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Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview. The U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government.
Reflecting on 9/11, Its Impact on Security, Privacy, and the Shift in American Society's Values
I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Friday, September 11, 2026, which means that this is the 25th anniversary of 9 11, 2001, which of course changed the direction of American and world history through the events in NewSong York. And the terrorists plot to take down the two World Trade center buildings. And then of course, the one plane that was likely, ah, destined for, for you know, some place in D.C. that ended up being foiled by some really amazing, heroes on board. And you know, I remember on 9 11, I was, was interning actually for the Colorado lieutenant governor, you know, back when we were still Republicans in Colorado. and and I remember, you know, that day, previous to that you could just walk into the state capitol. I mean there was no security, there were no metal detectors. I mean that was the era before 9 11. And then everything changed. I mean there was a lockdown, at the Capitol. Nobody knew what was happening. and then of course the metal detectors came very swiftly and all of this changed, what we perceive with, security and our relationship, I think with privacy and what we're willing, to give up in the name of security. And so a lot of debates have happened in the aftermath of some of our constitutionally protected rights, how the government should interfere and intervene, but also the culture.
Debating Tolerance and Justice: Comparing 9/11's Legacy to Modern Debates on Ideology and Faith
And you know, one of the big debates currently is over Zoran AH Mamdani, who of course is the NewSong York City mayor, who is a Muslim. And the fact that he, gave one of the, commemorative 9 11, pens as he was signing, one of those declarations this Past week, to one of his aides who was one of the Al Qaeda defense attorneys on 9 11. And there was a lot of public outrage about that. And there should be, because how do you go in the span of 25 years from never forget, and you know, my family has a little Christmas ornament of the American flag from 2001 saying, you know, united we stand, never forget, and being, you know, these are ardent patriot, saying we will avenge and secure our nation to now electing Muslims to office and suggesting that religious pluralism in this country is just fine because, you know, we need to love everybody, affirm their actions, and we can't call evil evil anymore. I mean, you look at the Lindsay Clancy trial, you can't call evil because some call, that evil, because somehow we need to sympathize with her alleged postpartum psychosis to the point that we don't want justice for her three murdered children. I mean, this is the span of where 25 years can get you. So, to discuss all of this, and of course bring this back to the biblical worldview is my very dear friend, Gino Gerace, who is, a pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel South Denver, one of the pastors and great mentors of my life, and also was a 911 first responder, actually in the immediate aftermath of that tragic event. And, and also has been an FBI chaplain. So, a lot, to, to talk about Gino. And, you know, as you are sitting here on the 25th anniversary of that absolutely horrendous day, and then looking at our current culture, what are you thinking?
The Ideological Divide: Responding to Harmful Beliefs and the Shift in Cultural Values Over 25 Years
Gino Geraci: You know, Jenna, my thoughts, like many people, go from the great big ideas to the more specific ideas. And you've talked at length on the ideological divide that was marked by Charlie Kirk's murder. And then, 9 11, which was way before that. And again, as we've sort of talked about that idea, the great big Muslim idea, the Al Qaeda thing, the, you know, what really happened. I'm thinking about how we've sort of underestimated, the political divide, the ideological divide, and then asking and answering the questions, how do we respond? How do we respond to these ideological divides, whether they're coming from, the transgender lgbtq, ideological mafia versus Al Qaeda. And so I go from that great big idea and then to your point, how things have shifted in a 25 year period where there's a growing, I'm going to use the word, either indifference or even support for ideologies. That are quite literally harmful, that could be argued fatal, to the way we live and the future that we may or may not have?
Jenna Ellis: M. Yeah. And it's so important to go from those bigger concepts that should be foundational and then, follow that line of logic into, what we see in the everyday.
Foundational Values to Public Policy: The Erosion of Truth and the Rise of Toxic Empathy
Because that's how we get from our foundational values into public policy or into parenting or into, church discipline or, you know, church membership or all of. All of these, these very practical considerations in the three institutions that God has ordained. And so what, and that's when it's good, right? Like we're building on the Christian foundation, and then that outflows into, how we behave in those institutions and what we strive for in our policy and our rulemaking. so where have we gotten in terms of the philosophy that has been so off the mark that from 25 years ago or even 250 years ago, we now find ourselves in the culture that today is poised to elect socialists and Muslims and progressivists and people who are godless populace and all. All kinds of other, ah, false and outright pagan at times, worldviews.
Gino Geraci: Yeah. You know, I can't help but think of Gad Saad's great book about toxic empathy, where here we take a biblical kind of a view. Just. And, you know, you hinted at it with Lindsey Clancy's, incredible trial that how is it possible that you can come to a place of such empathy and compassion where you say, hey, I really feel for a person who's mentally and emotionally distressed. You know, one juror even has publicly said, you know, the reason why I wanted to acquit her is because she needs help. But to your point. Well, again, we're not opposed to people who are mentally and emotionally disturbed getting help. But then how do you bring the subject of justice forward? And so imagine we're living in a pluralistic society where there is religious liberty. But again, maybe you talked about it. I'm trying to remember the public official who said that our Constitution is not a suicide pact. In other words, the freedoms that we have were never meant to be the freedom to kill yourself. And so here we have this strange situation where, in the name of compassion and plurality, we are quite literally distancing ourselves culturally from the things we hold dearest.
Jenna Ellis: M. Yeah. And, you know, and it seems like the sparkle or the attraction of these false ideologies, are becoming more pervasive in the church because we haven't, by we meaning, you know, the broader Christian, swath in America have not been as educated substantively, theologically to perceive why things like, for example, toxic empathy are not actually biblical. And. And if we are going to respond biblically and call out falsity, we have to first know what the truth is.
Gino Geraci: Right? And then you have to have.
John the Baptist's Courage: Calling Out Immorality and the Silencing of Truthful Voices
I'm going to use the term m. Clarity and courage. And you know, Jenna, all of this reminds me of, of the biblical story of Jon the Baptist. You'll remember Jon the. And this is kind of an interesting little aside. You'll remember that Jon the Baptist and Jesus were only born about nine months apart. And we have every reason to believe that maybe Jesus was crucified, in his mid-30s, about the same age as Charlie Kirk. And so imagine in your biblical setting as you're imagining the political settings and the cultural and social interactions of a Jon the Baptist, he's about the same age as Charlie Kirk, and he is calling out the powers that be for immoral behavior. And you'll remember the story that, Herod's wife and the dancing daughter want to shut down Jon the Baptist's mouth. And so in that moment of passion and promise, he agrees to have him killed, have his head cut off so that his voice would be silent, so he would shut his mouth. And so here we are, you know, we're talking about 9 11.
From Public Tragedy to Celebrated Evil: The Cultural Shift in Response to Violence and Injustice
We're talking about Charlie Kirk, you know, 25 years later, one year later. And so you see this very public thing happen in NewSong York and in Washington. You see this very public thing happen in Utah, where a person is murdered right before your eyes. He shot in the throat, and there is blood literally gushing out of his throat. And so in the hopes that he would shut his mouth. And then I'm thinking one year later, TikTok videos celebrating his murder. I'm just thinking about the depth of evil and wickedness that has sort of enveloped our country where people would celebrate such profound perversity and evil and wickedness and not even be able to tell that it is perverse and wicked and evil. And so, again, we need clarity and courage now for Jon the Baptist, it really is going to cost him his life. they're going to shut his mouth, but they're not going to shut his message. And that's what I'm wondering about. 9 11. I'm wondering if there's going to be some sort of pushback. You know, we saw it briefly and Jenny, you experienced it firsthand, where after, Charlie Kirk's murder, there was A kind of a palpable change. College chapters for turning point USA, they had 410 registered before his birth, 1095 afterwards. They had high level clubs, went from 454 to 3000.
Cultural Shifts Post-9/11 and Charlie Kirk's Murder: Examining Societal Indifference and a Search for Meaning
There was more than 120,000 chapter inquiries. there was over another million Bibles sold. I think there was a kind of a, What's the word I'm looking for? There was a kind of impulse culturally that, that people were asking the question about the meaning of life and whether or not there is such a thing as good and evil and right and wrong. And so, you know, that I'm just wondering like 911 and like Charlie Kirk and like Columbine, can you believe it that once we distance ourselves from a historical event that there's a kind of sad indifference that begins to swallow us. And so that's why we have to have these conversations. And that's. So appreciate what you do. Constantly reminding your audience we have to think about these things.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said. And I'm speaking with Gino Gerasi, pastor, emeritus of Calvary Chapel South Denver. And does a lot of great work in theology and in you know, all of these topics and especially in the biblical worldview. And you know, isn't it, isn't it interesting as you were talking to Sarah, see the cultural response, you know, overall, the response on mainstream media, on, you know, we didn't really have social media at the time, but you know, even just person, to person, the difference between the response in the immediate aftermath of 911 versus the immediate aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder and the contrast of how people were willing to stand up and say this was evil, this was wrong. And look at you know, those who were willing to lay down their lives to take down the planes, the heroes that went into to the buildings to try to get people out.
The Dramatic Shift in Societal Values: From 9/11 Unity to Rationalizing Violence and Devaluing Life
I mean all of those things and nobody that I'm aware of even going back and listening to clips, you know, nobody was sitting there glorifying the murders and no one was, was saying, well, you know, I wonder if these Al Qaeda members were just troubled or they just, you know, suffered from psychosis or you know, tried empathize with, you know, the backstory of, of what happened. I mean we didn't live in this cultural moment of total affirmation of anyone's choices like we are seeing with some of these people who are actually rationalizing and justifying Charlie, Kirk's murder on the basis of, well, you know, he had hate speech or he had, he said things that we disagreed with, or you know, looking into his, his alleged murder, Tyler Robinson's backstory and well, you know, we can understand why he was in the place to do what he did. I mean those kinds of, of totally different reactions by mainstream public, and even mainstream news outlets are just so radically different that you have to again come back to the question, what happened in the last 25 years that would cause society to make such a dramatic shift?
Gino Geraci: And let's pull that thread just for a moment. Imagine 25 years ago, there are people who say, you know what, we had it coming. We deserved what they did. And then fast forward to Charlie Kirk. he had it coming. He deserved what he got. Now Lindsay, the woman who murdered her children, hey, guess what? those children had it coming. Now think about the Massachusetts law which you've also talked about. She killed her eight month old baby. But imagine that she had retained just if 10 months earlier she had just made the decision to kill her unborn child in utero 10 months earlier, there would be no legal repercussions whatsoever. How does, how did we come to this?
The Loss of God at Society's Center: Arbitrary Justice and the Erosion of Objective Truth Standards
How, how is it possible that our culture and its values could be so dark and disconnected from a biblical worldview?
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and you know, and, and as you're describing that the sheer arbitrary nature of what our law is now reflecting of the sentiment of society to say it's okay to murder a child up until birth in some states now, and now to say, well, it's okay to even murder, you know, your your seven year old, your five year old, if you have, if you suffer from, you know, this particular psychosis, or it's okay if we, if we arbitrarily conclude the lives of the elderly, if we don't in our arbitrary judgment determine that they're valuable to society. I mean the, the total arbitrary nature of this shows the lack of respect and understanding of the value of human life. And that's a big part of what has changed. And the, and there are a lot of different, specific ways that, that we could point out that society has changed in terms of the worldview. But the 30,000 foot perspective of this is that when we have lost God at the center of society and saying that all truth and goodness flows from God and that society must reflect that in our law, in our policy, in our communities, and we substitute God for our truth and our perception, that is completely arbitrary, that's where we go wrong. Because then there's no fixed objective standard, and justice becomes, well, you know, whatever we happen to think on any particular trial, whatever, you know, Massachusetts may think compared to, you know, my now home state of Florida, compared to Colorado, where you're at, you know, it. It's completely different depending on circumstances, on states, on whims of the 12 that are seated, or governors or legislatures, instead of being objective. And a society cannot persist in its morality and in its order, being a well ordered society without having truth at the center and that objective standard. And that's what I think, overall, what we've missed.
Events as Rorschach Tests: Ideological Divisions, Rationalization, and the Need for Clarity and Civility
Gino Geraci: Yeah. You know, again, as we think about this broad, great big conversation we're having about 9 11, as we're talking about Charlie Kirk, as we're talking about the sad and tragic case of this woman murdering her children, you know what each of those things also did, they provided a kind of functional Rorschach test. So imagine you're watching 9 11, you're watching Charlie Kirk, you're watching this trial. And immediately people divide into separate ideological camps as they're trying to interpret what they're seeing. and then to your point, rationalizing a, plausible but untrue excuse of why they're doing what they're doing. Political violence, moral responsibility, grief. And so they're all thrown into this pot and we're stirring it. And so if ever there was a time for clarity and charity and civility, it's like right now. And Charlie Kirk obviously wanted to have a conversation. You'll remember that you reached out to Vance Jones, literally the day before he was murdered, and said, hey, can't we have a conversation?
The Decline of Truth Seeking: From Intellectual Discourse to Bias Confirmation and Emotional Reasoning
Can't we talk about this in a way where nobody has to get hurt? And Jenna, you know, you have been the cruel, victim of people who attack you. They literally don't want to have a conversation and then talk about the ideas and then examine them on, on the merit of logic and evidence and common sense.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. It's so true that for many people in society today, and this is both on the left and the right, unfortunately, many people are not seeking truth, they're seeking bias confirmation. And so whatever they want to be the truth, or whatever they personally believe they're going to advocate for, in spite of what, overwhelming evidence to the contrary, or in spite of being told, well, you misunderstand, you know, this, this particular thing, or you haven't considered this, or here's perhaps new evidence. and it's really been remarkable to me to see, I mean, that that used to be a failing more on the left that they were just so entrenched in their, you know, their progressive sort of secular thinking that they couldn't be persuaded. But you could at least have the conversations rationally on the right. I mean, that's, that's the basis of why we've historically always held conferences, right, and, and had instead of all of these viral videos and the kumbaya moments of everybody just having all the feels. The right was known for its intellectualism and wanting to come to an understanding and a well ordered society and policy that made sense, right? And now it's like all of this has shifted so far left that even people who think they're on the right are given to feelings and emotions and beliefs and bias that aren't grounded in fact or even sometimes reality. And they will not be convinced of that because they, they somehow think that if they admit that they have something to learn or that, oh, that's different than what I thought. But you know, thank you for telling me the truth that that somehow makes them lose their integrity instead of understanding that integrity means that, that you should want to always be seeking the truth and uprightness. I mean literally having integrity means that it's solid, that the foundation. If you're talking about the integrity of the building, you know, we're talking about 9 11.
Losing Societal Integrity: The Shift from Objective Truth to Subjective Perspectives and Relative Reality
The integrity of the building is that it can't be shaken and it is, it is built on a proper foundation. So structural integrity means that even when winds come, rains, you know, all of these things, it will stand firm. And that's the definition of integrity that we've lost as a society. And we don't even understand which way is up anymore because up is relative. And so we have this sort of standpoint epistemology of just, well, whatever my perspective is, that's truth. Instead of recognizing that truth is outside of ourselves. And no matter our perspective, our belief or what we want it to be, truth is regardless of my opinion. And if you try to tell somebody that in today's society, they're gonna get mad at you, because they don't want that objective standpoint. But, but Gino, we've got to take a break here and he's going to continue on with me into the next segment. And we are, talking of course about the 25th anniversary of 9 11, talking about the murder of Charlie Kirk a year ago and the cultural differences, between just where society has been with these two, very important events to American and world history. We'll be right back.
The Enduring Importance of Truth and Foundation: A Conversation on Current Events and Biblical Worldview
Hi, I'm Jenna Ellis, did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net for forward SLG. That's afr.net give welcome back to Jenna
Gino Geraci: Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio. Welcome back.
Jenna Ellis: And I'm here with my special guest Gino Jurassi, who is the pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel South Denver and also was a 911 first responder, in the immediate aftermath of that event 25 years ago today and has been an FBI chaplain, has served in a variety of capacities in both the, the church government, of course has a family of his own, but then also talks about the truth in society and our community, our body politic and why that ultimately matters and has to be predicated on a foundation of truth. And so as we're talking about, you know, all of these, these questions that are, that are really big questions, you know, we've, we've seen, been talking about also the difference in just where the culture was at 25 years ago compared to a year ago, with 9 11, 2001 versus September 10th of 2025 and Charlie Kirk's murder.
The Church's Role in Culture: Engaging Politically or Remaining Silent Amidst Moral and Societal Shifts
And not just society as a whole. But how do you think, Gino, the church overall in America kind of writ large, if we can generalize a little bit, how has the church response been either the same or different?
Gino Geraci: You know, I think about that question in a kind of almost polarizing term. And let me tell you what I mean by that. Because you have the people who want to engage politically without regard to biblical truth, but you also have the indifferent people who are, silent. In other words, they're saying, you know what, I'm not going to enter into the political arena because this is all politics. But again, what you've rightly talked about over the years is politics. Remember we talked about how that's truth and community. And then we talk about the moral questions and then why is it that when you have a biblical view or a biblical worldview, that our influence is the one influence that has to be silenced. And so I think that part of the church's failure is to refuse to take seriously what it means to be salt and light in a culture because again, like Jon the Baptist, we're unwilling to pay the price.
Moral Courage and Truth Telling: The Christian Imperative to Be Salt and Light in Public Life
Well, what if they cut my head off? In order to keep me from, to keep my mouth shut. And so you've got these growing group of people who literally are saying, hey, you know what? I think I'm going to tell the truth about gender ideology. I'm going to tell the truth about justice. I'm going to tell the truth about the human condition and what it means to be a human. And so, to me, you can't do that. You will not have the moral courage to do that. Not just simply with a biblical understanding of the truth, but I'm going to use the term then having, being motivated to live out that truth in a public setting. I know this sounds very, very simple, but I think that that's the answer. And so here's the church, and the church says, I'm going to teach you the truth, but then I'm going to encourage you to be salt and light to live out that truth in the real public setting in which you live. And so that's the challenge, isn't it?
Jenna Ellis: It is. And having courage, has always been the challenge. We even see that through, the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before.
A 9/11 First Responder's Perspective: Witnessing Tragedy and Questioning Value in the Aftermath
And that's a perfect moment, I think, to ask, you to share some of what you experienced as a first responder on 9 11.
Gino Geraci: Yeah, let me tell you my very first response. you know, when I came to this 15 acre facility that used to be the Twin Towers, so I can remember I got Skip heights again and I, along with Franklin Graham, we got there on Sunday night and then we were. So it happened on Tuesday. We fly in, you know, the airspace is closed.
The Devastation of 9/11: Describing Rescue Efforts, Grief, and the Profound Loss at Ground Zero
We're there in rescue and recovery mode on Sunday, and then we're on, on literal on at ground zero on Monday. And Jenna, my first thought was, how could something so valuable become so worthless so quickly? So I'm thinking about the 3,000 plus people who are dead. I am smelling death and I am smelling jet fuel and I am seeing trash and there is toxic waste all around me. And so again, you talk about first responders. Remember, we are going to a place putting ourselves at physical harm, possible risk, possible future health problems, but we go. And so I, can remember doing the rescue and the recovery. I can remember the weeping firemen. I can remember the wanted posters of loved ones who desperately want to find their loved ones. I remember being at ground zero and then going to the family center as people are weeping and crying, desperate to find their loved ones.
The Unimaginable Aftermath: Dealing with Identifying Victims and Delivering Devastating News Post-9/11
And then I spent part of my time at the morgue, Jenna, as people are Sifting through DNA as we're trying to figure out who's alive and who's dead. And then imagine not just one or two, but imagine 10, 20, 100 people coming up and then having that very difficult conversation that your loved one is gone, that they're not coming back.
Jenna Ellis: And, I mean, it's just. It's unimaginable. And, you know, I remember seeing the contemporaneous footage, you know, in the day of. And the aftermath of all of that, you know, from Colorado. I was not there, didn't have an opportunity to actually visit, until, you know, a few years later. and of course, have now been at the Freedom Tower and, you know, seen, that museum and, you know, just all of the history that now that it, that it is. and I also remember, then fast forward to, college, a few years later. You know, this is only maybe four or five years later.
Journalism Ethics and Tragedy: Airing Disturbing Footage Versus Sanitizing Evil and Its Impact
I'm in college in, journalism. And one of the, you know, remarkable things that had never really occurred in, modern journalism was the decision of whether to actually air a live shot of what was going on as people were literally jumping from the buildings.
Gino Geraci: Right.
Jenna Ellis: And how that changed a lot of the ethics and questions in journalism of covering, you know, these types of events and tragedies and, you know, that term, ethics and the questions around it. do you think that there is a. A cultural view that we tend to want to sanitize some of the worst of humanity to the rest of the culture in a way that's actually doing a disservice to the public to show what is actually evil so that we can condemn it and we can see what it is that we're fighting against.
Gino Geraci: Yeah, what an interesting question. And I'm going to kind of turn the question around just for a moment, Jenna, because there's two. There's two ways of thinking about this. Okay?
The Spectrum of Reporting: Sanitizing Versus Sensationalizing Tragedy and the Trauma of Unseen Events
Think of sanitizing and sensationalizing as part of an arc or a spectrum. Are we going to sanitize it? Are we going to sensationalize it? but again, on either extreme, what if something gets lost? What if the actual message gets lost? And so here we are, you know, because again, I am a first responder. I have been a first responder at the most gruesome events in our at least recent history. Columbine, ground zero, the Aurora movie theater shooting. And there are certain things, Jenna, that once you see them, you can't unsee them. It never goes away. And so I'm particularly, aware of how certain Things traumatize people as you relive them. And so how do we, how do we have that balance? How, how do we. And again, you saw it with Charlie Kirk, and you saw it with Ground Zero and people jumping out of buildings and then the pictures of the three children who were murdered by their mother.
Shocking Sensibilities: Will Unprecedented Evil and Indifference Spur America to Course Correct?
Now imagine, do I have to see people jumping out of buildings? Do I have to watch the Charlie Kirk footage? Do I have to see the crime scene photos of these children who were strangled in their basement to be shocked into thinking something wicked, something evil, something horrible has happened? And what will it take to shock you into a sensible response? You know what I think about, because I'm always thinking about the Bible. You remember the story in the Book of Judges where this man has a concubine and she's gang raped, by people. There's a roving mob of people who engage in sexual assault. He chops her up into little pieces and then sends her mutilated body to the several tribes of Israel. And many people reading the Bible go, that's in the Bible? Yeah. Why is that in the Bible? How could that possibly be in the Bible? What possible function could it possibly serve? And you know what it did? It shocked the sensibilities of an indifferent people to unite as one and say, you know what? We can't do this anymore. There's something so wrong that we're going to need a united effort to course correct to your question. Then what will it take? M. What will it take to shock the sensibilities of the United States of America? Order to course correct.
Desensitization to Evil: What Will It Take for Society to Wake Up and Address Profound Wickedness?
Sorry.
Jenna Ellis: I think that's, so, so well said. And I think that is the question is what will it take? Because I would have honestly thought it would take a lot less. I was shocked watching this jury have 11 people who were willing to come to acquittal that easily and that quickly. And, you know, this one juror who says, okay, well, you know, there's, maybe there's doubt, but she's, guilty. And, and you know, the one sane person in the midst. You're saying the emperor has no clothes. I mean, that's, that's literally what it felt like to, to, to see that there's just this one lone juror that's willing to stand up and say no. And, and what will it take in a society that has been so overrun by so much noise and, and you know, you. We can get on demand, any sort of pornography, graphic content, horror movies, you know, slash and burn or whatever they call them. You know, all of this stuff that it has so desensitized us to evil? What honestly will it take? I mean, do you think it will take something that is profoundly, that profoundly touches our lives and our way of life and our comfort perhaps before we wake up and are willing to say the evil has to stop?
Gino Geraci: You know, I have a Jewish friend, you know, the antisemitism thing is a real problem as well.
The Peril of Indifference: How Numbing Emotions and Following Feelings Leads to a Loss of Courage
I have a Jewish friend who, who asked me the question which is worse? Seeing the evil for all that it is or being indifferent to that evil? In other words, here you have this oddly shocking situation where that we become desensitized to the evil, that nothing shocks us, that, that it's the indifference itself that becomes the genuine problem we have to struggle with.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I mean, there is a quotation I don't, remember, it was quoted on a television show, but I don't know where it originated, that that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. And there's a lot of truth to that. And when we see the profound indifference where people just don't care anymore. I mean, they don't care about the, the horrors that are perpetuated by criminals in this country. They don't care, whether, you know, society is overrun. I mean, a lot of this I personally think, is that indifference can be attributable to how over medicated we are as a society. Because if you completely desensitize your emotions and your feelings, I mean obviously, the. We do need to still say, you know, don't go based just on your feelings. But if you are so numbed to feeling anything, to even feeling the righteous anger or the, the anger that comes with injustice, and, and then you are being numbed to what it takes to have courage and, and to understand, what drives, human beings to be willing to stand up for the truth. And so, you know, this is obviously multifaceted.
The Devil's Strategy: Numbing Emotions Versus Affirming Feelings in a Culture Drifting from Truth
but I think that it's so interesting and worth pointing out that, you know, the devil has a strategy. And you see how all of these different tentacles have woven their way into society so that on one hand we're numbing out our emotions and on the other hand the emotions that are left, we're told to follow them, and to affirm anyone's life choices and to follow these blatantly false worldviews to the point that again, you know, we, we don't know which way is up. And this is where I think it falls on the Christians, the true Christians in society, to Say we are the ones. I mean, God always leaves a remnant. There are always the few that stand up in the face of evil. And we see that over and over again in biblical history, in world history. It's going to take the few that are willing to stand up and simply say, no, I. This is enough. Enough.
Gino Geraci: You know, there's an interesting movie.
The Call to Courage: Engaging in Both Government and Ministry While Remaining True to Biblical Identity
I. I think your mom and dad were playing it, at. At the church in Longmont. It was. I. I don't know if you remember the movie Amazing Grace, about Wilberforce, but there's a scene in the movie where the. Where the evangelicals are pressing William Wilberforce to keep fighting, to keep fighting the British slave trade through politics. And he confesses, you know, at least dramatically in this movie, he's torn between being an advocate in government and saying, why, I am just going to simply do the work of God. And their response was, we humbly suggest that you do both. And I thought, yes, sometimes it isn't an either or proposition. Sometimes we have to do both. Sometimes we have to engage and. But still remain true to our biblical identity as followers of Jesus.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, absolutely. And even in the face of when, you know, others fall away, or they just say, you know, this is too much for me, or I'm gonna, bend either to the mob because I'm scared of them, or to even, you know, our. Our friends on our side who sometimes are. Are misperceiving the situation, or they're not willing to stand up for the truth.
Walking with Christ: The Courage to Follow the Lord Regardless of Opposition or Personal Cost
And, you know, you may want. Not want to disappoint them or you want to go along with basically peer pressure. I mean, all of this comes down to courage to follow the Lord regardless. And even if you walk alone, you will never be alone because you're walking with Christ. And. And this is where we, need to come to that moment, as everyone has to in their own Christian life, to say, I am willing to follow the Lord, come what may. And. And that is a very courageous statement because we can't say that lightly, because come what may, I mean, there are a lot of Christian martyrs who have said that, who have come before us, that it literally cost them everything to serve the Lord. And the point is, it is worth it. And that, that, frame of mind and understanding the value of what the Lord offers and the Christian life offers compared to what the world offers, that's the distinction.
Sustaining in Crisis: The Importance of a Right Relationship with God Amidst Life's Ultimate Challenges
And I see, you know, even just in my own life of Christians that I know who aren't even willing to, you know, get up and go to church regularly on Sunday because it's too hard or, well, you know, we have football practice with our kids or, you know, all of these other distractions. It's like they don't see the value of the Christian life and of doing what we're called to, because that's what's so worth it.
Gino Geraci: And you know what's really interesting about what you just said, Jenna? That's not going to sustain you in the moment of crisis you've experienced. Personal crisis. I've dealt with crisis most of my adult life. what's going to sustain you? What's going to sustain you when you find out your child was murdered? What's going to sustain you if you get a cancer diagnosis? What's going to sustain you in that moment of deep and dark difficulty? The only thing that's going to sustain you is to have a right relationship with the Lord through the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, again, you know, I'm constantly. I've made a commitment, Jenna, that I don't want to talk about the brokenness of this world without also giving fair time to the promises of redemption and the promises that God affords us. So that's part of the way that I think we cool the conversation. We do both.
Truth as a Roaring Lion: Allowing Truth and Justice to Prevail in a Fallen World
And, hopefully, you know, I'm reminded of what Charles Spurgeon was said when, somebody said, how are you going to defend Jesus? And he goes, I have no need to defend Jesus. Jesus, I will simply let him out of his cage like a roaring lion. And you just go, there is a sense, as you already know, that truth will make its way forward, that justice will make its way forward, that that reality will, in fact, have a say in the way we process things.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, well, Gina, we have to end this here.
The Foundation of Hope: Focusing on Truth Amidst Cultural and Historical Challenges
but I certainly so appreciate this conversation. And we have to focus on truth, and that is our only hope. And so thank you so much for, joining me to talk about all of these important things. And, you should follow Gino on X. And we'll be right back with more.
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Gino Geraci: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Learning from History: The Critical Importance of Truth, Eternity, and Biblical Worldview for Society
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, I spent so much time talking to Gino because that was such an excellent and substantive conversation that we only have about three minutes left before the end of the show. And this is why the hour just goes by so quickly, but why I love having these conversations not just about the events that we need to remember and the facts of what's going on in, in the news and in, in, in history that we should know, you know, where we've come so we know where we're going. But we need to always ask ourselves the questions, why? Why does this matter? And not just that it matters to us, but why does it matter to eternity? And we always need to be looking not just forward but upward and saying, what can I learn from where we've been, where we are currently, where we're going? and what can I learn about the standard of truth so that I can be the best citizen, in society, the best member and hopefully, active, participant in ministry or my church and the best role in my family. If you are a husband, wife, son, daughter, all of us have those roles in our families, in our churches. If you're not part of a local church, please find one. get involved. We are called to be members of our local church community and we are members of our civil society and we can't advocate for, for a moral and upright society without first knowing the truth and knowing the standard that we are supposed to bear. we can't stand up for courage when we don't know what it is we are standing up for. And so, so many of the lies that have come at us over the last 25 years, in this culture and how there is such a difference in our culture between where we were in 2001 compared to where we are today in 2026. And that difference has been the slow and sometimes rapid encroachment of lies, of either selling a completely opposite paradigm to the Christian worldview, or, even more insidiously, a false view of Jesus.
Discerning Truth from Lies: The Value of Substantive Bible Teaching in Displacing Deception
A meek and milder, a gentler, a affirming, even socialist kind of form of Jesus that is not the biblical truth. And so my encouragement on this, anniversary of, 9 11, 2001 is to get into a church that substantively teaches the truth of God and know that there is significant eternal value in understanding what the Bible teaches and dedicating yourself to knowing scripture from Cove to cover, knowing the things of God, the things of truth, so that we can dispuse ourselves of the lies of the devil and we can point them out and we can recognize them because we know the truth. Be daily in the Word. Get into a Bible study, get into a class, get into a church that teaches the things of God and the knowledge of truth. As always, you can reach me and my team. Jennaafr.net.
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Jenna Ellis: We would like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, PreBorn. When a mother meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their heartbeat, it's a divine connection. And the majority of the time she will choose life. But she can't do it without our help. Preborn needs us, the pro life community, to come alongside her. One ultrasound is just $28 and to donate dial pound250 and say the keyword baby or visit preborn.com afr Jenna Ellis in the morning on American Family Rad.
Jenna Ellis: I love talking about the things of God. Because of truth and the biblical worldview. The U.S. constitution obligates our government to preserve and protect the rights that our founders recognize come from God our creator, not our government.
Reflecting on 9/11, Its Impact on Security, Privacy, and the Shift in American Society's Values
I believe that scripture in the Bible is very clear that God is the one that raised up each of you and God has allowed us to be brought here to this specific moment in time. This is Jenna Ellis in the morning.
Jenna Ellis: Good morning. It is Friday, September 11, 2026, which means that this is the 25th anniversary of 9 11, 2001, which of course changed the direction of American and world history through the events in NewSong York. And the terrorists plot to take down the two World Trade center buildings. And then of course, the one plane that was likely, ah, destined for, for you know, some place in D.C. that ended up being foiled by some really amazing, heroes on board. And you know, I remember on 9 11, I was, was interning actually for the Colorado lieutenant governor, you know, back when we were still Republicans in Colorado. and and I remember, you know, that day, previous to that you could just walk into the state capitol. I mean there was no security, there were no metal detectors. I mean that was the era before 9 11. And then everything changed. I mean there was a lockdown, at the Capitol. Nobody knew what was happening. and then of course the metal detectors came very swiftly and all of this changed, what we perceive with, security and our relationship, I think with privacy and what we're willing, to give up in the name of security. And so a lot of debates have happened in the aftermath of some of our constitutionally protected rights, how the government should interfere and intervene, but also the culture.
Debating Tolerance and Justice: Comparing 9/11's Legacy to Modern Debates on Ideology and Faith
And you know, one of the big debates currently is over Zoran AH Mamdani, who of course is the NewSong York City mayor, who is a Muslim. And the fact that he, gave one of the, commemorative 9 11, pens as he was signing, one of those declarations this Past week, to one of his aides who was one of the Al Qaeda defense attorneys on 9 11. And there was a lot of public outrage about that. And there should be, because how do you go in the span of 25 years from never forget, and you know, my family has a little Christmas ornament of the American flag from 2001 saying, you know, united we stand, never forget, and being, you know, these are ardent patriot, saying we will avenge and secure our nation to now electing Muslims to office and suggesting that religious pluralism in this country is just fine because, you know, we need to love everybody, affirm their actions, and we can't call evil evil anymore. I mean, you look at the Lindsay Clancy trial, you can't call evil because some call, that evil, because somehow we need to sympathize with her alleged postpartum psychosis to the point that we don't want justice for her three murdered children. I mean, this is the span of where 25 years can get you. So, to discuss all of this, and of course bring this back to the biblical worldview is my very dear friend, Gino Gerace, who is, a pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel South Denver, one of the pastors and great mentors of my life, and also was a 911 first responder, actually in the immediate aftermath of that tragic event. And, and also has been an FBI chaplain. So, a lot, to, to talk about Gino. And, you know, as you are sitting here on the 25th anniversary of that absolutely horrendous day, and then looking at our current culture, what are you thinking?
The Ideological Divide: Responding to Harmful Beliefs and the Shift in Cultural Values Over 25 Years
Gino Geraci: You know, Jenna, my thoughts, like many people, go from the great big ideas to the more specific ideas. And you've talked at length on the ideological divide that was marked by Charlie Kirk's murder. And then, 9 11, which was way before that. And again, as we've sort of talked about that idea, the great big Muslim idea, the Al Qaeda thing, the, you know, what really happened. I'm thinking about how we've sort of underestimated, the political divide, the ideological divide, and then asking and answering the questions, how do we respond? How do we respond to these ideological divides, whether they're coming from, the transgender lgbtq, ideological mafia versus Al Qaeda. And so I go from that great big idea and then to your point, how things have shifted in a 25 year period where there's a growing, I'm going to use the word, either indifference or even support for ideologies. That are quite literally harmful, that could be argued fatal, to the way we live and the future that we may or may not have?
Jenna Ellis: M. Yeah. And it's so important to go from those bigger concepts that should be foundational and then, follow that line of logic into, what we see in the everyday.
Foundational Values to Public Policy: The Erosion of Truth and the Rise of Toxic Empathy
Because that's how we get from our foundational values into public policy or into parenting or into, church discipline or, you know, church membership or all of. All of these, these very practical considerations in the three institutions that God has ordained. And so what, and that's when it's good, right? Like we're building on the Christian foundation, and then that outflows into, how we behave in those institutions and what we strive for in our policy and our rulemaking. so where have we gotten in terms of the philosophy that has been so off the mark that from 25 years ago or even 250 years ago, we now find ourselves in the culture that today is poised to elect socialists and Muslims and progressivists and people who are godless populace and all. All kinds of other, ah, false and outright pagan at times, worldviews.
Gino Geraci: Yeah. You know, I can't help but think of Gad Saad's great book about toxic empathy, where here we take a biblical kind of a view. Just. And, you know, you hinted at it with Lindsey Clancy's, incredible trial that how is it possible that you can come to a place of such empathy and compassion where you say, hey, I really feel for a person who's mentally and emotionally distressed. You know, one juror even has publicly said, you know, the reason why I wanted to acquit her is because she needs help. But to your point. Well, again, we're not opposed to people who are mentally and emotionally disturbed getting help. But then how do you bring the subject of justice forward? And so imagine we're living in a pluralistic society where there is religious liberty. But again, maybe you talked about it. I'm trying to remember the public official who said that our Constitution is not a suicide pact. In other words, the freedoms that we have were never meant to be the freedom to kill yourself. And so here we have this strange situation where, in the name of compassion and plurality, we are quite literally distancing ourselves culturally from the things we hold dearest.
Jenna Ellis: M. Yeah. And, you know, and it seems like the sparkle or the attraction of these false ideologies, are becoming more pervasive in the church because we haven't, by we meaning, you know, the broader Christian, swath in America have not been as educated substantively, theologically to perceive why things like, for example, toxic empathy are not actually biblical. And. And if we are going to respond biblically and call out falsity, we have to first know what the truth is.
Gino Geraci: Right? And then you have to have.
John the Baptist's Courage: Calling Out Immorality and the Silencing of Truthful Voices
I'm going to use the term m. Clarity and courage. And you know, Jenna, all of this reminds me of, of the biblical story of Jon the Baptist. You'll remember Jon the. And this is kind of an interesting little aside. You'll remember that Jon the Baptist and Jesus were only born about nine months apart. And we have every reason to believe that maybe Jesus was crucified, in his mid-30s, about the same age as Charlie Kirk. And so imagine in your biblical setting as you're imagining the political settings and the cultural and social interactions of a Jon the Baptist, he's about the same age as Charlie Kirk, and he is calling out the powers that be for immoral behavior. And you'll remember the story that, Herod's wife and the dancing daughter want to shut down Jon the Baptist's mouth. And so in that moment of passion and promise, he agrees to have him killed, have his head cut off so that his voice would be silent, so he would shut his mouth. And so here we are, you know, we're talking about 9 11.
From Public Tragedy to Celebrated Evil: The Cultural Shift in Response to Violence and Injustice
We're talking about Charlie Kirk, you know, 25 years later, one year later. And so you see this very public thing happen in NewSong York and in Washington. You see this very public thing happen in Utah, where a person is murdered right before your eyes. He shot in the throat, and there is blood literally gushing out of his throat. And so in the hopes that he would shut his mouth. And then I'm thinking one year later, TikTok videos celebrating his murder. I'm just thinking about the depth of evil and wickedness that has sort of enveloped our country where people would celebrate such profound perversity and evil and wickedness and not even be able to tell that it is perverse and wicked and evil. And so, again, we need clarity and courage now for Jon the Baptist, it really is going to cost him his life. they're going to shut his mouth, but they're not going to shut his message. And that's what I'm wondering about. 9 11. I'm wondering if there's going to be some sort of pushback. You know, we saw it briefly and Jenny, you experienced it firsthand, where after, Charlie Kirk's murder, there was A kind of a palpable change. College chapters for turning point USA, they had 410 registered before his birth, 1095 afterwards. They had high level clubs, went from 454 to 3000.
Cultural Shifts Post-9/11 and Charlie Kirk's Murder: Examining Societal Indifference and a Search for Meaning
There was more than 120,000 chapter inquiries. there was over another million Bibles sold. I think there was a kind of a, What's the word I'm looking for? There was a kind of impulse culturally that, that people were asking the question about the meaning of life and whether or not there is such a thing as good and evil and right and wrong. And so, you know, that I'm just wondering like 911 and like Charlie Kirk and like Columbine, can you believe it that once we distance ourselves from a historical event that there's a kind of sad indifference that begins to swallow us. And so that's why we have to have these conversations. And that's. So appreciate what you do. Constantly reminding your audience we have to think about these things.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, so well said. And I'm speaking with Gino Gerasi, pastor, emeritus of Calvary Chapel South Denver. And does a lot of great work in theology and in you know, all of these topics and especially in the biblical worldview. And you know, isn't it, isn't it interesting as you were talking to Sarah, see the cultural response, you know, overall, the response on mainstream media, on, you know, we didn't really have social media at the time, but you know, even just person, to person, the difference between the response in the immediate aftermath of 911 versus the immediate aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder and the contrast of how people were willing to stand up and say this was evil, this was wrong. And look at you know, those who were willing to lay down their lives to take down the planes, the heroes that went into to the buildings to try to get people out.
The Dramatic Shift in Societal Values: From 9/11 Unity to Rationalizing Violence and Devaluing Life
I mean all of those things and nobody that I'm aware of even going back and listening to clips, you know, nobody was sitting there glorifying the murders and no one was, was saying, well, you know, I wonder if these Al Qaeda members were just troubled or they just, you know, suffered from psychosis or you know, tried empathize with, you know, the backstory of, of what happened. I mean we didn't live in this cultural moment of total affirmation of anyone's choices like we are seeing with some of these people who are actually rationalizing and justifying Charlie, Kirk's murder on the basis of, well, you know, he had hate speech or he had, he said things that we disagreed with, or you know, looking into his, his alleged murder, Tyler Robinson's backstory and well, you know, we can understand why he was in the place to do what he did. I mean those kinds of, of totally different reactions by mainstream public, and even mainstream news outlets are just so radically different that you have to again come back to the question, what happened in the last 25 years that would cause society to make such a dramatic shift?
Gino Geraci: And let's pull that thread just for a moment. Imagine 25 years ago, there are people who say, you know what, we had it coming. We deserved what they did. And then fast forward to Charlie Kirk. he had it coming. He deserved what he got. Now Lindsay, the woman who murdered her children, hey, guess what? those children had it coming. Now think about the Massachusetts law which you've also talked about. She killed her eight month old baby. But imagine that she had retained just if 10 months earlier she had just made the decision to kill her unborn child in utero 10 months earlier, there would be no legal repercussions whatsoever. How does, how did we come to this?
The Loss of God at Society's Center: Arbitrary Justice and the Erosion of Objective Truth Standards
How, how is it possible that our culture and its values could be so dark and disconnected from a biblical worldview?
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and you know, and, and as you're describing that the sheer arbitrary nature of what our law is now reflecting of the sentiment of society to say it's okay to murder a child up until birth in some states now, and now to say, well, it's okay to even murder, you know, your your seven year old, your five year old, if you have, if you suffer from, you know, this particular psychosis, or it's okay if we, if we arbitrarily conclude the lives of the elderly, if we don't in our arbitrary judgment determine that they're valuable to society. I mean the, the total arbitrary nature of this shows the lack of respect and understanding of the value of human life. And that's a big part of what has changed. And the, and there are a lot of different, specific ways that, that we could point out that society has changed in terms of the worldview. But the 30,000 foot perspective of this is that when we have lost God at the center of society and saying that all truth and goodness flows from God and that society must reflect that in our law, in our policy, in our communities, and we substitute God for our truth and our perception, that is completely arbitrary, that's where we go wrong. Because then there's no fixed objective standard, and justice becomes, well, you know, whatever we happen to think on any particular trial, whatever, you know, Massachusetts may think compared to, you know, my now home state of Florida, compared to Colorado, where you're at, you know, it. It's completely different depending on circumstances, on states, on whims of the 12 that are seated, or governors or legislatures, instead of being objective. And a society cannot persist in its morality and in its order, being a well ordered society without having truth at the center and that objective standard. And that's what I think, overall, what we've missed.
Events as Rorschach Tests: Ideological Divisions, Rationalization, and the Need for Clarity and Civility
Gino Geraci: Yeah. You know, again, as we think about this broad, great big conversation we're having about 9 11, as we're talking about Charlie Kirk, as we're talking about the sad and tragic case of this woman murdering her children, you know what each of those things also did, they provided a kind of functional Rorschach test. So imagine you're watching 9 11, you're watching Charlie Kirk, you're watching this trial. And immediately people divide into separate ideological camps as they're trying to interpret what they're seeing. and then to your point, rationalizing a, plausible but untrue excuse of why they're doing what they're doing. Political violence, moral responsibility, grief. And so they're all thrown into this pot and we're stirring it. And so if ever there was a time for clarity and charity and civility, it's like right now. And Charlie Kirk obviously wanted to have a conversation. You'll remember that you reached out to Vance Jones, literally the day before he was murdered, and said, hey, can't we have a conversation?
The Decline of Truth Seeking: From Intellectual Discourse to Bias Confirmation and Emotional Reasoning
Can't we talk about this in a way where nobody has to get hurt? And Jenna, you know, you have been the cruel, victim of people who attack you. They literally don't want to have a conversation and then talk about the ideas and then examine them on, on the merit of logic and evidence and common sense.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah. It's so true that for many people in society today, and this is both on the left and the right, unfortunately, many people are not seeking truth, they're seeking bias confirmation. And so whatever they want to be the truth, or whatever they personally believe they're going to advocate for, in spite of what, overwhelming evidence to the contrary, or in spite of being told, well, you misunderstand, you know, this, this particular thing, or you haven't considered this, or here's perhaps new evidence. and it's really been remarkable to me to see, I mean, that that used to be a failing more on the left that they were just so entrenched in their, you know, their progressive sort of secular thinking that they couldn't be persuaded. But you could at least have the conversations rationally on the right. I mean, that's, that's the basis of why we've historically always held conferences, right, and, and had instead of all of these viral videos and the kumbaya moments of everybody just having all the feels. The right was known for its intellectualism and wanting to come to an understanding and a well ordered society and policy that made sense, right? And now it's like all of this has shifted so far left that even people who think they're on the right are given to feelings and emotions and beliefs and bias that aren't grounded in fact or even sometimes reality. And they will not be convinced of that because they, they somehow think that if they admit that they have something to learn or that, oh, that's different than what I thought. But you know, thank you for telling me the truth that that somehow makes them lose their integrity instead of understanding that integrity means that, that you should want to always be seeking the truth and uprightness. I mean literally having integrity means that it's solid, that the foundation. If you're talking about the integrity of the building, you know, we're talking about 9 11.
Losing Societal Integrity: The Shift from Objective Truth to Subjective Perspectives and Relative Reality
The integrity of the building is that it can't be shaken and it is, it is built on a proper foundation. So structural integrity means that even when winds come, rains, you know, all of these things, it will stand firm. And that's the definition of integrity that we've lost as a society. And we don't even understand which way is up anymore because up is relative. And so we have this sort of standpoint epistemology of just, well, whatever my perspective is, that's truth. Instead of recognizing that truth is outside of ourselves. And no matter our perspective, our belief or what we want it to be, truth is regardless of my opinion. And if you try to tell somebody that in today's society, they're gonna get mad at you, because they don't want that objective standpoint. But, but Gino, we've got to take a break here and he's going to continue on with me into the next segment. And we are, talking of course about the 25th anniversary of 9 11, talking about the murder of Charlie Kirk a year ago and the cultural differences, between just where society has been with these two, very important events to American and world history. We'll be right back.
The Enduring Importance of Truth and Foundation: A Conversation on Current Events and Biblical Worldview
Hi, I'm Jenna Ellis, did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. And that's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast. Please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.net for forward SLG. That's afr.net give welcome back to Jenna
Gino Geraci: Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio. Welcome back.
Jenna Ellis: And I'm here with my special guest Gino Jurassi, who is the pastor emeritus of Calvary Chapel South Denver and also was a 911 first responder, in the immediate aftermath of that event 25 years ago today and has been an FBI chaplain, has served in a variety of capacities in both the, the church government, of course has a family of his own, but then also talks about the truth in society and our community, our body politic and why that ultimately matters and has to be predicated on a foundation of truth. And so as we're talking about, you know, all of these, these questions that are, that are really big questions, you know, we've, we've seen, been talking about also the difference in just where the culture was at 25 years ago compared to a year ago, with 9 11, 2001 versus September 10th of 2025 and Charlie Kirk's murder.
The Church's Role in Culture: Engaging Politically or Remaining Silent Amidst Moral and Societal Shifts
And not just society as a whole. But how do you think, Gino, the church overall in America kind of writ large, if we can generalize a little bit, how has the church response been either the same or different?
Gino Geraci: You know, I think about that question in a kind of almost polarizing term. And let me tell you what I mean by that. Because you have the people who want to engage politically without regard to biblical truth, but you also have the indifferent people who are, silent. In other words, they're saying, you know what, I'm not going to enter into the political arena because this is all politics. But again, what you've rightly talked about over the years is politics. Remember we talked about how that's truth and community. And then we talk about the moral questions and then why is it that when you have a biblical view or a biblical worldview, that our influence is the one influence that has to be silenced. And so I think that part of the church's failure is to refuse to take seriously what it means to be salt and light in a culture because again, like Jon the Baptist, we're unwilling to pay the price.
Moral Courage and Truth Telling: The Christian Imperative to Be Salt and Light in Public Life
Well, what if they cut my head off? In order to keep me from, to keep my mouth shut. And so you've got these growing group of people who literally are saying, hey, you know what? I think I'm going to tell the truth about gender ideology. I'm going to tell the truth about justice. I'm going to tell the truth about the human condition and what it means to be a human. And so, to me, you can't do that. You will not have the moral courage to do that. Not just simply with a biblical understanding of the truth, but I'm going to use the term then having, being motivated to live out that truth in a public setting. I know this sounds very, very simple, but I think that that's the answer. And so here's the church, and the church says, I'm going to teach you the truth, but then I'm going to encourage you to be salt and light to live out that truth in the real public setting in which you live. And so that's the challenge, isn't it?
Jenna Ellis: It is. And having courage, has always been the challenge. We even see that through, the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before.
A 9/11 First Responder's Perspective: Witnessing Tragedy and Questioning Value in the Aftermath
And that's a perfect moment, I think, to ask, you to share some of what you experienced as a first responder on 9 11.
Gino Geraci: Yeah, let me tell you my very first response. you know, when I came to this 15 acre facility that used to be the Twin Towers, so I can remember I got Skip heights again and I, along with Franklin Graham, we got there on Sunday night and then we were. So it happened on Tuesday. We fly in, you know, the airspace is closed.
The Devastation of 9/11: Describing Rescue Efforts, Grief, and the Profound Loss at Ground Zero
We're there in rescue and recovery mode on Sunday, and then we're on, on literal on at ground zero on Monday. And Jenna, my first thought was, how could something so valuable become so worthless so quickly? So I'm thinking about the 3,000 plus people who are dead. I am smelling death and I am smelling jet fuel and I am seeing trash and there is toxic waste all around me. And so again, you talk about first responders. Remember, we are going to a place putting ourselves at physical harm, possible risk, possible future health problems, but we go. And so I, can remember doing the rescue and the recovery. I can remember the weeping firemen. I can remember the wanted posters of loved ones who desperately want to find their loved ones. I remember being at ground zero and then going to the family center as people are weeping and crying, desperate to find their loved ones.
The Unimaginable Aftermath: Dealing with Identifying Victims and Delivering Devastating News Post-9/11
And then I spent part of my time at the morgue, Jenna, as people are Sifting through DNA as we're trying to figure out who's alive and who's dead. And then imagine not just one or two, but imagine 10, 20, 100 people coming up and then having that very difficult conversation that your loved one is gone, that they're not coming back.
Jenna Ellis: And, I mean, it's just. It's unimaginable. And, you know, I remember seeing the contemporaneous footage, you know, in the day of. And the aftermath of all of that, you know, from Colorado. I was not there, didn't have an opportunity to actually visit, until, you know, a few years later. and of course, have now been at the Freedom Tower and, you know, seen, that museum and, you know, just all of the history that now that it, that it is. and I also remember, then fast forward to, college, a few years later. You know, this is only maybe four or five years later.
Journalism Ethics and Tragedy: Airing Disturbing Footage Versus Sanitizing Evil and Its Impact
I'm in college in, journalism. And one of the, you know, remarkable things that had never really occurred in, modern journalism was the decision of whether to actually air a live shot of what was going on as people were literally jumping from the buildings.
Gino Geraci: Right.
Jenna Ellis: And how that changed a lot of the ethics and questions in journalism of covering, you know, these types of events and tragedies and, you know, that term, ethics and the questions around it. do you think that there is a. A cultural view that we tend to want to sanitize some of the worst of humanity to the rest of the culture in a way that's actually doing a disservice to the public to show what is actually evil so that we can condemn it and we can see what it is that we're fighting against.
Gino Geraci: Yeah, what an interesting question. And I'm going to kind of turn the question around just for a moment, Jenna, because there's two. There's two ways of thinking about this. Okay?
The Spectrum of Reporting: Sanitizing Versus Sensationalizing Tragedy and the Trauma of Unseen Events
Think of sanitizing and sensationalizing as part of an arc or a spectrum. Are we going to sanitize it? Are we going to sensationalize it? but again, on either extreme, what if something gets lost? What if the actual message gets lost? And so here we are, you know, because again, I am a first responder. I have been a first responder at the most gruesome events in our at least recent history. Columbine, ground zero, the Aurora movie theater shooting. And there are certain things, Jenna, that once you see them, you can't unsee them. It never goes away. And so I'm particularly, aware of how certain Things traumatize people as you relive them. And so how do we, how do we have that balance? How, how do we. And again, you saw it with Charlie Kirk, and you saw it with Ground Zero and people jumping out of buildings and then the pictures of the three children who were murdered by their mother.
Shocking Sensibilities: Will Unprecedented Evil and Indifference Spur America to Course Correct?
Now imagine, do I have to see people jumping out of buildings? Do I have to watch the Charlie Kirk footage? Do I have to see the crime scene photos of these children who were strangled in their basement to be shocked into thinking something wicked, something evil, something horrible has happened? And what will it take to shock you into a sensible response? You know what I think about, because I'm always thinking about the Bible. You remember the story in the Book of Judges where this man has a concubine and she's gang raped, by people. There's a roving mob of people who engage in sexual assault. He chops her up into little pieces and then sends her mutilated body to the several tribes of Israel. And many people reading the Bible go, that's in the Bible? Yeah. Why is that in the Bible? How could that possibly be in the Bible? What possible function could it possibly serve? And you know what it did? It shocked the sensibilities of an indifferent people to unite as one and say, you know what? We can't do this anymore. There's something so wrong that we're going to need a united effort to course correct to your question. Then what will it take? M. What will it take to shock the sensibilities of the United States of America? Order to course correct.
Desensitization to Evil: What Will It Take for Society to Wake Up and Address Profound Wickedness?
Sorry.
Jenna Ellis: I think that's, so, so well said. And I think that is the question is what will it take? Because I would have honestly thought it would take a lot less. I was shocked watching this jury have 11 people who were willing to come to acquittal that easily and that quickly. And, you know, this one juror who says, okay, well, you know, there's, maybe there's doubt, but she's, guilty. And, and you know, the one sane person in the midst. You're saying the emperor has no clothes. I mean, that's, that's literally what it felt like to, to, to see that there's just this one lone juror that's willing to stand up and say no. And, and what will it take in a society that has been so overrun by so much noise and, and you know, you. We can get on demand, any sort of pornography, graphic content, horror movies, you know, slash and burn or whatever they call them. You know, all of this stuff that it has so desensitized us to evil? What honestly will it take? I mean, do you think it will take something that is profoundly, that profoundly touches our lives and our way of life and our comfort perhaps before we wake up and are willing to say the evil has to stop?
Gino Geraci: You know, I have a Jewish friend, you know, the antisemitism thing is a real problem as well.
The Peril of Indifference: How Numbing Emotions and Following Feelings Leads to a Loss of Courage
I have a Jewish friend who, who asked me the question which is worse? Seeing the evil for all that it is or being indifferent to that evil? In other words, here you have this oddly shocking situation where that we become desensitized to the evil, that nothing shocks us, that, that it's the indifference itself that becomes the genuine problem we have to struggle with.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, and I mean, there is a quotation I don't, remember, it was quoted on a television show, but I don't know where it originated, that that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. And there's a lot of truth to that. And when we see the profound indifference where people just don't care anymore. I mean, they don't care about the, the horrors that are perpetuated by criminals in this country. They don't care, whether, you know, society is overrun. I mean, a lot of this I personally think, is that indifference can be attributable to how over medicated we are as a society. Because if you completely desensitize your emotions and your feelings, I mean obviously, the. We do need to still say, you know, don't go based just on your feelings. But if you are so numbed to feeling anything, to even feeling the righteous anger or the, the anger that comes with injustice, and, and then you are being numbed to what it takes to have courage and, and to understand, what drives, human beings to be willing to stand up for the truth. And so, you know, this is obviously multifaceted.
The Devil's Strategy: Numbing Emotions Versus Affirming Feelings in a Culture Drifting from Truth
but I think that it's so interesting and worth pointing out that, you know, the devil has a strategy. And you see how all of these different tentacles have woven their way into society so that on one hand we're numbing out our emotions and on the other hand the emotions that are left, we're told to follow them, and to affirm anyone's life choices and to follow these blatantly false worldviews to the point that again, you know, we, we don't know which way is up. And this is where I think it falls on the Christians, the true Christians in society, to Say we are the ones. I mean, God always leaves a remnant. There are always the few that stand up in the face of evil. And we see that over and over again in biblical history, in world history. It's going to take the few that are willing to stand up and simply say, no, I. This is enough. Enough.
Gino Geraci: You know, there's an interesting movie.
The Call to Courage: Engaging in Both Government and Ministry While Remaining True to Biblical Identity
I. I think your mom and dad were playing it, at. At the church in Longmont. It was. I. I don't know if you remember the movie Amazing Grace, about Wilberforce, but there's a scene in the movie where the. Where the evangelicals are pressing William Wilberforce to keep fighting, to keep fighting the British slave trade through politics. And he confesses, you know, at least dramatically in this movie, he's torn between being an advocate in government and saying, why, I am just going to simply do the work of God. And their response was, we humbly suggest that you do both. And I thought, yes, sometimes it isn't an either or proposition. Sometimes we have to do both. Sometimes we have to engage and. But still remain true to our biblical identity as followers of Jesus.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, absolutely. And even in the face of when, you know, others fall away, or they just say, you know, this is too much for me, or I'm gonna, bend either to the mob because I'm scared of them, or to even, you know, our. Our friends on our side who sometimes are. Are misperceiving the situation, or they're not willing to stand up for the truth.
Walking with Christ: The Courage to Follow the Lord Regardless of Opposition or Personal Cost
And, you know, you may want. Not want to disappoint them or you want to go along with basically peer pressure. I mean, all of this comes down to courage to follow the Lord regardless. And even if you walk alone, you will never be alone because you're walking with Christ. And. And this is where we, need to come to that moment, as everyone has to in their own Christian life, to say, I am willing to follow the Lord, come what may. And. And that is a very courageous statement because we can't say that lightly, because come what may, I mean, there are a lot of Christian martyrs who have said that, who have come before us, that it literally cost them everything to serve the Lord. And the point is, it is worth it. And that, that, frame of mind and understanding the value of what the Lord offers and the Christian life offers compared to what the world offers, that's the distinction.
Sustaining in Crisis: The Importance of a Right Relationship with God Amidst Life's Ultimate Challenges
And I see, you know, even just in my own life of Christians that I know who aren't even willing to, you know, get up and go to church regularly on Sunday because it's too hard or, well, you know, we have football practice with our kids or, you know, all of these other distractions. It's like they don't see the value of the Christian life and of doing what we're called to, because that's what's so worth it.
Gino Geraci: And you know what's really interesting about what you just said, Jenna? That's not going to sustain you in the moment of crisis you've experienced. Personal crisis. I've dealt with crisis most of my adult life. what's going to sustain you? What's going to sustain you when you find out your child was murdered? What's going to sustain you if you get a cancer diagnosis? What's going to sustain you in that moment of deep and dark difficulty? The only thing that's going to sustain you is to have a right relationship with the Lord through the Lord Jesus Christ. And so, again, you know, I'm constantly. I've made a commitment, Jenna, that I don't want to talk about the brokenness of this world without also giving fair time to the promises of redemption and the promises that God affords us. So that's part of the way that I think we cool the conversation. We do both.
Truth as a Roaring Lion: Allowing Truth and Justice to Prevail in a Fallen World
And, hopefully, you know, I'm reminded of what Charles Spurgeon was said when, somebody said, how are you going to defend Jesus? And he goes, I have no need to defend Jesus. Jesus, I will simply let him out of his cage like a roaring lion. And you just go, there is a sense, as you already know, that truth will make its way forward, that justice will make its way forward, that that reality will, in fact, have a say in the way we process things.
Jenna Ellis: Yeah, well, Gina, we have to end this here.
The Foundation of Hope: Focusing on Truth Amidst Cultural and Historical Challenges
but I certainly so appreciate this conversation. And we have to focus on truth, and that is our only hope. And so thank you so much for, joining me to talk about all of these important things. And, you should follow Gino on X. And we'll be right back with more.
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Gino Geraci: Welcome back to Jenna Ellis in the Morning on American Family Radio.
Learning from History: The Critical Importance of Truth, Eternity, and Biblical Worldview for Society
Jenna Ellis: Welcome back. Well, I spent so much time talking to Gino because that was such an excellent and substantive conversation that we only have about three minutes left before the end of the show. And this is why the hour just goes by so quickly, but why I love having these conversations not just about the events that we need to remember and the facts of what's going on in, in the news and in, in, in history that we should know, you know, where we've come so we know where we're going. But we need to always ask ourselves the questions, why? Why does this matter? And not just that it matters to us, but why does it matter to eternity? And we always need to be looking not just forward but upward and saying, what can I learn from where we've been, where we are currently, where we're going? and what can I learn about the standard of truth so that I can be the best citizen, in society, the best member and hopefully, active, participant in ministry or my church and the best role in my family. If you are a husband, wife, son, daughter, all of us have those roles in our families, in our churches. If you're not part of a local church, please find one. get involved. We are called to be members of our local church community and we are members of our civil society and we can't advocate for, for a moral and upright society without first knowing the truth and knowing the standard that we are supposed to bear. we can't stand up for courage when we don't know what it is we are standing up for. And so, so many of the lies that have come at us over the last 25 years, in this culture and how there is such a difference in our culture between where we were in 2001 compared to where we are today in 2026. And that difference has been the slow and sometimes rapid encroachment of lies, of either selling a completely opposite paradigm to the Christian worldview, or, even more insidiously, a false view of Jesus.
Discerning Truth from Lies: The Value of Substantive Bible Teaching in Displacing Deception
A meek and milder, a gentler, a affirming, even socialist kind of form of Jesus that is not the biblical truth. And so my encouragement on this, anniversary of, 9 11, 2001 is to get into a church that substantively teaches the truth of God and know that there is significant eternal value in understanding what the Bible teaches and dedicating yourself to knowing scripture from Cove to cover, knowing the things of God, the things of truth, so that we can dispuse ourselves of the lies of the devil and we can point them out and we can recognize them because we know the truth. Be daily in the Word. Get into a Bible study, get into a class, get into a church that teaches the things of God and the knowledge of truth. As always, you can reach me and my team. Jennaafr.net.
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Jenna Ellis reflects on the 25th anniversary of 9/11, discussing its profound impact on American society and the cultural shifts that have occurred since that fateful day. Joined by Gino Geraci, a pastor and 9/11 first responder, they explore the ideological divides that have emerged, the changing perceptions of good and evil, and the importance of a biblical worldview in navigating today's moral complexities.
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