: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good morning and welcome to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here and I wanted to read to you a very familiar passage of scripture. It's the end of the sermon on the mount. And Jesus said in Matthew, chapter seven, beginning in verse 24. Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts upon them may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and burst against that house. And yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act upon them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rains descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and burst against that house. And it fell. And great was its fall. Well, I hold in my hands a brand new book by George Barna, how to Think Like Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview View. What, if the way you think is shaping the way you live and keeping you from becoming who God created you to be. Now, George Barner is the Director of research and co founder of the Cultural Research center at Arizona Christian University. He's also a professor focusing on worldview assessment and development and cultural transformation. He's written many, many books and best sellers, NewSong York Times bestsellers, award winning books. And this is his latest book, how to Think Like Jes Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. George welcome to Real Truth for Today.
George Barna: Pastor Jeff Great to be with you thanks for having me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, okay. I told you, as soon as you came on, I think that every pastor in America ought to get this book and ought to preach a seven message sermon series on the seven cornerstones to build a biblical worldview. and I'm not just blowing smoke, George. As I was reading through that, I said, okay, the research shows that we're not doing a good job with these fundamental, foundational truths. And churches, people that call themselves Christians, they don't believe these things. What's the percentage? Is it 4%?
George Barna: Well, that's people with a biblical worldview. The percentage of people who believe each of the seven cornerstones varies by cornerstone. But. But they're all a minority, of, people. And it goes down into the single digits on some of them. So when you put it all together, we're looking at roughly 4 to 5% who would say, yeah, I believe these seven things. I mean, it's ridiculously low because, I mean, essentially what we're looking at here is what I would call Sunday School 101.
George Barna: Right.
George Barna: These are, fundamentals of the Christian faith. They're not debatable. You know, they're not controversial, but they're also not believed. And they're not lived by most Americans.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: No, it's really a concern. So as I was reading through the book, George, I thought about the, famous statement from Jon Adams, the second president of the United States of America, when he said, our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. And, Jeremy Boring, he recently came on and said, well, whose job is it to keep America moral and religious? That's the job of the church. That's the job of pastors. And so, when we see how little, impact we've made on the culture and how much impact culture has made on the church, it's hard not to get a little discouraged and say, hey, we hadn't been doing our job.
George Barna: But you see, I look at it a little bit differently. I say, well, let's not get discouraged. Let's be thrilled that the Lord gave us the tools to be able to discern where do we stand now that we've been able to measure this and we can identify, oh, my goodness, here's our weaknesses. That's how you build up a strong church. That's how you build a strong nation, by knowing where you are and by addressing the problems that you've got. So the fact that we now know that only 4% of adults have A biblical worldview, that we've got a weak foundation, that churches have not been doing a good job at presenting these things to the people, and that parents, who, According to Deuteronomy 6, are the ones who are responsible for teaching this to their children, they're not doing it. Great. Now we know how to fix this, but now we've got to have the resolve to do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Okay, so you start the book off with those verses in Matthew 7. You're going to either build on God's word and build on the rock, or you're going to build on man's word. As Ken Ham likes to say, there are only two foundations. It's God's word or man's word. And so the book really is focused on, okay, we're building on man's word. So much of the time, we're building on feelings and culture. And unless we get back to the rock of God's word, it's never going to work. And so let's talk. You talk about those. You call them life quakes. explain that a little bit for us.
George Barna: Well, you know, we. We go through things in our life that are kind of the equivalent of an earthquake to a house, you know, where. Where you really shake. And, you know, you've got to figure out, am I going to be able to stand up and be strong enough to this? Well, what gives you strength in life? Well, it's got to be truth. Truth is the thing that helps you to figure out where you are and where you're going and how you're going to get there and how to get there best. And so, you know, I think right now we're going through a time where our culture is being shaken. God's allowing it to be shaken so that we can, figure out, are we going to stand with God? Are we going to stand on his word?
George Barna: Or.
George Barna: Or are we gonna continue to look inward to our feelings? Because that's the thing that's gonna save us. That's what most Americans actually believe, is that it's our feelings that are gonna direct us forward into the path of personal righteousness, not God's righteousness. And that's how we're gonna make it through. So this is one of those times where you gotta deal with reality. and the reality is now your feelings aren't what you need today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. I. I say often, George, from the pulpit, you know, truth is not what you think. It's not what you feel. It's not what you want it to be. It's what God says. And until we get back to that, then it's. I mean, it's just the wild, wild west out there. I mean, nothing really means anything.
George Barna: Well, and, And, you know, teaching at a university and speaking to a lot of groups around the country, one of the things that I'm often asked is, you know, how do you. How do you know where to find truth? How do you know if there is truth? So. Well, you know, it starts with scripture. You know, the Bible, which we can prove is relevant, it's reliable, it's trustworthy, and we've got arguments and evidence for all of that. But in the end, when you. When you, pull aside the curtain, you say, yeah, but what does it come down to? Well, Jon writes in Scripture that God is truth. You know, he can be nothing other than truth. And so when he speaks to us as he does through his Word, what's he giving us? He's giving us truth. Why would he do that? Because he knows that we're tempted by lies. We're tempted by deception. We're tempted by manipulation. Why? Because that's what God's enemy wants to do with us. He wants to take us off course. God said no. Look, I'll give you the document you need to keep you on the straight and narrow, to keep you on the right path, moving in the right direction for the right reasons. But you gotta read it, you gotta believe it, and you gotta do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: George, when you. The research that was done for this book and all the surveys that you've done over the years, do the results come back and shock you any, or is it oftentimes what you think it was gonna be?
George Barna: You know, to be honest, having been doing this for, I just realized last week that this is my 50th year of doing, research surveys. After 50 years, if you haven't figured out where things are going, you should probably look for another profession. So, yeah, none of this surprises me much. It does disappoint me. But as I say, but it's a reality check. It gives us a direction to move in.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, okay, so, seven cornerstones to building a biblical worldview. Cornerstone number one. The God of the Bible exists and, and is the creator and ruler of the universe and everything in it. He is all knowing, all powerful, ever present, eternal, holy and perfect, merciful and just. He is alive, invincible, unique and loves every person. That is definitely Sunday School 101.
George Barna: You know, let me tell you a quick story. Cause sometimes people ask me, why did you write this book, you know, and I wrote it for two reasons. Number one was I was doing research on people's worldview. And one night, as a research guy, a nerd, I'm up in my office at 2 in the morning playing with data, having a fun time, and this correlation jumps out. An 83% correlation between seven particular beliefs and the probability of developing a biblical worldview. And then I looked at, played with a little bit more and found that if you take out any one, one of those seven, didn't matter which one, take out any one of those seven, and the probability of you developing a biblical WorldView drops to 2%. Wow, that's an astounding correlation. I mean, I've been, you know, sociologists for decades. I rarely if ever have seen a correlation like that. So, okay, I got to write about this. I got to check it out. And then the other reason was we have an online assessment that people can take to evaluate their worldview. And I started going through all the results of the assessments people had taken, you know, not knowing who any of them were or anything, just looking at the bottom line, realizing most people don't believe these seven things. And so I thought, wow, we got to help them get to the point where at least they, they use these seven to build a solid foundation. And that's how this book came about. So, yeah, it's one of those things where when, when I looked at the seven and thought, yeah, I'm going to get people excited about this. I'm going to write a book about, I'm going to speak about. Then I looked at him and I thought, oh, no, I'm going to be laughed off the stage covered Sunday School 101, you know, big deal, you know, but the real discovery here isn't that I discovered Sunday, School 101. It's that I discovered people don't believe.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
George Barna: We teach in 101, and they're not willing to convert that into a lifestyle so that they can approximate the life of Jesus.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, that's why I go back to pastors need to preach this because people don't believe it. Now, I would think cornerstone number one about God, that would be maybe the more, readily accepted cornerstone for people. True or not true, it's probably the
George Barna: most readily accepted or the second most readily accepted of the seven. But understand that none of these seven is embraced by a majority of Americans. So when we talk about this kind of God, the God of the Bible that we have come to know and love, what we know is that today only 40% of American adults believe in the existence of the God of the Bible as so described. Now that's dropped from 73% in 1992 to 40% today.
George Barna: Wow.
George Barna: That's a massive, very rapid change of a very fundamental precept.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, that kind of fits with the falling away the Bible talks about. And it's coming rapidly. And you know, the idea. Okay. It's the church's job to make the people moral and religious. And I do think that that case, can easily be made and we haven't done a good job with that. But it's like you said, don't get discouraged. Just look at it as an opportunity. We have an opportunity to speak the truth in love. Okay, so, George, cornerstone number two, that was the one that really lit up for me. Okay. It's just so our listeners can hear it. All human beings, including you, are sinful by nature. That sin, nature has moral considerations and consequences. I thought that one, maybe more so than all the others, is the one people would say, I don't believe that.
George Barna: no, actually it's not. What we discovered is that most Americans, at least adults, believe that there is such a thing as sin. Most Americans, a bare majority, believe that most other people have sinned. It's a minority of Americans who believe that they've sinned. And when you strip it all away, you know, you keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. You find that the mental calculus that Americans are doing is I'm better than other people so I don't have to worry about this. This isn't an issue for me. So that's part of what we're up against.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to George Barna and we're talking about his brand new book, how to Think Like Jesus. Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. let me encourage you with all my heart to pick up a copy of this book and know what we're up against and how we, you know, Sunday School 101. But people haven't been to Sunday school, so it's new stuff for them. And we have a great opportunity to influence the culture for Christ. We'll be right back.
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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to prolific author and researcher George Barna. Dr. George Barna. He has a brand new book out, how to Think Like Jesus. Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. And as far as these seven cornerstones go, George Weiss said surveys shows that 4% of Christians have this worldview. Adults, 4% of all adults across the board. Okay. As for, for professing Christians, how many professing Christians would hold to all seven?
George Barna: well, 6% of those who call themselves Christian have a biblical worldview.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow. Okay, so it's not much different.
George Barna: Not that much different. And if we look at people who regularly attend evangelical churches, it jumps all the way to 11%.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, we looked at the first cornerstone, which is, understanding who God is, the biblical view of God and, Creator, sustainer, redeemer, all the things about the Lord, all knowing, all powerful. But now cornerstone number two was the one that really got me because as you delve into it, it's the subject of sin. All human beings, including you, are sinful by nature. But exactly what that means. People know, George, that they're not perfect. So they would probably concede, okay, well, I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner. But as far as the consequences go, the wages of sin is death. I don't think they agree with that. And they don't like you to say if they're living in open sexual immorality, that how dare you call me a sinner? that's what really, hit for me. It's like, okay, that's a big one. Because it seems like once you accept the fact that you're a sinner, you can't fix that. And you are in desperate need before God. You're kind of 90% home, understanding I'm in trouble. And most people don't understand that they're in trouble.
George Barna: No, we live in a society that's not willing to embrace the idea that there's something inherently wrong with us. And so you look at all the advertising, you look at so much in our culture that's designed to make us feel good about ourselves, to make us feel happy. You know, when we interview people, we ask them, you know, what. What's your goal in life? I want to be happy. Wow, that's sad. You know, I mean, God doesn't even say, you know, the goal of your life should be to be happy because I want you to have joy and fullness, you know, and how do you get that? By having that relationship with him. So we've completely misunderstood how these things.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, as we shared in the first segment, George, the parable Jesus told about the building on the rock or building on the sand, the storms are coming. Both of those houses had the exact same. The rains descended, the floods came, the winds blew and burst against that house. One stands and one falls. the biblical worldview is not if you want it, take it. If you don't, it's not like a cafeteria where, you know, you don't want pea salad, so you don't grab that. This is a life and death thing.
George Barna: Well, and it's interesting that you, you mentioned the word cafeteria, because when we look at the worldview that 94, maybe 95% of adults possess today, it's something called syncretism, which is kind of a cafeteria approach to worldview. It's a cut and paste, customized worldview where because we're exposed to multiple worldviews every day, what we tend to do is we listen, we watch, we think, and then we embrace the stuff that feels good to us. And so some of it might be postmodernism, some of it might be secular humanism, some of it might be Eastern mysticism, modern Marxism, Satanism, biblical theism. Doesn't matter if we think it's going to work for us, we tend to embrace it. And that's how we get into trouble. Because rather than trying to embrace truth as the thing that's going to sustain us as we go through all the trials and tribulations, what we're relying upon instead is our feelings. I feel good about that idea. I feel good about this philosophy. I really like that ideology. It may or may not be true, but we're not even thinking about truth. We're thinking, if it feels good, it must be true. M so that's this whole cafeteria mentality that we've got for worldview in America.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. When I was reading about the syncretism, what came into my mind was, Acts, chapter 17. That's what they accused Paul of being. A seed picker. You're, an idol babbler. You're like a gutter sparrow. You get truth here and there. You kind of patchwork it together. But that's exactly James Tallarico. He says, you know, I learned from all the faiths, and I put it all together. so, George, tell us why Christianity doesn't work that way.
George Barna: because all of those other worldviews don't believe that there's any such thing as absolute moral truth. None of those worldviews have a truth giver at the center of their worldview to point them in the right direction, to correct them when they're wrong. I mean, Christianity is unique. Unique. And it's unlike anything else that you're going to find in any other worldview. So the beauty of it is that we have this body of truth that hasn't changed in more than 2,000 years, and it will never change for the rest of eternity because it's based on the truth giver, who's eternal and who's unchanging and who's proven over the course of time. So it's a very stark contrast between Christianity and whatever other worldview you want to take. Marxism happens to be a popular one today. Socialism is what we typically call it. But, when you start tearing apart socialism, you find out, well, that's not true, or this can't work. That's not going to happen. But people are buying into elements of Marxism even though it's based on a flawed doctrine or flawed philosophy of life.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, you know, I was thinking, too, George, on cornerstone number two, about sin. Well, the Bible speaks specifically about people. First Jon, chapter one, verse eight. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. And then in verse 10, if we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. That really describes our culture today. they don't. They don't deny that they're imperfect, but they don't really like the idea of thinking they're sinners.
George Barna: Well, you see, and I think from a Christian mindset, I think our perspective is sin matters because it defines who we are. Until we embrace Christ as our Savior, then we have a new identity in Christ. And that sin is not going to decapitate me eternally. It's not going to destroy me, because now I have that new identity in Christ. I've been saved from the consequences of that sin, which is what Cornerstone three is all about. But we've got this issue where in America today we tend to be very short sighted. I mean, you know, I do a lot of political research, and what I know is that Americans forget what happened six months or more ago. We don't have a very long memory. And our memory for ourselves, I believe, based on the research, is even shorter. You know, so we're just going day to day. You know, we're just kind of making it up as we go along, trying to feel as good as we can for as long as we can without any kind of moral anchoring that's going to help us recognize, you know what, lying was wrong yesterday, it's wrong today, it's wrong tomorrow. Cheating, stealing, adultery, you know, any of the murder, any of those things. They're always wrong. It's not like, well, I'm going to wait and see how the circumstances line
George Barna: up because maybe it's okay for me to lie here because it's in my best interest. He actually had a majority of Americans now to believe that lying is morally acceptable as long as it advances your personal interests.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
George Barna: Wow, that's crazy. So antithetical to what scripture teaches. But then when you ask, gee, how did our culture get in the shape that it's in? Well, it's because we've made those kinds of shifts in our moral reasoning.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Cornerstone number three of the seven, the consequences of your sin can only be forgiven and eliminated through Jesus Christ. That forgiveness is available only through your personal sincere acknowledgment and confession of your sins and complete reliance on his grace for the forgiveness of those sins. Okay, so I would think that would get tremendous pushback from the world.
George Barna: Well, sure it does. I mean, and let me give you the, I think the best evidence for that kind of pushback. Currently, only 2% of adults in America believe that when they die, they're going to go to hell. Now, when we ask things like, well, what do you think is going to happen to you after you die? Only about one out of three Americans say that. When I die, I know that I'm going to go to heaven or be eternally in God's presence only because I've confessed my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. So that currently is running around 32%. You've got 2% who say, when I die, I'm probably going to go to hell. What about the other 66%? You know, they think, ah, it's not something I have to worry about. You know, God's understanding, he's loving, he's going to forgive me. There's universal forgiveness. I've been better than most other people, so of course he's going to let me. You know, there's all kinds of excuses that we make, but for the most part, Americans refuse to go back to the truth document that God gave to us that explains how this works, to see how the creator of me and the entire system that I live within, how he says it's going to work. We think that we've got a better way, we've got a better explanation. You know, I, recently was witnessing to a person who's a lawyer, you know, and I was explaining all of this to him, and at the end he said, you know, Barna Beckhoff, okay, I'm not worried about it. I'm better than most people. And if God wants to argue this, I'm sure that I can present a good enough case to him for my life that he's going to say, oh, well, excuse me, I didn't realize. Thank you. Yes, please come in. That's the way that so many Americans are thinking that we can outwit God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, that's really scary. You know, when you read about the Great White Throne judgment, Revelation chapter 20, verses 11 through 15, it's a terrifying experience. And, you know, for any true Christian who knows that we, feel for people, we speak the truth in love, because we don't want anyone to be at the Great White Throne Judgment. Everybody there goes to hell. And, it's a terrifying thing, as the writer of Hebrews says, to fall into the hands of the living God.
George Barna: It is. And, you know, one of the things that I find about Americans is that we don't like things that are black and white. We like that gray part where, you know, we can kind of maneuver and we can persuade and we can manipulate and do all that. But the Bible isn't a gray book. The Bible is black and white. It's like, this is the truth. You may not like it, you may not feel good about it, but this is how it is. So, you know, I grew up in NewSong York and used to have an experience. Hey, you don't have to like it, you just have to deal with it. and that's Kind of what the
George Barna: gospel is, you know?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I mean, the Lord said to Moses, I am who I am. We want God to be different. We want him to be, the God that winks at our sin. He doesn't do that.
George Barna: Yeah.
George Barna: I think the second part of that statement from God wasn't recorded. You know, I am m. Who I am.
George Barna: Yeah.
George Barna: So deal with it, you know.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So George, I tell my church family this all the time. I said, one of the most important passages of scripture you can ever memorize is Exodus 34, verses 6 and 7, where God reveals himself, the Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness and truth. Truth, who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin. Yet he will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations. That truth or those statements about God that he makes about himself, those are repeated over and over and over again in Scripture. now that didn't make it per se into the book, but it's all over the book.
George Barna: Yeah. and that relates to what I find in our research, which is that so many people justify themselves, not looking for God's justification. They've come up with their own by saying, you know what? Look, bad people get away with stuff. Bad stuff all the time. I'm not a bad person, so I don't have to worry. You know, those people, maybe they have to worry. But, you know, I'm going to live my life the way I need to live it. And God's certainly going to understand you
George Barna: are not good enough to stand in front of the God who created all things. The God who's holy and perfect and righteous. And so, you know, get over yourself and recognize that at some point you're going to stand before him and have given account for your life. You're going to review everything that went on in your life. Do you think you're going to out argue God? Do you think you're going to convince them that you are good enough to make it into the presence of the Holy One. He cannot be in the presence of anything sinful and dark and dirty and garbage. No, don't take that risk. Even if you want to do this as an instance of probability, go with the side that says, I am going to go with the one who seems to always win.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, George, I think you would agree with this. and this is woven into the book but it's not. Maybe not said specifically, but as a society, we've lost the fear of God. We had that years ago. And when you don't have the fear of God, then it's kind of. Katy, bar the door. yeah.
George Barna: And I love, What is it? Ecclesiastes 12. Solomon comes to the end of his writing there, and he says, so what's the end of all this? Fear God and keep his commands.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
: Period.
George Barna: End of story.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
George Barna: Yeah. Good advice.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, I wrote that in one of the chapters. I wrote Ecclesiastes 12, 13, 14. Because this applies to every person. For the Lord will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. And, you know, the thing for us, George, as Christians, it's not like we're saying we're better than anybody. We're not. We're. We're the ones that. We recognize that we're. Isaiah. Woe is me, for I'm undone. I'm a man of unclean lips. And if not for the blood of Jesus, we stand condemned.
George Barna: Yeah. We'd have nothing going for us. So thank you, Lord.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve talking to George Varna about his new book, how to Think Like Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. You're listening to Real Truth for today on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhisheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schreid.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to George Barna, the prolific author and researcher. And the book is called how to think like seven cornerstones to build a biblical worldview. And, Dr. Barna and I are having a great time just talking through the cornerstones. And so we went through the first three, and now we're on cornerstone number four. Absolute moral truth exists. These truths are. Are defined by God described in the Bible and are unchanging across time and cultures. well, that's a tough one in our culture today to think about absolute moral truth.
George Barna: Well, it sure is. And we know that about two thirds of all Americans say there is not and cannot be any such thing as absolute moral truth, because all truth depends on the individual and his or her circumstances. In other words, how they feel about what's going on around them and. And what they make of it, what they choose to do. And so we've got, you know, the common expressions, you know, your truth and my truth. It's like, yeah, get over that, too. Because there is no such thing. There's only God's truth and the truth of whether or not you're going to live in accordance with it or whether you're going to reject it and pay the price. So it's imperative that we know what God's truth is. And, part of the reason why that matters so much is because with all of these things, Pastor, it's not just about having the right thinking. You know, you've got to be willing to convert your theology into a lifestyle. And that's what this is all about, really, is. Okay. These seven cornerstones are not just beliefs. They're beliefs and behaviors that enable you to be more Christlike. The objective here is to become a disciple. And so what does that mean? It means you're an imitator of Christ. How do you imitate Christ? By living like him. Well, what would cause you to live like him? One of the things I teach all my students here is you do what you believe. The research convincingly for 50 years has shown me people do what they really believe. Now, sometimes they'll say they believe something, but they really don't. They know it's what you want to hear, and they know it's what's going to make them popular and it'll help them to fit in, whatever. But what do they really believe? If you want to know, you watch their behavior. So if you want to live like Jesus, you've got to first think like Jesus so that then you can live like him. you'll convert those beliefs into that Jesus like life. That's what we're trying to get across here. And that's why truth is so critical. Because if you want to be Christlike,
George Barna: you've got to embrace the same truth principles that he did. You've got to follow through on the same truth principles that he did. You've got to share the same truth principles that you did.
George Barna: It's really kind of the centerpiece of a lot of what we're talking about.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: There was a famous quote, I think it was by Peter Lord, if you remember, way back when, Peter Lord, and he said, I still remember my pastor quoting this. what we really believe, we practice. All the rest is just religious talk. And that's exactly what you're saying. So that's got to be a conviction that we really believe this. And it's going to affect the way. I can't just be a hearer of The Word. I have to be a doer of the Word. And if I'm a hearer only, I'm not really somebody that believes it.
George Barna: Yeah, it's true. And part of the challenge is that we've got so many people inside our churches who are rejecting all of these cornerstones. And so we've got a situation here where. Well, wait a minute. If you don't believe there is absolute moral truth, why are you bothering to come to the church?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?
George Barna: What is it you think you're going to get here? A bunch of friends, a free meal, a nice program, fun teaching that you can take notes at? I mean, that's not the point. The point here is we're coming together, you know, not only for iron to sharpen iron, but for God to sharpen us, for him to put on display his truths for us. And so you've got to realize that, no, there are things that don't change based on the circumstances or your feelings. These are true whether you want to admit they're true or not. And they're not going to change over time because they're true.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Interestingly, George, I had somebody that was, asking me about my support for Israel, and they said, has your support for Israel changed over the months of what was going on in Gaza and that kind of thing? I said, my support for Israel is based on Genesis, chapter 12. I, don't think that's changed. So it would never change. regardless of what Israel does, I'm going to support them. I might not support individual things that they do that. I said, well, they shouldn't do that. But I support Israel because it's rooted in scripture, it's not rooted in culture.
George Barna: Yeah, yeah, great point. And you know, we tend to take a political mindset into anything. Do I like the administration? Do I like, you know, the battle plan that they have? Ah, that's not really the relevant point. It's like these are God's chosen people and we are called to support them, to embrace them, to pray for them, you know, to bless them and be blessed by them, you know, but you wouldn't know that unless you read the Scriptures, okay?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Cornerstone number five. The entire Bible is true, reliable and relevant, making it the best moral guide for every person in all situations. So I recently saw this was on YouTube, ah, Ken Ham sat down with some other, guys, and they were talking about Genesis and they were talking about the age of the earth. And you know, that can be a contentious subject even among believers. And what I like about Ken Ham so much is he just holds to his guns and he says, the Bible doesn't teach evolution. The Bible teach. It tells us, and it gives us dates, it gives us ages of things. And, you know, you're. You're adding in what man has said to come up with this idea. But if you just go by the Bible and if you were born on a desert island and all you had was the Bible, you would never believe in evolution.
George Barna: Yeah.
George Barna: And man, when you ask, you know, is. Is some of this discouraging. I think one of the discouraging things for me is the fact that we've actually lost ground with the percentage of people who believe that God's word is, is. Is real, it's relevant, it's reliable, it's trustworthy, over time, you know, that's certainly one of the things that we ought to be impressing upon the lives of our children. Knowing that a person's worldview is developed by the age of 13. Well, then, you know, between 15, 18 months of age and the age of 13, when that worldview develops, we've got to make sure that they understand how critical the Bible is in the development of their worldview. That if they want to know truth, that's where you find truth. Because the truth giver gave us that book to live by. He wants us to thrive. He wants us to succeed. He knew that we couldn't do it on our own, we wouldn't figure it out on our own. You can see how crazy our culture has become as we try to figure out things on our own. And so, yes, that's why we need the Bible to kind of whip us back into shape, get us back on the right pathway to, you know, God's view of righteousness, not our view of it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, George, let me ask you a question that, ah, I don't mean to get you into hot water at all, but, I'm just curious. So I. I did a whole program about, Ed Young Jr. Was on the. He's been on social media talking about, you know, the job of a preacher is to entertain, because that means you hold somebody's attention. And, you know, a lot of these guys, a lot of pastors are pushing back, and it's like, our job's not to entertain people. And, you know, he was trying to justify these expensive props. He was driving this, I don't know how much, $500,000 rolls Royce onto the stage and talking about, you know, I'm using this and it's not gimmicky. It's godly. That's. Jesus used props and, you know, metaphors and parables and all this stuff. But, you know, what really bothered people was this idea that, you know, the job of a pastor is to be an entertainer and to entertain the people because you want to hold their attention. And that seems to me, George, that we've gotten into serious trouble when the pastor becomes a celebrity or an entertainer. He's dispenser of truth. He's to be a faithful shepherd that leads the sheep, feeds the sheep, and cares for the sheep.
George Barna: Yeah, I mean, the way I always describe it, when people say, well, what do you think a pastor is? I say, well, very simply, a disciple maker. And so what does a disciple maker do? Their primary thing is to point people to Jesus, show them the truth. How do you show that to them? You show it through them, through your lifestyle. you show it to them through how you're growing in your relationship with Jesus. Clearly inferring there that you need a relationship with Jesus, too. We're not trying to bring you into a religion. Religion has no part in my life, relationship with God. That. That's what my life is all about. That's what the life of every believer is all about, that relationship. And so I'm not worried about denominationalism. I'm not worried about the size of churches. I'm not worried about entertainment, you know, whatever. But give me God's word through the way that you live it, the way that you teach it, the way that we can discuss it, and the way that you hold me accountable to it. That's what I want a disciple maker to be doing in my life as a disciple of Christ. It's the only way I'm going to become more Christ.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Like, okay, George, so 4% of Americans have, all seven of these. 6% of professing Christians have all seven of these. what about pastors?
George Barna: Yeah, this shocked a lot of people when we did the research. We find that currently among all types of pastors, senior pastors, teaching pastors, children's associate, you know, whatever, all pastors, it's, 37% have a biblical worldview. Among senior pastors, it's 41%. Among children's pastors, who I would contend are the most important pastors of all because they've got the key population that, that we're trying to minister to, it's only 12%. One out of every eight has a biblical worldview. And, so, you know, I've gotten in trouble for telling parents you know, you may be better off not taking your child to a church, but let me suggest this. Instead of not going to a church, do a lot of homework. Find a church that's got a great children's pastor who knows Jesus, loves Jesus, is discipling your children into Jesus. That's the church you want to go to, not the place where you feel most comfortable, where your neighbors go. Nicest building, all that. That's superfluous. What you need to do is find pastors who know, love, and serve God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul. And it's obvious, through their lifestyle, through their teaching, and through the relationships that you build with them.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Okay, so cornerstone six. The universal purpose of human life is to glorify God by knowing, loving, and serving him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. That's kind of what you just said. And then number seven, just so we don't miss this one. Success on earth is best indicated by consistent obedience to God, in thoughts, words and actions. Okay, so, George, out of all the seven, what are the top two or three that people really struggle to say? Okay, I agree with that.
George Barna: That success is consistent obedience to God. That's number one on the losers parade. people do not believe that. No, that can't be right. Am I nice? Am I kind? Am I good? You know, that's how you determine whether or not you're successful or, you know, have I worked hard and been able to achieve meaningful and significant things with my life? That would argue. So, yeah, we really wrestle with that one. We wrestle with the idea of, you know, salvation through, through the grace of Christ. we, we tend to believe now I'm going to earn my salvation. You've got entire denominations that are teaching, be a good enough person so you can earn your way into heaven. so those two are really problematic. Maybe the other one also is this idea of, that there is absolute moral truth, that it doesn't change, that it's knowable, and that is going to affect your life. So you better figure out where that absolute moral truth is coming from. And the answer is the Bible.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: George, have you met many in politics that would have a biblical worldview? All seven of these cornerstones, I've met
George Barna: some, I've had the privilege of working with some, and that's why I worked with them. But, you know, I'm not God. I can't judge everybody. But if I were to estimate how many of them had a biblical worldview, I would say it's not common. Because it's not popular. You know, it's not going to be something that people want to vote for. You know, somebody who's going to say, look, I'm going to stand up for these principles and that might make your life tougher for a little while until you understand them. When we're able to put the whole
George Barna: framework together, that's how it is.
George Barna: You got to live with it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so if a pastor said, I'm going to pick up this book, how to Think Like Jesus, and I'm going to preach through seven sermons on these seven cornerstones in the church, where do you think he's going to get the most pushback?
George Barna: I don't think you'll get any pushback. the problem is that when we preach, we tend not to, number one, land on, implementation applications of these things and then secondly, hold people accountable for those. Now if we were to do that, that would change the game. And so when you talk about these seven things, just like we said in the beginning, this is Sunday School 101, people are going to step back and say, ah, I know these, you know, I'm comfortable with these. Well, you shouldn't be, you know, because apparently you're not living them out. That's what the research is showing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: George, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's always a pleasure, to have you on and you're just a wealth of information and I just appreciate your spirit. You're just a great guy. And so thanks for writing this book, how to Think Like Jesus. Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. Hey, check it out. Go online and pick up a copy of this book and hey, get it for your pastor and say, hey, Pastor, what if you preached a sermon series based on these seven cornerstones? It could be, life changing, church changing. And as more and more people do it, it could be nation changing. So go out today, shine for Christ, share what great things the Lord has done for you. And guess what? God will use you, you as his witness. God bless you.
: Welcome to Real Truth for Today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve, Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas. Now, here's Pastor Jeff.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, good morning and welcome to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here and I wanted to read to you a very familiar passage of scripture. It's the end of the sermon on the mount. And Jesus said in Matthew, chapter seven, beginning in verse 24. Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts upon them may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and burst against that house. And yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act upon them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rains descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and burst against that house. And it fell. And great was its fall. Well, I hold in my hands a brand new book by George Barna, how to Think Like Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview View. What, if the way you think is shaping the way you live and keeping you from becoming who God created you to be. Now, George Barner is the Director of research and co founder of the Cultural Research center at Arizona Christian University. He's also a professor focusing on worldview assessment and development and cultural transformation. He's written many, many books and best sellers, NewSong York Times bestsellers, award winning books. And this is his latest book, how to Think Like Jes Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. George welcome to Real Truth for Today.
George Barna: Pastor Jeff Great to be with you thanks for having me.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, okay. I told you, as soon as you came on, I think that every pastor in America ought to get this book and ought to preach a seven message sermon series on the seven cornerstones to build a biblical worldview. and I'm not just blowing smoke, George. As I was reading through that, I said, okay, the research shows that we're not doing a good job with these fundamental, foundational truths. And churches, people that call themselves Christians, they don't believe these things. What's the percentage? Is it 4%?
George Barna: Well, that's people with a biblical worldview. The percentage of people who believe each of the seven cornerstones varies by cornerstone. But. But they're all a minority, of, people. And it goes down into the single digits on some of them. So when you put it all together, we're looking at roughly 4 to 5% who would say, yeah, I believe these seven things. I mean, it's ridiculously low because, I mean, essentially what we're looking at here is what I would call Sunday School 101.
George Barna: Right.
George Barna: These are, fundamentals of the Christian faith. They're not debatable. You know, they're not controversial, but they're also not believed. And they're not lived by most Americans.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: No, it's really a concern. So as I was reading through the book, George, I thought about the, famous statement from Jon Adams, the second president of the United States of America, when he said, our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. And, Jeremy Boring, he recently came on and said, well, whose job is it to keep America moral and religious? That's the job of the church. That's the job of pastors. And so, when we see how little, impact we've made on the culture and how much impact culture has made on the church, it's hard not to get a little discouraged and say, hey, we hadn't been doing our job.
George Barna: But you see, I look at it a little bit differently. I say, well, let's not get discouraged. Let's be thrilled that the Lord gave us the tools to be able to discern where do we stand now that we've been able to measure this and we can identify, oh, my goodness, here's our weaknesses. That's how you build up a strong church. That's how you build a strong nation, by knowing where you are and by addressing the problems that you've got. So the fact that we now know that only 4% of adults have A biblical worldview, that we've got a weak foundation, that churches have not been doing a good job at presenting these things to the people, and that parents, who, According to Deuteronomy 6, are the ones who are responsible for teaching this to their children, they're not doing it. Great. Now we know how to fix this, but now we've got to have the resolve to do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Okay, so you start the book off with those verses in Matthew 7. You're going to either build on God's word and build on the rock, or you're going to build on man's word. As Ken Ham likes to say, there are only two foundations. It's God's word or man's word. And so the book really is focused on, okay, we're building on man's word. So much of the time, we're building on feelings and culture. And unless we get back to the rock of God's word, it's never going to work. And so let's talk. You talk about those. You call them life quakes. explain that a little bit for us.
George Barna: Well, you know, we. We go through things in our life that are kind of the equivalent of an earthquake to a house, you know, where. Where you really shake. And, you know, you've got to figure out, am I going to be able to stand up and be strong enough to this? Well, what gives you strength in life? Well, it's got to be truth. Truth is the thing that helps you to figure out where you are and where you're going and how you're going to get there and how to get there best. And so, you know, I think right now we're going through a time where our culture is being shaken. God's allowing it to be shaken so that we can, figure out, are we going to stand with God? Are we going to stand on his word?
George Barna: Or.
George Barna: Or are we gonna continue to look inward to our feelings? Because that's the thing that's gonna save us. That's what most Americans actually believe, is that it's our feelings that are gonna direct us forward into the path of personal righteousness, not God's righteousness. And that's how we're gonna make it through. So this is one of those times where you gotta deal with reality. and the reality is now your feelings aren't what you need today.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right. I. I say often, George, from the pulpit, you know, truth is not what you think. It's not what you feel. It's not what you want it to be. It's what God says. And until we get back to that, then it's. I mean, it's just the wild, wild west out there. I mean, nothing really means anything.
George Barna: Well, and, And, you know, teaching at a university and speaking to a lot of groups around the country, one of the things that I'm often asked is, you know, how do you. How do you know where to find truth? How do you know if there is truth? So. Well, you know, it starts with scripture. You know, the Bible, which we can prove is relevant, it's reliable, it's trustworthy, and we've got arguments and evidence for all of that. But in the end, when you. When you, pull aside the curtain, you say, yeah, but what does it come down to? Well, Jon writes in Scripture that God is truth. You know, he can be nothing other than truth. And so when he speaks to us as he does through his Word, what's he giving us? He's giving us truth. Why would he do that? Because he knows that we're tempted by lies. We're tempted by deception. We're tempted by manipulation. Why? Because that's what God's enemy wants to do with us. He wants to take us off course. God said no. Look, I'll give you the document you need to keep you on the straight and narrow, to keep you on the right path, moving in the right direction for the right reasons. But you gotta read it, you gotta believe it, and you gotta do it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: George, when you. The research that was done for this book and all the surveys that you've done over the years, do the results come back and shock you any, or is it oftentimes what you think it was gonna be?
George Barna: You know, to be honest, having been doing this for, I just realized last week that this is my 50th year of doing, research surveys. After 50 years, if you haven't figured out where things are going, you should probably look for another profession. So, yeah, none of this surprises me much. It does disappoint me. But as I say, but it's a reality check. It gives us a direction to move in.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, okay, so, seven cornerstones to building a biblical worldview. Cornerstone number one. The God of the Bible exists and, and is the creator and ruler of the universe and everything in it. He is all knowing, all powerful, ever present, eternal, holy and perfect, merciful and just. He is alive, invincible, unique and loves every person. That is definitely Sunday School 101.
George Barna: You know, let me tell you a quick story. Cause sometimes people ask me, why did you write this book, you know, and I wrote it for two reasons. Number one was I was doing research on people's worldview. And one night, as a research guy, a nerd, I'm up in my office at 2 in the morning playing with data, having a fun time, and this correlation jumps out. An 83% correlation between seven particular beliefs and the probability of developing a biblical worldview. And then I looked at, played with a little bit more and found that if you take out any one, one of those seven, didn't matter which one, take out any one of those seven, and the probability of you developing a biblical WorldView drops to 2%. Wow, that's an astounding correlation. I mean, I've been, you know, sociologists for decades. I rarely if ever have seen a correlation like that. So, okay, I got to write about this. I got to check it out. And then the other reason was we have an online assessment that people can take to evaluate their worldview. And I started going through all the results of the assessments people had taken, you know, not knowing who any of them were or anything, just looking at the bottom line, realizing most people don't believe these seven things. And so I thought, wow, we got to help them get to the point where at least they, they use these seven to build a solid foundation. And that's how this book came about. So, yeah, it's one of those things where when, when I looked at the seven and thought, yeah, I'm going to get people excited about this. I'm going to write a book about, I'm going to speak about. Then I looked at him and I thought, oh, no, I'm going to be laughed off the stage covered Sunday School 101, you know, big deal, you know, but the real discovery here isn't that I discovered Sunday, School 101. It's that I discovered people don't believe.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
George Barna: We teach in 101, and they're not willing to convert that into a lifestyle so that they can approximate the life of Jesus.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, that's why I go back to pastors need to preach this because people don't believe it. Now, I would think cornerstone number one about God, that would be maybe the more, readily accepted cornerstone for people. True or not true, it's probably the
George Barna: most readily accepted or the second most readily accepted of the seven. But understand that none of these seven is embraced by a majority of Americans. So when we talk about this kind of God, the God of the Bible that we have come to know and love, what we know is that today only 40% of American adults believe in the existence of the God of the Bible as so described. Now that's dropped from 73% in 1992 to 40% today.
George Barna: Wow.
George Barna: That's a massive, very rapid change of a very fundamental precept.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, that kind of fits with the falling away the Bible talks about. And it's coming rapidly. And you know, the idea. Okay. It's the church's job to make the people moral and religious. And I do think that that case, can easily be made and we haven't done a good job with that. But it's like you said, don't get discouraged. Just look at it as an opportunity. We have an opportunity to speak the truth in love. Okay, so, George, cornerstone number two, that was the one that really lit up for me. Okay. It's just so our listeners can hear it. All human beings, including you, are sinful by nature. That sin, nature has moral considerations and consequences. I thought that one, maybe more so than all the others, is the one people would say, I don't believe that.
George Barna: no, actually it's not. What we discovered is that most Americans, at least adults, believe that there is such a thing as sin. Most Americans, a bare majority, believe that most other people have sinned. It's a minority of Americans who believe that they've sinned. And when you strip it all away, you know, you keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. You find that the mental calculus that Americans are doing is I'm better than other people so I don't have to worry about this. This isn't an issue for me. So that's part of what we're up against.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to George Barna and we're talking about his brand new book, how to Think Like Jesus. Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. let me encourage you with all my heart to pick up a copy of this book and know what we're up against and how we, you know, Sunday School 101. But people haven't been to Sunday school, so it's new stuff for them. And we have a great opportunity to influence the culture for Christ. We'll be right back.
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Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for Today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to prolific author and researcher George Barna. Dr. George Barna. He has a brand new book out, how to Think Like Jesus. Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. And as far as these seven cornerstones go, George Weiss said surveys shows that 4% of Christians have this worldview. Adults, 4% of all adults across the board. Okay. As for, for professing Christians, how many professing Christians would hold to all seven?
George Barna: well, 6% of those who call themselves Christian have a biblical worldview.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Wow. Okay, so it's not much different.
George Barna: Not that much different. And if we look at people who regularly attend evangelical churches, it jumps all the way to 11%.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: So, we looked at the first cornerstone, which is, understanding who God is, the biblical view of God and, Creator, sustainer, redeemer, all the things about the Lord, all knowing, all powerful. But now cornerstone number two was the one that really got me because as you delve into it, it's the subject of sin. All human beings, including you, are sinful by nature. But exactly what that means. People know, George, that they're not perfect. So they would probably concede, okay, well, I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner. But as far as the consequences go, the wages of sin is death. I don't think they agree with that. And they don't like you to say if they're living in open sexual immorality, that how dare you call me a sinner? that's what really, hit for me. It's like, okay, that's a big one. Because it seems like once you accept the fact that you're a sinner, you can't fix that. And you are in desperate need before God. You're kind of 90% home, understanding I'm in trouble. And most people don't understand that they're in trouble.
George Barna: No, we live in a society that's not willing to embrace the idea that there's something inherently wrong with us. And so you look at all the advertising, you look at so much in our culture that's designed to make us feel good about ourselves, to make us feel happy. You know, when we interview people, we ask them, you know, what. What's your goal in life? I want to be happy. Wow, that's sad. You know, I mean, God doesn't even say, you know, the goal of your life should be to be happy because I want you to have joy and fullness, you know, and how do you get that? By having that relationship with him. So we've completely misunderstood how these things.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, as we shared in the first segment, George, the parable Jesus told about the building on the rock or building on the sand, the storms are coming. Both of those houses had the exact same. The rains descended, the floods came, the winds blew and burst against that house. One stands and one falls. the biblical worldview is not if you want it, take it. If you don't, it's not like a cafeteria where, you know, you don't want pea salad, so you don't grab that. This is a life and death thing.
George Barna: Well, and it's interesting that you, you mentioned the word cafeteria, because when we look at the worldview that 94, maybe 95% of adults possess today, it's something called syncretism, which is kind of a cafeteria approach to worldview. It's a cut and paste, customized worldview where because we're exposed to multiple worldviews every day, what we tend to do is we listen, we watch, we think, and then we embrace the stuff that feels good to us. And so some of it might be postmodernism, some of it might be secular humanism, some of it might be Eastern mysticism, modern Marxism, Satanism, biblical theism. Doesn't matter if we think it's going to work for us, we tend to embrace it. And that's how we get into trouble. Because rather than trying to embrace truth as the thing that's going to sustain us as we go through all the trials and tribulations, what we're relying upon instead is our feelings. I feel good about that idea. I feel good about this philosophy. I really like that ideology. It may or may not be true, but we're not even thinking about truth. We're thinking, if it feels good, it must be true. M so that's this whole cafeteria mentality that we've got for worldview in America.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah. When I was reading about the syncretism, what came into my mind was, Acts, chapter 17. That's what they accused Paul of being. A seed picker. You're, an idol babbler. You're like a gutter sparrow. You get truth here and there. You kind of patchwork it together. But that's exactly James Tallarico. He says, you know, I learned from all the faiths, and I put it all together. so, George, tell us why Christianity doesn't work that way.
George Barna: because all of those other worldviews don't believe that there's any such thing as absolute moral truth. None of those worldviews have a truth giver at the center of their worldview to point them in the right direction, to correct them when they're wrong. I mean, Christianity is unique. Unique. And it's unlike anything else that you're going to find in any other worldview. So the beauty of it is that we have this body of truth that hasn't changed in more than 2,000 years, and it will never change for the rest of eternity because it's based on the truth giver, who's eternal and who's unchanging and who's proven over the course of time. So it's a very stark contrast between Christianity and whatever other worldview you want to take. Marxism happens to be a popular one today. Socialism is what we typically call it. But, when you start tearing apart socialism, you find out, well, that's not true, or this can't work. That's not going to happen. But people are buying into elements of Marxism even though it's based on a flawed doctrine or flawed philosophy of life.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, you know, I was thinking, too, George, on cornerstone number two, about sin. Well, the Bible speaks specifically about people. First Jon, chapter one, verse eight. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. And then in verse 10, if we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. That really describes our culture today. they don't. They don't deny that they're imperfect, but they don't really like the idea of thinking they're sinners.
George Barna: Well, you see, and I think from a Christian mindset, I think our perspective is sin matters because it defines who we are. Until we embrace Christ as our Savior, then we have a new identity in Christ. And that sin is not going to decapitate me eternally. It's not going to destroy me, because now I have that new identity in Christ. I've been saved from the consequences of that sin, which is what Cornerstone three is all about. But we've got this issue where in America today we tend to be very short sighted. I mean, you know, I do a lot of political research, and what I know is that Americans forget what happened six months or more ago. We don't have a very long memory. And our memory for ourselves, I believe, based on the research, is even shorter. You know, so we're just going day to day. You know, we're just kind of making it up as we go along, trying to feel as good as we can for as long as we can without any kind of moral anchoring that's going to help us recognize, you know what, lying was wrong yesterday, it's wrong today, it's wrong tomorrow. Cheating, stealing, adultery, you know, any of the murder, any of those things. They're always wrong. It's not like, well, I'm going to wait and see how the circumstances line
George Barna: up because maybe it's okay for me to lie here because it's in my best interest. He actually had a majority of Americans now to believe that lying is morally acceptable as long as it advances your personal interests.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah.
George Barna: Wow, that's crazy. So antithetical to what scripture teaches. But then when you ask, gee, how did our culture get in the shape that it's in? Well, it's because we've made those kinds of shifts in our moral reasoning.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, Cornerstone number three of the seven, the consequences of your sin can only be forgiven and eliminated through Jesus Christ. That forgiveness is available only through your personal sincere acknowledgment and confession of your sins and complete reliance on his grace for the forgiveness of those sins. Okay, so I would think that would get tremendous pushback from the world.
George Barna: Well, sure it does. I mean, and let me give you the, I think the best evidence for that kind of pushback. Currently, only 2% of adults in America believe that when they die, they're going to go to hell. Now, when we ask things like, well, what do you think is going to happen to you after you die? Only about one out of three Americans say that. When I die, I know that I'm going to go to heaven or be eternally in God's presence only because I've confessed my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. So that currently is running around 32%. You've got 2% who say, when I die, I'm probably going to go to hell. What about the other 66%? You know, they think, ah, it's not something I have to worry about. You know, God's understanding, he's loving, he's going to forgive me. There's universal forgiveness. I've been better than most other people, so of course he's going to let me. You know, there's all kinds of excuses that we make, but for the most part, Americans refuse to go back to the truth document that God gave to us that explains how this works, to see how the creator of me and the entire system that I live within, how he says it's going to work. We think that we've got a better way, we've got a better explanation. You know, I, recently was witnessing to a person who's a lawyer, you know, and I was explaining all of this to him, and at the end he said, you know, Barna Beckhoff, okay, I'm not worried about it. I'm better than most people. And if God wants to argue this, I'm sure that I can present a good enough case to him for my life that he's going to say, oh, well, excuse me, I didn't realize. Thank you. Yes, please come in. That's the way that so many Americans are thinking that we can outwit God.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yeah, that's really scary. You know, when you read about the Great White Throne judgment, Revelation chapter 20, verses 11 through 15, it's a terrifying experience. And, you know, for any true Christian who knows that we, feel for people, we speak the truth in love, because we don't want anyone to be at the Great White Throne Judgment. Everybody there goes to hell. And, it's a terrifying thing, as the writer of Hebrews says, to fall into the hands of the living God.
George Barna: It is. And, you know, one of the things that I find about Americans is that we don't like things that are black and white. We like that gray part where, you know, we can kind of maneuver and we can persuade and we can manipulate and do all that. But the Bible isn't a gray book. The Bible is black and white. It's like, this is the truth. You may not like it, you may not feel good about it, but this is how it is. So, you know, I grew up in NewSong York and used to have an experience. Hey, you don't have to like it, you just have to deal with it. and that's Kind of what the
George Barna: gospel is, you know?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Well, I mean, the Lord said to Moses, I am who I am. We want God to be different. We want him to be, the God that winks at our sin. He doesn't do that.
George Barna: Yeah.
George Barna: I think the second part of that statement from God wasn't recorded. You know, I am m. Who I am.
George Barna: Yeah.
George Barna: So deal with it, you know.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay. So George, I tell my church family this all the time. I said, one of the most important passages of scripture you can ever memorize is Exodus 34, verses 6 and 7, where God reveals himself, the Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness and truth. Truth, who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin. Yet he will by no means leave the guilty unpunished. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations. That truth or those statements about God that he makes about himself, those are repeated over and over and over again in Scripture. now that didn't make it per se into the book, but it's all over the book.
George Barna: Yeah. and that relates to what I find in our research, which is that so many people justify themselves, not looking for God's justification. They've come up with their own by saying, you know what? Look, bad people get away with stuff. Bad stuff all the time. I'm not a bad person, so I don't have to worry. You know, those people, maybe they have to worry. But, you know, I'm going to live my life the way I need to live it. And God's certainly going to understand you
George Barna: are not good enough to stand in front of the God who created all things. The God who's holy and perfect and righteous. And so, you know, get over yourself and recognize that at some point you're going to stand before him and have given account for your life. You're going to review everything that went on in your life. Do you think you're going to out argue God? Do you think you're going to convince them that you are good enough to make it into the presence of the Holy One. He cannot be in the presence of anything sinful and dark and dirty and garbage. No, don't take that risk. Even if you want to do this as an instance of probability, go with the side that says, I am going to go with the one who seems to always win.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, George, I think you would agree with this. and this is woven into the book but it's not. Maybe not said specifically, but as a society, we've lost the fear of God. We had that years ago. And when you don't have the fear of God, then it's kind of. Katy, bar the door. yeah.
George Barna: And I love, What is it? Ecclesiastes 12. Solomon comes to the end of his writing there, and he says, so what's the end of all this? Fear God and keep his commands.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
: Period.
George Barna: End of story.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes.
George Barna: Yeah. Good advice.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, I wrote that in one of the chapters. I wrote Ecclesiastes 12, 13, 14. Because this applies to every person. For the Lord will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. And, you know, the thing for us, George, as Christians, it's not like we're saying we're better than anybody. We're not. We're. We're the ones that. We recognize that we're. Isaiah. Woe is me, for I'm undone. I'm a man of unclean lips. And if not for the blood of Jesus, we stand condemned.
George Barna: Yeah. We'd have nothing going for us. So thank you, Lord.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Yes. Well, you're listening to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve talking to George Varna about his new book, how to Think Like Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. You're listening to Real Truth for today on American Family Radio. We'll be right back.
: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor jeffromhisheart.org now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schreid.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Welcome back to Real Truth for today. Pastor Jeff Schrieve here talking to George Barna, the prolific author and researcher. And the book is called how to think like seven cornerstones to build a biblical worldview. And, Dr. Barna and I are having a great time just talking through the cornerstones. And so we went through the first three, and now we're on cornerstone number four. Absolute moral truth exists. These truths are. Are defined by God described in the Bible and are unchanging across time and cultures. well, that's a tough one in our culture today to think about absolute moral truth.
George Barna: Well, it sure is. And we know that about two thirds of all Americans say there is not and cannot be any such thing as absolute moral truth, because all truth depends on the individual and his or her circumstances. In other words, how they feel about what's going on around them and. And what they make of it, what they choose to do. And so we've got, you know, the common expressions, you know, your truth and my truth. It's like, yeah, get over that, too. Because there is no such thing. There's only God's truth and the truth of whether or not you're going to live in accordance with it or whether you're going to reject it and pay the price. So it's imperative that we know what God's truth is. And, part of the reason why that matters so much is because with all of these things, Pastor, it's not just about having the right thinking. You know, you've got to be willing to convert your theology into a lifestyle. And that's what this is all about, really, is. Okay. These seven cornerstones are not just beliefs. They're beliefs and behaviors that enable you to be more Christlike. The objective here is to become a disciple. And so what does that mean? It means you're an imitator of Christ. How do you imitate Christ? By living like him. Well, what would cause you to live like him? One of the things I teach all my students here is you do what you believe. The research convincingly for 50 years has shown me people do what they really believe. Now, sometimes they'll say they believe something, but they really don't. They know it's what you want to hear, and they know it's what's going to make them popular and it'll help them to fit in, whatever. But what do they really believe? If you want to know, you watch their behavior. So if you want to live like Jesus, you've got to first think like Jesus so that then you can live like him. you'll convert those beliefs into that Jesus like life. That's what we're trying to get across here. And that's why truth is so critical. Because if you want to be Christlike,
George Barna: you've got to embrace the same truth principles that he did. You've got to follow through on the same truth principles that he did. You've got to share the same truth principles that you did.
George Barna: It's really kind of the centerpiece of a lot of what we're talking about.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: There was a famous quote, I think it was by Peter Lord, if you remember, way back when, Peter Lord, and he said, I still remember my pastor quoting this. what we really believe, we practice. All the rest is just religious talk. And that's exactly what you're saying. So that's got to be a conviction that we really believe this. And it's going to affect the way. I can't just be a hearer of The Word. I have to be a doer of the Word. And if I'm a hearer only, I'm not really somebody that believes it.
George Barna: Yeah, it's true. And part of the challenge is that we've got so many people inside our churches who are rejecting all of these cornerstones. And so we've got a situation here where. Well, wait a minute. If you don't believe there is absolute moral truth, why are you bothering to come to the church?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Right?
George Barna: What is it you think you're going to get here? A bunch of friends, a free meal, a nice program, fun teaching that you can take notes at? I mean, that's not the point. The point here is we're coming together, you know, not only for iron to sharpen iron, but for God to sharpen us, for him to put on display his truths for us. And so you've got to realize that, no, there are things that don't change based on the circumstances or your feelings. These are true whether you want to admit they're true or not. And they're not going to change over time because they're true.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Interestingly, George, I had somebody that was, asking me about my support for Israel, and they said, has your support for Israel changed over the months of what was going on in Gaza and that kind of thing? I said, my support for Israel is based on Genesis, chapter 12. I, don't think that's changed. So it would never change. regardless of what Israel does, I'm going to support them. I might not support individual things that they do that. I said, well, they shouldn't do that. But I support Israel because it's rooted in scripture, it's not rooted in culture.
George Barna: Yeah, yeah, great point. And you know, we tend to take a political mindset into anything. Do I like the administration? Do I like, you know, the battle plan that they have? Ah, that's not really the relevant point. It's like these are God's chosen people and we are called to support them, to embrace them, to pray for them, you know, to bless them and be blessed by them, you know, but you wouldn't know that unless you read the Scriptures, okay?
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Cornerstone number five. The entire Bible is true, reliable and relevant, making it the best moral guide for every person in all situations. So I recently saw this was on YouTube, ah, Ken Ham sat down with some other, guys, and they were talking about Genesis and they were talking about the age of the earth. And you know, that can be a contentious subject even among believers. And what I like about Ken Ham so much is he just holds to his guns and he says, the Bible doesn't teach evolution. The Bible teach. It tells us, and it gives us dates, it gives us ages of things. And, you know, you're. You're adding in what man has said to come up with this idea. But if you just go by the Bible and if you were born on a desert island and all you had was the Bible, you would never believe in evolution.
George Barna: Yeah.
George Barna: And man, when you ask, you know, is. Is some of this discouraging. I think one of the discouraging things for me is the fact that we've actually lost ground with the percentage of people who believe that God's word is, is. Is real, it's relevant, it's reliable, it's trustworthy, over time, you know, that's certainly one of the things that we ought to be impressing upon the lives of our children. Knowing that a person's worldview is developed by the age of 13. Well, then, you know, between 15, 18 months of age and the age of 13, when that worldview develops, we've got to make sure that they understand how critical the Bible is in the development of their worldview. That if they want to know truth, that's where you find truth. Because the truth giver gave us that book to live by. He wants us to thrive. He wants us to succeed. He knew that we couldn't do it on our own, we wouldn't figure it out on our own. You can see how crazy our culture has become as we try to figure out things on our own. And so, yes, that's why we need the Bible to kind of whip us back into shape, get us back on the right pathway to, you know, God's view of righteousness, not our view of it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, George, let me ask you a question that, ah, I don't mean to get you into hot water at all, but, I'm just curious. So I. I did a whole program about, Ed Young Jr. Was on the. He's been on social media talking about, you know, the job of a preacher is to entertain, because that means you hold somebody's attention. And, you know, a lot of these guys, a lot of pastors are pushing back, and it's like, our job's not to entertain people. And, you know, he was trying to justify these expensive props. He was driving this, I don't know how much, $500,000 rolls Royce onto the stage and talking about, you know, I'm using this and it's not gimmicky. It's godly. That's. Jesus used props and, you know, metaphors and parables and all this stuff. But, you know, what really bothered people was this idea that, you know, the job of a pastor is to be an entertainer and to entertain the people because you want to hold their attention. And that seems to me, George, that we've gotten into serious trouble when the pastor becomes a celebrity or an entertainer. He's dispenser of truth. He's to be a faithful shepherd that leads the sheep, feeds the sheep, and cares for the sheep.
George Barna: Yeah, I mean, the way I always describe it, when people say, well, what do you think a pastor is? I say, well, very simply, a disciple maker. And so what does a disciple maker do? Their primary thing is to point people to Jesus, show them the truth. How do you show that to them? You show it through them, through your lifestyle. you show it to them through how you're growing in your relationship with Jesus. Clearly inferring there that you need a relationship with Jesus, too. We're not trying to bring you into a religion. Religion has no part in my life, relationship with God. That. That's what my life is all about. That's what the life of every believer is all about, that relationship. And so I'm not worried about denominationalism. I'm not worried about the size of churches. I'm not worried about entertainment, you know, whatever. But give me God's word through the way that you live it, the way that you teach it, the way that we can discuss it, and the way that you hold me accountable to it. That's what I want a disciple maker to be doing in my life as a disciple of Christ. It's the only way I'm going to become more Christ.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Like, okay, George, so 4% of Americans have, all seven of these. 6% of professing Christians have all seven of these. what about pastors?
George Barna: Yeah, this shocked a lot of people when we did the research. We find that currently among all types of pastors, senior pastors, teaching pastors, children's associate, you know, whatever, all pastors, it's, 37% have a biblical worldview. Among senior pastors, it's 41%. Among children's pastors, who I would contend are the most important pastors of all because they've got the key population that, that we're trying to minister to, it's only 12%. One out of every eight has a biblical worldview. And, so, you know, I've gotten in trouble for telling parents you know, you may be better off not taking your child to a church, but let me suggest this. Instead of not going to a church, do a lot of homework. Find a church that's got a great children's pastor who knows Jesus, loves Jesus, is discipling your children into Jesus. That's the church you want to go to, not the place where you feel most comfortable, where your neighbors go. Nicest building, all that. That's superfluous. What you need to do is find pastors who know, love, and serve God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul. And it's obvious, through their lifestyle, through their teaching, and through the relationships that you build with them.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Amen to that. Okay, so cornerstone six. The universal purpose of human life is to glorify God by knowing, loving, and serving him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. That's kind of what you just said. And then number seven, just so we don't miss this one. Success on earth is best indicated by consistent obedience to God, in thoughts, words and actions. Okay, so, George, out of all the seven, what are the top two or three that people really struggle to say? Okay, I agree with that.
George Barna: That success is consistent obedience to God. That's number one on the losers parade. people do not believe that. No, that can't be right. Am I nice? Am I kind? Am I good? You know, that's how you determine whether or not you're successful or, you know, have I worked hard and been able to achieve meaningful and significant things with my life? That would argue. So, yeah, we really wrestle with that one. We wrestle with the idea of, you know, salvation through, through the grace of Christ. we, we tend to believe now I'm going to earn my salvation. You've got entire denominations that are teaching, be a good enough person so you can earn your way into heaven. so those two are really problematic. Maybe the other one also is this idea of, that there is absolute moral truth, that it doesn't change, that it's knowable, and that is going to affect your life. So you better figure out where that absolute moral truth is coming from. And the answer is the Bible.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: George, have you met many in politics that would have a biblical worldview? All seven of these cornerstones, I've met
George Barna: some, I've had the privilege of working with some, and that's why I worked with them. But, you know, I'm not God. I can't judge everybody. But if I were to estimate how many of them had a biblical worldview, I would say it's not common. Because it's not popular. You know, it's not going to be something that people want to vote for. You know, somebody who's going to say, look, I'm going to stand up for these principles and that might make your life tougher for a little while until you understand them. When we're able to put the whole
George Barna: framework together, that's how it is.
George Barna: You got to live with it.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: Okay, so if a pastor said, I'm going to pick up this book, how to Think Like Jesus, and I'm going to preach through seven sermons on these seven cornerstones in the church, where do you think he's going to get the most pushback?
George Barna: I don't think you'll get any pushback. the problem is that when we preach, we tend not to, number one, land on, implementation applications of these things and then secondly, hold people accountable for those. Now if we were to do that, that would change the game. And so when you talk about these seven things, just like we said in the beginning, this is Sunday School 101, people are going to step back and say, ah, I know these, you know, I'm comfortable with these. Well, you shouldn't be, you know, because apparently you're not living them out. That's what the research is showing.
Pastor Jeff Schreve: George, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's always a pleasure, to have you on and you're just a wealth of information and I just appreciate your spirit. You're just a great guy. And so thanks for writing this book, how to Think Like Jesus. Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. Hey, check it out. Go online and pick up a copy of this book and hey, get it for your pastor and say, hey, Pastor, what if you preached a sermon series based on these seven cornerstones? It could be, life changing, church changing. And as more and more people do it, it could be nation changing. So go out today, shine for Christ, share what great things the Lord has done for you. And guess what? God will use you, you as his witness. God bless you.
Pastor Jeff Schreve welcomes George Barna, researcher, author, and co-founder of the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University, to discuss his book How to Think Like Jesus: Seven Cornerstones to Build a Biblical Worldview. Drawing on decades of research, Barna explains why so few Americans hold a biblical worldview and outlines seven foundational beliefs that shape how Christians think and live. They explore the importance of recognizing God as Creator, understanding the reality and consequences of sin, finding forgiveness through Jesus Christ, embracing absolute moral truth, and trusting the Bible as the ultimate guide for life. The conversation challenges pastors, parents, and believers to move beyond simply knowing biblical truths and put their faith into practice, building their lives on the firm foundation of God's Word.
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