Jenna Ellis: Rights that our founders recognize come from God not government
Jenna Ellis: Jenna Ellis in the morning on American Family Radio. I love talking about the things of God because of truth and the biblical worldview. The U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect. The rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
Donald Trump claimed absolute power over the makeup of the Republican Party last night
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Wednesday, May 20, and the headline driving the day is Donald Trump claimed absolute power over the makeup of the Republican Party in Thomas Massie's primary ousting last night. That's coming from Politico playbook. but interestingly there's been a lot of different reaction. A, lot of conservatives are very concerned about that exact fact because the Republican Party should be made up of principled individuals who all are aligned, with the same ideology and the same framework, not just perceived, and subjective, frankly, loyalty and fidelity to one leader. so a lot of the people who are for Donald Trump and saying, well, if you can't play on the team, you can't follow the leader, then are you really surprised, that you are basically kicked off the team? So there's kind of two schools of thought here. And one senior Senate Republican operative told Politico these so called victories over the last couple of weeks are just a mirage. They're self owns. We're not actually beating Democrats and we're not actually advancing legislation. Instead, gas is up 45% due to our actions and the President's decision to go to war with Iran. He's just focused on the ballroom. He announced a 1.8 billion restitution fund with zero details or congressional authority to do so. It is just criminal crazy.
Bob Good says 60% of Republicans are willing to vote for President Trump
So let's welcome in former, Representative Bob Good, who is a former Virginia congressman and also suffered the ire of President Trump's perceived disloyalty with his only crime, actually supporting a Republican candidate in a primary. I mean, utterly ridiculous. And I was really, really sad to see, him leave Congress. But Bob Good, you've had some thoughts on, on Thomas Massie's ouster and Trump's grip on the Republican Party. how are things looking as well.
Bob Good: Great to be with you, Jenna. Thanks for having me again. And while we all can recognize that thankfully President Trump won a second term, thankfully we don't have Kamala Harris or Joe Biden and President Trump's doing and has done a Lot of great things. However, as you were saying in your intro here, you shouldn't interpret the willingness of some 60% of Republicans to obediently, robotically obey and vote for candidates who they don't even know. They don't even know Ed Gowrin. Nobody knows Ed Gowran. Ed Gowrine didn't take positions. He didn't do debates. he, wouldn't answer questions, specific policy questions and so forth. His only thing was, I will do what President Trump tells me to do. And when you have 60% of Republicans or so who say, hey, the purpose of a member of Congress is to obey the President, to enact whatever the President's agenda may be, that is, that is not the constitutional, intention of the legislative branch, which is supposed to be the dominant lawmaking body, of course. But you shouldn't, interpret those results in a Republican primary, where in Kentucky, for example, they don't have open primaries, so closed Republican primaries as an indicator for how things will go in November in 26, or how things will go in 28. and it's very concerning that as some 99% of Republicans in D.C. have essentially surrendered their voting card to the President. Also Republican primary voters have essentially surrendered their voting card to the President, where they're saying, we will obey and comply and surrender and just vote for someone because the President tells us to. And you've got members of Congress, of course, that's where Thomas Rub is with Thomas Massie, Republican members of Congress, almost all of them, except for Rand Paul and Thomas Massie, willing to vote for things they would have never voted for under a Democrat President willing to go along, whether silently or explicitly, with policies and things they would never have supported. The extension of FISA, $5 trillion increase in the debt limit, maintaining Biden's Covid level spending, and more, out of just simple fear and obedience to the President.
Jenna Ellis: M. And that is a real danger, not just for the next two years, where maybe if, the. Those who are in favor of all of this are, are correct and there's at least an advancement of Trump's agenda that the American people did by and large vote for, overwhelmingly in, in 2024, if there can be some legislation that actually moves through the Senate as well, and that's the bigger issue, of course, for the next two years, this might be okay. But, to your point that no one knows Ed Gallerain, and no one knows a lot of these people that Trump, is attempting to oust, Those that he doesn't prefer and replace. Nobody really knows those people. they likely will be in Congress for a lot longer than just the two years. And so what does this say about a post Trump GOP when he's not going to be the name on the ballot in 2028? However, my prediction is that he is not going to let control of the GOP go anytime soon and is still going to want to dictate his, endorsements and who's in the party and all of that. almost as a MAGA Inc. Sort of banner over the gop, even when he's out of office.
Bob Good: Well, you referenced a few times here and we have as well. But the Trump agenda. What is the Trump agenda beyond just doing whatever the President says? The President can change the agenda and change the philosophy or change the policy, or redefine what's America first, or redefine what's conservative, or redefine what's MAGA or the Trump agenda. And everyone is supposed to just obey and comply and submit because he is President Trump. but, but to your point, I don't know how the party unifies in 26, how the party unifies in 28 when it's just based on a personality. What is the unifying factor? And you've dumbed down Congress, the Republican Congress in particular, when the only criteria that matters is a willingness to say, I will obey, worship, submit, adore, surrender to whatever the President says. so you are attracting and rewarding the worst kind of, I'll say, character qualities in a candidate. and really, these aren't even Trump first people. They are themselves first because they're willing to do or say whatever it is to win. In other words, to pledge loyalty to the President if they determine sometime over the next two years as President Trump moves to lame duck status and if his poll numbers continue to crater and he becomes less popular and they don't think it's in their political interest to be aligned with him, they will drop him. They will ditch him until 28. Because it's all about just being in Congress, staying in Congress, getting elected, winning elections. It's not about what you do.
Bob Good says the Republican Party is facing an identity crisis after Trump
And so what is the unifying, political philosophy, the conservative principles for the Republican Party today? What are the sacred, non negotiable, issues worth fighting for or principles worth fighting for? I don't know what those are for the party at large.
Jenna Ellis: And that is a really concerning assessment, and that should concern every conservative and especially every Christian listening, that if we can't Define what are the controlling principles of the gop? And I think we really can't right now. I think you're absolutely right. Then what is this party? I mean this is supposed to be, the party of conservatism, of fiscal responsibility, of genuine liberty, of protecting our God given rights, of following the Constitution and originalism, of ensuring that we have, the social issues are traditional and based in natural law. I mean all of these things are what used to define what we're conserving, as conservatives. But as you rightly point out, Bob good. When it's no longer principled, it's just defined by the subjective whim of the leader. then where do you go from there? And so where do you think the GOP is going to go from here when Donald Trump is no longer on the ballot in 2028? Because we, like the Democrats in the last election, are facing an identity crisis and if Trump doesn't have a grip on the party, then who's gonna be the one to sort of reestablish the guiding principles of, of the gop?
Bob Good: Well, you're right, you're going into the midterms, you're going to be running on 40 trillion in debt, a $5 trillion increase, the debt limit which won't even last the balance of President Trump's term. $2 trillion deficits, maintaining Biden's Covid budget, refusing to address or even talk about spending anymore. The Iran war, regime change, extending and reauthorizing fisa, which Republicans used to be against. Marijuana, being reclassified as a Schedule 3 drug. Increased abortions, more abortions than no limit on chemical abortions being, chemical pills being mailed into states, where abortion is restricted. Restored funding for, Planned Parenthood. You've got government taking an ownership stake in private companies. Things conservatives used to be against. A central bank, digital currency, sovereign wealth fund, the Epstein files, protecting the wealthy friends, these are things that Republicans would have been expected to oppose, that they'll be running on in the midterms and in 28 and beyond. and then you've got the gas prices, over $4 a gallon. The President is saying that's peanuts by the way, just recently said that was peanuts and he thought they would be much higher. but there is an affordability crisis that hasn't been addressed because of a refusal to address the spending which is causing the inflation and causing the higher interest rates.
Jenna Ellis: And that type of ownership of these issues for the gop, again is very concerning. And to your earlier Point as well, that we as a base don't know the guiding principles other than fidelity to Trump, of people like Ed Gel Rhine. We don't know what the driving principles will be of anything else, of where his vote will lie if Trump is not the one guiding it. So after Trump, then where is the MAGA loyalty? And so what needs to happen, in your opinion, from now until 2028? And this is the concern, the major concern that I have, when everybody's just saying, well, the party's got to just submit to Trump, go along with whatever he wants. Well, at some point he isn't actually going to be in the seat and in office. I think he's, as I said, I think he's going to still try to control the party, drive the agenda, whatever it is, try to pick and choose the winners and losers. that's what he loves to do. And I think he's not going to stop doing that unless he is literally dethroned or ousted from the party in some fashion. So what, in your opinion, Bob Good, needs to happen between now and 2028 to reclaim and recover, even with ownership, unfortunately, of some of the votes and some of the issues, reclaim the principles that the GOP should be standing for?
Bob Good: Well, it's hard to envision or to predict a, positive outcome because to your point, those things that a message was sent last night again on what it takes to be a Republican nominee, what it takes to win a Republican primary, but that does not translate to swing voters, independents, moderates, the voters who decide general elections, so that it's. I don't think it bodes well for Republicans in November and in 28. To your point, you've made this reference a couple of times. It's hard to imagine the president allowing this attention to shift from him after the midterms, as traditionally we move to the 28 election right away and people begin to run for president and jockey and lobby for position, whether JD Vance or Marco Rubio within his administration. Will he allow that to happen? How will he handle a post Trump mentality, a post Trump campaign taking place while he still is the president? But the answer is for Republicans to do what they have not done, which is summit change. Some encourage and to help the Republican. Excuse me, help the president enact conservative policy to resist him when he's wrong, to stand up against him when he needs it. But the messages consent, don't do that. Or else, perhaps they won't fear being primaried in 28, with the president not having the Same kind of influence, perhaps. But what we need is a courageous conservative warrior like the governor in Florida, a candidate, who, as you know, that I supported and I think that you like as well. We need someone who's willing to show courage and to show principle and to actually bring the Republican Party back to the issues that it says that it stands for. Someone like Governor Ron DeSantis, in my view.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, I fully agree. And, you know, speaking of Governor Ron DeSantis, I was in an event with him, not long after the 2024 election, when Trump won. And he was talking about, the future and 2028. And of course, everyone's question is, are you going to run again? And, you know, it's way too early for all of that. And he, like a good, politician does, didn't answer it directly, but some of his commentary was talking about how, he wanted to assess whether a Republican could even win in 2028. And I thought it was spot on because he was talking about the economy. He was talking about how the GOP doesn't stand for what it used to stand for. I mean, even then, he was talking about, you know, can another person who is not Donald Trump follow the. Some of the mess, frankly, that has been created by that? And I think it will take someone who is, is able to come in with strong, bold, solid conservative principles and acknowledge the good of what Trump has done. And obviously, as you mentioned at the outset, I'm very thankful we don't have a Kamala Harris administration. Yay. Right?
Jenna Ellis: So acknowledge the good. But then also say, but here's where we've gotten off, and here's where the MAGA movement has become the godless populist movement. And so here's where we all need to coalesce and where we need to go, unlike, and, and, and, and reject people like Ro Khanna who said, I don't know if you saw this video that he posted last night. My good friend Thomas Massey lost tonight. He lost because he has the. He had the guts to stand up to the Epsom class and against the war. He won voters under 45 by 30 points. But then he goes on to say, as a Democrat tonight, I say to voters who feel rejected by Trump, we welcome you. Join our coalition to take on the rotten system and stand for the working class. We will build a movement to stand for Team America. I mean, that may be attractive to some disaffected Republicans. I don't think any conservatives are like, oh, yeah, the answer is to go to the Democrats, but, that's going to be a real danger. So, I mean, do you think overall that a Republican, that we have a strong enough Republican that can stand up in 2028 in part against Trump, but in a way that's designed to at least allow for the good as well? Because I think that's going to be a really tough, you know, line to kind of thread.
Bob Good: Yes. I think to your point, obviously, Democrats are pure evil. Democrats are not the answer. They're the source of almost all the problems in our country. that said, what will help Republicans politically this November and in 28, if they get to run against Democrats in the polls while they show Republicans are unpopular, Republican Congress is unpopular, the president's unpopular, Democrats are even less popular. And the American people don't believe that Democrats have the solutions and that, they don't agree with their policy. So at least Republicans get to run against Democrats. That might be the saving grace, we hope in November. But to 28, I think it will be difficult. historically, only once in the past 100 years or so has the party in power held the White House when the President couldn't or didn't run again. That was George H.W. bush in 88.
It really hasn't happened. You have to go back almost 100 years before that
It really hasn't happened. You have to go back almost 100 years before that. So historically, the die is cast against the Republicans. And I think it would be very difficult to win in 28 if you're seen as an extension of the Trump presidency, like a J.D. vance would be. I think what you need is a courageous change, someone who embraces the good, embraces the positive, but is willing to talk about how we need to do things differently and, what the right course is for the country from a conservative standpoint. And I think that's the key for us to win against what will be probably a Gavin Newsom, Kamala Harris type nominee, who the country hopefully won't want to embrace their policies.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, absolutely.
Bob Berman: Republican Party under President Trump has massively failed on debt and spending
And so, on that note, last question for you, because we're almost out of time, but, the Democrats are not wanting to release, a campaign autopsy for 2024. I mean, we all know why they lost, but to me, it's showing that they are not willing to actually face facts like they never do. they never want to face reality, but they don't want to say, okay, here's what the voting public and the American people overwhelmingly rejected. And so when you look at the base of voters, because we've been talking about the leadership so much, but what about the base of voters who, a lot of them have come of age and will have come of age, to be engaged in the process. And then you know, obviously we've, we've had sort of the ceiling as well for It'll be almost 15 years that Trump will have been the head of the party by 2028. That's a really long time. And so for the voters who have been so loyal just to the name and the brand of Trump, will they turn out and vote Republican consistently after Trump? I mean, what do you think about the voting base and its composition?
Bob Good: Well, the Republican Party under President Trump has massively failed the country on the number one most important issue of the federal government and the m greatest threat, which is the debt and the spending. The debt is 40 trillion now or will be 40 trillion this fall. It was only 20 trillion when Trump first got elected. That's why the affordability cris is so extreme and so resilient if you will, because the policies that worked last time of just trying to grow the economy, we're not going to grow our way out of the spending in the debt crisis. And the young people are suffering. They can't afford to buy homes, they can't afford to move out of their parents houses. they're struggling under housing costs, interest costs, health, care costs obviously, and energy and utility costs and gas prices and so forth. And Republicans have to be willing to address the debt and the spending. The next, during the next president's term, Social Security and Medicare, will go bankrupt. It's not a theory anymore. It's the CB. The CBO says it'll be 2032. It'll probably get moved up to 2031. The next president gets sworn in 2029 will have to deal with the debt crisis because it will happen on his or her watch. It's no longer out in the future, it's now. And Republicans have to show a willingness to deal with the number one issue that affects the country.
Jenna Ellis: Absolutely. Well, we've got to take a break here, but Bob, good, I so appreciate your, your very insightful analysis. I think this has been one of the best conversations I've heard on what's going on, what Congress actually should be vested with and focused on the principles of the party and where we go from here. so it's going to take a lot though to go back to the grounding principles that at least used to drive the party. Nobody wants to go back to the establishment or the Republicans in name only. But I think there is going to be an identity crisis, and we are going to have to think about now what leader is the best person that is able to take control of the Republic Republican Party and actually promote the values that the GOP needs to be based on. So we'll be right back with more.
Jenna Ellis: welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Thomas Massie: Christian conservatives embraced Donald Trump in 2016
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And we've been talking about getting back to the conservative values that at least used to define the Republican Party, used to define the gop. And, you know, it's interesting because we have, for, I think a while, rejected the establishment and the Republicans in name only. and the embrace and the rise of Donald Trump, is largely because of that. And there were a lot of people, myself included, that were really excited in 2016. of course, we were very excited that Hillary Clinton didn't win, but, very excited, but also, I think, very sobered in terms of understanding the limitations of exactly what we were voting for. Because Donald Trump has never been the beacon of a wonderful, Christian conservative in the sense that, other candidates have been. in terms of his personal life, in terms of the things that he has advocated for on social issues. For example, he's okay with homosexual, marriage, quote, unquote. Right. He. He's not conservative on certain things. We all knew that in 2016 going into this. And somehow over the last, decade that he has been in control of the Republican Party. It seems like our conversation and our discussion has shifted to suggesting that, because, you know, he. A lot of people rightly have said, I've said this, that he's been the best president in my lifetime. I think that's tr. For a lot of reasons. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean then that we have to or should as Christians, defend literally everything that Trump stands for. And I think that becomes the focus when you look at what's going on in the party and how Trump is requiring loyalty to himself as the number one test of whether or not you are a Republican. That should never be the test. It has never been the test. And if you told Christians in 2016, and by the way, the evangelicals and that support, Trump could not have won without those endorsements and that push. Right. If you had told the Christian leaders in 2016 that, fast forward to 2026, that's going to be the test of a Republican, they would all, hopefully. But I think they would have all said, no, no, no, that, that's. We. We can criticize our leaders. We've Criticized, rightly, Trump, but we also believe that God can use him in this capacity. So where did we go wrong on this? Well, this is kind of the, the. The frog in the boiling water kind of, analogy where we have become so acclimated over the last 10 years of Donald Trump's leadership that we are less and less phased by some of the outrageous and outlandish and, frankly, wrong, requirements that he puts on the party and on, Republican candidates and also on voters and his supporters that now, I mean, every day, if I even disagree with one thing or if I say, you know, I really wanted to Massie to continue because I think he's great, I've known him for years. And, if I even say one thing and disagree with one thing, just like Bob Good. Right. Or like Thomas Massie, then all of the sudden, you know, you're called a traitor and you're not a Republican, and you've never supported Trump. I mean, I worked for Trump. I was the one who was out there speaking his talking points and advocating for him as a spokesperson as part of his campaign and representing him as a lawyer. And that was fine. Right. And there were things internally, of course, that I disagreed with. But when you are a spokesperson, for a principal, you do that privately. Now, I can and do openly talk about what I disagree with, that it's the same as back then. And so I've been consistent because I am a Christian and I am principled first and foremost. But those principles meant that I can support Trump, I can even work for him. But I'm not ultimately loyal to him. I'm loyal to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who actually requires certain things of me, that if in conflict with what Trump requires, then of course I need to go and choose my Lord and Savior. It's not that hard. But when you have the test of a Republican, as only and solely fidelity to whatever Trump's whim requires, I don't think anyone credibly in 2016 would have said that that is okay. So why are we saying this now? That's the big question. But I want to shift gears because, our special guest is ready.
Ryan Helfenbein: We've been supporting Trump despite our principles
Rhyen Helfenbein. He is the Vice President of Communications and Public Engagement at Liberty University and the founding executive Director of the Standing for Freedom Center. And, Rhyen, just in the last few minutes of this segment, I want to get your response to this, and I know you've been listening in for the last couple of minutes, that, you know, I don't think as someone who's also, of course, been a part of the evangelical coalitions, been a Trump supporter, you know, but been first and foremost a conservative. Where do you think We've kind of been the frog in the boiling water from 2016 to now where it's not a matter of supporting Trump because of our principles, it's now supporting Trump in spite of our principles. And that's really not a good, principle and motivation for a political party.
Ryan Helfenbein: Yeah, it's a great question, Jenna. Glad to be on with you. And my apologies. Let me just tell you, I'm in Washington, D.C. today, interestingly enough, and I'll have the opportunity later today to join Speaker Mike Johnson and a few others in a meeting. And, I was a, former, Kentucky, District four citizen. so Thomas Massie was actually my congressman in Kentucky, and for many years I voted for him, supported him. I'll tell you, it's interesting that what we see in this paradigm, of course, every. What does it matter? You go back all the way to the elections of fdr, or even the elections of Lincoln, or President Johnson, you know, in the, 1960s, the president is always the leader of the party, and there is a bully pulpit there, right? Because the president does have, the ability to set that agenda. And typically, the members of the party, whether it be Democrat or Republican, typically support that. And your question is so germane because it is about principles. I think this is an interesting moment. some people, if you're watching the media and you're saying you're seeing the kind of, the aftermath today, the postmortem of, last night's, elections, it really came down to, for Massie. Did he support the omnibus bill? Did he support the spending, the outside spending? And I'm a fiscal conservative. I was an economics major. I look at our national debt and I look at the biggest crisis facing affordability is not just the interest rates and the price of homes. It's really about how far your money can go on gasoline, on eggs, education, you name it. And as we print more money, the value of that dollar becomes less and less and less. And Massey keyed in on that. That was a big part of his policy for years. He, was a fiscal hawk. He was about a balanced budget. He never, minced words about who he was and where he stand for. But sadly, in this last decade, that made him a principled no vote on just about everything. And when you're looking at where the Democrats have been and what they've been doing and Republicans in terms of what their agenda is, their policy agenda. So much of this has been a keep away game. Democrats are trying to play keep away from Republicans, Republicans playing keep away from Democrats. And your true principle. Guys along the way kind of get lost in that shuffle. And that's where Massie found himself. And I think he found himself also as a, as a, whether he struck first or Trump struck first, an outspoken critic of the president more recently. And I think that's where that primary battle ultimately shifted. There were people in Kentucky that were longtime supporters and said, you know what, Enough is enough. We're going to move another direction. And these are people that were loyal to Massie for such a time, long time. I don't think the principle should ever be lost when it comes to, what we stand for as conservatives and what we're conserving. And part of that is economic policy. And sadly, I think Republicans and Democrats have both, both abandoned that. Democrats of course, are going the way of Bolsheviks, but Republicans are spending the way democrats used to 20, 25, 30 years ago. we've become the tax cut and spend party. And that's the, the sad reality is that's driving up the deficit and it's driving down affordability because we're printing more money to cover, cover that gap.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah.
Leadership still has to be confined by principle and by law, Elfenbein says
So well said. And you know, something that you said early on, Rhyen Helfenbein, is so important that yes, you know, the president is the leader of the party generally and sets the agenda and all of that. But it has to be confined. Leadership still has to be confined by principle and by law. I mean, one of the founding principles of our constitutional republic is that the law is higher than the, the leader or the king or the president. I mean that, you know, this goes back to the Middle Ages when they were talking about Rex Lex, the king over the law versus Lex Rex, which is the law, is higher than the king. And we obey a set of principles and, and, and common social mores and norms. And the leader doesn't have, the jurisdiction or the power to simply reinvent those at whim. And that's not only moral, but then it's, it provides freedom and and saves the people from oppression. And I think we're missing that principle in the Republican Party today when we have basically exchanged a set of principles and are saying that our leader is above those sets of principles and can reinvent them at whim. I mean, you know, we, not to get into the Democrats sort Of no kings, protests and all of that because Trump isn't truly a king. But as a leader, leaders still need to abide by principles. And I think Republicans, by and large, even some Christians have forgotten that.
Ryan Helfenbein: Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I also think at the same time there, and there have been longtime Republicans, ah, like Rand Paul and others similar to Massie, kind of in a similar category. but you know, and I remember, Rand was also a no vote on the, on the omnibus as well. But there were, there are a number of, of Republicans who are recognizing in this current paradigm where Democrats have been, where the populace is, that they are trying desperately, to use all means of political power, to keep Democrats from retaining the House, taking the House or even taking the Senate. And so it really does become a power dynamic and a power politician almost by design. you know, the old days of the principled arguments between say, like a Tip o' Neill and a Ronald Reagan were both generally agreed on the general welfare. You know, we wanted what was best for families. We believed in God. And we also believed America is the greatest nation on the earth. All of that was these shared identities. And now the arguments are over those very things. we have a party on the left, that doesn't believe in a God, that doesn't believe America is the greatest nation. In fact, they think that America is the greatest offender, and the west is the worst, and so on and so forth. And so they're wanting to tear all this stuff down. And so in this moment we are seeing populist movements, both right and left. And populism has a tendency to evade principle. And that, that can be a scary thing. And you go all the way back to the sons of Liberty. These are arguments between Samuel Adams and Jon Adams. and you know, there were mobs back then that wanted, in the 1700s, that wanted to lynch Tories, for their support of England. And there were people like Sam Adams that said, no, we need a just rule of law, you know, even though the one who was the attorney, the defending attorney in the Boston Massacre, ah, our founding fathers believed in these principles of freedom and they should be exercised no matter what side of the political aisle that you're on. And I think that these populist movements, are very difficult. I caucus with Republicans because I'm a conservative, but at the end of the day, Republicans have also let me down too. And we have to be honest about that as Christians. So.
Jenna Ellis: Well, said and we've got to take a break here. But, you know, it's a great point, Rhyen Elfenbein, that, you know, this is nothing new under the sun, right? I mean, even back at our founding, some of these same in principle, interestingly enough, in principle, these same arguments were still happening. And it was the same push by principled, people who understand, genuine freedom and liberty and the rights that come from God our Creator, that we can and should disagree peaceably and all be under the same rule of law, not just the whims of a leader. So a lot to think about, especially as we head into not only the midterms, but also, a post Trump America, at least in him sitting in the seat of the presidency in 2028. but Rhyen is going to stick with us because we have one more topic for him. So we will be right back with more.
Jenna Ellis: welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Ryan Helfenbein: Making sure church doctrine actually matters is important
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. And I'm still here with my special guest, Rhyen Helfenbein, who is the vice President of communications at Liberty University and the founding executive director of the Standing for Freedom center at Liberty University. And Rhyen, you know, speaking of being principled and making sure that our political parties are, are principled over just the whims of, you know, the dominant culture, ideology, or, of one particular leader or personality. Well, let's talk about the church now, because the center for Baptist Leadership posted, this piece from, Dr. Al Mohler, who of course is part of the SBC, as you are in my church as well here in Florida as, affiliated with the SBC and talking about why the SBC must pass Dr. Mueller's truth and Unity Amendment. and so, this caption says complementarianism that never affects real life church practice eventually becomes functional egalitarianism. So the SBC must decide whether its convictions will mean theoretical or actually shape church life. And we could say the same about politics and policy. If we, have philosophy and we have principles that never affect real life, legislative policy, then it just becomes sort of functional conservatism. And we're not really doing anything but in the context of the church, making sure that its doctrine actually matters and shapes church life and governance, this is really important. And this is also going along, Rhyen, with the whole debate of women pastors and, you know, obviously in the context of complementarianism.
This is really an important issue in the Southern Baptist Convention
So I'll just, I'll let you kind of take that for where, where you want to comment.
Ryan Helfenbein: Yeah, no, no, this is really an important issue, in the Southern Baptist Convention and anybody who might be listening. And if you know anything about the Southern Baptist Convention, it is. It is basically a confederation of churches that are working together in unison. There is no real hierarchy. this is completely voluntary association. So each local church is autonomous. But the question is, who belongs and who who doesn't? And there have been churches in the past that have drifted for various reasons. They've drifted on doctrine and orthodoxy. They've even drifted on, praxis or, practice. Right. Orthopraxy, where they might be doing things in the local church that do not actually comport with Scripture. And there is such a thing as a credentialing committee that looks at some of these churches and some of these cases and says, hey, you're kind of out of alignment with the Baptist faith and message, the common statement, a shared identity that Southern Baptists have. And if you're outside of that, then the credentialing committee may say, hey, you're no longer a part of the convention. and so we have to not just agree on mission, but we have to agree on doctrine. one of the things I love that Martin Luther said long ago, is really, truth above all, unity if possible. And today, so many people in the Christian world, it seems like it's unity above all, but truth if possible. And we can't, function as a denomination without understanding, first and foremost, who should and shouldn't be a pastor. and by that. And I think this is really something that needs clarification, because some churches are calling, you know, the children's. the children's director, in some cases might be the children's pastor. And they might be saying, hey, this is a woman that we put in this position. we want to be clear that From Scripture in First Timothy 2, this is about the elder, or pastor who is teaching and having authority, in the church. And so we're talking about the role of a teaching pastor, a teaching elder, somebody that has been put in a position of authority. this is. And so we need a definition. We need to make sure. Especially now, when you look at all of the cultural challenges with egalitarianism that has creeped in, into so many different places in society, a lot of these things have not been thought through, in the more contemporary times. And so that's why this definition is being sought out. And we've had people like Mike Law and others who have put forth an amendment and have done a Great work on this to raise awareness. and so for about three or four years this has been a challenge. This has even been the. One of the issues that going back to the anaheim convention in 2022, Rick, Warren's former church, Saddleback Church, was voted out of the convention because they had basically as a church they determined that they wanted the husband and wife to be co pastors, meaning that the pastoral role and the teaching role would also be reserved for the wife, at that church. and so the Southern Baptist said absolutely not if you're going to be a part of the convention. And so that's what this is all about. And I think that this is something that is needed for clarity but also in this case unity. What are we unifying around course, centrally is the truth of God's word.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said. And this is why it's so important to clarify what we believe, why we believe and the interpretation of scripture before we get to some of these debates. And again, just like politics and policy, we shouldn't just be debating the issues separate and, and uprooted from the foundation of, of the overall biblical worldview lens and the truthful lens and the truth of reality that is built upward. And so I think there is a, a real lack of theological discernment among a lot of pastors because Rhyen there and this kind of started a lot I think with the Calvary Chapel movement that that said, you know, anyone can be a pastor. You don't necessarily have to have specific seminary training, which is true. But at the same time if you are not studied and under faithful men who teach, and you have not studied scripture for yourself, but you're just getting up and maybe you're a great orator, there's a danger there of getting off doctrinally because you haven't been substantively educated and trained up in, in theology and doctrine. And so it's not necessarily that the the accreditation itself matters. It's more about the education, the study and the training itself. And I see that as being part of this overall evangelical movement that has gone off more the way of wanting pastors who maybe are influencers and great orators instead of those who have studied well and have committed themselves to doctrine before these debates even arise.
Ryan Helfenbein: Yeah, no, Amen. I wholeheartedly agree. I mean there is such a thing as spiritual malpractice. There is such a thing where people have been, you know, hands have been laid, there's been an anointing given. people have approved somebody to be a shepherd, and that shepherd is not prepared, hasn't been properly discipled. And, seminary is just a discipleship tool. But this, you know, the seminary does not necessarily make for qualified men, for gospel ministry. It might qualify them in terms of their preparation doctrinally, when it comes to theology and orthodoxy, but it may not prepare them spiritually. but on the flip side, you might have, you know, a convert, in a church, and this person shows, great leadership skills and hope and promise, but they haven't really been equipped theologically to take on that task. And so, yeah, you can get yourself into a situation where, this pastor is not fully equipped. And, you know, what is the polity of that church? They may not have a plurality of elders, other. Other approved men of God who can kind of step in and help to shepherd one another and hold one another accountable and have safe guardrails. So a lot of this has been, driven by Jenna, this. This just fast and furious, church planting strategy that Southern Baptists have had for more than a decade. And it's a good thing to see new churches planted. We're so grateful for that. But a lot of times we're conscripting people into these ministries that, I mean, they have all kinds of beliefs, when it comes to theology and all kinds of practices as a result. And, you know, one of the things, I'll say that the threat of egalitarianism is real in the church. and that, by the way, that extends itself into lgbt, it always does. It starts with maybe the question about, you know, roles of men and women. But then invariably it's like gravity conversations about homosexuality and all these other aberrant forms of sexuality. but like also, you know, wokeism, M and social justice. That, too, has influenced some of these younger pastors and church planners. That, too, has been a threat.
Jenna Ellis: Yes. And this is why. And we. And, we're up against the hardbreak at the end of the show. But this is why we have to make sure to make disciples of men. We can't lay hands on anyone quickly. The Bible is replete of warnings against raising up our leaders quickly, especially in the church. Rhyen, Healthy and Vine, really appreciate it. You can always reach me and my team, Jenna, at AFR Net.
