Alex McFarland: Well, good morning Everybody. Alex McFarland here. What an honor to be sitting in for Jeff Schrieve on Real Truth for today. We have a fantastic show, really a great show. Later on we're going to welcome just, someone who's been a great mentor in my life. His name is Dr. Erwin Lutzer. But I want to begin with, a little. First of all, I want to thank Jeff Sri for entrusting, me with the program while he is out for a day or two, just a very temporary, he's traveling a little bit. if you recognize my voice, it's probably because of a show called Exploring the Word. Bert Harper and myself, we've had the great privilege of doing Exploring the Word now in its 16th year on the American Family Radio Network. And by the way, Exploring the Word is heard Monday through Friday, 3pm Central Time. And we go through the Bible on Exploring the Word. Right now we're in Matthew 26. And, in 16 years, I believe Bert Harper and I have had the privilege of teaching through God's word in Its entirety, like at least three times, all of the Bible. And so we, we believe in the power of God's word, and we, believe that one of the things that's so important. Romans 12 talks about renewing our mind by the word of God. And the word renewing there really means to get it sorted out. You know, if you've ever. Let's say you. You, say Saturday, I'm going to clean up the garage. It's just, all in disarray. And, might take me all day, but I got to get it, cleaned up and sorted out. And at the end of that, you feel so good because everything's in its place. And, that's how it is with our beliefs. You know, imagine that you imagine a pyramid, and at the top of the pyramid are, behaviors. That's what you can see. But underneath that are beliefs, and then underneath that are values. Now, behavior is what we do, but what we do is driven by what we believe and how we think. but do you know, even 3,500 years before psychology really existed, Proverbs 23:7 says, as one thinks in their heart, so are they. As a man thinketh in his heart. There was a famous book years ago about this by a Christian writer named Jon Allen. As a man thinketh. But here's the thing. and I was sharing this at a parenting seminar. You know, we did a book, the, 21 toughest questions your kids will ask about God. And, you know, I'm talking about worldview and living for Christ and growing in a biblical worldview. And this mom came up during the break, and she said, look, I'm just trying to get my son to clean up his room. I said, okay, I hear you. Baby steps. But there are behaviors, things we do, but those are driven by beliefs, and beliefs are very much shaped by values. Now, hang with me here. beliefs are what we think is true. Values are what we think is important, right? So we've got values, we've got beliefs, and those manifest themselves in terms of behaviors, right? How do you influence those things? well, you could tell somebody to go to Sunday school and get in a small group, and that's a good thing. You could say, listen to American Family Radio. There's good Christian teaching. And we think that would be a good thing. But do you know to inform values, to influence beliefs and to shape behaviors? Psychologists, sociologists, and I would say disciplers would say, the number one way to influence these things is through relationships. Let's say the bottom of the pyramid. The foundation on which values, beliefs, behaviors rest are relationships. And I think Jesus modeled that. I mean, you think about it. Three years, his ministry, most important work ever to, assemble the disciples, carry out the ministry of Christ, Incarnation, die, rise again, give the great commission, establish the church, ascend to heaven and inaugurate the church age most important work ever because the souls of the human race hang in the balance. And Christ did all that in three years, but he really did it through relationships. And he invested himself in those apostles and they, you know, a dozen people turn the world upside down. Okay, so relationship is spelled T I m e time. I mean really, I truly believe discipleship is life on life transference. It really is. That's why it's important as a parent to spend time with your children really, and not just, watching a video on TV or something. I'm in a lot of restaurants and I'll see a family having a meal and everybody's on a mobile device. And so I want to encourage moms and dads to really set boundaries on technology use. And please, I know this is, I'm getting invasive here, but don't let your child just ubiquitously be wed to a, ah, smartphone or mobile device or a tablet. I mean kids, I'm m talking Christian kids are like sleeping in the bed with their cell phone and there's this separation anxiety that they don't want to be without their cell phone and listen. We've got to unplug not only to hear that still small voice and get in God's word, the Bible, but our brain needs downtime. We really do. And your youth are in cognitive development as they go through the teen years. And certainly, young men, even really many, of you may know this, but there is a time in late childhood adolescence that the female brain is actually developing faster than the male brain. And oftentimes little girls proficient readers before guys, now the guys catch up. But all through the childhood, late childhood, pre adolescence, the teenage years, late adolescence, young adulthood, our brains are developing. And the way that the neurons get wired up to one degree or another, it will follow us our whole life. And so it's imperative that, that we engage as parents and as Christian leaders. Maybe you're helping, with the youth or you're a Sunday school teacher or you're just that good neighbor, but it's life on life transference. And Bill Bright, the founder of Campus Crusade, he was actually my evangelism professor in seminary. I was so blessed. Bill Bright wrote a fantastic book called Witnessing Without Fear. And I would encourage you. That's one of those things that you need to own. You know, there's so many books that come in and out of our lives. There are a few that we just are keepers. by the way, on the subject of evangelism, I, want to recommend a couple of books. And by the way, my producer here, Jameson Hurst, you just text me or whisper in my ear if we've got, our very, very special guest. Okay, Jameson, but thanks. Listen to this. I want to recommend a couple of books on evangelism. One I mentioned Witnessing Without Fear by Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade, at Liberty University. In seminary, we had a personal evangelism class, and I was exceedingly blessed. Our teacher was Bill Bright. And Bill Bright had been a real introvert. And he said he was kind of shy, introverted, but he got saved. And he and his wife Vonnet, they started Campus Crusade. Of course, very famously, Josh McDowell was a part of Campus Crusade. Still is, but Josh is retired now. But, at one time, oh, golly, half a million full time missionaries and volunteers. Campus Crusade for Christ was a global movement. And of course, they famously did the Jesus film, which is still touching hundreds of languages around the world. Bill Bright was a candy maker. Interestingly, you know, had a, had a candy business, but he became passionate that everybody needed Jesus. But he was, he was kind of quiet and introverted. But in his book Witnessing Without Fear, which again is a classic, he said, success in witnessing is sharing the gospel, in the power and leading of Jesus Christ and just leaving the results up to God. And he realized that you and I, we don't have to grow the church now. We are to be Christ ambassadors. You know, Second Corinthians, Chapter 5, Second Corinthians 5:20, says, we are ambassadors for Christ. We are to be a witness and a representative. But it's God that does the saving. God builds the church. That's Matthew 16:18. Jesus said, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Isn't that good? Jesus builds the church. It's not on our shoulders to do it. We don't have to do that. But Bill Bright was my evangelism professor and it was wonderful. And he wrote a little booklet called, you know, not Steps to Peace with God. That was Billy Graham, the Four Spiritual Laws. Bill Bright wrote the Four Spiritual Laws. Anyway, his son, Brad Bright is a friend. And Brad told me one time, he said that Class at Liberty, was probably the last college class that Bill Bright taught. And I was just so blessed to take evangelism under Bill Bright. I recommend his book Witnessing Without Fear, another book that I really want to recommend. It's a classic and this was very influential in the life of Billy Graham. From what I understand. the Master Plan of Evangelism by Robert E. Coleman. C O L E M A N Master Plan of Evangelism. It is just brilliant. And let me just say to all the churches and pastors listening, in the Robert Coleman book, which, it's a small book, it's not a huge book. I mean, you could read it in an hour or less. But he talks. It's a brilliant strategy based on Jesus about investing yourself in a small group of people who invest themselves. In groups of people who invest themselves. And it's really kind of multiplication and delegation outwardly. And, it has worked. I think that book has probably been in print for five or six decades. I saw a new copy the other day. It's got kind of a modernized cover, but the content is still the same. It's just phenomenal. The Master Plan of Evangelism by Robert Coleman. It's just a very inexpensive little book. But if your church were to implement it, I can promise you it will be incredibly, incredibly fruitful. all of that. To say this. I'm going to quote Josh McDowell. Josh McDowell said, Disciples are not mass produced. They're handmade. One life at a time. And see, that's what we're called to do. There are behaviors. That's what we see. But beneath it, inside every human, there are beliefs and values. Beliefs are what we think is true. Values are what we think is important. And the best way to influence, inform, shape, correct those things is through relationship. I mean, really m. God uses people. And in the lives of people. And if you're a born again believer, you are the beneficiary of people who have invested in you. And as a born again believer, we have the great privilege and oh my goodness, what a privilege it is to invest in others. You know, I think about those God moments that I, had an encounter or a relationship with people. Many, of them are in heaven now. But I think about the people that shaped my life. And I'm, who I am because of Jesus, but because of those who invested in me as well. And God has given you the privilege of investing in others. Well, hey, Alex McFarland here. Our real truth for today. Stay tuned. We've got A brief break. We're going to come back more on the American Family Radio Network. A very special guest. Stay tuned.
: Hi, I'm Pastor Jeff Schrieve with Real Truth for Today. Hey, did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. That's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast, Real Truth for Today. So please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.com.
Jeff Chamblee: This is Real Truth for Today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Alex McFarland: Alex McFarland here. Very honored to be sitting in for Jeff Schrieve on Real Truth for today. In that first segment, we were talking about influencing beliefs, behaviors and values. by the way, let me give a little, shout out to the COVID the Billy Graham Conference center in western North Carolina. I don't know if you've ever been to the COVID but we just think it's one of the greatest places in the world. I mean, beautiful, beautiful facilities, the beautiful backdrop of the mountains and everything. Incredible food, oh my goodness, the food is unreal. but you truly feel the presence of God. Billy Graham, the great evangelist, I mean, one of my heroes of all heroes. But Billy and Ruth Graham, they prayer walked over those hillsides and you really do, feel the spirit of God there. Well, next summer in July, I'll be there teaching. It's been my great joy for more than 20 summers to go to the Cove And I believe a visit to the COVID is something you'll just never forget, really. Now, next summer I'm going to be there teaching the book of Romans and the way they do. There are weekend like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then there are Monday through Friday that are longer. Now the Monday through Friday, the ibt, that's called intensive Bible training. So, what a privilege. I was there, this, this past summer I was there with Gary Habermas teaching on the Resurrection. And then the summer before that I was at the Cove with j, Warner Wallace. Next summer I'll be at the COVID the Billy Graham center, teaching the book of Romans. Will Graham asked me to do Romans, which I love, one of my absolute favorite books. And then, that's the three day Friday, Saturday, Sunday, then the ibt, the five day. I'll be doing a deep dive on biblical worldview. And with me will be Loren Green of Fox News, just a devout Christian and a best selling Author also Dillon Burroughs. Dillon was a writer for many years for a Dr. Jon Ankerberg. And Dillon is a Dallas seminary grad. And so for the ibt, the five day intensive Bible training, we'll be doing a thorough, look at what is a biblical worldview. And the website is thecove.org, t h e c o v e thecove.org Angie and I would love to see you there next summer. And if you come to the Billy Graham center and we together will get an into God's word, you won't be disappointed. You won't be disappointed. Well, right now, what a joy. you know, I mentioned in the first segment that we are the, summation of those we have followed after those that have invested in us and shaped our lives and the role models that we have looked up to. And really, in my life, there have been a couple of people that absolutely shaped who I am, one of whom, of course, is Josh McDowell. But the other who is, in so many ways, is, the Christian minister that I would aspire to be. His name is Dr. Erwin Lutzer, and for many years, the pastor of Moody Church in Chicago, one of the world's great churches. Prolific author, pastor, apologist, and biblical worldview voice. And, he's been so gracious to make himself accessible over the years, and he's with us now. Dr. Lutzer, welcome to the American Family Radio Network.
Dave Williams: Alec, I'm so glad to be with you. we were just at the Billy Graham Cove. I taught both a pastor's seminar and the regular seminar, and so I know that, it's a tremendously good experience, and I'm so glad that you're encouraging your people to join the COVID Yes. Alex, how are you doing? I'm doing quite well. I'm very, very busy these days, but God is giving strength. And just so that your audience knows, I turned 85 the other day, so I keep going. And, just great to be with you.
Alex McFarland: Well, happy belated birthday. And I am thrilled that, the Lord has you busy in the service of the gospel, Dr. Lutzer.
Dave Williams: Well, yes, and I continue to get opportunities. I'm wondering if you have come across my new book entitled Marx and Moody.
Alex McFarland: no, I have not. I was thinking about, the book, the Church in Babylon. but I want to hear about that now. Marx and Moody. My goodness. You know, D.L. moody is one of my absolute heroes from church history. so I want to hear about this book, Marx and Moody. Tell us about it.
Dave Williams: About a year and a half or two ago, I was going to give a lecture at the grave of Karl Marx in London. I knew he was buried there. I wanted people to understand Marxism. As I was preparing the lecture, it dawned on me that he was a, contemporary of D.L. moody for 46 years. Furthermore, when Moody was preaching to large crowds of 20,000 people or more every night in London in the 1800s, during that time, Frederick Engels, who helped write the manifesto, attended a Moody meeting. And he wrote about it. And, of course, I quoted in the book. And then, as Engels was about to die, he was reminiscing, why is it that England didn't become communist after all? The Communist Manifesto had been published out there in England, in London for the first time in 1848. And he concluded it was because of the revivalism of people like Moody and Sankey, who was his choir leader and the dangerous aid of the Salvation Army. What he was saying is the roots were too Christian. Now, in the. In the manifesto, the very last sentence before the very last one, it says this. We do not hide our aims. We openly admit that in order to achieve our aims, we need a forcible overthrow of all existing conditions. So, anyway, that's exactly what happened, of course, in communist countries and still is happening. Now, what the book does is to, quickly give a survey of Marx's, life, his fascination with demonism, etc. And then the manifesto, I discuss what he got wrong. Then we also go to democratic socialism, one of the longest chapters in the book. And then the second part of the book, Moody. The life of Moody, is written by a professor who used to teach at, Moody Bible Institute, who studied Moody for many years. And for those listening who don't know who Moody is, Moody was the Billy Graham of the 1800s. So the point is, why is it Marx and Moody, two contemporaries, two gospels, two tombstones, and one choice? Why two tombstones? Well, at the end of the book, I take people to the tombstones of these two men and discuss their legacies and talk about our legacies as well. So that's a summary, and I am so glad I can mention this. I thought for sure by now, you would have had a copy, that we'd have sent you one. It's our fault, but we'll make sure to get one to you very quickly.
Alex McFarland: Oh, thank you. You know, I can't wait to read this book. And by the way, in all seriousness, Dr. Lutzer, I really don't know another apologist, theologian that has, really, as well as you, meshed, you know, where history was. I know you wrote about Hitler and the broken cross and, and then you've written so many things about the way that, history has these defining moments, and you've looked at past history and the contemporary world through the lens of biblical worldview. And, God has gifted you in that regard. And I know Marx and Moody, that is going to be a must read because, you know, Dr. Lutzer, we had 1200 teenagers in our eight summer camps this past summer. And, by God's grace, over 430 that came to faith in Christ. But, young people are very enamored with socialism right now, and I think they've just been wrongly taught in public education that, you know, socialism is some panacea to put food on everybody's table. So I'm thrilled that you've written this book and this, expose. You know, I knew Moody and Marx would have been contemporaries. Do you know, Dr. Lutzer, is there any, degree to which, Karl Marx would have been aware of DL Moody's preaching and the gospel message?
Dave Williams: Oh, he couldn't have helped it, even if he would have wanted to not be aware. Think of this. Moody is front page news in the London newspapers. Stenographers take down his sermons. They print them in the newspaper the next morning. And so he is famous, and Marx is working in the British Library and so forth, writing Das Kapital. By the way, my book does not deal with those books. it deals primarily with the Communist Manifesto and related documents. And you know, there are many people listening who don't know too much about the manifesto except things that they've heard. In my book, I frequently quoted, so that we get it accurate, the abolition of the family, the destruction of all morality and laws and so forth. But anyway, in answer to your question, absolutely would have. And after all, Engels, who helped write the manifesto, attended a Moody meeting and wrote a letter about it. Quite an extended letter, which of course I quote in the book. So obviously he would have known.
Alex McFarland: you know, you talk about D.L. moody, and, I love church history, and I've tried, my best to make people aware of great leaders that, should not be forgotten. You know, isn't it true, Dr. Lutzer? it's hard to overstate the impact of Dwight Leman moody in the 1800s. I mean, he truly was in a horse and buggy era. He was a global figure, wasn't he?
Dave Williams: He really was. And by the way, Moody Certainly knew about communism, if I might quote him. When there was labor unrest here in Chicago, Moody said, unless we evangelize, the leaven of communism is going to come here and bring about, a destruction. Actually, he talked about its devastation unless we evangelize. And the thing that people will discover about Moody in this book is this. He had a tremendous social conscience. In other words, he didn't. Wasn't merely interested in souls because he had a very humble, poor background. And, his mother sometimes had to farm some of the kids out during the winter. She loved them dearly, but couldn't put food on their table over there in Massachusetts at the time. And so Moody, I mean, he established here in Chicago centers for the poor to come and get food. At one time, he was looking after 800 families that, in addition to the Sunday school that had a thousand people, where none other than Abraham Lincoln stopped and spoke on his way to Washington to get inaugurated, because Moody had become so famous. And then the Moody Church, because nobody wanted these kids in 1864 that I had the privilege of, pastoring, even though it's in a different location. And so Moody, his impact is huge. And then Moody Bible Institute, he began a school for girls over in Northfield, Massachusetts. Who in the world thought of that? And there were about eight or ten different nations represented. And Moody delighted in the fact that there was such variety. He was so far ahead of his times. People don't understand at all. And that's why there's so much else I could say. But that's why this book, I think, is so important, not only to understand Marx, but to get a proper grasp of Moody.
Alex McFarland: Yes, exactly. And, you know, I think it's very inspiring. And like I've said, like in a horse and buggy era. I mean, Moody, from the time of his conversion to the time of his homegoing. I mean, he really was used by God to touch the world, wasn't he?
Dave Williams: He was. And the reason is because there's a man in Europe who said this to him. In England, his name doesn't come immediately to me, but, he said the world has yet to see what God can do in and through a man who is totally yielded to him.
Alex McFarland: Yes.
Dave Williams: And Moody said that those words were so burned on his mind that when he crossed, on a ship back to America, he could read them on the shipboards. I mean, they were. And he said, by the grace of God, he'd be that man. And I believe he was indeed.
Alex McFarland: Indeed, the Northville, Massachusetts, Campus. Do you know what they do there these days? Is that, ah, facility still in use?
Dave Williams: The facility recently is. A few years ago is in use. there's a Catholic organization that teaches the, I forget the name of it. It stresses the original text of the Bible and other books, and then also much of it is under the jurisdiction of those of us who established the Moody Center. I was on the board when all of this transition happened about six or eight years ago. It has a long checkered history and so forth, but, it has potential to be a place where people can still go and study. It's not that now for us, but nonetheless, we, we. I say we, not me. But the organization owns his birthplace, the place that he died, and most importantly, his grave. You must understand that Moody and his wife are buried there on a hill where he used to preach and students used to gather around him.
Alex McFarland: Dr. Lutzer, forgive me. We've got a break. We got to pull away. Stay tuned, folks. More with Erwin Lutzer, author of the book on Marx and Moody and so much more. Stay tuned. We're back after this brief break on the American Family Radio Network.
Jeff Chamblee: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor [email protected] now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
: Welcome back.
Alex McFarland: Good morning, everybody. Alex McFarland sitting in for Jeff Schrieve. And, I'll be live this afternoon, good Lord willing, on exploring the word heard throughout the American Family radio network. 3:00pm Central, 4:00pm Eastern, and the time zone of your choice. And, what a joy, to sit in for Jeff Schrieve. And, you know, when I do these guest hosting segments, I call, up a lot of great friends and, oh, my goodness, Angie would concur. Erwin and Rebecca Lutzer are just heroes to us. I've known Dr. Lutzer for more than 20 years. When I was, at Focus on the Family under James Dobson, one of the very first things I was out there, this was back in, in 2004, and Dr. Dobson said to me, can you get Erwin Lutzer to come here? And we did events out there at Focus on the Family. And of course, Dr. Lutzer graciously came just whenever I would ask and was on the radio with Dr. Dobson. And we've done many conferences together over the years, and he's a prolific author and just a stellar representative of the gospel and the biblical worldview. And, Dr. Lutzer, I know I speak for millions of people, but I Just want to say for you and Rebecca, thank you for being the people that you are and for standing so faithfully for Christ. And, you've shaped many lives, my own included, and I commend you.
Dave Williams: Well, thank you so much. And I say the same to you and Angie and, the fact that your impact continues. And I'm a lot older than you are, so it's wonderful to see the second generation coming up. And of course, all of us are getting older, aren't we? But nonetheless, we're wanting to stand strong until the very end.
Alex McFarland: Indeed, indeed. we're talking about your new book, which, folks, I urge you, seriously, every Erwin Lutzer book you need to own and have in your library. And I really mean that. hundreds of books pass through our lives. Everything Dr. Lutzer writes is a keeper. I mean, it really is. And he wrote this book. And there's another one that I want to talk about called the Eclipse of God. But right now, Marx and Moody and Dr. Lutzer, the DSA, the Democrat Socialists of America. You know, I'm very surprised at the ascendancy, very concerned about it. in light of your research on Marx and Moody, what's your take on this Democrat, the dsa? I'm very surprised. Not only that it's come about, but the visibility. what do you feel about this, Dr. Lutzer?
Dave Williams: Well, first of all, as an overarching statement, I will say this, that it's not a surprise that it becomes very, very popular. Why people judge it by its promises, not its results. So isn't it wonderful? I begin my chapter, by the way, saying the dream is free. The bill comes later. The simple fact is that you cannot have a socialistic country that is wealthy. You cannot build wealth on it. And I explained several different reasons for this, by the way. Alec, have you ever noticed this, that the Democratic socialists, they always talk about dividing up the money. They never talk about making money. because strictly speaking, you can't, you know, you. You take a pie and you say, oh, we're going to divvy it up. Well, the fact is that you may divvy it up, but when the plate is empty, the plate is empty. How are you going to fill it? So all of that, one of the ways, if parents are listening, and I'm sure hundreds, and if not thousands are, and you want to help explain to your child democratic socialism, this is one way to do it. Not the only way. I suggest other ways as well. But let's suppose a professor in a classroom Says, you know, it's not fair that some of you get better grades than others. Some of you are more intelligent, some of you have more time. Some of the kids are under pressure. At the end of the semester, what I'm going to do is I'm going to average all of the grades, each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Those of you with lower grades, you need the help of someone else. And so we're going to do this collectively. This is the collective, and we're going to make sure that everyone gets a piece of the, educational pie in this way. Now, does anybody think that that's going to motivate students to study hard? I don't think so.
Alex McFarland: Not likely.
Dave Williams: Not likely. The simple fact is that, Karl Marx, by the way, says that when socialism is implemented, you know, I'll be able to do one thing today, another tomorrow, rear cattle in the afternoon, sit and, discuss philosophy in the evening. Each will do whatever he wants, and the needs of others are going to be met. No wonder it is so popular. But the simple fact is it runs out of money. As Margaret Thatcher so correctly said, pretty soon you run out of other people's money, and it doesn't meet people's needs. People say, you know, oh, capitalism is based on greed. Socialism is based on need. I wonder if the person who said that has ever been to a, socialistic country. It doesn't meet people's needs. The stores are empty. What you have to do is to say, oh, this store has rice today. And pretty soon there's a lineup of people to get rice. Why? Let's think through a few things. If you peg the price of, rent, for example, and, if a mayor of a city or a state, you know, governor says, we're going to peg the price of rent, you can't raise rent. Is anybody going to invest in rental property? Of course not.
Alex McFarland: Of course not.
Dave Williams: As a result, it stagnates everything because the thing that generates wealth is competition. The other thing that people don't realize about, socialism is this. Socialism believes that the rich, they became rich because they stole it from the poor. And as a result of that philosophy, America has to be criticized severely because it's wealthy. And because it's wealthy, it means it stole the money and made other nations poor. Now, this is not correct, but nonetheless, that's out there, and people have to understand that that's what they're talking about.
Alex McFarland: Sure.
Dave Williams: And by the way, in the book, I have an entire chapter of Course. And we're talking about the book Marx and Moody. I have an entire chapter on how Marxism came to America. And, Alex, I know you know the name Antonio Gramsci. He's the guy who wrote the paper on how it had to come into America incrementally. Now, I quote him as saying that churches can be used to bring in Marxism. And you know how they can take the words of Jesus, who said that the rich find it difficult to enter into the kingdom of heaven and so forth. And where Jesus is critical of wealth and they can apply it and m use Jesus to promote the idea that wealth is evil. And therefore what we have to do is to take other people's wealth from them because they're not going to give it up voluntarily and give it to other people, which is, of course, socialism. And here's where discernment is so important. Okay? The reason that Jesus said, ah, that is that wealth can very easily take the place of God. And he warned against that. Jesus did. Jesus didn't say that. He didn't say to the rich man, oh, you stole this money from others. But nonetheless, that's the way it's interpreted in the socialistic thing. By the way, you caught me at a time, as you well know, I have so much to say in the manifesto, people may wonder, is there a difference between communism and socialism? In the manifesto, they are used interchangeably, but in one important place, and at least one in the Communist Manifesto, Marx says this. The socialists bring about the revolution. And by the way, Marx says we have to make the revolution as violent as possible. Yeah, yeah. I quote him as saying that now here's the thing. You have all of these people who are working toward the destruction and the stealing of property, because that's what it takes in order for the state to own it. So he says, socialists bring forth the revolution, and when it is completed, the Communists rule. And that's exactly what happened. And he says it's because the Communists know better and they understand how things work, etc. Etc. And of course, all this is going to happen and everybody's going to really be very, very happy. And as soon as human nature, as soon as the workers take over and build the state, as soon as that happens, why human nature is going to get along perfectly. if not perfectly, almost perfectly. He believed that human nature could be changed, and pretty soon you'd really be excited to get up and work for the state. So much more could be said.
Alex McFarland: Exactly. Folks, as we get toward this election, just in roughly three weeks, You've got to understand that socialism has never worked. In 1917, Vladimir Lenin said, socialism is the necessary foundation that must be laid on which we build communism. So it's not. Yeah, it is a toxin that will only grow. By the way, in my book, I wrote a book called the Assault on How to Defend Our Nation Before it's too late. By 1900, folks, 8, 0, 80 times socialism had been tried in American communities. By 1900 and 80 times, it was quickly abandoned. Zion, Illinois and NewSong Harmony, Indiana, Fayetteville, North Carolina. There were places where socialistic communities were tried. At best, there were disgruntled, people. And a few times there were actually some riots and murders. So socialism has been tried. It never works. You mentioned their very famous quote by Margaret Thatcher, socialism is great till you run out of other people's money. Dennis Prager, whom we've interviewed, Dennis Prager said socialism spends the money that capitalism generates.
Dave Williams: It has to.
Alex McFarland: Yeah, yeah. I mean, because socialism is based on a finite pie. And like you. Well said, you know, where are you when the pie plate is empty? the other thing, and I want you to speak to that. You know, humans, God loves the world, so much so that he sent his son. But humans have a sin nature. And don't you think, this belief that we can usher in a, ah, man made utopia, it ignores human nature? don't you think it ignores the fallenness and the depravity of we humans?
Dave Williams: I, have a chapter entitled what Marx Got Wrong and Moody Got Right. And of course, that's the nub of it. The simple fact is this, Moody thought that we had a sinful nature that needed to be redeemed. Karl Marx, there was no redemption. You redeem yourself and you can do whatever you need to do until you are redeemed. But if not, we'll kill you if you don't fall in line. Here's one of the most amusing things is communism bases everything on oppression. Okay? You have two classes. You have the oppressed and you have the oppressors. Isn't that interesting? If you lift the oppression, get away from God. Abolition of the family. Very clearly. Abolition of all truth and laws and then make new ones. If you begin that, philosophy, what do you do? You oppress people. If you're, if they are found with, with a Bible, you, of course, make sure that they, are put to death or the Bible is burned in communist countries. so oppression is supposed to cure people of being oppressed. I want to emphasize also that in all of this, by the way, and I have to quote Churchill, the great vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of blessings. The great virtue of socialism is the equal distribution of misery.
Alex McFarland: Oh, hey, with that, we've got to wrap up. Dr. Lutzer, I am so grateful for you. The book, Marx and Moody, is it published by Moody Press?
Dave Williams: Perhaps it is, but you can just get it on Amazon. Amazon right now.
Alex McFarland: Two contemporaries, two gospels, two tombstones, one choice. You must read it, folks. You must read it. Marx and Moody, the brand new work by the esteemed theologian and thinker Dr. Erwin Lutzer. Sir, thank you for being with us today on the American Family Radio Network.
Dave Williams: Thank you, folks.
Alex McFarland: Alex McFarland here. May God bless you. Remember First Corinthians 15:58. Your labor in the Lord is not in vain. You can make a difference. Stay bold. Stand for truth.
Alex McFarland: Well, good morning Everybody. Alex McFarland here. What an honor to be sitting in for Jeff Schrieve on Real Truth for today. We have a fantastic show, really a great show. Later on we're going to welcome just, someone who's been a great mentor in my life. His name is Dr. Erwin Lutzer. But I want to begin with, a little. First of all, I want to thank Jeff Sri for entrusting, me with the program while he is out for a day or two, just a very temporary, he's traveling a little bit. if you recognize my voice, it's probably because of a show called Exploring the Word. Bert Harper and myself, we've had the great privilege of doing Exploring the Word now in its 16th year on the American Family Radio Network. And by the way, Exploring the Word is heard Monday through Friday, 3pm Central Time. And we go through the Bible on Exploring the Word. Right now we're in Matthew 26. And, in 16 years, I believe Bert Harper and I have had the privilege of teaching through God's word in Its entirety, like at least three times, all of the Bible. And so we, we believe in the power of God's word, and we, believe that one of the things that's so important. Romans 12 talks about renewing our mind by the word of God. And the word renewing there really means to get it sorted out. You know, if you've ever. Let's say you. You, say Saturday, I'm going to clean up the garage. It's just, all in disarray. And, might take me all day, but I got to get it, cleaned up and sorted out. And at the end of that, you feel so good because everything's in its place. And, that's how it is with our beliefs. You know, imagine that you imagine a pyramid, and at the top of the pyramid are, behaviors. That's what you can see. But underneath that are beliefs, and then underneath that are values. Now, behavior is what we do, but what we do is driven by what we believe and how we think. but do you know, even 3,500 years before psychology really existed, Proverbs 23:7 says, as one thinks in their heart, so are they. As a man thinketh in his heart. There was a famous book years ago about this by a Christian writer named Jon Allen. As a man thinketh. But here's the thing. and I was sharing this at a parenting seminar. You know, we did a book, the, 21 toughest questions your kids will ask about God. And, you know, I'm talking about worldview and living for Christ and growing in a biblical worldview. And this mom came up during the break, and she said, look, I'm just trying to get my son to clean up his room. I said, okay, I hear you. Baby steps. But there are behaviors, things we do, but those are driven by beliefs, and beliefs are very much shaped by values. Now, hang with me here. beliefs are what we think is true. Values are what we think is important, right? So we've got values, we've got beliefs, and those manifest themselves in terms of behaviors, right? How do you influence those things? well, you could tell somebody to go to Sunday school and get in a small group, and that's a good thing. You could say, listen to American Family Radio. There's good Christian teaching. And we think that would be a good thing. But do you know to inform values, to influence beliefs and to shape behaviors? Psychologists, sociologists, and I would say disciplers would say, the number one way to influence these things is through relationships. Let's say the bottom of the pyramid. The foundation on which values, beliefs, behaviors rest are relationships. And I think Jesus modeled that. I mean, you think about it. Three years, his ministry, most important work ever to, assemble the disciples, carry out the ministry of Christ, Incarnation, die, rise again, give the great commission, establish the church, ascend to heaven and inaugurate the church age most important work ever because the souls of the human race hang in the balance. And Christ did all that in three years, but he really did it through relationships. And he invested himself in those apostles and they, you know, a dozen people turn the world upside down. Okay, so relationship is spelled T I m e time. I mean really, I truly believe discipleship is life on life transference. It really is. That's why it's important as a parent to spend time with your children really, and not just, watching a video on TV or something. I'm in a lot of restaurants and I'll see a family having a meal and everybody's on a mobile device. And so I want to encourage moms and dads to really set boundaries on technology use. And please, I know this is, I'm getting invasive here, but don't let your child just ubiquitously be wed to a, ah, smartphone or mobile device or a tablet. I mean kids, I'm m talking Christian kids are like sleeping in the bed with their cell phone and there's this separation anxiety that they don't want to be without their cell phone and listen. We've got to unplug not only to hear that still small voice and get in God's word, the Bible, but our brain needs downtime. We really do. And your youth are in cognitive development as they go through the teen years. And certainly, young men, even really many, of you may know this, but there is a time in late childhood adolescence that the female brain is actually developing faster than the male brain. And oftentimes little girls proficient readers before guys, now the guys catch up. But all through the childhood, late childhood, pre adolescence, the teenage years, late adolescence, young adulthood, our brains are developing. And the way that the neurons get wired up to one degree or another, it will follow us our whole life. And so it's imperative that, that we engage as parents and as Christian leaders. Maybe you're helping, with the youth or you're a Sunday school teacher or you're just that good neighbor, but it's life on life transference. And Bill Bright, the founder of Campus Crusade, he was actually my evangelism professor in seminary. I was so blessed. Bill Bright wrote a fantastic book called Witnessing Without Fear. And I would encourage you. That's one of those things that you need to own. You know, there's so many books that come in and out of our lives. There are a few that we just are keepers. by the way, on the subject of evangelism, I, want to recommend a couple of books. And by the way, my producer here, Jameson Hurst, you just text me or whisper in my ear if we've got, our very, very special guest. Okay, Jameson, but thanks. Listen to this. I want to recommend a couple of books on evangelism. One I mentioned Witnessing Without Fear by Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade, at Liberty University. In seminary, we had a personal evangelism class, and I was exceedingly blessed. Our teacher was Bill Bright. And Bill Bright had been a real introvert. And he said he was kind of shy, introverted, but he got saved. And he and his wife Vonnet, they started Campus Crusade. Of course, very famously, Josh McDowell was a part of Campus Crusade. Still is, but Josh is retired now. But, at one time, oh, golly, half a million full time missionaries and volunteers. Campus Crusade for Christ was a global movement. And of course, they famously did the Jesus film, which is still touching hundreds of languages around the world. Bill Bright was a candy maker. Interestingly, you know, had a, had a candy business, but he became passionate that everybody needed Jesus. But he was, he was kind of quiet and introverted. But in his book Witnessing Without Fear, which again is a classic, he said, success in witnessing is sharing the gospel, in the power and leading of Jesus Christ and just leaving the results up to God. And he realized that you and I, we don't have to grow the church now. We are to be Christ ambassadors. You know, Second Corinthians, Chapter 5, Second Corinthians 5:20, says, we are ambassadors for Christ. We are to be a witness and a representative. But it's God that does the saving. God builds the church. That's Matthew 16:18. Jesus said, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Isn't that good? Jesus builds the church. It's not on our shoulders to do it. We don't have to do that. But Bill Bright was my evangelism professor and it was wonderful. And he wrote a little booklet called, you know, not Steps to Peace with God. That was Billy Graham, the Four Spiritual Laws. Bill Bright wrote the Four Spiritual Laws. Anyway, his son, Brad Bright is a friend. And Brad told me one time, he said that Class at Liberty, was probably the last college class that Bill Bright taught. And I was just so blessed to take evangelism under Bill Bright. I recommend his book Witnessing Without Fear, another book that I really want to recommend. It's a classic and this was very influential in the life of Billy Graham. From what I understand. the Master Plan of Evangelism by Robert E. Coleman. C O L E M A N Master Plan of Evangelism. It is just brilliant. And let me just say to all the churches and pastors listening, in the Robert Coleman book, which, it's a small book, it's not a huge book. I mean, you could read it in an hour or less. But he talks. It's a brilliant strategy based on Jesus about investing yourself in a small group of people who invest themselves. In groups of people who invest themselves. And it's really kind of multiplication and delegation outwardly. And, it has worked. I think that book has probably been in print for five or six decades. I saw a new copy the other day. It's got kind of a modernized cover, but the content is still the same. It's just phenomenal. The Master Plan of Evangelism by Robert Coleman. It's just a very inexpensive little book. But if your church were to implement it, I can promise you it will be incredibly, incredibly fruitful. all of that. To say this. I'm going to quote Josh McDowell. Josh McDowell said, Disciples are not mass produced. They're handmade. One life at a time. And see, that's what we're called to do. There are behaviors. That's what we see. But beneath it, inside every human, there are beliefs and values. Beliefs are what we think is true. Values are what we think is important. And the best way to influence, inform, shape, correct those things is through relationship. I mean, really m. God uses people. And in the lives of people. And if you're a born again believer, you are the beneficiary of people who have invested in you. And as a born again believer, we have the great privilege and oh my goodness, what a privilege it is to invest in others. You know, I think about those God moments that I, had an encounter or a relationship with people. Many, of them are in heaven now. But I think about the people that shaped my life. And I'm, who I am because of Jesus, but because of those who invested in me as well. And God has given you the privilege of investing in others. Well, hey, Alex McFarland here. Our real truth for today. Stay tuned. We've got A brief break. We're going to come back more on the American Family Radio Network. A very special guest. Stay tuned.
: Hi, I'm Pastor Jeff Schrieve with Real Truth for Today. Hey, did you know that this content is listener supported? Without people like you, this podcast would not exist. That's why we need you. A generous monthly gift of any amount will help sustain American Family Radio and specifically this podcast, Real Truth for Today. So please consider becoming a monthly financial partner today by visiting afr.com.
Jeff Chamblee: This is Real Truth for Today. Podcasts of the program are available on the podcast [email protected] now back to Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
Alex McFarland: Alex McFarland here. Very honored to be sitting in for Jeff Schrieve on Real Truth for today. In that first segment, we were talking about influencing beliefs, behaviors and values. by the way, let me give a little, shout out to the COVID the Billy Graham Conference center in western North Carolina. I don't know if you've ever been to the COVID but we just think it's one of the greatest places in the world. I mean, beautiful, beautiful facilities, the beautiful backdrop of the mountains and everything. Incredible food, oh my goodness, the food is unreal. but you truly feel the presence of God. Billy Graham, the great evangelist, I mean, one of my heroes of all heroes. But Billy and Ruth Graham, they prayer walked over those hillsides and you really do, feel the spirit of God there. Well, next summer in July, I'll be there teaching. It's been my great joy for more than 20 summers to go to the Cove And I believe a visit to the COVID is something you'll just never forget, really. Now, next summer I'm going to be there teaching the book of Romans and the way they do. There are weekend like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then there are Monday through Friday that are longer. Now the Monday through Friday, the ibt, that's called intensive Bible training. So, what a privilege. I was there, this, this past summer I was there with Gary Habermas teaching on the Resurrection. And then the summer before that I was at the Cove with j, Warner Wallace. Next summer I'll be at the COVID the Billy Graham center, teaching the book of Romans. Will Graham asked me to do Romans, which I love, one of my absolute favorite books. And then, that's the three day Friday, Saturday, Sunday, then the ibt, the five day. I'll be doing a deep dive on biblical worldview. And with me will be Loren Green of Fox News, just a devout Christian and a best selling Author also Dillon Burroughs. Dillon was a writer for many years for a Dr. Jon Ankerberg. And Dillon is a Dallas seminary grad. And so for the ibt, the five day intensive Bible training, we'll be doing a thorough, look at what is a biblical worldview. And the website is thecove.org, t h e c o v e thecove.org Angie and I would love to see you there next summer. And if you come to the Billy Graham center and we together will get an into God's word, you won't be disappointed. You won't be disappointed. Well, right now, what a joy. you know, I mentioned in the first segment that we are the, summation of those we have followed after those that have invested in us and shaped our lives and the role models that we have looked up to. And really, in my life, there have been a couple of people that absolutely shaped who I am, one of whom, of course, is Josh McDowell. But the other who is, in so many ways, is, the Christian minister that I would aspire to be. His name is Dr. Erwin Lutzer, and for many years, the pastor of Moody Church in Chicago, one of the world's great churches. Prolific author, pastor, apologist, and biblical worldview voice. And, he's been so gracious to make himself accessible over the years, and he's with us now. Dr. Lutzer, welcome to the American Family Radio Network.
Dave Williams: Alec, I'm so glad to be with you. we were just at the Billy Graham Cove. I taught both a pastor's seminar and the regular seminar, and so I know that, it's a tremendously good experience, and I'm so glad that you're encouraging your people to join the COVID Yes. Alex, how are you doing? I'm doing quite well. I'm very, very busy these days, but God is giving strength. And just so that your audience knows, I turned 85 the other day, so I keep going. And, just great to be with you.
Alex McFarland: Well, happy belated birthday. And I am thrilled that, the Lord has you busy in the service of the gospel, Dr. Lutzer.
Dave Williams: Well, yes, and I continue to get opportunities. I'm wondering if you have come across my new book entitled Marx and Moody.
Alex McFarland: no, I have not. I was thinking about, the book, the Church in Babylon. but I want to hear about that now. Marx and Moody. My goodness. You know, D.L. moody is one of my absolute heroes from church history. so I want to hear about this book, Marx and Moody. Tell us about it.
Dave Williams: About a year and a half or two ago, I was going to give a lecture at the grave of Karl Marx in London. I knew he was buried there. I wanted people to understand Marxism. As I was preparing the lecture, it dawned on me that he was a, contemporary of D.L. moody for 46 years. Furthermore, when Moody was preaching to large crowds of 20,000 people or more every night in London in the 1800s, during that time, Frederick Engels, who helped write the manifesto, attended a Moody meeting. And he wrote about it. And, of course, I quoted in the book. And then, as Engels was about to die, he was reminiscing, why is it that England didn't become communist after all? The Communist Manifesto had been published out there in England, in London for the first time in 1848. And he concluded it was because of the revivalism of people like Moody and Sankey, who was his choir leader and the dangerous aid of the Salvation Army. What he was saying is the roots were too Christian. Now, in the. In the manifesto, the very last sentence before the very last one, it says this. We do not hide our aims. We openly admit that in order to achieve our aims, we need a forcible overthrow of all existing conditions. So, anyway, that's exactly what happened, of course, in communist countries and still is happening. Now, what the book does is to, quickly give a survey of Marx's, life, his fascination with demonism, etc. And then the manifesto, I discuss what he got wrong. Then we also go to democratic socialism, one of the longest chapters in the book. And then the second part of the book, Moody. The life of Moody, is written by a professor who used to teach at, Moody Bible Institute, who studied Moody for many years. And for those listening who don't know who Moody is, Moody was the Billy Graham of the 1800s. So the point is, why is it Marx and Moody, two contemporaries, two gospels, two tombstones, and one choice? Why two tombstones? Well, at the end of the book, I take people to the tombstones of these two men and discuss their legacies and talk about our legacies as well. So that's a summary, and I am so glad I can mention this. I thought for sure by now, you would have had a copy, that we'd have sent you one. It's our fault, but we'll make sure to get one to you very quickly.
Alex McFarland: Oh, thank you. You know, I can't wait to read this book. And by the way, in all seriousness, Dr. Lutzer, I really don't know another apologist, theologian that has, really, as well as you, meshed, you know, where history was. I know you wrote about Hitler and the broken cross and, and then you've written so many things about the way that, history has these defining moments, and you've looked at past history and the contemporary world through the lens of biblical worldview. And, God has gifted you in that regard. And I know Marx and Moody, that is going to be a must read because, you know, Dr. Lutzer, we had 1200 teenagers in our eight summer camps this past summer. And, by God's grace, over 430 that came to faith in Christ. But, young people are very enamored with socialism right now, and I think they've just been wrongly taught in public education that, you know, socialism is some panacea to put food on everybody's table. So I'm thrilled that you've written this book and this, expose. You know, I knew Moody and Marx would have been contemporaries. Do you know, Dr. Lutzer, is there any, degree to which, Karl Marx would have been aware of DL Moody's preaching and the gospel message?
Dave Williams: Oh, he couldn't have helped it, even if he would have wanted to not be aware. Think of this. Moody is front page news in the London newspapers. Stenographers take down his sermons. They print them in the newspaper the next morning. And so he is famous, and Marx is working in the British Library and so forth, writing Das Kapital. By the way, my book does not deal with those books. it deals primarily with the Communist Manifesto and related documents. And you know, there are many people listening who don't know too much about the manifesto except things that they've heard. In my book, I frequently quoted, so that we get it accurate, the abolition of the family, the destruction of all morality and laws and so forth. But anyway, in answer to your question, absolutely would have. And after all, Engels, who helped write the manifesto, attended a Moody meeting and wrote a letter about it. Quite an extended letter, which of course I quote in the book. So obviously he would have known.
Alex McFarland: you know, you talk about D.L. moody, and, I love church history, and I've tried, my best to make people aware of great leaders that, should not be forgotten. You know, isn't it true, Dr. Lutzer? it's hard to overstate the impact of Dwight Leman moody in the 1800s. I mean, he truly was in a horse and buggy era. He was a global figure, wasn't he?
Dave Williams: He really was. And by the way, Moody Certainly knew about communism, if I might quote him. When there was labor unrest here in Chicago, Moody said, unless we evangelize, the leaven of communism is going to come here and bring about, a destruction. Actually, he talked about its devastation unless we evangelize. And the thing that people will discover about Moody in this book is this. He had a tremendous social conscience. In other words, he didn't. Wasn't merely interested in souls because he had a very humble, poor background. And, his mother sometimes had to farm some of the kids out during the winter. She loved them dearly, but couldn't put food on their table over there in Massachusetts at the time. And so Moody, I mean, he established here in Chicago centers for the poor to come and get food. At one time, he was looking after 800 families that, in addition to the Sunday school that had a thousand people, where none other than Abraham Lincoln stopped and spoke on his way to Washington to get inaugurated, because Moody had become so famous. And then the Moody Church, because nobody wanted these kids in 1864 that I had the privilege of, pastoring, even though it's in a different location. And so Moody, his impact is huge. And then Moody Bible Institute, he began a school for girls over in Northfield, Massachusetts. Who in the world thought of that? And there were about eight or ten different nations represented. And Moody delighted in the fact that there was such variety. He was so far ahead of his times. People don't understand at all. And that's why there's so much else I could say. But that's why this book, I think, is so important, not only to understand Marx, but to get a proper grasp of Moody.
Alex McFarland: Yes, exactly. And, you know, I think it's very inspiring. And like I've said, like in a horse and buggy era. I mean, Moody, from the time of his conversion to the time of his homegoing. I mean, he really was used by God to touch the world, wasn't he?
Dave Williams: He was. And the reason is because there's a man in Europe who said this to him. In England, his name doesn't come immediately to me, but, he said the world has yet to see what God can do in and through a man who is totally yielded to him.
Alex McFarland: Yes.
Dave Williams: And Moody said that those words were so burned on his mind that when he crossed, on a ship back to America, he could read them on the shipboards. I mean, they were. And he said, by the grace of God, he'd be that man. And I believe he was indeed.
Alex McFarland: Indeed, the Northville, Massachusetts, Campus. Do you know what they do there these days? Is that, ah, facility still in use?
Dave Williams: The facility recently is. A few years ago is in use. there's a Catholic organization that teaches the, I forget the name of it. It stresses the original text of the Bible and other books, and then also much of it is under the jurisdiction of those of us who established the Moody Center. I was on the board when all of this transition happened about six or eight years ago. It has a long checkered history and so forth, but, it has potential to be a place where people can still go and study. It's not that now for us, but nonetheless, we, we. I say we, not me. But the organization owns his birthplace, the place that he died, and most importantly, his grave. You must understand that Moody and his wife are buried there on a hill where he used to preach and students used to gather around him.
Alex McFarland: Dr. Lutzer, forgive me. We've got a break. We got to pull away. Stay tuned, folks. More with Erwin Lutzer, author of the book on Marx and Moody and so much more. Stay tuned. We're back after this brief break on the American Family Radio Network.
Jeff Chamblee: If you'd like to contact Pastor Jeff, email pastor [email protected] now back to Real Truth for today with Pastor Jeff Schrieve.
: Welcome back.
Alex McFarland: Good morning, everybody. Alex McFarland sitting in for Jeff Schrieve. And, I'll be live this afternoon, good Lord willing, on exploring the word heard throughout the American Family radio network. 3:00pm Central, 4:00pm Eastern, and the time zone of your choice. And, what a joy, to sit in for Jeff Schrieve. And, you know, when I do these guest hosting segments, I call, up a lot of great friends and, oh, my goodness, Angie would concur. Erwin and Rebecca Lutzer are just heroes to us. I've known Dr. Lutzer for more than 20 years. When I was, at Focus on the Family under James Dobson, one of the very first things I was out there, this was back in, in 2004, and Dr. Dobson said to me, can you get Erwin Lutzer to come here? And we did events out there at Focus on the Family. And of course, Dr. Lutzer graciously came just whenever I would ask and was on the radio with Dr. Dobson. And we've done many conferences together over the years, and he's a prolific author and just a stellar representative of the gospel and the biblical worldview. And, Dr. Lutzer, I know I speak for millions of people, but I Just want to say for you and Rebecca, thank you for being the people that you are and for standing so faithfully for Christ. And, you've shaped many lives, my own included, and I commend you.
Dave Williams: Well, thank you so much. And I say the same to you and Angie and, the fact that your impact continues. And I'm a lot older than you are, so it's wonderful to see the second generation coming up. And of course, all of us are getting older, aren't we? But nonetheless, we're wanting to stand strong until the very end.
Alex McFarland: Indeed, indeed. we're talking about your new book, which, folks, I urge you, seriously, every Erwin Lutzer book you need to own and have in your library. And I really mean that. hundreds of books pass through our lives. Everything Dr. Lutzer writes is a keeper. I mean, it really is. And he wrote this book. And there's another one that I want to talk about called the Eclipse of God. But right now, Marx and Moody and Dr. Lutzer, the DSA, the Democrat Socialists of America. You know, I'm very surprised at the ascendancy, very concerned about it. in light of your research on Marx and Moody, what's your take on this Democrat, the dsa? I'm very surprised. Not only that it's come about, but the visibility. what do you feel about this, Dr. Lutzer?
Dave Williams: Well, first of all, as an overarching statement, I will say this, that it's not a surprise that it becomes very, very popular. Why people judge it by its promises, not its results. So isn't it wonderful? I begin my chapter, by the way, saying the dream is free. The bill comes later. The simple fact is that you cannot have a socialistic country that is wealthy. You cannot build wealth on it. And I explained several different reasons for this, by the way. Alec, have you ever noticed this, that the Democratic socialists, they always talk about dividing up the money. They never talk about making money. because strictly speaking, you can't, you know, you. You take a pie and you say, oh, we're going to divvy it up. Well, the fact is that you may divvy it up, but when the plate is empty, the plate is empty. How are you going to fill it? So all of that, one of the ways, if parents are listening, and I'm sure hundreds, and if not thousands are, and you want to help explain to your child democratic socialism, this is one way to do it. Not the only way. I suggest other ways as well. But let's suppose a professor in a classroom Says, you know, it's not fair that some of you get better grades than others. Some of you are more intelligent, some of you have more time. Some of the kids are under pressure. At the end of the semester, what I'm going to do is I'm going to average all of the grades, each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Those of you with lower grades, you need the help of someone else. And so we're going to do this collectively. This is the collective, and we're going to make sure that everyone gets a piece of the, educational pie in this way. Now, does anybody think that that's going to motivate students to study hard? I don't think so.
Alex McFarland: Not likely.
Dave Williams: Not likely. The simple fact is that, Karl Marx, by the way, says that when socialism is implemented, you know, I'll be able to do one thing today, another tomorrow, rear cattle in the afternoon, sit and, discuss philosophy in the evening. Each will do whatever he wants, and the needs of others are going to be met. No wonder it is so popular. But the simple fact is it runs out of money. As Margaret Thatcher so correctly said, pretty soon you run out of other people's money, and it doesn't meet people's needs. People say, you know, oh, capitalism is based on greed. Socialism is based on need. I wonder if the person who said that has ever been to a, socialistic country. It doesn't meet people's needs. The stores are empty. What you have to do is to say, oh, this store has rice today. And pretty soon there's a lineup of people to get rice. Why? Let's think through a few things. If you peg the price of, rent, for example, and, if a mayor of a city or a state, you know, governor says, we're going to peg the price of rent, you can't raise rent. Is anybody going to invest in rental property? Of course not.
Alex McFarland: Of course not.
Dave Williams: As a result, it stagnates everything because the thing that generates wealth is competition. The other thing that people don't realize about, socialism is this. Socialism believes that the rich, they became rich because they stole it from the poor. And as a result of that philosophy, America has to be criticized severely because it's wealthy. And because it's wealthy, it means it stole the money and made other nations poor. Now, this is not correct, but nonetheless, that's out there, and people have to understand that that's what they're talking about.
Alex McFarland: Sure.
Dave Williams: And by the way, in the book, I have an entire chapter of Course. And we're talking about the book Marx and Moody. I have an entire chapter on how Marxism came to America. And, Alex, I know you know the name Antonio Gramsci. He's the guy who wrote the paper on how it had to come into America incrementally. Now, I quote him as saying that churches can be used to bring in Marxism. And you know how they can take the words of Jesus, who said that the rich find it difficult to enter into the kingdom of heaven and so forth. And where Jesus is critical of wealth and they can apply it and m use Jesus to promote the idea that wealth is evil. And therefore what we have to do is to take other people's wealth from them because they're not going to give it up voluntarily and give it to other people, which is, of course, socialism. And here's where discernment is so important. Okay? The reason that Jesus said, ah, that is that wealth can very easily take the place of God. And he warned against that. Jesus did. Jesus didn't say that. He didn't say to the rich man, oh, you stole this money from others. But nonetheless, that's the way it's interpreted in the socialistic thing. By the way, you caught me at a time, as you well know, I have so much to say in the manifesto, people may wonder, is there a difference between communism and socialism? In the manifesto, they are used interchangeably, but in one important place, and at least one in the Communist Manifesto, Marx says this. The socialists bring about the revolution. And by the way, Marx says we have to make the revolution as violent as possible. Yeah, yeah. I quote him as saying that now here's the thing. You have all of these people who are working toward the destruction and the stealing of property, because that's what it takes in order for the state to own it. So he says, socialists bring forth the revolution, and when it is completed, the Communists rule. And that's exactly what happened. And he says it's because the Communists know better and they understand how things work, etc. Etc. And of course, all this is going to happen and everybody's going to really be very, very happy. And as soon as human nature, as soon as the workers take over and build the state, as soon as that happens, why human nature is going to get along perfectly. if not perfectly, almost perfectly. He believed that human nature could be changed, and pretty soon you'd really be excited to get up and work for the state. So much more could be said.
Alex McFarland: Exactly. Folks, as we get toward this election, just in roughly three weeks, You've got to understand that socialism has never worked. In 1917, Vladimir Lenin said, socialism is the necessary foundation that must be laid on which we build communism. So it's not. Yeah, it is a toxin that will only grow. By the way, in my book, I wrote a book called the Assault on How to Defend Our Nation Before it's too late. By 1900, folks, 8, 0, 80 times socialism had been tried in American communities. By 1900 and 80 times, it was quickly abandoned. Zion, Illinois and NewSong Harmony, Indiana, Fayetteville, North Carolina. There were places where socialistic communities were tried. At best, there were disgruntled, people. And a few times there were actually some riots and murders. So socialism has been tried. It never works. You mentioned their very famous quote by Margaret Thatcher, socialism is great till you run out of other people's money. Dennis Prager, whom we've interviewed, Dennis Prager said socialism spends the money that capitalism generates.
Dave Williams: It has to.
Alex McFarland: Yeah, yeah. I mean, because socialism is based on a finite pie. And like you. Well said, you know, where are you when the pie plate is empty? the other thing, and I want you to speak to that. You know, humans, God loves the world, so much so that he sent his son. But humans have a sin nature. And don't you think, this belief that we can usher in a, ah, man made utopia, it ignores human nature? don't you think it ignores the fallenness and the depravity of we humans?
Dave Williams: I, have a chapter entitled what Marx Got Wrong and Moody Got Right. And of course, that's the nub of it. The simple fact is this, Moody thought that we had a sinful nature that needed to be redeemed. Karl Marx, there was no redemption. You redeem yourself and you can do whatever you need to do until you are redeemed. But if not, we'll kill you if you don't fall in line. Here's one of the most amusing things is communism bases everything on oppression. Okay? You have two classes. You have the oppressed and you have the oppressors. Isn't that interesting? If you lift the oppression, get away from God. Abolition of the family. Very clearly. Abolition of all truth and laws and then make new ones. If you begin that, philosophy, what do you do? You oppress people. If you're, if they are found with, with a Bible, you, of course, make sure that they, are put to death or the Bible is burned in communist countries. so oppression is supposed to cure people of being oppressed. I want to emphasize also that in all of this, by the way, and I have to quote Churchill, the great vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of blessings. The great virtue of socialism is the equal distribution of misery.
Alex McFarland: Oh, hey, with that, we've got to wrap up. Dr. Lutzer, I am so grateful for you. The book, Marx and Moody, is it published by Moody Press?
Dave Williams: Perhaps it is, but you can just get it on Amazon. Amazon right now.
Alex McFarland: Two contemporaries, two gospels, two tombstones, one choice. You must read it, folks. You must read it. Marx and Moody, the brand new work by the esteemed theologian and thinker Dr. Erwin Lutzer. Sir, thank you for being with us today on the American Family Radio Network.
Dave Williams: Thank you, folks.
Alex McFarland: Alex McFarland here. May God bless you. Remember First Corinthians 15:58. Your labor in the Lord is not in vain. You can make a difference. Stay bold. Stand for truth.
Alex McFarland welcomes Dr. Erwin Lutzer, longtime pastor of Moody Church, author, and Christian apologist, to Real Truth for Today to discuss his new book, Marx and Moody. Lutzer compares the lives and legacies of Karl Marx and evangelist D. L. Moody, exploring their contrasting worldviews and visions for society. They examine the history of Marxism and socialism, the influence of Christianity on America, and the dangers of pursuing a man-made utopia while ignoring human nature and sin. Lutzer also highlights Moody’s commitment to evangelism, compassion for the poor, and the transforming power of the gospel. This conversation challenges listeners to understand the ideas shaping today’s culture, exercise biblical discernment, and consider the lasting impact of the beliefs they embrace.
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