Jenna Ellis: When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound it's divine connection
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Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you, and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
America is facing a mental health crisis that seems to deepen with every generation
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Thursday, August 20, and the Lindsay Clancy murder trial enters day 17 of testimony. And this has been, a worldwide, conversation about this mother who has, killed her three young children. It's led to conversations online about, postpartum depression, about mental health, about the prescription and over prescription of drugs. And, you know, America is facing and has been facing a mental health crisis that seems to deepen with every generation. And as Christians, we look at a lot of this and think, how could someone, possibly even through the worst of circumstances, commit these types of atrocities? And it seems like daily the headlines are something even, even more severe and horrendous, and we see headlines of anxiety, depression, addiction, loneliness, despair. All of these things are increasingly common, and the answer is too often reduced to diagnosis or another prescription. But have we begun treating it, even as Christians, as the only answer, while ignoring the deeper causes of human suffering? Because some drugs may manage symptoms, but they can't repair a broken family, restore a sense of purpose, reconcile guilt, create community, or answer the spiritual questions at the heart of the fall and the, despair of humanity without the redemption of Christ. So today we're asking whether we are truly treating mental illness or merely medicating a culture in crisis.
Tim Cl is president of the American association of Christian Counselors
So let's welcome in my, very good friend, Tim Cl, who is the president of the American association of Christian Counselors. And, Tim, this is a topic that you have been, teaching on for decades. And I'm so thankful and grateful that you joined us this morning because I want, you to give us kind of your overview of where we're at as a culture when we're dealing with this topic.
Tim Clinton: Jenna, good, morning to you. trying to get some coffee in me, keep this thing going. But, now it's. It's. What a sad, commentary situation. Looking at this, Lindsey can Clancy case. And, to think that the mind can go to that kind of darkness, it's like, still shocks me, you know, at the end of the day, Jenna, I do know this, that, brokenness is profound. A lot of people are hurting out there, and there's a lot of factors that contribute to why we think, feel act the way we do. we know that, people are experiencing increasing, rates, of anxiety and depression, even suicidality. Suicidality is off the charts. The CDC reported not long ago that 57% of our daughters and granddaughters felt persistently sad. They also found in their research that 30% of our daughters and granddaughters had seriously contemplated suicide. that's not a mental health crisis. That's a mental health disaster. And so, there's a lot to talk about here, Jenna, because you're right. heart also is desperately wicked. Who can know it? what are the factors at the end of the day that really do lead to these kind of situations?
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and it seems like as we are continuing to have even more, comfort in America, we have more of, this success. obviously, you know, there are some major issues around affordability and other things that we talk more in the political context, but in, also the sphere of our daily lives. But really, you know, here in America, we're so blessed, to have the type of country and the providence of God that, that we do. And yet, as you mentioned, we're experiencing a genuine increase in a lot of these, emotions, and feelings of desperation, including, fear and loneliness and emotional distress. Why do you think that is?
Tim Clinton: You know, at the end of the day, Jenna, look at what's happening spiritually in the country. There's a hunger for God like we've never seen before. Bible sales are, off the charts. You've got today's generation showing up in church. These are the ones who, felt desperately lost and abandoned or largely, you know, grew up fatherless. You start throwing in all these factors and think, hey, even young men are coming back, to God. I saw a recent Fox News piece that said something like 42% of those under the age of 30 young men felt that faith had become an important factor of their everyday life. All that says to me is that you've got a generation of people who are looking for help. They're looking for answers. they're, they're dabbling, they're reaching for anything to anesthetize the emptiness or maybe the brokenness or pain inside of them. And so, there's a thirst, there's a hunger for something. And ah, there comes the God piece, you know, that the psalmist cried out, hey, why is my soul cast down? Hope thou in God, at the end of the day. In other words, we were made for something more than, quote, just you know, showing up at the office, collecting a paycheck, whatever, you know, that life and relationships become central. This whole, this whole story, this whole narrative. You don't have to go very far in the Bible to recognize that we were made for a relationship with God. And then we're never going to find fulfillment or happiness until we find it in the one who made us. And so I think there's that quest for meaning and purpose and value and something more.
Jenna Ellis: Absolutely. And the answers that our culture has for, you know, something more. And saying, you can be great if you are, you know, an influencer, if you have a social media following, if you have, you know, community now means that, you know, if you have followers online and there's not real human connection. And we've seen the effects of the digital generation, the social isolation you mentioned, the family breakdown. We're seeing, you know, all of these horrendous, policies that need to be fixed, like, what's happening in the realm of surrogacy and child, commodification and the intentionality now of fatherlessness or motherlessness. so all of these things are happening in our civil society and we need to be involved, as we often talk about on this program in, as Christians civil society, so that we can have a moral and upright society. but we also must have the church involved as well because it seems like the church is overall is taking a little bit of a backseat, Tim. And saying, on Sunday morning, you know, here's sort of the five step, TED Talk to happiness. And you know, this is your motivational life coaching, ah, sort of speech rather than actually getting to the heart of the problem. Yeah. Of human suffering and the reality of this world.
Tim Clinton: Jenna. There's just, it's a tragedy because the deeper things of life are what people are really hungering for. And I think people are coming back to the church in droves. But I think, if we don't give them the answers that lead to the deeper Parts of their soul, they're just going to have a quick fix, quit, hit, if you will, and they're going to keep on going right out the other side, and they'll never find, what their. Their heart and their deepest longings are craving for. And that is a meaningful relationship with the Creator, God, who sets all things in order. And there's a way, that seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death. But when you find your purposes, in alignment with God, how everything changes, how I live, how I relate, how I love, everything changes in light of who he is and what he means to us in our everyday walk.
Jenna says the church has misstepped in Christian mental health
It's such a joy, by the way, Jenna, to bring, Christian mental health to the table. You know that. And, I do think the church, has misstepped, in mental health. I think we largely ignored issues like growing up without a dad. What does that look like? growing up and being abused by someone you're supposed to be able to love or trust. What does that do to you? How does it impact your view of God? growing up and maybe wrestling, with a temperament or personality or life experiences that led to a lot of depression or anxiety in my own life and never being able to talk about that and have somebody just say to me, hey, suck it up, buttercup, and you just need to pray harder or something like that. Jenna. That has been such a disservice to. And so these kind of conversations then, get all bobulated, if you will, and people are trying to make sense out of all of it. And next thing, you know, everybody in the world's a mental health expert, if you know what I mean.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And we've. We've offloaded or perhaps abdicated the responsibility of truly ministering to people with the truth of the Lord to this, the secular counselors. And they don't have the answers because they can't provide hope or restoration or repentance. And so, you know, when you're talking about all of these things and, you know, these life experiences, one of the dangers of, of all of this, that. That I've seen in, you know, whether it's a prominent, celebrity figure, politicians, or, you know, just even people that I know personally, diagnoses in the mental health realm can often then become someone's identity rather than a description of a condition that, or a, you know, a set of behaviors that can, be modified and can, be helped with the truth of the Lord and how Dangerous is that type of culture that we've created that encourages identity in our brokenness instead of identity in Christ.
Tim Clinton: There's been a lot of debate inside of, mental health, I'll use that term word broadly, about, diagnosis, labeling, because they do tend to pigeonhole, people. You put them into a box, you know, and people. Next thing you know, they're going up online Googling everything, and then they're looking at these. really why diagnostic classifications came about was we were trying to figure out, behavior categories that described what people were going through. And so you get these clusters of behaviors then that begin to make sense. If someone's experiencing. Experiencing panic disorder, what does that look like? If someone's ocd, what does that look like? If someone is really struggling with, you know, bipolar depression, what is that looking like? Okay. And when we understand it, then we begin to think about what are the ways that we can best treat those different, types of behavior. But, if you don't see the person in the midst of it and all you see is a diagnosis, then you've lost, ah, a lot of the dynamic of where and why and how a person is in the state that they're in. And so you've got to be so careful around all that. You know, that. And then the whole medication piece. People I know love to debate, should someone be on medication or not. Frank Minrith, was an old pioneering Christian psychiatrist, who really blazed the trail for a lot of what we talk about in Christian mental health. And Frank one time told me, jenna, he said, tim, I believe that medications. And by the way, they've gotten so much more sophisticated now with medications. But he said, I believe medication can help people. And there's. I've just. I've seen some people who needed something. Their neurochemistry was off, and they get on. They got on a medication. We find. We found the right dose, and the next thing you know, it's like miraculous. You know that? And I'm with him. We all know that there are people who are over medicated. We know there are people under medicated. we know this. And this is where Frank clarified it for me. And I loved it. He said, tim, but the one thing I've learned is this medication can help you, but it can't give you hope. Only Christ can give you hope. And I thought, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. So if my daughter is struggling and she needs help, I want to find out what are the root causes here. Are they biological, social, et cetera? Are they thinking babies? Whatever they are, let's figure that out. Number two, what is the best path or course of action to get her the help that she needs? Let's get everything in the fight. Let's do it. And then, by the way, let's make sure, most importantly, that her identity and so much more secure. Because in this life there are no real hooks. There's some things we can do to help people. And people ask me all the time, do you think the psychologist down the street, there's not a Christian can help people? Yeah, I think he can. I think he does. Does, it mean that. I really believe he gives people the ultimate answer and the hope that they need. We know where that, we know where that, that discussion takes us all, and that's to Christ himself.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. because ultimately, ah, while, you know, there may be some, perceived help, in the short term for, you know, some of these, psychiatrists, if they're not addressing the heart issue and the root, ah, cause then, you know, in, in the worst case scenarios, they end up, as somebody like Lindsey Clancy, who's been, you know, prescribed tons of medications by, you know, multiple different psychiatrists who really aren't even, overseeing a lot of what's happening. And when, according to some of the testimony that's come out at trial, you know, she reached out, had a few of what we would call Christ for help that largely went ignored. And so, what, from a biblical perspective, what do you think that churches and Christians need to do so that we aren't abdicating, all of this crisis in America to, the secularists who cannot give that hope. And they can only turn to whether it's medication or some of these other solutions that they can provide that ultimately don't get at the heart issue, or what would a better model look like for pastors and Christians to actually be involved in providing the hope that only comes through the gospel of Christ?
Tim Clinton: Jenna. That's a softball for someone like me. at the end of the day, the word says my people perish because of a lack of knowledge. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to create conversations around this where it should be in the church, we shouldn't be outside the church, we shouldn't be looking to the people down the street for mental health conversations. They need to take place in the church. The word of God is strong. We anchor ourselves in God's word. He has given us everything that lives that pertains to life and godliness.
Jenna Ellis: Let's get people trained inside the church on mental health
In the midst of that, let's talk about mental health. Let's get people trained inside the church. We're on a massive campaign training up mental health coaches. we are having our AA60 mega national conference, September 9 through 11, in Dallas at the Los Alington Hotel. We've got a, real theme this year is on neuroscience. What we're learning about brain health and so much more. From Daniel Amen, to studies around the dynamic of faith from the Global Flourishing Study. Tyler Vanliere der Wael from Harvard, Byron Johnson from Baylor, Harold Coney got a Duke. We've got leading, leading people who understand, biblical anthropology and theology and more. And bringing all these into an intersection so we can put the cookies down on the lower shelf and talk to people meaningfully about what's happening in their mind, brain, body and relationship connection, and how faith is at the anchor of all of this. And the freedoms that we have there lead people to a new place, a newfound freedom that we're no longer slaves, caught up in the bondage of this life and the insanity of everything that's going on around us and the vicissitudes of our own mind, which, by the way, can be a very free, beautiful, creative place or can get very dark and turbulent and dealing with the forces of hell and evil itself in the midst of all of it. There is freedom in Christ. I am come that you might have life, and that you might have life more abundantly. That's the piece that we're talking about celebrating. And I want to see mental health ministries spring up in every church in America. And Jenna, the good news is this. It's happening.
Jenna Ellis: Well, Tim Clinton, I really appreciate your, providing insight and hope through the gospel of Christ. And we've got to take a break here. but you know what you said as well about, truly ministering where the church should not be the place where we go and look perfect on Sunday and pretend that, you know, the, the perfect families exist and that we have no struggles or pain or problems. The church should be the place that we go to minister and be ministered to and live real life in real community together. This is why the Bible says, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together. it's so that we can do all of the one anothers in scripture, minister to one another and pray for one another, comfort one another. and we need to take that seriously as Christians so that all of this is not just abdicated to a secular world. Just like in the civil government realm, if Christians aren't involved in creating policy, then we abdicate that to the secular humanists who will try to drive our society and they're not going to try to drive it more toward Christ. So we will be right back with more. Hi, I'm Jenna Ellis. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.netgive that's afr.net give welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Lindsey Clancy's defense argues she suffered from postpartum psychosis
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, as we mentioned off the top, the Lindsey Clancy trial, which has been at the center of attention for a criminal trial and you know, some of these that get national attention. Detention, is, is reaching its trial day 17 of testimony. So she's currently on trial for the strangling deaths of her three young children. Her defense argues that she suffered from severe postpartum psychosis and should not be held criminally responsible. And the defense does not dispute that she committed the killings. But, basically her defense centers entirely on her mental state and criminal responsibility. So let's welcome in Jared Felitti, who is senior counsel for the Lawfare Project. So Gerard, what's the latest here? Because I know there's been a lot of chatter on, you know, all sides, some helpful, a lot of it not helpful on social media, but overall, you know, where, where are we at in the trial?
Gerard Filitti: Well, as now the prosecution, the defense is putting on its case. it's been featuring family members and psychiatric experts. I, think yesterday we were early because one of the witnesses was not available to testify, from what, from what I understand. but this is basically the defense's opportunity to argue that, she did not know what she was doing at the time that she committed these horrific acts, arguing that the psychosis and overmedication mitigated, her criminal responsibility. So we will continue hearing the defense's presentation and then the prosecution will get a chance to rebut some of that.
Jenna Ellis: And you know, how, I mean, this is nothing new to say, you know, not guilty basically by reason of insanity or, you know, other. I mean this isn't that, but you know, this is, this is no, stranger to just like the public consciousness of saying, okay, well I'm not responsible for my actions even Though I'm admitting I did them because of some other justification. And here it's It's essentially she's asking for not, guilty by reason of, you know, not knowing, what she was doing, not appreciating the consequences of her actions. And the over medication, if it ends up in a not guilty, does that change in any way, you know, kind of the landscape of how the common, juror, the common individual understands, responsibility and moral responsibility for actions? you know, this. This to me is the first case that I can recall that's this prominent, that deals specifically with this type of, you know, over, you know, medication that is being put just at the center of this trial.
Gerard Filitti: Well, I think we have had cases over the years, though none nearly as prominent, with defense, arguing that there was over medication or that any medication that the defendant was taking was impacting their ability to, have the requisite it. Mental status to commit the crime. And we've also had cases involving postpartum, depression and claims that that should waive liability for acts. But at the end of the day, what all these had in common was in large part the defense didn't meet the burden of establishing that the person who was accused of committing the act lacked the capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness and to control their conduct. So I think the danger here is that if we do have a not guilty verdict and the jury does buy into a defense that over medication somehow weaved her ability to know right from wrong and control herself, that opens, the floodgates really to this defense being used in many other cases. And, we do have a national incidence, if you will, of over medication for a lot of people. So this is really the danger if the jury looks past the ability of this person to control their conduct and no right from wrong, and focuses instead on the medication.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And, you know, it's really a dangerous cultural phenomenon that it seems like more and more, the average person, and these are people that then go on to sit on juries, have this understanding that, you know, these diagnoses and these psychoses and, you know, the over reliance on prescription medication, really do excuse, any sort of criminal conduct and, Is there a danger, do you think, to just the cultural perception that then translates into how, we may have a rise of jurors that are more sympathetic to these types of defenses?
Gerard Filitti: I think there has been a cultural shift, and it's part, I think, driven by the fact that we have less mental health available today. Than we had 20 years ago. Meaning that we see a lot more people who perhaps meet the standard for being involuntarily committed for mental health help who are out on the seats, whether it's the homeless population or otherwise functioning individuals. So now there is this perception that there are unmedicated, untreated people who might have a mental illness, who are committing crimes. The difference here though is that this person was under medical care, that they were being monitored on their medication. And regardless of the issue of whether or not she was overmedicated, these doctors, these professionals do have a standard when someone is a danger to themselves or others to commit them for inpatient treatment. That didn't happen here. So that tells you that the doctors didn't think that this was a person who could not control themselves. And I think that's what people need to remember that when you are under medical care, the doctors generally do know what they're doing. There may be disputes about the effectiveness or the need for certain medications, but overall there's a professional responsibility. So that's what people I think need to understand, that it's not just a matter of self will. There is some system to control here.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And that professional responsibility, I think is getting somewhat confused with personal responsibility. And obviously, you know, when when an individual is going to a licensed professional and relying on their expertise and their diagnosis and prescription, it seems like we need to to change the way that we fundamentally go about not only diagnosing and prescribing, but also the follow up after this and perhaps this could have been prevented if that had occurred. I, don't think that it's a, an excuse or a reason that she should be found not guilty, by any means. I, personally think that she deserves the death penalty for this. I, that there's no justification or excuse, with everything that's been presented. But there is also that professional responsibility component. I mean just like if someone were to you know, someone were to call you for, as in a, in an attorney client relationship and ask for advice and then relied on that advice and then ended up, you know, in a situation where then society and you know, the criminal court said no, actually that wasn't okay advice and, and they could point back and say well, wait a minute. Well you know that my, my lawyer told me this, that may in that context, you know, be at least mitigating factors to say, well the professional responsibility of the attorney was was the whole reason that we have lawyers that we can go and ask some of these questions. And, you know, similarly, not exactly, but similarly, we rely on the medical expertise of people who are licensed to prescribe. And it seems like there's just no accountability, hardly at all for that profession. I mean, we're seeing it maybe in the realm of all of this, you know, transgender nonsense and some of these civil suits. Do you think that we're going to start seeing some civil litigation, perhaps, against some of these licensed prescribers?
Gerard Filitti: I think that we will, and we are seeing that. And civil litigation has been pretty effective at, dealing with some of these problems over the years. Look at the opioid crisis. We didn't have reforms into how doctors prescribe certain, controlled substances. Not by the government, not by the state, not by a licensing board. Until there were lawsuits about the over prescription or the easy prescription. And now doctors are much more aware and concerned, not about, anything other than the threat of litigation and monetary damages. So there is the prospect that bringing civil lawsuits will affect a change in how prescribers are doing things like this. Same with transgender care. If you're suing the people who are providing those medications, those hormone blockers, or performing the surgeries, then you're forcing them to consider and reevaluate how they do things. Not out of the sake of morality, unfortunately, but out of the sake of legal threat. So one way or another, I think that lawsuits do help in situations like this, because it does put doctors and other prescribers on notice that their conduct may have consequences.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. so well said. And, you know, this is going to be something that we're, as a society, going to have to deal with.
Gerard Felitti: There's some confusion about Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing
I want to switch gears here. In the last few minutes, we have in this segment, Gerard Felitti to also ask you about, the recent commentary on, the. The prosecutors and the defense kind of filing their, their last briefs, and memorandums and either supported or, or objection to the preliminary hearing bind over in the Charlie Kirk case. And, I think that there's been some confusion. I mean, as well meaning as the guys are over at tpusa, this is why, you know, you need to have, legal commentary from people who are actually trained in law. because, the concern here is that the preliminary hearing only deals with a very narrow issue, whether there is probable cause to actually continue or. And bind over is a legal term, the charges, to trial. And yet, there was a recent post by Blake Neff, who's one of the tpusa, guys on and I think was a former producer for Charlie Kirk show, but he said this. Utah prosecutors have responded to Tyler Robinson's defense filing ahead of the final preliminary hearing and confirms what observers pointed out about that filing. The defense is very conspicuously not contesting any of the core evidence showing Tyler Robinson committed the murder. They don't contest the camera footage, the DNA, the rifle, the cause of death, or Tyler's phone data. All they have is a complaint about reliable hearsay, which won't apply at the full trial anyway, and then attacks on the aggravating factors. If there is any merit at all to the theories that Candace, etcetera, have pushed in the last 11 months, why didn't the defense bring them up? I think there's a lot of, misunderstanding there. Why don't you, you straighten this out for us?
Gerard Filitti: Well, there's a lot to go through, but the simple high level version is that for these preliminary hearings and bind over, you don't need the same type of evidence and the same formality that you would need at actual trial. So you have under Utah law the ability to introduce reliable hearsay, which you cannot do at trial. You're looking to show that more likely than not, the evidence is sufficient to show that the person did the act that he was accused of committing. And what the defense has been arguing, essentially, they're not arguing that the evidence itself doesn't exist or is flawed. They're arguing the process. They're arguing that some, some of it was hearsay and inadmissible. They're going to lose on that. And that pertains to verbal testimony, not the actual DNA evidence. But what the defense is mostly arguing is that there isn't enough to show that there is a reason to apply the death penalty. They're more challenging the aggravating factors that would to the application of a death penalty than the evidence themselves. They can still challenge the evidence at trial, they can still challenge the testimony at trial. But right now it looks like they're more in a position of challenging the application of the death penalty in order to potentially cut a plea or to drop the highest level of the offense and just have a murder charge without the death penalty on the table. So the rest of it, what the defense is arguing doesn't have to do with whether or not they believe the evidence is enough to convict, Tyler Robinson. Its positioning for is there enough evidence to move forward to trial? And I think that they're not contesting the actual evidence. They're contesting more some of the testimony in an attempt to lose the aggravating factors.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And in this limited circumstance, I mean, I think the key point was what you said. It's not that they've waived their ability to raise certain defenses about the evidence at trial. It's just that at this particular stage for the, the purpose of the preliminary hearing, that's not the defenses that they're raising. They're attacking, just the, the issues that they believe are relevant in order to not have the death penalty on the table, anymore. And I think that there's been some confusion on social media about the stages of trial and what exactly these particular arguments are advancing and what that does or does not do, in terms of the, the actual trial itself if we get there. And so, what would you encourage, people who are watching, you know, a lot of this on social media? I mean, I, I see a lot of, opinion that is driven by frankly, a misunderstanding of the legal process. And how can people who are watching some of this on social media, perhaps, or even listening to commentary, try to distinguish between what's accurate or maybe an opinion based on false understanding of the legal.
Gerard Filitti: Well, I think the biggest thing I would say is to wait until there is the bind over hearing on September 1 and the judge rules. I do expect that, Robinson will be bound over for trial. I think that's when people need to start paying attention. Everything that people have seen so far on TV is what normally is done behind closed doors in a grand jury. It's technical. It's highly technical. It's not something that average people can just kind of complete understand the significance of because it's not something that is meant to play out in public. Utah does it differently. In this case, it is a public and open preliminary, hearing. But in general, people should remember that what they're seeing now is a technical legal attack on charges that normally happens behind closed doors. And they should really start paying attention at the trial stage when they'd be seeing what they normally see, which is the full weight of evidence and the full, full range of legal defenses that are available at trial but not before.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, really well said. And so, you know, always be careful to make sure that you're listening to people who at least have, you know, a basis in legal expertise. I know that all of the guys over at TPSA are very well meaning. I think that their opinions obviously, against the, ridiculous stuff that Candace Owens and others are spouting. you Know again, is, is very well meaning but we need to have the understanding of what's going on in the legal process down first and then talk about it and then have opinions on that. So Jared Felitti really appreciate you always coming on and straightening that out for us. You can follow him on X and also the Lawfare Project and we will be right back with more.
80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing baby on ultrasound
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One year since the assassination of Charlie Kirk is rapidly approaching
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, as we are awaiting that that ruling from the judge in the Charlie Kirk case, which as our previous guest Jared Felitti said is expected to come down September 1st. we are also rapidly approaching the one year mark since the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And the commentary and the just vitriol that has been on social media surrounding this, especially from people like Candace Owens has just been demonic. There's really no other word for it. And Jon, Doyle from BlazeTV says that the two best things that, that could have happened to the left were the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the blame for it being completely dissipated. Here's what he had to say recently on his podcast.
John Doyle: The two best things that could have happened to the left, just to kind of distill it for you, were the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the blame for it being completely dissipated. It's the best two things that could have happened to them. The best two Things that could have happened to Candace Owens were the assassination of Charlie Kirk and her being able to grift off it for social media content. It's literally the greatest thing to have happened to her in years. Just like the left, the left had been really, taking some Ls. They tried everything they could to stop Trump. Couldn't do it, lose the election, which they maybe shouldn't have lost. It's okay, they got an assassination. They took out Charlie Kirk, they took out the guy who was actually winning hearts and minds. The only guy who could do it. Especially within the younger generation, Candace Owens, very similarly, her show was going downhill. No one really gave a about her. It's like, okay, you're like based black woman, but now you're doing this like Ellen De genre style talk show. I don't really understand. Nobody gave a. She saw an opportunity with the anti Zionism stuff. Now she sees further opportunity by bringing in the true crime stuff, combining these two very popular genres into this one Charlie Kirk saga. It was the greatest thing to happen to her. The combination of those two things. The, assassination of her friend Charlie Kirk and the ability of her to use social media's bias to her advantage because the big tech companies didn't all of a sudden decide that they like conservatives, they're going to favor this kind of content. If I talk about a conspiracy theory, I get in trouble. But if Candace Owens creates one out of nothing to dissipate the ire people felt towards the left because of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, all of a sudden, it's great. It's great for her.
John Doyle: Charlie Kirk's death has left a void in conservative politics
Jenna Ellis: Well, let's welcome in, Jon Doyle. And you know, I think that you express this incredibly well. And, and it's so unfortunate that, in the midst of what should have been something that allowed for a coalescing of the right of Christians, of anyone rational to say this type of political violence should never happen in our country. suddenly, a year later, instead of seeing revival and this kind of, ah, coalescing, we're seeing, I think, even more fracturing among the right, which is just playing into the left's hands. where do we go from here?
John Doyle: Good morning. And it's a really good question. That was the thing about what Charlie Kirk was doing over at Turning Point usa. You know, a lot of people who are maybe apolitical only knew about him because of his podcast or because of his, you know, Instagram reels or something. But that was really not even maybe the most important work he was doing. He was working behind the scenes as a coalition builder, as a guy who could keep everybody together behind a unified cause. And, and when you don't have that kind of leadership, what you'll have in the immediate aftermath is a lot of emotional outpour, which is understandable. But then the influencer class rears its ugly head to debate who's going to fill the shoes? Who's going to be the next Charlie Kirk? And as we've seen, nobody has filled those shoes. There is no next Charlie Kirk. And everything has just been more, just confused and divided than ever. And people have exploited that for their own gain by embracing leftist positions such as Candace Owens. In trying to dissipate the energy that Americans felt conservative Americans, or just normal Americans felt against the left, seeing how, like millions of their family members and co workers were celebrating the guy who they'd seen just trying to talk to kids about issues on college campuses, be brutally assassinated and leave behind a young widow and two children.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I mean, it's just, it's so sad that the, that even on the right, that's the response is to immediately, you know, have this kind of, podcast to stand. You know, the influencers kind of rise up and say, okay, this is an opportunity for me. Instead of recognizing that the broader goals of the movement. And you know what, Charlie, the void that Charlie left, was so much more palpable. and I think that we all, myself included, didn't even appreciate, while he was still alive, how much he was a coalition builder and was pointing toward, true conservatism and values instead of just, the grifting or the attempt to, you know, get clicks and views, he was really doing what he was doing for sake of the nation. And, and I don't see a lot of the influencer class, having that same motivation. And when we're talking specifically about young people, the issues of that are important to them, like, unfortunately, you know, the America Only segment and also this affordability issue and this kind of trend toward socialism, we are really missing a voice like Charlie's on college campuses. And how much of that void do you think plays into potentially the outcome of the midterms?
John Doyle: I think it's going to be pretty significant. Fortunately, it's not necessarily the end of the world. A lot of young people aren't really even engaged politically anyway, and to the extent that they are, they tend to be naturally more leftist. However, Charlie was doing a very good job making inroads with Gen Z and with millennials who actually do tend to have a somewhat center right disposition. I think the reason that, Republicans are losing, the youth to ideas of socialism is because for the last several decades, we haven't really meaningfully addressed the two issues which have contributed to that, which are immigration and general affordability. we have a lot of Gen Z grifting or drifting towards socialism because a lot of Gen Z is like first generation immigrants or people coming from countries which are more collectivist, which are more socialist in nature, and they don't assimilate. And so naturally, when they see a guy who's promising to conserve America or a guy who's promising what's America, I'll give you free stuff, unfortunately, they tend to side with the latter more than the former. And I think then to the extent that, Gen Z is still, you know, real stock American, we still don't want to gravitate toward Republicans because a lot of Republicans haven't meaningfully addressed the fact that, you know, home ownership is no longer a reasonable expectation by the time you're 30 years old. We and millennials are like the first generation in America to ever really encounter that. And it doesn't mean that, you know, we're entitled and demanding free housing. We just want the same standard of living that we know our parents had and that we know our grandparents had. And if the one party is saying, now you just have to work harder and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and the other party is saying, what, those guys are crazy and hate you. We'll give it to you for free. That may not work on paper and it may be a lie. However, they're at least trying to engage with the youth and sometimes people just need to be heard out. And Charlie, Kirk, J.D. vance, these kind of like younger millennial GOP figures are the only people, at least in my memory, who are actually trying to meet young people where they are on their issues and say, look, we're not going to give you anything for free. However, there's a boot on your neck and we can get that off so that you can maybe have something approximating the American dream.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And you know, one of the things that I loved about what Charlie did was that he never made excuses or, you know, tried to, just dismiss the concerns. Like what we see from a lot of, unfortunately the GOP figureheads. I mean, a lot of these talking points from, people even like Speaker Johnson, you know, it seems like they kind of dismiss the concerns and say, well, you know, just trust us, bro. You know, and that isn't going to go very far. And, and some of the things that Charlie did. And what I also do see JD Vance doing incredibly well is acknowledging the problem, but saying, listen, the left doesn't have the solutions. Here's where we need to head. And then, so they're, they're addressing the problem, saying, yes, I agree with you. Making, the people who are engaging in good faith feel understood and seen, and then they're saying, okay, let's work together to solve the problem. I don't see a, ah, lot of the GOP writ large doing that in terms of actually attempting to drive coalitions. It's sort of, you know, sit down, shut up and trust us. And there's a wide segment of millennials, myself included, and the younger generation who are just really fed up with that.
John Doyle: Yeah, it's absolutely true. I mean, I think that the charitable interpretation would be, we obviously know that socialism doesn't work. We know that managed economies are a very silly idea, to put it nicely. But you still have to sell your vision for the country to younger voters who unfortunately maybe don't know things that would have been common sense in previous generations. And yeah, it's like you're saying, you know, if you're just going to write those concerns off and tell them that they need to go do their homework or go do the research by their self, if the other person's willing to meet them where they are and say, we hear you, we understand these concerns, and here's an idea for how to go about that. It's going to win nine times out of 10 versus somebody who's saying, you know, your concerns are ultimately your fault or ultimately, you know, unsolvable.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so Jon Doyle, you know, where do you think then that after the MAGA era? Because right now I think the coalition is, being held together by at least, a lot of these, splits from the establishment GOP who has at least reconciled enough with Trump that they're willing to follow him. and then you have some that really genuinely love him, like Lindsey Graham did, like Speaker Johnson, all the way to, you know, then some of these gen, zers who really like Trump, he's kind of held this coalition together, but in a post Trump world, which we're going to increasingly talk about as soon as the midterms m are over, that's just naturally, you know, where we end up in kind of the lame duck territory and looking for a successor. How important is it to have someone at the helm that can genuinely Be a coalition driver.
John Doyle: it is literally the most important thing. It is the most important consideration. A lot of establishment GOP types have kind of tacitly assimilated into the Trump era and maybe they keep their mouths shut about how much they dislike Trump. But these people have been working in politics long before Trump took it up as a hobby and they would like things to go back to how they were before. The American public literally cannot afford for that to happen. Donald Trump and his political movement is single handedly responsible for every net positive I have seen in my lifetime, which maybe isn't the longest time. I'm only 26. But if that becomes a debate again where it's up for grabs and we have to debate between whether we should continue doing what is obviously working, even if not as quickly as we would like, or go back to something which was obviously not working, that's going to be very problematic. And that's also why leftist media outlets have loved amplifying this idea of the MAGA Civil war. NewSong York Times writes about it, the Atlantic writes about it. They're very much trying to amplify and pour gas on this whole thing because they love the idea that we're going to be divided going into 2028 because they would hate nothing more than seeing a unified coalition succeed Trump and go into somebody like JD Vance at JD Vance 2028, which I think is absolutely the move. I think that he's great on the issues. I think that he understands what Trump's administration has been about. I think that's obviously why he was chosen to be the vice president lobby for heavily by Charlie Kirk, of course. And so going into that, I think, we're going to be in a very good position if we can keep our heads on straight.
Jenna Ellis: Well, it'll be interesting to see whether, you know, he's the type of guy that will be able to, be the coalition driver and be the man. I think that's going to be the central question, but it's a fascinating one.
John Doyle: Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
We've got to end here. Jon Doyle, really appreciate having you. Hope to have you on again soon. you can follow him at Jon Doyle and also follow the Blaze and as always, you can reach me and my team. Jennaafr.net. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today? Go to preborn.com afr.
Jenna Ellis: When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound it's divine connection
Jenna Ellis: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But she can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside her. One ultrasound is just $28, and to donate, dial £250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com afr Jenna Ellis in the morning on American Family Radio.
Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview, the U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government. I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you, and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the Morning.
America is facing a mental health crisis that seems to deepen with every generation
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Thursday, August 20, and the Lindsay Clancy murder trial enters day 17 of testimony. And this has been, a worldwide, conversation about this mother who has, killed her three young children. It's led to conversations online about, postpartum depression, about mental health, about the prescription and over prescription of drugs. And, you know, America is facing and has been facing a mental health crisis that seems to deepen with every generation. And as Christians, we look at a lot of this and think, how could someone, possibly even through the worst of circumstances, commit these types of atrocities? And it seems like daily the headlines are something even, even more severe and horrendous, and we see headlines of anxiety, depression, addiction, loneliness, despair. All of these things are increasingly common, and the answer is too often reduced to diagnosis or another prescription. But have we begun treating it, even as Christians, as the only answer, while ignoring the deeper causes of human suffering? Because some drugs may manage symptoms, but they can't repair a broken family, restore a sense of purpose, reconcile guilt, create community, or answer the spiritual questions at the heart of the fall and the, despair of humanity without the redemption of Christ. So today we're asking whether we are truly treating mental illness or merely medicating a culture in crisis.
Tim Cl is president of the American association of Christian Counselors
So let's welcome in my, very good friend, Tim Cl, who is the president of the American association of Christian Counselors. And, Tim, this is a topic that you have been, teaching on for decades. And I'm so thankful and grateful that you joined us this morning because I want, you to give us kind of your overview of where we're at as a culture when we're dealing with this topic.
Tim Clinton: Jenna, good, morning to you. trying to get some coffee in me, keep this thing going. But, now it's. It's. What a sad, commentary situation. Looking at this, Lindsey can Clancy case. And, to think that the mind can go to that kind of darkness, it's like, still shocks me, you know, at the end of the day, Jenna, I do know this, that, brokenness is profound. A lot of people are hurting out there, and there's a lot of factors that contribute to why we think, feel act the way we do. we know that, people are experiencing increasing, rates, of anxiety and depression, even suicidality. Suicidality is off the charts. The CDC reported not long ago that 57% of our daughters and granddaughters felt persistently sad. They also found in their research that 30% of our daughters and granddaughters had seriously contemplated suicide. that's not a mental health crisis. That's a mental health disaster. And so, there's a lot to talk about here, Jenna, because you're right. heart also is desperately wicked. Who can know it? what are the factors at the end of the day that really do lead to these kind of situations?
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and it seems like as we are continuing to have even more, comfort in America, we have more of, this success. obviously, you know, there are some major issues around affordability and other things that we talk more in the political context, but in, also the sphere of our daily lives. But really, you know, here in America, we're so blessed, to have the type of country and the providence of God that, that we do. And yet, as you mentioned, we're experiencing a genuine increase in a lot of these, emotions, and feelings of desperation, including, fear and loneliness and emotional distress. Why do you think that is?
Tim Clinton: You know, at the end of the day, Jenna, look at what's happening spiritually in the country. There's a hunger for God like we've never seen before. Bible sales are, off the charts. You've got today's generation showing up in church. These are the ones who, felt desperately lost and abandoned or largely, you know, grew up fatherless. You start throwing in all these factors and think, hey, even young men are coming back, to God. I saw a recent Fox News piece that said something like 42% of those under the age of 30 young men felt that faith had become an important factor of their everyday life. All that says to me is that you've got a generation of people who are looking for help. They're looking for answers. they're, they're dabbling, they're reaching for anything to anesthetize the emptiness or maybe the brokenness or pain inside of them. And so, there's a thirst, there's a hunger for something. And ah, there comes the God piece, you know, that the psalmist cried out, hey, why is my soul cast down? Hope thou in God, at the end of the day. In other words, we were made for something more than, quote, just you know, showing up at the office, collecting a paycheck, whatever, you know, that life and relationships become central. This whole, this whole story, this whole narrative. You don't have to go very far in the Bible to recognize that we were made for a relationship with God. And then we're never going to find fulfillment or happiness until we find it in the one who made us. And so I think there's that quest for meaning and purpose and value and something more.
Jenna Ellis: Absolutely. And the answers that our culture has for, you know, something more. And saying, you can be great if you are, you know, an influencer, if you have a social media following, if you have, you know, community now means that, you know, if you have followers online and there's not real human connection. And we've seen the effects of the digital generation, the social isolation you mentioned, the family breakdown. We're seeing, you know, all of these horrendous, policies that need to be fixed, like, what's happening in the realm of surrogacy and child, commodification and the intentionality now of fatherlessness or motherlessness. so all of these things are happening in our civil society and we need to be involved, as we often talk about on this program in, as Christians civil society, so that we can have a moral and upright society. but we also must have the church involved as well because it seems like the church is overall is taking a little bit of a backseat, Tim. And saying, on Sunday morning, you know, here's sort of the five step, TED Talk to happiness. And you know, this is your motivational life coaching, ah, sort of speech rather than actually getting to the heart of the problem. Yeah. Of human suffering and the reality of this world.
Tim Clinton: Jenna. There's just, it's a tragedy because the deeper things of life are what people are really hungering for. And I think people are coming back to the church in droves. But I think, if we don't give them the answers that lead to the deeper Parts of their soul, they're just going to have a quick fix, quit, hit, if you will, and they're going to keep on going right out the other side, and they'll never find, what their. Their heart and their deepest longings are craving for. And that is a meaningful relationship with the Creator, God, who sets all things in order. And there's a way, that seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death. But when you find your purposes, in alignment with God, how everything changes, how I live, how I relate, how I love, everything changes in light of who he is and what he means to us in our everyday walk.
Jenna says the church has misstepped in Christian mental health
It's such a joy, by the way, Jenna, to bring, Christian mental health to the table. You know that. And, I do think the church, has misstepped, in mental health. I think we largely ignored issues like growing up without a dad. What does that look like? growing up and being abused by someone you're supposed to be able to love or trust. What does that do to you? How does it impact your view of God? growing up and maybe wrestling, with a temperament or personality or life experiences that led to a lot of depression or anxiety in my own life and never being able to talk about that and have somebody just say to me, hey, suck it up, buttercup, and you just need to pray harder or something like that. Jenna. That has been such a disservice to. And so these kind of conversations then, get all bobulated, if you will, and people are trying to make sense out of all of it. And next thing, you know, everybody in the world's a mental health expert, if you know what I mean.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And we've. We've offloaded or perhaps abdicated the responsibility of truly ministering to people with the truth of the Lord to this, the secular counselors. And they don't have the answers because they can't provide hope or restoration or repentance. And so, you know, when you're talking about all of these things and, you know, these life experiences, one of the dangers of, of all of this, that. That I've seen in, you know, whether it's a prominent, celebrity figure, politicians, or, you know, just even people that I know personally, diagnoses in the mental health realm can often then become someone's identity rather than a description of a condition that, or a, you know, a set of behaviors that can, be modified and can, be helped with the truth of the Lord and how Dangerous is that type of culture that we've created that encourages identity in our brokenness instead of identity in Christ.
Tim Clinton: There's been a lot of debate inside of, mental health, I'll use that term word broadly, about, diagnosis, labeling, because they do tend to pigeonhole, people. You put them into a box, you know, and people. Next thing you know, they're going up online Googling everything, and then they're looking at these. really why diagnostic classifications came about was we were trying to figure out, behavior categories that described what people were going through. And so you get these clusters of behaviors then that begin to make sense. If someone's experiencing. Experiencing panic disorder, what does that look like? If someone's ocd, what does that look like? If someone is really struggling with, you know, bipolar depression, what is that looking like? Okay. And when we understand it, then we begin to think about what are the ways that we can best treat those different, types of behavior. But, if you don't see the person in the midst of it and all you see is a diagnosis, then you've lost, ah, a lot of the dynamic of where and why and how a person is in the state that they're in. And so you've got to be so careful around all that. You know, that. And then the whole medication piece. People I know love to debate, should someone be on medication or not. Frank Minrith, was an old pioneering Christian psychiatrist, who really blazed the trail for a lot of what we talk about in Christian mental health. And Frank one time told me, jenna, he said, tim, I believe that medications. And by the way, they've gotten so much more sophisticated now with medications. But he said, I believe medication can help people. And there's. I've just. I've seen some people who needed something. Their neurochemistry was off, and they get on. They got on a medication. We find. We found the right dose, and the next thing you know, it's like miraculous. You know that? And I'm with him. We all know that there are people who are over medicated. We know there are people under medicated. we know this. And this is where Frank clarified it for me. And I loved it. He said, tim, but the one thing I've learned is this medication can help you, but it can't give you hope. Only Christ can give you hope. And I thought, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. So if my daughter is struggling and she needs help, I want to find out what are the root causes here. Are they biological, social, et cetera? Are they thinking babies? Whatever they are, let's figure that out. Number two, what is the best path or course of action to get her the help that she needs? Let's get everything in the fight. Let's do it. And then, by the way, let's make sure, most importantly, that her identity and so much more secure. Because in this life there are no real hooks. There's some things we can do to help people. And people ask me all the time, do you think the psychologist down the street, there's not a Christian can help people? Yeah, I think he can. I think he does. Does, it mean that. I really believe he gives people the ultimate answer and the hope that they need. We know where that, we know where that, that discussion takes us all, and that's to Christ himself.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. because ultimately, ah, while, you know, there may be some, perceived help, in the short term for, you know, some of these, psychiatrists, if they're not addressing the heart issue and the root, ah, cause then, you know, in, in the worst case scenarios, they end up, as somebody like Lindsey Clancy, who's been, you know, prescribed tons of medications by, you know, multiple different psychiatrists who really aren't even, overseeing a lot of what's happening. And when, according to some of the testimony that's come out at trial, you know, she reached out, had a few of what we would call Christ for help that largely went ignored. And so, what, from a biblical perspective, what do you think that churches and Christians need to do so that we aren't abdicating, all of this crisis in America to, the secularists who cannot give that hope. And they can only turn to whether it's medication or some of these other solutions that they can provide that ultimately don't get at the heart issue, or what would a better model look like for pastors and Christians to actually be involved in providing the hope that only comes through the gospel of Christ?
Tim Clinton: Jenna. That's a softball for someone like me. at the end of the day, the word says my people perish because of a lack of knowledge. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to create conversations around this where it should be in the church, we shouldn't be outside the church, we shouldn't be looking to the people down the street for mental health conversations. They need to take place in the church. The word of God is strong. We anchor ourselves in God's word. He has given us everything that lives that pertains to life and godliness.
Jenna Ellis: Let's get people trained inside the church on mental health
In the midst of that, let's talk about mental health. Let's get people trained inside the church. We're on a massive campaign training up mental health coaches. we are having our AA60 mega national conference, September 9 through 11, in Dallas at the Los Alington Hotel. We've got a, real theme this year is on neuroscience. What we're learning about brain health and so much more. From Daniel Amen, to studies around the dynamic of faith from the Global Flourishing Study. Tyler Vanliere der Wael from Harvard, Byron Johnson from Baylor, Harold Coney got a Duke. We've got leading, leading people who understand, biblical anthropology and theology and more. And bringing all these into an intersection so we can put the cookies down on the lower shelf and talk to people meaningfully about what's happening in their mind, brain, body and relationship connection, and how faith is at the anchor of all of this. And the freedoms that we have there lead people to a new place, a newfound freedom that we're no longer slaves, caught up in the bondage of this life and the insanity of everything that's going on around us and the vicissitudes of our own mind, which, by the way, can be a very free, beautiful, creative place or can get very dark and turbulent and dealing with the forces of hell and evil itself in the midst of all of it. There is freedom in Christ. I am come that you might have life, and that you might have life more abundantly. That's the piece that we're talking about celebrating. And I want to see mental health ministries spring up in every church in America. And Jenna, the good news is this. It's happening.
Jenna Ellis: Well, Tim Clinton, I really appreciate your, providing insight and hope through the gospel of Christ. And we've got to take a break here. but you know what you said as well about, truly ministering where the church should not be the place where we go and look perfect on Sunday and pretend that, you know, the, the perfect families exist and that we have no struggles or pain or problems. The church should be the place that we go to minister and be ministered to and live real life in real community together. This is why the Bible says, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together. it's so that we can do all of the one anothers in scripture, minister to one another and pray for one another, comfort one another. and we need to take that seriously as Christians so that all of this is not just abdicated to a secular world. Just like in the civil government realm, if Christians aren't involved in creating policy, then we abdicate that to the secular humanists who will try to drive our society and they're not going to try to drive it more toward Christ. So we will be right back with more. Hi, I'm Jenna Ellis. Did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.netgive that's afr.net give welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Lindsey Clancy's defense argues she suffered from postpartum psychosis
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, as we mentioned off the top, the Lindsey Clancy trial, which has been at the center of attention for a criminal trial and you know, some of these that get national attention. Detention, is, is reaching its trial day 17 of testimony. So she's currently on trial for the strangling deaths of her three young children. Her defense argues that she suffered from severe postpartum psychosis and should not be held criminally responsible. And the defense does not dispute that she committed the killings. But, basically her defense centers entirely on her mental state and criminal responsibility. So let's welcome in Jared Felitti, who is senior counsel for the Lawfare Project. So Gerard, what's the latest here? Because I know there's been a lot of chatter on, you know, all sides, some helpful, a lot of it not helpful on social media, but overall, you know, where, where are we at in the trial?
Gerard Filitti: Well, as now the prosecution, the defense is putting on its case. it's been featuring family members and psychiatric experts. I, think yesterday we were early because one of the witnesses was not available to testify, from what, from what I understand. but this is basically the defense's opportunity to argue that, she did not know what she was doing at the time that she committed these horrific acts, arguing that the psychosis and overmedication mitigated, her criminal responsibility. So we will continue hearing the defense's presentation and then the prosecution will get a chance to rebut some of that.
Jenna Ellis: And you know, how, I mean, this is nothing new to say, you know, not guilty basically by reason of insanity or, you know, other. I mean this isn't that, but you know, this is, this is no, stranger to just like the public consciousness of saying, okay, well I'm not responsible for my actions even Though I'm admitting I did them because of some other justification. And here it's It's essentially she's asking for not, guilty by reason of, you know, not knowing, what she was doing, not appreciating the consequences of her actions. And the over medication, if it ends up in a not guilty, does that change in any way, you know, kind of the landscape of how the common, juror, the common individual understands, responsibility and moral responsibility for actions? you know, this. This to me is the first case that I can recall that's this prominent, that deals specifically with this type of, you know, over, you know, medication that is being put just at the center of this trial.
Gerard Filitti: Well, I think we have had cases over the years, though none nearly as prominent, with defense, arguing that there was over medication or that any medication that the defendant was taking was impacting their ability to, have the requisite it. Mental status to commit the crime. And we've also had cases involving postpartum, depression and claims that that should waive liability for acts. But at the end of the day, what all these had in common was in large part the defense didn't meet the burden of establishing that the person who was accused of committing the act lacked the capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness and to control their conduct. So I think the danger here is that if we do have a not guilty verdict and the jury does buy into a defense that over medication somehow weaved her ability to know right from wrong and control herself, that opens, the floodgates really to this defense being used in many other cases. And, we do have a national incidence, if you will, of over medication for a lot of people. So this is really the danger if the jury looks past the ability of this person to control their conduct and no right from wrong, and focuses instead on the medication.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And, you know, it's really a dangerous cultural phenomenon that it seems like more and more, the average person, and these are people that then go on to sit on juries, have this understanding that, you know, these diagnoses and these psychoses and, you know, the over reliance on prescription medication, really do excuse, any sort of criminal conduct and, Is there a danger, do you think, to just the cultural perception that then translates into how, we may have a rise of jurors that are more sympathetic to these types of defenses?
Gerard Filitti: I think there has been a cultural shift, and it's part, I think, driven by the fact that we have less mental health available today. Than we had 20 years ago. Meaning that we see a lot more people who perhaps meet the standard for being involuntarily committed for mental health help who are out on the seats, whether it's the homeless population or otherwise functioning individuals. So now there is this perception that there are unmedicated, untreated people who might have a mental illness, who are committing crimes. The difference here though is that this person was under medical care, that they were being monitored on their medication. And regardless of the issue of whether or not she was overmedicated, these doctors, these professionals do have a standard when someone is a danger to themselves or others to commit them for inpatient treatment. That didn't happen here. So that tells you that the doctors didn't think that this was a person who could not control themselves. And I think that's what people need to remember that when you are under medical care, the doctors generally do know what they're doing. There may be disputes about the effectiveness or the need for certain medications, but overall there's a professional responsibility. So that's what people I think need to understand, that it's not just a matter of self will. There is some system to control here.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And that professional responsibility, I think is getting somewhat confused with personal responsibility. And obviously, you know, when when an individual is going to a licensed professional and relying on their expertise and their diagnosis and prescription, it seems like we need to to change the way that we fundamentally go about not only diagnosing and prescribing, but also the follow up after this and perhaps this could have been prevented if that had occurred. I, don't think that it's a, an excuse or a reason that she should be found not guilty, by any means. I, personally think that she deserves the death penalty for this. I, that there's no justification or excuse, with everything that's been presented. But there is also that professional responsibility component. I mean just like if someone were to you know, someone were to call you for, as in a, in an attorney client relationship and ask for advice and then relied on that advice and then ended up, you know, in a situation where then society and you know, the criminal court said no, actually that wasn't okay advice and, and they could point back and say well, wait a minute. Well you know that my, my lawyer told me this, that may in that context, you know, be at least mitigating factors to say, well the professional responsibility of the attorney was was the whole reason that we have lawyers that we can go and ask some of these questions. And, you know, similarly, not exactly, but similarly, we rely on the medical expertise of people who are licensed to prescribe. And it seems like there's just no accountability, hardly at all for that profession. I mean, we're seeing it maybe in the realm of all of this, you know, transgender nonsense and some of these civil suits. Do you think that we're going to start seeing some civil litigation, perhaps, against some of these licensed prescribers?
Gerard Filitti: I think that we will, and we are seeing that. And civil litigation has been pretty effective at, dealing with some of these problems over the years. Look at the opioid crisis. We didn't have reforms into how doctors prescribe certain, controlled substances. Not by the government, not by the state, not by a licensing board. Until there were lawsuits about the over prescription or the easy prescription. And now doctors are much more aware and concerned, not about, anything other than the threat of litigation and monetary damages. So there is the prospect that bringing civil lawsuits will affect a change in how prescribers are doing things like this. Same with transgender care. If you're suing the people who are providing those medications, those hormone blockers, or performing the surgeries, then you're forcing them to consider and reevaluate how they do things. Not out of the sake of morality, unfortunately, but out of the sake of legal threat. So one way or another, I think that lawsuits do help in situations like this, because it does put doctors and other prescribers on notice that their conduct may have consequences.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. so well said. And, you know, this is going to be something that we're, as a society, going to have to deal with.
Gerard Felitti: There's some confusion about Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing
I want to switch gears here. In the last few minutes, we have in this segment, Gerard Felitti to also ask you about, the recent commentary on, the. The prosecutors and the defense kind of filing their, their last briefs, and memorandums and either supported or, or objection to the preliminary hearing bind over in the Charlie Kirk case. And, I think that there's been some confusion. I mean, as well meaning as the guys are over at tpusa, this is why, you know, you need to have, legal commentary from people who are actually trained in law. because, the concern here is that the preliminary hearing only deals with a very narrow issue, whether there is probable cause to actually continue or. And bind over is a legal term, the charges, to trial. And yet, there was a recent post by Blake Neff, who's one of the tpusa, guys on and I think was a former producer for Charlie Kirk show, but he said this. Utah prosecutors have responded to Tyler Robinson's defense filing ahead of the final preliminary hearing and confirms what observers pointed out about that filing. The defense is very conspicuously not contesting any of the core evidence showing Tyler Robinson committed the murder. They don't contest the camera footage, the DNA, the rifle, the cause of death, or Tyler's phone data. All they have is a complaint about reliable hearsay, which won't apply at the full trial anyway, and then attacks on the aggravating factors. If there is any merit at all to the theories that Candace, etcetera, have pushed in the last 11 months, why didn't the defense bring them up? I think there's a lot of, misunderstanding there. Why don't you, you straighten this out for us?
Gerard Filitti: Well, there's a lot to go through, but the simple high level version is that for these preliminary hearings and bind over, you don't need the same type of evidence and the same formality that you would need at actual trial. So you have under Utah law the ability to introduce reliable hearsay, which you cannot do at trial. You're looking to show that more likely than not, the evidence is sufficient to show that the person did the act that he was accused of committing. And what the defense has been arguing, essentially, they're not arguing that the evidence itself doesn't exist or is flawed. They're arguing the process. They're arguing that some, some of it was hearsay and inadmissible. They're going to lose on that. And that pertains to verbal testimony, not the actual DNA evidence. But what the defense is mostly arguing is that there isn't enough to show that there is a reason to apply the death penalty. They're more challenging the aggravating factors that would to the application of a death penalty than the evidence themselves. They can still challenge the evidence at trial, they can still challenge the testimony at trial. But right now it looks like they're more in a position of challenging the application of the death penalty in order to potentially cut a plea or to drop the highest level of the offense and just have a murder charge without the death penalty on the table. So the rest of it, what the defense is arguing doesn't have to do with whether or not they believe the evidence is enough to convict, Tyler Robinson. Its positioning for is there enough evidence to move forward to trial? And I think that they're not contesting the actual evidence. They're contesting more some of the testimony in an attempt to lose the aggravating factors.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And in this limited circumstance, I mean, I think the key point was what you said. It's not that they've waived their ability to raise certain defenses about the evidence at trial. It's just that at this particular stage for the, the purpose of the preliminary hearing, that's not the defenses that they're raising. They're attacking, just the, the issues that they believe are relevant in order to not have the death penalty on the table, anymore. And I think that there's been some confusion on social media about the stages of trial and what exactly these particular arguments are advancing and what that does or does not do, in terms of the, the actual trial itself if we get there. And so, what would you encourage, people who are watching, you know, a lot of this on social media? I mean, I, I see a lot of, opinion that is driven by frankly, a misunderstanding of the legal process. And how can people who are watching some of this on social media, perhaps, or even listening to commentary, try to distinguish between what's accurate or maybe an opinion based on false understanding of the legal.
Gerard Filitti: Well, I think the biggest thing I would say is to wait until there is the bind over hearing on September 1 and the judge rules. I do expect that, Robinson will be bound over for trial. I think that's when people need to start paying attention. Everything that people have seen so far on TV is what normally is done behind closed doors in a grand jury. It's technical. It's highly technical. It's not something that average people can just kind of complete understand the significance of because it's not something that is meant to play out in public. Utah does it differently. In this case, it is a public and open preliminary, hearing. But in general, people should remember that what they're seeing now is a technical legal attack on charges that normally happens behind closed doors. And they should really start paying attention at the trial stage when they'd be seeing what they normally see, which is the full weight of evidence and the full, full range of legal defenses that are available at trial but not before.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, really well said. And so, you know, always be careful to make sure that you're listening to people who at least have, you know, a basis in legal expertise. I know that all of the guys over at TPSA are very well meaning. I think that their opinions obviously, against the, ridiculous stuff that Candace Owens and others are spouting. you Know again, is, is very well meaning but we need to have the understanding of what's going on in the legal process down first and then talk about it and then have opinions on that. So Jared Felitti really appreciate you always coming on and straightening that out for us. You can follow him on X and also the Lawfare Project and we will be right back with more.
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One year since the assassination of Charlie Kirk is rapidly approaching
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, as we are awaiting that that ruling from the judge in the Charlie Kirk case, which as our previous guest Jared Felitti said is expected to come down September 1st. we are also rapidly approaching the one year mark since the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And the commentary and the just vitriol that has been on social media surrounding this, especially from people like Candace Owens has just been demonic. There's really no other word for it. And Jon, Doyle from BlazeTV says that the two best things that, that could have happened to the left were the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the blame for it being completely dissipated. Here's what he had to say recently on his podcast.
John Doyle: The two best things that could have happened to the left, just to kind of distill it for you, were the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the blame for it being completely dissipated. It's the best two things that could have happened to them. The best two Things that could have happened to Candace Owens were the assassination of Charlie Kirk and her being able to grift off it for social media content. It's literally the greatest thing to have happened to her in years. Just like the left, the left had been really, taking some Ls. They tried everything they could to stop Trump. Couldn't do it, lose the election, which they maybe shouldn't have lost. It's okay, they got an assassination. They took out Charlie Kirk, they took out the guy who was actually winning hearts and minds. The only guy who could do it. Especially within the younger generation, Candace Owens, very similarly, her show was going downhill. No one really gave a about her. It's like, okay, you're like based black woman, but now you're doing this like Ellen De genre style talk show. I don't really understand. Nobody gave a. She saw an opportunity with the anti Zionism stuff. Now she sees further opportunity by bringing in the true crime stuff, combining these two very popular genres into this one Charlie Kirk saga. It was the greatest thing to happen to her. The combination of those two things. The, assassination of her friend Charlie Kirk and the ability of her to use social media's bias to her advantage because the big tech companies didn't all of a sudden decide that they like conservatives, they're going to favor this kind of content. If I talk about a conspiracy theory, I get in trouble. But if Candace Owens creates one out of nothing to dissipate the ire people felt towards the left because of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, all of a sudden, it's great. It's great for her.
John Doyle: Charlie Kirk's death has left a void in conservative politics
Jenna Ellis: Well, let's welcome in, Jon Doyle. And you know, I think that you express this incredibly well. And, and it's so unfortunate that, in the midst of what should have been something that allowed for a coalescing of the right of Christians, of anyone rational to say this type of political violence should never happen in our country. suddenly, a year later, instead of seeing revival and this kind of, ah, coalescing, we're seeing, I think, even more fracturing among the right, which is just playing into the left's hands. where do we go from here?
John Doyle: Good morning. And it's a really good question. That was the thing about what Charlie Kirk was doing over at Turning Point usa. You know, a lot of people who are maybe apolitical only knew about him because of his podcast or because of his, you know, Instagram reels or something. But that was really not even maybe the most important work he was doing. He was working behind the scenes as a coalition builder, as a guy who could keep everybody together behind a unified cause. And, and when you don't have that kind of leadership, what you'll have in the immediate aftermath is a lot of emotional outpour, which is understandable. But then the influencer class rears its ugly head to debate who's going to fill the shoes? Who's going to be the next Charlie Kirk? And as we've seen, nobody has filled those shoes. There is no next Charlie Kirk. And everything has just been more, just confused and divided than ever. And people have exploited that for their own gain by embracing leftist positions such as Candace Owens. In trying to dissipate the energy that Americans felt conservative Americans, or just normal Americans felt against the left, seeing how, like millions of their family members and co workers were celebrating the guy who they'd seen just trying to talk to kids about issues on college campuses, be brutally assassinated and leave behind a young widow and two children.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I mean, it's just, it's so sad that the, that even on the right, that's the response is to immediately, you know, have this kind of, podcast to stand. You know, the influencers kind of rise up and say, okay, this is an opportunity for me. Instead of recognizing that the broader goals of the movement. And you know what, Charlie, the void that Charlie left, was so much more palpable. and I think that we all, myself included, didn't even appreciate, while he was still alive, how much he was a coalition builder and was pointing toward, true conservatism and values instead of just, the grifting or the attempt to, you know, get clicks and views, he was really doing what he was doing for sake of the nation. And, and I don't see a lot of the influencer class, having that same motivation. And when we're talking specifically about young people, the issues of that are important to them, like, unfortunately, you know, the America Only segment and also this affordability issue and this kind of trend toward socialism, we are really missing a voice like Charlie's on college campuses. And how much of that void do you think plays into potentially the outcome of the midterms?
John Doyle: I think it's going to be pretty significant. Fortunately, it's not necessarily the end of the world. A lot of young people aren't really even engaged politically anyway, and to the extent that they are, they tend to be naturally more leftist. However, Charlie was doing a very good job making inroads with Gen Z and with millennials who actually do tend to have a somewhat center right disposition. I think the reason that, Republicans are losing, the youth to ideas of socialism is because for the last several decades, we haven't really meaningfully addressed the two issues which have contributed to that, which are immigration and general affordability. we have a lot of Gen Z grifting or drifting towards socialism because a lot of Gen Z is like first generation immigrants or people coming from countries which are more collectivist, which are more socialist in nature, and they don't assimilate. And so naturally, when they see a guy who's promising to conserve America or a guy who's promising what's America, I'll give you free stuff, unfortunately, they tend to side with the latter more than the former. And I think then to the extent that, Gen Z is still, you know, real stock American, we still don't want to gravitate toward Republicans because a lot of Republicans haven't meaningfully addressed the fact that, you know, home ownership is no longer a reasonable expectation by the time you're 30 years old. We and millennials are like the first generation in America to ever really encounter that. And it doesn't mean that, you know, we're entitled and demanding free housing. We just want the same standard of living that we know our parents had and that we know our grandparents had. And if the one party is saying, now you just have to work harder and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and the other party is saying, what, those guys are crazy and hate you. We'll give it to you for free. That may not work on paper and it may be a lie. However, they're at least trying to engage with the youth and sometimes people just need to be heard out. And Charlie, Kirk, J.D. vance, these kind of like younger millennial GOP figures are the only people, at least in my memory, who are actually trying to meet young people where they are on their issues and say, look, we're not going to give you anything for free. However, there's a boot on your neck and we can get that off so that you can maybe have something approximating the American dream.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And you know, one of the things that I loved about what Charlie did was that he never made excuses or, you know, tried to, just dismiss the concerns. Like what we see from a lot of, unfortunately the GOP figureheads. I mean, a lot of these talking points from, people even like Speaker Johnson, you know, it seems like they kind of dismiss the concerns and say, well, you know, just trust us, bro. You know, and that isn't going to go very far. And, and some of the things that Charlie did. And what I also do see JD Vance doing incredibly well is acknowledging the problem, but saying, listen, the left doesn't have the solutions. Here's where we need to head. And then, so they're, they're addressing the problem, saying, yes, I agree with you. Making, the people who are engaging in good faith feel understood and seen, and then they're saying, okay, let's work together to solve the problem. I don't see a, ah, lot of the GOP writ large doing that in terms of actually attempting to drive coalitions. It's sort of, you know, sit down, shut up and trust us. And there's a wide segment of millennials, myself included, and the younger generation who are just really fed up with that.
John Doyle: Yeah, it's absolutely true. I mean, I think that the charitable interpretation would be, we obviously know that socialism doesn't work. We know that managed economies are a very silly idea, to put it nicely. But you still have to sell your vision for the country to younger voters who unfortunately maybe don't know things that would have been common sense in previous generations. And yeah, it's like you're saying, you know, if you're just going to write those concerns off and tell them that they need to go do their homework or go do the research by their self, if the other person's willing to meet them where they are and say, we hear you, we understand these concerns, and here's an idea for how to go about that. It's going to win nine times out of 10 versus somebody who's saying, you know, your concerns are ultimately your fault or ultimately, you know, unsolvable.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. And so Jon Doyle, you know, where do you think then that after the MAGA era? Because right now I think the coalition is, being held together by at least, a lot of these, splits from the establishment GOP who has at least reconciled enough with Trump that they're willing to follow him. and then you have some that really genuinely love him, like Lindsey Graham did, like Speaker Johnson, all the way to, you know, then some of these gen, zers who really like Trump, he's kind of held this coalition together, but in a post Trump world, which we're going to increasingly talk about as soon as the midterms m are over, that's just naturally, you know, where we end up in kind of the lame duck territory and looking for a successor. How important is it to have someone at the helm that can genuinely Be a coalition driver.
John Doyle: it is literally the most important thing. It is the most important consideration. A lot of establishment GOP types have kind of tacitly assimilated into the Trump era and maybe they keep their mouths shut about how much they dislike Trump. But these people have been working in politics long before Trump took it up as a hobby and they would like things to go back to how they were before. The American public literally cannot afford for that to happen. Donald Trump and his political movement is single handedly responsible for every net positive I have seen in my lifetime, which maybe isn't the longest time. I'm only 26. But if that becomes a debate again where it's up for grabs and we have to debate between whether we should continue doing what is obviously working, even if not as quickly as we would like, or go back to something which was obviously not working, that's going to be very problematic. And that's also why leftist media outlets have loved amplifying this idea of the MAGA Civil war. NewSong York Times writes about it, the Atlantic writes about it. They're very much trying to amplify and pour gas on this whole thing because they love the idea that we're going to be divided going into 2028 because they would hate nothing more than seeing a unified coalition succeed Trump and go into somebody like JD Vance at JD Vance 2028, which I think is absolutely the move. I think that he's great on the issues. I think that he understands what Trump's administration has been about. I think that's obviously why he was chosen to be the vice president lobby for heavily by Charlie Kirk, of course. And so going into that, I think, we're going to be in a very good position if we can keep our heads on straight.
Jenna Ellis: Well, it'll be interesting to see whether, you know, he's the type of guy that will be able to, be the coalition driver and be the man. I think that's going to be the central question, but it's a fascinating one.
John Doyle: Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
We've got to end here. Jon Doyle, really appreciate having you. Hope to have you on again soon. you can follow him at Jon Doyle and also follow the Blaze and as always, you can reach me and my team. Jennaafr.net. PreBorn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion and every day their network clinics rescue 200 babies lives. Will you join PreBorn in loving and supporting young moms in crisis? Save a life today? Go to preborn.com afr.
Jenna Ellis discusses the profound implications of the Lindsey Clancy murder trial, focusing on mental health issues and the responsibility of the church in addressing these crises. Joined by Tim Clinton, president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, they delve into the complexities of mental illness, the role of medication, and the need for a deeper understanding of human suffering from a biblical perspective. This conversation challenges listeners to consider whether society is truly treating mental illness or merely medicating a culture in crisis.
(00:00) Jenna Ellis: When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound it's divine connection
(01:02) America is facing a mental health crisis that seems to deepen with every generation
(02:51) Tim Cl is president of the American association of Christian Counselors
(09:35) Jenna says the church has misstepped in Christian mental health
(16:45) Jenna Ellis: Let's get people trained inside the church on mental health
(20:05) Lindsey Clancy's defense argues she suffered from postpartum psychosis
(29:43) Gerard Felitti: There's some confusion about Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing
(36:26) 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing baby on ultrasound
(37:49) One year since the assassination of Charlie Kirk is rapidly approaching
(40:13) John Doyle: Charlie Kirk's death has left a void in conservative politics
(49:59) John Doyle: Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
Jenna Ellis discusses the profound implications of the Lindsey Clancy murder trial, focusing on mental health issues and the responsibility of the church in addressing these crises. Joined by Tim Clinton, president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, they delve into the complexities of mental illness, the role of medication, and the need for a deeper understanding of human suffering from a biblical perspective. This conversation challenges listeners to consider whether society is truly treating mental illness or merely medicating a culture in crisis.
(00:00) Jenna Ellis: When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound it's divine connection
(01:02) America is facing a mental health crisis that seems to deepen with every generation
(02:51) Tim Cl is president of the American association of Christian Counselors
(09:35) Jenna says the church has misstepped in Christian mental health
(16:45) Jenna Ellis: Let's get people trained inside the church on mental health
(20:05) Lindsey Clancy's defense argues she suffered from postpartum psychosis
(29:43) Gerard Felitti: There's some confusion about Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing
(36:26) 80% of abortion vulnerable women choose life after seeing baby on ultrasound
(37:49) One year since the assassination of Charlie Kirk is rapidly approaching
(40:13) John Doyle: Charlie Kirk's death has left a void in conservative politics
(49:59) John Doyle: Preborn has rescued over 400,000 babies from abortion
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