Psalms this summer
Dr. Jessica Peck: Well, let's talk a little bit about that path. I'm actually reading through the Psalms this summer. I'm calling it A Summer in the Psalter. That's what a pastor had, a series not too long ago, and it just had a nice ring to it. But honestly, when you read some of the Psalms, Glenna, I mean, you're talking about. And I've read the Psalms my whole life, but this time I'm doing a really different kind of deep dive into them. And you're talking about some really raw emotions that God did preserve in Scripture for us to read. What do you see? Why do you think that the Psalms are this powerful guide, this powerful roadmap for those who especially are suffering and perhaps m. Even unjustly? I'm sure you felt that way, Glenna. I mean, if. If your physician is writing that, I hope this is not what it is, and then you have this.
Glenna Marshall: This.
Dr. Jessica Peck: This diagnosis. Like, you. You don't want that. Where do we see the path in the Psalms go from despair to hope.
Glenna Marshall: Yeah. So what I love about the Psalms, the lament Psalms, and really, I think it's. The percentage is something like almost 50% of the Psalms are lament psalms. And that should tell us something. First of all, that when you are in despair or in pain or discouragement, you go to the Lord, because that's what the psalmist did. And the Lord brought those psalms into part of his inspired word for us. So I think what it does is it gives room for us to mourn our situation before the Lord very honestly. And, you know, you're right. Like, think of Psalm 13, for example. How long, O Lord, will you forget me forever? I mean, those. Those are dark words, you know, but in despair, it can feel like that. What I love about most of the Laments Psalms, though, is that they give room for that complaint, what we would call a biblical complaint, where you are mourning your situation to the Lord and talking to him about it. Then they give you, like, they make you take a turn. Almost all of the Lament psalms do this. They take a turn and then they move to kind of crying out for help and asking the Lord to intervene. So that might be, help me, help me endure. Heal me, you know, do something, Lord. And. And for some of the psalmists who were in situations where they were being attacked by enemies, it was just defeat my enemies for me. And then they almost always take another turn where they pause and they remember the past faithfulness of the Lord. And I love this because so often you'll be reading this Psalms and these types of psalms, and you're thinking, okay, why are we talking about Egypt and passing through the Red Sea? Like, what is the point? But this is Israel's big story of redemption. It's like their Christmas, so to speak. It is the big story that they were supposed to tell to themselves and to their children, the next generations, over and over again to remind them of what God had done for them and rescuing them from slavery in Egypt. And so when you get to this turn in the Lament psalms, you often hear that story retold in some kind of poetic way, remember what the Lord has done for us. And I think the point of that is to help you take the final turn in the Lament Psalm, which is to say, okay, I have looked back and remembered the deeds of the Lord and how he has carried us. Therefore, I believe he will carry me through this current trial. And so that's where you sort of resolve to trust in his future faithfulness. And that's not because you have deep, stalwart faith, necessarily. Your faith can feel so weak when you're suffering, but because you have sort of laid that faith on top of the profoundly faithful acts of God, and you have remembered how he has worked. And so that's what you're anchoring your faith to. Not that you can. Yeah. Not that you can get through it, but because God has brought you through.
Dr. Jessica Peck: God has brought us through it. When we come back Glenna, I'm gonna talk about this some more, because we look at this, I want to talk about something called self efficacy and compare that to what God offers us. I'm sure you already feel encouraged. Much more. Help and hope, right? On the other side of this break, with Glenna Marshall praying in pain. See you on the other side.
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Healing Rain by Michael W. Smith: healing rain is coming down it's coming closer to the lost and found Tears of joy and tears of shame A wash forever in Jesus name Healing rain it comes with fire so let it fall and take us high your healing rain not afraid m to be washed
Dr. Jessica Peck: in Heaven's rain welcome back, friends. That is Healing Rain by Michael W. Smith. That's what we're talking about today. There are so many people who are suffering with a chronic illness and chronic pain. Maybe that is emotional m pain, mental health pain, physical pain of, ah, a physical diagnosis. Maybe it's more than that. And today we're talking to author Glenna Marshall, who wrote a book about her own experience with almost two decades of chronic pain. Her book is Called praying in pain. How to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. And this is a really encouraging conversation. I told Glenna during the break that when she told me her diagnosis for me as a healthcare professional, it definitely caught my attention because is something that's hard to live with, and yet I know you can hear the same thing I am hearing. She's speaking with a smile in her voice. How do people do that? But God. That is my answer. And before the break, we were talking about, About God's faithfulness. We were talking about the laments and how the author of the lament of the psalm, pours out their pain. Glenna, you mentioned Psalm 13, especially that. How long, oh, Lord. That is underlined multiple times in my Bible with multiple dates saying, I'm still praying this. I'm still pray the same prayer. I'm still experiencing the same thing. But you talked about the turn, the turns that are there to point us toward hope, to point us towards God's faithfulness in the past. And I said I was going to talk about something called self efficacy. This is something that we use in. In, contemporary practice and contemporary. All kinds of contexts and clinical contexts where we help people look at the past and think, what have you done in the past that has been difficult? And that can remind you you can do hard things. Things. That is not a bad message that I can do hard things. An infinitely better message is that I can do hard things through him who gives me strength. I can do hard things because God is faithful and his strength is made perfect. In my weakness. That's where. That's where to me, the ultimate hope comes in. And, you know, I would love for you to introduce our listeners, just like you introduced in your book, Glenna, to the sufferer's lament. Talk a little bit. We mentioned it briefly, but talk about what is lament and why sometimes we're so uncomfortable with it. I think in this environment of self efficacy and you can do anything.
Glenna Marshall: I do think some of that is a little bit American. You know, like, we really pride ourselves on taking care of business, doing things, ourselves, you know, kind of that boost bootstrap. I'm going to take care of myself. And, in a way, talking about a, weakness or a struggle is really equated with just being weak overall. And so I remember years ago talking about, I also have a background of infertility and talking about that with an older woman in my church, and she was just horrified that I would even bring that up because you should just deal with that yourself. We don't let our troubles be known like that. And I just remember thinking, if it depends on me to be strong, I'm sunk. You know, I just don't have it in me to carry myself through my trials. And so that's one of the reasons I love the Lament psalms so much, is because I think it, it gives us room to be weak and to recognize human limitations. Because there's a lot of character attributes of God that He, you know, puts in us to reflect his image to the world. But there are some that are distinctly his and that are distinctly divine. And it is good for me in, in my human limitations to verbalize those things in the lament to the Lord. He is the source of all strength. He's omnipotent, he's omniscient. He is sovereign. He is all good. He is trustworthy. And I'm in a body that doesn't work that great. And, and yet I'm thankful that none of this depends on me being strong, because there are days that I struggle to get out of bed. And so that can't be it. That can't be the answer. It cannot be me. And so I love having the Psalms where I'm able to. I mean, I love to pray through the Psalms. I try to do that each morning, just kind of working my way through the Psalms. I'm in the, the 80s right now and just verbalizing back to the Lord. I'm, you know, I'm weak. I can count all my bones today. My bones hurt, you know, and just say to the Lord, this is where I am, because that will redirect me to lean on his strengths rather than my own. And as a type A driven person, it is very tempting. I can do this myself, you know. And so an illness has really shattered self sufficiency for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: You know, I, I'm. I'm actually in the 90s in the Psalms and Psalm 91. Psalm 91 is great because Psalm 91:1 is like my 9:1:1. You have a spiritual emergency run to, to God, who was our refuge and our strength. A very present help in time of trouble. And, you know, I think sometimes in this day and age, you know, we're getting a little more comfortable in American culture talking about the struggles that we have, being transparent in a healthy way, you know, not trauma dumping. We're, we're learning about the boundaries of all of that. But we do have this expectation and this entitlement. We're really honest Glenna. I think even when we think, when we pray, like, okay, we live in a world of instant fixes. We live in a world of, okay, I, I can find a cure. I can find, you know, something like, we're never going to give up. Like, I'm just going to rely on my own power.
Glenna says you can know God hears your prayers even when you're not healed
But one of the book central themes and one of the things that you have learned spiritually that you're sharing is that you can know that you're heard by God even when you're not healed. And I think that's a really countercultural message. And people wonder, how can we believe in a God that would let you continue to suffer? How do we know that we're heard even when we're not healed?
Glenna Marshall: Well, I love that, you know, thinking of different places in Scripture, the psalms specifically speak over and over. David's Psalms. A lot of times I, I cried out and you heard me, and you answered me and you delivered me. So you have scriptures that talk about that. But then when you go over to the New Testament and you look at the roles of the Father, the Son and the Spirit, we have even more confirmation that the Lord hears our prayers. If you are in Christ, then you have some really big things going for you. You have Jesus, who the author of Hebrews tells us in chapter 10, verses 19 and 20ish. I think that. But when Jesus died to reconcile you to God, he also gave you free access to the Father to draw near to him in prayer. That is something you are able to do, and so you should do it. And so we know that the Lord hears us. That's something that Jesus accomplished for us at the cross. But then also we have these other verses in Hebrews. I'm thinking of chapter four and chapter seven, verse 25, specifically, where we're told that Jesus right now. So if your kids are asking you, where is Jesus? Jesus is seated right now at the right hand of the Father. And what is he doing? He is interceding. He is praying for you. That is incredible. And it just changes the way I pray when I think about the fact that Jesus is praying for me. And then if that's not enough, you have, In Romans, we learned that the Holy Spirit is also taking our prayers and making them better and right before the Father. So he is interceding with groans that are too deep for words. So if I don't know how to pray, I will pray God's word back to him. But I will also depend on the fact that the Son and the Spirit are praying with Me. And for me, that is powerful. That is so encouraging to me. I sometimes don't know what to say, but I know that the Lord is saying it for me. And if. If God's going to listen to anyone, if the Father's going to listen to anyone, he's going to listen to the Son and the. The Spirit. And so, even though I may languish in a disease that, there's no real cure for, it doesn't mean that he's not hearing me. It means that, like Paul, he's going to say no to my request to remove the thorn in the flesh because he has purpose for it. Because God doesn't do anything arbitrarily. And his grace will carry me today and then tomorrow, and then, the next tomorrow, and then the next tomorrow after that. And so knowing that I'm not alone in my prayers has really encouraged me. Know the Lord hasn't healed me, but I know he has heard me, because the Bible tells me so. Just as simply as that.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That. And that's why you speak with a smile in your voice, Glenn. That is why. Because how can you not when you hold on to that kind of hope? And I think about, you know, the verses from James. We're even commanded to rejoice in various trials because the testing of our faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complet. Lacking nothing. And if any of you lacks wisdom, ask the Lord, because He gives freely to those who ask. And there's been so many times, Glenna, that I, you know, I've been facing a particular trial, or I've been walking closely with someone facing a trial. And that is something I feel like I have learned about the Lord, that God does not waste pain. It is precious to Him. It has purpose. And if God was small enough to be understood, he wouldn't be big enough to be worshiped. And I don't always understand it, but, Glenna, I mean, this is a hard question to ask and a hard question to answer, but what good purposes have you seen God accomplish from your lack of healing, even though you aren't healed, but you are heard? What has God done in your life? What have you seen his hand do that you think maybe wouldn't have happened if he had answered your prayer the way that you had asked? I'll tell you.
Glenna Marshall: First and foremost, he has kept me really dependent upon him in prayer. And as a person who does, like, try to do everything on her own, and I am that very type A personality I just have to come back to Him. I see my neediness when I'm in pain. I'm always needy for the Lord every day in every way. But I really see it more when my body is really struggling. And so there's a humility that I need that the Lord has provided through a chronic pain disease. So there is that and there is an intimacy somehow. I mean, just recently I've had a bit of a flare up and have been in pretty severe pain. And I was up in the night last week one night and I mean just kind of in teeth chattering pain. It was really rough night. And I remember sitting and just breathing and praying and, and saying to the Lord, I know you're here. And there is intimacy in knowing that the Lord is with me when no one else can see it. And he's not going to leave me. He's in me. He's with me in the valley of the shadow of death. You know, on those really hard nights, I know that he's with me. There's confidence there even if I'm in pain. And so there's just a sweet intimacy and knowing that in my suffering the Lord never leaves me. but additionally, one of the things that I have really been learning in recent years is if I will look for the ways that God has carried me through my pain, then I will continue to see the ways that he will carry me. So kind of like what we were talking about earlier, but I mean like an actual list, like keeping a journal. And I'm a prolific journaler and have been my whole life, so this is easy for me. But I am going to write down all of the ways that the Lord provides for me in my pain. And the more I do it, the more I see it. And I think that developing gratitude for how the Lord has carried me today, it helps me endure tomorrow, it just does.
Glenna says she finds joy in suffering because God is preserving her
And I think that is the path to having joy in a trial. Now you don't have to be joyful about the pain itself because pain and disease are a result of the fall. But like you quoted James1aminute ago, it's like James says, you know what God does with suffering? Count it all joy when you encounter trials of various kinds. For you know, he says, it's like it's common knowledge. This is what God does with trials. He develops steadfastness in you. He doesn't waste it. And so I've seen that, you know, speaking to the self efficacy thing, I, I know I can do hard things, but it's not because of me. It's because the Lord is just sort of ringing steadfastness out of, my pain. And I, I. I'm so grateful because more and more, and the older I get and the longer I deal with this disease, more and more I see that is him that is preserving me and not me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And.
Glenna Marshall: And that's the point of my life. You know, I am not the man. I am the one who points to the man, you know, to. To the Son of God. And so I. I don't know, I find joy in knowing that he is wringing something purposeful out of this. It just has to be, you know, I don't know how people who deal with pain without Christ get through it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, I just have to be here to attest to the fact that I hear joy in your voice. I see joy on your face, and none of that makes sense. And anybody who has a healthcare background is saying, yeah, we know your diagnoses. Like, we know you have kids. You have a life. You're young, you know, and it makes. Makes no sense. It makes no sense for you to have joy. But you clearly have been in the Lord's presence. You clearly have experienced God's faithfulness, and you clearly have found strength in that. And that is a beautiful thing. You're not saying, oh, yes, because I was miraculously healed or because, oh, I found this, you know, wonderful answer of why. And this is the miraculous story. You're still sitting in the messy middle of it.
Dr. Jessica Peck: It.
Dr. Jessica Peck: And, gosh, we're already coming up on our second break. Glenna, I need more time because I have so many more questions, but when we come back, I think what I want to talk about a little bit is other people who are around you, who are in your circle.
Glenna Marshall shares her perspective on chronic pain and how caregivers can help
I think when you haven't walked a path of chronic pain, whether that, again, that's emotional pain, mental health pain, whether that's physical pain, you know, that you're living with from a chronic disease or illness. It is really hard when other people are walking through and you can't see it, and you feel like all of a sudden, oh, it's this pop quiz. Like, I have to give them some super spiritual answer, and, you know, just to say something that's overly spiritual or overly simplistic. And I know that you have some advice for how caregivers and family members, especially, who are walking alongside that journey, how they can provide encouragement, what they can say. And healing is one way that God demonstrates his love, and he does do that sometimes through miraculous healing. But his presence, as you have so beautifully illustrated for us, Glenna, is the promise that he never, ever withholds from anyone. And in our final segment with Glenna, I want to talk more about living faithfully in the waiting and how do we find hope that extends beyond this present life? That is the kind of hope that I want to hold on to. The Christian hope is never rested in having an easy life. It results in a risen savior, as Glenna said, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross scorning its shame, and now is seated at the right hand of God. And he is interceding for you. Suffering does not have to have the final word in your story. More help and hope on the other side of this break with Glenna Marshall. Praying in pain. We'll see you in just a minute.
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Keep Me in the Moment by Jeremy Camp: I've been thinking about time and where does it go
: how can I I stopped my life from passing me by I don't know I've been thinking about family now it's going so fast Will I wake up one morning just wishing that I could go back I've been thinking about lately maybe I can make a change and let it change me so with all of my heart this is my face singing Oh keep me in the moment Help me live with my eyes wide open I don't wanna miss what you have for me singing oh, show me what matters Throw away what I'm chasing after I don't wanna miss what you have for me.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Welcome back, friends. That is Keep Me in the Moment by Jeremy Camp. And that's what we're talking about today, staying in the moment even when that moment may be filled with chronic pain. We're talking today to author Glenna Marshall. We've had her on the show before. Today she is sharing her very personal experience with a pretty devastating medical diagnosis that's left her in chronic pain. And her book is called Praying in Pain, how to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. And she is talking with radical transparency about a hope that is greater than herself. I mentioned Psalm 91:1. That's my 9:1:1. Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. And that's where we are in this, this moment. Sometimes God doesn't answer our prayers the way that we want him to or, expect him to, but he's not a genie in the sky, and he's given us, such hope in his word. I think of, the story of Joseph, who was really abused and mistreated and sold into slavery by his brothers. And what did he say to that? What you meant for evil, God meant for good, for the saving of many lives. And I'm convinced that Glenna's testimony is giving people hope, and I hope that it is saving lives. So, Glenna, let's jump right back in.
One of the best things you can do for a chronic pain condition is prayer
We talked about, let's step outside of ourselves for a second. Step outside of your journey. And there's a lot of people who don't walk a journey of chronic pain. It's really difficult to understand that, have empathy for that when you don't have lived experience. What encouragement would you give to those people about walking with someone? Because I know there's a lot of emotional and relational tension that can come from being really well intentioned, but just giving pat answers, easy answers for questions that are not so easy at all.
Glenna Marshall: I think one of the best things you can do for a friend or a family member who has a chronic pain condition is to faithfully pray for them and tell them that. My husband would tell you that for many years of my experience with chronic pain, he just thought he needed to fix it, so he would troubleshoot it. So let's do this. Or he would. Would almost rush to the Romans 8, 28 of it all, you know, for God works all things together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. But what he's learned is that sanctification is slow and pain is hard. And he would say if he were sitting here, what you don't need to do is try to gauge how much your loved one is hurting to gauge the seriousness of it. He would say, it's just enough to know that they're in pain. And so what you should do is acknowledge that as a real valid thing and not try to one up it, you know, like, oh, your back hurts. Well, oh, my back hurts today because I worked in the yard, you know, never happens, right? And your loved one who's, you know, can't get out of bed is like, I want to punch you. If I could just reach you right there. And so I think sometimes that one upmanship, we do it, like to try to show that we understand their suffering, but you're not in their body and so you can't really understand. So the best thing, the ways that I have been loved the most by the people in my life are, when they just believe me when I'm saying I'm having a bad day. And they're like, okay, here's how. I'm specifically praying for you today and tonight. And I've had people tell me I didn't sleep last night, so I prayed for you overnight because I know nights are hard for you. Oh, it can. It gets me choked up. Like, that makes me feel so loved because I know they can't fix it. But when I know that they're praying for me, I feel carried and supported in that way. And I know prayer seems like just such a simple thing, but it's never nothing. It is never nothing and it means a lot. So I think just expressing, acknowledging that you understand not how they feel, but that their condition is real. Because a lot of people feel dismissed in the medical community and where they feel dismissed by people who are like, oh, that's not that bad. It could be worse. Like, please don't ever say that. yes, of course it could be much worse. But the pain they feel is the pain they feel. And so I think just acknowledging it and interceding for them faithfully is such a, such a kindness.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, that is really good advice. I hope everybody's listening because we want to be helpful. We want to do something. We don't want to see our friend, our family member in pain. So you do you want to fix it. So you say, oh, well, have you tried this supplement, this coffee, this exercise, this, you know, like, whatever it is. And you have to know that somebody with a chronic illness, let me tell you, they are up to their elbows in the Internet every single day. They are researching, they are insane support groups, they are finding the best specialists in the world. Like that, that is usually not going to be so helpful. I'm saying that with all the tact that I have. Just if, if you're asked for advice, give it. But I think if you're not asked, just offering prayers, would you agree with that? Glenna, back me up here. I feel like I went out on a limb.
Glenna Marshall: Everyone means so. They're so well intentioned. But I have, I don't know if anyone knows my disease as well As I do. So I have researched. And when I say I've tr. I've tried everything. And so. And I would say that's true for most people with a chronic condition. so what you said is important. If they ask for recommendations, then feel free, but don't try to troubleshoot it as much as just be Job's friends for the first seven days. You know, just sit it. Don't start trying to come up with reasons why it might happen.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That's where it went off the rails.
Glenna believes that God always heals, but healing looks different for different people
Well, one place that you have not gone off the rails, Glenna, is keeping your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of your faith. You have such an unshakable faith. You have an eternal hope, and you are confident in your healing. Talk to us more about that. Lift our eyes to the hope that seems impossible.
Glenna Marshall: Yeah, I think it's going to sound presumptuous to say this, so I hope your listeners will hang on for just a second so I can explain. But I do believe that God always heals. Now, I think that healing looks different for different people in different situations. Sometimes he heals miraculously. My dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer 18 months ago, and a year ago, my dad was miraculously healed. Praise God. I mean, I. We cannot explain, is it was miraculous, and he's doing so well. So. So there are situations like that, and then there are situations like mine where I have not been healed, but I have been treated. And so. So for. For right now, I am in a much better quality of life than I was a few years ago. I have experienced some temporary healing through the gift of modern medicine. I think medicine and medical, intervention is God's common grace to us and the way he has gifted people and their minds to research and develop things that help us. I'm so thankful. So temporary healing. You know, I know that my medications can fail, and sometimes they do. So. So there's that kind of healing, and then there's healing that's eternal. And I think of a good friend of mine, who fought cancer for two years, and we prayed and prayed for the Lord to heal her, and he took her home and he healed her in heaven. And so I think the encouragement for us here is that God does heal. Just. It may not be the kind of healing that you were. You were banking on, but the hope here is that you will be healed eternally in Christ. You have a future that stretches through eternity with no end date where you're never going to suffer again. We have this promise in 2nd Corinthians 5 where Paul talks about, you know, the bodies that we're in. He calls them tents, like a tent dwelling. And they're not created to last forever. And I know that is so true. This body is not going to last very long. And I'm so glad that I am not taking this body to heaven, because when Jesus returns, he's going to raise us and he's going to give us new tents. I mean, Paul says, and he's really kind of fighting against the philosophy of his day that people thought in the afterlife they wouldn't have bodies. They just be kind of ethereal, floaty, gauzy, you know. And a lot of people still believe that we're just kind of see through in heaven. But Paul says, absolutely not. We are going to put on new tents, new bodies that are created to last forever. And that's what we're waiting on. And so I look to forward, forward to that day that I'm going to get a new body that will never, ever hurt. My bones will never hurt again. And if you're in Christ, if you've believed in Jesus, that's what awaits you. And like, that is, the encouragement throughout most of the NewSong Testament is looking to the return of Christ. That is what helps us persevere. They always, the NewSong Testament writers, they anchor their endurance passages on the return of Jesus. This. And so should we, because there is so much that awaits us.
Dr. Jessica Peck: That, just gave me goosebumps just thinking about that and thinking about, yeah, that is the hope to which we're called, a hope that doesn't disappoint. And there are so many things in the world that do disappoint us.
Glenna, you love talking about the hope of the resurrection
And Glenna, tell us about the hope that doesn't disappoint. I know you said when we were talking, you love talking about the hope of the resurrection. I'd love for you just to lean into that and to give whoever is listening, whoever needs that word of eternal hope, can you give it to them?
Glenna Marshall: One day I was sitting in church with my kids and my younger son, who was about 9 at the time, we were, we were taking communion. So the pastors were walking through the elements of communion and talking about Jesus's crucified body. And this is his body broken for you. This is his blood poured out for you. And my young son started asking me questions. And he said, he said, mom, will we have these bodies when we're in heaven? And I said, no, we're going to get new bodies. That's the hope of the resurrection. And so he had a little scar on his face, and he tapped it, and he said, I know Jesus had scars in his hands. Will he have those scars? And I said, yeah. I mean, in his resurrected body, Thomas was able to put his hands into Jesus's scars and touch them. And so my son tapped his little scar on his face, and he said, well, I have this scar in heaven. And I just looked at him, and it completely took me, overwhelmed me that, no, you won't, because the only one with scars in heaven will be Jesus. We are going to get new bodies. And. And it is because of what Jesus did for us at the cross. You know, without the hope of the resurrection, then we should be most patient, pitied. Paul said in First Corinthians 15, but the resurrection was real, and it's coming for us. And the last enemy to be. To be destroyed is death. And I just want to encourage your listeners that if Jesus is your treasure, the best is yet to come. And. And we hold fast, because this is a, I know it doesn't feel light and momentary, but compared to what awaits us, us, it's just a breath. Just a breath.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, you made me have tears in my eyes because I'm picturing you just in what you said, sitting in that church pew, taking communion with your children. And, Glenna, I know that your children probably know better than anybody on the planet except your husband, the realities of the pain. Pain that you face and the limitations that you have, and they are most intimately acquainted. I can't stop crying with the suffering that you have and have your son look up into your face and ask that question. And for you to give him such hope with confidence. What else can we do? As moms and dads, as parents, that is the kind of confidence that God instills in us and to share with him. I cannot imagine the power of your testimony that will come to fruition and your children seeing that kind of faith. Because we have a choice. Galena and suffering. We have a choice. We can. We can turn toward bitterness. We can turn toward despair. We can turn to ourselves. We can turn to thinking we're just going to be a floaty kind of ghosty thing in the, afterlife. Or we can hold on to the hope of Jesus. Jesus. What makes you choose that every day, Glenna, and be such a good steward of your suffering to the point is bringing me to tears.
Glenna Marshall: I follow a savior who suffered, and it makes a lot of sense that in order to follow him, I'm going To walk through suffering myself. I think so many times we think the blessing of following the Lord is an escape from trials and. But we know from Scripture that God uses our suffering to make us like Jesus, who suffered more than we ever will. And no one knows suffering like him. And so there is a sweetness in drawing near to him in our pain. And I think that's the gift of trials. The Lord's not going to waste it. He's going to use it to make you like Christ.
Dr. Jessica Peck: Glenna, thank you so much for sharing with us. Thank you for reminding us, us that our faith is not measured by our circumstances and what God does to improve those or not, or where healing comes. If it doesn't come, if it's temporary, it doesn't come in this life, it's temporary, or if it comes in heaven. You have reminded us that our faith is measured by the one to whom we cling, and that is Jesus. Again, the author and perfecter of our faith. And your words have offered such tremendous encouragement to me and to anyone, I'm sure, who has wondered whether God still hears them in those seasons of prolonged suffering. And friends, perhaps you're listening today, carrying a burden that is invisible, that no one else sees. Maybe few people know that you're carrying pain, that you're walking that journey. Maybe you prayed the same prayer hundreds or even thousands of times. But be encouraged by this truth. Your father has never stopped listening. God has never stopped listening. Stop listening. Even when healing is delayed, his love is not. His purposes are good, his promises are true. And if you'd like more encouragement, you can read Praying in pain. How to know you're heard when you haven't been healed. It's by Glenna Marshall. And until next time, remember, God does not waste our suffering. He doesn't waste our pain. And Christ, even our deepest pain, can become a place where his grace, grace shines most brightly, just like it has through Glenna today. And I pray wherever road you're walking, as I always do, the Lord will bless you and keep you. Make his face to shine upon you. I'll see you tomorrow.
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Author and speaker Glenna Marshall joins Jessica to talk about the journey that led her to write the book Praying in Pain: How to Know You're Heard When You Haven't Been Healed
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