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hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day. I hope you're having a great day, whatever you're doing, wherever you're going. As we're starting to enter the holiday rush, one thing I want you to think about before Thanksgiving. Yes, even those of you who don't put your tree up until after the turkey is carved and put away into leftovers. This is something you need to do now. I'M reminding you about opera Christmas child. You can pack your shoe boxes now to send Christmas gifts to a child around the world. My producer Stephanie had a big packing party on Sunday. We have so many boxes that are ready to go. There is a suggested ten dollar donation for each box to help pay for shipping. But when you register you get to see where it goes. And so you can go to samaritanspurse.org/occ that's samaritanspurse.org/occ you'll see all the things about what to pack, where to take, where's the drop off, when do you have to do it? And that date is coming up really quickly. The Collection week is November 16th through the 23rd. And be listening in because we're going to do as we do every year, interview a recipient of an Operation Christmas child shoebox. And I always have to get the tissue box along with the shoebox because such beautiful stories of God's love that goes around the world. And we want to show love to those children all around the world. We also want to show love to the kids in our own lives, especially our own kids. You can love your kids with everything that you have. You can give them all of your best and still feel overwhelmed by just the amount of sheer need that they have and what they need from you. And you can believe deeply in your calling as a parent, as a minister as well, and just wake up wondering, where am I going to find the strength to give for another day? Now I know especially how much parents are caring. I know how much people are ministering and ministry can carry. There are the visible responsibilities, the work, the meals, the appointments that all of the, the scheduling, the meetings, the food that everybody needs, all of those logistics. But there's also the things that go beneath the surface and we think about the kids were maybe worried about what's going on there. Am I, I'm lean in. Am m I doing everything that I can? Is my ministry really making a difference? You keep replaying a conversation in your mind. You keep asking yourself questions. Am I doing enough to prepare them for a world that just feels increasingly complicated? And we're praying for the people we're serving. We're showing up for them. And sometimes by the end of the day, the people you love the most at home received the smallest portion of your patients. Now for parental exhaustion, especially research put some numbers on on that. Parental burnout is something that has been increasingly studied since COVID parents just feeling really tired. And one survey among working parents, this was Over a thousand working parents, 65% said, yeah, we feel burned out. And that reflects, I think, the pulse of what families are feeling. And a separate international study found the same, that, yeah, parents are feeling that, and we know that ministers, pastors are feeling that, too. This is a really difficult time to step into ministry where the public is so polarized and everything seems so complicated. And, my guests today are going to step right into the middle of that messiness, and I'm so excited about it. We have today father and son duo. How amazing is that? Who wrote a book called the First Five Beating the Odds and Thriving as a Ministry Leader. If you have m, if you're a minister, if you have lay leaders in your church, this is such a helpful field guide. It is really a survival resource. I think that will help. But everything that we're talking about today, I really want you to think about leading and ministering inside your home as well. Because as I was reading this, I thought, yeah, this is everything that we're feeling. No matter where you're ministering, if you are a pastor in the pulpit, if you are a lunch lady who's ministering to kids in the lunch line, if you are a bus driver, if you are a mom, if you are a dad, everybody is ministering to somebody, and we can be exhausted. How so the question today is, how do we care? He. We just keep on caring deeply without feeling like we're completely depleted. How do we stay present to those people God has entrusted to us? So the father, son, today I have it back. Is son. We'll start with the son, which who is Kyle Worley. You may recognize him. We had a great conversation back earlier in the spring about his children's book, the Dragon Slayer, and his super suit. I have it right here on my desk. It is such a cheerful, encouraging message. He is a pastor, a teacher, a host of the Knowing Faith podcast. I know a lot of you listen to that, too. He's a teacher in Lifeways Deep Discipleship program. And his father, who is also Joining us today, Dr. Joseph Worley, has served in pastoral leadership for more than 40 years. So they're bringing more than 60 years of ministry experience together to this book. The first five Beating the Odds and Thriving as a ministry leader. And I am really excited to dive into their relationship because it really gives a meaningful perspective. Perspective because Kyle spent his first three years in ministry serving under his dad's leadership. So we're just going to dive right in. Kyle and Joseph, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so grateful to each of you for your work and for your presence here and sharing that work with us today. I'm really glad to be here. Thanks for having us.
Joseph Describes Building A Christian Home And Faith Legacy
Dr. Jessica Peck All right, well, I want to start at the beginning. And so, dad, I'm going to start with you. Joseph. We'll start with you. We had Kyle on, and he's already given us a little spoiler of what his childhood was like. And. And I'll give you a spoiler. It was all good. He had nothing but good things to say about you guys. But looking at this generational legacy, I want to start with yours. How did you come to know the Lord, and how did he call you into ministry?
Joseph Worley Well, I really wasn't raised in a Christian home as such as we would define a disciple making Christian home for sure. And, but after I came to. To faith in Christ, one of the things that I noticed were the families in my life, outside of my immediate family, noticing how they raised their children. And I thought, you know, when I grow up, when I, have my own family, I, I want to have something like that. I, I want to have a home where my kids know that I love them, I'm present with them, and that I'm teaching them about the Lord. and so that was very aspirational for me at the time. But when my wife and I met, we were on the same page. And. And she came from a Christian home. And. And we, you know, initiated from the very beginning of our relationship to make sure that our home was that safe haven. It was that place where, ultimately where the heart could be cultivated and the home could be strengthened. so that was before we ever had children. but as we began to have children, can. Kyle being our firstborn, and the test project. Right. So
Dr. Jessica Peck the guinea pig.
Joseph Worley The guinea pig. but we had some good examples early on in our. In our, marriage of people who were attempting to do discipleship well, in their home. Some of it was very structured, some of it was not. We took probably less than a structured, approach in our home. I mean, it was intentional. Every day we engaged our children, you know, spiritually and, whether in prayer, before school, at the end of the day, reading, you know, the scriptures and talking about that with them. So, we didn't march them in with little suits and ties and have formal gatherings of that kind. But. But it was very intentional. I don't know how far you want me to go with this, but it, it began very aspirational for me. Is that this is the kind of home I wanted, but I didn't really have a lot to look at to say, this is what you do.
Dr. Jessica Peck That is. That is a really encouraging thing to me, Joseph, because you're really presenting two different circumstances. You did not grow up in a Christian home. You created and nurtured a Christian home to raise your son. And that's encouraging to people who come from both of those places, you know, whether they come m from a heritage of faith or whether they are starting their own heritage of faith. How did you get called into the ministry, Joseph?
Joseph Worley I was. It was in my, junior year college. I was in University of Texas in Arlington and was finishing a business degree, had become very involved in college ministry and really was just in, in a worship service and sensed, a deep, abiding call that, okay, I think this is what God's calling me to do. Now. There were a lot of nurturing things, that were happening that, that they figured into the calculus, I think, in terms of, I'd begin to grow in my, my spiritual walk, reading of scripture, serving in various capacities in what was called student ministry here in Texas, Baptist student ministry particularly. And, through leadership roles and things like this. The waters had been tested. So I think there was a cultivation that was going on before I really understood it. So that when I did actually sense that impression from the Lord, I knew, okay, this is what the Lord's calling me to do. I was also a track, a pole vaulter in college. And so I went to my track coach and said, coach, I'm done. He said, well, what's up? I said, well, I feel like the Lord's calling me the ministry. And, I had to explain to him what that looked like. Okay, you're quitting. You're. What are you doing? And are you going to quit school? I said, no, I'm not quitting school. I finished a business degree, but I went on to do biblical studies education, in response to that calling.
Dr. Jessica Peck I love that unlikely story. I mean, really not raised in a Christian home business major, pole vaulter turned pastor like that is. That is a really good start.
Kyle Shares His Early Calling And Lessons From His Father
And Kyle, let's go to you from one guinea pig to another, because I am also the oldest and a fellow guinea pig there. You've already shared a lot previously when you were on. You've shared just your admiration for your parents and how much they poured into you and how they read to you from an early age, the classics, and they read to you great works of Great. religious works and literature works and of course, the word of God. I would, you can say anything that you want to say, you know, about your childhood. But I would also love to know about how you were called into the ministry and how you started ministry working under your dad's tutelage.
Kyle Worley Yeah. The only other thing I would add to just kind of the family history is, if you're listening to this and you're wondering, like, man, how, like, I didn't come from a place of faith. I don't really have a heritage of faith. Like, every heritage of faith in the broken world starts with somebody who is a cycle breaker. That's how every inheritance of faith begins. In a broken world, there is not one that is untainted by sin. There are just men and women who say, you know what? I'm going to pursue the fear of the Lord. My home is going to be marked by the fear of the Lord, and that begins now. Even if I have, nothing behind me, the Lord can redeem the future in a powerful way. So I would just encourage you in that. As far as a call to ministry. I experienced a call to ministry in late middle school. I was not pole vaulting at the time. If you, if it. This is an audio format, but if you took two looks at me, you wouldn't think that I was in danger of pole vaulting. I'm not built like a pole vaulter. So I was not pole vaulting when the Lord called me into ministry. I was just, I was in late middle school, early high school. And, you, know, it was really cool and encouraging because my father was so sober minded about kind of responding to that call. There wasn't any sort of like, like lighter fluid that they poured on that. I remember one of the first things he told me. A call to ministry is a call to be a student of God's word. And so if you really feel called to ministry, the first place we'll begin is by studying God's word in a more concerted way. So let's start there. And that has really served me my entire ministry. and so I'm tremendously grateful for that. But, yeah, I was just in late middle school, early high school. I had prepared Jessica, I had prepared a career day presentation project on being orthopedic surgeon. I prepared. And, and, and I, just in the moments before I was supposed to give that presentation, sitting in my classroom, I felt something that was less than an audible voice, more than an impression. Tell me you're not going to be an orthopedic surgeon. You're going to be a pastor. And so I got up and told my class, guys, I don't know what to tell you. I prepared this presentation, but the Lord has just told me that I'm not going to be an orthopedic surgeon. I'm going to be a pastor. And I'll tell you this, Jessica, your classmates in eighth grade, they never, ever forget that moment. that, that definitely reverberated through the rest of my high school. And maybe the Lord used it to keep me from a lot of foolishness in high school.
Dr. Jessica Peck Oh, my goodness. I, I love that so much, man. We have so much in common. Kyle. Also not a pole vaulter. I, I've shared on the sports series that we've been doing with, Brian Uszynski and Ed Smith. Yes, I always get, I always try to mix their names up, but we're doing a sports series and I said that, you know, when I was in middle school, I was made the permanent scorekeeper because they were worried about my self esteem because I was always picked last. So clearly their, their efforts worked because I ended up okay. But when we come back, we coming up against our first break, I want to dive into this book and really what I want to first talk about is what happens in those first five years of ministry that can leave someone who's really sincere, who's well prepared and just questioning, can I keep going? Can I keep on doing this? And you know, I think it's going to be great to get both of your perspectives because, Joseph, you know, you're decking decades in now. Kyle, you're following the footsteps of your father. You're seeing with different eyes some of the new challenges that are emerging for pastors. And if you have a pastor you love that, you just think, oh, they, they just teach the word of God. And I just love him and their family. Tell them, tell that pastor today. Tell them how much you appreciate them. It doesn't matter if October's gone and it's not Pastor Appreciation Month anymore. They need some encouragement. We'll be right back with Kyle and Joseph Worley. Don't go away. Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by, visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Live Out Loud by Steven Curtis Chapman Imagine this. I get a phone call from Regis. He says, do you want to be a millionaire? They put me on the show and I went with two lifelines to spare. And I picture this, I act like nothing ever happened and bury all the money in a coffee can. Well, I've been given more than Regis ever gave away. I was a dead man who was called to come out of my grave. I think it's time for making some noise. Wake the neighbor, get the word out. Come on. Crank out the music by the mountain.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That's Live Out Loud by Steven Curtis Chapman. And what we're talking about today. How do we live our faith out loud without really becoming burned out? I'm talking to father and son today. Kyle Worley, Dr. Joseph Worley. Kyle is the son. Joseph is the father. They are a father, son duo in ministry. And they've written a book called the First Five. Beating the Odds and Thriving as a Ministry Leader. And they've just shared their personal family testimony. Joseph not growing up in a Christian home, but coming to know the Lord and being called into m ministry and really wanting to create, being a cycle breaker, as his son says, and creating a generational legacy of faith which his son Kyle is living out in his walk as a pastor, an author, a podcaster. And Kyle, I want to go back to you, first here in this next segment because the subtitle of this book is Beating the Odds and Thriving as a Ministry Leader. That's kind of sobering because the odds are you're going to get burnout. What did you guys see happening from your own experience and from your preparation and writing this book? What happens in those first five years of ministry that leaves someone who enters optimistic, bright eyed, you know, with just full of hope? What makes them question whether they can keep going? What happens in those first five years?
Kyle Worley Well, you know, and I actually think this is a really important question both for those listeners who are ministry leaders, either vocational or volunteer, and those who are just faithful participants in the life of ministry organizations or churches, because the illiteracy here is on both sides. a lot of ministry leaders do not receive a lot of intentional development in those first five years. Now, some of your listeners might be thinking, well, that's kind of obvious to me because it seems very clear they don't know what they're doing, right? Like, they might be in churches or they might be in organizations and be thinking, God bless their heart. You know, you might have listeners who are thinking, I see There's a lot of good intentions here. It just seems like the execution and the follow through isn't very wise and prudent. Well, with emerging ministry leaders, that's often because there's not a lot of intentional development for them. What happens, Jessica, is you have weary ministry leaders who are overtaxed and burdened. Typically, they're aging in leadership. And then you have emerging ministry leaders. And these emerging ministry leaders, they're fresh energy, fresh zeal. And these more seasoned ministry leaders, they're tired and weary, and so they don't have a lot of time to give to development. And the people that are coming in to help them need a lot of development. And so this intersection is a pretty crucial one. The data tells us that most, vocational ministry leaders, particularly senior leaders, now are over the age of 60. And at the same time, most emerging ministry leaders are not making it past five years of ministry leadership. Well, that's a coming cliff, because this means that a lot of your most seasoned ministry leaders are about to age out of service, and a lot of emerging ministry leaders are not making it deep enough into leadership to be able to glean from their own experience. And so we have a development crisis. So the book has really been written to try to encourage and equip ministry leaders, both those who are vocational and volunteer and those people who participate in ministries, to just be faithful, to have some very basic principles and practices that, whether they're ministering at home or in the life of their church or in a nonprofit, whether as a volunteer servant or as a patient paid leader, we think there are some transferable principles and practices that are helpful for any leaders in any capacity, in any environment.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I really relate to what you're saying, Kyle. And you know, some people may think, oh, that's a bridge too far. But I see so many parallels between ministry and the profession of nursing. My own profession, because it's a caring profession, we have a lot of burnout since COVID because we just had such an overwhelming of need. People were sick physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and there was a lot of need. And we just see this burnout happening in the profession. And, and what you were describing, Kyle, I call that, well, in well intentioned but ill equipped, like they. Yeah, that's a great
Kyle Worley way to say
Dr. Jessica Peck it. Yeah, they want to do such a good job, but they're just not equipped for the challenges that they're going to have and not equipped to care for themselves either. I see a lot of that too, because, you know, it's Just like, oh, I got to be there for everybody else. And as nurses were running around making sure everybody's well hydrated and nourished and well rested, and we're dehydrated, malnourished and exhausted. And ministry leaders are the same thing. Feeding other people's souls without stopping to feed their own. So I see. I see this, and I feel this really deeply.
Joseph Advocates Mentorship That Develops Skill Without Dimming Zeal
And Joseph, let's go to you with this, because I think there's a special perspective that you have here. You know, having been seasoned in ministry, having been on the other end of that spectrum that Kyle was talking about, having walked through some things and having some balanced perspective, it's probably so exciting for you to see your son coming into the ministry. But you also know very, very well the challenges that are ahead of him, and you don't want to bombard him and say, oh, well, let me just tell you in advance all the things that are going to be terrible and hard. How do you balance that? What. What were the challenges that, you know, you. You wanted him to understand but before he had even experienced it? How do you balance that? Like preparing them but also not scaring them off.
Joseph Worley Exactly. Yeah. You want to affirm their aspiration for ministry. the problem is that in. In one of the problems, one of the challenges, I guess we would say, is that there is a great deal of zeal initially and a level of idealism that you really want. You don't want to. You don't want to cool. There's their zeal. You want that to occur. but there's a lack of knowledge, or better yet, wisdom, you know, of skillful development and dependency, dependence, upon the Lord and dependence upon mentors and, those who are seasoned. I mean, again, you're in the nursing field, so, you know, in the medical field. So, you know, they can have all the. The brightness and knowledge and capacity, show promise. But then there's the. The practicum. There's the actual doing of the work that has to be done. And. And until you do it, you really don't know. I mean, it's textbook. It's. It's, It's a matter of. Of knowledge. I think I know that, but I've never really done it. for instance, early on in my ministry, my first pastoral ministry, I had taken pastoral ministry, but I had never done a funeral before. I mean, as basic as that sounds, I'd only attended two funerals. So when I was asked to do the first funeral, I was grateful when that, church, member Said, look, would it be okay if we ask our former pastor to come back? And inside it was like, hallelujah. Y. I am so grateful, you know, on the outside, you know, I just tried to, you know, remain modest. Well, sure, that. That would be okay, but I was so grateful. And then I watched him. I just watched everything he did. And almost 500 funerals later, I. I pretty much do funerals like I did when I first watched it. And so the problem isn't the zeal. I mean, the challenge is, Is. Is the. The zeal without the skill. Okay, but you don't want to throw water on that. You want to. You want to identify that. Allow the idealism of those who are young in ministry to emerge, but give them direction, parameter, help, them develop the personal life, their shepherding life, and ultimately some of the professional skills necessary to be successful.
Dr. Jessica Peck Yes. I want to come back to that in just a minute, that self care. But, Kyle, let me ask you first. One of the things that we saw that happened after Covid. I know I keep saying that word. Everybody wants to move on, but the truth is it changed the church and it changed ministry because so many ministries went online, and it's like it just kind of pulled the curtain back on what everybody was doing and what, you know, everybody was happy with. You start having this comparison. Oh, they have this program. Oh, they use this technology. Oh, their worship band sounds like this. Oh, this pastor, you know, he uses this visual aid. And then all of a sudden we have, you know, metrics are important, outcomes are important, but we have this pressure of how do you know if you're doing a good job? How do you know if your ministry is effective? Especially in those, those early years where you may not have had time for a lot of fruit to grow, you may not have had that benefit of life experience, and you're getting pressure, maybe even from your church team. Like, we haven't had this many baptisms or, you know, this many attendance or those kinds of things. How do we balance that? How can a minister know and find reassurance and the effectiveness of their ministry outside of numbers and outcomes and productivity and programs?
Kyle Worley I think it really begins with identity and calling. And this is two areas where we see ministry leaders, seasoned and emerging, vocational and volunteer, get a lot of confusion kind of in their system. The first is identity. You know, the way that we measure identity is not by what we do, but by God. God, but by who God says we are. This is fundamental in scripture. Notice that Jesus Christ at his baptism before he has healed the sick, taught the greatest sermon ever preached, died on the cross, rose from the dead. The the Father pronounces over the Son, this is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased. Jesus Christ is beloved before his public ministry even begins. We operate as children of God before we operate as servants of the Lord. And the moment we forget this is the moment, moment that we are bound to fall into comparison. Envy and resentment. That's square one. That's identity. The second component is calling. And by calling, I don't necessarily mean the moment where you feel called to ministry, but really what role is God calling you to play in the church? We have a lot of ministry leaders whose comparison is looking at what God has called somebody else to undertake and thinking, why not me? Well, God entrusts the portion that he has for people in accordance with his good purposes, not our own preferences. And it's clear throughout Scripture that often those who are accorded great power are also put under great persecution. You never really can tell what somebody who has maybe a platform or a, kind of a ministry that has recognition is enduring. As far as spiritual opposition goes, be very cautious that you do not envy somebody's platform, only to forget the persecution and opposition they're experiencing. Oftentimes the two go hand in hand. We see one, we do not see or feel the other. But more than that, Jessica, is really asking the question, is God calling me to serve in this church as a member, as a deacon or minister or elder or pastor? You know, we've really, in a world of job specialization and careerism and ministry, we've really forgotten there only really a fundamental three ways to serve in the life of the church. A member, a deacon, and an elder. And they look a lot of, they can show up in a lot of different ways in a lot of different churches. But those are the three offices of the church. We've all been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation. All of the gifts are necessary and needed. They play themselves out in these three offices. And it's okay for God to entrust different ministry applications or niches to different people at different time. That's totally appropriate. One body, many members isn't just true for every local church. It's true for all of the churches bound up together in Christ.
Dr. Jessica Peck Such wise words, Kyle. And I'm so glad that you brought up that, that uncomfortable thing about persecution, because that is really real and, and really in a very strong way that strengthens my faith. Because if I'm look at people looking at people who are following the Lord with all of their heart and they are really just so pure in their intentions. And just to see them encounter things that seem so unfair in a way, to see them, why, why would that happen? Why? just. But to see them specifically targeted out, you think there's got to be something to that. And, and we should not take that lightly, that spiritual warfare is a, Is definitely a real thing. And I would just remind our listeners to pray for their pastors, for their deacons, for their elders, for their ministry leaders, pray for them. Because we also know that, that God, you know, the prayer of a righteous man, availeth much. And I'm going back to my old school roots there, but that is really important to do. Joseph, let me ask you in, in light of all that Kyle said, there's a, there's a point, there's a season where you start to feel discouraged, you start to feel some self doubt, you start to think maybe, maybe you doubt your calling, maybe you doubt where you are, maybe you doubt your ability to fulfill God's calling. What happens when you first start feeling that? And how should a minister respond to that? Because I think a lot of them, they're. It's hard to be transparent about that. And they tend just to stuff it down until it can't, it can't be contained any longer. What should they do instead?
Joseph Worley Well, hopefully you have some trusted mentors. that's one of the things I would go back and in change in the earliest years. You know, I'm from a generation where that's what you do. You just sort of stuff it down in there and hopefully nobody sees it, you know, oozing out somewhere. And so, you know, being vulnerable with someone is very important, particularly another minister, someone that you can share your life with, apart your struggles and challenges. And having a mentor relationship could be extremely helpful, along with, you know, just developing the spiritual disciplines and cultivating your own, your own spiritual life, your prayer life and those things. On a practical level, for me, I have, I have often stood before the people since I'm a senior pastor. but in whatever capacity someone might be, they could do something similar. And just before I speak, there's just a pause and I. And you know how your life sort of flashes before you. I think about the moment in which the Lord really began to work in my life as a teenager. And I remember before I knew all these people, before I knew my wife, before I had our fam. You know, we had our family, it was me and Jesus on that little Yamaha 100 motorcycle in Central Texas, you know, And I thought, you know, Jesus, Jesus, you got it started. And, you know, I'm not giving you a ride down the street. You're the one. You're the one who's carrying me. And I just really paused and said, lord, thank you. Thank you. I. I never imagined you would do much of anything with my life. I don't think I ever contemplated that. But thank you for what you've done. And there have been some really hard times in ministry, times that I felt like. That I felt like there were worse things than death experiences. and it. And it's been moments like that, simple moments just to go back and say, lord, you call me to this. This is. This is not something that I conjured up. I had no framework for this to begin with. And I'm grateful that you call me. There's great joy in it. Remind me of the joy. Remind me of the things that you call me to. because the hardships are there, but, you know, they're there for everybody and whatever job they have. But, sometimes you can fill in ministry like I am the only prophet left,
Dr. Jessica Peck but that is not true. You know, I'm going to hold you right there, Joseph, because you are not the only prophet left. If you're listening and feeling discouraged, come back right after the break. So much more encouragement with Kyle and Joseph Worley. We'll be right back.
Joseph Says Ministry Flows From Relationship And Faithfulness
Buddy Smith Jeff Chamblee We live in a day when America's families are under attack like never before. Buddy Smith, senior vice president of the American Family Association. The war against biblical principles rages on numerous fronts. The Internet, Hollywood, Washington, D.C. america's corporate boardrooms, and the list goes on. At American Family association, we're committed to standing against the enemies of God, the enemies of your family, and we recognize an impossible task without God's favor and your partnership. Thank you for being faithful to pray for this ministry, to give financially and to respond to our calls for activism. What you do on the home front is crucial to what we do on the battlefront. We praise God for your faithfulness and may he give us many victories in the battles ahead as we work together to restore our nation's biblical foundations.
Oh Death by MercyMe You said my fate was sealed. You said my days were numbered. case closed with no appeal. My future six feet under messing with my head in ghost fashion My heart was holding it breath terrified of taking my last one oh, death, you scared me to death. Whoa, you ain't my king bro. Whoa. Where did your sting go? Dance I Will not be afraid in the end you will lose. I will dance on your grave with the one who buried you. You ain't nothing but a stone. Then my savior rolled away. Set you straight and set me free. Oh death you are dead to me.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back friends. That's oh death by mercy me and it is true. Where death, where is your sting? Grave:Where is your victory? We are talking about overcoming today the first five years in ministry. I'm talking to Father, Son, duo, Son Kyle, Father Joseph. Joseph. I almost want to say Father Abraham when I said that. Not Father Abraham, Father Joseph. The first five, the first five years is what we're talking about. Beating the odds and thriving as a ministry leader. And I want to remind our listeners I had Kyle on before. We talked about his kids book, the Dragon Slayer and his super special suit. So if you are grandparents or parents looking for a good Christmas gift that would make a great one, I encourage you to read it. It, it's so encouraging. So Joseph, let's go back to you. We were right in the middle of talking about feeling like you're the last prophet left. And so I want to give it back to you and let you finish and give some words of encouragement.
Joseph Worley Yeah, I think that's the sense that you can have in ministry sometimes like you're it and, and if, if you don't execute or you know, it's not going to happen and you feel this overwhelming pressure that you have to perform. But I think Kyle really hit the nail on the head earlier is that ministry isn't a performance. It's, it's highly relational. Beginning with our relationship with Christ and, and becoming who God wants us to be. It really has nothing to do. Well, it's not first about ministry. It's first about your heart, the condition of where you are. It's relational. It's. It's born out of relationship with the Lord and, and where the strengthening of your heart occurs, then your home becomes the next place of the effect of that, that. And then from that you have a ministry. That's why I think the encouragement, Paul, to Timothy, is to make sure that you're able to manage your own household well. But when we get well beyond our skis on this, we start thinking it's coming to an end. This is it. I'm the only one left. Nobody here in our church loves Jesus. You know, you come under the critical eye of someone who, who feels the need to, you know, to, to bring extra sanctification into your life. You know, so, you can be overwhelming, but. But there's great joy in ministry. And, I am so grateful for all the years of ministry and. And grateful that whatever I've been able to do, I hope to have been an example to my son. It wasn't really first to give him an example of ministry. It was about making sure he carried the baton of faith, of generational faith. That's the most important thing to me, me as a. As a father, is to make sure if that happens, God will take care of all the rest.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I think you have done that very, very well. And it's so encouraging just to even hear you guys talk with each other and to hear your relationship like that. It's. It's really encouraging to hear.
Kyle Urges Leaders And Congregations To See One Another Humanely
And Kyle, I want to, I want to ask you about encouraging the ministers in our lives because, you know, I have talked a lot about consumer culture and that really, that church is not immune to that and feeling like. And we use that. We. We would not say that intentionally. We would not say, oh, yes, I'm a consumer. Church has to please me. But we would say like, oh, that. That music doesn't serve me. Oh, that. That pastor doesn't suit me. Oh, that. You know, we. We kind of have this consumer culture, and we forget that these are very real humans, fallible humans, like imperfect humans who are working to lead. What are ways that people who are going to church can see the ministers that. As the humans that they are and encourage them at their point of need?
Kyle Worley You know, that's a really good question. Like, I want to say something for ministry leaders, and then for those who are like, under the leadership of ministry leaders, which I'm sure is like a, large portion of your audience. For ministry leaders, we have to. We have to be willing to be vulnerable enough to show that were people and to show that we have to be close enough for them to see it first. Peter 5 says to the pastors, to the elders in particular, shepherd, the flock of God that is among you, there. There has to be a kind of proximity sometimes. Ministry leaders like to build a lot of insulation between them and the people. And I would just say, don't expect the people of God to see you as a person if they only ever see you on the platform. If that's all they ever see you, well, then, yeah, guess what? To them you are a performer because that's your conduct among them. I've had the benefit with my father, with Pastor Steve Hardin, with other pastoral leaders that I have seen and learned from to See them among the sheep. And it's not a surprise for sheep to see them as people because they're right up close to them. They see both their strengths and their weaknesses. So that's for leaders. For those underleaders, I would just remind you, pastors are people. Ministry leaders are people. They spill coffee on themselves. They have arguments with their spouse. They, they, they yell in traffic, hopefully
Dr. Jessica Peck shocking.
Kyle Worley Hopefully, hopefully not often. They stuck. They, they stub their toe in the middle of the night. They, they have fevers and headaches. And then they show up on Sunday and they're trying to get the kids volunteers coffee. They're trying to get a sermon finished. They're trying to make sure the guitar is in tune. They're trying to make sure there's enough, you know, know Bible study curriculum for the classes. And, and they're carrying similar burdens as you. Jessica. You were talking about, caretaking work, workers and social workers, nurses and doctors. I think one of the things that's just important for all of us to remember in a dehumanizing age is how prone we are to dehumanize people that are not having the same exact experience we are. That is just a cultural atmosphere that we're in. And the Christian community has a responsibility of ministers to those underneath their leadership and as those under leadership to their ministers to remember we are all people here. We are image bearers of God. And like C.S. lewis said, you have never met a mere mortal. You have only met immortals. And they are fractured in their image bearing state, but they're worthy of dignity and respect. And so pastors are people, pastors are people, ministry leaders are people. And so are the people that are receiving that ministry. Let us treat one another for what we are, which is imagery bearers of God.
Prayer And Handwritten Notes Offer Practical Minister Encouragement
Dr. Jessica Peck So what are some practical ways that you could do that, Kyle? What does it look like on a Sunday or Wednesday or a, ah, Tuesday in between?
Kyle Worley Nothing is better than prayer. Nothing. Full stop. Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. Pray in private, pray in public, and then let your leaders know you're praying for them. And be as specific as you can be and don't use it as a passive aggressive tool. I'm praying specifically that you, you'll experience delight in Jesus. Today I'm praying specifically a prayer of thanksgiving for your preaching. I'm praying specifically a, prayer that the Lord would supply more volunteers for your ministry. I heard the announcement. This past week I'm already serving another ministry, but today I'm taking time to pray for that need. I'M going to ask, I'm going to talk to a couple of people that I know who've been looking for a place to serve. As well. Be as specific as you can in prayer. Write them encouraging handwritten notes. I know that email is easy. I know that text message are easy. When I get a handwritten note, I keep it in a box on my desk. I tell other young ministry leaders to do it. And I'm having a day when I'm like, you know what? My labor is in vain. I will take one of those notes out of the box. I'll read it to myself. I'll, thank God for the person who wrote it. I'll pray for them and I'll try to remember, you know what? I can't measure this in moments. I've got to measure this in longer chunks of time. The Lord is doing work here. I just may not see it in the immediate. I would just say those would be simple things.
Dr. Jessica Peck I mean that's something that everybody listening can do. Ah, from children all the way to the elder, the seniors, you can pray for your ministry leaders. You can write them an encouraging note. And I think you're right, Kyle. We overlook the power of those gestures. And I think that is just such the hope of the gospel. Because a society becomes more complicated, we think that the answer have to become more complicated. But they're blessedly simple. And I think that is the grace of the gospel. We have everything that we need in God's word to instruct us. And I am so grateful for that for sure.
Joseph Describes Spiritual Relational And Physical Self-Care
And you know, Pastor Joseph, I want to come to you and ask you about ways that you can care for yourself. You've been in ministry now for four ish decades plus a, give or take a little there care. What are the things that you need to do to take care of yourself? Because sometimes it can be easy to put everyone's needs before yourself. What are some simple habits or rhythms or, or just practices that you would have to do that?
Joseph Worley I think spiritually we would, we immediately would gravitate toward the disciplines, the spiritual disciplines. Beginning prayer being one of the foundational, spiritual disciplines. Disciplines, times of silence, a pause, the, the sila, moments that we find, the, the really those holy pauses that God designs for us, if we'll take them. times of contemplation, silence. I'm sounding like a mystic, but I'm really not. I just think that these are disciplines that are, they're essential on emotional level. I think that, making sure that we have Healthy relationships beginning in our home, but then friendships. again, my generation, less likely to be vulnerable in those moments. you know, could serve ministry and not really have, a lot of people. and that's probably been a struggle of mine. I consider myself to be a friend to all. But on, on a really, really personal level, I have to really reach back to someone that I knew back in high school and college and, and I have that relationship today. But, but they're not in my congregation. in, in our church. On a physical level, I think just taking care of your health, I mean, should I give this talk or you. I mean, basically around just taking care of yourself, what you eat, your exercise. I, had a heart attack in 2016, and my son. That was the same year that our firstborn grandchild came into the world. And he said, dad, you need to take care of yourself if you want to be here to experience that. Not spot, you know something. I want to experience that. And so I started doing some things, walking, jogging, running, and probably going crazy on the running and weightlifting. I, I crossfit today at, you know, five in the morning. And so, you know, I think physically taking control of your life in a way that helps complement those other areas,
Dr. Jessica Peck you know, I think that is so true whether you're a pastor, whether you're a nurse, whether you're just a human being being for sure. Especially for parents, we do need to take care of ourselves because other people that we're serving, they get, they get comfort and knowing that we're taking care of ourselves now, obviously the unexpected can happen, and sometimes those things can happen to be. See, I care enough about you that I'm caring for myself. I want to be the healthiest, strongest person that I can be physically, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, to be able to serve you. I, I think you guys have just modeled such a beautiful father son relationship and a ministry partnership. Kyle, I would love to know what you hope will come of this book. Who are the, when you look out at the ministers who might read it, the lay leaders, the pastors, the. The parents who will read it and think about leading in their own homes, administering in their own homes. What do you hope that the Lord will do from this work that you and your father have done together?
Kyle Worley I hope that seasoned leaders, whether they're vocational or volunteer, will read the book and they'll use it as a resource to coach up, develop and mentor emerging leaders. And I pray that emerging leaders will read it and they'll be able to Avoid some very, very obvious icebergs and pitfalls on the journey to a healthy and sustainable ministry to serve Christ Church over the long call. That's my hope.
Dr. Jessica Peck Oh, I mean, that's a great hope to have. Joseph, let me ask you, as you were writing the book with Kyle, what did you learn about him? What did you observe about him and his ministry that maybe you hadn't seen clearly before? What do you see as his strengths in contributing to this work that you did together?
Joseph Worley You know what I've realized? You said earlier that he was following in my footsteps. That I've told my wife often in our conversations, in the writing and discovery and as I dialogue with him and in. In these podcasts and so forth. I said it. Maybe he followed in my footsteps, but, in many ways, I feel like I'm following in his footsteps right now, and I'm really blessed by that. He. I don't think I've ever really just said this to him, but I really learned from him a lot. A lot, lot. And I'm so grateful that I have a son that I'm learning from. And because his bandwidth is. If you visit with him, you know, his bandwidth is incredible. And it's like, whoa, okay, so I really feel like I'm walking in his footsteps.
Dr. Jessica Peck Kyle, you want to respond to that?
Kyle Worley That's. There's more humility than honesty in that statement, Jessica. But it's a mark of his character, so we'll let it stand. M.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I absolutely love it. I'm so grateful for. For you guys and for the work that you have done. You know, when we look at what you want leaders to do, what this book is going to help you do, learn the biblical principles of a call to ministry, those early years of ministry leadership. So if you have a. A new minister who's just starting out, this would be a great gift to give them and. And to know that they're not alone. Known that the challenges that they face are challenges that ministers who have walked before them have faced and have been faithfully mentored and have stayed and have learned how to be resilient. It talks in the book about some healthy personal, physical, emotional, and spiritual rhythms like we just talked about. Here you can discover basic principles for professional and pastoral communication and some practical advice. Now, I know there's probably not very many pastors out there who may have gotten an angry email, but just in case you are one of the outliers, this might help you to respond if, you know, you didn't pick the right hymnal. Color, but also I. I have seen that fight before in a church. How to build effective teams, how to organize your first funeral service, and many other intensely practical questions for new leaders. It's intended to be a manual for new ministry leaders and those leading them. And they said in here, don't just read this book, use it. Kyle and Joseph, I'm so grateful to both of you for everything that you have done. We'll give a shout out to Pastor Steve. I know you gave him a shout out, Kyle, one of your mentors who was listening. And we thank you for everything that you're doing. If you're a pastor, a ministry leader, whoever you are, whatever you're doing, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face shine upon you. And I'll see you here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and has seen over 100,000 commitments to Christ. Will you join PreBorn in continuing this good work? supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR
Jeff Chamblee the views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
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hello and welcome to the Dr. Nurse Mama show prescribing hope for healthy families here on American Family Radio. Here's your host, professor, pediatric nurse practitioner and mom of four, Dr. Jessica Peck.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well hey there friends and welcome to my favorite time of day. I hope you're having a great day, whatever you're doing, wherever you're going. As we're starting to enter the holiday rush, one thing I want you to think about before Thanksgiving. Yes, even those of you who don't put your tree up until after the turkey is carved and put away into leftovers. This is something you need to do now. I'M reminding you about opera Christmas child. You can pack your shoe boxes now to send Christmas gifts to a child around the world. My producer Stephanie had a big packing party on Sunday. We have so many boxes that are ready to go. There is a suggested ten dollar donation for each box to help pay for shipping. But when you register you get to see where it goes. And so you can go to samaritanspurse.org/occ that's samaritanspurse.org/occ you'll see all the things about what to pack, where to take, where's the drop off, when do you have to do it? And that date is coming up really quickly. The Collection week is November 16th through the 23rd. And be listening in because we're going to do as we do every year, interview a recipient of an Operation Christmas child shoebox. And I always have to get the tissue box along with the shoebox because such beautiful stories of God's love that goes around the world. And we want to show love to those children all around the world. We also want to show love to the kids in our own lives, especially our own kids. You can love your kids with everything that you have. You can give them all of your best and still feel overwhelmed by just the amount of sheer need that they have and what they need from you. And you can believe deeply in your calling as a parent, as a minister as well, and just wake up wondering, where am I going to find the strength to give for another day? Now I know especially how much parents are caring. I know how much people are ministering and ministry can carry. There are the visible responsibilities, the work, the meals, the appointments that all of the, the scheduling, the meetings, the food that everybody needs, all of those logistics. But there's also the things that go beneath the surface and we think about the kids were maybe worried about what's going on there. Am I, I'm lean in. Am m I doing everything that I can? Is my ministry really making a difference? You keep replaying a conversation in your mind. You keep asking yourself questions. Am I doing enough to prepare them for a world that just feels increasingly complicated? And we're praying for the people we're serving. We're showing up for them. And sometimes by the end of the day, the people you love the most at home received the smallest portion of your patients. Now for parental exhaustion, especially research put some numbers on on that. Parental burnout is something that has been increasingly studied since COVID parents just feeling really tired. And one survey among working parents, this was Over a thousand working parents, 65% said, yeah, we feel burned out. And that reflects, I think, the pulse of what families are feeling. And a separate international study found the same, that, yeah, parents are feeling that, and we know that ministers, pastors are feeling that, too. This is a really difficult time to step into ministry where the public is so polarized and everything seems so complicated. And, my guests today are going to step right into the middle of that messiness, and I'm so excited about it. We have today father and son duo. How amazing is that? Who wrote a book called the First Five Beating the Odds and Thriving as a Ministry Leader. If you have m, if you're a minister, if you have lay leaders in your church, this is such a helpful field guide. It is really a survival resource. I think that will help. But everything that we're talking about today, I really want you to think about leading and ministering inside your home as well. Because as I was reading this, I thought, yeah, this is everything that we're feeling. No matter where you're ministering, if you are a pastor in the pulpit, if you are a lunch lady who's ministering to kids in the lunch line, if you are a bus driver, if you are a mom, if you are a dad, everybody is ministering to somebody, and we can be exhausted. How so the question today is, how do we care? He. We just keep on caring deeply without feeling like we're completely depleted. How do we stay present to those people God has entrusted to us? So the father, son, today I have it back. Is son. We'll start with the son, which who is Kyle Worley. You may recognize him. We had a great conversation back earlier in the spring about his children's book, the Dragon Slayer, and his super suit. I have it right here on my desk. It is such a cheerful, encouraging message. He is a pastor, a teacher, a host of the Knowing Faith podcast. I know a lot of you listen to that, too. He's a teacher in Lifeways Deep Discipleship program. And his father, who is also Joining us today, Dr. Joseph Worley, has served in pastoral leadership for more than 40 years. So they're bringing more than 60 years of ministry experience together to this book. The first five Beating the Odds and Thriving as a ministry leader. And I am really excited to dive into their relationship because it really gives a meaningful perspective. Perspective because Kyle spent his first three years in ministry serving under his dad's leadership. So we're just going to dive right in. Kyle and Joseph, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so grateful to each of you for your work and for your presence here and sharing that work with us today. I'm really glad to be here. Thanks for having us.
Joseph Describes Building A Christian Home And Faith Legacy
Dr. Jessica Peck All right, well, I want to start at the beginning. And so, dad, I'm going to start with you. Joseph. We'll start with you. We had Kyle on, and he's already given us a little spoiler of what his childhood was like. And. And I'll give you a spoiler. It was all good. He had nothing but good things to say about you guys. But looking at this generational legacy, I want to start with yours. How did you come to know the Lord, and how did he call you into ministry?
Joseph Worley Well, I really wasn't raised in a Christian home as such as we would define a disciple making Christian home for sure. And, but after I came to. To faith in Christ, one of the things that I noticed were the families in my life, outside of my immediate family, noticing how they raised their children. And I thought, you know, when I grow up, when I, have my own family, I, I want to have something like that. I, I want to have a home where my kids know that I love them, I'm present with them, and that I'm teaching them about the Lord. and so that was very aspirational for me at the time. But when my wife and I met, we were on the same page. And. And she came from a Christian home. And. And we, you know, initiated from the very beginning of our relationship to make sure that our home was that safe haven. It was that place where, ultimately where the heart could be cultivated and the home could be strengthened. so that was before we ever had children. but as we began to have children, can. Kyle being our firstborn, and the test project. Right. So
Dr. Jessica Peck the guinea pig.
Joseph Worley The guinea pig. but we had some good examples early on in our. In our, marriage of people who were attempting to do discipleship well, in their home. Some of it was very structured, some of it was not. We took probably less than a structured, approach in our home. I mean, it was intentional. Every day we engaged our children, you know, spiritually and, whether in prayer, before school, at the end of the day, reading, you know, the scriptures and talking about that with them. So, we didn't march them in with little suits and ties and have formal gatherings of that kind. But. But it was very intentional. I don't know how far you want me to go with this, but it, it began very aspirational for me. Is that this is the kind of home I wanted, but I didn't really have a lot to look at to say, this is what you do.
Dr. Jessica Peck That is. That is a really encouraging thing to me, Joseph, because you're really presenting two different circumstances. You did not grow up in a Christian home. You created and nurtured a Christian home to raise your son. And that's encouraging to people who come from both of those places, you know, whether they come m from a heritage of faith or whether they are starting their own heritage of faith. How did you get called into the ministry, Joseph?
Joseph Worley I was. It was in my, junior year college. I was in University of Texas in Arlington and was finishing a business degree, had become very involved in college ministry and really was just in, in a worship service and sensed, a deep, abiding call that, okay, I think this is what God's calling me to do. Now. There were a lot of nurturing things, that were happening that, that they figured into the calculus, I think, in terms of, I'd begin to grow in my, my spiritual walk, reading of scripture, serving in various capacities in what was called student ministry here in Texas, Baptist student ministry particularly. And, through leadership roles and things like this. The waters had been tested. So I think there was a cultivation that was going on before I really understood it. So that when I did actually sense that impression from the Lord, I knew, okay, this is what the Lord's calling me to do. I was also a track, a pole vaulter in college. And so I went to my track coach and said, coach, I'm done. He said, well, what's up? I said, well, I feel like the Lord's calling me the ministry. And, I had to explain to him what that looked like. Okay, you're quitting. You're. What are you doing? And are you going to quit school? I said, no, I'm not quitting school. I finished a business degree, but I went on to do biblical studies education, in response to that calling.
Dr. Jessica Peck I love that unlikely story. I mean, really not raised in a Christian home business major, pole vaulter turned pastor like that is. That is a really good start.
Kyle Shares His Early Calling And Lessons From His Father
And Kyle, let's go to you from one guinea pig to another, because I am also the oldest and a fellow guinea pig there. You've already shared a lot previously when you were on. You've shared just your admiration for your parents and how much they poured into you and how they read to you from an early age, the classics, and they read to you great works of Great. religious works and literature works and of course, the word of God. I would, you can say anything that you want to say, you know, about your childhood. But I would also love to know about how you were called into the ministry and how you started ministry working under your dad's tutelage.
Kyle Worley Yeah. The only other thing I would add to just kind of the family history is, if you're listening to this and you're wondering, like, man, how, like, I didn't come from a place of faith. I don't really have a heritage of faith. Like, every heritage of faith in the broken world starts with somebody who is a cycle breaker. That's how every inheritance of faith begins. In a broken world, there is not one that is untainted by sin. There are just men and women who say, you know what? I'm going to pursue the fear of the Lord. My home is going to be marked by the fear of the Lord, and that begins now. Even if I have, nothing behind me, the Lord can redeem the future in a powerful way. So I would just encourage you in that. As far as a call to ministry. I experienced a call to ministry in late middle school. I was not pole vaulting at the time. If you, if it. This is an audio format, but if you took two looks at me, you wouldn't think that I was in danger of pole vaulting. I'm not built like a pole vaulter. So I was not pole vaulting when the Lord called me into ministry. I was just, I was in late middle school, early high school. And, you, know, it was really cool and encouraging because my father was so sober minded about kind of responding to that call. There wasn't any sort of like, like lighter fluid that they poured on that. I remember one of the first things he told me. A call to ministry is a call to be a student of God's word. And so if you really feel called to ministry, the first place we'll begin is by studying God's word in a more concerted way. So let's start there. And that has really served me my entire ministry. and so I'm tremendously grateful for that. But, yeah, I was just in late middle school, early high school. I had prepared Jessica, I had prepared a career day presentation project on being orthopedic surgeon. I prepared. And, and, and I, just in the moments before I was supposed to give that presentation, sitting in my classroom, I felt something that was less than an audible voice, more than an impression. Tell me you're not going to be an orthopedic surgeon. You're going to be a pastor. And so I got up and told my class, guys, I don't know what to tell you. I prepared this presentation, but the Lord has just told me that I'm not going to be an orthopedic surgeon. I'm going to be a pastor. And I'll tell you this, Jessica, your classmates in eighth grade, they never, ever forget that moment. that, that definitely reverberated through the rest of my high school. And maybe the Lord used it to keep me from a lot of foolishness in high school.
Dr. Jessica Peck Oh, my goodness. I, I love that so much, man. We have so much in common. Kyle. Also not a pole vaulter. I, I've shared on the sports series that we've been doing with, Brian Uszynski and Ed Smith. Yes, I always get, I always try to mix their names up, but we're doing a sports series and I said that, you know, when I was in middle school, I was made the permanent scorekeeper because they were worried about my self esteem because I was always picked last. So clearly their, their efforts worked because I ended up okay. But when we come back, we coming up against our first break, I want to dive into this book and really what I want to first talk about is what happens in those first five years of ministry that can leave someone who's really sincere, who's well prepared and just questioning, can I keep going? Can I keep on doing this? And you know, I think it's going to be great to get both of your perspectives because, Joseph, you know, you're decking decades in now. Kyle, you're following the footsteps of your father. You're seeing with different eyes some of the new challenges that are emerging for pastors. And if you have a pastor you love that, you just think, oh, they, they just teach the word of God. And I just love him and their family. Tell them, tell that pastor today. Tell them how much you appreciate them. It doesn't matter if October's gone and it's not Pastor Appreciation Month anymore. They need some encouragement. We'll be right back with Kyle and Joseph Worley. Don't go away. Hello, I'm Jessica peck, host of Dr. Nurse Mama. did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by, visiting afr.net/give that's afr.net/give
Live Out Loud by Steven Curtis Chapman Imagine this. I get a phone call from Regis. He says, do you want to be a millionaire? They put me on the show and I went with two lifelines to spare. And I picture this, I act like nothing ever happened and bury all the money in a coffee can. Well, I've been given more than Regis ever gave away. I was a dead man who was called to come out of my grave. I think it's time for making some noise. Wake the neighbor, get the word out. Come on. Crank out the music by the mountain.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back, friends. That's Live Out Loud by Steven Curtis Chapman. And what we're talking about today. How do we live our faith out loud without really becoming burned out? I'm talking to father and son today. Kyle Worley, Dr. Joseph Worley. Kyle is the son. Joseph is the father. They are a father, son duo in ministry. And they've written a book called the First Five. Beating the Odds and Thriving as a Ministry Leader. And they've just shared their personal family testimony. Joseph not growing up in a Christian home, but coming to know the Lord and being called into m ministry and really wanting to create, being a cycle breaker, as his son says, and creating a generational legacy of faith which his son Kyle is living out in his walk as a pastor, an author, a podcaster. And Kyle, I want to go back to you, first here in this next segment because the subtitle of this book is Beating the Odds and Thriving as a Ministry Leader. That's kind of sobering because the odds are you're going to get burnout. What did you guys see happening from your own experience and from your preparation and writing this book? What happens in those first five years of ministry that leaves someone who enters optimistic, bright eyed, you know, with just full of hope? What makes them question whether they can keep going? What happens in those first five years?
Kyle Worley Well, you know, and I actually think this is a really important question both for those listeners who are ministry leaders, either vocational or volunteer, and those who are just faithful participants in the life of ministry organizations or churches, because the illiteracy here is on both sides. a lot of ministry leaders do not receive a lot of intentional development in those first five years. Now, some of your listeners might be thinking, well, that's kind of obvious to me because it seems very clear they don't know what they're doing, right? Like, they might be in churches or they might be in organizations and be thinking, God bless their heart. You know, you might have listeners who are thinking, I see There's a lot of good intentions here. It just seems like the execution and the follow through isn't very wise and prudent. Well, with emerging ministry leaders, that's often because there's not a lot of intentional development for them. What happens, Jessica, is you have weary ministry leaders who are overtaxed and burdened. Typically, they're aging in leadership. And then you have emerging ministry leaders. And these emerging ministry leaders, they're fresh energy, fresh zeal. And these more seasoned ministry leaders, they're tired and weary, and so they don't have a lot of time to give to development. And the people that are coming in to help them need a lot of development. And so this intersection is a pretty crucial one. The data tells us that most, vocational ministry leaders, particularly senior leaders, now are over the age of 60. And at the same time, most emerging ministry leaders are not making it past five years of ministry leadership. Well, that's a coming cliff, because this means that a lot of your most seasoned ministry leaders are about to age out of service, and a lot of emerging ministry leaders are not making it deep enough into leadership to be able to glean from their own experience. And so we have a development crisis. So the book has really been written to try to encourage and equip ministry leaders, both those who are vocational and volunteer and those people who participate in ministries, to just be faithful, to have some very basic principles and practices that, whether they're ministering at home or in the life of their church or in a nonprofit, whether as a volunteer servant or as a patient paid leader, we think there are some transferable principles and practices that are helpful for any leaders in any capacity, in any environment.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I really relate to what you're saying, Kyle. And you know, some people may think, oh, that's a bridge too far. But I see so many parallels between ministry and the profession of nursing. My own profession, because it's a caring profession, we have a lot of burnout since COVID because we just had such an overwhelming of need. People were sick physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and there was a lot of need. And we just see this burnout happening in the profession. And, and what you were describing, Kyle, I call that, well, in well intentioned but ill equipped, like they. Yeah, that's a great
Kyle Worley way to say
Dr. Jessica Peck it. Yeah, they want to do such a good job, but they're just not equipped for the challenges that they're going to have and not equipped to care for themselves either. I see a lot of that too, because, you know, it's Just like, oh, I got to be there for everybody else. And as nurses were running around making sure everybody's well hydrated and nourished and well rested, and we're dehydrated, malnourished and exhausted. And ministry leaders are the same thing. Feeding other people's souls without stopping to feed their own. So I see. I see this, and I feel this really deeply.
Joseph Advocates Mentorship That Develops Skill Without Dimming Zeal
And Joseph, let's go to you with this, because I think there's a special perspective that you have here. You know, having been seasoned in ministry, having been on the other end of that spectrum that Kyle was talking about, having walked through some things and having some balanced perspective, it's probably so exciting for you to see your son coming into the ministry. But you also know very, very well the challenges that are ahead of him, and you don't want to bombard him and say, oh, well, let me just tell you in advance all the things that are going to be terrible and hard. How do you balance that? What. What were the challenges that, you know, you. You wanted him to understand but before he had even experienced it? How do you balance that? Like preparing them but also not scaring them off.
Joseph Worley Exactly. Yeah. You want to affirm their aspiration for ministry. the problem is that in. In one of the problems, one of the challenges, I guess we would say, is that there is a great deal of zeal initially and a level of idealism that you really want. You don't want to. You don't want to cool. There's their zeal. You want that to occur. but there's a lack of knowledge, or better yet, wisdom, you know, of skillful development and dependency, dependence, upon the Lord and dependence upon mentors and, those who are seasoned. I mean, again, you're in the nursing field, so, you know, in the medical field. So, you know, they can have all the. The brightness and knowledge and capacity, show promise. But then there's the. The practicum. There's the actual doing of the work that has to be done. And. And until you do it, you really don't know. I mean, it's textbook. It's. It's, It's a matter of. Of knowledge. I think I know that, but I've never really done it. for instance, early on in my ministry, my first pastoral ministry, I had taken pastoral ministry, but I had never done a funeral before. I mean, as basic as that sounds, I'd only attended two funerals. So when I was asked to do the first funeral, I was grateful when that, church, member Said, look, would it be okay if we ask our former pastor to come back? And inside it was like, hallelujah. Y. I am so grateful, you know, on the outside, you know, I just tried to, you know, remain modest. Well, sure, that. That would be okay, but I was so grateful. And then I watched him. I just watched everything he did. And almost 500 funerals later, I. I pretty much do funerals like I did when I first watched it. And so the problem isn't the zeal. I mean, the challenge is, Is. Is the. The zeal without the skill. Okay, but you don't want to throw water on that. You want to. You want to identify that. Allow the idealism of those who are young in ministry to emerge, but give them direction, parameter, help, them develop the personal life, their shepherding life, and ultimately some of the professional skills necessary to be successful.
Dr. Jessica Peck Yes. I want to come back to that in just a minute, that self care. But, Kyle, let me ask you first. One of the things that we saw that happened after Covid. I know I keep saying that word. Everybody wants to move on, but the truth is it changed the church and it changed ministry because so many ministries went online, and it's like it just kind of pulled the curtain back on what everybody was doing and what, you know, everybody was happy with. You start having this comparison. Oh, they have this program. Oh, they use this technology. Oh, their worship band sounds like this. Oh, this pastor, you know, he uses this visual aid. And then all of a sudden we have, you know, metrics are important, outcomes are important, but we have this pressure of how do you know if you're doing a good job? How do you know if your ministry is effective? Especially in those, those early years where you may not have had time for a lot of fruit to grow, you may not have had that benefit of life experience, and you're getting pressure, maybe even from your church team. Like, we haven't had this many baptisms or, you know, this many attendance or those kinds of things. How do we balance that? How can a minister know and find reassurance and the effectiveness of their ministry outside of numbers and outcomes and productivity and programs?
Kyle Worley I think it really begins with identity and calling. And this is two areas where we see ministry leaders, seasoned and emerging, vocational and volunteer, get a lot of confusion kind of in their system. The first is identity. You know, the way that we measure identity is not by what we do, but by God. God, but by who God says we are. This is fundamental in scripture. Notice that Jesus Christ at his baptism before he has healed the sick, taught the greatest sermon ever preached, died on the cross, rose from the dead. The the Father pronounces over the Son, this is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased. Jesus Christ is beloved before his public ministry even begins. We operate as children of God before we operate as servants of the Lord. And the moment we forget this is the moment, moment that we are bound to fall into comparison. Envy and resentment. That's square one. That's identity. The second component is calling. And by calling, I don't necessarily mean the moment where you feel called to ministry, but really what role is God calling you to play in the church? We have a lot of ministry leaders whose comparison is looking at what God has called somebody else to undertake and thinking, why not me? Well, God entrusts the portion that he has for people in accordance with his good purposes, not our own preferences. And it's clear throughout Scripture that often those who are accorded great power are also put under great persecution. You never really can tell what somebody who has maybe a platform or a, kind of a ministry that has recognition is enduring. As far as spiritual opposition goes, be very cautious that you do not envy somebody's platform, only to forget the persecution and opposition they're experiencing. Oftentimes the two go hand in hand. We see one, we do not see or feel the other. But more than that, Jessica, is really asking the question, is God calling me to serve in this church as a member, as a deacon or minister or elder or pastor? You know, we've really, in a world of job specialization and careerism and ministry, we've really forgotten there only really a fundamental three ways to serve in the life of the church. A member, a deacon, and an elder. And they look a lot of, they can show up in a lot of different ways in a lot of different churches. But those are the three offices of the church. We've all been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation. All of the gifts are necessary and needed. They play themselves out in these three offices. And it's okay for God to entrust different ministry applications or niches to different people at different time. That's totally appropriate. One body, many members isn't just true for every local church. It's true for all of the churches bound up together in Christ.
Dr. Jessica Peck Such wise words, Kyle. And I'm so glad that you brought up that, that uncomfortable thing about persecution, because that is really real and, and really in a very strong way that strengthens my faith. Because if I'm look at people looking at people who are following the Lord with all of their heart and they are really just so pure in their intentions. And just to see them encounter things that seem so unfair in a way, to see them, why, why would that happen? Why? just. But to see them specifically targeted out, you think there's got to be something to that. And, and we should not take that lightly, that spiritual warfare is a, Is definitely a real thing. And I would just remind our listeners to pray for their pastors, for their deacons, for their elders, for their ministry leaders, pray for them. Because we also know that, that God, you know, the prayer of a righteous man, availeth much. And I'm going back to my old school roots there, but that is really important to do. Joseph, let me ask you in, in light of all that Kyle said, there's a, there's a point, there's a season where you start to feel discouraged, you start to feel some self doubt, you start to think maybe, maybe you doubt your calling, maybe you doubt where you are, maybe you doubt your ability to fulfill God's calling. What happens when you first start feeling that? And how should a minister respond to that? Because I think a lot of them, they're. It's hard to be transparent about that. And they tend just to stuff it down until it can't, it can't be contained any longer. What should they do instead?
Joseph Worley Well, hopefully you have some trusted mentors. that's one of the things I would go back and in change in the earliest years. You know, I'm from a generation where that's what you do. You just sort of stuff it down in there and hopefully nobody sees it, you know, oozing out somewhere. And so, you know, being vulnerable with someone is very important, particularly another minister, someone that you can share your life with, apart your struggles and challenges. And having a mentor relationship could be extremely helpful, along with, you know, just developing the spiritual disciplines and cultivating your own, your own spiritual life, your prayer life and those things. On a practical level, for me, I have, I have often stood before the people since I'm a senior pastor. but in whatever capacity someone might be, they could do something similar. And just before I speak, there's just a pause and I. And you know how your life sort of flashes before you. I think about the moment in which the Lord really began to work in my life as a teenager. And I remember before I knew all these people, before I knew my wife, before I had our fam. You know, we had our family, it was me and Jesus on that little Yamaha 100 motorcycle in Central Texas, you know, And I thought, you know, Jesus, Jesus, you got it started. And, you know, I'm not giving you a ride down the street. You're the one. You're the one who's carrying me. And I just really paused and said, lord, thank you. Thank you. I. I never imagined you would do much of anything with my life. I don't think I ever contemplated that. But thank you for what you've done. And there have been some really hard times in ministry, times that I felt like. That I felt like there were worse things than death experiences. and it. And it's been moments like that, simple moments just to go back and say, lord, you call me to this. This is. This is not something that I conjured up. I had no framework for this to begin with. And I'm grateful that you call me. There's great joy in it. Remind me of the joy. Remind me of the things that you call me to. because the hardships are there, but, you know, they're there for everybody and whatever job they have. But, sometimes you can fill in ministry like I am the only prophet left,
Dr. Jessica Peck but that is not true. You know, I'm going to hold you right there, Joseph, because you are not the only prophet left. If you're listening and feeling discouraged, come back right after the break. So much more encouragement with Kyle and Joseph Worley. We'll be right back.
Joseph Says Ministry Flows From Relationship And Faithfulness
Buddy Smith Jeff Chamblee We live in a day when America's families are under attack like never before. Buddy Smith, senior vice president of the American Family Association. The war against biblical principles rages on numerous fronts. The Internet, Hollywood, Washington, D.C. america's corporate boardrooms, and the list goes on. At American Family association, we're committed to standing against the enemies of God, the enemies of your family, and we recognize an impossible task without God's favor and your partnership. Thank you for being faithful to pray for this ministry, to give financially and to respond to our calls for activism. What you do on the home front is crucial to what we do on the battlefront. We praise God for your faithfulness and may he give us many victories in the battles ahead as we work together to restore our nation's biblical foundations.
Oh Death by MercyMe You said my fate was sealed. You said my days were numbered. case closed with no appeal. My future six feet under messing with my head in ghost fashion My heart was holding it breath terrified of taking my last one oh, death, you scared me to death. Whoa, you ain't my king bro. Whoa. Where did your sting go? Dance I Will not be afraid in the end you will lose. I will dance on your grave with the one who buried you. You ain't nothing but a stone. Then my savior rolled away. Set you straight and set me free. Oh death you are dead to me.
Dr. Jessica Peck Welcome back friends. That's oh death by mercy me and it is true. Where death, where is your sting? Grave:Where is your victory? We are talking about overcoming today the first five years in ministry. I'm talking to Father, Son, duo, Son Kyle, Father Joseph. Joseph. I almost want to say Father Abraham when I said that. Not Father Abraham, Father Joseph. The first five, the first five years is what we're talking about. Beating the odds and thriving as a ministry leader. And I want to remind our listeners I had Kyle on before. We talked about his kids book, the Dragon Slayer and his super special suit. So if you are grandparents or parents looking for a good Christmas gift that would make a great one, I encourage you to read it. It, it's so encouraging. So Joseph, let's go back to you. We were right in the middle of talking about feeling like you're the last prophet left. And so I want to give it back to you and let you finish and give some words of encouragement.
Joseph Worley Yeah, I think that's the sense that you can have in ministry sometimes like you're it and, and if, if you don't execute or you know, it's not going to happen and you feel this overwhelming pressure that you have to perform. But I think Kyle really hit the nail on the head earlier is that ministry isn't a performance. It's, it's highly relational. Beginning with our relationship with Christ and, and becoming who God wants us to be. It really has nothing to do. Well, it's not first about ministry. It's first about your heart, the condition of where you are. It's relational. It's. It's born out of relationship with the Lord and, and where the strengthening of your heart occurs, then your home becomes the next place of the effect of that, that. And then from that you have a ministry. That's why I think the encouragement, Paul, to Timothy, is to make sure that you're able to manage your own household well. But when we get well beyond our skis on this, we start thinking it's coming to an end. This is it. I'm the only one left. Nobody here in our church loves Jesus. You know, you come under the critical eye of someone who, who feels the need to, you know, to, to bring extra sanctification into your life. You know, so, you can be overwhelming, but. But there's great joy in ministry. And, I am so grateful for all the years of ministry and. And grateful that whatever I've been able to do, I hope to have been an example to my son. It wasn't really first to give him an example of ministry. It was about making sure he carried the baton of faith, of generational faith. That's the most important thing to me, me as a. As a father, is to make sure if that happens, God will take care of all the rest.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I think you have done that very, very well. And it's so encouraging just to even hear you guys talk with each other and to hear your relationship like that. It's. It's really encouraging to hear.
Kyle Urges Leaders And Congregations To See One Another Humanely
And Kyle, I want to, I want to ask you about encouraging the ministers in our lives because, you know, I have talked a lot about consumer culture and that really, that church is not immune to that and feeling like. And we use that. We. We would not say that intentionally. We would not say, oh, yes, I'm a consumer. Church has to please me. But we would say like, oh, that. That music doesn't serve me. Oh, that. That pastor doesn't suit me. Oh, that. You know, we. We kind of have this consumer culture, and we forget that these are very real humans, fallible humans, like imperfect humans who are working to lead. What are ways that people who are going to church can see the ministers that. As the humans that they are and encourage them at their point of need?
Kyle Worley You know, that's a really good question. Like, I want to say something for ministry leaders, and then for those who are like, under the leadership of ministry leaders, which I'm sure is like a, large portion of your audience. For ministry leaders, we have to. We have to be willing to be vulnerable enough to show that were people and to show that we have to be close enough for them to see it first. Peter 5 says to the pastors, to the elders in particular, shepherd, the flock of God that is among you, there. There has to be a kind of proximity sometimes. Ministry leaders like to build a lot of insulation between them and the people. And I would just say, don't expect the people of God to see you as a person if they only ever see you on the platform. If that's all they ever see you, well, then, yeah, guess what? To them you are a performer because that's your conduct among them. I've had the benefit with my father, with Pastor Steve Hardin, with other pastoral leaders that I have seen and learned from to See them among the sheep. And it's not a surprise for sheep to see them as people because they're right up close to them. They see both their strengths and their weaknesses. So that's for leaders. For those underleaders, I would just remind you, pastors are people. Ministry leaders are people. They spill coffee on themselves. They have arguments with their spouse. They, they, they yell in traffic, hopefully
Dr. Jessica Peck shocking.
Kyle Worley Hopefully, hopefully not often. They stuck. They, they stub their toe in the middle of the night. They, they have fevers and headaches. And then they show up on Sunday and they're trying to get the kids volunteers coffee. They're trying to get a sermon finished. They're trying to make sure the guitar is in tune. They're trying to make sure there's enough, you know, know Bible study curriculum for the classes. And, and they're carrying similar burdens as you. Jessica. You were talking about, caretaking work, workers and social workers, nurses and doctors. I think one of the things that's just important for all of us to remember in a dehumanizing age is how prone we are to dehumanize people that are not having the same exact experience we are. That is just a cultural atmosphere that we're in. And the Christian community has a responsibility of ministers to those underneath their leadership and as those under leadership to their ministers to remember we are all people here. We are image bearers of God. And like C.S. lewis said, you have never met a mere mortal. You have only met immortals. And they are fractured in their image bearing state, but they're worthy of dignity and respect. And so pastors are people, pastors are people, ministry leaders are people. And so are the people that are receiving that ministry. Let us treat one another for what we are, which is imagery bearers of God.
Prayer And Handwritten Notes Offer Practical Minister Encouragement
Dr. Jessica Peck So what are some practical ways that you could do that, Kyle? What does it look like on a Sunday or Wednesday or a, ah, Tuesday in between?
Kyle Worley Nothing is better than prayer. Nothing. Full stop. Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray. Pray in private, pray in public, and then let your leaders know you're praying for them. And be as specific as you can be and don't use it as a passive aggressive tool. I'm praying specifically that you, you'll experience delight in Jesus. Today I'm praying specifically a prayer of thanksgiving for your preaching. I'm praying specifically a, prayer that the Lord would supply more volunteers for your ministry. I heard the announcement. This past week I'm already serving another ministry, but today I'm taking time to pray for that need. I'M going to ask, I'm going to talk to a couple of people that I know who've been looking for a place to serve. As well. Be as specific as you can in prayer. Write them encouraging handwritten notes. I know that email is easy. I know that text message are easy. When I get a handwritten note, I keep it in a box on my desk. I tell other young ministry leaders to do it. And I'm having a day when I'm like, you know what? My labor is in vain. I will take one of those notes out of the box. I'll read it to myself. I'll, thank God for the person who wrote it. I'll pray for them and I'll try to remember, you know what? I can't measure this in moments. I've got to measure this in longer chunks of time. The Lord is doing work here. I just may not see it in the immediate. I would just say those would be simple things.
Dr. Jessica Peck I mean that's something that everybody listening can do. Ah, from children all the way to the elder, the seniors, you can pray for your ministry leaders. You can write them an encouraging note. And I think you're right, Kyle. We overlook the power of those gestures. And I think that is just such the hope of the gospel. Because a society becomes more complicated, we think that the answer have to become more complicated. But they're blessedly simple. And I think that is the grace of the gospel. We have everything that we need in God's word to instruct us. And I am so grateful for that for sure.
Joseph Describes Spiritual Relational And Physical Self-Care
And you know, Pastor Joseph, I want to come to you and ask you about ways that you can care for yourself. You've been in ministry now for four ish decades plus a, give or take a little there care. What are the things that you need to do to take care of yourself? Because sometimes it can be easy to put everyone's needs before yourself. What are some simple habits or rhythms or, or just practices that you would have to do that?
Joseph Worley I think spiritually we would, we immediately would gravitate toward the disciplines, the spiritual disciplines. Beginning prayer being one of the foundational, spiritual disciplines. Disciplines, times of silence, a pause, the, the sila, moments that we find, the, the really those holy pauses that God designs for us, if we'll take them. times of contemplation, silence. I'm sounding like a mystic, but I'm really not. I just think that these are disciplines that are, they're essential on emotional level. I think that, making sure that we have Healthy relationships beginning in our home, but then friendships. again, my generation, less likely to be vulnerable in those moments. you know, could serve ministry and not really have, a lot of people. and that's probably been a struggle of mine. I consider myself to be a friend to all. But on, on a really, really personal level, I have to really reach back to someone that I knew back in high school and college and, and I have that relationship today. But, but they're not in my congregation. in, in our church. On a physical level, I think just taking care of your health, I mean, should I give this talk or you. I mean, basically around just taking care of yourself, what you eat, your exercise. I, had a heart attack in 2016, and my son. That was the same year that our firstborn grandchild came into the world. And he said, dad, you need to take care of yourself if you want to be here to experience that. Not spot, you know something. I want to experience that. And so I started doing some things, walking, jogging, running, and probably going crazy on the running and weightlifting. I, I crossfit today at, you know, five in the morning. And so, you know, I think physically taking control of your life in a way that helps complement those other areas,
Dr. Jessica Peck you know, I think that is so true whether you're a pastor, whether you're a nurse, whether you're just a human being being for sure. Especially for parents, we do need to take care of ourselves because other people that we're serving, they get, they get comfort and knowing that we're taking care of ourselves now, obviously the unexpected can happen, and sometimes those things can happen to be. See, I care enough about you that I'm caring for myself. I want to be the healthiest, strongest person that I can be physically, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, to be able to serve you. I, I think you guys have just modeled such a beautiful father son relationship and a ministry partnership. Kyle, I would love to know what you hope will come of this book. Who are the, when you look out at the ministers who might read it, the lay leaders, the pastors, the. The parents who will read it and think about leading in their own homes, administering in their own homes. What do you hope that the Lord will do from this work that you and your father have done together?
Kyle Worley I hope that seasoned leaders, whether they're vocational or volunteer, will read the book and they'll use it as a resource to coach up, develop and mentor emerging leaders. And I pray that emerging leaders will read it and they'll be able to Avoid some very, very obvious icebergs and pitfalls on the journey to a healthy and sustainable ministry to serve Christ Church over the long call. That's my hope.
Dr. Jessica Peck Oh, I mean, that's a great hope to have. Joseph, let me ask you, as you were writing the book with Kyle, what did you learn about him? What did you observe about him and his ministry that maybe you hadn't seen clearly before? What do you see as his strengths in contributing to this work that you did together?
Joseph Worley You know what I've realized? You said earlier that he was following in my footsteps. That I've told my wife often in our conversations, in the writing and discovery and as I dialogue with him and in. In these podcasts and so forth. I said it. Maybe he followed in my footsteps, but, in many ways, I feel like I'm following in his footsteps right now, and I'm really blessed by that. He. I don't think I've ever really just said this to him, but I really learned from him a lot. A lot, lot. And I'm so grateful that I have a son that I'm learning from. And because his bandwidth is. If you visit with him, you know, his bandwidth is incredible. And it's like, whoa, okay, so I really feel like I'm walking in his footsteps.
Dr. Jessica Peck Kyle, you want to respond to that?
Kyle Worley That's. There's more humility than honesty in that statement, Jessica. But it's a mark of his character, so we'll let it stand. M.
Dr. Jessica Peck Well, I absolutely love it. I'm so grateful for. For you guys and for the work that you have done. You know, when we look at what you want leaders to do, what this book is going to help you do, learn the biblical principles of a call to ministry, those early years of ministry leadership. So if you have a. A new minister who's just starting out, this would be a great gift to give them and. And to know that they're not alone. Known that the challenges that they face are challenges that ministers who have walked before them have faced and have been faithfully mentored and have stayed and have learned how to be resilient. It talks in the book about some healthy personal, physical, emotional, and spiritual rhythms like we just talked about. Here you can discover basic principles for professional and pastoral communication and some practical advice. Now, I know there's probably not very many pastors out there who may have gotten an angry email, but just in case you are one of the outliers, this might help you to respond if, you know, you didn't pick the right hymnal. Color, but also I. I have seen that fight before in a church. How to build effective teams, how to organize your first funeral service, and many other intensely practical questions for new leaders. It's intended to be a manual for new ministry leaders and those leading them. And they said in here, don't just read this book, use it. Kyle and Joseph, I'm so grateful to both of you for everything that you have done. We'll give a shout out to Pastor Steve. I know you gave him a shout out, Kyle, one of your mentors who was listening. And we thank you for everything that you're doing. If you're a pastor, a ministry leader, whoever you are, whatever you're doing, I pray as I always do, that the Lord will bless you and keep you and make his face shine upon you. And I'll see you here tomorrow. We'd like to thank our sponsors, including PreBorn. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and has seen over 100,000 commitments to Christ. Will you join PreBorn in continuing this good work? supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today. Go to preborn.com/AFR
Jeff Chamblee the views and opinions expressed in this broadcast may not necessarily reflect those of the American Family association or American Family Radio.
Jessica welcomes Kyle and Joseph Worley to discuss navigating the early years of ministry. They share practical insights for aspiring and new leaders in vocational ministry or lay leadership, as well as those who support them.
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