Where Did Evil Come From with Dr. David Allen

Jeff Chamblee: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, senior pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good Thursday morning, and welcome to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here. I want to ask you this question. Where did evil come from? You know, when we read in the Bible, so many people, when they pick up the Bible, they're going to read the Bible. They're reading in Genesis. You start a book at the beginning of the book, and, you read about God creating the heavens and the earth. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And he tells us about how he spoke it into existence. And then he tells us how he made, man, how he made woman, how he made Adam and Eve. Genesis 2, gives us more detail about that. He brings them together, and the man and his wife were both naked, and they were not ashamed. And the sun sets in Genesis chapter two, and everything seems wonderful. And then Genesis chapter three, all of the sudden, we get introduced to the serpent. Now, the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he begins a conversation with Eve and deceives Eve. And the natural qu question is, well, where did the serpent come from? Obviously, the serpent. Revelation 12 is the devil. the Bible clearly tells us that the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan? People say, do you believe in a talking snake? well, I believe in a talking devil. And that's who that was talking to Eve in the garden. But as we dig into the Bible, Ezekiel 28, we come into this passage where, we get insight into how the devil became the devil. And the Bible says this again, the word of the Lord came to me saying, son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, thus says the Lord God, you had the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering. He's not talking about an earthly king. He's talking about, the power behind the throne. Because, the King of Tyre wasn't in Eden. The garden of God, every precious stone was your covering. The ruby, the topaz and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx and the Jasper, the lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald and the gold. The workmanship of your settings and sockets was in you on the day that you were created. They were prepared. You were the anointed cherub who covers, obviously not talking about an earthly king. And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God. You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you by the abundance of your trade. You were internally filled with violence and you sinned. Therefore, I cast you out as profane. For from the mountain of God and I have destroyed you. O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire, your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground. I put you before kings that they may see you. By the multitude of your iniquities and the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore, I have brought fire from the midst of you. It has consumed you, and I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the eyes of all who see you. Well, that is what most theologians believe. A discussion of Lucifer, the most beautiful angel God ever made, falling from his place of perfection, falling into sin. And the question comes into being, well, how did that happen in a perfect place? the origin of evil. Now, to help me with this discussion is one of my favorite theologians, Dr. David Allen. He is the dean of the Adrian Rogers center for Biblical Preaching at Mid America Baptist Theological Seminary, and he's also the host and founder of preachingcoach.com David has written, many commentaries and helpful books on this subject of. We always go back to this. The sovereignty of God versus free will, the free will of angels as it was in the case of Lucifer and the free will of man. So, David, welcome to the program today.

Dr. David Allen: Well, good morning to you, Jeff. An honor and privilege to be with you and your listeners today.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so, David, this is an age old theological question. I don't know, if anybody's ever come up with maybe m an acceptable answer to this. when you are asked the question, okay, if God creates God's holy, holy, holy, he's perfect. He creates a perfect place. He has a perfect Heaven, with all these perfect creatures called angels. How does the thought of sin even enter into the mind of Lucifer?

Dr. David Allen: Well, this is, of course, in theology, the question of theodicy. The word the Odyssey, means, basically it's made up of two words, Theos for God, and then the, Greek word for justice or justify. So the question is, if God is all powerful and if God is all good, and if God is all love, then how is it that we can account for evil in the world? And so answering that question is the key question, for, thousands of years, hundreds of years, and a few thousand years of theological discussion. And it has to do with creating a theodicy. And a big part of the Odyssey is answering the question of the origin of evil. And basically, the way it. The way Scripture indicates, partly from what you just read in Ezekiel, what Scripture seems to indicate is that the origin of evil is in free choice. It is not in God. God is not the source of evil. James one would seem to make that clear. What we know about the nature of God would seem, to make that clear. and so the source of evil is not in God. The source of evil is, is in created beings. The first one that you mentioned, of course, being Satan. Clearly, Satan was created good. he was perfect. But clearly also Satan possesses free will. He had the free will to follow God, obey God and remain in his state of good, his state of innocence, or to rebel against God, choose against God, plunge himself into sin, and be cast out of hell, heaven. The latter is what occurred. Clearly, Scripture makes that point clear, not only in Ezekiel, but in Revelation as well, as other places. And so the first being that I think is recorded, in terms of the. That tells us something about the origin of sin, or the origin of evil is Satan himself. And it's an act of the freedom of his will. Secondly, there are a number of angels, good angels, who also followed Satan in his rebellion. And, they were therefore confirmed in a state of fallenness by their own free will. And thus you have the evil angels, otherwise known as the demonic number three. God's creation of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve apparently were likewise created with freedom of the will. They were created good. They were created perfect in the, in the sense of innocent. And yet they chose evil. They chose to disobey God. And that, of course, had immense consequences for them as well as for us. And so really, ultimately, the tracing back of the origin of evil, you have to talk about those three, entities. You have to talk about Satan. You have to talk about the fallen angels and you have to talk about Adam and Eve. But obviously freedom of the will plays into all three of those.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, Dr. Allen, when we think about that, God. God can make a perfect place, but he can also give free will to angels and free will to humanity. I ran across this quote. I was at a shepherd's conference a few years ago, and Steven Lawson was the, kickoff speaker. you know, Steven Lawson had, he's. He's had issues and he's out of the ministry now. But he said this man does not. He's a, as you know, a big spokesman for Calvinism for many, many years. Man does not have free will. There is only one free will that belongs to God. Man is dead in trespasses and sin. He has a moral inability. He cannot come to Christ. He cannot believe. So the free will, in essence, he has only ability to remain in unbelief. Well, if I believed that, then I would have to conclude that God is the author of temptation and evil. And James says he's not.

Dr. David Allen: Well, yeah, that is correct. Now we have to, We don't. Unless we have more context of what Lawson is saying there. It appears Lawson is talking about fallen humanity. So whether he would make that same claim about the devil before his fall, the angels before their fall, and Adam and Eve before their fall, I. I don't know. We would have to. Now there are people, there are Calvinists who say, that, basically Adam and Eve had no choice but to fall, that God ordained the fall. And some would even go so far as to say that, God ordained the fall in the sense of he caused it. that you do have a few Calvinists who go to an extreme. Now that of course is blasphemy in my view. Scripture doesn't teach that at all. the reason Adam and Eve fail is not because God ordained the fall, but God permitted the fall. He permitted Adam and Eve to sin. You have to go that route at least, because your only alternative is to say that God ordains Adam and Eve sin in the sense of he is the efficient cause or the direct cause of it. And of course, most Calvinists don't want to say that. They'll say, well, he's not the direct cause, he's not the efficient cause cause. He's sort of the secondary cause. And in that sense, God ordained that sin should come into the world. And yet God is off the hook from any moral accountability there because the all of the problem lies with man. Now that There are some problems. Non Calvinists see all of that as problematic, but nevertheless most orthodox, let me say mainstream Calvinists do not want to argue, that God has caused the fall or that God is the source or the origin of sin. Scripture would seem to be very clear that that's not the case. But there is still a danger within Calvinism. Those of us who are not Calvinists point out that the, the what Calvinists say about the sovereignty of God and that his will rules everything and what Westminster Confession says, about how God rules in providence and in his sovereignty. There is a problem from our perspective that that entails down the road that God is the author of sin. Now most Calvinists reject that totally. They do not teach God is the author of sin. But non Calvinists often accuse Calvinists of failing to recognize that is an entailment of their overall theology.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, that would be the logical flow. If, if God controls everything and there is no free will, well then every.

Dr. David Allen: Exactly. It's got to come from God has preordained everything. Right. If predestination means preordination, not an issue of permissive will here, but predestination, if that means preordination, if every molecule moves according to the will of God, and God meticulously controls the universe, if that's true and man has no free will, then it becomes difficult to get God off the hook for sin and is a problem that Calvinists struggle with and try to answer, try to deal with, in their own theology and in their own theodicy.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, we're talking to Dr. David Allen here on A Real Truth for today on American Family Radio. And we're talking about the age old theological question. Where did evil come from? If God makes a perfect place and he did, and God is a perfect and holy God, and he is. And the angels are all perfect. Well, how did Lucifer get the idea that he could overthrow God? And how did he lead a rebellion where a third of the angels went with him? And then how does that spill over to man? Those are great questions and I'm glad we have Dr. Allen to unscrew the inscrutable. those are difficult, difficult things and people have been talking about them for thousands of years. But it's a great discussion. And so we're up against a break. But don't go away. As we have more with Dr. David Allen.

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Jeff Chamblee: This is real truth for today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program, Pastor Jeff. Here I'm talking to my friend Dr. David Allen. He's a theologian, an author, an educator, and he sits, at the chair of the dean of the Adrian Rogers center for Biblical Preaching at Mid America. And, David also has the preaching coach, preachingcoach.com which is a great resource for, pastors and teachers to go on there. David can help you, become an effective communicator of the good news of Jesus Christ. Well, we're talking about the origin of evil and, key passages. As I mentioned, starting the program. Genesis 3 is the one that so many people, anybody that has spent any time reading the Bible, you run into that right off the bat. The fall of man. And it was instigated by the serpent whom we read is the, the devil and Satan. Revelation 12 goes back to Genesis chapter three. Well, there are two other passages that are more obscure for the average bible reader. Ezekiel 28 that gives us the fall of Lucifer. And then Isaiah 14, beginning in verse 12, where the Scripture says this. How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn, you have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations. But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven. I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the most high. Nevertheless, you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit. David, most people believe that, Isaiah 14 is talking about the devil that's what he said. The five I wills the pride of Satan as he or Lucifer as he thought he could topple God and his throne. why do you think the Lord kind of couches and not hides, but it's almost like digging for diamonds in a cave. On some of these passages that we would think, man, this would, we should have highlighted this Lord because that would have really helped us on how Lucifer became Satan and the origin of evil and all those things. why do you, why do you think it's kind of couched in there in Isaiah and Ezekiel?

Dr. David Allen: Well, I think in Isaiah and Ezekiel you're dealing with prophetic literature, you're dealing with the prophetic genre. And to a certain extent, that prophetic genre has aspects of apocalyptic, aspects to it as well. And therefore you're going to have employed some symbolism. And that's certainly what you have in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. Now I think you're exactly right. I concur with you, and with evangelical scholars who believe that these verses, these passages are talking about more than a literal king at the time. They are talking about a king at the time, but they have a dual fulfillment. there is a reference here to a literal king, but there's also a reference beyond where this is clearly descriptive of more than a mere human being. And so, we do, I think rightfully interpret these passages as referencing the fall of Satan. Now what we know about Satan, when we compare all of the references to him in the Old and NewSong Testament, he was a created being, but he was probably one of the archangels. So he was at a very, he's at a very high level of angelic, organization. But he chose to rebel against God. The only way I know to describe that is to attribute free will to Him. There's really no other way because nowhere does the scripture say that God caused Satan to fall. You don't have that kind of language. So the only rather real alternative based on scripture is that even here, the I wills the five I will do this, I will do that. He is exercising God given free will even to rebel against God. Now that raises the question, well then why? If God knows that, and obviously he does, because God is omniscient, then why does God create a world where his created beings have free will? Well, there's no way to fully answer that question, but we have snippets of things from scripture to help us gain an insight there. For example, the only think about what is God's alternative If he doesn't give his angels freedom of will, and if he doesn't give Adam and Eve and humanity freedom of will, then he has no other alternative but to create them like an automaton, like a robot, where they must do what God says, they must love God, they must obey God. They have no choice in the matter. Now, God could have created a world that way, but he obviously did not. And so then the question arises, why did he not? And in a general theodicy and evangelical approach to this, God deemed that it was better to grant freedom of will to his created beings and yet still bring about an opportunity of salvation for humanity, through Christ. But God has deemed there will be no salvation offered to the fallen angels. And so I think freedom of the will comes into a major part of, what is happening with the creation of Satan and with the fall of Satan. I don't know how to explain Isaiah, 14 beyond, the concept of free will.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. Okay. So as it relates to the angelic creatures, Dr. Allen, do they, can they still rebel against God even at this late date?

Dr. David Allen: That is a great question. The apparent answer, and there's no, no solid answer here, but the apparent answer is no. The, it would appear that everybody had an opportunity here to decide to maintain God or to rebel.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.

Dr. David Allen: And that after that decision was made, those, those who rebelled are now confirmed in their state of evil, in their state of holiness, and there is apparently no going back. But also it appears the opposite is true symmetrically, that the good angels who did not fall are now confirmed in their state of goodness such that they cannot fall. Now, we, we don't know that for sure, but clearly the implication is that we don't have ongoing pockets of angels who are rebelling against God and therefore fallen. If that's happening, that is not stated in Scripture.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: M. So when we get to heaven, or when the Lord comes back at the Rapture and he. He gives us a glorified body, obviously a glorified body. We're separated from the flesh at that point. there is no impulse to rebel against God, to sin, to go our own way. And so nobody, nobody in heaven is going to say one day, well, I don't want to follow Jesus anymore.

Dr. David Allen: Well, correct. That is, that's also apparently what Scripture indicates. And that raises the question, well, how can that be true if we have free will in heaven? couldn't somebody who is a Christian, has a glorified body still decide, well, you know, I'm just going to rebel against God, apparently, there is no opportunity to do that. Now, there are a number of intricate explanations for why that is, but they generally revolve around the concept that once we have a glorified body, we no longer possess, at that point, a sin nature, which is, of course, what we possess now. But that sin nature is eradicated and we have a glorified body. And therefore we will not have the inclination to rebel against God, but we will have perhaps an infinite number of good options to choose from, but not have an option to choose that which is evil or that which is sinful. That would appear to be the case now. Now, how that comes about or how to explain that gets. Gets rather detailed or rather difficult, but that would appear to be the implication of the future state, the glorified state of believers in heaven.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Dr. Allen, when we, as we read in, in Genesis, it doesn't take long before we get to Genesis chapter 6, and the passage about the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and the Nephilim. And who are those people and who are the sons of God? when I take that from Genesis 6 and look at, Jude 1:6 says, and angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, he has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. Okay, so here's my question. Jude, verse six. Were these. These were demonic, beings that did this in Genesis 6, or were these. These holy angels that. That also rebelled at a later date in Genesis 6?

Dr. David Allen: Okay, well, let's start with the two kinds of. Of, fallen angels. All right? Based on what we read in Jude and Second Peter and Genesis and so forth, you have two categories of fallen angels. You have fallen angels who are free in the sense that they're still roaming about doing the will of Satan. Now, their judgment is sure, and they will be judged, and Revelation makes that clear. But number two, you have apparently a smaller category of fallen angels who are not free. their sin was so of an egregious nature. and their evil, so evil, that they are incarcerated, and they do not have free movement. They are reserved in darkness. They are reserved in chains of incarceration until they are cast into the lake of fire. Now, so you got two groups of angels there. that's clear. That part's clear. Now, what's not clear is that what happened in Genesis 6 are fallen angels who are trying to cohabitate with human women. I don't personally subscribe to that view, though that is A popular view, because as scripture says, the angels, are not like human beings. They apparently are sexless creatures, and they are not endowed for sexual relationship. Because when we get to heaven, right, we're not going to be in marriage relationships in heaven. Even though we are glorified human being, we have a glorified body, but we are said to be like the angels in heaven. So that would indicate to me that it's difficult to view angels somehow cohabitating with women. About the only way that could happen is through demonic possession of men who then cohabitate. And, you know, maybe you can see it that way. That's not how I see it, though. but for whatever reason, these incarcerated angels are incarcerated, and beyond the Genesis 6 theory, we're not told what it was they did, that was so heinous that God would choose to incarcerate them. But obviously there is a group of fallen angels that are in that category for whatever reason.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so it says in Second Peter that he. He committed them to pits of darkness, which is the Greek word Tartarus. and then you also have a place in scripture called the abyss. Revelation, 20. The devil is going to be put in the abyss, the bottomless pit, for a thousand years. when Jesus cast out demons, they would cry out, send us into the swine, not into the abyss. So do you see the angels that are committed to pits of darkness, this Tartarus, as different from the place of the abyss, or is that the same?

Dr. David Allen: In my view, that would be the same. There are some people who see it as two different locations. I would say the, the more likely view is that's probably the same.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. obviously, those angels that were in the. Or those demons that were in the man of Gadara, they didn't want to go there. please don't.

Dr. David Allen: I don't send us to the abyss. You've got to be pretty desperate, to say to the Lord, don't send us into the abyss. We'll go into the swine.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.

Dr. David Allen: You know, you got to be pretty desperate, to go into the swine. Well, even the swine had better sense than that. and when they were possessed, you know, they. What did they do? They ran off the cliff and they all drowned. So where demons go after that, Maybe they went to the abyss at that point. I don't know. Scripture doesn't say. Yeah, but, yeah, there. That's exactly right. The. The demons who are free in the sense now all demons are under the authority of Christ. But I just mean demons who are not incarcerated currently and have the opportunity to serve the devil, working against God and his purposes. there's a sense in which they are free to roam the earth, but the day is coming when they, too, will be judged along with Satan, and they will all be cast into the lake of fire.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: David, would it be, correct in your line of thinking to say a demon wants to have a human host, a human home? They don't want to be just wandering free?

Dr. David Allen: Oh, I think so. I think that's the. The clear implication of scripture. Right? They want to have a human host. Yes.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, as we see clips, of people that are, They just seem so irrational, these people that buy into the transgender insanity that seems to be so demonic, and you watch them just melt down and scream and totally out of control. do you see that as demonic?

Dr. David Allen: There's no question that part of that is demonic. You know, there are differing reasons, I think, for that. one reason is, mental illness. You've got some people who go down the. That road because they just don't have it all together up here. There's a form of mental illness. you've got others, I think, who are demonized. So I think that there's a level of the demonic in this kind of thing, attempting to distort God's creation, order of gender of male and female. You know, if you're Satan and you want to try to distort that, what better way than to try to do it with the LGBTQ movement and the, transgender movement? That's the way to. Would be a way to do it right there.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. Were you listening to Real Truth for today? Pastor Jeff Schrieve here with Dr. David Allen. We're up against a break. We'll come back and take your calls, so give us a call. 888-589-8840.

Jeff Chamblee: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhishheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to the program. Pastor Jeff here. I do want to just, mention I've mentioned this before, but April 2027, April 2nd through the 11th, we are going to the Holy Land, and we're trusting the Lord that things will be, calmed down and everything over there. But I'm leading a trip to Israel in April 2027. You can go to from his heart.org from his heart.org and click, on the link there. Find out all the particulars Love for you to come with me. We're going to have a great, great time. And so go to fromisheart.org and find out about it. Well, I'm talking to Dr. David Allen. We're talking about the origin of evil. And, we got into a discussion right before the break about the demonic. And, so, Dr. Allen, anybody who reads the NewSong Testament and reads the gospels knows that Jesus in a big part of his ministry, he's casting out demons. we have people today that want to follow suit and have, you know, everything is chasing after demons. I like what Jon MacArthur said. He said there's nothing in the Bible that tells us we're supposed to do that. if you encounter a demon possessed person, you have power and authority in Jesus name. But we don't go looking for the devil. But here's my question. we don't have very many people that are talking about, demonic possession. We have lots of people today and secular psychiatrists and psychologists. They wouldn't talk about demon possession, but they like to talk about mental illness. So I'm one that says, I wonder how much mental illness is really a demon working in that person's life. How, do you view that?

Dr. David Allen: Well, I think a couple of things can be said here. Number one, you have to, you have to affirm the reality of demonic oppression and also demonic possession. The NewSong Testament makes that clear. So the reality that a person can be demonized, which is the Greek NewSong Testament term for that, is very clear. that was true in the NewSong Testament. And Jesus, as you said, cast out demons from people. so I think the same is true today. I think there are people who are demonized. There are people who are possessed, of demons. I do think that's true. Now, having said that, there are two extremes. Extreme number one would say, oh, listen, we just. That's scary. We just don't want to talk about that. We don't want to deal with that. We don't want to. We don't even want to contemplate that. And I think there are some Christians who just run from it. The other extreme, I think, is the pendulum swinging too far. The other direction is everything is caused by a demon. So anybody's got a problem, you, you've got a demon, and we need to come in there and exercise that demon out of you. And I think there are some of our Christian brothers and sisters who are too far on that side of things, that they find a demon under every bush in life. And I think That's a problem. I don't think scripture supports either one of those, views. Now, it's interesting that there is very little said in the Bible about mental illness. M. There is a lot said in the Bible about demonic oppression and, and then things that result from being demonized. So does that mean or are to we, to conclude that there's really no such thing as mental illness? I would say no, that's a mistake. There is a such thing as mental illness. I've talked to enough Christian doctors and Christian psychiatrists, to know that there are. There are aspects of mental illness and there are reasons for mental illness that occur. Chemical imbalance, you know, being one in the body. So, people can experience some form of. Of mental illness and it not necessarily be demonic. On the other hand, demonic possession is going to create an illness spiritually and, and mentally. And so we need to recognize that as well. And there are people out there today who are clearly under, demonic influence. I would say the kind of gross evil that you see in the transgender movement and all of that is clearly there is a satanic demonic element behind that. Even though every single person who is involved in that, some action or activity in that movement may not necessarily be demon possessed, but they are certainly, following a satanic lead. And I think that would be clear, that would be my view on all this.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: revelation, chapter 20, verse one says, then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand, and he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years and threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him so that he would not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed. Now, David, you and I are, premillennial in our, thinking of eschatology. I really struggle with the amillennial viewpoint that says Satan is bound, and he is no longer allowed to deceive the nations. It's almost laughable to me how you can say that Adrian Rogers used to say, well, if he's bound with a chain, it's a very long chain because he seems to be doing a lot in our world. How do those amillennial guys, which so many of the reformed guys are amillennial, how do they reconcile, those two things?

Dr. David Allen: Well, they don't do it very well. It's a strain and a stress on them to try to do that because of Revelation 20 very clearly indicates that there's coming a time when Satan will be bound. Notice the futuristic language there. That doesn't seem to be true today. It certainly doesn't seem to be true experientially. How, as you say, how can we say when we see what's happening in our world or just follow what's happened since the crucifixion resurrection of Christ, that somehow Satan is not bound? I, think a non millennialist would have to say, well, he's restrained. He can't do everything he wants to do. I think they would have to go down that road. But see, that's really not what the text says either, by the way, hermeneutically and historically. I'd like to point out to our listeners that the early Church fathers, the earliest of the Church Fathers, were keliasts. That means they were pre millennial in a sense. They believe that, that that thousand year reign was literal. Amillennialism develops later, primarily under Augustine. So let's just, you know, just for the sake of discussion, make sure we understand that Premillennialist or Kelly asked those who believe in that thousand year reign is literal. they planted the flag on the hill first. And it's your amillennial list who are coming in later and then post millennialists are coming in even later after them. So yes, I think, I think my amillennial, our amillennial friends struggle with Revelation 20. It's hard to spiritualize that. it's hard to say that there's some sense in which Satan is bound. Now, truly, as Martin Luther said, even the devil is God's devil. I love that statement, by the way. The devil doesn't have full and free sway. He never has. Job makes that clear. Right. So Satan is not free to do anything he wants to. He's still under the authority of God. But it certainly doesn't appear that he's bound in any significant way in terms of he is the one who is the God of this world. Paul says in Second Corinthians, he has powerful sway. How can that be true if Revelation 20 is spiritualized? I don't see it.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, if you have a question for Dr. Allen, give us a call. 888-589-8840. That's 888-589-8840. Dr. Allen, let me shift gears on you a little bit. Preachingcoach.com from your perspective, what do you think is needed today from the pulpit? What should preachers be focused on? You know, we don't want to, scratch where somebody's not itching. so, so where is the itch from your perspective?

Dr. David Allen: Well, the itch is defined by scripture, not, not by felt needs. People have genuine felt needs. We're not denying that. But preaching should be biblical. It should be expository in nature, should be text driven. That's the great need of the church today. People need to hear Bible based messages. People need to hear what the Word of God says. Preachers need to work overtime at making sure their preaching is solidly biblical. Now, as a part of that, their preaching needs to be applicable. It needs to be applicable, applicable to daily living. and preachers need to be clear in their communication. That's something that's vital today as well. They need to speak to the needs of people. They need to do so with clarity. They need to do so with confidence. They need to do so with competence. There needs to be a level of competence in preaching. But a lot of what cascades over pulpits today is anything but solid biblical preaching. Solid expository or text driven preaching as I like, to call it. It's, it's sermons that are very weak biblically and are very strong on trying to be applicational. 5 ways to be happy, 3 ways to love your mother, 7 ways to mow your lawn. You got these kind of sermons that are pabla, ah, cotton candy. And a lot of spiritual teeth are rotting in our churches because this is what they are being fed. And so, this is what I think is critical. We need preachers who will faithfully preach the Word lest there be a famine in the land of the Word of God.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. And I'm one that says, especially with what's going on in America, if we as preachers don't stand up and speak up to these issues in our culture, we're not giving people what they really. We're not arming people, arming our saints for the battle that they're going to face. Well, we have, Jay on the line from Texas. Jay, welcome to Real Truth for today.

Caroline: Good morning, gentlemen. I'm, amateur studying, eschatology for some time, especially, under Jon MacArthur. My question is, Ezekiel's war. Do you have any thoughts on when, where you would place that in the timeline?

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, great question, Jay. So, David, do you put it, before the rapture? Do you put it after the rapture? Do you put it before the tribulation begins? Where do you put the Ezekiel 30, 39?

Dr. David Allen: Yeah, I would Basically say that that is going to occur after the Rapture, but before the second coming. So probably in the latter one, half, three and a half years of the tribulation period would just be my read on that. I know there are some differing opinions on that, and I have not looked at that in a while, so I could not give a detailed answer. But my impression is based on previous study, and what I recall is I would probably place that, during the latter half of the tribulation, probably more toward the end of the tribulation. Jay?

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, it's, that's a, ah, that's a real conundrum. Where, where do you put that? Because they're seven years in cleaning it up, so it's got to have some time frame to it. that's a great question, Jay. I would encourage you. Jeff, Kinley has some good stuff on that. And, Mark Hitchcock. Those are guys that, are go to for me. Well, we have Charlene on the line from Mississippi. Charlene, welcome to Real Truth for today.

Caroline: Thank you. I would like to know, what is God's purpose? Purpose for evil? I know God has a purpose for everything since he created Lucifer, who had the potential to become the Satan.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, good question, David.

Dr. David Allen: Well, the, we need to distinguish a couple of things. God obviously takes evil and uses it, somehow converts it to bring about his will on the earth. That's crystal clear. Romans 8:28 would be one example of that. We know that all things work together for good to those who love God. That doesn't mean all things are good. Evil is still evil. But evil is going to be destroyed ultimately by Christ, the cosmic Christ. The resurrected Christ will destroy all evil. And so the, it's difficult to argue, exactly what the purpose of evil is. Now, I'm going to tell you one thing that I think is an error. Many of my Calvinist friends argue, that God needs evil to glorify himself. That would be a viewpoint that was held by, Jonathan Edwards, for example, a viewpoint held by many Calvinists, a viewpoint held by Jon Piper, or I assume still held by Piper. I think that's wrong. I don't think Scripture indicates that God needs evil. God doesn't need evil to glorify himself, nor is that taught in Scripture. I know that's a part of, of reformed, theology. I just don't think it's a part of biblical theology. So clearly though, God allows evil and therefore has a perfect purpose in all things that he does. But that doesn't mean in any way that God causes evil. nor did it, nor does it necessarily mean that God needs evil in order to fulfill his purposes or in order to glorify himself. I don't think that's the case either. You know, the idea is repugnant to me that God needs a two year old child to be raped and then buried alive, by a rapist and a murderer and a pedophile. That somehow, obviously that's evil, everybody would agree with that. But that God needs that in order to glorify himself, that's repugnant to me.

Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes, well, great, great answer. thank you, David, for being my guest. Dr. David Allen, go to preachingcoach.com and check out, all the great resources he has there. Hey, go out today, show Shine for Christ and share what great things the Lord has done for you. And God will use you as his witness. God bless you.

Where Did Evil Come From with Dr. David Allen

Where Did Evil Come From with Dr. David Allen

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